Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - Tesla’s Full Self Driving Rollout with Quinn from Snazzy Labs

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

This week Marques and Andrew talk about the new Amazon Astro robot for a bit before getting Quinn from Snazzy Labs on the phone to dig deep into the Tesla FSD beta rollout. they also talk about the new Rivian R1T that Quinn got to drive. It's a fun one! Links: https://twitter.com/wvfrm https://twitter.com/mkbhd https://twitter.com/andymanganelli https://twitter.com/SnazzyQ https://twitter.com/AdamLukas17 https://www.instagram.com/wvfrmpodcast/ shop.mkbhd.com https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Quinns Rivian R1T video: https://bit.ly/2ZNq5Lm Amazon Astro (Verge): https://bit.ly/2Wrt2jh Amazon Astro (Vice): https://bit.ly/3mdlSYR Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Marques. And I'm Andrew. And in today's episode, we're gonna bring on a special guest. We have Quinn from Snazzy Labs. He's gonna be joining me to talk about Tesla's full self-driving beta, the rollout, how it's going, this new thing with the safety score in the app and how they're deciding who gets it first, despite who's already paid for it. We'll be getting on that in a little bit.

But first, Andrew, you wanted to rant about something for a little bit. I did, yeah. So, like, obviously really excited for Quinn to come on. I think this whole full self-driving rollout's kind of interesting. Like, actually really interesting. There's a lot going way more than just full self-driving. But

anyways, we can't not talk about Amazon Astro. Ah, yes. The robot. Yeah. So, Amazon had an event and they released a couple different things. If you missed it you didn't miss very much. But one thing they did

release is called Astro and we have to talk about it mostly because if you search for Astro right now the top headline is a Verge article called

Amazon Astro is terrible and will throw itself downstairs developers reportedly claim. I can't believe it. It's so That's brutal. I think that's my favorite headline of 2021 so far.

Yeah, for sure. So we can't not talk about this. Okay, so we've done a video on robots in the homes before. I did a video all about the Tesla bot, which is a totally different ballpark of what it actually is trying to be. But the idea is it's an assistant robot that helps you around in your house. So Amazon is making one. It's called Astro.

It's about two feet tall. It looks kind of like a screen on wheels, basically. It's got eyes on the screen. It's got a little periscope camera that can telescope up out of the top to look around. So basically, it basically acts like an iPad on wheels, if you will. Yeah, the main thing here is it has wheels. And also, if you're an audio listener and you're taking that description Marquez said

and you're thinking like, hmm, this doesn't sound like it makes a lot of sense. You're probably right. You're picturing exactly what it is it's very basic i mean this reminds me of it reminds me of every robot that you see at ces which is like a little like rectangle on wheels basically that rolls around has maybe like a single purpose and does a couple things that's basically like you said it has two main wheels on the front it looks like it has like a little rotating wheel on the back so it can you know it's mostly driving it can pivot yeah and then it has

like yeah the screen coming off the top of it that can kind of flex up and down and turn left and right a little bit and it looks like the screen mostly just shows eyes which to make it look like a like a little creature almost right to sort of anthropomorphize it a little bit. It's going to come out this year. This is the important part that everyone likes to talk about the most is it's going to be about $1,000 for this early beta. The launch price. Yeah, early launch price for it, and then it'll be about $1,400, $1,500 after that.

So it's real. It's coming out. You'll be able to buy one. Yes. What does it do? A couple things, really? Yeah, I think there's a lot of questions like, why would you ever want this?

I think the easiest way to go about this is I wrote down a bunch of ways Amazon claimed to use it. And then let's just go through it one by one and think of if we would ever use it that way. Yeah, there's a demo video on Amazon's YouTube channel. I highly suggest watching it. It's like two minutes long it's really funny it's it's almost like a futuristic like cringy uh interpretation of what the future may look like if we never got if we were imagining the future 20 years ago i feel like exactly maybe it would feel

futuristic but um worth watching for sure yeah um so's see. Let's go through some of the things that Amazon claims it will do. So number one, we have monitor and kind of home security. So it would link up with your ring protection subscription and can kind of patrol around your house, use its cameras. If it notices anything different, it can send you alerts. If it notices people that it doesn't recognize, it can send you alerts. But basically just instead of having a bunch of different security cams now you have one thing rolling around all night right so the key distinction here is it's on wheels it is technically mobile and can move around yes but obviously it can't go up and down stairs or even

i think there is a line on their site about like if you have a floor interruption of over three centimeters it will not go over it so it needs to be in that one area of your house but this is I think the actual area where I could see it being the most useful is instead of having three security cameras in three different rooms at three different doors you have one and it can respond to sounds if it hears something around the house. It can drive over to it. I guess kind of the thing is I could buy three security cameras for a fraction of the cost of this thing,

which is where I kind of see the issue with that. And the three-centimeter floor separator, like separating floors is super common. I mean, I live in a ranch, and we have one room that has two stairs that you have to go down into it, which goes to our main door. We have multiple floor separators.

There's carpet, there's hardwood, there's tile. Yeah, carpets. I don't know how well it would go on all those. And that's in a ranch. A lot of people live in two-story houses where this, now half of the house is off-limits. Yeah, I guess you put it on the ground floor where someone could get in.

Yeah, yeah, that would make the most sense. But okay, it does more than just security cameras though. So what is the next thing? They also say for keeping tabs on elderly people or elderly or young family members. Technically true? Yeah, kind of. I mean, if you wanted to pay attention to your kids.

I don't know. I could kind of see this here where your kids are getting to that age where maybe you're not sure if you want to leave them home alone and now you have something you can keep an eye on them. Or elderly, again, an elderly family member,

maybe they fall down and it notices that. But again, a security camera in every room would still probably be cheaper and just as efficient here. The other thing is, it's a camera, it's an Alexa, it's a, it's microphones. You can just get an Alexa with a screen and put it in a room. So the difference here being it's on wheels and can do some unique things like walk from room to

room and pop up a Periscope camera, follow people around. That's one of the things in the video. Hey, a word, follow me. And it follows you to the next room. That's like kind of a neat bonus, but something that most of the time you're probably not gonna use. So here's the thing. I have two things here about that involve following. One, I kid you not, it actually says this.

