Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - PC Gaming, New Consoles, & the RTX 30 Series with Maingear!

Episode Date: October 2, 2020

Our very special guests this week, Maingear Founder Wallace Santos and Marketing Director Ron Reed, join us to discuss the state of the PC gaming community, especially with the PS5 and Xbox Series X on the horizon. We cover console obsolescence, 8K & VR gaming, and the crazy performance specs on the new Nvidia RTX 30 series like the RTX 3080 and the RTX 3090. Links: https://twitter.com/wvfrm https://twitter.com/mkbhd https://twitter.com/andymanganelli https://www.instagram.com/wvfrmpodcast/ shop.mkbhd.com Music by KamrenB: https://spoti.fi/2WRJOFh Wallace: https://twitter.com/santos_wallace Ron: https://twitter.com/IamRonReed Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC optimum points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Waveform podcast. Fun fact, it's episode 24 of the year. We're your hosts. I'm Marques Brownlee.

And I'm Andrew Manganielli. And today with us, we actually have two more guests, both from MainGear. Now we'll talk more about MainGear in a second, but we'll have our little introductions, Ron and Wallace from MainGear. Thanks for joining us. And I don't know, how do you want to introduce yourselves as the two most influential people at MainGear and what does MainGear do? Give us a little breakdown intro. Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having us. It's a great pleasure. And I'm Wallace,

CEO and founder for MainGear. I started the business when I was 18 years old, actually down the street from you, right here in Newark. New Jersey roots. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, today we're considered essentially one of the premier boutique system builders in the world, actually. So we're strategic partners with NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, pretty much all the silicon manufacturers in the world. Yeah. And so Ron, uh i'm the marketing director here at main gear uh lifelong gamer right so started gaming when i was in kindergarten and just it's been a passion my whole life and same thing with pcs i've been in the pc space for i

think at this point over 15 years and i've been with main gear for over eight so wow it's been that long yeah it's been that long which is awesome and like honestly i just i'm passionate about everything surrounding this and so like it's getting to do what you love is just amazing and so it's really really really awesome experience yeah when he says we're passionate he's he means that we we like have really in-depth discussions about every single thing that we do. It's perfect. It's kind of like when you're working in a video studio like we are here. We're in the background having all kinds of conversations about what are good videos and what makes a good video.

So I imagine the conversations behind the scenes at Main Gear are like, you know, I wish this card would do this. You know, it would be great if they had these CPUs that would actually fit with this, blah, blah, blah. And that's a conversation we don't have as much, but I think it's really interesting. I think it comes up here once in a while when big new pieces of hardware come out that capture a lot of attention,

like the new NVIDIA cards that we're seeing with this new generation now. We just did a video on 8K gaming on the RTX 3090, and it was made possible by you guys because we had a main gear PC and we had the card and we had this whole build around it. And then we had 8K gaming happen. I think that's a lot of conversations happen in the studio. Like, wow, 8K gaming, we can't really do that on these consoles that are also coming out this year. I'll ask you guys, what do you think of this world of PC gaming with 8K gaming and ray tracing and high resolution,

high frame rate and all this fun stuff versus the new console generation we're seeing come out around the same time? You guys talk about that? Yeah, yeah. So there's always that conversation that takes place when a new console gets announced that PC gaming is dead, right?

And companies like AMD and NVIDIA, they always have a card in their pocket just waiting to drop it, right? Yeah, the timing seemed really good. Like there's so much PS5 and Xbox talk, and then all of a sudden NVIDIA just comes out with this and just has been dominating the news cycle. So you think they sort of held that in mind where this big leap was nicely coincided with

around when the consoles are starting to get info? You know, I'm not going to say they purposely aligned it because I really don't know, right? But maybe just the stars aligned. But I doubt that a company like NVIDIA would just sit on the sidelines and wait for consoles to just eat into their, technically their market share of PC gaming gpus right so um um you know that's the

beauty of of the pc architecture the platform right it's it's always ahead it's always up to date so consoles you have to you're basically getting the latest and greatest uh what when is the new xbox and playstation coming out november? Yeah, like a month or two. A month or two. Very soon. If you can get one. Yeah, I couldn't pre-order, by the way. But you'll get the latest and greatest then, but the PC is going to be updated in three months, in six months, or whatever, whatever.

So we'll always be ahead. Yeah, I think the modular part of it always spoke to me. So I built PCs in the past, and that was always the question as well. If you get something like a console that'll be the same for the next however many years until it's slowly starting to reach its limit and the next generation of games is around the corner, then you have to upgrade everything at once versus a PC where you're like, you know what? I think my GPU needs have outgrown this machine.

I'm going to upgrade just the GPU and I'll get what I need from that. There's a bunch of advantages and disadvantages with cost and space and all that stuff. But that was, that's the part I liked about it. Although let's be real. Every time you're ready to upgrade your GPU, then you're like, to get the full potential out of this, I have to bring that. And then you've just got a whole nother computer. Yeah.

Usually. You look at like the marketing messages, right, behind the new console launches. And it's 4K. We're going to have ray tracing. It's, oh, we have like SSDs now inside of them, right? If you're a PC gamer, this is all old news. You've been playing at 4K and high frame rates and experiencing ray tracing now for a long time right and so that's a big part of it is if gaming is your your passion and you want to

experience it on the highest level like in reality like pc is the way to do that sooner and better right and i think that's uh like one of the key advantages behind gaming on the PC is, especially like all of us here, right? We're passionate about tech. We're passionate about being ahead of the curve with this technology. And so PC is the way to experience that in gaming, VR, like you could, the list goes on of what comes out first on the PC. Yeah, VR is interesting. So I just got, we have the Oculus Quest 2 here. So this new, I guess you could call it a gaming console, right?

It's its own system, basically. It has its own store of apps, its own storage. It's a standalone unit. And in a way, I feel like that's a, I don't know if you've played with the Quest 1, but that was one of my favorite pieces of tech from last year, and that feels like a really forward-thinking, bleeding-edge gaming experience. What do you guys think of VR?

I know you can plug in a Quest to a PC and use it as a headset, but do you guys have strong thoughts about VR and how it relates to gaming? Yeah, yeah. So it's funny because I just received my headset from Valve, right? Oh, yeah. So we haven't gotten to try that at all. The Valve Index, right?

