Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - Nothing Phone (1) Review and Explaining JWST’s First Images!

Episode Date: July 15, 2022

This week Marques and Andrew discuss the Nothing Phone (1) now that the full review is finally out! Then David chats with Dr. Stefanie Milam from NASA as she walks us through the first images from the James Webb Space Telescope! If you haven't had a chance to check them out yet we recommend doing so ASAP as they're stunning. Then we wrap it all up with a few trivia questions. Hope you enjoy! Links: Nothing Phone review: https://bit.ly/3Rya2aC James Webb website: https://webb.nasa.gov/ Twitters: https://twitter.com/wvfrm https://twitter.com/mkbhd https://twitter.com/andymanganelli https://twitter.com/adamlukas17 https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wvfrmpodcast/ Shop the merch: shop.mkbhd.com Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Uncertainty. Self-doubt. Stressing about not knowing where to start. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Word art. Sorry, we have laugh lovers. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today.

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. Yo, what's good? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast, people of the internet. We're your hosts.

I'm Marques. And I'm Andrew. I almost got that wrong. In today's episode, we're going to talk about a bunch of stuff. I kind of love that we're going to talk about the James Webb Space Telescope first images that are sort of taken over the internet. They did take over the internet. It's not always positive things that take over the internet, but a new frontier of deep

space imagery is a beautiful thing to take over the internet. We also got David to sit down with Dr. Stephanie Milam of NASA to talk about some of the first images we're seeing out of JWST, and it's fascinating. So stay tuned for that. But first, we do want to correct a little bit of our trivia from last week,

right? We have some Nexus Q fact correction. Yeah, so we got the answer wrong last week in our trivia wrap up. Shout out to at Steve Aguay and at Yari Jalouf, I believe. They kindly corrected us. The Nexus Q came out in 2012, not 2011. So Andrew has a final score of 13 to Marquez's 17.

We had to take a point away from Andrew and give it to Marquez. So now Marquez won by a larger margin. Not only was I wrong, but you still said the correct answer afterwards. So just like, this is really kicking me when I'm down. You know, it's Nexus Q trivia. You can't always, you know, hang your hat on that. So I'm just happy to be getting that one right. Still winning onto a new season. There will be more trivia later today. But let's talk about the, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done a lot of live events and kind of rated how they are. And we had our first live event from Nothing, the new phone company. And I think we have to talk about it and the phone as well. What was their first event?

I guess they may have had a headphones event, but we usually talk about smartphone bigger events like that. And this was clearly their first. It was slated on, was that Tuesday? Tuesday, I think. Any thoughts right off the bat? My thoughts are the event was bad. You could see what they were going for. They had a very casual vibe, and you could see're going for like the anti-establishment vibe the more like lifestyle

versus more like in your face tech spec kind of thing it but at the same time like when we you talk about apple keynotes being like the gold standard and everyone goes oh they're so corporate it's always the same people on stage blah blah but they are uh amazing at capturing your attention and stringing it along through new products and devices and services and features and things like that and this event i just didn't do that it was it was casual it was fine i'm sure nothing fans were gonna love it either way but i think we more importantly now also have the reviews of the actual phone yes and i think that's what we want to go over the shining spot of the entire event was clearly when um they showed shop.mkbhd.com on the screen we did not know that

was coming at all that caught us by surprise um but at the same time with how surprised we were there i realized later that that's also when they mentioned the refresh rate of the phone that I completely missed, which to me felt like the overarching theme of this is I missed all of the specs or they just didn't say them. I didn't feel like I left that event knowing much more about the phone. Yeah. Well, now we have it. The review's out. I guess this is a chance to catch up on everything you want to know. Literally ask me anything. I've had the phone for over a week. I've been using it daily and liking a lot of it, not liking some parts of it. I want to start at price because to me, that is how I can form my opinion on this through the price. And it's the thing I've been dying to know the most for this. I think most people do. So just a precursor, it doesn't initially look to be going on sale in the U S so this is a great British pounds.

We have our starting price is 399 great British pounds, very similar to us dollars, but that's the official number. Um, that by the way, will only be in black and that will be the eight gigs of Ram, 128 gig version only in black, only in, only in only in black that yeah so they showed off the white one confused already showed off the white one everywhere you can't get that at the base price 399 great british pounds baseline nothing phone okay you can bump up to eight gigs of ram 256 gigs of storage for 50 extra pounds and for 100 extra pounds 12 gigs of ram and 256 gigs of storage okay so we've got 399 $399, $449, $499. So all under $500.

Correct. I think that is, under $500 is a great range to be in. It's still, you know, we call this mid-range. I think it's really safe to call this mid-range. I know we've argued about that. People have argued about that a lot. But this is mid-range to budget. It is clearly not an upper high-end flagship,

and it is also, to me, clearly not going for the lowest possible price. It is firmly in the mid-range, and I think it's smart. I think they literally just decided to target a price and build a phone around that price. For sure. Which I say in the review.

Yeah, so in terms of the chipset, we knew that already, but I'm trying to, where would you say the Yeah, so in terms of the chipset, we knew that already, but I'm trying to, where would you say the sacrifices are made in terms of this? Because if you have a price under 500 and we already know that they focus so much on design and the glyph lights on the back and stuff like that,

that's going to take a chunk out of your margins right there. So they obviously had to sacrifice some other stuff sure besides just the chipset which we already know yeah okay so the chipset is the this the snapdragon 778g plus they worked specifically with qualcomm on it to enable things like wireless charging reverse wireless charging but it is an older chipset it's not the new snapdragon 7 gen 1 but i think they'll argue it's a more stable, reliable chipset. The sacrifice, if you want to use that word, is really that it doesn't have the headroom

of the ultra high-end, the big title gaming stuff, the heavy multitasking. I still think it's a very smooth phone most of the time, which is really nice. And you do see that a lot in mid-range phones around this price so the chip isn't really letting me down anyway yeah if i was expecting a flagship this wouldn't be that but it is it is pretty good it is pretty good yeah i mean looking at these

specs some of the other things i'm seeing um i mean you still have 45 milliamp hour battery right um 4500 it is 33 watt charging wired and that's what is not great it's it turns it actually turns out to be fine i know the number is low on paper but i found myself like not like annoyed with how slow it was charging to me when it comes to fast charging i would argue it's the thing i care about the least. If this has wireless charging and even slow wireless charging, I will be topped off pretty much the entire day through that by just having one wireless charger at my desk and one on my nightstand. Same.