It can follow you around to play podcasts or music. Okay. Could you ever see yourself saying, hey, Astro, I'm listening to this podcast. Please follow me around the house while I do different things. Or would you put on a pair of headphones? I would either use a speaker and turn it up in the middle of the room, or yeah, I would use my headphones.

And then the other one, it makes a little more sense, but video chat, it can follow you around. And actually they said kind of like Facebook portal or kind of like center stage, I think. Yes. Now, is it following you with the Periscope camera or are you talking to people? That's what I was imagining is because like,

oh yeah, it's a good idea. It's going to be this nice little camera that follows me around. Literally in RetroTech, we had a camera that does this where it was a robot on wheels and you would say, I think it was Jiba, whatever it was. It said, follow me. And I'd walk around and it had the sickest video of the back of my knees. As I walked around, it would just keep up with the back of my knees and my heels would always be in the middle of the frame. And it wasn't the most useful video. So I imagine this would point up, probably pop out the camera

to eye level, hopefully. If like you really want to feel powerful over the people you're video chatting with and have them feel like an ant all the time yeah then i could kind of see this but again i just i don't see the purpose of that just use your phone use facetime stand still when you're video chatting with someone yeah i'm not totally sure about that um so it also has a little tray in the back of it that can be you can put a cup holder in it yeah so it can deliver a water bottle or something to someone in another room yeah some small items some keys so you're in one so think so you're in one room yep someone goes hey pass me a water bottle and you go i know what i'll do you call over the robot you put it in the, and you send it over to the next room.

Not up some stairs. Or floor dividers. No floor dividers, but around the corner into the next room, it can bring them that water bottle for you. Hey, if you've got that $1,000, that's pretty good. I can honestly say that I don't think the security cameras or my headphones or anything can do that so kudos i guess credit where credit is due but if you're talking about this and like i don't i i was saying when we first saw this we saw that video of it delivering the water bottle and we were all just laughing it seems so ridiculous because you still have to have someone get the water bottle right put it in the cup holder and then it did that terrible thing where

like it drove up to the person on the couch looked at him and then like spun itself around super there was like a solid felt like two minutes between it being like within three feet of the person and actually delivering the water bottle because i had to look and then back up yeah yeah it does a whole maneuver to deliver the water to you. It feels so unnecessary. I just, now I thought, what if your refrigerator had a little docking station and then it could vending machine beverages into it. Straight into a cup. So then at least I'm home alone. I'm on the couch, not separated by stairs or floor dividers. And I want a soda or a beer or water. not separated by stairs or floor dividers and I want a soda or a beer or a water,

now at least it will get it for me. Yeah, you can say, Astro, bring me a water and it will leave the room and come back with the water with no other human intervention. That would be kind of neat. That would be kind of neat.

It would be. This is all just in the world of general purpose robots where we've talked about, well, do you want a general purpose robot that does a bunch of different things or do you want specific robots to do one thing well at a time? And we keep mentioning like

okay, I could just use headphones or okay, I could just use security cameras. So in theory, this one Astro robot is replacing security cameras, headphones, a person to bring you water, a couple other small tasks like that. As long as you water a couple other small tasks like that

as long as you want a super subpar performance in all of those aspects it doesn't do any one of those things amazingly well that's kind of astro I have a Roomba by the way it's never thrown itself downstairs so I will bring up this is from a Vice article of a couple of the developers who said a

few things I can go over. Um, Amazon did respond to this saying it may, it's probably outdated information. So I just want to have that disclaimer here, but I can't not talk about it of literal developer saying that if quote unquote presented the opportunity, it will throw itself downstairs. That's probably the biggest selling point I've seen so far because I just want to watch a robot make the pure decision of tossing itself down the stairs. But this Vice article had a bunch of different things from people who worked on this that said it's extremely fragile.

It has thrown itself downstairs. It's just like they don't really see the point of it, it seems to be. Yeah. The question I asked on Twitter is— Okay, real question. What is the ideal home robot? If such a thing even exists, what is it? I don't know.

Do you even want a robot in your home? Totally fair question. Curious what your thoughts are. I made this, I had this tweet just having a picture of the Tesla bot next to this and everyone goes, well, one of them is a human in a suit and doesn't exist and the other one is real. And I'm like, okay, yeah, no, that's a really good point. The Tesla bot

is years and years away, super ambitious. The other is it has a price tag, it's going to come out this year. Which would you rather have or would you rather have something somewhere in between? And I think the right answer to like a decent home general purpose

robot is probably somewhere in between and probably doesn't come out right now. It's probably not very good yet. But I don't know that it has to get all the way to the point where it walks on two legs and has hands with fingers. It's probably somewhere in between. Here's my thing.

I think the wheels are the biggest limiting factor on this. If somehow this could be exact, I mean, like, listen, in a perfect situation like an apartment that has perfectly smooth floors over everywhere, then this might make a little more sense. Like it does do, I think the patrolling option's neat. I think being able to control the patrolling options cool too. So you can go see a couple of things if you're away from your house.

But the fact that it has wheels just is so limiting. If this had four legs, similar to a mini spot and had everything it did, I think it would be much, much, much more reasonable. It would probably cost way more money, but it would do what it's supposed to do and be able to climb stairs or not trip over things. Yeah. But one other thing here that I want to add that one of the developers also said is it is pretty poor at detecting faces and recognizing people, which one of the things it's supposed to do is if it recognizes somebody in the house that it doesn't know it's supposed to follow it in its patrolling right aspect except if it's not very good at figuring that out then it just starts following people it doesn't know which could be you in your home and now you just

have this thing like nipping at your heels all the time following you around the house it um yeah i i think like in general to me this just feels like it's Amazon camera in your house tracking you, looking at your face all the time, being able to have a camera anywhere in your house unless there's stairs or a floor divider. Yeah, I think the thing that comes back to it is we've watched over the years all these companies try and attempt various ways

to get their machine learning into your home. So we have Google and we have Google assistant, and now we have them practically giving away like home minis and it's Google assisting your phone. And there's all these different ways for them to get it, this ambient computing into your home. Yeah. Uh, Amazon's got Alexa. They may be want a camera in your home now, and people aren't going to buy the camera on the Alexa, but maybe they'll buy Astro and they'll start getting all this information. And this is just another, like Facebook made that portal thing, which is like, okay, if you want a Facebook camera in your home, there's that option. But like, this is another way for Amazon to get microphone and cameras in your home and literally following you around. So if

that's something you'd be into, you might get some convenience back out of it, which is the goal, but that's kind of the way I see it at this point in time. Yeah. And Amazon, I believe they've had some controversy with their ring stuff and taking data and everything like that. So I would just be super careful with this. I think my biggest thing is you've mentioned like, obviously everyone wants to put something in our home that can hear us and sell us stuff. Uh, you know, generally you save on that though. Like they understand that's what it is. So a Google home mini or an echo dot or stuff like that are super cheap and you're getting it. I'm paying, if I missed the launch on this, I'm paying