The Index, yeah. You know, I actually got it a while back and I just recently set it up, right? But just the controls and it's just incredible. I'm starting to play Alex now, right? Yeah. And the experience is just so different than what you get by using the keyboard or mouse and sitting in front of a screen or even sitting in front of a console, you know, in your living room that I almost see like, you know, kind of

full circle. It's like, it's not about what's, what platform is best. It's just about gaming. Right. So like, I feel like an Xbox is an extension of a PC for me. I almost feel like I should have an Xbox, even though I'm a PC gamer. And if you're a gamer, you should probably try VR because it's that cool. The experience is that different. And it's the same thing with a Switch. A Switch, if you look at it from a technological standpoint,

it's kind of old. It's low resolution. Purely spec-wise, yeah, exactly. Yeah, 720p screen. But who cares? It's about the fun factor. technological standpoint it's kind of old right like it's low resolution like spec wise yeah exactly 720p screen but who cares it's yeah it's about the fun factor it's about being able to connect with your friends and and play and sit down on the table here and kind of just have fun some of my favorite experiences i've had over the last couple years have been on my switch as well so you're totally right like it's not limited by tech. And you brought up Half-Life Alyx. Like that to me is the kind of like the thing that shows what VR can do in gaming and what I'm excited about for the future. Like that game is only made possible by VR.

Like the experience that you have is is is amazing and i'm excited to see what that kind of sets as a precedent for more vr experiences because like up to this point there's been a lot of really cool stuff to do in vr um i have a vibe at home uh currently and you know especially when you have people over and like showing off that's the most fun to me. Having people over and trying it for the first time. Because most people haven't tried a great proper VR experience. And having people over and trying it is always really fun. There's also something to about it being way more intuitive than like, if somebody's never played a game before and you hand them an Xbox controller,

you're like, press the A button. And then they take their head down from the screen, look at the controller, find where the A button is, and then press it. And then have lost what it actually did on the screen anymore where vr any my mom's played it my sister's played it my wife's played it they don't really play games and they're just in and having a blast like almost instantly and it's it's cool to just let anybody experience that which is yeah it's a really it was a fun i when i talked with mark zuckerberg about this like that was what he got the most passionate about was like, putting someone in another world and like letting them actually experience what it's like to be in it. So there's a game I haven't played the Half-Life game, but there's a game called Echo VR, where you're like sort of floating around another planet, kind of playing this sport where you're like throwing yourself through space and grabbing a ring and scoring and a goal.

through space and grabbing a ring and scoring in a goal. And once you get the mechanics of that, you're not really thinking about playing. You're just in this other world playing. You totally have lost that you're in your living room between two couches and you think you're in this other world. I guess that leads to maybe a more difficult question for you guys, but I'd be curious what you think. If every time a new console comes out people say pc games are dead but then they aren't really when would pc gaming actually be in danger or is it a forever a forever thing because we have new form factors we have the switch now we have vr games is pc gaming a forever thing yeah so um we've i've had this conversation um especially from a business survival standpoint, multiple times, right? Specifically, I was never concerned about a new console generation dropping and potentially jeopardizing our business.

I was concerned at one point when PC game streaming was the big talking point, right? Oh, okay. So, you know, this is when on its early stages, we're like, oh my goodness, what's going to happen if nobody needs to purchase a PC again, right? Like, what do we do, right? Do we sell just workstations? Like, how do we feed our families essentially, right? Because we're, you know, as you guys know, we're making these really beautiful bespoke PCs. They're almost like art pieces in some ways.

And, you know, the conversation completely switched to who cares because it's all about latency, right? And when you experience PC gaming is all about, obviously, the quality experience that you get, the visual quality experience, right? But it's also about the feel, the latency, right? So the latency of a really fast keyboard and mouse, the latency now that the NVIDIA is marketing really well, that I believe companies like Intel and AMD are going to start to market even more now. It's not just frames per second, it's how fast you can use

the competitiveness of the experience. So from a network infrastructure, and in the US. So, you know, from a network infrastructure and in the US at least, I don't think it's there yet for at least another five years. I agree. I was gonna say, I was asking like, how good is that really? The best remote, I don't even know what to call it.

It feels like a remote PC is the best way to explain it, but how good is the very best remote PC experience versus having the hardware yourself? It's not that good yet, right? Well, it's... I mean, it's impressive that it works. Look, it might be good enough for certain people, right? And it goes back to what we're saying before.

If it's good enough for you to have fun, sure. Then it's good enough, right? Like I strongly believe there's a reason why like Stadia is not the hot thing, right? Like I bought the Stadia Founders Edition. I was like, oh my God, this is gonna, you know. I hope they don't do some crazy magical stuff that removes latency all of a sudden.

But I'm like, okay, look, it look does it suck no it doesn't like i i used it at home i actually hardwired it to to my you know to my network uh infrastructure at home my router whatever um and um it it worked great okay uh but then you go and use a pc you're like oh this is way better that's like i've said that a million times i've i never got that excited about stadia because i just didn't think it was i think my perspective on all this is i almost every game i play is very competitive at least i just get extremely competitive with it and like to me i just haven't found i mean i used to play call of duty on xbox and stuff but once you get onto a computer and you're now at a higher frame rate, everything's like zero latency, anything.

And there's just always like a far broader competitive like audience on PC, just always in every game you play, I feel like. So and then even when you take that another step into like esports, where as much as none of us are going to be esports players like esports are selling these games as well so like the bigger esports are always going to be on pc and almost never on console unless you're talking like maybe some fighting games or like smash like smash and tech and stuff like that it's funny you mentioned that because i know i'm thinking of like competitive gaming and I'm obviously not a hugely competitive gamer so I'm skewed on this right but the game I play the most is NBA 2k and there's a whole mode where you can like go to the park and play with your friends and play against other groups of friends and that it's always full there's always tons of people there and the number one thing everyone's always complaining about is how much lag there is and

how much latency there is and this guy's glitching again and like how far behind some actions are to when you press controller but people are always there so i think it's like a it's a different group of people that don't care about the latency and on the competitive edge of having the smallest delay and then we'll just play the game they like versus like the games that are tailored to like you have the best reaction time therefore you should probably pay on a pc yeah but in terms of like a marketing standpoint for some of these games you see stuff well like esports is gonna sell because it's just bringing more attention to the game when there's a big i mean i like when i used to play league of legends i went to madison square garden which was sold out to watch the like na finals of uh of league of legends it was wild it was so much fun but then you even think about all the top streamers right now are all