No part of me is ever worried about this, I think. So it has 15 watt wireless charging. Yeah, that's totally fine. It's fine. I'm not worried about that. Yeah. 45 million power battery is fantastic. Pretty good, yeah, for a phone of this size. So it's a I'm not worried about that. Yeah. 45 million power battery is fantastic. Pretty good.

Yeah. I think that's great. So it's a six and a half inch screen. I talk about it in the review video, but my battery life is typically like one normal day. Like I end the day with less than 20% battery getting into the lower teens. So I'm like not quite comfortably ending the day with a full, like one full battery, but I don't have like 40% or anything like that. So it's a one-day battery. Yeah, it's not anything to write home about.

This is the thing. In the review, I have a couple things closer to the end that are not really that great or that bad. The speakers, like they get kind of loud, but they're not that great, like not worth writing home about. The battery life is another one of those things.'s it's not like super fast charging or anything like it's it's fine but it's okay you don't want to miss on paper so at least it's not a miss um and there's other things like haptics that were to me around average like not bad they're definitely not the soft mushy

bad vibration motor but they were a little bit awkward with typing on the keyboard and a little bit much sometimes. So somewhere in the middle. Okay. So it's just not that like perfectly fine polish that we're seeing in the thousand dollar smartphones out there. Um, okay. I, I ultimately, I think that sounds pretty solid. There's one thing he mentioned in there that I was kind of confused about. And this is Carl Pei talking about how it's connecting better to third party features, I guess. I forget if he said apps or features and he mentioned like connecting to your Tesla and just like kind of toss that out there without anything. And we all just said, isn't that just what the app does? Yeah. So there's a couple interesting ecosystem things that they threw out there. Now, nothing makes headphones already. And so you would expect

the nothing headphones to work the best, work great with the nothing phone. But the same thing kind of happens when you plug in AirPods or when you connect AirPods via Bluetooth, it puts them up in the quick settings and it tries to like act like they're part of the ecosystem, which is kind of cool. Now the Tesla thing, I have a Tesla, I have the app installed, I signed in.

It didn't work. It's in the experimental feature section, but they were basically showing that you could also add like vehicle controls into your phone's quick settings. So if I wanted to unlock my car from outside, you know,

a hundred feet away in the parking lot, I could open the app and do that. But now it could be like one swipe down in the quick settings. So if I wanted to unlock my car from outside, you know, a hundred feet away in the parking lot, I could open the app and do that. But now it could be like one swipe down in the quick settings. It'd be cool, but it didn't work. It didn't work. It didn't work. So cool idea, but yeah, I'm still waiting for that. I also wonder, do you know, this is a random question, but do you know what your quick settings are off the top of your head? Yeah. I always have internet like wifi connectivity up there. I always have internet, like Wi-Fi connectivity up there. I always have auto rotate, flashlight, and typically Bluetooth is the last one. And the airplane mode is a swipe away.

I was going to say, like, would you wind up replacing any of those if you had the option for your Tesla there? Or would you be okay with the, at this point, you're swiping twice. Yeah. And then how far away is that from going into the app? You know, I might put something like starting the charge in the quick settings. Basically, the only thing I really use my phone for is the Bluetooth key. So when I walk up to the cart on locks, all the other remote stuff I manage,

I was going to dive into the app anyway to change the charge limit or tell it to wait till off-peak hours to charge, stuff like that. So I might have added that it was just like it would have been cool if it worked and i could actually try it but it just didn't it didn't have you tried it with airpods i haven't there there was did you see the photo going around of how in the event it showed carl's airpods connected to airpods yeah maybe you know everyone was making fun of him but maybe that was was the ultimate Easter egg that he knew people were going to. I think he's just appealing to what he knows most people have and want. You know, I,

I have to give credit here. That is not something I recognized. Um, or did they mention that in the keynote or is that just something in the reviewers guide? No, they went over a little bit of the like ecosystem thing where you can build your own ecosystem. I think it's cool that they're open to working with other companies. Like we don't see that a lot with a lot of other smartphones, or at least like, I mean, clearly I'm sure nothing would prefer if you use nothing headphones, but being a little more open into the default system settings of accepting other things, I think is kind of awesome. I think I would characterize it as nothing doing extra work on their end to make it look like they're working with other companies. Okay. I think I would characterize it as nothing doing extra work on their end

to make it look like they're working with other companies. Okay. I don't think Apple is giving them any sort of special features or access. Well, yeah, but I appreciate that there's a company that recognizes there are other companies out there. True, cool, that's true. One more thing to wrap this up.

I think learning all of this specifically and after all that, I'm pretty proud of my assumption that this felt like the updated Beats headphones of smartphones. Do you agree with that now looking back? Yeah. Okay. So here's how I ended the video. Okay. Nothing started with a pair of headphones and our eventual conclusion about them was, all right, they sound okay. They're not particularly focused on performance, but they do have a really distinctive design. So like solid user experience, but it's focused on design.

And then they came out with a phone and it was the exact same story. Not really too focused on performance, but a pretty solid user experience and a really distinctive design. So to me, that's the story of the phone. That's kind of also the Beats story. But then when you look at the rest of like, all right, now what's nothing gonna make? They can keep building their ecosystem. Is it a tablet?

Is it, oh, I didn't go to NFTs. But I went to like, is it a smart speaker? Whatever else they decide to make, it will probably be along the same lines. Probably won't be focused on specs or performance, but it'll have a solid user experience, but it better have a distinctive, cool design. And that's what nothing's all about.

What would you, if you could pick what nothing would do next, what would it be? In that mantra? I think those are the two I was most curious about, actually. Smart speaker would be kind of interesting. I like that. And I think tablet would be cool. Tablet's hard.

I think smart speaker in a, like, transparent design would look so sweet. That'd be dope. I would like to see that. I think now I want that. Considering how good the headphones looked, and headphones really typically don't look that good, I would be very curious. Maybe they make over-ear headphones or something.

