Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - The Beeple Interview: Creating Online & the Future of NFTs

Episode Date: March 19, 2021

We're ridiculously lucky to have the super-talented Beeple on Waveform this week. In a 45-minute interview, he discusses how he's grown as an artist/creator, what kind of equipment he uses to create his art, and his thoughts on the future of NFTs beyond the current hype train. You definitely don't want to miss this episode! Links: https://twitter.com/wvfrm https://twitter.com/mkbhd https://twitter.com/andymanganelli https://twitter.com/AdamLukas17 https://www.instagram.com/wvfrmpodcast/ shop.mkbhd.com Music by KamrenB: https://spoti.fi/2WRJOFh Beeple: https://twitter.com/beeple Creative Work Animation: https://bit.ly/3cOePB1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We're your hosts. I'm Marques. And I'm Andrew. And today we've got an interview episode. I got to talk to a fellow internet creator, Mike Winkleman, a.k. mike winkelman aka people so this is a fun one this is this is maybe a little bit unexpected we've usually talked to video creators in the past but you've probably heard of people sometime at least lately from his art and a lot of the stuff going on in the nft world we've talked about nfts a lot probably like the last three episodes so i hope no one's getting sick sick of it. I know they're all the hype, but this is kind of like the holy grail of the NFT world right

now. He would probably hate that I said that. But just like he's the one and he just sold something for $69 million, which is like the headline absolutely everywhere. But the thing behind it is he's been creating these pieces for like 13 years. And I don't think people understand that. They think there's just this piece that sold for a ton of money and it's NFTs and it's all the hype. And, but there's so much more to him as a creator. And I've looked up a lot of interviews going before this

and he's just absolutely fascinating. And he has so much more to say than just I sold an NFT for a ton of money. Yeah, I want to preface this interview with a couple of things, but really I feel like what I learned when talking to him and when just looking up all the stuff he's done is we actually have a lot in common. Yeah.

Just from the creator world. So just here's a few things that crossed my mind. First of all, like I said, he's been making art for a long time. He's on this daily project where he's been making a new piece every day for 5070 consecutive days. So that's over 10 years straight of not missing a day, which is wild. He started in 2007. I started making videos in 2009. But also just in the fact that a lot of this stuff relies on on the tools and the software, he relies on a lot of rendering and octane and 3D stuff and relies a lot on the GPU specs today. But it wasn't always that way.

And we talk a little bit about that in this interview. Also, he doesn't edit much on his laptop anymore because he needs more of that processing power. That's something I also deeply, deeply relate to. So you're saying you just found someone who agrees that you should have a Mac Pro for YouTube videos pretty much. That's basically what I'm saying. We also talk a little bit about paying attention to internet comments and whether or not they can be constructive with your work.

And also just the fact that he's self-taught. He didn't go to school for this. When you're self-taught and all of the work you publish can be publicly commented on, basically, whether it's the YouTube comments section or if he's posting on his own website or Instagram or Twitter, that's a dynamic that didn't really exist before the last 10 to 15 years. So that's a really interesting thing

that we got to vibe on and chat about a little bit. But I think when you're listening to this interview, pay attention to how he talks about art. Obviously, someone who does it every day for 5,000 straight days cares a lot about it. It's not just someone who's toiling away, kind of just making whatever he wants for no reason. There's a lot of thought that goes into what he makes and why, but also pay attention to how he talks about the tools he uses and why he uses them. Something I always hear from aspiring creators, or at least when I get asked to give advice, is like, I need to buy something that you have to be able to start doing what you do. And that's always a trap. You never actually have to immediately, I mean, if you don't have a camera at all,

I guess, yeah, you'd have to buy one. But if you're typing that comment on your phone, turn it around, there's a camera on the back. Like you can actually start making with the tools you have before you start getting better and start to require better tools. And that's 100% something that we both found that has affected our workflows over time,

has affected our art and what we make over time. And I just felt like that was a fun thing to chat about. So we're going to take this ad break a little bit early so we can go straight through the Beeple interview uninterrupted. So it'll be something like 45 minutes of straight information. There's a lot of information in that time. It's a lot. So we'll play that.

We'll come back from the break and we'll recap what we learned. So after the break, my chat with people. This holiday season, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health is counting on your support. CAMH is on a mission to make better mental health care

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With Uber Reserve, good things come to those who plan ahead. Family vacay? Reserve your ride as soon as you book your flights. To all the planners, now you can reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See Uber app for details. Also, quick language warning if you usually listen with your kids or something. Maybe not this episode. There's a couple words in there. Other than that, let's get into it. All right, Mike, a.k.a. Beeple, thanks for joining me on the Waveform podcast.

Thank you for having me. Super honored to be here. And I've been a fan of the channel for the longest time. So this is super, super cool to talk. That's amazing, man. Should I call you Mike or Beeple? I've seen both. You can just call me Mike. Okay, cool. Just want to make sure. So the story of the past couple of weeks has been crazy. I'm sure your inbox has been just nuts. Oh my God. Insane. It has just been insane. But there's so much context to it that I want to get into because I feel like you and I actually have a lot in common, like in the digital space and as creators. And I'll talk about some more of these like

interesting points I've come up with in a second, but I feel like we do. So we'll see. We'll see if I'm right. Okay. Okay. So for the three people unfamiliar, how would you describe what you do as people and like what the origin story is? I'm sure you've told it a thousand times. Sure, sure. So I've been creating, you know, digital artwork for the last, you know, about 20 years, over 20 years, actually, I'm 39. And so about in 2007, I started the everyday's project. And that's kind of the project I'm sort of most known for. And that is where I do a picture every single day, you know, from start to finish and post it online. And so I've been doing that for now 5000 days, you know, just earlier this year was 5000 days. And sort of along the ways, I also did a bunch of short films.

I've released a bunch of Creative Commons VJ clips. So a bunch of different things, different art stuff. A lot of it is very weird and gross. And it's not for everybody. It's definitely not for everybody. But it's definitely got a lot of sort of topical themes lately, kind of commenting sort of in real time, almost on kind of the events of that day, almost like a political cartoonist.