playing on pc also so like the people who are bringing games to the like general audience are almost all on pc which means those game titles are going to have the hype like all the time what we see happen a lot actually is it's almost like uh with competitive games we'll give like fortnite is like a really good example even though you can't download it on an iphone right now but right um if you look at it like it's almost like a a gateway into getting to those higher levels of performance right so you you start because you have a phone so you play fortnite on your phone right and then you want that better experience you want to compete at the level that you're seeing your favorite Twitch streamer stream at,

or content creator. You just want to be better at the game, right? And so when you're talking about streaming, the definition of what good is has changed. So when it comes to competitive titles, good is not 60 frames a second. Good isn't even 120 frames a second because you get a competitive advantage as you get the higher frame rates. Right. So that target is, is growing. And so there's different parts of the conversation. It's, you know, there's single player titles where it's a little different. Right. But there's still advantages to it, but in the competitive space,

that bar just keeps going up. I mean, there's 320-hertz displays that are going to be coming out, right? Yeah, what is the... Maybe you guys are the best to ask. What is the... I'm not a PC gamer full-time yet. I still play more on the console.

So if I theoretically were to get into some games that would really take advantage of high frame rates, what is the point of, what is it called? Limited return? Diminishing return. What is the point of diminishing return for that setup? I'm sure you guys have like 240 hertz monitors at home and like the sweetest setups possible. Where would I start with that?

So for you or for the average listener? Oh, good question. Let's pretend I have a budget of like, it's not even the budget. It's just like, where should I just stop going crazy, obsessing over frame rates? I probably don't need a 320 Hertz monitor. So what's the point of all of this, right?

Like, why do you play basketball? Why do you play a sport? And it's because of the competition aspect, right? So how good do I want to get? How good do I really want to play? So it's really what you can afford and how much you want to beat your friends. You want to have the best gear to have the edge over your buddy. But to answer that question about what's the sweet spot, I I would say like for monitors, it's around like 240 hertz right now.

I wouldn't necessarily plow down for a 340 hertz screen because you're it's it's, you know, it's very hard to differentiate between 240 and 340. Right. I was going to ask, do you think you could tell? Yeah. Yeah. You could tell. Yeah. Between 340 and 240. you could tell uh yeah yeah you could tell yeah between 3 3 40 and 240 oh like hold on me yeah playing a game no if you're too i can't right but i can tell between 120 and 240 okay and i can definitely tell between 60 and 120 sam right um i think there's a a step to being able to tell difference between that and i think it the higher the the frame rate or even just like the limit you're pushing goes it it makes it harder and harder to see that jump so like if I was only playing on 60 Hertz and then you put 144 Hertz and a 240

Hertz in front of me I probably wouldn't be able to see the difference because I haven't gotten used to one of them yet if you're playing one game for a year on 144 Hertz and then you play that same game on a 240 hertz you're probably going to notice the difference because you've gotten so dialed into something just like like when you're playing ultimate you get a new pair of cleats like you've gotten so used to it or yeah or we in ultimate we're so picky about the type of frisbee that we use like we use a disc craft if someone put a whammo in our hands we wouldn't even look at it and you're just like, this feels completely off.

So. That's a perfect example. I always relate back to sports because that's what I know, I think really well. And it's like, if you're a beginner, like I would be with PC gaming, then you probably won't notice as much the differences between the higher frame rates or whatever.

But if you're super into it and super calibrated because you have a lot of hours in, then you'll notice the small differences so for me like you like you say the disc like if you hand a beginner an aria disc or a discraft disc or whatever and tell them to throw it probably won't matter because they're still learning to throw um but yeah i think when you you bring that back to pc gaming it's like you should you could probably start with 120 hertz 240 hertz monitor. You start with getting those frame rates and just learning the game in the first place. Then once you've learned the game, then you can spend the money on what you think will

actually make you better. So it's interesting. So like NVIDIA actually did some stuff around this, right? Where they got a bunch of people together that varied in skill set and then had them play a game on different refresh rates and saw what their accuracy was so a lot of what we're talking about right now is noticing it right but there's the not noticing it there's the i'm just better at the game now because i'm playing at a higher refresh rate interesting and that's what they actually found is and the people who had the least skill set, I believe, had the greatest improvement by going up because their skill ceiling was lower.

And so they got a like, you know, a pro is able to adjust more to different environments. It impacted them pretty dramatically, but they have more muscle memory. So they're able to compensate for like a handicap right but a person who wasn't as skilled actually saw a greater increase in accuracy from the higher refresh rates so it's like it's not just about perception it's about like actual results in a title like that huh yeah i'm sure there's like i was also thinking about golf because then in golf there's like again if was also thinking about golf because then in golf, there's like, again, if you're a super beginner, I could give you pretty much any type of golf club and you'd get the same wild variety of results. But if you hand a tour pro, like a, like two different

irons, but one of them has a little bit lower center of gravity and they notice the one with a lower center of gravity has more spin and they start hitting it higher. They'll adjust their swing around it and they can make that work for them but that that adjustment only happens when you notice what's going on if you don't notice what's going on you make the same swing over and over you're going to subconsciously get a better shot with the lower cg iron despite you not adjusting so the equipment i think that's kind of like when when tech is at its best is when it's like unnoticeable like magic it just works for you you don't think about it too much and it just makes you better or have more fun that's actually funny because that's how to completely turn this into a different subject

now this is exactly what we were talking about when we're talking about 8k gaming and how okay it's a crazy resolution what's the point of this but there's one thing about games when you get super high quality and like ultra realism that it's not that something looks bad that takes you out it's that something just looks off and all of a sudden you're completely out of this immersion so in 8k and with like ray tracing when we were looking at that game control i think it was that had all the crazy real-time rendering reflections and lighting effects and stuff like that. Those are just all little things that when you're walking through the world, it's just like, oh, everything looks

normal. But if it wasn't doing that correctly, or if it was a little off, because of a, you know, maybe a GPU that couldn't power it or just lower graphic settings or lower resolution, then you would start feeling less immersed. So 8k is is beautiful but it's also just bringing you all these things that you're subconsciously just realizing aren't a problem which is weird to think like i'm going to spend all this extra money for it to look more normal but it's about the immersion right so like certain games you don't want to play in 8k because you don't you want more than 60 frames per second yeah right um but like you I'm not going to say Flight Sim is a bad example because we haven't tried that game. Control is probably the prime example of a beautifully crafted piece of art as far as

a game goes. Yeah. And it doesn't matter if you're hitting 60 or 140 at that point because it's just about the experience that you're having. Being in the world, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But for example, Flight Sim, they're talking about how it's crushing about the experience that you're having. Being in the world, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, but for example, like Flight Sim,

they're talking about like, you know, how it's crushing GPUs. And it doesn't matter because you don't need, you know, 200 frames per second in that game for you to have a great time. Yeah, as long as you're like over 30 in Flight Simulator, like that's what you need to enjoy. And like, obviously you're flying slow.