$1,500 for something that can't really do much and it's just tracking me with the camera potentially anywhere in my house yeah follows you around yeah don't we'll see i want i i would still like to try and see like how well it works in person i don't know if i'll bring it home but i'll have it in the studio and just see what it does but like how much of your house could it cover um well one floor it wouldn't go up or down any stairs. Because you have a basement also that you're in pretty often, and it has an entryway there as well.

Right, in the garage. But it would just have to roam around the ground floor, basically. So we are now going to, if you have this, you're going to keep all your valuables on the first floor? Or, yeah. Yeah, basically. Yeah, well. Or have three of them.

That's all we know about it so far. Yeah, you can get three of them. You can get one on every floor. On every floor. As long as it doesn't toss itself down the stairs. Yeah, and then they'll all be on one floor together. That's Astro. Honestly, when I heard the name Astro, I pictured,

you know the demo game for the PS5, Astro's World? For sure. I pictured that Astro robot, which is also like a little humanoid robot with like eyes on a screen and everything. And I was like, oh, that would be cool. This one's more like WALL-E a little bit. Yeah, a little more like WALL-E. And I may have accidentally said Astra somewhere here,

but there's a character in Valorant named Astra. Oh. It's way cooler than the stupid robot thing. Yeah. But yeah, pretty off topic pretty quickly. But if you don't think we gave this a fair shot, sorry, but I don't have we gave this a fair shot sorry but I don't have a lot of optimism for this one to be honest

we'll get one in the studio we'll see eventually we'll make some sort of video I could definitely see at least a studio video coming out of this so let's take a quick break when we come back we'll talk with Quinn and talk about full self driving this whole dashboard of how Tesla's watching us now and seeing evaluating how

we drive. We'll come back in a minute and talk about that. This holiday season, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health is counting on your support. CAMH is on a mission to make better mental health care for all a reality. And they've made incredible strides forward,

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Thanks for the invite. Perfect. We're talking electric car stuff a little bit on this podcast, a lot, a lot on this podcast. Yeah. And I was just watching your Rivian R1T experience video. You're another fellow creator and self-proclaimed car enthusiast, and you probably have more car experience than I do. Oh, I don't know about that. Well, I've done a lot of new cars, but I've only been into cars for like the last four to five years where people who have been into cars for way longer have a much bigger breadth of knowledge. But how was the R1T? You did a video about it.

It was amazing. I came away super impressed. I mean, obviously, there is a long road ahead for this company. I mean, they're just starting production and, you know, making a good car is just start as Tesla has demonstrated. But the car is really good. I mean, the fit and finish and the quality materials is shockingly good. It kind of puts Tesla to shame. Then again, it is in a different price bracket. I mean, these cars fully loaded are $90,000, so they're not cheap at all. Yeah. Yeah. I get excited sometimes by the prototypes that they build and show to us, but then I have to remember that now you have to mass produce it and you have to actually sell it. I'm really hoping deliveries are soon because it seems like they're finally about to turn the corner on that. Yeah, I think they're pumping them out, so that's good. They're hoping to get through their pre-order queue, I think they said, by the end of next year, which seems optimistic. But that would be awesome if they could.

That would be sick. And then we'd have electric trucks on the road. Finally. And you got an order in. What color did you go with? Yeah, I went with the blue. That's not really the color I would have chosen, but a little birdie told me that that's the color they're making the most of and so if I wanted one to maybe

order that color but the in person the yellow one I'm not a yellow car guy but oh man it is beautiful interesting okay I'm gonna keep an eye on that I don't have an order in yet but I might have to all right well we we want to talk a little

bit about what Tesla's been doing lately, which is with their full self-driving. Now, full self-driving in air quotes, because this has been a constant theme of like, all right, coming soon, more people have access to this beta of a feature that maybe almost works. And you've spoken at length about this on Twitter, which I love. Probably since like 2015, I've been paying,

or at least in the cars that I bought, paying for full self-driving. I paid extra for this. And it's finally arrived at this very interesting stage, which is, it is in beta, but it is, you have to request access to the queue that can start using the beta.

And once you request access, you update the app, you update the software on your car, and then it begins tracking how you drive and assessing a safety score. And those with the highest safety score will be the first in line to start using the feature that they paid for already. So there's a lot to break down. Yeah. Uh, first of all, you know, the, the history of like having paid for self-driving a long time ago and still not having access to it. How does that, how does that feel? Have you paid for self-driving before and are you a person interested in it? Yeah. I mean, Tesla has kind of changed the way that they've done this multiple times now, at least in the U S this is still different in Europe, but now there's only one option. So it's either everything or nothing. And that all falls under

the full self-driving umbrella, which costs $10,000 or 200 bucks a month, which is a lot of money. And then when I bought my car and presumably when you bought your cars, there were two different packages. One was called enhanced autopilot and one was called full self-driving and enhanced autopilot that basically has all of the features that Tesla's can do today. So the automatic lane changes, um, the, the hopping on and off the highway, and then the full self-driving package didn't really get any features until a couple years ago when Smart Summon came out where it could drive around the parking lot. And then more recently, it will now stop at traffic lights. But other than that, full self-driving doesn't really do anything yet for the average person. And there's a lot of people that have been agitated, as you mentioned, because since 2015, they've been selling this as a software feature.