But yeah, it's definitely taken an evolution. And just recently, obviously, there was this kind of a big sale. For sure. Yeah. Sort of the apex of like why your name is everywhere. How do you feel about Beeple being above the toy that you originally based the name off of now? If you just Google Beeple,

no one knows about the toy anymore. It's actually been above the toy for a while. And so at first it was sort of like, oh, what's a Beeple? And so I would tell people and then I'd have to keep scrolling down, down, down. It's like, well, there's one of these. There's a Beeple somewhere here. And now I'm sure it's very, very hard to find the toy. But if you want to see what the toy is, just Google Beeple toy.

Perfect. So the graphic design stuff and all the art you've made is, correct me if I'm wrong, self-taught completely. Like you didn't go to graphic design school. You didn't go specifically to college to learn how to do this. You've just been making stuff for a long time. Is that right? Yeah, I've been, um, I went to school for computer science and about halfway through, I realized, you know, I was spending all my time making, you know, weird little art stuff and that I didn't really want to be a programmer. So I got a job doing, um, sort of web design and then really put all of my true energy into sort of the people stuff, you know, kind of on the side and started growing sort of like a and then really put all of my true energy into sort of the people stuff, you know, kind of on the side and started growing sort of like a following from there.

And then along the way, I started getting, you know, better and better sort of clients and doing, you know, more freelance work as people and then was able to sort of quit my job and just do freelance sort of full time and kind of, you know, as a digital artist prior to NFTs, that was kind of the only way to sort of, you know, make a living was doing, you know, kind of freelance work. Right. There's I love that story just because there's there's a really good piece. And I'll probably like try to link it in the show notes of like the best way to get good at doing something is to just do it a lot and do a lot of versions of it and just iterate and get better and better over time. And that's what I relate most to. Like, do you think a lot about the fact that you're self-taught and that's not necessarily the normal path to becoming an artist?

A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And that is the biggest sort of piece of the everyday's project that in all the sort of hype and everything, you know, over the last couple of weeks here that I think people are missing is the sitting down every day and working like that is the most important part of it. That is the biggest message from it. And that it's, it was something that I started in 2007, I saw an illustrator out of the UK named Tom Judd, he did a drawing a day. And I thought, you know, that was a really cool way to get better drawing. And I thought, I'll try and, you know, do that do a drawing a day. And so I did that, you know, after a year

of that, I thought, well, maybe I could teach myself a 3D program and do the same thing, do a render every day. And so I started doing that and, you know, just kept doing it. But the same reason that I started it to get better and to practice is the same reason I will do it today is I still feel like there's a huge amount of room for practice, huge amount of room for growth. And so, yeah, I think incremental improvement like that is a key, key piece of this. 100%. That's like one of the questions I get asked all the time is like, how do I get started? Or how do I get better at making video?

Because you watch today's videos on YouTube. And you're like, well, I can't just jump right in and start competing with that. But my advice is always if you just start now, and if you literally do one video every day, you'll learn a lot more than if you tried to work on one video for a month straight. I'd much rather you do 30 videos over 30 days. And I think that person is going to learn a lot more than the person who tries to work on one thing for a long time as a beginner. A hundred percent agree, because I think it teaches you when you're starting from scratch every single day, it teaches you kind of the whole thing. And it teaches you one of the whole thing. And it teaches you one of the most important things is how to finish a project. And that's a very, very hard thing,

finishing something and just being like that good enough. That is very, very hard for artists. And that's something when you have a deadline every single day, it forces you to do that. So that's a really, really key piece of this. So now you're at 5,070 days, I think is the number currently. Something like that, sure. Sounds about right. Haven't missed a day. Have not missed a day. Oh, my God, sweet baby.

I'm sure I will. That'll be a bad day. That'll be a bad day. Yeah, I have so many random questions about that. Like, you don't have a goal of a number you want to hit anymore, right? You're just gone. No, I want to do them until I die at this point. I want to do them every single day till I die. That's the goal.

Poetic, poetic. We'll see, we'll see. What's the closest you've ever gotten to not making a day? Are you ever at 11.59? Like, you know what? I just should hit publish now. Not that close, but I've been close. I've been like 11.50. For a while, I was kind of being stupid and pushing it. Now, a lot of times I'll sort of post something on like Tumblr. Like I'll post like kind of like almost and pushing it now a lot of times I'll sort of post something on like tumblr like I'll post like kind of like almost like a work in progress so it's like okay it's

done it posted at like 11 or something like that so it's sort of like okay this day's in the bank and then I'll work literally right up till 11 59 like improving it and that will be kind of the like that's the final one for the day so I'm'm not sort of like, okay, the power goes out or some crazy thing happens. And it's like, so, um, yeah, I, I've gotten close before. And there was actually another time where I took a, uh, you know, again, it has to be posted online before midnight. And so I got on, I, I, you know, sort of did my picture. I was taking a flight to Brazil for like a talk or whatever and the flight was at like you know noon or something like that or two or three or something and it was going to go overnight and i wouldn't land until the next morning so i had to do my picture before i got

on the flight obviously yeah and so i did my picture got on the flight an hour this is a nine-hour flight no internet hour into the flight i'm like oh crap i never posted it i definitely remember doing it but i never posted it's like did i post it no did i ah and so literally for nine hours i freaked the hell out it was just the most like absolutely just excruciating mental pain like that i had fucked up and it was just like the worst yeah and then as soon as we landed checked the internet and i was like oh yeah no i posted it oh okay okay it's like oh nice it was just oh my god it was bad there's so many there's so many versions of this like uh you, working at something every day. One of my friends, Casey Neistat,

you've probably seen some of his videos. Yeah, I actually just started like kind of like talking to him a little bit. Amazing. He did something like 300 plus days of vlogs in a row. And something I found really interesting about that was you never really get to bank anything. Every vlog is a new day.