You're like, the game is different. And so it's- Simulated games are. I used to play a lot more simulated games actually, which is kind of funny. There's a truck simulator game I used to play a long time ago, which is like, I can't drive.

I'm a kid, but here in this game, I can drive and I can drive around the streets and stay in my lane and all that stuff. But like, yeah, in those games, you're looking around at like the inside of the cabin and the textures on the road. And it feels more realistic when you get more information. So I'm not looking for 240 hertz there.

I'm looking for detail. So that's one of those games that I think falls in the benefits more from resolution category, which is fun. But I want to turn the conversation a little bit on you guys. So what other tech do you get into after, you know, the gaming world? You get home from work. You want to get back into tech. What kind of stuff does that bleed into? Are you smartphone guys?

Are you electric car guys? What kind of comes out of that? We've had, first of all, I've just converted Ron to an iPhone. So I just want to congratulate him on graduating from Android. Read phone history. I had all the iPhones up to the four. him on graduating from Android. Read phone history. I had all the iPhones up to the 4. Then I left for Android. What made you leave?

When the 4S got announced and it wasn't bigger and I was looking at all these big Android phones and that's what I wanted and I was disappointed. And then multiple Android phones, like big OnePlus fan um big pixel series fans and then the pixel 3 was kind of the nail in the coffin for me of i don't want like samsung bloatware like it bugs me it just annoys me like i just personally can't deal with it right at my core yeah it's just like i can't stand it i can't deal with it um and i didn't feel like i wanted a flagship phone and i didn't feel like i could get the vanilla google

experience at the time and like true vanilla google experience and a flagship and so it was full apple eco apple ecosystem switch to airpods apple watch oh man this guy's so great. That is a hard pivot. Yeah, in like one go. And Apple Watch was part of the reason too because Google's wearables are just not there. I'm kind of actually in the same place. Not that I'm going to do this massive pivot, but like I really like the simple, clean Android experience.

And every time I use a Samsung phone, I just keep trying to use the note 20 ultra i'm like i love this screen i love this hardware this battery these cameras they're so good and then i open the two different clock apps and i'm like what why is this calendar so ugly why is what is going on with this this software uh so i really i've been a big fan of like the pixels and nexuses before them but But yeah, they're just not really the flagships that I want them to be. And as we all know, Pixel 5, maybe you don't all know,

but it's not probably gonna be the highest end bleeding edge flagship. Yeah, I think it's rumored to be like a $700 mid-range. Yeah, 765G, like a mid-range spec and they just focus on the software, which is cool. For most people, that's great. But for, yeah, for me, I'm like, wow, I really wanted like the Note 20 Google Play Edition. guys remember google play edition oh i was gonna say that like i just

wish there was a google play edition for for samsung phones because the hardware is so beautiful yeah like it's just a beautiful screen like it's just perfect and then the software is just you know i get sad every time i think about google play edition and how that stopped happening i wish i could have done something to save it. Maybe. Let's start a campaign. Start a petition? Let's do it. I'm in. We got a signature already. What about you? You got a phone stuff?

Yeah. I'm using an iPhone. I just purchased the Surface Dual. That was my... For me, I'm like, you know what? I think Microsoft's going to do it. They're going to strip all the extra stuff. I'm going to, you know, I'm in the Microsoft ecosystem now with Office 365, et cetera, because it works.

So I said, you know what? This is going to be it. And I don't care about the specs specifically on that phone. I just care about the, you know, the output of what I can do with it, right? Yeah. The dual screens, it's going to be cool. So I was a little bit disappointed.

Yep. Yep. The hardware was so nice. Even though there's just big chins all over the place, right? It's, it was beautiful. Like the way it closes, the way it sounds. I didn't care about the camera not being awesome. I didn't care about the processor not being the latest and greatest from this year. I just wish they had really nailed the software part down. And it's not there yet, but I'm looking forward to the second version. Yeah.

So when you bought it, were you buying it as this is going to be your one phone or is this now like a work phone almost? I was hoping it was going to be my only phone, but I was expecting it to be my work phone. Okay. Cause we talk a lot about how it's kind of potentially being like the new blackberry as like this this isn't your main phone but it does so many good productivity things that people will be carrying it on weekdays kind

of things and then probably not touch it as much at nights or on the weekends and then have your iphone have your oneplus what you said what you though, so is like very close to like my, my review, my feelings about it. Like there's a couple of things they can do with Surface Duo 2 that if they really nail those things, I'm going to be really into that, that device. Cause like you said, they nailed the hardware. It's awesome. It's beautiful.

You close it. It's, you know, the full 360 hinge, the hinge is amazing. And even a lot of what Panos was talking about with like the dual screen experience, where once you get used to it, it's kind of hard to go back. A lot of what he said is true. It's just the software actual execution is a little buggy sometimes a little stuttery, like not great. And that makes it hard to get in that flow with it. And I think if they stick with it, I they do and the second one has you know higher end specs a little bigger battery maybe high refresh rate they can do a lot of things

with software to make it more fluid and more more more in the flow and I think that would be awesome I think the only thing that's like a bummer with this kind of stuff is like they are still stuck with like what development from third party app people will happen. Right. And that's the Android issue. Right. Is that there's so many different form factors unless it gets wild adoption. Yeah.

Like the Microsoft stuff will get there and work really well. But like the other apps that you depend on Twitter, Instagram. Are not necessarily going to take advantage of it. And so that's the thing that I think is the biggest challenge that they have with it. It started for me just from the sign up. I was trying to sign up when I first turned it on to sign up with my Office 365 work account. That was my whole goal.

