Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - Your Luxury Car Now Has Ads!

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

This week, Marques, Andrew, and David talk about the newest Spiderman x BMW collab that has everyone angry before debating whether the EU should make Apple share some features with Windows computers. Then it's all about CMF and their newest earbuds (modeled by AI models ) and a few quick hits about wearables. It's a long one this week but it was also still a fun one. Enjoy! Links: Reddit - BMW x Spiderman Ford Fathom Verge - Apple to Windows Copy-Paste MacWorld - Fitbit syncs to Apple Health CMF by Nothing Twitter Casio ring watch Keychron Twitter This episode brought to you by: Framer: https://www.framer.com/waveform Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/waveform Follow us on socials: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Waveform TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Powders, pills, plunges. Everywhere you look, there seems to be a new wellness trend. We all want to feel good. And if there's a way to feel better, I think, wouldn't you want to try it? I would. What's the cost of being well? And why are we so obsessed with it in the first place? That's this week on Explain It to Me.

Find episodes every Sunday wherever you get your podcasts. That's weird. All right. Well, this is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I'm not a lawyer. I would not recommend doing this. This isn't legal advice, but like, I would. I wouldn't do this.

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I personally would not do this. New sound by just drop. Yo, what is up? People of the Internet, welcome back to another episode of the Wayform podcast. We're your host. I'm Marquez. I'm Andrew. I'm David. This week, it feels like the calm before the storm of smartphone season. We have a bunch of different various topics that aren't too gigantic, but that's because we know it's around the corner.

It's about to be mid-August and then September. So what do we got? Let's see. a couple different health trackers, including thoughts on Garmin Circa, ads are in BMWs, that's fun. A new Ford EV truck, that's hopefully more fun. EU making Apple add more cross-platform features. We can talk about that and a few other quick hits.

But first, did they even test this? I have one for YouTube. So we all know that on YouTube you can send each other videos, right? Correct. They recently implemented this very weird feature. where if you use the share sheet and you send it to a friend, whether it's through Slack, through text, whatever, and they click that link.

It is now a special tracking link that knows that the friend sent it to you. So then when you open the link, now you'll have the video, but below the video, instead of just seeing the comments or the description of the video, you'll see a little reply function, which has you reply directly to the person who sent it to you, which is really, really dumb. This whole thing, in general.

Did we talk about, sorry to interrupt this, did we talk about this on the podcast? Because the other day I sent a video in Slack and it like opened a DM with both of you guys because you opened it through Slack. But I thought both of you were DMing me and I just assumed it was because you were testing a new feature. And I didn't realize it was because I sent the link. Yeah. This is the other bad thing. Yeah, it's very weird. We all know that they need, YouTube is trying to make itself more of a social media.

platform, there are better ways to do this. I have suggested implementations such as a recommendation feed where your friends just hit recommend on videos and then it just shows all the videos your friends recommended. Dude, if Instagram's main feature is sending each other reels, then what they're trying to copy which is, yeah, sort of what they're trying to copy with this, but there should just be a feed of your friends recommended videos in YouTube. That's Adam pressing that. Let me get around to the day.

If that were the case, how would they make money? Answer me that. It would make a lot. Riddle me that. It would keep you on the platform much longer. Not nearly as much as algorithmic slot, bro. Well, it turns into algorithmic slop, but then you don't know where it goes. The feature they shipped is way worse.

This is really stupid. It doesn't clear that they're just copying the feature where you send so on an Instagram real, which just opens a DM between you. And now there's messages in YouTube. This is the thing that's new. My theory is they tested this, but only a little bit. They only tested this a tiny. Well, they clearly only tested it a little, a little bit,

because the actual point of my, did they even test this, is that now it opens the video, and instead of seeing the comments right below the video or the description, it shows a little, like, reply to the person who sent it to you thing. Like on mobile. On mobile. And there is a little three dot icon in the top right

indicating that there are three different sort of menus that you can swipe between. Not very clear at first. Not clear. And I just want to get to the general. general comment section, right? Because like, why would I reply to Andrew in YouTube? Because then he has to open YouTube and read my message in YouTube. And it's like if a friend sent it to you, they probably texted it to you. They probably send it over like it's some sort of messaging app. Whatever. Anyway, I want to get to the general comment section. The only way to do that is to touch in the extreme center of the reply like area where where, well, to touch and then swipe from the center of the reply area to Andrew, right? Because there's the three dots. If you, if you try to swipe from anywhere in that area to get to the next screen, it just doesn't do anything. But the touch

target area is like a razor thin margin in the center of that reply area. Yeah. And if you touch anywhere except for the reply section, you can't get to the comment section. So I legitimately could not figure out how to get to the general comments of this YouTube video until I could, I walked over to Andrew and I was like, how does this work? And then he eventually was like, I swiped it in the right spot, essentially. For audio listeners, if you can't, if you remember when we talked about the hype feature, essentially when under a video in mobile, it almost feels like a bubble now is like comments and you click it and that's where you type. But if you swipe over, that's where hype is, which I think still exists somehow. And then if you swipe one more time,

that's where the reply thing would be. But it defaults to that slide. Yeah. That's what the three Datsy's talking about for each individual page, I guess. Yeah. And because of where you type, the top says like reply and then under it, it says like the boxed for where to type in. Yeah. If you swipe on the top of the little bubble, nothing happens. Or actually it was just like going into full screen, I think.

Yeah. And then if you swipe a little under, then it actually swipes the pages. So the touch target is razor thin. Yeah. Just super confusing touch target. And I just also think that replying to your friend that sent it to you in general inside of YouTube makes no sense. I feel like I can see how this went. They did the usual thing where they're like, we would like people to spend more time on YouTube versus other platforms.

And we know that people text each other YouTube videos, but then we want them to stay on YouTube after they watch the video. Kind of like how on Instagram they might DM each other videos. Okay, so let's do like a 0.1% test where a tiny fraction of accounts, we'll just see if it keeps them on YouTube longer if we have a built-in messaging feature. where instead of replying or commenting in the text thread, they can do it on YouTube. And it did satisfy the metric of keeping people on YouTube longer, so they were like, all right, technically, this is a successful test. Let's roll it out.

And now everyone's sending each other videos and text threads. And then it opens up and we're getting all this, do you want to keep messaging them on YouTube thing? And we kind of don't. I mean, Adam Missouri has said that that form of sharing reels is like the reason so much, one of the main reasons people stay on Instagram so long. So YouTube knows why. The problem is, is it's not that YouTube didn't have the feature. It's that Instagram was a place that people used to talk already. Yeah. So therefore, that first party integration is so much easier and

fluent and recognizable by people. No one on YouTube does that. No one on YouTube talks to their friends on YouTube. Instagram is already practically a messaging app that happens to have like reels and other stuff built in. YouTube is a consumption app that nobody was talking to each through before. And you know what's funny about that? YouTube used to have an inbox and a messaging feature.

This was back in the day, I don't know when they stopped when they got rid of it. This might be a trivia question, who knows? But I remember when I first started my YouTube channel, there were channel comments. So you could, kind of like

writing on someone's Facebook wall, you could leave a comment on someone's channel. And there were messages that you could just literally like send, it could add someone as a friend and then message them in the inbox.

So every single person that's subscribed to the MKBHD channel, I would get an email for it, and I would use that email to open up their profile and send them a message and write a comment on their profile saying, thanks for subscribing. And my theory was that people would see a comment on someone's channel that says thanks for subscribing, and they'd go, oh, someone said thanks for subscribing. Let me check out why they subscribe. And they would see my channel and they would go, oh, that's cool. And they would subscribe to you.

I don't know if that actually worked. Growth hacking. But I was kind of in the early stages. is like, if I just say thank you to everyone, maybe that will have some positive impact. Now we just have AI Marquez talk to the fans. No, that's actually an Instagram feature. But no, now, so they,

I think I had to eventually stop doing that because I was getting too many emails. And I think I did, actually, I did a giveaway once, which then there were like 3,000 emails in one day, and I was like, I can't keep doing this. Yeah, yeah. So I stopped doing that. Then they got rid of the feature,

but at one point, there was an inbox on YouTube. What is so ironic about it? so ironic about this is you can see now how Google Plus would be an amazing thing. Yeah. Because that would be a social network where people could easily integrate YouTube videos. We could also Google. You could share YouTube videos. You could have friends.

You could DM. There would be messaging. Like now Google Plus would be an amazing idea. But as usual, Google is just too early to everything. Yeah. YouTube is like they've chased things in different directions. Like today we talk a lot about how they chase TV. like your channel is like a TV channel

and like all these TV features but back in the day they were chasing other things and I think those might have been better things to chase. I don't think it's a problem that they're too early I think they kill it too soon. I mean to be fair since I shared with you guys I've never seen that thing pop up again and I know I've clicked on other people's YouTube links

or sent YouTube links. This is the other thing too like Andrews sent me a video and it's been like chat to Andrew and I'll chat to him and it doesn't even send him a notification that I like replied to his videos. Did you actually do it? I've done it pretty. Can I try?

one right now. I might be because he has notifications. Why you're trying that, I want to also throw this. So, YouTube both clicked on a link in Slack and it, like, opened that DM that I was confused by. Yeah. If you were to copy that link from Slack

and send it to your friend that I don't know, would it open with me, right? Probably. That's... Unless there's some sort of hidden tracker link that you can't even see in the URL. The reason it got annoying is because I would share a video on, like, threads or Twitter, and then I would get a bunch of notifications

that people had accepted my request and wanted to message me. That has happened to mention me. And I didn't want to message any of those people. I just tweeted to publicly share a video link and it just opened inboxes with everyone who put it. She's insane. I don't even know how I would get to those messages now. Maybe they turned it off.

I don't know. This was happening a lot last week to me. Oh, no. Because I shared a video on Twitter or something and I was at the gym and I suddenly started getting a bunch of notifications that people were trying to DM me. Yeah. Maybe they've walked it back a little bit

or realized that public accounts need to be able to share. You did react? I reacted. I know what. That's what I'm talking about. That's confusing. I don't understand. Anyway, free business advice to YouTube from a guy who dropped out of college.

All you need is a feed of friends recommendations and you just hit recommend on the video. Because I, look, the feature on Instagram, the best feature on Instagram on Reels is when it shows you Reels that your other friends have liked. I love that feature. It's actually pretty nice. David, you're thinking too logically, man. These are good features. You need to stop. You need to stop.

Copy this. This is Google. This is Google. But I would love to just like watch the videos that my friends are watching and recommending because then when we meet up in person, we can talk about them. It's weirdly the nicest antidote in a while to the like internet. What is it called? The dead internet, not dead internet, but like where everyone's internet is so personalized

that you are the only one seeing the videos that you watch and everyone else's videos are totally personalized to them. So when you go. It's like for you effect. you go to school the next day, you're like, hey, did you see that video? Nobody else saw that video. This is really the best antidote to that. Yeah. Anyway, 100%.

Speaking of free business ideas, if you're a car company and you want to make a bunch of money, what if you just, like, put ads on all the cars as soon as they turned on? Wouldn't that be great? I think that would work. I need to buy a vintage car. I think if you had, like, a high enough tech car, maybe, like, all of your car since 2022 have internet connections. 2020.

And maybe there's, like, a movie coming out. You just, like, put the trailer. on the screen of the car. And then you just make a ton of money. Like that's like a great business idea, right? So insane. Am I overlooking anything? Isn't this not great?

Every day we get close to the question here. This is crazy. All right. Well, I guess I'll tell BMW to do that. Oh, wait, they already did that. People got very annoyed. Yeah. Yeah, they, um, people were reporting that they got a Spider-Man ad

during their BMW startup this past week. And confirmed by BMW, this, quote, special surprise is part of a quote, broader brand partnership and is running from July 27th to August 10th. Basically, it's like certain BMW operating systems are all getting this, but essentially any car made after 2020. When you started it up, you got this little pop-up that says something about Spider-Man. And if you click it, it then shows this like, it's not a trailer for the movie. It's this weird integration of like a BMW SUV driving down the street going into the city and then like Spider-Man watching and like zipping around the city.

It even uses the ambient lighting in your car as part of it. And it's weird. It's terrible. Unrelated. There are a lot of great pre-2020 BMWs on cars and bids. Not enough. Yeah. Every day when one of these car companies just uses your internet connection to do

worse and worse things, I just think about getting a vintage car again. It's, there's such a, first of all, in 2023, when they were releasing a bunch of larger infotainment systems, their senior VP of Connected Company Development claimed, quote, to say I'm selling the screen to play a commercial, I don't see it. It's a private space. Excuse me? Apparently not that private, because here's a Spider-Man ad right for you. It's a commercial. It's a commercial, yeah. Exactly what it is. I called it. I kept wanting to see it.

I don't see it. article saying that like that maybe BMW is attempting to put this under the like festive like you know Halloween and Christmas like festival but I don't even think they're doing this because they called it a brand partnership like yeah they got

I mean I can't confirm because I'm not in the back deals but I assume this Spider-Man thing wasn't just for the lulls like they got paid to put this here yeah of course that's what it could have been it could have been an Easter egg and like just release it to put it somewhere in the car.