Who knows? Over-ear would be cool. I want the nothing home one. That would be sick. Okay. I dig that. Well, I'm sure Carl's listening, so we'll see. I want a stake in that.

Thank you. You're welcome. If you're interested in like all the rest of the deeper stuff about this phone, like the camera, like the uh performance 120 hertz display it's not ltpo but it's 60 to 120 hertz all that stuff definitely watch the full review it should be up by the time you're listening to this so check that out for sure but that's the nothing phone it's finally out and in the real world and exists and we can we can stop making puns i'm so happy i don't have to like

accidentally make the pun every time it makes me very excited for the future i like how like half an hour ago you were like we're gonna go talk about nothing's event and how they did nothing and i just put my head down i didn't walk to the podcast studio after that yeah um all right let's do the first trivia question of season two. Season two. So the score is officially zero, zero. Yeah. So how do you want to start this?

Who gets the first? Yeah. Hold up a number behind your back. One of us guesses it. I don't know if there's a better way to. We could do that. We could do that later when we do the answers. Yeah.

I was going to say the answer's got to wait for later. Okay. All right. But season two begins with new music. So what was ask.com originally known as? Okay. I remember that. Yeah, me too.

I was going to say, I hope I'm not showing my age. No, I remember the old search engines. I have some old search engine stories too, but we'll get to that later. Okay. All right, we'll be right back. We'll be right back. BetMGM, authorized gaming partner of the NBA,

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We tried to make it so we were explaining the images for you audio listeners out there. If you have an opportunity, whether it's right now or when you park your car or something like that, definitely look up the James Webb Space Telescope images because they're freaking amazing. And if you're not already using them as your wallpaper, you probably will be soon. So thank you for coming on today. Can you start off by stating your name and what you do at NASA? Sure. I'm Stephanie Milam. I'm the Deputy Project Scientist for Planetary Science on the James Webb Space Telescope. Awesome. How long have you been working on JWST for? About 10 years now. It's been a long time. That's wild. Does it feel crazy to have it finally start taking photos

up there um it's it is such an amazing feeling to finally get images down and know that science is beginning um it's been a long time coming so getting to this point has it's such a relief and also it's extremely exciting. Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, today we did a prior podcast with you guys actually about JWST and how it works and when it was going to go up and what it was going to take pictures of and all that stuff. So this is sort of a follow-up kind of podcast that covers the first photos that it took.

So kind of wanted to go through all of those and have you maybe explain like what we're seeing, why it's important, all of that kind of stuff. Absolutely. So I sort of figured that maybe we would go through the images as they were presented by NASA on the presentation. Okay, so the first one is going to be that deep field photo. Yeah, I love this photo. I understand why this was the first one released, letting the president actually release it. Because this photo or this image in and of itself actually just completely demonstrates what the James Webb Space Telescope was designed and built to do. We set out to study the first stars and galaxies,

really study and probe that, you know, infant era of the universe. And what you can see in this image is the first step towards approaching that limit. We see, what you see primarily in the main image is there's a series of galaxies, sort of the bright white ones kind of, you know, streaked across the center of the image. And these galaxies are so large and so massive, they're actually acting like a lens. And so they're pulling the light from all the distant galaxies behind it up to a more visible realm. And so that's why some of these galaxies look like they're actually being pulled and smeared or streaked across the image. It's because they're being pulled. The light is actually being pulled in that manner.

So this is something Einstein told us that was going to happen, and we see it all the time. And what you can see in the web image is a perfect demonstration of what galactic lensing is actually all about. Okay, so that's cosmic lensing or galactic lensing, right? Yeah.

And just to help listeners and viewers understand, that's basically like there are galaxies that are so massive that their gravity is pulling the light from the galaxies behind them. Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. And so, yeah, for audio listeners, there's like we showed a deep field from Hubble in the prior episode. And there's like all of these galaxies with there's red ones that are being red shifted. And there's there's stars that have like these insane. What do you call like that?

The brightest star near the center that has like that almost like Christmas star kind of look. Well, yeah, that is one of the most defining ways to find stars in these images. So the light's just being dispersed in a way, it's called the point spread function. So it's because we have a hexagonal mirror, the light gets kind of dispersed in that star asterisk looking configuration. So that's a telltale sign that you're seeing stars. Okay. And those are stars compared to the other shapes that are mostly galaxies? Yes, yes. And one of the most amazing parts about this image is if you download the high-resolution image, and I highly encourage you to do so, just start zooming in. And you're going to see that every one of these tiny little dots going across this image is completely a

resolved galaxy. We can see the structure of the galaxies. Some of them we can even see the star formation actually happening in them. It is absolutely astonishing, the resolution, clarity, as well as the detail that we're getting out of all of this. This image is, it's mind-blowing to me. And if you look at the previous hubble image compared to the james webb space telescopes image of this the same field um you'll just be blown away by first of all again the clarity but then also just like span across the image and see how many new things have appeared from the james webb telescope um telescope. So we're now seeing more distant galaxies. We have galaxies that are

over 13 billion years. The light is actually over 13 billion years old. So it took it that long to actually reach us here in our solar system. Yeah, that's something I was going to ask. We're going to show a comparison of the

Hubble photo versus the JWST photo. What are the biggest advantages, uh, coming from JWST? I assume it's from the, um, infrared and near infrared spectrum. Yeah, absolutely. So what, yeah, what are we seeing here? That's special. Um, having an infrared telescope gives us access to light that has been actually shifted or stretched to longer and longer wavelengths. This is because the galaxy or the universe is expanding. And so that light actually has to travel a very long distance. And since it's actually being traveling away from us, it actually gets stretched longer and longer to longer wavelengths. traveling away from us, it actually gets stretched longer and longer to longer wavelengths. So that's why we have an infrared telescope, is for that specific reason of trying to access these really early galaxies that had tremendous amounts of distance to actually get to us

to actually study. We have an extremely large telescope, and that's so that we can get that angular resolution, that spectacular clarity across these images as well um the colors actually show you the the distances as well it gives you that's a lot of information not only on the distance but also on the composition it lets us know if they're really dusty or if they're primarily you know young stars um there's a lot that we can have information that we get out of this um all of these details everything from the color shape um these crazy you know smeared looking ones