You start from scratch every day and you finish it that day. You start from scratch every day and you finish it that day. Do you, are you the same? Do you have like a bank of, of rough drafts to start with? Nothing. Everything is starting from blank slate that day. Like that, that's kind of the point of it is starting over every single day. Um, so they're definitely not like kind of like banked up and I'm just sort of like releasing them. Each one is done start to finish that day. So cool. Okay. So now that I've seen a ton of your work and if people go to your, your site or your Instagram, they can get a taste of the variety and the sheer chaos that it is. There is quite a variety. And that's the thing that I think is

interesting too, is it's taken a lot of different sort of like forms over the years. Like in the beginning, obviously it was drawings. Um, and then it, it got very lot of different sort of like forms over the years like in the beginning obviously it was drawings um and then it got very abstract like sort of like as i was you know and very rudimentary as i was learning these 3d tools and then it kind of turned into these sort of abstract kind of like landscape sci-fi landscapes and now it is just kind of like gross weird stuff internet culture pop culture like you know kind of uh weird weird stuff, internet culture, pop culture, like, you know, kind of weird, weird stuff. It's beautiful. Now that I've seen all this, I'm curious, like, what makes a really good piece for you? Like people ask artists all the time to like define a success or define like doing what you set out to do. Do you have a barometer for like what you really like about some of your

pieces? Sure. Most of them I don't like because it's something that I only did in a couple hours. So most of it's like, I see all the things that could be better, the things that could be improved. So I actually don't like most of them. But that again, is sort of a piece of this is it to me, it's kind of there's some part of this is it's not up to you to sort of like judge what's good it's up to you to make the art and other people can judge and they can like it not like it um but that's not really to me like any of your concern so um the thing that uh when i do find a piece where i was like oh that turned out good it honestly feels like i got lucky that it's sort of like ah ah, some things clicked and it's like, ah, I feel like I just

kind of got lucky there. Like things kind of like fell into place. Um, there's a few times where I'll do a picture and I like put like a huge amount of time into it and it, and it, you know, feels like it turned out good and, and I didn't, didn't get lucky, but those are very rare. Very, very rare. Yeah. I can definitely relate to that. Do you have like favorite pieces that you've done? Like maybe even in the 5,000 days, are there pieces that stand out where you're like, I can't believe I did that in a day?

Because that's what I look at and see like most of your stuff. I'm like, seriously, he did all that in a day in Cinema 4D? Yeah, there's not pieces where I'm like, I did that in a day, but there's definitely pieces that stand out because they sort of opened up sort of new avenues. They were kind of like, OK, you know, something with Kim Jong-un or, you know, the first time I use Buzz Lightyear or some other character or something like that, or, you know, learn some new technique that sometimes that kind of like, OK, now here's a new path of like where I can sort of go with this, you know, kind of moving forward. Those are sort of like, you know, days that I'd like more. Gotcha. So there's a, there's a pretty recent new Tiger Woods quote where someone asked, has you, have you ever walked off the golf course and just thought like, that's my best work? Like I'll never reach that. That's the, that's the best round. I couldn't do better than that.

And he was like, no, like I'll never, I'll never be like truly satisfied with like any one piece of work. Do you feel that same way about? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I feel like it's sort of like, there might be things where I'm like, you know, that was good. Or, or this is, you know, something I liked. Usually it's more like with the like short films or something like that. But it's, it's not one of those where it's like, well, I'm done. It's sort of like, well, now I have to try to sort of like do something better. It might be it might seem like it's sort of like, oh, I got lucky there. And it's gonna be hard to like, kind of like do something better. But I honestly don't think about that stuff too much, because I feel like it's not. I try not to think about that, because it's not that productive. And I really

just try and focus on the technique, try and focus on the work and sort of, you know, just sitting down each day and trying and kind of good, bad hype this or that. I really try to sort of, you know, not see any of the like crap people are saying the comments. I really try to not view that stuff just because it's not it's not helpful both ways. I feel like it's not helpful when you sort of, you know, there's days helpful both ways, I feel like. It's not helpful when you sort of, you know, there's days, you know, you phoned it in or you're kind of like, okay, this was phoned in, come on.

And then you see a bunch of people like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Like that's not good for you, I don't think. True. That's not healthy. And it's also not healthy when you do something and people are like, this is crap, this is gross, what is this, blah, blah, blah. It's kind of something and people are like, this is crap. This is gross. What is this?

Blah, blah, blah. It's kind of like, okay, guy, that's fine. Just unfollow me. Just if you don't like it and you're offended by it, just unfollow me. There's millions of other things. You don't need to follow me. You can cancel me very easy. Yeah, I feel like that is actually something we have in common is like you have to be very selective about

how much stock you put in people's comments about your work. Like for a video, sometimes there is like there's this thing on YouTube where like you think you spend like a ton of time on a video and you're like, this one's going to hit. I know this is an incredible video. And then it doesn't. And then the next video you spend half the time and it blows up and you're like, why is this the one? So to an extent, you have to have like an internal barometer of like, I know that this piece feels good to me and this is why I want to publish it.

So that's I think that's definitely something we have in common there. Yeah, 100 percent. I think it's it's sort of having having some level of filter for sort of social media feedback, especially because it's totally unfiltered with like comments. And these are people from all over the world. You have no idea who they are. And it's sort of like you have no idea if they're a background to this. And it's sort of like they're presented all as equals. And it's sort of like, okay, well, am I just taking advice from like a 14-year-old kid who had a bad day because his mom grounded him?

Probably. And he's like taking it out on me like why would i listen to that if you i feel like a lot of times if you saw the people behind the comment you'd be like okay yeah i'm ignoring that i know that's very true that's a kid this is a person who knows nothing about this thing like why would i listen to this person oh that's another one is where you're like oh the the people commenting on the art are the people that don't do art so it it's pretty. Yeah, it's kind of like, well, why the hell would I listen to you? You don't do art or the art that you like. I don't like.

So it's kind of like, that's fine. That's your comment. Like, I'm not going to listen to that. So I think sort of being cognizant of that fact, having a group of people who's, you know, sort of feedback you do respect, I think is important and kind of just really sort of filtering the rest out because it's toxic and it really messes with your head. So, okay, when you start a new project, blank slate, sometime in the morning, at any point in the day, you start at something new. It's almost always at night, actually, because it's sort of like it will take up as much time as I have, as I give to the everyday.