Maybe there is the integration. Maybe Marvel had a BMW. Because there's all a cross-promotion inside a lot of movies as well. But if it's some sort of Easter egg where you have to like tap this steering wheel button four times or do the Konami code or whatever and then it pops

up, then that's a cool Easter egg because it doesn't almost force you to watch. To be fair, you had to click it but it still came up. But like if this was a just a But if this is a buried Easter egg where it gave you a little extra thing

about the new Spider-Man and like somebody quote leaked it and then people were going and searching for it, then it's fun. Then it turns into an internet thing. Imagine you buy your house and you go to turn on the sink and red water starts coming out.

And it's like Code Red. Da-da-pap-da. Oh, that's the incredible. You know what I mean. Whatever the Spider-Man. Yeah, the Spider-Man theme starts flying out of your sink. And you're just like, why?

I didn't ask for this. I'll tell you why. Because in America, there's two ways to run a successful business. You can either do the Nike, the Apple, the Hermes thing, where you convince people somehow to pay a ridiculous markup compared to what it actually costs to make the things. Or you can be Fortnite where in exchange for paying slightly less money, you can just shovel things that you think people like into their life, you know, season after season after season. Yeah. And BMW, for some reason, forgot that there's supposed to be a luxury brink. brand decided that I wanted to be Fortnite, you know, and that's okay.

It's strange philosophically because when we think about like you have a smart TV in your house, you know, we at this point we kind of expect that the Samsung smart TV that you have is going to play ads or the LG smart TV. Not ads. Special surprise. Special surprises. Broader brand. The LG TV you have is going to play special surprises. If you would put like a, I don't know, if you bought a tablet to put in your BMW that was made by San Samsung or made by what. I can maybe see an ad playing on that tablet that is not part of your car. But in this analogy, your car is your home, right? It is a place that you sit and you drive and you,

you, whatever. I just don't think that built into the infotainment system of the car, similarly to like your sink in your house, there should be things that are automatically playing against your will. I mean, first of all, the senior VP of Connected Company Development agrees with you because he called it a private space at BMW. So if anyone disagrees with you, BMW agrees with you. Yeah. I guess then first of all,

I don't want my tablet selling me ads unless it is cheaper. Apple and Samsung have done this of like trying to sell you. Remember when like the fold six came out and was still trying to sell you the fold six in a notification? Yeah. This sucks so bad. But yeah, they're like, I could understand, no, I couldn't understand anything,

but you would expect the cheaper car companies. What was the first title again, the senior VP of what? Connected company development. I would expect that in a company that's making modern cars, where they have internet connections and the ability to download software updates and new ambient lighting settings and random GPS enabled front axle lift, I would not be shocked if the senior VP of, connected whatever you said

was like, hey, I have an idea. We could make way more money from this if we also made it a billboard and they did it. Yeah. They had, I still think they had such an opportunity to actually make this almost the exact same thing,

but the user had to find it and then it turns into this like scavenger hunt kind of Easter. That would be a way better experience. It goes viral on Twitter and Instagram and everyone's actively trying to find a BMW That would be a better experience, but it would, by default, reach less people. Way less eyeballs.

I think, well, this is reaching a lot of eyeballs for the wrong reason. Yeah, BMW is like, we can sell you 30 million eyeballs right now. And Marvel or whoever Sony was like, deal. And so they just, they just did it. Yeah. Kids movies these days. To Ellis's point, that's the only way to make money. You either make a new thing or you squeeze the customer for everything they have. That's called in shitification.

Yeah. They already sold you the car. So how do we make more money? Yeah. Let's put an ad on a screen. I'm going to buy a vintage car. Can't wait for BMW season 37, man. Can I have a related reverse.

Did they even test this before we move on? Which is I've unlocked reverse because they didn't test this and it's improving my life. We're like, I like, I've gone from like, I love my LGTV all the way around to like get this thing out of my house. I hate it so much. and it's because of how poorly made the hardware and software is. But a little bit ago, part of the, so, okay, there's been a bunch of stuff coming out about how a lot of smart TVs are, like, doing lots of things on your network that you didn't give it permission to, and the modems are held up, and there's lots of traffic going in and out, and that's why a lot of them are, like, so slow and unresponsive. And my TV, a little bit ago, updated and then presented me with, like, a new user agreement, and the LG terms of service are like a million pages long, and they make you sign like 50. of them. Anyway, I realized that this time, with this user agreement, there was a later button.

And I hit the later button, and I do this every time I turn on my TV. I'm like, I'm not signing this, and it takes me to the homepage. Every time. My TV has never run so smooth. Somehow it does not have permission to do something it needs, it wants to do. But my internet and my apartment reads faster when I do speed tests. The TV is more responsive. Apps are more responsive. And there's some background process I have not, and I do have to hit later, but I'm pretty, I feel like I've slightly de-s-h-fied.

Yeah. My LG television. Until you like turn your TV on and just instinctively press okay or like press down twice and it comes back up and accept and then you're just going to throw it out the window. What's beautiful is I have six separate agreements

I need to hit. Oh no. Every time you turn it on. Well, but only one later button. So even if I slip once, and accidentally agree to something, I still have five more grades. Wow. I hope it keeps working.

We talked about the slate truck many times, especially because recently they have put out new pricing. But it turns out Ford has some competition coming. They have some competition. They've unveiled the name and starting price of what they're going to have is they're basically their mid-size electric truck platform. They're calling it Fathom. and it's going to start at $28,350 plus destination and delivery.

So call it right around $30,000 for a small or a mid-size electric truck. So basically, a lot of the people who are talking about the slate being not competitive, we're comparing it to gas trucks. And like the Maverick comes up a lot being like a $28,000 to $30,000 truck, which is fully equipped, obviously, because it doesn't need to spend money on the battery. So it can do all of the screen, air conditioning, all the power windows and stuff like that. but the slate was, I guess I was defending it because it kind of felt like it was a one-of-one without any real competition as a electric truck.

But now this will be a one-to-one competitor. This will be another small electric truck option at this low price from Ford. I'm already confused by that because mid-size. Yeah, officially the category is called mid-size. I think that would be bigger than the slate truck. Like the Rivian is a mid-size pickup truck. Yeah. But that's way, that's like significantly bigger than the slate truck.

That's like four door. So like Google says like Tacoma, Ranger, Canyon, Frontier. All about Ravian sized. Yeah, closer to Rivian R1T. Yes. So yeah, that would naturally have still more seats than the slate truck. This appears to be a more well-equipped truck than the slate truck. But we're going to get way more options later.

This is going to be coming in 2027. But it's just interesting to see us actually getting something responding to slate and slotting into this absolutely baseline super cheap electric car category. We've been waiting for sub-30,000 EVs that don't suck for 10 years now, 15 years now. It would be really funny and super American if the first under 30K EV that like really slapped was a pickup truck. Sounds like that's what we're going to be. Like because we wanted a model 2 forever.

We have Model 3 obviously knocking on the door or 30 something. Cybercab is still not here. Shocker. Just give me a key truck. Give it time. That's what, okay, I hear that a lot, but people don't really buy those. Well, I just want, I'm surprised why we can't. Yeah, because they can only go like 60 miles an hour.

Well, I guess if you could buy a gas one, like people, people just default to buying their stuff here. There is this guy. This is such a tangent. In like Detroit, that has a YouTube channel that's like making the basis for like what you're talking about. or the platform for it. And, like, there's a lot of external modification you can do. I don't know how legal is. Anyway.

Probably not very. I'm surprised. That was so basic. I'm sure there's more into it. But this feels like I would have guessed this is closer to Ranger size when I want the Maverick size, which is still four doors, smaller bed, away, a much smaller truck, but feels like something that would be closer to this price range. A Ranger is, like, quite a bit bigger than a Maverick.

Yeah. And all of them. feel like nothing compared to an F-150, and then all the truck guys are going to be like, F-150 is a lady's truck. No, you need the F-750. F-150 is a full-size pickup truck. And I think if you ever sit in one,

you're like, oh, my God, this is a massive truck. It's a big truck. So, yeah, this will be, I'm curious to keep an eye on this. It's also a platform that can theoretically be more than just this pickup truck. So we'll see more versions of low-end EVs from Ford based on this platform when they start making them. So TBD, just an interesting headline. Yeah.

Yeah. Fathom. Didn't they stop making the lightning? They did stop producing the lightning. So, yes. Is this where they're refocusing their electric efforts, I guess? Basically, yeah. And I think a lot of people read into discontinuing the lightning as, oh, well, the one thing, I mean, they make the Mustang Maki-E, but like the one thing you expect to be successful from Ford, the electric version of their best-selling vehicle didn't work well enough to sell.

They must be done with electric. But they're sort of repositioning into a way cheaper electric car. What does a regular F-150 usually start at? Let me see. It's the most popular vehicle in America, so it can't be that crazy. I guess 45. MSRP is 37,000 basically. So very interesting to me that Ford is making an electric vehicle that is cheaper than a cheap gas truck.

Gas truck. Well, one of its gas trucks. One of its gas trucks. And an uncomparable gas truck. Because they're just totally different things. Like, what does a Rangers start? Yeah, the Maverick is, yeah. The Rangers like 33.

The Maverick's like $8. Yeah, so then it's more expensive than... No, no, no, no, it is still cheaper. Yeah, sorry. I mean, if it's cheaper, then it's, like, cheapest truck. That's kind of crazy. My guess is why they're pivoting to this is F1 people still either or believe they tow.

F1 50 people? Yes. And therefore, towing with electric significantly gets harder. Therefore, that's why they're doing the new... And they're not, like, totally ditching it. They're doing the, like, electric with gas generator kind of hybrid but I bet people looking for whether this is Maverick or Ranger's size, less people in that tow while still wanting a truck bed,

et cetera, et cetera. So I guess it would hit better, even though it's not the most popular selling vehicle in the U.S. Yeah, if people are honest about themselves and what they really are getting a truck for, they can probably get the smaller one. Yeah. And if they're not honest about themselves,

they'll comment on this video. I tow once a year and it's so worth carrying around 3,000, extra pounds every time I drive. Anyway, what's the next story? The EU is requiring cross-platform clipboard from Apple to Windows. I saw this. So Adam and Marquez seemed interested in this. I wrote down some notes really quick.

Yeah. Okay, explain what it is. So I guess first, the clipboard feature. Like, you can copy and paste, obviously, on a Mac. There's a continuity feature built into Mac OS and iOS and iPad OS that lets you copy and paste between devices. So I use this all the time. I'll copy a password from one passwords on my Mac,

and I go into the text field on my iPhone, and I hit paste, and it pasts it from my Mac. It's pretty nice. It's a super useful feature. It's just for the devices in the Mac ecosystem, the Apple ecosystem. Microsoft filed an EU inoperability request asking Apple to open.

It's called Universal Clipboard, which does what you just said. and according to Mac rumors, it seems as Apple is currently working on that right now. Now, I guess the issue with, if it happened right now with what it was, every time you went to paste something, you would have to grant permissions, which is awful. The thing they're working on... It's not like the worst thing. It's one click, maybe.

Every time you paste having to accept permissions would be terrible. It's cross-device. Yeah. It's like one more click. It'd be annoying, but... I guess every time you're pacing would be really annoying. This would be, so this would open it up to, well, that's what would happen if it were available now. What they're working on would be something where allowing copy and paste the clipboard to be cross-platform through device pairing with a one-time permission.

So like it would be a device to pair. I think they said similar to something they did in iOS 26 with like watch notifications. There's something I didn't fully. I don't use Apple stuff. I didn't even know Universal Clipboard was a thing. Oh, it's amazing. So I'm learning about it through this. I use it all the time, so it's very annoying when it doesn't work.

Yeah, and I have to assume that this is one of the things where if you are in the Apple ecosystem and you use it, you know what it is. If you're not, you don't really know what it is. So the people who are, Microsoft is claiming this is one of the most requested productivity features that they would like added to Windows because there are enough people that use a iPhone and a Windows laptop. presumably probably for work. I'm sure so many people use stuff for work.

Absolutely for work. Yeah. Absolutely. So Apple is claiming that they are, let me see, that they're introducing cross-device copy and paste is a significant engineering effort with work expected to be completed by fall of 2027, which is when it would probably go into beta following full release after that.

So we're talking like 2028 by the time this potentially comes out. And as far as I know, possibly only for the EU, I don't know if that means it would come here eventually if they're going to do it anyways. So tell me, the headline you wrote here is EU requires. So is the EU requiring this? Or is this just something that Microsoft requested and Apple is working on it? I guess like there, yeah, maybe the EU is not requiring it, but it's being requested through the EU inoperability, which is under the DMCA Act. Yeah, it's a request.

It's a request, the Digital Markets Act through the EU. So it hasn't been like. like Apple's working on it. Okay. It hasn't been put into law, but Apple is working on it anyway. Yes. Okay. Here's my question about this.