versus the very resolved ones um and then if we start looking at the spectra which we can actually take of each of these galaxies that tells us how far away they actually are and gives us a lot more information. And the spectra, just to explain that to the listeners, that's like the spectroscopy, right? That's like the composition of the galaxies? Right, right. Based on the wavelengths of light that we're seeing? Yeah, we're looking for sort of the fingerprints of atoms and molecules. And by doing that, we're analyzing the the certain wavelengths of light

that would be indicative of those fingerprints and so what we're hoping to find with the first stars and galaxies they don't have a lot of um former um stellar material in them right so they're only the hydrogen and helium from the big bang um so as we start looking at spectra of these really old galaxies, we're hoping to stop seeing things like oxygen and nitrogen and neon in them because then we'll know that we're actually seeing the first stars and galaxies. Whereas as we have shown in the spectra from some of these galaxies with the first image, we are seeing some of those more evolved atoms, which is suggesting that we're not even there yet. And we're already at 13.1

billion years back. So that's just crazy to think that that amount of reprocessed material is already forming in galaxies at 13.1 billion years ago. So the first couple hundred million years of the universe. So if the original stars only had helium and hydrogen in them, where do all the other atoms come from? So it comes from a process called nucleosynthesis. So stars, as they get really, really hot, those individual atoms actually start fusing together and they form heavier and heavier atoms. And so that's why we expect the older or the second generation or

third generation galaxies to have more and more of that atomic material that we'll see in the spectra. So more and more heavy atoms. So the early ones should only have that, that very pristine hydrogen and helium. Awesome. Has this photo in particular exposed anything that we didn't know because of the Hubble photo that suddenly we know more about? Or is it just kind of like a higher resolution version

and we're going to be pointing it at other stuff and figure that out later? So there's there's a lot of things that we've pulled out from this image compared to the hubble um one just because now we're at infrared wavelengths so we can see more galaxies um but also with our spectra we have access now to um really understanding the dynamics of each of these galaxies as well as the composition. And so that's giving us a lot more insight. We haven't done a full obvious scientific analysis because we wanted to put out something beautiful and spectacular

and kind of gave it a first look just so that we could explain some of the key details that are going on in this image. But I promise you people are going to go back and re-observe this multiple times and try to go deeper and deeper and really dig into the details across this entire image because there's thousands of galaxies already in there. And these photos were only taken in June, right? They were just, yeah, it was just a couple of weeks ago. So it's crazy to think, you know, how quickly we're getting our data and how fantastic it is and how much information is already embedded in these first five images. I mean, it's graduate students' thesis work.

It's an exceptional amount of material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to spend too much longer on this image just because we've got more to go through. But how long did this take to to capture compared to hubble so um each filter was about a two hour integration and so we have i think total of about 12 hours to to acquire this image um which is insane because hubble's um comparable deep deep deep field was weeks worth of time. And so we have a blink of an eye effectively with the James Webb Space Telescope compared to what we've done with the Hubble Telescope for considerable depths into the universe. That is crazy.

Yeah, so it's very intimidating. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. um it's very intimidating yeah yeah awesome well i think next um we should look at is it stefan's quintet or steven's stefan's quintet yeah seven's quintet um can you tell us a little bit about this photo for for the audio listeners it's basically it looks it looks like three things of almost like jellyfish. If you've seen like jellyfish in an aquarium, it's complete blackness. And then there's these three giant blobs of pink kind of swirling around each other. Right. So it's actually five galaxies total. The one that's kind of on the left that looks a lot more resolved, I guess. You can see all the stars and the clouds within it. That one is actually a lot closer to us than the other ones. It just happens

to be in a line of sight that makes it, well, an absolutely stunning image, but kind of makes it look like it's in closer proximity, but it's actually much closer to us than the other ones. look like it's in closer proximity, but it's actually much closer to us than the other ones. And then, as you said, the other jellyfish in the sea there, those are a series of merged galaxies. So those galaxies, the way they grow is they actually merge together. They start collapsing and merging together. So you have a lot of really dynamic process going on in these images. The top one is extremely bright, especially when you go to the longer wavelengths. And if you look at the mirrory version of that image, you see almost like a very bright striped feature going across the center of that structure. But you also see this

nice diffuse swirly um pattern which is all the material that's being blown from the merger and lit up from all the the energy that's happening but it's an active galactic nuclei so this is a really extreme um region with a black hole in the center of it and what you're seeing in the the mid-infrared image there's almost like these fingers of dust and gas that are coming off of it and that's actually the material being pulled into the black hole so there's all kinds of crazy detail in just that particular merged um galaxies um on the lower part the lower lower one, the lower right one, you can see all kinds of structure and detail as well, including some of the star forming regions that are within the galaxy. This is absolutely a fantastic and gorgeous image.

The mid-infrared image with the colors is my favorite image out of all the ones that we've released. Infrared image with the colors is my favorite image out of all the ones that we've released. I like to think of it as gems of the universe because it's so brilliantly colored and they did such a fantastic job with this image. Makes me want to be an extra galactic astronomer. Yeah. So these are all galaxies that are merging together. How exactly does that process work? Do they just like hit each other? merging together how exactly does that process work do they just like hit each other and then or do they so you can sort of see like the the one in the lower right it almost looks like it's

swirling around they're swirling around each other in a weird way yeah how does that process so they kind of eat each other and merge together um so this is it it all comes down to gravity right um they start pulling once they get in close enough proximity they'll start pulling each other together um and that that's how they become more and more massive and this is you know an extreme thing that we we're just kind of scratching the surface of now and something that the james webb space telescope is really going to provide a lot of insight and detail as we get further into the mission and we get more and more of these images. There's a lot of information that we can gain with all the wavelengths,

all the instruments of the James Webb Space Telescope. So understanding the near-infrared spectra and imagery and moving all the way through the mid-infrared where we can actually see things like the molecular hydrogen lines and understand what's going on as far as the chemical properties, the dynamics, you know, all the other physical parameters that we can pull out of this information. And the lighter, like, hazy areas that we see being thrown around that, is that, like, cosmic dust? hazy areas that we see being thrown around that is that like cosmic dust yeah a lot of it's dust um stars um large clouds of gas and dust so one of our other images is in our own galaxy of a cloud of gas and dust those are the same types of clouds that they have in these other galaxies and that's where stars are being formed okay amazing cool i. Cool. I love this photo as well. I think that a lot of people should take a look