So it's like, okay, I usually have to get all my other crap done, you know, during the day. And then it usually at like eight or nine or something like that, I'll start it or later. Got it. So you start this project sometime in the afternoon. Do you have an idea of like what you're going to make as you're starting? And I ask that because, you know, when I'm making a video, a tech video, I have a really good idea of once we start making the video, what I'm aiming to make. And for the most part, we can get pretty close, right?

We have a list of like shots we want to get. We have a physical thing, like a gadget that we're pointing a camera at. So we know what we're going to get. But once in a while, there's like some fancy shot or like a robot shot. We have a camera robot. We like to mess with it for hours at a time for a quick shot. And we have an idea and then it just ends up totally different because of the tool we use.

Yes. I'm curious if that happens with your pieces. Like you start in one direction and the tool veers you off or your brain, independent of the tool, veers you off or your brain independent of the tool veers you off or both? Yes, absolutely. 100%. I usually have some level of idea of like I have, I sort of will take some time and sort of look around the internet, look around like current events going on and try and get an idea, like just a starting point. And it might be just like, oh, this shape of building or this sort of, you know, it might be something very, very sort of simple or very sort of like abstract.

And then from there, it's kind of like whatever happens, happens. And sometimes it's just sort of like, I'll try something and it'll be like, okay, that did not work and we got to pivot here. Or it'll be like, I'll get a different idea or that. So it's very much sort of like, and it could change drastically right at the end. So it's very much sort of like, you know, this drastically right at the end. So it's very much sort of like, you know, this is kind of, I'm just sort of rolling with it and kind of, you know, usually what happens is I just run out of time and it's sort of like, oh crap, I don't have any

more time. Like this is pretty much what it is. And so sort of, you know, understanding how much you can get done in like an hour, you know, really helps with that to be like, okay, we got to kind of start wrapping this up here because we're running out of time. So being flexible like that, I think is really important. And it really feels like I'm playing and experimenting each day. And so that's what to me keeps it super interesting, you know, as the person spending an ungodly amount of time sitting at a computer. Do you feel like you know that the tools you're using cinema 4d for most of the stuff lately? Yep. Cinema 4d and like octane. Yep. Do you feel

like you know well enough that you're never really held back by what you want to make by the tool? Because with the robot, I'm literally like getting to a certain move where the arm of the robot can't physically make the move. I'm like, all right, we have to adjust our shot now. But I feel like you don't have you don't really have that limitation. No, I don't. I actually don't feel like that at all. I feel like I know how to do certain things in the programs, but the programs are sort of like rapidly evolving. And now Unreal is like a big thing and like super, super like, you know, powerful. And so it's a space that moves super, super quickly. And the workflows can change really, really fast. The way I work now is completely different than

the way I worked when I started. So I think it's something that is so I know a piece of it, but that you can pretty quickly throw me off my game where I'm like, whoa, what the, I have no idea how to do this or like how to do that. Because there's just so many areas to sort of making these images. There's, you know, modeling, there's texturing, there's UV mapping, there's animation, there's rigging, there's lighting. And like, you know, when you look at like a Pixar movie or something like that, each person is just doing like one tiny thing. And it could be like really insanely tiny. I went before a couple of years ago.

Well, they were making Frozen 2. I talked to some of the guys at Disney Studios there. And they were like, oh, well, we work on the like water. And the guy's like, well, no, no. I just work on the foam. And it's like he didn't even work on the water. He just worked on the foam on the water. That's it.

Like that was his full time job for like years. And so it's like that's how specific it is on these movies. So there's so much to learn. It is just like an endless thing. And it keeps changing based on the like software continuing to update. That's crazy. Yeah. Like I feel like you could spend a decade or two or three inside of a piece of software and never fully master everything it's capable of. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's pieces of the software. I look like entire menus where I'm just like, I don't know what the hell

that does. And I have spent thousands, you know, at this point, probably 10 to 20,000 hours in this program, actually, probably easily 20,000 hours in this program. And there is absolutely pieces of where it's like, I don't know what the hell this does. Okay, tons of things, tons of things. So you said something earlier, which is really interesting. You said the way you've worked has changed a lot from the beginning to now. I'm curious how. So when I first started out doing 3D, I wanted to learn how to like model, which is sort of like making the 3D objects and sort of, you know, there's a bunch of different ways you can kind of extrude faces and a bunch of sort of techniques to do that. When I hit 10 years of every days.

And so when I did that, it's sort of like, okay, well, if I want a tree in the scene, I have to model a tree if I want, you know, a thing. And at that time, the pictures were very abstract. So I wasn't putting stuff like that in. Yeah. Along the line, I started wanting to make more narrative work sort of stuff that kind of told a little story. And so then I was sort of like, I stopped modeling everything. When I hit 10 years, it was like, okay, I'm going to sort of like allow myself to use any model I want sort of like from anywhere. So there's a site called TurboSquid that has, you know, tens of thousands, a hundred thousand models. And so you type in bike and there's like, you know, a bazillion different bikes and you just kind of choose which one you want and buy it. And then you can immediately pull it on the scene. Boom's ready to go. And so that's a very different way.

So now it really feels like, you know, instead of me building every single thing from scratch, it feels like I start out again, blank slate, but then I pull in, like I've got a big toy collection and I'm pulling in these toys. I'm pulling in a bike. I'm pulling in a house. I'm pulling in a tree. I'm pulling in a Kim Jong-un. I'm pulling in a dude. And I'm sort of posing them and moving them around almost like toys and then lighting them all with virtual lights again and then sort of taking a picture of it with a virtual camera. And so that's kind of what it feels like. And I can kind of break the toys apart. I can make them bigger. I can make them smaller. And I can, you know, move everything.

And so it feels – really feels like, you know a very playful like explorative you know sort of workflow got it that is so cool that's like it's a whole totally different workflow from what i do i mean i i've i took one class in this sort of 3d modeling in college so i know how it works but of course i was nowhere what was it in in 3d studio max or what uh it wasn't after effect so it was a very basic virtual camera, virtual lighting type situation. But it wasn't like I was building scenes from scratch or anything like that. Gotcha, gotcha. But when you are working with software like this, I'm guessing it's pretty demanding.