Is this going, not this in particular, but is all this going a little too far? That is also my question. I think there is no middle ground on this headline. I think it is either EU's or like governing agencies are forcing tech companies to do too much with little knowledge about tech, which is like, at the head of like fair like we know governing agencies don't know a lot about technology are they stifling things but also there's a i'm sure a whole other part of this that's like 2027 apple can't just get this going right now you know they can they're actively being a monopoly yeah so i don't think there's a middle ground here in anyone responding to this even though there probably is a middle ground of like this does actually

take a whole new team to do this because of the variables for something that's something like Windows, they obviously can do cross-platform stuff way easier because they run the full stack, but also, like, yeah, EU probably is going to, or like governing agencies are going to screw some things up here every once in a while, even if they're good ideas on the surface. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. The primary question here is that, like, interoperability generally gives consumers more

control and more options. And consumers having more options allows capitalism to work better. And when you have two, when you have a duopoly in a market, you kind of generally have to make sure that there's enough interoperability so that people don't get locked into one and slowly that duopoly just merges into a monopoly. But the question becomes like, because these platforms are both like now part of our foundational daily life, but they're also companies, at what point is the regulation of forcing interoperable? interoperability just stifling the innovation and benefit of one company. And that's the weird, that's the really weird middle ground that I think these regulatory bodies have to have to mess with. The U.S. usually airs on the side of just like let the free market, free market play out. The EU generally airs on the side of like the consumer is the most important thing we should

care about. So it's been interesting to watch. I think to that question you asked Adam, my, it seems to come down to have you as a company been anti-competitive in the past, because this is how I see it. Like, we've seen the same, uh, the same headlines with like adding USB type C to the iPhone. Instead of the law being, hey, the iPhone has a lightning port, you need to make it USB type C. It wasn't exactly that. It was, you must have a standardized single port across all these things. And so USB type C was the obvious answer. And everyone, everyone was that every device that charges has to have USB Type C. Which is fine, and everyone agreed with that because we all like USB Type C, and Apple is using Lightning,

and so they update, now everything is USB Type C everywhere. But if you are, let's say, because then this is like another step over the line, this is, okay, we have interoperability between Mac and iPhone. You need to loop Windows into that, too. If you are just, like, erase the company names and erase the history of the companies in the past, and you decided you were going to build a business or a product and you just make two products that work really well with each other. And then the EU comes along and goes,

hey, you have to make that also work with these other companies' products here. They just added work to your table. They just made it less special and made it harder to work well. That would feel like they're overstepping. But it doesn't feel like they're overstepping because we all like the conclusion and also Apple has been anti-competitive, so we're okay with this.

I think the EU-DMA, act though is specifically targeted at tech gatekeepers, which is a list of specific companies. So it comes down to, has your company been anti-competitive? Which also, in a sense, feels like if you are big enough to be a gatekeeper, it's, it's harder to call it stifling because it isn't mom and pop X and Y thing that now you have to. It's like these are trillion-dollar companies that can't deal with this. We've pretty fairly assumed that the only way your product gets to be that popular is not just from being really good, but also because of some additional protective behavior.

And that's why they're able to step in. My favorite part about this was just that, like, in the DMA, the whole thing is to be, like, it's to help third-party companies not get kept out of things by these gatekeepers. Yet this whole request is Microsoft asking Apple. Like, it makes it seem like little old Microsoft is having such a rough time that, like, Big old Apple should throw it a bone. I also, well, there are B2B.

In that tier, yeah, but, like, I wonder if though, this feels like it's, depending on your point of view, picking on Apple and or Apple doing what it should, like, I just don't know if there's the equivalent on the other side of an easy maneuver, interoperability between other products that could be like, well, we want this to work on Apple and Microsoft stifling us.

It's just because Apple has it where, like, there's nothing to attack on the Android Microsoft side right now. That's a good point. Where, like, maybe, hopefully they would do the same thing to the other one. So what you're saying is Windows sucks. As a Windows user, Windows sucks. Yeah, if they have to force Apple to give Windows features, but there ain't no features on Windows, they got to force Apple to have. It's because there's less, like, ecosystem. There's not ecosystem. I know. It's locked. I know. It's ecosystem lock.

I'm trying to think of some of the ones. Aren't there's some like with Android phones and Chromebooks? Aren't there's some like a you're logging to your Google account and there's some sync that works. And this still is nowhere near as nice. It's like a device paired rather than like just like full stack just by Apple I cloud account. It's copy and paste. Like it's not, this is not like difficult to implement. You know, we like it's a clipboard. It's not like super VUK. Like, imagine the EU is like, does real meme do Supervuk? Is that their thing? It's Apo. Damn it. It's like, picture the EU being like, yo, Apo, we love Supervuk. Every device that

plugs into a Supervuk charger, regardless of if you make it, needs to charge that fast. Like, that would literally be impossible. That's an impossible interoperability ask. But copy and paste, you know, I think we've... Well, it wouldn't be impossible, but I think it's just that that type of feature is not even remotely gate kept. I think what Ellis is saying, is like copy and paste is almost like a quality of like it is an expected thing to happen. And like it's such an easy thing that everyone knows.

Your charger needs to somehow work with every single device regardless of the transformers in it and charge it at the 700 watts or whatever the Super Move does nowadays. Here's one because we've been using a bunch of different browsers. Chrome, one of the biggest browsers, right? Arguably the biggest browser. You can actively sync with the mobile Chrome app. So the mobile Chrome app on your phone syncs with the mobile Chrome app on your desktop. Poor old Apple makes Safari, and you can't actively sync your tabs and bookmarks from Chrome in Safari.

I think you can. Not actively sync. You can import them an Xbox. Oh, like you're saying. You can't have them live update the way they do if you have Chrome. Like between your phone and. Yeah. Like if you're on Safari on your phone and Chrome.

But I think the difference is if you have Chrome on your iPhone, which would be the interoperability. We need to stop using this word because I'm screwing it up. Like you can, though, put. Chrome on an iPhone on the app and like that will sync correct in a world where there's no Chrome on the iPhone we we'd be asking Google to make Safari able to sync with I think you would be making Google make an iOS app in that sense if it didn't exist I think the other thing would be you need to assuming it didn't exist because Chrome didn't put it on iOS you would be forcing Google to make an iOS app yeah I guess I'm I'm

making a convoluted situation where there's no Chrome on the iPhone. There's only Safari. Well, it would be who's blocking that would be the one getting told. Apple makes a Chrome extension called ICloud bookmarks that syncs your Chrome bookmarks live to your ICloud. Apple's such a good guy, man. Yeah, so it's made by Apple and it sinks it to your ICloud, and then those bookmarks show up in Safari. Just bookmarks. Just bookmarks. Not like it. It's not your tabs. Not like open tabs that you're actively browsing on.

Yeah. Yeah. It's still something. Yeah. I think the thing that I think about with this is like, does it actively harm the consumer? Because like if you think back to like Apple not putting RCS on the iPhone, that was like, that's making their iPhone customers have a less secure experience when they use SMS. Right. So the EU had to step in.

This, I feel like isn't that. This is like a competitive advantage. Convenience. Copy paste. I disagree. I think it is a, I think it is harmful to. consumers solely because one of the main, not main, but I would describe it as the universal clipboard is top five Apple ecosystem features that make me want to stay in the Apple ecosystem.

Yeah. And removing any sort of freedom of choice from the consumer is, you know. Yeah, but the argument would be, it's just a good feature. The argument from Microsoft would probably be like, or from Apple would probably be, well, Microsoft could make universe copy paste between its phone and computer. Oh. Oh. And they have the option to make a competitive phone.

Well, I don't know if they do now. They did 15 years ago, and they failed. So that would probably be Apple's argument. There was a world that five years ago. Could have worked. Yeah. There was also a world five years ago where this continuity was, like, added as a future. There was a world where this didn't exist.

So Apple came along and went. hey, we have iPhone, we have iPad, we have Mac, we have this continuity feature where you can use your iPhone as a webcam for your Mac, and we can like live copy and paste things between them. Yeah. Oh, great, convenient feature. I don't see any harm in not actively developing that

for other people's platforms. Yeah. But it would be nice. Yeah. So. I mean, Apple's never going to like purposely go out and build this themselves without someone to tell. Because it's a waste of resources in there.

It's the obvious. If they, and because part of that is, well, no, no, what I'm saying is. I guarantee you in the next 30 seconds, I can find five, I can find five things on the internet that Apple does that is a bigger waste of their infinite resources. Yeah, well, why would they just go out and do something to make it easier for other people to use Windows and I'm, and I'm not saying this is better for their consumers. I'm saying it's better for their pocket. Like, it's a waste of their resources in the sense of direct ROI to them. Like, maybe some users of it, but they've clearly run the stats. and that that is not positive for them,

even though it's positive for their consumers. Maybe there's some guy out there in Belgium who has to use a Windows computer for his sick gaming rig, and he also wants to own an iPhone. That's what I'm saying. You know the Tim Cook quote. Just buy your mom an iPhone. But now there's more of a reason to,

because you can copy and paste to your PC. No. I'm not saying it's good for Apple users. I'm saying Apple doesn't give a shit that it's good for Apple users. Here's one that they have. haven't added yet. The continuity camera feature. So whenever you open Zoom or any video calling app, annoyingly, they're like, would you like to use? I hate this feature too. I never want to use this. But this is in the same exact set of walls, right? It asks you, do you want to use your iPhone as a

webcam for this video call? Yeah. If you hit yes, it has this whole Bluetooth handshake and it like immediately shows you your live feed from your iPhone, which is a much higher quality camera than the webcam built into your Mac. Generally. That is an option for you, right? Do we think that that that should also be included in this for Windows PCs, for example. Or is it just not a good enough feature that we don't care? I just think that it's not a feature that keeps you in the Apple ecosystem because generally people's webcams are good enough. For some non-zero percent group of people, they're like,

I got to keep using my Mac because I can use my iPhone as a webcam. But that is such a small group of people. The amount of people texting Android to iPhone is like more. than people texting iPhone to iPhone. That feature isn't actively harming the consumer, though, going back to my point. It's just a nice feature. Yeah, it would be nice if they made it for everyone. I'm all for that.

I just don't see the point in forcing them to because it's not actively hurting anyone. Yeah. I think the RCS SMS thing was actively hurting. Not really hurting, but you know what I mean. Like, it's a bad situation. Potentially hurting people. Yeah. This is not that.

It's just a nice feature. Yeah. Yeah. It also, and if I'm like, David's right, I put requires. I don't see anything requires, just that Apple is responding to a request. Apple might just be like, good guy.

Okay, here's a request that scores us. Not good guy, not good guy. Because they would have gone to themselves if they were a good guy. But like Microsoft files a request. Request is out there. We have to respond to it. Maybe this is one thing that's, you know,

still going to take a while, but the team is small enough. It paints us in a good light for a minute. It's like when they started pretending they cared about repairability for a while. Like, good headline. Here we go. Companies will also preemptively add things that are not that big of a lift for them in order to make the EU think that they're not trying to be a gatekeeper.

Like, meta has done this various times. Like, when they were trying to figure out whether or not WhatsApp was a gatekeeper and then WhatsApp like improved its features like the day before the deadline. And they're like, I guess you're not. Like, you would have been. You would have been. And yeah, I think for them, to your point mark as non-zero. amount of people who care about this. And Apple's like, I don't think that we're going to lose Mac users because the only people

that actually need this are the people that actively are using an iPhone and a Windows computer. And I don't think it's going to stop people from buying MacBooks. And Apple probably knows that. So it's possible that in the future the EU could have required this if they determined that it was a primary core feature that needed to have interoperability. They still could. They still could, and it's probably smart of Apple to get ahead of it.

My favorite thing in the Verge comments for this was like a bunch of pissed off EU regulators who have their iPhones, but all their work computers are Windows and government agencies are like, I can't copy. When I'm working at coffee shops, dude, it's like iPhone and like the oldest, shoddiest Lenovo laptop you've ever seen. Oh, business laptop. The biggest bezel, like, it's crazy. Yeah.

It's funny we've argued for this for so long. and I didn't even know it existed before. And I'm just like, I don't care. It's amazing, but it doesn't work all the time. I've been having problems with it working recently, maybe because I'm on the betas. How do you, okay, I have a question for you, Andrew. Because when I use-

Slack it. Slack it to yourself? I just slack myself everything. That's crazy. I used to use telegram for that. I would telegram myself every link that I wanted to open on my laptop. Damn. You know there's apps for this.

It's funny. you guys talk about I don't do like tab syncing in my phone I think I don't know I like I like my things to be separate I don't want them all to be the same thing I like the fresh start but all the time you get like a text with a video link on your phone you want to watch it in your laptop or something yeah oh I also do I use in web Google messages on my oh yeah I just use like web messages as a tab that's oh I have a psychotic answer to your question okay I will press play on the video so it starts on my phone then I will stop it Go to your history.