And they've kind of been promising. I mean, if you get into the fine print, they're probably not liable. But make no mistake. I mean, they've been saying for years that this is pretty much done. And it's not. And so there's a lot of people that are really frustrated because they've been waiting years for something that hasn't come. Some people like you have sold cars and purchased new ones without ever getting value out of the full self-driving package. And then the worst part of all, and this is the part that makes me mad for other people, is there's people that leased Teslas that paid money for full self-driving on their lease, returned their car, and never realized value for any of that because it just never happened.

And actually, you leased your first Model S, right? Right, yeah, and I did pay extra for it. And you think about these businesses, it's not like businesses get to be successful without thinking really hard about the bottom line and average value you get out of a car. It's like they know what they're doing clearly. And the more, you know,

Tesla might not have ads or marketing the way traditional manufacturers do, but at least people in the company sharing that it seems feature complete and it's clearly getting people to spend a bit more on the cars despite not getting actually more out of the car, which is a weird thing to say about a car

in the software department. But now we're, you know, despite all the tweets about like, oh, three weeks away, it's one week away, whatever, there's finally a button and you can finally request it now. It's real. Now there's been a very, very limited beta

of this full self-driving out there in the world. And there's a small group of people who's actually gotten to use it and have made YouTube videos about it and have had like a little GoPro behind the dash cam of the wheel, like showing what's going on in the car. Have you seen any of these videos of it in action? What do you think of those videos? There's a channel in particular, I think it's AI Driver. Whoever runs the channel does an excellent job because they'll like super impose what the car is seeing in the visualization as they're driving. I mean,

there's a bunch of people that are really creative about how do we show what the car sees and how do we show what it actually does? And so, yeah, I mean, and, and the, the videos are impressive. I mean, the car does drive itself a lot of the time, which is pretty cool. It's certainly not bulletproof. And that's where we get into the kind of endless discussion of, well, where do we draw the line of what do we consider, you know, safe enough that it can kind of take over or what are the edge cases? But I mean, I got to hand them props. It's a real product, kind of of even though not everyone has access to it it's more impressive than what anyone else is doing other than maybe waymo but that's a whole

different technology stack and different oh yeah but yeah yeah no i've been following it because i paid for it now i'm like all right i'm ready like let me get in the beta let me let me see what this is about because right now we did our thousand mile road test and that's the most i've ever used autopilot and i was constantly like very aware of when it would disengage. And getting to the exit on a highway, it would get halfway down the exit ramp, it would count down 500 feet before I disengage, 200 feet before I disengage.

And then it would go, all right, I'm done. You take the wheel. And so I see all these videos of people using the full self-driving beta. It's taking turns across traffic. It's stopping at stoplights, merging with all these complicated ramps and all these things and i'm like all right that's that's pretty impressive but there is a solid amount of uh correction happening when i'll see like some weird you know lines on the road or a bus stop or a curb or something weird comes up and i'll go oh this was a little weird i'll'll just take the wheel and then re-engage it in a second.

And I feel like the metric that they land on the most is how many times do I have to disengage it before I get to my destination? And that number is shrinking and shrinking, and hopefully it's the safest when there's zero. Right. And I think that's maybe why Tesla's been so cautious about this rollout, is obviously they don't want the negative kind of press and the liability of having their full self-driving software crash when someone who's not paying attention is behind the wheel. But it is going to take a while,

because even though the disengagements are low, I mean, I don't know the percentage of miles driven to disengagements occurring, but I'd bet it's probably 90, maybe 95% that the car does it by itself, which is really good. But if you go back years and years and years, that's when Elon's saying, you know, 99% is super easy. It's when you get 99.99999 and you add the nines. And I think he's always said that they need to get to 3.9s before it's good enough. And I mean, they're not even close to 99 right now. But that's why they're doing this, right?

Because they need to gather data. And the more people driving with the software, the more disengagements that happen, the more the system can analyze what went wrong and how will I fix that in the future. So it's working, theoretically. So do you have access? What's your safety score? Well, that's where I'm going. So your point about like them being super careful about who gets access to it and who gets to use it because obviously any mistakes it makes are just going to get picked up and probably make headlines.

So I didn't have access to that early beta. And there's even some notes about like, apparently people who are in that super early small group had to sign a special NDA and only be able to share certain things. And that doesn't look great. But now that it's out there, I figured I'd put myself in the queue. I have a safety score. It's not high enough.

I'll put it that way. Come on, tell us, what is it? It started at like 95. I believe it's currently at 77, which is not great. That would be, what, a C plus? Yeah, you're passing, right? That gets you a degree. Passing.

Maybe not a degree in full self-driving. Yeah. But the idea here is like, all right, so the safer you are as a driver, Yeah. But the idea here is like, all right, so the safer you are as a driver, then the more likely you are to be admitted into this program to test this full self-driving. So I'm like, all right, I guess that does make sense. But then you can actually look through and see exactly how it's evaluating your safety score. Do you have a safety score? I don't because on my Model Y, I didn't actually end up paying for full self-driving. Okay. So there are five things that it's looking at to determine your safety score.

And it's basically a proportion of how many dangerous things happen over like per thousand miles. Sure. The first one is how many forward collision warnings do you get? The second one is how much hard braking do you do? And hard braking is an excess of 0.3 Gs. So, you know, diminishing your vehicle speed by 6.7 miles an hour in one second. You know, it's decently hard braking. I feel like autopilot frequently does hard braking.

I was going to say that. Yeah, all the time. I feel like I'll just get phantom braking that hard. Yeah, yeah. Aggressive turning. So, lateral G is greater than 0.4. So, fun driving. the time i feel like i'll just get phantom breaking that hard yeah um aggressive turning so a lateral g is greater than 0.4 so fun driving fun driving yeah right uh unsafe following distance so anytime you're over 50 miles an hour and your vehicle's headway is less than one second between the guy in front of you good yeah and how many forced autopilot disengagements do you have?

So if you don't touch the wheel after 30 seconds of it bleeping at you, it'll disengage autopilot, and that will ding your score. Turns out most of my score dings are for unsafe following, which if you're just on the highway going highway speed, you should be further technically from the car in front of you. And this is where I think these scores are problematic a little bit. That's based on what the car perceives to be accurate based on what it's looking for. But if you're in New York, your traffic is going to be a lot different than if you're in rural Kansas.