It wouldn't accept it. So it made me sign up with my personal live account. Then it made me sign up with my Google account. And then I had to individually sign up with my Office 365 work account and everything else. So it was really confusing. I'm just like, wow, man, I wish it was almost there. But I'm sure it will be there in the second version. Yeah.

And I think that's why a lot of people think foldables as a category are going to be stuck in this like spinning the wheels state until Apple makes one. Because if anyone can get adoption of a new form factor and get app developers on track to actually make new things for this stuff, it's a new folding iPhone, right? make new things for this stuff. It's a new folding iPhone, right? And so that's been like the question is, will foldables ever really take off without Apple jumping in? And if Apple finally does jump in, is that the inflection point where now this is the future of the, or not even the future, is this a new form factor we all suddenly want? That's about all I had to say about that. I just don't know when they're going to make one or if they're going to jump in, but we'll find out. We'll see. I'm excited about it. Yeah.

Another thing you guys mentioned was, well, this is another segue I was going to make a while ago, but you talked about Nvidia wouldn't really hold back a card or a new development if they thought they could just sell it now and you know maybe some other announcement comes out and then it's a good time to drop it they're not really necessarily waiting but something that made me think of was tesla and the plaid model s announcement and i didn't think about this too much but if you if you haven't seen tesla announced the plaid model s which is a triple motor model s with a zero zero to 60 in sub two seconds allegedly 520 mile range 200 mile an hour top speed all this crazy stuff sub nine second quarter mile but it conveniently was announced at battery day right after lucid air

announced their four-door luxury 150 000 sedan which had, which had a 517-mile range and a slightly faster 0-60 than the old Model S. So people are thinking like, oh yeah, Tesla conveniently, right after Lucid's announcement, announced that they're going to one-up them with their Plaid Model S. I just thought that was fascinating. But do you guys think about electric cars at all or are in that world? I pre-ordered mine. Oh.

Instantly, yeah. Plaid Model S? And it's the first Tesla that I think I'm going to purchase. I'm a big car guy, first of all. So, like, you know, we drove it in the M5 competition edition. Like, I've been racing pretty much since I was 16 years old. You know, because I'm a car guy, it's not just the performance, it's the full picture here, right?

I need the handling, I need the interior to be good. I need everything to kind of, like if there's panel gaps in my car, like it's, you know, I'm the guy that buys a brand new car and takes it to a detailer to actually do a paint correction and ceramic coating. So are Teslas a nightmare then? Or worrisome at least. It would really bother the crap out of me if i bought a brand new p100 yeah and there's like

crazy panel gaps all over the place my car has panel gaps yeah see so but like it would drive me nuts it's such a i love this world i'm glad you okay so i i always think like okay there's two types of people buying this car one people who just like think it's a great car, fun to drive. You're going to launch it and you're going to floor it and your guts are going to go in the back of your spine and you're going to be like, this is the greatest thing ever. Or there's people who are like, interesting, okay, I have a choice between a couple other $90,000 sedans and maybe I'll consider this one. And then they sit in a Porsche BMW and they're like never mind this isn't the same thing I don't want a Tesla it's nowhere near what I want and I've always been firmly in camp one trying to understand camp two uh there's you know and as as I'm getting older I

I really don't care about the the zero to sixty or the quarter mile I care about the the full experience you're like everyday experience well that's all plaid model s is really gonna be right you know that's the funny part right so i i read this the the specs on the on the plaid i'm like oh my god like sub nine seconds i i'm gonna buy this car and i'm gonna rip all my friends apart and when i can when i can race on a quarter mile so um it'll it'll probably be like my daily driver. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to that one. And I'm going to be okay with the panel gaps

if I have 1,100 horsepower. That's, yeah. Does it overpower the panel gaps and paint correction that you have to do if you're like burning up 9.8 seconds? I think so. 8.8 seconds. I mean, there's so many questions i mean

because like uh being that i'm you know i used to drag race a lot like the tire can spin on the rim you guys realize that can happen and something with 1100 horsepower like is tesla gonna be lock the the tires and the wheels to make that work and make it safe like there's so much there's so many questions in my mind right now about that car that i'm like i gotta pre-order it and i gotta get it because it's gonna be the biggest death trap ever or it's gonna be like the greatest thing ever that's actually one of the first things i thought when i saw the the roadster 2 that they're gonna do with the spacex package i'm like you're gonna sell this to real people have you seen people drive in new jersey like that's a questionable

imagine the parkway with the roadsters on it that's gonna be so but yeah so they're gonna have this crazy spec in the hands of regular maybe when you guys get it i'll have to come by and and give it test drive because i know i'm i'm teetering i really want to i want to pull the trigger i know i want to wait to roadster but also also, come on, 0 to 60 in 1.9. It's ridiculous. And I just had a baby, so I need that backseat. That Roadster is just too gorgeous and no backseat on that one. But I think that's going to be my first Tesla, I'm pretty sure.

That's a fun first one. Yeah. Do you care about autopilot at all? Because I know I like driving, and so I have autopilot, and I very rarely use it. It's mostly a let me just let it hold the lane for a minute while I grab something from my backpack next to me type of thing. So I do, and I use it every day in my BMW. It's not full autopilot. We don't have the full feature set up from what Tesla has,

but it has like a lane assist and decelerates the car, et cetera. And I use that in traffic every day. Traffic, yeah. Yeah, so it's like, and not that I'm like on my phone or anything like that, but I actually do use that. I think it makes just the commute a little bit easier. And I think I'll definitely use autopilot.

Definitely. All right. We've chatted for a little bit. Let's take a quick break here. We'll come back. We'll dive into the weeds podcast style on the new 30 series. I've been calling it the 3000 series, but it's the 30 series for sure. Be right back.

We'll be right back. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM, a sportsbook worth a slam dunk and authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

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you've had these new cards longer than anyone else I know. Instead of just going through benchmarks, because I mean, this is a podcast, you could go look at a video and look at the charts and those are exciting. But I think the crazy part about this new set of cards is NVIDIA themselves have said, and we've all observed

that it's one of the biggest performance jumps in their lineups in a long time and the fun part about that isn't just the frame rate numbers but what you can actually do because of that performance jump what that actually gives you the power to do so let's just dive into that i feel like we can we can go over some like you know very basic numbers and benchmark stuff but what do you guys what do you find the most impressive from what you found from these cards so it honestly like the it's the truth this is the biggest generational jump i have ever seen um from one generation to the next i mean you're talking about like the 3080 compared to a 2080 right 75. 75 to 100% performance increase. You just don't see that in tech usually.