Oh, I do that. I do that all the time. That's a really good. That's actually probably the best use of the history. I do that for my projector because my projector runs Android TV and there's no way to just like copy paste to my ear's director. Or just too, yeah, into the YouTube app on your TV. Like, oh, play it on my phone. Go to my library history on the TV and then play it for two seconds.

Yeah. Wow. The workarounds that we do. I've had, because I have hacks where like I know I want to download. I have a flight coming up, so I want to download YouTube videos onto my iPad so I can watch them. And I'll find a video on my phone that I would like to watch later on my iPad. So I have to remind myself later to find it again and download it. Why don't you just save to watch later?

I use it constantly. So I will save the video to my like raindrop.combo bookmarks folder. So that before the flight, I can open those bookmarks in the YouTube app and download them all. Why don't YouTube? See watch later. That's what the feature is for. Sometimes it's not all YouTube. videos. Sometimes it's a couple articles I want to read offline.

I'm not just trying to all this stuff. But the YouTube videos I have to download because I can't watch them offline without download. Okay. I can see that. Watch later to me is a playlist I never go to, but I hope YouTube thinks I actually want to watch this later and they'll recommend it to me. It's basically me being like, it's okay

to not watch this right now and then forget about the rest of my life. Videos in your watch later do show up in your homepage. Okay. They do. And it'll say like from watch later. Okay. So I just hope that that happens one day and then I probably click watch later again on it. Take a guess. I have like 600 videos in my watch later.

Take a guess at how many videos are currently in my watch later. How long have you been using your watch later? For a while. I think there's 350 videos in your watch later. 700. There are 716 videos in my watch later. I've got you beat down.

I have 90. I have 910. And I would say about half of these are watched. No, actually about a third. You don't remove it once you watch it. I'm sorry. I know. What?

Okay, wait. Yeah, now that we're far down this rabbit hole, this is a problem that I have had the past couple days. I have like 600, 700 something videos in my watch later. Do I just delete them and start fresh? Yeah. You say keep them. The more useful feature of watch later is that when you add it to watch later,

it will then show up at the top of your YouTube feed the next time you open YouTube. That is a more, yes. That's nice. That makes it more useful to me than a folder of videos that I want to watch. That's nice. Because I rarely, rarely go to YouTube to be like, look at my backlog. No, it's like, feed me, algorithm. I just, I sometimes save videos that I know I don't want to watch right now,

but I have a flight in two days. I'm like, that's when I'll watch that. It's a 30-minute video. I don't have time right now. You just download it. But I'm on my phone and when I find it. And I want to watch it on my iPad. That's the dilemma.

Interesting. You know, there's a feature now on the iPhone, where on the app store, you can hit, like, download to your other computer. You can download the apps. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can download apps to other Apple devices through the app store and through the Play Store. You should just be able to do that with videos too.

That would be a great suggestion. I have a bunch of logged in devices. Let me download, but tell another device to download. Guys, guys, this is called consulting. We don't do this for free. I really want the feature so bad. I'm willing to give it away for free. What if we did it as a social feature where you hit download and it downloads it on your friend's phone?

And then they have it. And then it opens a chat window. Yeah. And then you kind of a conversation. Anyway, I think we do a full episode, like a bonus episode or like a segment on like little dumb workarounds that we do because features don't exist. Oh, yeah. I think that would be fun.

Can we also in real time vibe code all of these features and see if we come out with a working YouTube? The hardest part of this is realizing that you have dumb workaround features because you've been doing them for so long that they're just normal. Yeah, that you didn't even think about. They're like, oh, you know, I do kind of do. I guess I do watch that for two seconds and then go on my projector and go to history. Yeah. Yeah, it is funny.

Well, let's know what your favorite hats are in comments. I'm currently cleaning my watch later. That's funny because, yeah, I opened my watch later. I had one video. Deleted it. I think it was there by accident, honestly. You're also an inbox zero, guys. I could see you do.

Yeah. Inbox zero. Yeah. I'm picturing like the YouTube, I'm assuming somewhere out there, some YouTube employees are hearing us have this discussion. Right now. Yes. Hello.

And you there. Write this down. And I can only imagine they're just like thinking about how every single tiny change they make to the platform, you know, affects hundreds of millions of customers. Billions of people. Every day. And they're here. It's be like, they should overhaul everything like this. What's the worst that could happen?

We know better than them. Yeah. We know better than the millions of other customers, I'm saying. Yeah. Change to the five people. I would consider myself a professional YouTube user. That's it? I think that's true.

I use YouTube a lot. Okay, but also, also, counterpoint. Most people aren't. And companies make features based on what most people do, not what the power users do. Yeah, unfortunately. And most people. Listen to waveform. Listen to wave for them.

I think the download thing. Are born in California. I think most people download videos on their device to watch it later when they don't have an internet connection, right? That's what I do. That's the Netflix thing. Yeah. So I think they should build around that.

They should go, ah, you're going to, the only reason you're hitting download is because you're going to watch this later when you don't have an internet connection. And you have a watch later feature. So you should like sort of synergize. Well, they did. Because there's an auto download feature on YouTube. And it has, it downloads you videos that it thinks you want to watch automatically. Yeah, but it's wrong.

It is wrong. I would say about one fifth of the videos I actually want to watch. But it does, there is a hit rate of some kind. It's not, it's not high. It's not high. Anyway, that's the European Union. Yeah. So, do you actually want to hit this Firefox topic or not?

I'll go really fast. Okay. Okay, Firefox. To the browser that I say I love all the time, yet could never answer a single reason as to why I love it other than Pretty Icon, and I've been using it for a decade. Not Chrome. Yes, not Chrome.

Not Google. They added a new feature. And I feel like this is the first time. I've brought a browser feature to the table because you guys are all massacists when it comes to browsers. Yeah, I have four browsers pinned to my dock right now. You all are crazy. Anyways, they just added in the right-click menu, open and split view, which is where in any link you can right-click. And then instead of like open a new tab, open a new window, there's a split view.

And it will create a tab group of those two. You can click between the split view and that will change the URL. bar so you can change it in that. It has been super helpful in writing the podcast because earlier in the week, I will just open a dock and throw the links to all the headlines we want to talk about. And now, just in the dock, I can right click and open each one, write down all my bullet points. And then it's there. Did you know that every browser has this feature? Not Firefox. Firefox may have had this for years. I've just never seen that specific thing. I was waiting for him to say that same thing. Well, I still need to tell them a couple things.

they need to work out. First of all. It's not perfect. Safari does not have this feature. All right. Well, have I ever recommended Safari, Alice? My two biggest gripes. When there's something open and split view, you then lose the option to open something

and split view again. It should just replace the thing to the right. So like if I'm, I have two windows split and on the left, I have a link and I want to open and split view, it should just replace the one on the right and then add that to the back button I should be able to go between it. And if I want to close the split view tab, the only way to close one window is to close it in the tab. And then for some reason,

it goes to the next tab as the window that's open, or the tab that's open. So like if I'm in Google Docs and have Verge on the right of it and I'm reading and writing, if I want to close the Verge, it should stay on the Google Doc. Yeah. For some reason, it goes to...

So here we go. I'm going to open this minimal phone. Spoiler for what we're talking about next. Open in Split View. I don't care. That's probably DIA and DIA sucks. When I close this now, the YouTube one. Yeah.

Oh, it did stand. I don't know. Before it wasn't hearing it. I don't know. Maybe that one's right. Look. Firefox for life. Firefox.

Dia sucks. If you want a direct line to Andrew. They follow me on Instagram. You can have it. DM me. Just email him. They have emailed me before. I have done calls with them.

Andrew, you don't have to live like this. I also probably won't take calls because I can't tell you anything about this. I like split view, baby. You just told them a bunch of things about it. Oh, yeah, true. You were just wrong about it. Yeah. They fixed it already.

They're already listening to me. They preemptively listen to. Please go to the next thing. All right. Ellis will be excited about this. Oh, I saw this too. So we talked briefly about the minimal phone two last week. If you didn't know what the minimal phone was, we have.

Shut off. Marquez's mic. Yeah, Marquez is like, cut it, cut it. We did a video on the studio channel last. Last year about Minimal Phones, different kind of like phones that get you off of your phone. Ironic. The Minimal Phone 1 was an E-Inc phone, or at least an e-paper display phone. And it was very difficult to use on purpose.

That was the whole point. Minimal is now back with the Minimal Phone 2. We talked about briefly on the podcast last week because they showed a very, very brief teaser in which they just showed the outline of the device. Now, they have a full YouTube. trailer for the minimal phone too. Looks pretty nice. You know, it's got a keyboard.

But instead of the e-ink or e-paper display, it is now OLED. And the interesting thing about it is that the UX actually looks very nice. It has this really specific like deep blacks OLED plus orange plus white aesthetic. It's very minimal, you might say. And yeah, the full announcement and pre-orders are going to go live on August 10th, next Monday on Kickstarter. Ellis, do you have anything to add about this? So much.

I don't know. No, because they didn't really announce that many, like, things about it. Yeah. The U.S. looks pretty cool. I have two thoughts, exactly. Only two. I killed your mic. You can't.

I don't know. There's so much speculation about what it's going to be able to do on Twitter. The thing that I'm kind of most interested in is one of the founders. There's a notification light. They didn't mention this in the teaser. There's like a notification light, old school LED. And they showed a picture of it flashing blue. And one of the founders said it will flash blue specifically when you have an eye message come in.

And it was not explained how. And it was not explained why. And I had my eye message working on the first minimal phone. Fine. Like how? With Marquez, I'm bringing your mic back. With, I forget. which one it was with one of the like I ran a server on my IMac at home so but I didn't need to

sign in my I cloud like anywhere suspicious like it was just it was sure running a server I was running a client on the phone super minimal yeah yeah you could say that I think like the part I remember of being the most annoying for minimal phone one was the hardware software integration like there were so many things with like screen sensitivity and brightness that just like never really I felt like It worked out by the time I stopped using it. And this new one looks so chic and sleek. I meant sleek. It does not look chic.

There's nothing chic about using this thing. But I'm so excited for this thing. I agree with you, David. I think the minimal launcher, the updated minimal launcher looks dope. Looks nice. We're about to hit an interesting golden age of minimal devices. Like clicks communicators coming out fairly soon. Market share about to go.

Point one, baby. Yeah. It's about a hit, how to hit 0.01. It's going to be incredible. It's going to be great. I can't wait for this whole segment to just be slow zooming in on Marquez's face. You are the editor. Okay, look, look, look, look, look.

Okay, I have two thoughts. They might surprise you. They're not going to. No, he's going to say it looks good. My first thought, all right. This looks really cool. I am intrigued. Because the balance between, like, the purpose of a minimal phone,

and not having social media and doom scrolling, but still being able to do stuff, this, just from the teaser, seems to be able to do a lot more stuff and actively avoid the downfalls of the stuff you're avoiding. So I'm curious to try it. But two, this worries me

that they're doing a teaser video, showing the chic new hardware and OLED display and all this price, and they haven't shown a price tag. and I am worried that this is going to be $8,000 phone. Can you really put a price on productivity? I think this might be a $900 phone.

Probably. No. Seven. I bet $700. Look at this. Compared to that one? This is a slow-mo video with these beautiful renders of this amazing OLED display.

It's 49 seconds of amazing hardware. in this with almost no sound design. I don't know why it makes me laugh that the minimal phone has so many buttons on it. I know it's a keyboard, but there's just something about like the first minimal phone was $450. It's actually worth every penny.

It was $500. I'm gonna get $6.50. This one has an, that one had an e-paper display. Yeah, which is an O-Led. No, O-Let's probably cheaper than E-paper. Not a nice O-Led. E-Paper is not produced. did mass enough to be cheap.

You don't need a nice OLED. This is a teaser implying a nice OLED. I would argue you need a nice OLED when you have so little on the screen because the blacks means so much more to look like a nice screen. Yeah, like a bright OLED that actually is like black in the blacks with this UI. With the UI that we're looking at would be better with a nice OLED screen. Like I think they're playing this video, all these closeups of the switches, like they're playing this video implying a very premium experience and a very premium hardware.

and a very premium price hike is usually what comes with that. That's all I'm saying. Damn, rooting this is going to be sick. Launching. Don't. Separate Android launcher on this is going to be so nice. Don't buy an $800 phone. You know, no, how it's a cost yet.

You know what to cost. All right. Let's place your bets. This is $800. $6.49 on Kickstarter, early bird pricing. That doesn't count for anything. I'm going to say it's a Kickstarter. That was like that Zhaomi phone that was like 249 to the first hundred people.

and then it's like $400 after that. It's going to be a, okay. It's a Kickstarter. I joined the wait list, by the way, already earlier today. So we'll see. I had so many more thoughts about the video than I did about the phone from the video. And that might be because I'm on minimal phone Twitter. Does not worry you that there's so much in this video that's promising so many interesting little things?

No, I had the opposite feeling. I was like, God, I really don't want to just be a jerk because it is like a really high quality video. but the whole time I was watching it, I was like, there's no environmental sound, and there's no sound effects for any of the motion. And so it feels like... It's meant... No, guys, that's not what that means.