100%. you're in New York, your traffic is going to be a lot different than if you're in rural Kansas. And so the car might think this is not as safe when in reality that might be safe driving for where you are. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen some videos have come up of like specifically things where you can make a decision in real time that would be less safe, that would give you a higher safety score. So for for example you're coming up on a stop sign yeah and you realize that the last second you have to stop do you just roll through the stop sign or you slam on the brakes and get a ding safety score but technically that was safer um or i think someone else is saying like you know somebody some things roll out in front of your car do you just steamroll over them because the car doesn't think about collisions

or acceleration at all versus hitting the brakes? The one I found interesting was like, if someone just cuts you off or hits the brakes in front of you, that's going to ding your close following distance and your heart breaking immediately. And that's not your fault, right. And it's not your fault.

And you were being safe about it because you hit the brakes to not hit them. Right, yeah. Exactly. So it's weird that the car is like making these decisions and doesn't have much context about them. Um, how do you think your safety score would be if you had it turned on right now? Would you perform for the algorithm or would you just drive like however you want? Well, I would probably perform for the algorithm because ultimately I'd want to make a video about it. But, but yeah, I But yeah, I think I would be probably more conscious of how I was driving to hit the score that I wanted that I would actually probably be driving less safely.

And that's where I think, not that I have major criticisms with the idea, but I think they should set a minimum threshold and then kind of roll stuff out based on where people are in the order queue or whatever. I mean, because again, you have people that have purchased this five years ago. And if they've got a 94% safety score and they're starting with everyone who's 100 and then after a couple months 99 and then after a couple months 98, that's going to be tricky and frustrating to those people that feel like they should get access. So I would prefer they say, okay, 90% is the minimum safety score. If you've got that, then you get access to the beta. And then we're going to watch you. And we have the cabin camera turned on. And if you're not paying attention, and if there's disengagements, and if you're looking

down at your phone, then you're in trouble. But arbitrarily getting people to hit this maximum number that, again, is kind of based off on how to game the algorithm rather than how to actually just drive safely seems a bit ill-advised in my opinion. Yeah, it's also kind of funny that you've already paid for this thing. And it seems like it's finally ready because it's actually shipping to real people via software update. And you still don't get it because now you have to try out again for the thing you already bought. That is a little bit weird to me, but I think even more weird is the fact that the car is now,

it's already known how I drive, but it hasn't necessarily relayed that information back to people who will make a decision based on it. You know what I mean? That's another level of weird borderline, not surveillance, but it's like a strange extra layer of information to give up to people. Yeah. No, it kind of is. And I guess Tesla's approach would be, well, that's just the clause of the beta. You don't have to join the beta. If you want to just wait until it hits public release

and you never have to touch the steering wheel and you never have to disengage, knock yourself out. But that's going to take a long time. It's going to be years, presumably, before you can sit in your car and not pay attention and you don't look at the wheel and you're watching Netflix. Because based on what we're seeing, it's going to be a long time before you can truly take your eyes off the wheel. And that's where I think Tesla, actually, I got to give them credit because I've been pretty critical about how they have been pitching autopilot and full self-driving because I think they oversell the capabilities of the system. But this really cautious rollout, I think, is smart because as soon as you provide people with any level of autonomy, no matter how good of a driver they are, they're going to think they

understand the system. They're going to think they know when disengagements aren't going to happen. And you just instinctively pay less attention. And I noticed that in autopilot. I mean, I like to think I'm a good driver. I don't use my phone when I'm driving, but there have been times when I'd be like, you know what? I'm driving and I'm on the freeway going 80 miles an hour. And I don't really remember the last time I looked like super far ahead to see you you know if there's people beside me because you kind of just zone out looking at the road and uh and so this cautious rollout to make sure that the people that are driving with the full self-driving beta are actually ready to take control is is good it's just frustrating that this is part of a

hey so you gave us thousands and thousands of dollars years ago, and now we're slowly maybe perhaps going to give you access. Yeah. I feel like I'm trying to put myself in Tesla's shoes where it's like, all right, we've made this thing and we know that any sort of irresponsible use of this thing or extra trust in this thing that ends up causing an accident or having a bad thing happen will be very bad for it and will probably make headlines. And whether or not they have a PR department, you don't want to have to deal with that. So the best way to minimize that is to find a way to select the best possible candidates to start testing it early. And this is the way that they came up with to select the best

candidates. And while I don't necessarily think I'll be getting it anytime soon, I feel like I get it. I at least understand that. No, and it's kind of a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario just because Tesla and Elon Musk are such divisive entities and characters that they're kind of going to get crappy press

no matter what. I mean, you mentioned earlier the NDA where inside the NDA it's like, hey, you should kind of self-monitor. Don't post stuff that's super negative about the full self-driving beta and you've got all these websites saying oh that's censorship they don't want you to show how crappy their software is it's like that's not really what they mean but also they probably just shouldn't have put that in the nda because it's calling all this. So they're going to get blasted by the media either way. And frankly, even though I really don't like the way

that they do a lot of things, I think all things considered with where they're at now in this day and age with all their customers, this is probably the best way to roll it out, even if it's not perfect. Yeah. Do you think full self-driving is like the future of all cars on the road? Like Tesla can get really good at this as good as they want, but there's still going to be a very large

percent of other cars on the road not doing self-driving for many, many more years. Is that like a future you can imagine? Oh, absolutely. I mean, the question I think that we again get to is, A, when do we reach the point where in all instances, computers and self-driving cars are safer than human drivers? Up until that they're always safer, I don't think there's going to be regulatory requirements or whatever. to everyone. Because if I can only buy a $20,000 car and now I need a car that drives itself, how long is it going to take for this tech that's in Tesla's now or in Tesla's 10 years from now going to come down market to the masses? And I think it's going to be decades before nobody's really driving their cars anymore. I mean, it might not even happen in our lifetime. But I'm a bit more skeptical than a lot of people, certainly more than Elon Musk. And so maybe it's coming sooner than we think. And we've certainly made huge steps in the last few years. And Tesla's system, make no mistake, is impressive.