at them. Again, like the last episode, if you're listening to this in the car, once you're done with your drive, take a look at the website and look at these because they're amazing. Okay, I think next we can move on to let's do the Spectrum

one because I think that was the third one that you guys unveiled yesterday um this one is a little bit different it's not an actual photo but it's actually just spectra so we talked about this in the last episode it's basically looking at an exoplanet and figuring out the types of compounds that are on the exoplanet um so do you want to talk about this exoplanet a little bit? Yeah. So WASP-96 is a sort of a stellar, a sun-like star. And it has this extremely large planet that orbits about every three and a half Earth years. So it's going around very, very fast. It's extremely large planet. It's about the size of Jupiter,

but it has a really, really puffy atmosphere. So it's only about half the density of Jupiter. And so- Is this a super puff? Is this considered a super puff? Yeah, it's a super puff. We talked about this in the last episode because it's a fun name. Yeah, yeah, I like that.

So this planet is, it was an ideal candidate for a first look to really see what kind of spectra we could do because we knew it had this extremely puffy atmosphere. And we knew that it was going to be a pretty hot atmosphere considering how close it is to its star. It's within the distance of Mercury from our Sun. So it's really, really close and it's going around really, really, really fast. And it's big and puffy. So we had a nice first look and got to really test the limits of what our nearest instrument that was provided by the Canadian Space Agency could do as far as studying exoplanet spectra.

So what you're seeing is actually the fingerprint pattern, as I was talking about earlier, of water in the spectra. And anybody, any layman can actually look at this image and say, yes, there's hills and valleys. actually look at this image and say, yes, there's hills and valleys and clearly there's peaks up at certain wavelengths and then there's definitely wells at other wavelengths. And what that's suggesting as far as the spectra goes is that there are actual indications of water vapor in this planet. So this is an excellent level of detail for a first look of an exoplanet spectra. So what we're hoping to do, oh, and I should also say that this is the longest wavelength spectra that we've ever been able to acquire of an exoplanet as well. So when you get to the right-hand side of the squiggly lines, that's actually uh information that's never been acquired on a an exoplanet's atmosphere so um the james webb space telescope has access to longer wavelengths

than what we've ever been able to study in these planets and that's that's a really key point um with the james webb space telescope because as you go to longer wavelengths, we get access to other very interesting molecules, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane. These are the kinds of things that we hope to be looking for in the planets around other stars, just so that we can understand what their atmospheres are actually made of. And maybe some of them might look like Earth's, maybe some of them will look like Jupiter, or maybe something of them will look like Jupiter, or maybe something really crazy like, you know, the atmosphere on Titan, for example. So it's going to be a crazy epic of, you know, studying these atmospheres and planets around

other stars. And this first look was a great demonstration of what we're going to be doing. We'll be right back with the JWST interview. But of course, since we're about to take a break, let's get into one more trivia question. All right. So Apple has a long history of using other OEMs displays. What was the brand name of the technology powering Sony's displays used in Apple CRT monitors starting in 1987.

That went from a like, I definitely know this to I'm definitely going to figure it out after the break. It had an arc to it. We'll be right back. You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus.

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So you can download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com slash waveform. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash waveform. netsuite.com slash waveform. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash waveform. netsuite.com slash waveform. Do we have a next target for an exoplanet that we've been wanting to point this thing at for a while? Everybody has their own list. I know one of the hot topics in exoplanet science

that folks have been talking about wanting to look at with the james webb space telescope for years actually since the discovery with the spitzer space telescope is the trappist system um so this uh particular planetary system has a number of planets in orbits that are in what we call the habitable zone. So they're far enough from their star where they can actually have liquid water. And the interaction of the star, you know, what kind of star it is, how hot that star is, that distance being in this habitable zone makes them really interesting planets. And there's a number of them that are actually in this region in that system. So really understanding what their atmospheres look like and maybe seeing if they have something that's of particular interest and intrigue.

Yeah. And I'm assuming there's a committee that decides like what to point this thing at and read its spectra. A committee is sort of not the right word. What we have is a panel of experts that review. So everyone in the scientific community can write their proposal to observe any given target that they want to observe. And they have to justify it, you know, what the science is, how much time it takes with the James Webb telescope, what instruments they're going to use. telescope, what instruments they're going to use. And all of these proposals come in once a year. And then we have a panel that's established of the community members themselves, and they review these proposals, and then they prioritize and rank them. And that's just based on what they think the best science is at that time. So we do this every single year because science is obviously changing every single year. There's new planets being discovered. There's other objects that are being discovered. There's follow-up observations you want to do from previous epics. There's all kinds of things that we want to do. So, having an annual cadence gives enough diversity of the science program to allow the science to evolve naturally.

So it's all peer-reviewed, and I guarantee you the TRAPPIST-1 system is definitely on the list of exoplanets to be studied. Awesome. Okay. Well, I think we should move on to the Southern Ring Nebula. To try to explain this one to people, I would say there's kind of two versions. Can you explain what those two versions are? There's one that has a blue center and then a red outer area, and then there's like a little white dot in the center. And then there's like a negative of that where it's red in the center with a blue on the outside. It almost looks like a steak. To pull it up so I'm talking about the right thing. a negative of that where it's red in the center with a blue yeah it almost looks like a steak so i'm talking about the right thing oh yeah um yeah uh the eight burst nebula an expanding cloud of gas surrounding a dying star so i guess what this would be is like um the infrared spectra that we're reading is showing the gas that's being pushed away

from the star as it's dying. Exactly. So I really hate the phrase planetary nebula, and I do not like that they call dying stars planetary nebula because it's a total misnomer, and it's very confusing to people that aren't in the biz. So what you're actually seeing is what you just said. It is a star that is dying. So what happens is if we have a star like our own sun, as it gets older and older, it eventually turns into something that we call a giant,

a red giant or a blue giant. And when that happens, it's because the star has now reached a phase that it's no longer burning hydrogen and helium, fusing hydrogen and helium to make new atoms. It starts making even heavier atoms. So now it starts burning heavier and heavier elements. And that gives off a lot of energy and all that energy now it has it starts the star starts expanding and when it expands all that that material of the star starts cooling down so you get this big dusty and gaseous cloud almost that that encases that star um and so this is where they turn red because all of that dust makes the light now a much more obscured and it makes the star appear red and cooler um once it gets to a certain phase where it no longer has