Duh. No, it feels, it felt to me like they had done, like, a blender animation and then just sort of, like, set music to it. Like, whereas, like... That's what it is. But it would have been a much more impactful, communicative trailer had, like, all of these things made sounds, and it had been in a space.

They might not have physical units made yet. They definitely don't. It's a Kickstarter. Yeah, that's almost more reasons to have sound to make it feel more. FreeSoundeffects.gov. When you said in a space, I thought you meant like a real video. No, like adding reverb and ambience. And like, I was like.

So you're saying you want them to hire you to do something? I'm saying I will be the greatest, look, minimal phone company. I'll give you the buddy, the family, friends and family discount of a lifetime. If you bring the, I think I might be the, either the best sound designer who's also a number one minimal phone fan or the best minimal phone fan who happens to be a sound designer. I feel like I'm at the peak of those two. Watch someone come out of the world. You know Hans Zimmer has a minimal phone, right? No way.

He would have called me by now. Now that you've seen this video and you're interested in the phone, can I get you to commit to a price tag that is too high to be reasonable? Like, what would be too, like, at what point am I like this phone is too expensive? Like, now that you've seen this and it's a minimal phone and it's, it's, it's, you see, you've seen what you've seen. I have one follow-up question, though. Does it assume that a lot of the integration features are fixed in this version? Or is it like, does it have the same bugs that were there when I stopped using minimal phone? They fixed everything.

They fixed everything? Everything. I would pay. Careful. Yeah, I know. Careful, that's careful. Careful, that's. Careful us.

Okay. I would pay, oh, I'm going to make you mad, Marquez. Oh, no. Assuming they fixed everything. Mm-hmm. Right? And like, everything that's in this video just works. The integrations, the software.

I would pay the same price that I paid for my iPhone 17 pro for this. So that's, is not a thousand dollars? That's a bold thing. Because it's clearly less capable than the iPhone. You're serious. That's crazy. Yeah, I would pay a thousand. Because I want all these features in a phone.

You have them. You have all of these features. You have them. You have them. You have them. You just also have more of them. Yeah. No, no, no.

I want a physical keyboard. I want a headphone. Like, I want all of these things. And, um... But I would pay for them. I don't think that's that crazy. I have another question. Yeah.

You mentioned minimal phone Twitter before. How active is minimal phone Twitter? Pretty active. Sounds like it's not working very well. Why? It sounds 45,000 views. Because they're on their computers too much. Because they shouldn't be on Twitter.

There's no Twitter on the Mineral phone. Yeah. Question Ellis, does this run other Android apps? Yeah. So you could run Sunbird, which just relaunched, which allows you to have iPhone. Well, it sounds like they're trying to do it by itself. It sounds like they're doing something. But they haven't said anything.

They just said Bloom, I message notification. Wait, so you're saying that, oh, you're saying that minimal phone is offering iMessage support? They haven't said anything. I believe, I can't remember if it was Andre or the other founder. and I'm so sorry I can't remember the other founder's name. He posted a screenshot of his like dev unit showing off the notification LED because he was like, oh, people always say they want this back, we're going to show it off.

And he posted a Twitter picture of the LED being blue. And he said it will be blue when you have iMessage notifications. He did not explain what that meant. Yeah. I would be willing to bet that they're doing a collaboration with Sunbird. I really hope not. Remember, Sunbird did a collaboration previously. And I know.

but Sunbird was a bad solution to that problem. It was a broken. Yeah, it was not, yeah. No, it's a solution that requires me giving possibly my most sensitive password to a random warehouse somewhere in, you know, like. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, when you said I message, the first thing I thought was companion phone? Do you think there's a chance this is a companion phone?

That changes everything. That literally changes. I mean, I can't imagine them straight up. saying I message without it just being like this is now the companion to your iPhone. It's a companion phone before like when I was books palming, you know, is my main, but like, which has its own benefits because then you can still do Apple stuff. Dude, if also if the if they never get, because the NFC paying never worked in my minimum phone one, two, which produced some really hilarious moments of me trying to get

on the subway in that dumb phones video Adam and I did. If that's not fixed, that gets old really fast. Like the feeling of missing a train because you're just like tapping your phone over and over again. My problem with all of these is that they make amazing secondary devices. And I want one that says good to be a primary device. So like to Ellis's point, I don't think spending a lot of money is crazy for one of these. But I would like it to be able to be my primary device and have everything fixed and work perfectly. That would be nice.

That would be the dream. But as of right now, everything we've tried, it seems to, like, flourish as a secondary device. And nothing seems minimal, like having to carry two phones. Yeah. I think you're... Okay. It's because naming it, this is the same thing with the essential, is when you name it so precisely, you're inviting people to dunk on you for essentially anything. The essential thing.

You could say that at everything. You could be like, someone could be like, I'm trying to do, like, a minimal aesthetic. Check out my black sweater. It could be like, there's like 30,000 pieces of thread in that sweater, bro, like real minimal. You know, it doesn't really work. Yeah, except the sweater is not called the minimal sweater. This is calling itself the minimal. I'm saying essential.

Yeah. I don't know if you were in the like phones, Twitter with essential phone, but it was like, we're the essential phone. Oh, but you don't have a headphone jack. It's just like it got dunked on for any personal opinion that someone had that that phone didn't have that. We'll do a bonus episode. It'll be me and you. some leather armchairs, a nice fireplace. I'll be wearing a black turtle neck and some spectacles.

And it'll be called Ellis and Andrews Adventures Through the Semantics of Minimalism. I will just do like an art history survey. No, but maybe then you realize you are kind of... We'll do a survey through like art and philosophy history. I would watch that. I would arrive at that. What minimalism actually is.

We'll listen to some Philip Glass. I understand. Yeah. It's just Andrews's sleep on the chair with Ellis talk about. and sipping whiskey. The minimal, the description of this video, I mean, they use the word minimal, but I think it's, they're trying to apply something else that's just like no social media, no distractions, because the description is, this is the first official look at everything we've been building

quietly. A premium, compact 5G phone with a full accordie keyboard, an OLED display, and an experience to help you stay focused, brings thoughtful hardware and intentional software in one device built for communication, productivity, and getting things done. It's more than a minimal thing. It also, you missed, it says experience designed to help you stay focused without giving up the tools you need. Yeah, pretty critically. So like, Slack.

But if it's just running Android, can't I install it anyway? Hell yeah, brother. Or is it not running Android? I think it's probably running Android. It's definitely going to be running Android. So there's one, I'm not going to call it a review. One YouTuber got a prototype dev device and was allowed to play with it. He was not allowed to show it on camera.

But he did. No, no, no, no, no. He did show it on camera. There was shots on camera. And it has the Android lock screen, like where you do the... Yeah. But I wouldn't be surprised if the minimal launcher, the launcher that it comes with, integrates with the hardware.

Everything is just Android at the end of the day, which is just Linux at the end of the day. On my minimal phone one, I installed a different launcher. I don't remember which one I had, but I was not using minimal launcher on them. on my first one. Do you want me to keep talking about minimal phone? No, I remember when we said that this is going to be a quick segment. Yeah, let's wait until we have more info. This whole episode is quick segments and then us yapping.

Yeah, the European Union section was long. Especially I want to keep talking about the minimal phone. I do unfortunately today have maximal trivia to ask you guys. Oh, don't look so disappointed. That was fine. Maximal. This is just how I look. No, that resting disappointment face.

I liked it. Today's first trivia question is inspired by my best friend, Ian, who was visiting me over the weekend, and you guys brought up a Ford truck called the Fathom, which we all know can mean, like, to conceive or to conceive of something far off. However, Fathom has a second definition. It's a unit of distance, the nautical. Wait, is it Fathom or Fathven? Fathom. It was just spelled wrong in the dock. Oh, okay, got, yeah.

Wait, how is it actually spelled? No, it just said N in the dock instead of M. Oh, okay, okay, we're good. Yeah. Trivia question stands. Yep. And the reason this is part of my best friend, Ian, is because there was a few years where as a joke,

he memorized, you guys ever heard of a gill? It's like another old-timey... But the fish thing? No, there's an old-timey unit of measurement called a gill. It's a 32nd of a gallon that we don't use anymore. And my best friend, Ian, memorized that and would only give units of volume in gills for, like, years. It drove everyone in saying,

It sounds very imperial to me. And so, because I know none of you know what a fathom is as a unit of measurement, I'm here to ask you, of these old-timey units of nautical measurement, which one is the farthest? A, the fathom, B, the league, C, the shackle, or D, the twas. I have almost no. No idea. I have only one tiny little bit of information about one of them.

Which is league. Which is the book called 40,000 leagues under the sea. 20,000 leagues under the sea. So a league can't be that big. That's what I was. Literally my same mindset. I was like, if it's 20,000, I don't think the Earth's core could go that far. It's got to be yards, right? A league is probably a yard.

Yeah. This is not a science podcast. Yeah. All right. Goal, think about it. We'll probably learn something at the end. Shout out Ian. Answers at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

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Shopify.com slash waveform. All right, welcome back. We got some more news for you. This week, CMF released brand new headphones, or at least they announced them. They're called the CMF Clip Pro. It's their first open headphones. This is a growing category of headphones.

Bowes made some last year that were fairly popular. It's been a ton in the last, like, two, three years. There's been a ton. There's been a ton. So they're earbuds that basically clip onto the side of your ear and they're open so they don't go into your ear canal. They just shoot sound into your ear. This is for people that want to be able to just ambient play music and, you know, watch videos on their phones without bothering other people, but also hear other people talk to them. So there's not something like blocking their ear canal. Good for commuting. Good for commuting. If you're biking or like the street around you, stuff like that.

Yeah. So you don't get hit by a car. Transparency. So CMF is a, announcing their new line of it called the CMF Clip Pro. They put out some teasers for it on Twitter. They sure did. They sure did. Everyone's talking about the headphones, right? Everyone's not talking about the headphones. So they put out these teasers on Twitter.

They are, you know, teaser photos. You know, the classic nothing CMF sort of like British minimalism style that they've always kind of done with the like weird haircuts and like bright colored. blank canvas blank canvases and stuff like that but you'll notice in some of these photos that there's a little watermark in the bottom corner that says contains AI generated imagery now sure does wait a minute it says way more than that sorry have you read the whole thing it says it tends AI generated imagery any resemblance to a real person is purely coincidental yes coincidental yeah okay so there's context here there's context it it's very hard to see and find and read this

They're clearly trying to hide it. My first question was, if they're trying to hide this so hard, why would they even include it? Turns out that just a few days ago, the European Union passed an AI Act, which requires AI providers to embed digital watermarks or technical markers into generated files to make automated detection possible. So now they have to put this labeling in there. This is more than just like a digital footprint. Sorry, companies must visibly mark synthetic or altered images, audio, and videos so that users know when the media is artificial. That's the one of them. That users know immediately that the media is.

Immediately is what it says, which is clearly not immediately. I don't think that the EU would like this personally. But yeah, so people are freaking out because it says contains AI generated people, basically. And there's a couple ads. There's a video of a girl that's like wearing them and dancing. and at the beginning of the video it says like this is not a real person and it's generated

it's an AI generated person wearing them so that's weird and bad and I don't know I mean yeah this also says it contains AI generated imagery any resemblance to a real person is purely coincident which means this is not a real these are not real people which is just we clearly

don't love this already because of that like they're not using real models and that's kind of but what's fun it's funny about this like ad campaign is they just messed up in so many ways another way that they have messed up um they published this photo of a guy that's like floating with the CMF clip pro in his ear but you should click the link yeah um you click this link look at the photos right so he's floating with it in his ear but if you zoom in on the photo you can see that this is like it's

every amazon like white labeled earphone product you've ever seen where it's just like It's just literally they cut out the background and they just slapped it on top of a pre-existing photo. It's really bad. They quickly took down that one. But people are getting very angry at them for using AI people, I think fairly rightly so in this circumstance. I also think this law went into effect literally like two days ago. So we're going to start seeing this happen with a lot of companies. This is so straight.

Yeah. The thing that hits is how they're putting it as light gray text on a lighter gray background. So it's clearly they're trying to make it basically not part of the image, which I get that it's an ad and you don't want it to be distracting, but it does come across as hiding it. And then, yeah, the videos, you kind of just have to assume that they're thinking people who buy these don't care about that and are fine with them, yeah, just not using real models or photography.

My issue with this is like, one, they're hiding it. I don't get what they mean by any resemblance to people as purely coincidental. I think what they are saying is that these are not real models. These are AI generated people. And if it happens to look like, yeah, if it gets alleged that we are trying to like use a real person's likeness in this, it's purely coincidental. Oh, they're saying like, when they say people, they mean like specific person. Correct. You think you're saying.

Okay. Because the prompt clearly had to have written person. I mean, the other, the video is like a girl waking up, a guy climbing, which you can tell us AI when he falls because it's so bad. A guy walking around and like chilling on the couch. Like, yeah. The other thing is, is this video, other than probably the rig on L cap, which is him climbing, is like, this is not a crazy thing to have to shoot. No. And you're a, I know CMF is a budget company, but they're a big enough company to be able to shoot their own commercial.