But I think it's going to be years, probably at least more than five, probably 10 before you can get in your Tesla, you put the address in where you want to go, and you don't have to watch the road a single time. It's a long time away. Yeah, it feels like every year at CES we see a prototype of a car where the driver's seat faces backwards and the screen is like a projection and you don't even look at the outside of the car. It's like, that's very optimistic. And I applaud that optimism, but I don't know how soon that's going to happen. I feel like the approach towards everyone going electric is much more quickly happening.

And that's frankly more interesting to me. Yeah. And I think that that kind of ultimately will affect the world at a greater, I think that's more valuable to the planet and to civilization moving to more sustainable fuels and electric vehicles than it is to, to fix full self-driving. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's important if we can get to the point where we've reduced the millions of, of automobile crashes that happen every year and millions of deaths that happen that's awesome

but uh it chicken before the egg i guess like you gotta one thing at a time and i think we're still a ways out and the transition to electric vehicles is is probably more likely but the great thing that tesla's demonstrated is that you can kind of do both at the same time so yeah so i want to i want to go back to the the r1t because that that's like a, it's so interesting. The fact that it's actually coming out, hopefully crossing my fingers. Um, and it's going to be, you know, delivered and it's going to be a real electric pickup truck that people will decide to buy. Do you, have you seen like coverage of like the F-150 lightning and the other like high end EV? like the F-150 Lightning and the other high-end EV, like the Hummer EV is going to be another one coming out soon. Do you think those have a place? Because here's something I noticed.

Every time a new electric vehicle comes out, immediately we need something to compare it to. And there's not that many other electric options. So if you make a Rivian R1T, we're just going to compare it to the F-150 Lightning because it's the other electric pickup truck. But they're very, very different. They're not the same. Right. So how do you look at like comparing the R1T to other stuff out there? I mean, I'm probably part of the problem. I titled my Rivian first look video, the Cybertruck killer. Again, I mean, I do think that they're competitors in the sense that they're both electric trucks. They both operate in roughly the same price echelon.

The Cybertruck allegedly will be cheaper. But it's just because there's something to compare it to. Because I don't know why there's this mental disconnect. But I think that people just don't equate EVs to regular cars. And I think Tesla's the first company that kind of came out and said, no, this isn't this like weirdo electric car. This is just a car that happens to be electric and it's really good. And I think that'll start to happen with trucks and stuff like that, where it won't be, do I get an F-150 Lightning or a Rivian? It'll be, do I get an F-150 or do I get an F-150 Lightning? And so I think that that's bound to happen eventually. But yeah, for right now, there's just because of how few electric vehicles there are, they're inherently going to be compared against one another. I mean, it's got a four and a half foot bed. It is, and Rivian was quick to admit, like,

this is not supposed to be an F-150 killer. In fact, they said that 85% of the people that pre-ordered the cars, the R1T rather, are first-time truck owners. So I think they're stealing more of like the Jeep crowd and maybe even the Tesla crowd than they are stealing the Ram and the Ford crowd. That is interesting. I know the Cybertruck was going to be a lot of people's first truck also, probably for a lot of the same reasons. If you didn't think you needed a truck at all, but you were somehow enamored with other parts of it, like the fact that it's an EV or it has this crazy design or the quad in the back, whatever else it is about that, it was going to be a lot of people's first truck.

But I guess the R1T... Do you want me to say something controversial? I would love that. I would love that. Go for it. I mean, I think that the F-150... No, I'm going to get I would love that. Go for it. I mean, I think that the F-150... No, I'm going to get in trouble by people.

The F-150 is the truck you want. If you want a kind of everyday truck, I'm going to haul lumber from Home Depot occasionally. I want to go to the grocery store. But if you're towing stuff every day, you're not buying an F-150. You're buying a super duty or a heavy duty truck from one of these larger brands. And so these early electric vehicles are not going to replace that because those are people that need to tow 20,000 pounds, hundreds of miles a day, and they're out on a ranch.

And they're not people that are interested in these small form factor trucks. unique in the sense that it's the only truck, I guess the entry level Silverado is and the Tacoma kind of is, but they're these small trucks that are mostly just bought by normal people that go to the grocery store, but they are powerful and capable enough to tow a boat or whatever. And these early kind of EV trucks are more grocery store getters than they are, I want to haul, you know, haze and bales or I don't know what people do with trucks. That was my thing is like, okay, I've seen all these videos about people who are like, this is why I have a truck. This is why I use a truck. Anytime I need to carry something or like I need to put a bunch of rocks in the back. I'm like, I've never seen any of this

happening, but okay, I'll trust it. But yeah, you're right. The second I learned, there's definitely a name for, I forgot the name of this phenomenon, but when you But yeah, you're right. The second I learned, there's definitely a name for, I forgot the name of this phenomenon, but when you learn something, you start seeing it everywhere. We did the video on the F-150 Lightning and we learned about how popular it was. And then I just, I couldn't stop seeing F-150s everywhere, all over the highways, at every grocery store, there's F-150s all over the road. It's the best selling car in America. It's the number one selling car, number one selling vehicle. And that made it much more apparent that it's like, no, this isn't like the landscaping truck or like the actual like heavy-duty use.

This is just like people who just get them, who just want one. Yeah, they're fun. And yeah, it turns out I can put like two bicycles in the back of my car without any like equipment and just drive around with them. So I've never needed a pickup truck. But maybe one day I'll carry rocks around. I don't know. We'll see. bicycles in the back of my car without any like equipment and just drive around with them so i've never needed a pickup truck but maybe one day i'll carry rocks around i don't know we'll see um all right if someone could i have a random question if someone could drop one of these cars for free into your driveway right now which one would you take am i a youtuber that stands to make money off of the content? That's a great question.

I'll let you determine. Let's say I'm not. Let's say I'm not. The hype for the Cybertruck is clearly through the roof, right? Yes, yes. But let's pretend I'm not. That's a good question. I really, again, think it kind of depends.

And what you prioritize, right? So the Rivian blew me away in terms of the cabin quality. I mean, it is a nicer interior than Tesla has ever made. It was just dead silent. The seats were incredible. It looks modern, but not Spartan, which I feel a lot of the kind of Tesla design languages. It was fantastic.