where the the that now sort of shroud of dust and gas around the star it's it's constantly expanding and eventually it expands so much that now the center star has stopped doing its fusion and it becomes a white dwarf. So it's a really tiny, teeny, teeny, tiny hot star. And that hot star is irradiating so bright that it now lights up all of that material that was just shed from the star. And so that's what you're seeing here in a planetary nebula. So all these rings that you see in both images are actually the old shells of material that have been pushed away from that star that's dying. And it's emitting in all these beautiful colors because now the center star is sort of lighting it all up and

making it irradiate. So the colors, the red that you're seeing here on the left-hand image, the near-infrared image, that's all the gas and dust that's from that sort of atomic material and a lot of dust and grains. And what's fantastic, if you blow up this image and look in any of that structure, that red fluffy sort of structure on the outside, it's crazy amounts of details. You can see almost like streaks of light that are passing through each of these clumps of gas and dust. You can see all kinds of different dynamic processes happening just with your own eyes, even not even knowing what they are. You can actually physically see that happening, which is amazing. This is 2,000 light years away too, right? This is 2,000 light years away too, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's huge, actually. These things span huge distances across the sky. Sometimes you can even see planetary nebula with simple backyard kind of telescopes. They're massive. Oh. Yeah, they're fantastic to actually try and observe for amateur astronomers so you should definitely try to do that um what's really cool about the mid-infrared image so the

one that's sort of red in the middle with the blue on the outside is you can now see that this is a binary star um so we knew that there was a dying star and we knew that there was a binary system but resolving that second star was something that was always challenging to do and now we can see it next to each other i'm sorry there are two stars that are right next to each other and that's why we you shot it in the infrared and also near infrared so you can see the difference yeah yeah so the red star the one on the left um in the mid-infrared image so in the one with the red center there's you can see the two stars so the red one on the left um in the mid-infrared image so in the one with the red center there's you can see the two stars so the red one on the left is the one that's dying um and then it has a companion star that's the white one on the right and it's um brighter so this is a really cool um demonstration

of the capability of the james webb space, not only with its wavelengths, but also with that beautiful resolution that we get so we can actually see and resolve things like this now. Yeah, that's awesome. So the one on the left is basically emitting a different wavelength of light as the one on the right, correct? And that's why you shoot in both of them? Interesting. Okay, how close are these stars together?

Are they, like, going to fall into each other? I don't know how close they are. I don't know that I have that information. They're not I don't think they're gonna collapse or anything like that. It's a binary system that's fairly stable. So they are pretty happy with where they are. We are pretty happy with where they are. Cool. Yeah, this is an awesome set of images. Okay, I think the last one, which is probably the one that everyone has been sharing all over social media and possibly, I don't want to say objectively the most beautiful one,

but definitely a very, very beautiful one. The Carina Nebula, which is another thing that we have also shot in Hubble, correct? Yeah, yeah. So the Hubble image of this is something that everybody is probably familiar with and probably seen. We have a really large image of the Eagle Nebula. And then this is one tiny little blip of that huge image that we've acquired with Hubble. one tiny little blip of that huge image that we've acquired with Hubble. So if you look at the Hubble image compared to this, the resolution is nothing near this level of detail. And the things that you

can see with the James Webb Space Telescope image is, it's mind-blowing. There's so much we don't know about the process of star formation and planet formation. And that is all the more evident just by looking at this image. And it's the web first glimpse of a star forming region. There's crazy structure. So what you're seeing is a giant cloud of gas and dust. And this is where stars and planets are born. cloud of gas and dust um and this is where stars and planets are born um and are they born in that because the the dust just like attracts itself to each other and then yeah yeah there's dynamic

processes that sort of push through these clouds and causes you know turbulence to happen and once that turbulence disturbs up a nice dense region of gas and dust, it'll cause it to start collapsing on itself, sort of initiate that key process, which is something we don't really know a lot about. So hopefully something we'll learn more from this from the James Webb Space Telescope. There's all kinds of really cool things though. So the top of the image where it almost looks like a night sky that's sort of blue with a lot of stars, that's where a lot of young stars have already formed and they've already pooled all their nearby gas and dust and are probably developing their own planetary systems. The cloud or the mountainous region is where all the cloud and the or the mountainous region is where all the cloud and the dust is actually starting to form new stars and you can see all kinds of dynamic processes happening so

if you look just past the center sort of mountain peak with a bright red star in it go to the next mountain peak and you see a yellowish golden sort of star and it has what looks like a feathery hat coming off the top of it and then the opposite of that hat there's something sort of dynamic and arcing going into the cloud itself and that's actually a young star that's forming and it when it starts collapsing all the the material that it's using to form its, it has to get rid of a lot of its internal energy. And that often happens as these outflows. And so what you're actually seeing is really, really cool that we can actually resolve this with this image is on the top where it looks like it's puffing through the top of the mountain. Its outflow is actually pushing all that gas and

dust out of the cloud. And we can see that happening. So it's like tufting up out of this mountain. And then the opposite jet is actually pushing into the cloud. And you can see the arcs and things forming because it basically just hits like a wall. And so all that energy is now just colliding with another dense region of gas and dust, which will probably be the initiation and trigger for other star formations to start happening in that region. Wow. And I'm assuming that this is going to look the same to us

for the rest of humanity, right? We can't point at this in 100 years and it's going to look different. We might see some dynamic things happening, especially with these outflow type events. There's probably some opportunity to see some dynamic activity happening, but it is a pretty slow process compared to, you know, human life. human life. Yeah. But, you know, that's the funny thing about astronomy is, you know, we're barely a blink of an eye and all of the things that are happening across the universe. Yeah. But yeah, this is definitely one of the most beautiful images of all time.