Yeah. I have what may be considered a nuance take about this. I'm not sure. But. Light them up, boys. No, no, no, no, no, David, no. That's a long clip. Do you usually just Adam laughing?

We're usually laughing over that. Oh, okay. So, okay. It is annoying and ironic that everyone in the industry is telling companies you have to use AI. You have to adopt this for your stock to go up, right? Like the only way for people to get funding, for their stock to go up is for them to say, we are adopting AI. We're using this in more places.

At the same time, now they have to disclose it so people hate them for it. So you kind of put in between this rock and this hard place, I think they should just go ahead and use real people anyway for many many many many reasons super different i think to use a i is like for like this is like competitive advantage but also like as tools or you need to have like a i features on things or you need to be using it to yeah study different whatever not to like make the advertising and and like i agree destroy the personal i don't want marketing is a big part of companies budgets and if they can save a dime by using AI people they will want 100% do so and tell their shareholders, oh, look, we used AI to save 3%.

Like, that is the same thing. That is the same thing. True. And it makes you look good. And it makes you look like shit. It's not good marketing. So they're stuck in the rock and a hard place. That's to market. Figure it out.

Yeah. You hire real people. It is weird. We talked before about how companies that don't use AI and use real people will point it out and it's sort of become like a luxury thing. Like Porsche uses real animators. You know what I mean? We had to do that for the shrinking down video for the three nanometers.

video where we were like, hey, I'm shrinking down to the size of this single transistor. I know that you're going to think that this is AI watching this. So I just want to make it clear. A lot of human hours went into making this. And it came across as like both a disclaimer and like a statement of like almost pride. Like, hey, just so you know. Yeah. A lot of hard work here.

Yeah. And I know that nothing saved a lot of money by using AI and not using, you know, full shoots and stuff. However, they also hired Charlie XX as they're like a brand campaign person. Damn. They're throwing a lot of money at another thing. So. Yeah, marketing also often feels like optional extra spend. Like nobody enjoys marketing in general.

We're getting marketed to. It's just a fact of life and we're like, all right, companies are going to market to us. So when they also cheap out on marketing to us and kind of hide that it's AI and do all these other things, it doesn't feel good. It feels actually slightly worse than regular marketing. Yeah. So maybe they could actually take advantage of this by getting a little positive. once in a while and using real models and real people. Totally.

I think it's kind of crazy actually now that this EU law is in place. This is going to feel like the new via Twitter for iPhone. Because every company that has AI in their marketing now has to legally, that markets in the EU, has to legally label it clearly and immediately. Which means we're going to see a lot of public backlash from a lot of companies. Well, and the thing that's weird about there is how much of it helped by AI. Like if I were scrolling on CMF thing here and if the, you know, some of the close up product,

you know, renders use some AI to like make them move around. To me, that's a little different than full-blown creating new people. And that's because it wasn't a human doing it before, right? Like if you're doing the models or whatever. But it feels like, yeah. Right. Like the products, I wasn't going to see a real product anyway. Like when you watch, spoiler alert, when you watch those beautiful AI video or beautiful Apple videos of like products that are not out yet that's a 3D render most of the time with some practical effects there's a lot of work that goes into making those and to substitute with AI would probably feel bad but not as bad as these are not real humans right videos that feels slightly worse I wonder if they had to use that full

label because the mandatory labeling through the EU says companies must visibly mark synthetic or altered images so if you use photos Photoshop and you use generative fill. This is the same problem that we had at the very beginning of Instagram, like trying to label. And it said made with AI, even if you just did like generative fill on a some dust on the photo. You know what I mean? So do you have to label AI even if you just use like generative fill in a photo? Like that's, yeah, the line is in a different place.

We need to know where that line is. You should have to label it if you are creating new objects or people. I agree with that. I think adjusting eddial fuzzy. I would specifically say content aware, Phil, is that gray area where it's like, am I just trying to take the sign out of like the background of this? Did it make a new tree when I did that? Is this creating a new object now? I would say you're creating a new object, sure.

But if you're adjusting fixing, that's not creating new things. That's removing things. Sometimes it is. Well, if it creates new things to remove a thing. Yeah. That's the gray area to me. thing. Damn, we're getting too deep.

It is really, it is really a gray area, I think. It's really great. Like, Content Aware of Phil, if you're getting rid of the dust on a camera lens, you're technically creating new glass underneath it. I think we all accept that that's not creating a new thing. But when you move the line, you're like, oh, I got rid of, like, a rock in the background,

and it put extra grass back there. Okay, that's a little bit further. Oh, I used AI to get rid of a flag that was in the background of the photo. We don't want to have a flag there, but then it created a whole new tree in the background. Yes. Okay, it's still fine.

It's just a tree. And then you just keep pushing the line further and further. And it's all gray. It's all gray. Companies want to push the lines to all of us on different things. Like marketing with AI is going to turn into something where you're going to have to listen to your audience. And they're going to have to determine collectively what the line is. And you're going to have to play that game.

And CMF just played that game and found out. And they crossed the line, which is 100% of everything. For creating, like, fake people, that's way over the line, obviously. But I definitely foresee a lot of asteris is about to happen where a lot of companies literally do whatever the EU says is barely over the line. Like you said, Adam, replacing a rock with some grass, right? And then they have to mandatorily add the little marker. And then people are going to think that the whole thing is generated or something like that. Well, is this just going to desensitize everyone to that asterisk?

Probably. Because every marketing thing will have it now. That's a possible future. Probably. And we're in the like forefront of it, so only a few brands are doing it and getting it seen. And so it feels like it's rare, but it may desensitize us. And it'll eventually take it away once it's normalized. I just imagine that because this rule is now in effect in the EU, the next couple months are going to be kind of crazy on social media platforms.

Because we're going to see these tags all over a ton of marketing and people are going to be very angry. And it's going to hit very, it's going to hit slightly differently with each company. Yeah. Like imagine Google doing it. You're like, yeah, I could see that. Yeah. And then imagine, like, Apple doing it, you're like, hmm, that's weird. Yeah.

Like, there's so many different. It's going to hit different every time. If I use magic eraser and photos in the EU and then I share that image, will it have this watermark? Well, it should. Yeah. Because Google, remember Google's doing their watermarking? I don't know if it's compatible. That's a hidden watermark.

Right. Oh, sorry, not a watermark. It's like, it's buried in the file. But, Adam, it's companies must. Oh, yeah. You're not making. you're not a company. Companies are people.

Right. You know what? There's one thing to learn from this episode is companies are not people. Companies are not people in the EU though. But they are in the United States

and we don't require the rule. Okay, speaking of a company that's trying to pretend like it's a person, Open AI. We talked briefly last week about this lawsuit, this crazy lawsuit that's happening where Apple is suing OpenAI

for alleged trade secret stealing and all these like LMAO. texts that they have sent they'd be like, ha ha, I still have access to the secret information inside of Apple, even though I now work at OpenAAI. So now OpenAI published this blog post, which is kind of nuts.

They're bringing it to the court of public opinion. The blog post is called Apple is getting this wrong. It's not a super long blog post. It's basically just talking about the lawsuit and how they think that Apple is wrong for bringing it. But they do share a bunch of

I message conversations and a bunch of email history to show that both Apple says that it contacted OpenAI in February and got no response, but now admits that its lawyer contacted the wrong person and that the person at the company confused two last names. So they emailed the wrong person because they had similar last names. The Apple claims it had a conversation with Open AIs General Counsel, but now Apple admits that that never happened. That Apple's lawyer says that it told Open AI it was resolving any issues, then went silent for five months until they randomly got hit with the lawsuit.

This is all alleged by OpenAI. We are not saying any of this is true. Yeah, so they published the I messages and the emails and this is really weird. I don't think that usually companies come out and make blog posts about active litigation. In fact, the number one thing you're supposed to not do

is come out and just make a bunch of blog posts about active litigation. So it's very irregular that this is happening. It makes them seem very confident. They seem very confident. Can I read to you my favorite message or part of this very, very long? I was like, they only alleged the like couple quick things. This thread is.

There's a lot of redacted. There's a lot of stuff. But yeah, my favorite part is redacted Apple information will redacted Apple information prototype build, but too late for redacted Apple information with the reply. Awesome. I was thinking redacted Apple information for redacted Apple information and redacted Apple information for redacted Apple information. But since redacted Apple information was pushed back,

then it should get redacted afterable information. Also, I think we are aligned. Smiley face. Same, bro. How this is supposed to. You know what's crazy about this? This is not unheard of for them to be publishing, or not unheard of,

but like you can publish these transcripts, right? We normally see that from court cases. And it'll just be texts. And that says it's like redacted Apple employee number one, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Someone had to Photoshop into the, form of iMessage to make it look like iMessage for the people reading it to be no no adam they had chadjibt

Photoshop okay yeah also where's the indicator that says uh that says uh that says a i generated image i think it's a Photoshop job it does like to look like a screenshot even though it's one really really long one heavily edited and to make it blue bubbles even though it's clearly an iPhone Android interaction because of the reaction it goes oh yeah yeah like liked apple redacted information They made it blue. Yeah, so they didn't even do it right. They tried to make it look like an I-Message conversation, and they didn't even do it right. They did get the text correct.

Actually, now that I'm looking at it, this isn't even as... It's not the right font. No, but it's, I can select the text, which means this isn't even a photo. No, these aren't screenshots. That's what I'm saying. They rebuilt this. They built this inside the web page. Oh, inside of chat, JBT.

That's weird. All right, well... This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I'm not a lawyer. I would not recommend doing this. This isn't legal advice, but like, I wouldn't do this. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I personally would not do this. New sound by just dropped.

I do love how it's like how the messages are liked this response. Like all of the reactions are text messages. Yeah. Crazy that one of these people is using the Android phone when they're all Apple employees. Well, no, the thing is, is one isn't an Apple employee anymore, right? It's an Open AI. employee. But it doesn't seem often that an open-A employee would be spend 24 years at Apple.

And then as soon as they get to opening I, I switch to an Android phone. Anyway, all right. Quick little hit. Just wanted to mention Fitbit data can now sync to Apple Health. Let's clap. Yes. Yes. We've waited so long.

I don't use. I don't know. I was told to clap. I clap. All right. I'm hyped about this. because I'm still using the Fitbit air. I'm still enjoying it and an iPhone.

And previously you had to use a bridge app to bridge your Fitbit Health, Google Health information over to Apple Health. Now it's native. So that's good because I don't have my iPhone in my pocket all the time. So I don't always have my step information or my HRA variability or stuff like that.

And I don't like wearing an Apple Watch. So now my Fitbit can just give all this information to my Apple Health and I can still use Apple Health. I like Google Health. I actually like it quite a bit, even on iOS. And I've kind of come around to the dumb Gemini previews. Can I ask, what do you like about Apple Health?

What do I like about Apple Health? Because I found that once I couldn't use Apple Health, I didn't miss it at all. One thing that's useful about Apple Health is that... You can copy and paste universally. One thing that's useful about Apple Health is that a lot of apps use Apple Health as a data source. Source? Yes. That means it's getting it from your...

phone or from whatever's dumping into Apple Health. Like other apps that I use will pull information from Apple Health. Like what? Like a Macrofactor. If I use a Garmin and I go on a run, it all saves to Apple Health. And then other things can pull that information like Strava from Apple Health. Yeah, it's sort of a repository. So like I have a GE Smart Scale.

The GE Smart Scale syncs to Apple Health. And then my macro factor pulls my weight from Apple Health. Got it. So this is kind of the copy and paste thing. This is an ecosystem thing still. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like Apple Health is... I think. I don't know. Apple Health is like the heart of my health data. It's your data collecting hub. Yeah. And then all the other apps are different organs that pull from it. Yeah.

Yeah. That's fair enough. Yeah. I guess I don't have anything pulling from Apple Health, so I wasn't really missing anything. Yeah. I have like three apps that pull from Apple. I was going to say this has already been super long, but I would love to hear your your thoughts on not having an Apple Watch anymore.

Because you've been like the Apple Watch guy for years since I started here. Yeah, true. And now the past couple weeks you just have not had an Apple Watch. I've had, I, there was a lot of thought about like, what do I use an Apple Watch for? What will I miss if I don't have it anymore? And it was really kind of a short list of things that I use Apple Watch for. It's telling the time, I do still miss that. But then there's the notifications on the wrist.

I don't miss that. There's the closing the rings every day, which, it's like a fun thing to track but it's not the most precise and I honestly stopped missing that and then it's all the all the other measurements and data collection and information that gets aggregated that I can then learn from health-wise which is literally replaced with the other wearable which is in this case a whoop we'll talk about the other one I'm wearing in a second so I yeah there's like smaller all small all other small things do you miss group challenges We, they never, yeah

I gave up on them trying to add group challenges I figured they'll never do it. Why didn't they do that? Yeah. It's crazy. I'll say, and this kind of ruins my whole shtick, since wearing a watch, I don't miss notifications on my watch that much. I'll still scream from the top of them.