And so in that regard, and frankly, the off-roading capabilities and even dumb little stuff like that camp kitchen that slides out and the tent, that's freaking cool. That's freaking cool. So I think I would probably want the Rivian more, but you can't discount Tesla's ability to drive hype and to make really fast, fun cars. And they do have the best software in the business. And that was the thing that I was just like, come on guys, because the Rivian was so good, but the screen was just not great. And it was definitely not a Tesla. So the thing I've been testing a lot, I've had a lot of experience now lately with a lot of

newer electric cars. Some of them running android automotive some of them running their own software i tested the eqs lately and the one thing that always pops up is like this software is not good do i think this car company has the chops to make really good software and usually the answer is no i just call me crazy but i don't believe mercedes benz is going to become a great software company in the next few years. 100%. But Rivian being like this new startup type and being Silicon Valley based, maybe there's a chance. I was really looking forward to them having great software. Your experience, what you showed in your video, it's still like choppy and laggy.

And again, it's not out yet, but that was a concern for me. I think they have the foundations, right? So because they're not a legacy automaker, I feel like they're not trying to cater to, they're not trying to make electric cars like transitionary, where I feel like a lot of other automakers are like that. So there's no start, stop button like all EVs have. And I'm like, why is this there? You just get in the car and drive and you get out of the car and start driving. I'll give, I'm just sorry to interrupt. No, no, go for it. Volvo, I'll give credit. They have done exactly that. It's funny because they literally like have a piece of plastic over where

the start stop button would have been. But in the XC40 Recharge, you get in, you hit the brakes and you go. That's funny. So yeah, stuff like that. And just a bunch of this kind of holdover stuff, a phone key. Once you stuff a phone key once you know once you have a phone key oh my goodness you never want to carry keys over again but that's something that's like a big hurdle for a lot of people and so in these region again people i've seen so many cars that offer the ability to like turn off regen you're like no don't even let that happen because that's what makes evs have great range and that's what makes the driving experience great and so there's this kind of awkward transitionary period where, like you've mentioned

with Volvo, I think regular automakers are going to figure it out. But I think Tesla really got so much right from the get-go. And from what I've seen with Rivian, they've kind of copied a lot of what Tesla did. And that's largely, I don't know if you know this, Tesla's suing Rivian because they poached an incredible number of Tesla engineers. And there's a lot of similarities because the same people that built Rivian built Tesla. And so, and as a consumer, I think that's awesome because I think they have a lot of the principles right, but there's this kind of refinement that comes with Teslala software and that's funny because that's probably the only area where tesla is refined but their software is really refined and rivian is just not even close yet and so they're better than traditional automakers probably

better than the eqs but as a previous tesla owner i just got in there and was like this screen sucks so they're they know that's a problem though they said they're working to fix it so hopefully they do that that was good to see that like honest like self-assessment from them because if you ask like mercedes they're like yeah our software is great and i'm like this is this looks like windows 90 95 uh germans am i right just kidding germans watch my channel like crazy so i mock them all the time yeah no yeah there's all the time I like to be optimistic about all the electric cars on the horizon like I said I brought a Volvo

I was very impressed if you just go to Volvo's website right now they're only showing their electric stuff on their homepage which is awesome very forward thinking I like that so hopefully the software experience gets together in as many of these as possible. Hopefully the Rivian starts shipping ASAP. I want all these things to be as on time as possible

and we get a bunch of electric options and we all win. There's one thing that's certainly undeniable. Cars are really fun and they're going to be so fun in the next 10 years. Yeah. Every year from here on out will be the most interesting year in cars.

It really will. That's so awesome. I'm excited for that. Yeah, man. All right. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, I have one more question for you about your keyboard. You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon,

or they could be late for the bus. You never know. Ambition is on the inside. So that thing you love, keep doing it. Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. Support for the show today comes from NetSuite. Anxious about where the economy is headed?

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netsuite.com slash waveform. All right. I want to ask you at netsuite.com slash waveform netsuite.com slash waveform all right i want to ask you one more thing how fast can you type the alphabet like on a keyboard yeah yeah on a keyboard you're in front of a keyboard right now i'm a pretty yeah do you want me to try yeah okay so here here's what i'll do i'll put this in the chat real quick i don't know can you see the see the chat over on the side here? Yeah, yeah. Here we go. All right. So this is a little tradition we've started on this show,

which is every guest pulls up this typing test, and you get three tries, and you just go right through from A to Z and type the alphabet as fast as you can. I'm not saying it's a competition, but I am saying there's a leaderboard. So as fast as you desire to type

that alphabet out. Okay. Well, I don't want to cop out, but the keyboard I'm using right now would not be my first choice. You won't be the only one. Here we go. You ready? Yeah. Holy smokes. that was bad.

6.288. That's pretty good. All right, take a screenshot of that. Oh, shoot, I just deleted it. In case it's your best one. I'm going to top that. Come on, here we go. All right, all right, all right.

I got to do my breathing exercises. I love seeing how people prepare for this crap okay that was a lot better 5.293 okay that's pretty good that's pretty good that is definitely not the bottom of our leaderboard

that's pretty good so far well boy if that's the threshold we're going by okay here we go no I'm being you're probably pretty close to the top. Not going to lie. Okay. Last time.

Here we go. I got caught up on X. That's a stupid letter. 4.432. Wow. I'm approving. Okay, here we go. That was incredible.

I'll send you this screenshot. Can you put it in – oh, I you the screenshot can you put it in oh I don't think you can put it in the chat so 4.4 you said 4.4 uh yeah

oh man and then I just you know how in macOS when you drag the screenshot somewhere and it doesn't save that's really bad

if you don't put it in the right spot okay there we go 4.432 alright that somewhere and it doesn't save, that's really bad if you don't put it in the right spot. Okay, there we go. 4.432. All right. If it holds and we get that screenshot, that will be on our leaderboard of 12. That would be number one. Right above my 4.5. Well done. Thank you. Well done. Well, guys, if you want to get the keyboard that does it, this is the Topper RealForce.