Never. Yeah. Like 30% or more increase over the 2080 Ti, like the high-end card that they had last generation, right? And so that is insanely impressive, especially in the context of the other stuff that we talked about. I've honestly, I mean,

you've been doing this longer than I have, Wallace, but I've never seen this happen before. The only, the closest to this generation drop was the 10 series. That was, and I see it by the demand, right, for our product. Like people tend to hold onto their PCs for around like three years.

But whenever there's like a new drop like this, people just don't care if they had a 20 series or a 10 series or a nine series, whatever. They just want it, right? So it's, you know, some companies, we call it incrementalism. They suffer a case of incrementalism. And this is one of those times where...

Sorry, I had a cough. I didn't hear that. Some places, this is one of those times where where Nvidia's just saying like, hey, let's just put it all on the table and let's just give the people what they want. And they delivered, man. I have a question about that.

Why don't they do that every time? Because just the question of like, I always, in the phone world, it's always like, you know, Apple or whoever, insert company here, they made this phone, but you can tell they didn't go all out. You can tell they held some things back

so the next generation, they could make another improvement. You can tell they didn't put in this, you know, hole punch camera so they could do it next year. Is that real? Do you think there's companies who are going, we could do this, but let's not do it yet. We'll hold it for next year? Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to specifically point out any company in particular, but it's a business case, right? If there's no competition and you have no reason to just launch your best this year

and you can extend that into a roadmap that's going to last you three to five years and you're going to continue to bring revenue back in, I actually respect that because I run a company and I employ people and you don't need to, you don't need to. It just comes down to being a business case now um you know but from time to time you will get drops like this new you know 30 series that's just like you know blows everybody's minds i mean the other day i was having lunch with my brother and the waiter is like he saw the shirt he saw the minger shirt right and he saw the logo he's like oh my god that's the gaming company right i'm like oh yeah it is he's like oh i bought a mouse pad from

microcenter with that with that from that company i'm like cool he's like dude i my God, that's the gaming company, right? I'm like, oh yeah, it is. He's like, oh, I bought a mouse pad from Micro Center with that, from that company. I'm like, cool. He's like, dude, I can't get the 30 series. I'm like, what? Like, you're, you want a 30 series? Like, it's so mainstream now. People everywhere.

Everywhere, like I would never, especially in New Jersey. Like you see people having conversations when you're on the West Coast about like really hardcore tech, but like in New Jersey, like it see people having conversations when you're on the West Coast about like really hardcore tech. But like in New Jersey, like it's not really that common for like everyone to want a 36 and for people to line up outside of a micro center

and sleep there for a video card. I've seen it for consoles. I've heard about that. It's nuts. So people on the East Coast lining up outside of a store for a video card. That is wild. I've only ever, by the way,

waited in line for one piece of tech ever in my life outside of a store for a video card. That is wild. I've only ever, by the way, waited in line for one piece of tech ever in my life outside of a store. And that was the Galaxy Nexus on Verizon in the early 2000s. That phone had a line outside the Verizon store in Hoboken and I waited before class to go get that phone. Anyway,

but yeah, so you're seeing this trickle out into mainstream everywhere. It's incredible. You know, my phone has not blown up like this in a GPU launch ever. Like I've had people that say, dude, remember me from high school? Like, can you hook me up with a difference? Oh no. Like it's my, on the day of launch, like my Facebook messenger and my phone, like text

message, it was just incredible. Yeah, me too. Me too. Right? It's been crazy. The thing too that I think is important to kind of think about though too, when you compare my phone like text messages it was just incredible yeah me too me too right it's been crazy the thing too that i think is important to kind of think about though too when you compare like 20 series to 30 series is i think the average person undervalues the amount of research and development

nvidia puts into their products and how big of a deal it was with 20 series that they came out with the first ray tracing solution for real time ever in this space right and bringing the power of ai to the graphics cards right so it's we we do like i love talking about performance and i'm excited to get into that right but it's more than that when it comes to what your game looks like right and i think it's easy to get away from that and be like oh oh, well, performance from generation to generation necessarily. But RTX was a huge deal. You're seeing the consoles are coming out and they're talking about ray tracing and

PC gamers have been doing this for over two years at this point. So it's not marginal and it's an important way to frame the way you think about generational differences, I think. Yeah, look, think of it this way. The guys who purchase an RTX 20 series, they're financing the 30 series, right? It's almost like when Elon Musk says that the Model S buyers are financing the Model 3 buyers, right? Right.

There's an immense amount of investment that needs to be made to achieve what they achieved. Yeah. they need, there's an immense amount of investment that needs to be made to achieve what they achieved. So, yeah. So when, so these people who are going to get these cards now, what can they expect to, let's say someone now has a 2080 Ti and they get a 3080. Are they going to suddenly be able to play 4K at twice the frame rate or are they going to suddenly see much more detail in their games? What's the, say, what's the ideal customer of the 3080?

So I think there's a couple of different ways to kind of look at it, right? So the 3080 is going to enable you to do a couple things. It's going to enable you to play high resolution games at higher frame rates. So if you look at the previous generations, you're able to play at 4k, but you're not able to play on a high refresh rate 4k monitor, right? You're trying to hit playable frame rates in those games, especially when you're talking about enabling ray tracing on it. And so when you look at the scores and the performance you're getting, this is basically allowing you to play, scores and the performance you're getting, this is basically allowing you to play in a lot of cases over a hundred frames a second at 4k. So, you know, the 3090, which was, um, which is focused on like the bleeding edge, right? 8k and also content creators, to be honest, because it's a,

got a ton of VRAM on it. The, the 3090 is, is a beast you're you're talking about like here are some examples at 4k of frame rates that you're going to get on the 3090 okay so uh death stranding you're going to get like over 120 frames a second um you're going to get uh in project cars which i know you're a big fan of that's my my game, yeah. Over 120 frames a second. Beautiful. Control, as an example with RTX, you're going to get over 60 frames a second. So these are big deals, right?