It still should be a thing that they offer because all of the functionality is there. But yeah, I don't miss notifications that much. Yeah. Your watch usually, I'm also, just confused because it's always on your right hand and now your arms are on bands on your left hand and I'm used to watching your watch just blow up the entire podcast. It would light up. I definitely got you very used to it just like constantly buzzing and lighting up and that's part of why you hate notifications so much because just everything it's 24-7. Yeah. So get phantom buzzes like does your ring rest just buzz randomly? At first I did but not anymore. Yeah, there was actually a solid week and a half and I almost would make fun of people for that. I'd be like what do you mean phantom buzzes? And then I would feel one and check it. I'd be like, oh my. It is real.

So I'm glad I got over that. But yeah. But okay, speaking of other wearables, so, David, you're wearing the Fitbit. Yeah, I'm wearing the Fitbit. I've been wearing the Whoop. Andrew, which, what was on your wrist a second ago? What was that thing? What is that?

I haven't seen that before. The Garmin Circa. Oh. It's here. So you're, how many days in? 24 hours. 24 hours in. Mm-hmm.

Any thoughts? I have my extremely brief impressions because there's only 24 hours and I haven't even done a workout with it. But I will try and quickly go through this because this is a long episode. Okay. Okay. So it's big. It is. It's thick.

It's, I want to see it next to your whoop because now it actually doesn't look that big compared to the whoop. It's just, I thought the whoop was a little slimmer profile. Dimensionally, it's a little bit taller than the whoop off the wrist. I don't have a big wrist, but I'm using the large, extra large band, and it fits fine. But like this thing is wide. Like if you look at it directly at my wrist, I look like Mega Man pointing my... Like, it's hanging off almost the sides of my wrists. Yeah.

Which I think is too big. I don't love this. I immediately want the Fitbit air after this if I want to keep it. So I don't love that. Especially because it's a screenless tracker. This is supposed to feel like something that just melts in. My Casio watch right now is a smaller. slimmer profile than my activity tracker.

Yeah. So the auto sleep tracking, now this has only been one day, bang on. Like perfect. Day one. Day one. That's awesome. What I would say, so I set my sleep schedule like you do in the Garmin app. I put 1030 to 630.

I laid down in my bed around like 10.20. And I remember scrolling on my phone for a while and thinking to myself, I need to see how well this works. 1043, I put my phone down. says I went to bed at 1045. At 1145, Owen woke up. So I got up, helped for a minute, went to the bathroom, went back to sleep. It nailed a six-minute wake time at 1145.

You went to sleep that fast? I mean, six minutes, I would just woke up, put his binkie back in, went to the bathroom, went back to sleep. I was pretty tired. Then my alarm woke me up at 6.30. I was like, wow, that's really good. That's all automatic because, like, it could have just said, oh, you're laying down and you set your sleep time 1030, therefore you are sleeping. But it didn't actually clock it till presumably right when I fell asleep.

It also recorded a nap that I took when I fell asleep on the couch watching a movie with Lane right after dinner last night for like 15 minutes. And it is in my daily report that there was a rest time and counted it towards my body battery. So spot on with that. Now, the other thing to sleeping comes with the button, which is to stop the alarm that's going off on your wrist. So it's 630, buzz, buzz, buzz.

I press it. I'm hanging out. I'm like pretty lazy, not getting out of bed. 10 minutes later. Buzz, buzz, buzz. I thought I stopped this. Oh, I must have snoozed it, but in a panic, just press it again. Now I'm awake and I'm like, this thing's going to go off again.

I need to figure out how to do it. The app is not very good. Every Garmin user knows their app is information dense, but pretty poorly laid out when you want to find things. So I actually Googled how to turn it off, which is kind of, apart. So you have to hold it, apparently. So 10 minutes later, it's like $6.50, I hold it. And I turn off my alarm. Cool, we're good. Halfway through my commute this morning with my music playing on the car, my wrist starts beeping and just over the, my speakers just goes, 60 minutes. And I'm like, what? And apparently I had started an activity. And that was, Garmin does like, if you have it

turned on, which I guess by default it does. After an hour, it alerts to you that you've been working out for an hour. So it had connected to my Bluetooth speakers through my phone to tell me that it was, I guess in your headphones it would tell you. And it told me that it was 60 minutes. So I'd been running a 60 minute activity because I thought I had turned the alarm off. All you need to do on that is the little light on the side should either blink or stay a color when an activity is active. I think that's so simple and so easy. If you want to torch me on the notification thing, I think just an active activity should be. Anyways, last night, I was. I was in my backyard for like 20 minutes just putting on my disc golf basket and it auto added that as an activity.

I thought that was pretty cool. It wasn't an intense one. Yeah, very much. But it did put it in there. I have my default to just do activity. So it doesn't try and assume what it is and I can just edit it because I mostly only care about heart rate and time. So that was pretty good.

However, DC Rainmaker did a blog, a really, really good blog comparing everything. Yeah. And he found that the Circa, one of its biggest issues was, not auto-detecting during warm-ups when Fitbit Air and or Whoop was doing it correctly. And because the Circa to save battery life is tracking heart rate at a much less frequent time outside of an active activity, he can't then go and adjust the times because there's not enough information there. So with the Fitbit Air or the Whoop, if it did happen to miss 10 minutes or, you know,

sometimes if you have a cool-down period in between and all stuff, he can just adjust. all of those things and gather all the information that it missed, where this just doesn't have heart rate data. Reminds me that a pixel watch. Yeah. Yeah. Pixel watch would sample like every second or something. I think that's, I think this is doing, I want to say every minute or something.

It's very infrequent in comparison to when it is tracking. So in my eyes, you know, 24 hours with reading a lot of different stuff, the size of this. The band is awesome. the colors are great. I think it's really comfortable. I just think it's too big. This feels to me like Garmin was creating this to be a whoop competitor, not knowing Google, and then the Fitbit Air came out first.

Because if this comes out without the Fitbit Air, it looks so much better. That's a great point. When the Fitbit Air is out, even though it has all their software issues and bad, whatever. It's gotten better. I've heard it's gotten better. I mean, DC Rainmaker has said even a lot of the Garmin things in the couple of week it's been out they've been taking feedback and trying to fix some things it seems like him and

does fit fit bit are like i meant the fibbit air's gotten best yeah yeah but so is the garment as well um but like this to me especially being twice the price feel like the fitbit air has better tracking in terms of the heart rate stuff in that it's lighter it's smaller it's less of a nuisance it's just like overall the better product and it's half the price yeah so this feels like a really bad buy that's out. I do like that they're integrating the button into this. I think they could do some stuff with the lights. I think if Garmin could somehow

put standalone GPS in this, it would feel like the Garmin product in this new screenless fitness wearable category. Yeah, for sure. And I think this is a wait for Gen 2 and hope they improve. No GPS was kind of a shocker to me on this product. Yes. Especially since it's Garmin. Yeah. I, to me,

I don't know how, I don't know how difficult it would have been to add GPS and still get good battery life? Can I see your woo-per fast-way? Probably very, very, very. To me, this, this to me feels like the slightly less elegant version of the

Fitbit Air. Like, I like that it has a button, that's nice. But, like, the way the bands attach and, like, having to remove them and retouch them, I like the band, but I don't know that I would do it like this. It is a little thicker, a little taller, a little bit, the app is a little bit worse.

Like, the data is a little bit worse. It's just, like, Like you said, Andrew, slightly less elegant version of the Fitbit Air. But I kind of do wish the Fitbit Air had a button. Oh, I wish the Fitbit Air had a button. I think the button is a good thing. I'll say this whoop,

it's just as tall as the whoop, which I thought the, but the whoop is less wide. Therefore, it feels like it's sitting on top of your wrist, not kind of tether or bending over your wrist. And I do think that feels better. I still don't like the whoop mechanism, but. Funny that you guys are still arguing over those devices

when this thing is so. Try this next to your... next to it. Yeah. I still think we are forgetting the most important part, which is that this does not have a subscription. Well, I think that's like part of the,

I think this, if Woop is its only competitor at $200 no subscription with all this, it looks like an incredible. Which is why the Fitbit Air is incredible. Yes. The problem is is the Fitbit Air beat them to the punch at a better price point.

Also not a subscription. I mean, it has a subscription. You really don't need it. No, no, the garment has a subscription too. Yeah, but it's for like nutrition stuff. It's not like for actual any other data. Yeah. Same thing as the Google one.

That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That's why comparing to all of its subscriptions are similar to the Google subscriptions. Therefore, the Fippit Air just beats it to everything. The Garmin subscription is the garment subscription for all of their products. It's not just for this one device. Like, if you have a watch, you can get the same subscription. Are you supposed to wear this to sleep?

Yes, I wore it to sit. Yeah, I feel like the thickness of this would be very uncomfortable. It didn't bother me sleeping. I just, like, I don't know. The fact that it just should be like a brief. It feels like it should be way smaller. It's a really big puck compared to the Fitbit Air. Yeah, I think the Fitbit Air nailed the form factor.

Yeah, really. So it's, yeah, it's like not even close. Yeah. Fitbit really, the Fitbit needs to make material that doesn't look like ass after like a few weeks, though. Yeah, I want to combine all three of these. I want the form factor of the Fitbit Air with the band of the, of the garment, but with the connection method of the Fitbit Air.

So I wish I could just do the Velcroft. thing. Yeah. But this material, this band is nice. This band is nice. And the colors are. And then give me the battery life of the whoop.

Give me the data collection of the whoop, but the UI of the Fitbit. Yeah. Like mixing them all together. Which is funny because I think just Fitbit needs to work on their UI because the data collection is all the same. It's just how you throw it out and be, are you body battery? Are you strain? Are you, Google's, it's just like a score, right?

Yeah. Yeah. They all have a slightly different score. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I will say, so you're supposed to be able to wash these bands, and I have. I've washed it twice, and it has also taken out the blue color. Like the blue has washed out of the band.

And I know that they never said that these bands were particularly lux, but it's pretty sad that I washed it like twice by hand by just scrubbing it a little bit, and the blue pigment has, like, come out, you know? Damn. I'm really waiting for some much nicer bands to hit the market. which they will. They will indeed. Patience.

Well, before we get off of the health tracker thing and take it to break, I just wanted to point out there's a new Casio Ring watch. Ring watch. Yeah. So Alex has the Cassio Ring watch. This is so funny because I saw this. Or watch ring, I guess. It's a watch ring. That's the confusing part is I saw this on a Verge headline, I think, but didn't read that.

It was a ring. And I was like, this is such a weird, chunky watch. You watch people. It's a watch. It's a ring people. It's a ring that is a watch. It's like a Cassio watch that you're wearing your finger. Is it a joke right?

No, they sell it. I wish it was. And it's a real. It's amazing. I think it's so cute. No, hey, hey, hey, it's cute. It's adorable. Am I being prank right now?

Alex has one. You can check it out later. But they just announced that they're now making one. It's China only right now, which is really sad. But they're now making one that is a full-on, like, health tracker device. So it's like an aura ring competitor, but it's a watch that you wear in your finger. This is not a Joe. Are you serious?

None of this is fake. Why don't they just make a smart watch? Like if any company could just put a smartwatch tracker under like a G-shock with, would make so much sense. This is very, it is crazy to me that Cassio has not made a smart watch that just looks like a regular Casio. Yeah. Because a bunch of companies are making third-party attachments for it that allow it to be a smart watch. I can't believe this is real. Look how sweet it looks.

It's so adorable. In the pictures, they have, like, their hands all spread out like this, so you can tell it's not. And there's, like, it's many versions of their watches, but you wearing them on your fingers. Cassio owns G-shock, which makes smart watches. I don't know if I can be anymore. Oh, G-Shack does have a smart watch? I didn't even know that. Just to be perfectly clear for audio listeners, picture a G-shock watch.

Yeah. Around one of your fingers. That's literally what it is. Well, and scaled correctly. Not just G-shocks, but, like, all the Cassio watches, they basically made. ring versions of. Am I... Am I gonna get roasted for this?

This is like the dumbest thing I've ever seen? No, I also hate this. This is insane. When it came out, I was like, this is stupid. But you guys reach their own. You guys hate Wimsy. You're gonna hurt your fingers. Why, it's just a ring.

Yeah, but you remember how the ORA ring was like, people thought it was really chunky and they finally made a thinner, smaller one. They were like, all right, I'll finally wear a ring. This is the opposite direction. Yeah, but you can't tell time on an ORA ring. Well, then don't get a ring. You don't need to wear a watch

You don't even wear a watch on your wrist If you can just wear it on your finger This is Are people, and this is one of the pictures Are people doing this? Are they wearing the watch And the ring at the same time? Is this not ridiculous?

Cassio Maxey. Am I going insane? That's amazing. I love that. This is crazy. It's amazing. What time is it? Hold on, let me just.

Yep, it's still 1045. You can't wear gloves with this on. I can't wear gloves with any ring on. You can't handshake any long. No, your glove just has a little hole in it. You can't make a fist anymore. With any ring. The battery life is one day.