This is a membrane. It was very quiet. I'll give you that. It was very quiet. A through Z. Well done, Quinn. Appreciate it. It's been a pleasure having you on.

We'll probably talk more for sure about all kinds of other stuff. I want to have you. We'll probably talk like we should do a whole other episode about offices and being a YouTuber and creating and all that stuff. Always glad to come on. Until then, yes, I appreciate your time and we'll talk again. Appreciate it. Thanks, Marques. See ya.

Awesome. Take care. Sweet. My thanks again to Quinn for joining us. Another very busy guy. He's making a lot of videos. And if you want to check out his videos, which you should, fellow creator, youtube.com slash schnazzy. And he's making a lot of videos and if you want to check out his videos which you should fellow creator youtube.com slash snazzy and he's made all kinds

of tech videos and his latest was about the Rivian R1T you should definitely watch it we'll put it in the show notes it's like 25 minutes on everything you could want to know about

driving the truck using software camping with it the accessories talking to people at the company it's all there but Andrew you're back

any takes on what we had a conversation about we covered a lot of ground there yeah i like we we started writing up the outline for this and then we just messaged quinn last night because i was like he's he knows way more about this than i do he should have that conversation it was fantastic but i wrote a couple things down that he mentioned um one his controversial take about like an f-150 and what people normally do with it. He's completely correct. I'm sure, like he said, there are plenty of pickup drivers out there who do like tow and

everything with an F-150. But generally, if you're towing super big things and towing like as a job all the time, you're getting an F-250 or something larger than that. And Ford, when they came with us, told us that's what they see in the numbers as well. So that's completely correct. And I do think like when you talk about all the different pickup trucks, I don't think people understand size differences here. Like I actually didn't realize that R1T was that much smaller, but it is quite a bit smaller

than F-150. The F-150 is smaller than the Cybertruck, right? Like, and then the H3. We saw the hummer oh my goodness that thing's gigantic so the r1t feels like and quinn mentions in his video it's like an adventure truck or an adventure vehicle i guess it has the bed which is nice you can put some stuff on it but it's not necessarily doing these regular pickup truck things right i kind of again we are sort of guilty of comparing them all to each other despite them

having major differences. But you're right. The people at Ford would describe the large majority of F-150 owners as just-in-case towers, meaning most of the time that they drive it, they aren't towing anything, they aren't hauling anything, but they like to get it just in case. And sometimes they'll put something in the back and they'll be glad they got it they can bring their boat for the weekend they can bring a trailer with a lawnmower on it they can throw stuff in the bed wood they can bring stuff to a job site but it's not their main thing it's not

like a landscaping vehicle where you're doing every single day or huge loads yeah so the just in case buyer is a different set of buyers from the I am buying this specifically because I'll be hauling all the time buyer. Yeah. And that's also, I think, different from the adventure crowd, which may or may not even need a pickup versus an SUV or whatever. It happens to be a good form factor for that. But that's kind of where the Rivian. I mean, after Quinn's video and seeing the size and all the stuff it does, I'm I love it. I cannot afford it, but it is an awesome car. I like the size of it. I went and was test driving cars recently,

and I test drove an F-150, and I realized, I used to drive my dad's F-250. I grew up learning how to drive in a Ford Expedition, so I was used to big cars, but now driving a smaller car and having an hour commute, I don't want to do that on a commute. So this Rivian seems like an awesome kind of in between like that. And I love all the camping stuff and all that.

Can't afford it, but I'm really excited to see it. I think it'll be really, really awesome. Yeah, sporty little pickup truck. I am a little worried about what he said, software. I do think hopefully they'll fix it, but it is a little concerning that they're a company, like said valley based and not quite up to stuff and what's funny is he mentioned the software being kind of laggy and before he even noticed that when he's just showing it i was like did that just was that a frame drop or is that no that doesn't look great so yeah hopefully they'll smooth that out yeah that's the funny thing about rivian taking so much from tesla is like all the best stuff that tesla does is in ui and software but

the optimization and having things actually be super responsive and fluid didn't translate didn't make it yet at least yet we may see that in a software update someone will get there eventually obviously i hope so just like yeah tesla will hit manufacturing stages of some other things in quality control eventually but that's newer to them and they're a software company almost to their detriment i mean one thing i really liked in quinn's video is him saying like i like the fact that i can change my windshield wiper speed on the stock even like it's showing up digitally but i have a physical button for it not digging around the menus and stuff like that yeah my car does that automatically or um well it has an auto and i can

change with the with the button on the wheel i can change oh you can okay but i think in previous no yeah in previous cars you could change the knob too i don't know okay that's a little different maybe model three and y are different yeah three and y i think are different you have to do it with two different button presses but yeah we'll see how long that that takes again that's a little different maybe Model 3 and Y are different yeah 3 and Y I think are different you have to do it with two different button presses but yeah we'll see how long that takes

again that's been my question is what do you think will happen first will Tesla become a world class high quality interior car

manufacturer or will Tesla's competition become world class software engineers it'll be I would yeah

shrugs it's that's there's so many variables there i don't yeah i don't really know where to go but that's it also just destroying all of us in the in the typing four seconds that's good he started out in like fifth jumped into fourth and then just crushed the top three on a membrane keyboard this is the this is the alert to any other creators that i may or may not dm asking to come on the show. You can practice. I mean, we'll get

like a mechanical keyboard, but like Teja will come on here at some point. It's out there. Cruise through all of us. Someone's going to get like a crazy score. But that's pretty great so far. So shout out to Quinn for being at the top of the leaderboard there. Wouldn't have it any other way. Great way to end it. Thanks for listening to this episode. He was our first guest.

First guest, now number one on the leaderboard. Well, second guest. Doug was somewhere... No, no, he was our first ever podcast guest, though. Oh, Quinn was the first guest we ever had. He's now reoccurring. Oh, okay. That's nice, too. So, you know, he just had to make sure it was known. That's

perfect. So, we'll have to get more people back on. Sweet. Great way to end it. Thanks for everyone for joining us this week on Waveform, and we'll talk to you guys soon in the next one. Peace. Waveform is produced by Adam Molina. We are partnered with Vox Media, and our intro-outro music was created by Vane Silk.