And I'm so excited to see what we're going to do with the rest of Star Formation. I think half the internet is using this photo as a wallpaper right now. I'm using it as my laptop wallpaper right now and my phone wallpaper. Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. Was there a reason that we pointed at the Carina Nebula? Was it just sort of as a way to show Webb's superiority versus Hubble for this kind of imaging? So there was a lot, well, what we wanted to do with these first images was really demonstrate

all the science themes that we have for the James Webb Space Telescope and show the community and the public that we can actually achieve our scientific goals within these themes with the James Webb Space Telescope. And a lot of emphasis was put on looking at objects that we've already observed before, because there's already a little bit, you know, some foundation of knowledge from these regions or objects. But also if we have things like Hubble imagery, that's something that is easier to understand and relate to as far as when you want to demonstrate the differences between the Hubble telescope and the James Webb Space Telescope. So what I will say is the ones that were shown were just a select few. They actually observed multiple

objects within each of these science themes. And they just chose the best ones. But there's more out there. And all that information is getting released as we speak. So we'll see the other observations of potential early release observations for the James Webb Space Telescope that will be coming out. I'm sure the scientific community will be on it and ready to start revealing all the hidden secrets that we've had on the project for the last few weeks. But it's really exciting. And I'm so glad they chose this one because I think it's absolutely stunning. Yeah, how often can we expect to see new images coming out? Well, initially, there's going to be probably quite a few,

just because, like I said, we were collecting all of these data as each of our instrument modes became available if you were following the Wares web and we were checking off each instrument. So some of these images, we were able to start acquiring that data pretty early, so a number of weeks ago. Some of them we had to wait until the final mode was actually blessed and approved, and then we could start taking the data. So that's why the observations actually spanned a couple of weeks for all five of these images that were released. But as I said, we were taking some images of not just one region, but maybe two or three different nebulae, for example.

And then they got to prioritize which ones they thought were the best. And so there's a lot of observations that actually happened within the last few weeks of commissioning the James Webb Space Telescope. All that information is becoming available, as I said, as we speak. They're working on getting all that data online so folks can go in and look so i think initially we're going to see a lot of it coming out just because it's there it's everybody wants to get their hands on the james webb data as quickly as possible so we'll probably see a number of images coming out after that it's going to take a little bit of time because the scientists are going to start getting their data.

And then depending on their familiarity with the analysis and interpretation of that data, it might take are observing the first year, um, have a proprietary period on that data for about a year. So they get to hold onto it. It's not public, um, to do their analysis, to really, um, understand, you know, what, what it is that their scientific objective was. But some of the observations are actually available immediately to the public. And so those will probably come out a lot faster. And there's a whole series of programs that are called early release science programs.

And these were designed as such. So they're science programs that were taken, that will be taken within the first six months of the James Webb science operations. Some of them started today or yesterday or even last week. And those observations will become public immediately. And so some of that data and imagery spectra will probably be coming out a lot faster than the other general cycle science programs. Okay.

And is that, is that all going to be available on the same NASA website that all these photos are on? Yeah. Um, so not the NASA website, everything goes into our archive. Um,

so we have the Mikulski archive. It's where all the Hubble data is actually archived. I don't know if there's plans to do something like, you know, the Hubble site where you can go in and search any Hubble image that's ever been taken and find it for yourself and put it on your desktop or on your phone or whatever. There will probably be something similar for the James Webb Space Telescope, but I'm not 100% sure what those plans are. But I'm guessing there will be. Okay. Awesome. Well, I think that was a really amazing explanation of all these images.

For people that are listening, you should really watch the video podcast because it's very visual. Sorry for the audio listeners. But yeah, is there anything else that people should know where they can stay up to date with everything JWST is doing? JWST.nasa.gov is the first go-to. Of course, you can always Google JWST and find everything. We were even the Google Doodle. I saw that. Yeah, I saw that.

I didn't even know that was happening. And somebody told me to go and look. I thought that was really fun. Yeah, I saw that. I didn't even know that was happening. And somebody told me to go and look. I was I thought that was really fun. Yeah. But yeah, so JWST.nasa.gov. We're also all over social media. It's mostly NASA web is our handle. So that's another great place to follow along. Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on. If there's anything else that you think is worth talking about, then I guess let us know now. But otherwise, I think we're pretty good. I have been talking nonstop for two days. I was going to say, you should probably go get some sleep. Eventually. I'm sure you have more interviews after this, but take a nice vacation or something.

Cool. Well, thank you so much for having me. Of course. Thank you. We're super excited about this. So awesome. All right. Well, that was a lot of fun, David, to listen to. And I just it's because I've had the, I've been rotating between these James Webb Space Telescope images

as my wallpapers on all my devices for the past couple of days since they came out. And it's funny, I've looked in high resolution on these brand new screens at these photos for so long at all these different things. And this entire time, I had never noticed that the one with the two different similar looking images had a binary star system in the middle.

Literally never saw the second star until hearing that that's how they shot these two. Super cool stuff. Yeah, just cool to learn about our universe in such a visually engaging way. Yeah, I think that a lot of these images really showcase the spectrum that JWST can take photos in. That one that you mentioned I thought it was just like a positive image and like a negative image like they did a reversal but it's actually a mid infrared image and a near infrared image because there's a dying star that emits a certain type of light

and then the other star in that system emits a different type of light very cool yeah but obviously these are only like the first like four or five images and many more to come there's a lot more to come many more wallpapers to come we were joking like yeah this is like

Adam walked in you walked in I walked in we have all of the same wallpaper I'm feeling left out here I think it might be time to change my wallpaper I would bet you

like half of the world has this as their wallpaper right now and if they haven't they should have sold it. Backdrop. Oh, no. Okay, okay, okay.

Let's wrap. Yeah, no, that's it. I think we're on the same page, though, that the live stream revealing and explaining the photos was, well, it was at the same time as the nothing event. It was clearly the better live stream.