The original G-Shog DW-5600 is only $100.00. Just get that. I bet the battery life for this is like 20 years. This is the tiniest thing I've ever seen. Yeah, but a regular Casio watch lasts 10 years and it uses a coin battery. If I weren't married, I would propose to clarify with this. Do you think you could fit a coin battery in this? It's probably the size of a coin, of a coin battery.

It's probably about the same size. I'm not sure. If I ever meet anyone wearing one of these, Alex has one. I'm imagining Marquez walking up to a guy on the bus who is holding their light phone flip with their Casio ring on the holding the flip and Marquez just launches himself out of dripping.

Just the opposite. Just dripping sweat to me. You know, to each their own. Alex says he does not have one. Oh, get on in here. I like the lore of Alex. You literally had one last week. What are you talking about?

You've never worn this. I don't have a ring watch. Watch, right? Okay, good. No, he has the cigarette ring. Are you being so for real right now? I'm being so far. I've talked about that I think they're cool, but no, I never bought it.

I saw you wear it last week. What are you talking? Is this a dream? Did you hallucinate me wearing a ringwatch? I remember walking up to you and I was like, you have one of the cast you ringwaters? You're like, yeah, I got it. No. Was it rich?

I said I have a G-shock. Nah. You should have been beans? Dream beans made it up. Yeah. You know, I heard my name. Alex, I like that. There's a certain philosophical hilarity to if you make a ring, excuse me, if you make a watch shape like a ring, it becomes a combination of two things.

It's a ring watch. But if you make a ring in the shape and size of a watch, it becomes a bracelet. It just sort of trains its properties. And I say that because I want to stop talking about this. Yeah, we got to be done. This is like a long episode. It was a long episode. All right.

Trivia, dude. I'm doing a hall of shame at the end of the year of my least favorite product. We are working on waveform awards for the end of the year. So that might, yeah. A little teaser for December. Okay. We spoke about BMW earlier, way earlier, like three hours ago. But which automobile manufacturer operated the car sharing service reach now back in 2016?

I don't know. You don't know? Take a guess. Cassio. I'll have to think on that. We'll find out. Answers at the end. Be right back one more time.

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. All right, welcome back. Going to go fast. Skip ahead 35 minutes to get to the end of this. Just kidding, we only have 20 minutes left on the card. Okay. I just want to say, Kikron, the keyboard company, kind of cooking lately.

They, for whatever reason, their Twitter game, they just tweet in every day. And they're releasing stuff and they're showing off prototypes of things. and something about it just looks like Kikron's on the up and up. They just released a new really lightweight gaming mouse with a magnetic swappable battery, which is like something I've seen in a couple random Chinese mouse companies, but like this is really cool. Is this the full mouse?

No, David's looking at a prototype render that they're working on. A lot of mice enthusiasts have built things like this where it's a fingertip grip only mouse, which is essentially only the front half of the mouse. It is like 30 grams, or supposed to be 30 grams. That has the magnetic, swappable battery as well. They're posting that, and they're posting all these things about, like,

what are some things we should change? They have something they just released called the NAEP Pro, which is this really sick mini-wireless trackball device. Oh, yeah. That looks cool. That even Ellis came to me and was like, dude, did you see this thing Kikron's doing? It has six customizable buttons.

It fits kind of right at the bottom of your keyboard. were by the space bar to now be a trackball with all these different buttons. I think it's sweet. Sweet concept, terrible name. It is a weird name. Nape is a weird name. Do you know what your nape is? It's like the back of your neck.

It is the back of your neck. There's those under nose for some reason. Yeah, true. Back of their neck. Professional. Kekron actually responded to random Frank P tweeting that like, it seems like Kekron is just kind of going wild lately. And they responded by, appreciate it.

We made some big changes. internally this year. I'm the CEO and I've been personally leading our new product development. We also rebuilt our product team. You're only seeing the beginning. We've got a lot more innovative products on the way. So it seems like the CEO may have just taken over Twitter and it's just like, he's tweeting anything from. Or did the social media manager become the CEO? That also could be true. But they're just showing off new products. They're showing off designs of products they haven't even thought about making yet or like to ask for different uh building in public building in public yeah they they actually to go back on something we talked about earlier when they released that fingertip

mouse they got the made with a i tag and then everyone was talking about it to where they were like we don't know why found out that it was through the render like coloring they used AI to color it and then they were like i guess this is what does it we'll like not do that in the future they're just being like super open and it feels like kikron's done the one plus route of be like, we're getting in, we're getting mech keyboards to be this actual accessible thing. Now we got big and we're just building a billion things to sell you that feels kind of cheap. And now we're going into a little more the like enthusiast space again and getting community feedback. And I mean, I still haven't tried any of these products. So I don't

know if they actually are that good, but they're building some cool stuff. And the Nate Pro looks awesome. It's cool. I feel like Ellis could have 20 of those on his desk. and just flinging balls all over. Leave it. I feel like Ellis could have like 10 of the Nate pros and just a million customizable buttons and track balls and everything. It doesn't have a knob, though,

which is what he loves. Oh, yeah, it's around the ball. Oh, yeah, there you go. It has everything. They're also working on a Thunderbolt doc. Yeah, I saw that. Why not? They're just like becoming the peripheral.

The CEO is literally responding to every single comment on Twitter. Yeah. he's just locked in. How do we feel about CEOs on Twitter? I was just going to say, that's a fair point. It leads down the wrong path, so chill. But at least, at least he's posting just under the Kikron account and then under his

personal one trying to have a personality. One of the things was him just like, it's him with this little four button macro pad that he put a mouse sensor in and he can use it as a mouse while having four customizable macro pad buttons on top. And he was like, if 500 people can, well, do you know what a macro pad is? Yeah. I had multiple, but like if you put a sensor on the bottom, it just becomes a mouse. I guess.

With buttons, like a logitick mouse that you can have different macros on the top. Yeah, but they're mouse shape. This is macropad shape. It just like seems like they're cooking up fun things there. And I think he wrote like if 500 people all make, like pre-order this, I'll make it or something like that. So yeah. Pop-quoise, what was their first keyboard? Keycrone cooking Q.

Nope. No, K-1. There it is. Yeah. It was last week. Like someone commented, how much are you playing on charging for this? The market really needs a fingertip. that's cheaper, can also compare to G-Bloves and specs.

And he just responded, how much would you suggest? Price and spec? And he's obviously not going to, like, do all of the things, but yeah, it just seems cool. Tell me how much to charge for this product. That's kind of crazy. Anyone else obsessed with carbon fiber keyboard cases lately? And then just is like him flinging around a random carbon fiber keyboard case that he has. This is kind of amazing.

My new Twitter king. David, relax. Sorry. But yeah, we should get to trivia. Yeah. Mark, it's kind of crazy that you to ask us about. What, look how cool this is. It's a mouse.

I know, but like, it doesn't look like a mouse? It can be a mouse. Is it a ring? Is it a ring? And it's just showing us like things that progressively look less and less like mice and being like, you can control your computer cursor with this.

That weird like two button finger pad you showed us earlier. This can of Chi Forrest is also a mouse. You can be, yeah. Oh, wait, actually. Is this other things? Because I was saying, you know, you're quite the person to ask us about having your company's CEO on Twitter because my company CEO is on Twitter. Yeah. And he is trying to have a personality on Twitter, too.

Yeah, Marquez, relax. What video do you guys think I should make? Dude. Guys, we can't talk about YouTube or tech. We have to talk about old-timey nautical measurements. Which of the following is the farthest unit of distance? A, the fathom, B, the league, C, the shackle, or D, the twas? Can't even spell the last one.

Twas. Okay. I really wanted to make sure I pronounced it right. Duaz. Sound like a smoker. You got to leave that. I literally can't take it out. Or just French, one of the two.

All right, which one is the farthest? Flip them and read. And all two of you wrote, Fathom. I fathom. I wrote shackle. Damn, damn. Can't be a league.

A fathom is three feet. Really? That's just a meter. A shackle is 15 fathoms. A yard is three feet. Let me finish. Sorry, okay. Shackle is 15 fathoms.

And a league. different countries have different exact measurements for what a league is. That makes no sense. It is between one and three miles, depending on what country you are in. So it's a league? That is a league. One to three miles is an enormous range. Wait, so what's a twas?

A twas is six feet. The entire point of a standard is that it's the same. Well, these are old-timey measure bits. Like, we don't use leagues anymore. And also earlier when all three of you were like, I know it's not league because they were 20,000 under the sea. That is a common misconception. The Jules Verne novel, 20,000 leagues under discrete, describes the vessel traveling 20,000 leagues

horizontally while they happen to be under the sea. They are not actually 20,000 leagues under sea. That's a bad name then. Correct. That is way deeper than the ocean goes. That's what I thought. You thought right. But you can't do 20,000 miles under the sea.

You can't. It would just be about twice the circumference of the earth. Yeah. I guess you can. Also, this was Rich talking about standards as Americans. All right. So, hey. Wait, I have to tell this story real quick.

Mom, I love you. I'm so sorry. But I was talking to my mom once. I described some unit of distance and like something. And my mom goes, I'm sorry. Like, how many football fields is that? Like everything in America is like measured in football fields. And I thought about my like brilliant academic mother.

And I was like, mom, you've never been to a football. football game in your life. Like, you don't even know how far of football. She was like, you're right. I have no idea how far on football field is. She has an idea in her head. She couldn't tell me how many feet or yards it was. I couldn't either.

I think it's actually more confusing because are you including end zones or not? Thank you. I don't know. Adam, here's your trivia question. Wait, before you do that real quick, can I read? I forgot, this is the funniest tweet the Kikron guy did. Do you have? Yeah, yeah, we're good.

It'll be really fast. He tweeted a picture of a mouse with a bunch of macrobons and he wrote, and he wrote eight side buttons, 88 grains, latest mag-ups, switches, blah, blah, more buttons than a typical mobile mouse, but lighter and simpler than a traditional MMO mouse. Would you be interested? Someone tweeted,

MMO gamers have waited years for this mouse, and he responded, you're kidding. We don't actually have that much confidence in this mouse, actually. What? That's weird. It's like multiplayer online battle arena. That was a bait.

It wasn't bait. I never heard of a moba. Okay, we still got BMW. Which automobile manufacturer operated the car sharing service. Reach now back in 2016. That's the wrong button. I'm going to wait and then press it again. Reach now?

Reach now. Do you guys want a hint? Yes. Yeah. Don't overthink it. That's my hint. Is there a car company called Reach? Maybe.

Maybe it's in a language. Maybe it's not. Who knows? Stellantis. Halo Reach. It could be Stalantis. What? Is it Scalantis a U.S. company?

Stalantis. Did you not say U.S. company? He didn't say any region for the company. He didn't say any region for the company. He was laughing because he was like, maybe it's not in English and you had Stalantas. Flip him and read. What do you got? Who wrote what?

I can't see. Who wants to go first? Marquez. Marquez, what'd you say? I wrote... I thought Reach Now was like RN was like something with... I'm going to stop you right there. You're incorrect.

He wrote Renaud. Renau. Andrew, would you write? BMW. David, would you write? BMW. Correct. Yeah, that's, yeah.

Yeah. Sorry, Marcus. I wrote like 50 bonus questions because it was such a long episode. I'll give you a bonus question real quick. We have time for this? You've got 30 seconds to answer it. If you can't come up with anything, that's on you. I'm going to try so hard.

Guys, name a single phone that you can buy in the United States in 2026 with a physical cordy keyboard that is not the minimal phone, 01, or the clicks communicator. Buy from where? The store. Physical keyboard? Physical cordy keyboard. It has to have buttons. It has to be on sale, new from the factory in 2026.

You can use it on U.S. characters. What was it called? like the exact model name. Yes. If you get the iteration wrong, like if you say the blank blank three instead of the blank blank two, I'm okay with that.

I didn't. That's okay. I don't got it. Nothing. You all put nothing. The first answer was the Unaherts. Oh, the Titan. Two.

All right. No more points awarded. Thank you all for listening to the longest episode of the Wayform podcast ever. Is it really? I don't know. All right. Might be.

Close. What else do we say? If you watch and subscribe. Yeah, if you made it this far, I really appreciate you. The European Union is going to mandate that we have shorter episodes for competition purposes. Unless you all comment right now. Yeah. Yeah.

Save us. For interoperability, we actually have to tell you guys to subscribe to the Vergecast. And that's where we cut. That's where it adds. That's where it ends. If you made it this far, you got the joke. So there it is. Thanks for watching.

That's so fucking funny. I thought you were going to say like on Spotify and Apple Podcast. Okay. Waveform is produced by Adam Alina and Alice Roven. We're not part of the Vox Media. No, we are. We are. We are still part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Intraughtry music is by Vain Sil. We'll see you next Friday. Bingo, let's go. Normal episode. Yeah. Press the button. In a very different place. Yeah, we might be.

You have to leave that part in. Just like Marquez whispering, we'll be in a very different place.