Do you need like a pretty hardcore setup? Do you need the desktop to do the stuff you do? Yeah, so like the computer that I have now, and I need to upgrade. I'm actually in the process of upgrading. But you need a bunch of video cards to be quite honest. And sort of the more video cards you have, the faster it is. And for stills, it's not as necessary. But once you start doing video, you need like you need some beefy hardware.

And so, you know, when they do again, these Pixar movies, they have they're called render farms. And they're just massive massive just you know banks and banks of computers because the thing that's very hard with the the um doing this and video games you know are obviously running basically making 3d stuff in real time but they're taking a huge amount of shortcuts to make it faster versus what i do the light is calculated in a much more specific much much more accurate, like physically accurate way in terms of like how it bounces off of, you know, objects and how it interacts with things in the scene. So the way the materials and the light works, that's what

makes it take really long to like render. Right. How long is a render of a project? Each image, I would say it really depends on the image and what's in it. There's certain things where if you have some, you know, kind of like complex glass where you've got light going through glass and it's like sort of, you know, making refractions and reflections and stuff. You know, certain things can take longer. I would say on average, I'll usually it's not that long. like have it rendering in the background and then I'll sort of save like kind of like a proxy copy and start working on it in Photoshop because a lot of times or not a lot of times every all the time I will sort of get it to a certain point in Cinema 4D and then I'll kind of take it into Photoshop and like okay drawing blood drawing you know milk whatever and just you know sort of finish out the

like details of the picture in Photoshop just because because it's way, way faster than sort of doing it all like natively in 3D. Gotcha. So if the if it's like a half hour, I'm just ballparking like a half hour. Yeah, it could be like, yeah, something like that. 1520 minutes, something like that. Okay. And what happens is it gets sort of like, it shows you the image right away, but it's very grainy. And then it will get like clearer and clearer and clearer over time, like it will slowly sort of resolve and get like, you know, Chris Intel, it's it will, you can just let it keep going for like a really, really long time and it'll get like super insanely sharp.

Right. Are you trying to get like 30 nineties, like in SLI together? Like, is that the ideal setup for your work? Yeah. Honestly, that is like the, the, you know, getting super beefy cards like that. That is, you know, definitely makes a massive, massive difference. If you're ever, I guess, not at your desktop where you're doing work, like you mentioned on a flight

or something like that, how, does that change the work at all? Or are you just like, all right, it's going to take longer? No, it definitely changes the work because there's things, it can be so slow that it's like, if I do this, like it will be, it will take like an hour or something to do it and it's like and usually when i'm traveling i don't have as much time um so it definitely absolutely sort of like changes the work and changes what's possible because if you have you know a mobile and i've got a decent laptop but if you have you know just

one graphics card versus you know having at home here i've got like eight of them between two computers sort of like network together well then it's literally like eight times slower so now something that you know would take maybe 10 minutes to render is now taking 80 minutes to render so it can make a big big difference in the like you know what's even possible yeah that's that's another thing we both have to deal with is like if I'm working with 8K red raw footage, I literally refuse to take my laptop to that entire edit. I'll either change cameras or change the video to not have to deal with it on the laptop.

So that's for sure a pretty nice benefit. I can't, those video files, like raw, like 8K, like it is insane how big they are. Like they're just massive. That's one thing that i i you know feel lucky to not have to deal with that stuff especially when it's long it's like oh that is that is no joke but you kind of you kind of build your workflow around it in a way like you say you have eight gpus networked together like when you deal with like 700 gigs for a single project it's

like okay i just need a lot more fast storage and that's just something i know i have to deal with like 700 gigs for a single project it's like okay i just need a lot more fast storage and that's just something i know i have to deal with but eventually you build the setup around what you you know you have to do so sure sure it's been it's been it's been all right it's been all right so far um i want to get super nerdy just on the the specs of your setup just like what what sort of gpus or what specifically do you look for in like new equipment to help your work get better? People ask about cameras all the time. I can only recommend so many things about a camera before I'm getting too specific for the person. But what do you look for in stuff that makes your work better?

Sure. Honestly, with like GPUs and stuff, it's really literally just like the fastest one you can get. And usually they're just sort of, you know, NVID Nvidia GPUs work the best with the software that I use. So it's just, you know, if you can afford a 3090, get a 3090. If you can afford a, you know, 2080, then get a 2080. And so it really is quite linearly sort of like, you know, speeds up the more you get. So the only thing I would say about that, though, is I really like I get that question a lot, too. And I really am very cognizant of people sort of like, well, I don't have this video card, so I can't do it. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's a bullshit excuse.

That is a bullshit excuse. You can do it with anything. And I was doing this with a much crappier computer. For a while, I had this netbook that was just like a complete piece of crap. Like the computer that I had 13 years ago when I was doing these is nothing compared to what I have now. So I would really caution people against sort of like I need XYZ hardware to get started. No, you don't. That is just an excuse that your mind is telling you to put this off.

You could get started tomorrow with whatever computer you have. You could download a free copy of Blender. Boom. Get started. 100%. People ask, what can I buy right now to start a video? Look, if you're talking to me on the phone right now, that phone has a camera and you can get started. It's right there. One last random question on that. What's the weirdest place you've ever found yourself working on a piece of your art? that's a good question um i mean i've been like camping places like that um i've been in that's a good question it's usually not that because it's sort of like i'll plan ahead it's usually not like that uh that i will sort of like do it in a weird place because i

can't sort of predict what's gonna happen so sort of if i know it's gonna be a weird day we're traveling or something's gonna happen i'll just get it done right away in the morning and just like then i can relax too because then it's sort of like it's kind of hanging over me a little bit not a huge amount but it's sort of like i gotta do that what if this happens what if the car breaks down how am i gonna get to this like i'll just kind of plan ahead to make sure we don't have a Not a huge amount, but it's sort of like, I got to do that. What if this happens? What if the car breaks down? How am I going to get to this? Like, I'll just kind of plan ahead to make sure we don't have a, we don't get to, we don't have another flight to Brazil here. That's smart.