You're able to play single-player games that have RTX and look beautiful at 4K at great frame rates. And you're going to be able to play over on high refresh rates at 4k and then that doesn't even include now we're talking about 1440p and now we're talking about way higher frame rates for competitive titles right and so it makes a difference not just in like the oh you know i get to talk about how cool it is that i'm at this frame rate right but from our previous conversation like it makes you more competitive you're going to get higher frames

per second it allows you to play competitively and not have to worry about like oh well i want to be good at valorant or i want to be good at um you know a competitive game and i'm going to have to play it at 1080p because 1080p all low settings on everything to just make sure you get like precisely wild but this this huge generational increase in performance enables you to do that with the fidelity which is a really big deal and then not even alone talking about the new experience that 8k is that the 3090 enables you to do, which is you have to kind of see it to believe like, wow, this looks great. It's really hard to explain to someone in words the difference between 4K and 8K.

Whether it's a game or a video or whatever, I can say the word detail and fidelity and sharpness and clarity all I want, but like you kind of just have to see it. As far as I can tell, there's no real way to explain it other than that. Do you think there's a generation of 8K gamers that's going to start like now that will, you know, that will be enabled by this, these new cards that would not have existed before? Like is 8K gaming a real future now? Absolutely. Because it's real. I mean, you're hitting true playable frame rates in 8K.

Right? Now like, obviously that's the niche of the niche of the niche, right? I mean, you need a really expensive monitor or a $30,000 LG television to be able to experience it like you should. But yeah, I mean, you're gonna see a a lot more content on platforms like YouTube and AK now. You're going to see...

If they can publish and process. Yeah, it's going to take a month to process. Yeah, it'll be a while. But it's real. It works. It's not like a corner case where NVIDIA says, hey, try this in this specific setting the specific game for it to work like you know you have a television you have a 3090 you have a

good pc uh you know geforce experience would automatically optimize your settings for your ak experience and boom you're playing an ak yeah yeah i think what's you say like the niche of the niche of the niche and like you have to have an ak monitor and all this stuff but another thing that's super interesting about the 30 series is the pricing on it which has now gone down compared to everything last year was 3080 starting at like 699 yep and 3090 is still 1500 bucks but like what was the 20 series titan oh it was it was way it was like over two way way more than that and no you're right like it's it it totally has changed the entire landscape that as we know it right the amount of performance for dollar you're getting is absolutely ridiculous and it's kind of unheard

of right yeah and the timing is right too man like this this whole covid thing really accelerated you know pc gaming i mean there's so many new people coming into the space right now that just stayed home for three four five six months that we know the tam has expand expanded like exponentially uh for us so it's uh you know on top of that nvidia drops the 30 series and boom you know it's just this this whole new explosion yeah it's making it way more accessible because then i mean we've only talked about the 80 and the 90 but there are plenty of people out there who are getting in that can buy a 30 60 or something and it's still going to be incredible they announced a 30 70 right and and as part of the announcement and that that you're exactly right like that, I think based on their slides, is around close to 2080 Ti performance

for like $500 in the presentation. Like, and we were all gushing over the 2080 Ti for the last two years. So like, that's amazing. And that's where a lot of PC gamers are kind of configuring PCs. Like $1,500, like somewhere in that range is really a sweet spot

for PC gaming right now. And that's going to drive at 1440p. You know, that that's amazing. Yeah, that's a good question. So I know in smartphones, I just keep relating it back to what I know best. But like, there's a whole lot of action at this like mid range four or five $600 phone price where like, if you look at the numbers sure there's a lot of enthusiasts and a lot of youtube views on the 1200 s20 ultra or whatever but at the end of the day most people are buying much cheaper mid-range mid-price phones so you guys have the best perspective of like what are people speccing out their pcs price wise what's the biggest volume for that and then what is the difference between last gen

Playability from that price and this gen playability at that price I'm gonna get into the details. So I you know for for main gear specifically RASP is around like between 25 and $3,000 like your average. That's that's my average card. Yeah But I would say that if you're a DIYer, you're probably in that range of what Ron said. Like $1,500 to $2,000. $1,500 to $2,000. Yeah. Yeah. That's where you get all the sweet stuff.

Yeah. You're not overpaying and you're getting a really good bang for the buck. Okay. Right? So the 2060, the 3060, that's not announced, but whatever, it's going to come out next. It's going to replace 2060, the 3060, or what's unannounced, but whatever, it's going to come out next. It's going to replace 2060. It will probably be the best bang for the buck that you can get. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and it all, you know, it depends on like what you're looking for, right? So there's people who want a really good 1080p level of performance, right? Where it's still at 1080p looks better than a console because you're getting more bells and whistles like um higher ray tracing fidelity and you got to remember like a lot of these things are are like sliders so like yeah the new consoles are going to support

ray tracing but if you look at a ray tracing game on the pc it's not like oh on or off there's there's components to ray tracing levels to this there's there's levels right there's there's shadow there's um there's ambient lighting there's reflections right and so just because the console supports it like it might be just like oh there's reflections in this game right right but you play it on the pc and you get all of the checkboxes. So you have to remember that. It's even independent from resolution. And I'm sure you know this a little bit more,

but there's various fidelity ranges on the quality that you get on a PC from, you know, what is the quality of the textures and, you know, god rays and all these cool things. This holiday season, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health is counting on your support. CAMH is on a mission to make better mental health care for all a reality. And they've made incredible strides forward, breaking down stigma, improving access to care, and pioneering research breakthroughs. But now is the time to aim even higher. You can help create a world where no one is left behind.

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and machine learning may affect your business and how to best seize this new opportunity. So you can download the CFO's Guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash waveform the guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash waveform netsuite.com slash waveform right yeah you like you unlock you like your games but i feel like when you're especially if you're building a computer you just have that secondary like nerdiness of just like I get to make all these changes myself, which sometimes could go very poorly. I'm just no, I'm sorry. I just I'm just remembering one of my early PC gaming experiences. So this is really dumb, but I'm going to tell it anyway.