I wish I watched that. I had one on each monitor and I was paying way more attention to one than the other I was definitely watching NASA and I only was notified that there was a nothing event happening because someone tagged us because they had the waveform podcast. That is true NASA

did not show shop.mkv.com So what's up with that NASA? Yeah not cool What's up with that? I'll wait for that in the next JWST images if you can like find a constellation and name it waveform or something that would be dope

either way I think that's a good place to end it but of course well played well played I think we should end it because we didn't

finish up with the trivia so maybe David you haven't heard the trivia questions yet right no so we'll answer the trivia and then if you think

both of our answers are wrong maybe you can chime in. Can I get David on my team? What? Wait, we get teams? Wait, I get teams because I got destroyed the first season. You can have teams today. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

David's on my team today. All right, fine. We're team right camera. Okay. Camera right. Team left camera. All right. So the questions were, the first first question what was ask.com

originally known as so we i think we both know this one right i'm pretty sure it was ask jeeves right yeah am i allowed i can say the answer now yeah okay because like last time you're good i would yeah ask you ask jeeves yeah i I do remember this was there a longer version? well there was a bunch of search engines that were sort of competing I'm doing air quotes for the audio listeners we were trying to think like oh okay if I don't use Google for everything what will I use other search engines for and Bing had its thing

I remember I used one called AltaVista I remember AltaVista there was AskJeeves, There's the Yahoo search engine. There's all kinds of other options. Is Ask.com still a website? It is. You can still ask Jeeves.

They were sort of trying to spin it into an AI. Yeah. Where like Jeeves was a character like Siri. They should have spun it into an NFT. That's weird. I'm glad they didn't. Yeah. Very happy they didn't.

Andrew, you were so proud of that. Not proud of it? That was correct then? Yes. Because I remember they changed so proud of that that was correct then yes because i remember they changed the name of that like three or four times it was ask jeeves it was ask.com it's probably because it was the worst name ever yeah ask jeeves is terrible it's not bad i don't think it's that bad it was like that early part of the internet where people were trying to make fun things and jeeves is like the classic butler name yeah it was in this it was the it was the it was ahead of its time.

It was an assistant. Yeah. Basically. Before Siri, before Alexa. Clippy Supreme. It was not before Clippy. Clippy was really ahead

of its time. Ask Clippy.com. Is that available? Ask Clippy.pizza? Is that available? NYC. Next question. This one's way harder

by the way, David. It's very hard. Yep. Okay. Apple has a long way harder, by the way, David. This one is very hard. Yep. Okay. Apple has a long history of using other OEMs displays. What was the brand name of the technology powering Sony's displays used in Apple CRT monitors starting in 1987? What? Okay.

That's why I wanted you on my team because that's how I felt when I first saw it. What was the branding? I just want everyone to know that Ellis looked at me like I was crazy because I didn't know this. I think I need a whiteboard to even understand the question of where it's going. Okay, so Apple has a long history of using other OEM displays. We know this. What was the brand name of the technology? So not the display itself.

of the technology so not the display itself the technology that powers the Sony displays that were used in Apple CRT monitors okay in 1987 so when they work backwards here in 1987 Apple had CRT monitors and their displays correct those CRT monitors were built by Sony correct those CRT monitors built by Sony. Correct. Those CRT monitors built by Sony used a certain technology, and that technology had a brand name. Was it Sony's branding, or was it Apple's branding? Or Sony's branding? That's a good question. Either an Apple name, an Apple name that everyone understood, or a Sony name that nobody

If it's Sony, it's like RX-7968G. Yeah. Which has CRT. So a CRT. or a Sony name if it's Sony it's like RX 7968G yeah which has CRT so a CRT I'm assuming I don't know the answer yeah

that's where I'm starting near near infrared retina that's not my actual that's not my actual answer

I like I'm gonna try to make one I can see Ellis knows we all know what it is. It's just not clicking. And is this going to be like something we're going to be really sad about when we hear the answer?

CRT 1987. Oh, what Mac was that? The PowerBook. If it helps. Before that. Sony replaced this brand name in the early 2000s with Bravia. No. No. That does not help. replaced this brand name in the early 2000s with Bravia no no I know about Sony Bravia I'm trying to remember if I think we should give up I think I'm gonna try to logistically create one from the information like the like CRT's had like

had like bad refresh rates and they had, like, scanning problems. I don't think they marketed that, though. No, but they would want theirs to have, like, a name that would suggest it overcame those problems. Okay. So it would be, like, Clean Scan or something like that. You know what I mean? I guess Sony would name it that. Another hint is the problem it overcame was brightness, actually.

Like, it was brighter than the other ones? It was brighter than a standard CRT. And this technology made its way to televisions in the early 60s. It's the name of a technology and not a branding. A sun vision of a technology. I could ask you the name of the technology, but I don't think. This is such a complex question. I know.

The branding of a technology. Let's call it Sony Clearview. Okay. It's called Trinitron. What? It's written... Yeah, I don't think I was going to get that either. If there's any

listeners out there that got that, I will give you Ellis' personal cell phone number. You must be older than us to probably get that. Well, the final score is Marques1 Andrew won. Season two, harder questions.

Yeah. Was that it? There's not another question? That was it. That was kind of fun. I kind of want another one. We'll get more. You want another one?

I have like 20 more. Let's do one more. Yeah. One more. Okay. One more. Let's do it. Let's go.

So, we all know who made the Betamax, but what company was responsible for VHS? Oh, I know this. I didn't. Retro Tech. We answered this in Retro Tech. Oh, VHS. Hold on.

Hold on. I need to remember. David looks like he knows it. David either looks super confident or very not confident. I don't know. He's confident. It's a confident face. JVC.

I was wrong. If that's right. What's your answer, Andrew? Panasonic. JVC. I'm mad now. JVC. The minute he said that,

I pictured it on the phone. Sorry, Andrew. Andrew, I thought we were a team. Oh, we're a team. David said it. Well, if you have different answers. I'll give you half a point for that. Splitting it up.

No, I remembered we... Sorry, David. It was a rivalry in Retro Tech World when we went over that. I just had to think back to the versus. Yeah. Well, good job. I had a JVC camcorder back in the day,

so good times. All right. Well, good job. I had a JVC camcorder back in the day, so good times. All right. Well, that's where we'll end it. Thanks for tuning in and for playing along with us and send us your screenshots of your wallpaper on Twitter of how you're using JWST images

because I know you are. Yeah, you definitely are. For sure. Also, big thanks to Dr. Stephanie. Oh, yeah. Shout out to NASA. No big deal. Much appreciated. Yet again. You guys are the best and hopefully we to NASA. No big deal. Much appreciated.

Yet again. You guys are the best. And hopefully we'll talk to them again soon. All right. See you guys later. Peace out, dude. Waveformer is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Roven. We are partnered with Vox Media and our inter-attro is created by Vayne.

So. Thank you.