So we got to talk about NFTs for a bit, of course. Let's do it. I understand them. I've read and learned about the fundamentals. I've had conversations with a friend, Justin Maller, who's a digital artist a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like digital artists really are at the forefront of why NFTs are in headlines and are really cool. When did you first discover NFTs? I'm sure it immediately connected with the digital art world in your mind, but what was the beginning of that process like? Yeah, so it was not that long ago. It was literally, again, I've been making digital

art for a very long time, but I really only sort of connected or sort of got, became aware of NFTs in mid-October of last year. So really not that long ago. People kept hitting me up and being like, oh, you got to look at this NFT thing. You got to look at this NFT thing. And when I finally did, it was just like, oh my god, this is like insane. Like I didn't think you could sell a video, you know, or a picture like this, much less for this amount of money. Like this is crazy. So I really just instantly sort of like connected with it. And from there, it was just down the rabbit hole and just like reaching out to anybody in the space, collectors, artists, you know, CEOs of these platforms, developers, anybody who would talk to me to be like, what's going on here?

What's possible? What's not possible? What have people done before? And so it is just a very exciting, interesting space that moves very, very quickly. That's the other thing. It is like super, super fast that things progress. So it really keeps things quite fresh. 100%. You gave an interview not that long ago that I found was really interesting where you're like explaining other possible future uses of NFTs. So obviously you have the certificate

of authenticity for the piece of art. So digital art is going great. But, you know, potentially in the future, you're talking about like other documents where you need to certify originality, like a title for a house or a deed or a car or whatever that is. Is that like a long term future? What kind of path do you see between today and that? Yeah, I think that's where I think, you know, and I've talked to a couple of people. I talked to Mark Cuban and it was like, is this what it was like in the beginning of the Internet? He's like, this is exactly what it was like. And that this technology is really quite simple.

It's just, again, proving ownership of something that that can be applied and you can put rules on top of that that can be applied to so many different things that i really truly believe like you know five years ten years from now or whatever we'll have tons of nfts and most of them will just be boring stuff where you're like okay here's the nft for my iphone, you know, it could be as simple as if you have an NFT for the iPhone and you want to sell it to somebody, you transfer the NFT to them, hand them the phone, boom, done. And sort of like that is what ties it, ties the two together, ties the physical to the thing. It's backed by the blockchain.

So I think there's going to be a massive, massive amount of different, you know, applications for this and that we've just barely barely scratched the surface um and that i think it's super super exciting you know technology that i think right now it is very speculative it is very sort of like don't go in there and be like oh if it's an nft it's automatically worth something that's not remotely true and so there again you know the beginning of the internet there was a lot of stuff and there was a lot of like you made a web page okay here's 10 million dollars like you know people just going crazy um but and there was a bubble and it burst but it didn't kill the internet people kept using the internet and that's where i think you're going

to see with this i think it's you know there's a lot of excitement, a lot of hype, but I think there's going to be some real projects that have lasting value and sort of like, you know, either utility to make people's lives easier or connect with, you know, connect with people on an emotional level. So I think we're really, really just right at the beginning. That makes a lot of sense. Like that, the Carfax, you know, today, like relying on that older version of a certificate of ownership versus this backed by blockchain version of the future seems like the same thing seems like the beginning of the internet versus the beginning of this new format. So I like I like thinking about it that way. But also the nature of the bubble is like,

you're going to get I'm curious what you think of NBA Top Shot, but you're going to get things that seem a little bit crazy, just because it's the beginning that you have to use your common sense on whether you should actually get invested in or not. I really like Top Shot. I think it's really good. And I do, I know that every single play that people are paying money for, or that's the thing. It's sort of like as a concept i think top shot's absolutely gonna be around now you know xyz player dunking on this player in some random game you know is that is anybody it's it comes down to this in 10 years is anybody gonna care about this thing if in 10 years or 20 years people are still gonna care about that specific dunk then it will be worth money. If in 10 years, nobody cares

about that dunk, it will be worth nothing. And so it's like anything else. It's you got to think like long term, is somebody going to care about this work in the future? Is it culturally relevant that it has some history has some staying power? That's what's going to keep things actual to hold their value over time. I fully agree with that. For the NFT art, is there, do you think maybe some sort of like a generational gap possible where it's hard for a lot of people when I explain this to like my parents, for example, it's like, so you don't, you don't get a thing, you pay the money, but you don't get to hold it. Like you've bridged this gap with, you know, the physical items that you get to send people, the little case, the holographic scan thing, all that stuff. I think that's a great way to mentally bridge that gap to feel like you're getting something for your money when you

buy it. But do you think that's something that's hard for people like to understand? It's very, very hard. It's a different concept, but it's also a concept that we have in a number of different, you know, arenas. And I've sort of gone back and forth with a bunch of analogies because, again, this isn't really about restricting ownership of something. It's not about sort of saying you can't see this thing because everybody can see these things online. But that's not what gives it value, the fact that you can stop people from seeing it. What gives it value is that it's popular and everybody sees it and everybody wants it. That's what is like sort of giving these things value. And the physical thing, again, let's go back to a baseball card. What is a baseball card? It's just a little piece of cardboard. Yeah. Like, what are you buying? Like, you're you it's like, oh, my God, you spent like, you know,

three hundred thousand dollars on a little piece of cardboard. Why would you do that? But everybody accepts the baseball cards, a Mickey Mantle rookie card has value because you know what it symbolizes. It symbolizes that person's career. It symbolizes that work. It symbolizes that sort of, you know, excellence in this thing. And so really it's just a little piece of cardboard

and a painting is no different. It's like, it's just a stretched canvas, piece of cloth with some like drips of paint on it. Well, it's like, well, why would you pay for that? The actual physical thing is like stupid. It's nothing. And so, um, this is no different. It's sort of like, does this connect with people? Does this have some cultural relevance? If so, it has value. Like that's all it is. Yeah. I kind of had that moment in the shoe world where it was like, I realized I I'm in the same world. I'll, I'll see a pair of shoes for three grand. And I'm like, this is just cloth and glue and rubber. What is going on here? But that's the same thing you talk about. Like if it has value, it symbolizes. like a real Louis Vuitton bag.