So I I've only played so many PC games. I played a lot of Need for Speed back in the day. But there is this Tiger Woods PGA tour game you could play on pc and i had like this like mid-range gpu no idea what it was like i had maybe a thousand dollar computer and i could play the tiger woods game and it would load the golf course but the character was this like blocky bunch of like vectors it didn't look like a human it looked like a model basically you couldn't tell it was a human so in this game you could like sort of customize the character and like add hair color and change skin tone or whatever and so i did that anyway completely unable to see this character later maybe a year later i finally got a better gpu

installed it in the system and i was able to play the game and see the character i designed and see him actually golf for the first time and it looked like an alien of course because i didn't know any of the sliders i was dragging were doing but i finally got to play the game and see the golf club and the human wearing clothes and not like some vector and i'm just uh i'm picturing someone getting a 3080 like seeing something for the first time like whoa i had no idea this is what this thing looked like in this game yeah if you're coming from like a previous like a like a maybe you know nine series or something or eight series it's gonna look different i mean it's literally it's so it's like i think it's double the performance of a 1080 Ti, which I think a lot of people might be coming from, right?

So that's insanity, right? That's super crazy. And the other thing about it too, right, is what a PC game looks like is a moving target. So as we see consoles getting more powerful, it means that the PC is just going to go beyond that which is a huge deal and we're going to just see

constant growth in how, look at Flight Simulator the game is gorgeous and pushed the boundaries, I think the Crytek guys announced that like Crysis is becoming the game again they're remastering Cry crisis and it's going to be

like impossible to run again like continually pushing that fidelity forward minus has so much content can it run crisis all over again yeah no that's yeah i i pictured this world of like you know three year old card or three generation old card gamers like getting the 3080 and or 3090 whatever and just unlocking this whole new world in the same games they've been playing and having way more fun and that's awesome i'm like pumped for people that have a nine and ten series right now and getting to upgrade and not just getting the like what do they say usually like if you can get a 30% boost, that's probably worth paying the money for an upgrade. And to get like a 200% over a 1080 Ti is like...

Your computer is just not even going to feel the same anymore. You're like dropping a Hemi and a Ford Focus or something. It's just going to explode. That's a good point because most people won't upgrade their monitors. Yeah. Right? So you have to do the full package.

You have to balance the monitor and actually build a balanced system around the GPU that you're upgrading to. Yeah. But it's also cheaper now too. So you've got a little extra pocket money to go. Not that a... Nice monitors are much more expensive but

they're also becoming way more like reasonable like i the when we bought when you guys made us that the omen we bought a nice monitor for it i think it was like an asus uh 1440 like 140 hertz which was not that easy to find then and uh now that's like absolutely no problem and we're talking about 4k stuff in 144 we're talking about 240 hertz and now potentially 300 plus like that's just yeah we're 1080s almost completely dead it feels like even even when you're seeing like shroud and these big streamers and professionals starting to play at 1440 who were just those are the same people who were using crts as long as possible like in csgo and like it was real tough

to switch to a regular like a newer monitor now like they're finally making that switch in 1080s just gonna be out the door you know you talk about like seeing a game like almost new again i felt that way with, and it seems simple, but Minecraft coming out in RTX and being able to go back to previous worlds that I had made. And it was like almost seeing them for the first time with the realistic lighting and getting to walk around in an environment

that looked like almost completely different and new because of being able to do those kinds of lighting effects. So it can be so dramatic and really change the immersion and experience that you have with a game. Yeah, so I have a good question maybe to end on. So we all know about Moore's Law and we know about tech keeps getting better every year

and video in these companies with these huge improvements. And now we're getting to the point where like, you know, we talk about frame rates going from 60 to 120 to 240 to 300 something, approaching the limit of what we can even notice a difference. And then resolutions too, getting from 1080 to 1440 to 4K to 8K. Is there an end game to like realism before you have to go to vr to feel a difference like when i get to 8k 240 fps gaming are we we don't need 16k gaming right like is that is that a weird question it's not um and you we need it but But like, you know, the road to 1,000 hertz monitors, right? Yeah. Like that's kind of what we talk about.

And, you know, just 4K 1,000 hertz, 8K 1,000 hertz. Like it's just going to keep on just getting better and better. And, you know, it comes down to the manufacturing process. I mean, I think NVIDIA is at 8 nanometer right now. And then Big Navi, they're talking about maybe possibly being seven or whatever that will become 3D, right? There's just so much, I mean, I don't think, we have 15, 20 years, put it that way.

And we'll get there and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Absolutely. Well, and then like, it's not even just about like resolution, it's not, it's not even just about like resolution. It's about new technologies in actually creating the image on screen to dramatically changing it. So like there's tons of room for innovation when it comes to basic things like look, look what a video is done with the, the streaming stuff that they've done in broadcast where you can have you can have your graphics card basically removing background noise in your room on a zoom call rtx on baby that's amazing right and so i think you'll see more of that like background elimination when

you're streaming and that stuff's become more important to the average gamer a lot more people are becoming content creators, not necessarily professionally, but they're streaming to their friends. That's part of how they interact with gaming. And gaming's kind of moved past just kind of sitting on your couch or at your desk alone and playing a game. So there's a lot to look at

at how hardware can push that forward in growth. And that's where I think the sky's the limit we don't even i would have never thought my graphics card would remove background noise like ever right but now i'm like okay that's amazing and especially given the circumstances right now like that's like fantastic to have so it makes a lot of sense right you have so much computational horsepower sitting there yeah what can you do with it like what's the limits specialize yeah and even even the difference now between upscaling because you talked about developers before developers have to make their games more detailed and they can fit bigger assets and better textures and all this stuff in the games too so that's going to get

better that realism will reach new levels as the tech continues to improve and everything gets better so that's why it's fun being in tech. Everything just keeps getting better. Guys, thank you so much for joining me on the Waveform podcast. It was a blast. I think anytime we can get guests in the studio, obviously, you know, having this, look at this nice socially distanced setup we have going on here. It's a fun time.

This is the first podcast recorded with the new acoustic panels behind me. It looks awesome. It's really cool. Yeah, so thanks for acoustic panels behind me. It looks awesome. It's really cool. Yeah, so thanks for joining us for this. Testing it out. Testing it out. Hopefully it sounds good. And anybody have any questions, you guys can find these guys on Twitter,

at MainGear, but you guys also have your own Twitters, right? Yeah, we're at MainGear everywhere as a company. Perfect. So it's nice and easy to find. Yeah. And just look for me, Wallace Samples on Twitter. Yeah, we'll put both you guys in the show notes and Main gear and everything just i am ron reed everywhere so perfect awesome thanks again and uh we'll catch you guys in the next episode peace waveform is brought to you in part

with studio 71 and our intro outro music was created by cameron barlow