You could just get a fake one cheaper. Why would you do that? That's stupid. You could say that's super dumb. Their whole business is just a sham because it's sort of like you could just get the things, but it's like, you know, it's not the same. It's different when you go into the store

and there's that experience and you buy it. So we attach value to things that a ton of different things. This is just a new thing. People will get used to it and people will come around to it and see that it's like, okay, there's a bunch of different digital, you know, sort of virtual things that we already attach value to. You know, a blue check mark. Well, what if you could just

pay for that little blue check mark? Would that mean something? It doesn't really do anything. You know, people would pay an insane amount if they could just buy those. And so it's one of these things where we attach a ton of value to virtual things. It's going to take a second for people to come around to this, but they absolutely will. I'm very, very sure. For sure. All right. Last big question. Whenever you talk about like a technology that's emerging or going well, I feel like you always have to consider the downside. Even with my own tech videos, the downside, some people would suggest is like this rampant consumerism where people are just super focused on the latest, newest thing and wasting what they don't buy. Do you think a lot about the downside, the environmental impact that's talked a lot about in the NFT world?

And what do you think about that? Yeah, it's definitely something that needs to improve. There is, and this is sort of blockchain in general, there's, you know, sort of a criticism of blockchain is sort of that these transactions use a lot of electricity. And they do use like a lot of electricity. Unfortunately, with NFTs, there's been, you know, this guy made this website that was wildly inaccurate and got people a bit jacked up more than they actually are. But they're still not good. There's still very much room to improve. more than they actually are, but they're still not good.

There's still very much room to improve. And so actually, just this weekend, there's going to be like a charity thing with like Open Earth that, you know, I'm donating a piece to and a bunch of other artists do. And I've been talking with the platforms to sort of see what we can do to sort of offset credits and stuff, because to be quite honest, it's not actually that expensive to sort of just completely offset these things with carbon credits and make it carbon neutral so it's something where i personally think it's going to improve very rapidly the other thing where where i'm you know confident it will improve quickly is because there's no sort of like vested interest in making it sort of continually use a lot of electricity versus cars it's sort of like well yeah we got all this

oil we kind of let's kind of keep using the oil and they kind of push it back versus with this like if these get easier and like use electricity everybody wins like nobody is like benefits from these things taking more time to compute so i think it will will you know be something that improves quite quickly that's but it does need improve. It definitely does need to improve if this needs to be sustainable. And if we're using a ton of NFTs, it will have to improve to get to the level where you're like getting an NFT for your, you know, iPhone and stuff like that. Right. That's a really good point. I'm going to, I'm going to be keeping my eye on that for sure. Um, all right. So what, what is the future of Beeple? Like the, the, you've done some collabs

in the past that I think are really cool. Even Treelon Musk and the Mr. Beast team trees. Yeah, I talked to him a few days ago and he's like, oh, that was you with the Treelon Musk. Yeah. Do you have, as someone who sold a $69 million NFT, is there any future thing you're still looking

to possibly be able to do with your art or is it just keep getting better? Oh, absolutely. So I really look at this as like, you know, it's $69 million. That's an investment. Like that is somebody I look at it myself almost as like a tech company, really, that it's sort of like, okay, if you're giving me that amount of money, that's not just I like this pretty picture, like, come on, like, that's your $69 million. And so I want to see you get a return on that money. That's good for you. That's good for me in terms of, you know, my career and everything.

So I'm very much taking that money and sort of reinvesting it into more ambitious art projects. So we're going to see some weird stuff. We're going to see some weird, weird stuff coming up here. And there's going to be a lot. I feel like people need to stay hydrated because there's going to be a lot of tears of people offended and people not liking it. And so we got to make sure we pace ourselves with the outrage, everybody pace yourself. Because yeah, there's just a ton of fun things. And also sort of like, you know, giving back, there's there's so much to do there. And that's something that I've always been, you know,

wanting to give back as much as I can, because I've been insanely, insanely blessed with this. And this is like, you know, a lot of people are, you know, I view this, this position I'm in as being insanely lucky. And well, you put in the work, dude, it's like, okay, yeah, that's fine. But like, I was getting paid decent before, like, come on. Like, this is not something where it was sort of like, I was just toiling away in obscurity and sort of, you know, receiving no benefits from this. Like this is insanely, insanely lucky. I didn't invent NFTs. I didn't even see these coming a few months ago.

So it's like to be in this position right now, I feel super, super lucky. And I want to, you know, do everything I can to give back for sure. Love that, man. Well, listen, if you ever are trying to do some like live action stuff, we've got some cameras in the studio here. So you're welcome. Nice. You're in New York, right? Yeah.

Right across the river. Yeah. Nice. Awesome. Yeah, definitely. I actually am thinking about coming up to New York pretty quick here. So yeah, maybe we'll hit you up. That sounds awesome.

I would love to drop by the studio. I've definitely seen you guys got some toys in there. Yeah, for sure. It's got some toys. Yeah. So you can come through anytime you want. You're invited back on the podcast when we do a video version but this has been a great talk thanks for your time i'm sure you have a ton more to do so i appreciate it thanks for joining us awesome thank you so much

all right so thanks again to mike for joining me and spending a lot of time guarantee he's a busy guy so that was much appreciated let's take a quick break and when we come back andrew and i will chat about what we learned. You never know. Ambition is on the inside. So that thing you love, keep doing it. Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. Support for the show today comes from NetSuite. Anxious about where the economy is headed? You're not alone. If you ask nine experts, you're likely to get 10 different answers. So unless you're a fortune teller and it's perfectly okay that you're not, nobody can say for certain. So that makes it tricky to future-proof your business

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So that was a fun 45 minutes, pretty jam-packed with information. I feel like we could have talked another 45 minutes, to be honest, just because we could just talk about the whole tech world and creative world for a while. But don't be surprised if we haven't back on. I think that was so worth the time. And we have some takeaways, I feel like. Yeah, I'm still in awe just how, I think I was listening to it sitting here

and in like 10 minutes and I was like, wow, we've got to be pretty close to time. There have been so many questions answered and we weren't. So that was probably one of the most fun interviews I think we've done on the channel so far. One of my best takeaways from that is I really like his take on Top Shot.

I remember I talked about Top Shot maybe a week or two ago on Waveform, and I think I mentioned something like, eh, it's kind of pointless. You don't really own the moment. The plays are artificially limited. Who's going to care about Top Shot in a couple years? And I think that's because there's so many plays

that people are buying that I feel like are meaningless. Like a random, you know, dribble crossover layup in a game that you're going to forget a week later. It feels silly to pay a thousand bucks for that. But he's right about moments that people will feel like they are attached to and will remember in a long time will hold onto their value better. So whenever this bubble breaks,

because I think we all agree it's a bubble, whenever this bubble bursts, those types of things will hold their value much better than the sort of meaningless things that don't make any sense. Yeah, I feel like you could use Top Shot as almost just like a microcosm of what NFTs in general are going to become,

is that Top Shots right now, like you said, some of those plays are going to be, like are going to become is that top shots right now, like he said, some of those plays are going to be, you're going to remember in 10 years. I think he said, if you remember this play in 10 years, it will hold value. Like that's what you should be looking for. But if it's just a random three point shot in like the second quarter of a doesn't matter what game in the regular season, that probably doesn't really hold any value. And he's also said in other interviews before that NFTs are in this huge bubble and that when that bubble pops, all the things that have specific personal value to people or hold some sort of memory or whatever is that's what's going to keep prevailing. And the bubble burst is just mostly going to get rid of

most of the garbage that's out there. The that people are just creating to jump on this NFT hype right now. And that is a lot. This whole place is littered with it. One of my favorite things to do is make analogies and to compare sort of similar things and see how many parallels they are and maybe tie a bunch of strings together. And it helps me better understand and explain things, in my opinion. And my favorite parallel that I think we got to at some point in the middle of that was how Mark Cuban referenced it as kind of like a new beginning of the internet type thing, where it's kind of hard to understand at first and kind of anything in that world automatically gets extra attention and potential financial incentive. Like, oh, you made a dot com. This is huge. And we all described it as a bubble and it did burst, but it did leave an obviously lasting change on a lot of fundamental things that it just made a

lot of sense for, like sharing videos, sharing, you know, FaceTime, like communication, just a ton of things that the internet enabled. And the other part of that was like an NFT being a certificate of authenticity could just be your car title or your phone's proof of like ownership where you're definitely the only owner and not lying about it on eBay. Like that's a real actual use case that I could see being a fundamental like driver of why NFTs are our future. And so that I found that really interesting. I think like if we actually give it the benefit of the doubt, not just the benefit of the doubt, but like actually giving it the credit it deserves for the things that it does well

in the blockchain, I think you could see like a future where NFTs are everywhere. But also he's totally right about like baseball cards being a piece of cardboard with ink on them and having a value just because of what we associate them with. Well, and specific ones, too. I mean, even if you go to like Pokemon cards, they're 25 years old right now or something like that. And we're seeing this big influx of people collecting them and them going for crazy amounts of money. But those are the very specific, very rare and ones that held value. Like when you were a kid and you opened up a booster pack and it had Charizard in it, that something happened then and you were very

excited for it. And bringing that nostalgia back right now is why people are spending money. No one cares about those Weedle or Metapod cards that are out right now. Those are all in the trash. They're worth absolutely nothing. So I think when that bubble bursts, whether it's nostalgia, whatever it does that makes you hold value to it is what's going to prevail on that, for sure. So you know what's a common thread that I've tied through all of the things that NFTs could be useful for? What's that? Collecting. Yeah. Collectors. So we talked about baseball cards, basketball cards. We've talked about Pokemon cards. Even if you want to turn this into like buying a gadget online or buying shoes, people collect shoes. There is always an inflated perceived value over the actual physical value of the object in collecting. So you might literally

collect a bunch of coins that have a literal value, but are worth more to you because they're significant. Same thing with cards. It's cardboard. Same thing with shoes. It's just laces and rubber and fabric, but they're worth more to you and you want specifically to know that this version that you're buying is the original because it has a significance to you that only the original can have. When I buy a pair of shoes that was worn by somebody, if I was a collector, I would really want a great way to know that this exact pair of shoes was definitely the one that was worn by the person. And in the digital world, NFTs are that thing. And if we can somehow cross the bridge of connecting NFTs to the world of physical collections,

where, you know, people are doing this with Pokemon cards now, people are doing this with actual trading cards now. The NBA is doing a version of this with Top Shot, and it's not really connected to the physical world. But I think the more strings we tie between NFTs and physical collections, the more it will make sense to be the future. Yeah. And I think the benefit of this is the collectible aspect is what is creating the hype behind it and the reason that everyone knows about NFTs. But like Mike said, there's way more to that in this future certificate of authenticity that could actually help our everyday lives. Like he said, it's all going to be really boring stuff,

but it's going to be, we're in a digital age and that is just how we're going. So it's actually, you know, the collectible hype is helping us build the technology better for something in the future. And I really like that he's someone who's not just focused only on his art and how NFTs are making money, but how NFTs can, he just seems to really enjoy technology and what blockchain technology is. And the fact that he's already looking into the future a couple months into learning about it is just a really awesome thing to see. Yeah. I wouldn't want anyone else in the driver's seat like he is right now. Obviously, considering the downsides we talked about, considering giving back like we talked about, there's a lot of things he's got on his mind that I think make a lot of

sense. So that's a good place probably to end it. I feel like we learned a lot. This is my favorite episode. I've been excited for this recording for since he said he'd do it. So I'm glad we got to make it happen Yeah, all right. Well, that's been it if you guys have any comments or questions Feel free to drop us a line on Twitter at WVF RM. You know where to get to us But until then we'll talk to you guys in the next episode. Take it easy waveform is produced by Adam Molina It is created in partnership with studio 71 and our intro outro music was created by Cameron Barlow