We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 105. Restart Your Sex Life with Dr. Lori Brotto

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

1. Answers to fascinating sex questions from Pod Squaders–including how to get real in the bedroom after regularly faking orgasm. 2. Concrete mindfulness strategies to get out of your head and into your body, which have been proven to increase arousal and satisfaction. 3. Busting the myth about how long it should take to orgasm.  4. Why talking about sex (including fantasies!) before having sex leads to more satisfying intimacy–and why that feels fun for Abby and impossible to Glennon and Amanda. 5. Where to start if you’ve never discussed pleasure with a partner–and Dr. Brotto’s advice to Glennon for retiring her reign as Silent Sex Queen. About Dr. Brotto Dr. Lori Brotto is a Professor in the UBC Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, where she holds a Canada Research Chair in Women’s Sexual Health. She is also the Executive Director for the Women’s Health Research Institute—one of only three institutes in Canada devoted to advancing research in women’s health, and maintains an active practice as a Registered Psychologist. Dr. Brotto was recently featured in the Netflix series The Principles of Pleasure, and is the author of Better Sex through Mindfulness: How Women Can Cultivate Desire and forthcoming The Better Sex through Mindfulness Workbook: A Guide to Cultivating Desire. TW: @DrLoriBrotto

Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Since we have Dr. Brotto, Dr. Lori Brotto back with us today to talk to us about sex. I am not going to waste your time talking about anything else. Okay. So let's jump in. Hi, Abby. Hi, hi, sister. Hi, Dr. Brato. Hi, hi. Hi, hi. Hello. Hello. Let's talk about sex, baby. Somebody had to do it. Everybody had to do it. Everybody knew that was coming. Sorry. Okay. No, no, no. We love you. We love you. Never gets old. Does it though? Does it? Okay. I want to just recap. Everyone must go back if you haven't and listen to the first episode where we talked about sexual dysfunction, mostly in women, and how so much of it is caused by many things. One being our beliefs about sex and our conditioning about sex from our culture, which shames us into flea. our bodies early, the political climate right now, and stress of all kinds, how stress in our, in our minds makes us not able to be in our bodies during sex. Can you, Dr. Brito, give us a better description of it than I just gave us of how stress keeps us from having good sex? Yeah, for sure. Let's define stress, first of all. Like, we can think about things that are stressful, like a big event that we don't want to attend or a big event that we have to

plan for. And then there's the day-to-day stress, the never-ending to-do lists, the daily grind, the having to get groceries at the end of the day because the fridge is empty. And it does turn out that the day-to-day stressors, that kind of perpetual to-do list, do more damage to our brain than single. big life event stressors. And it's because of their chronic nature. So our brains were evolved to deal with stressors in the moment, right? We encounter the saber tooth tiger. We have this big fight or flight response. And we either, you know, take off or we fight the saber tooth tiger,

but that would be stupid. So we didn't. And we wouldn't have evolved over time. So we run. So our stress response system hasn't evolved over millennia. It has not evolved. It, does the same thing. So when we encounter the day-to-day stress, like, oh my gosh, I'm late for picking up my kid from school, we launch that full body response as if we're going into the den with the saber-tooth tiger. When that happens on a chronic level, our brain can't turn that off. And so we actually have this kind of chronic state of stress. And we see it show up in cortisol levels, which is the main stress hormone. So normally we wake up with high cortisol in the morning. It kind of gives us that zest to start the day and then over the course of the day it comes down.

When we are chronically stressed, it stays high the whole time. And it malfunctions. It actually doesn't help us to cope. It does the opposite and can be linked to depression in the long term. How does that affect us in the bed? Yeah. So that's stress. Chronic high cortisol levels, they interfere with some of the hormones that are involved

in sexual response. but they can also directly affect the brain in a way that makes the brain unable to process sexual triggers, right? So we might see something that in the past used to turn us on. Maybe it's seen something erotic in a film or reading something erotic or having a sexual fantasy. Stress can actually disrupt that entire system and it happens on a brain level. That's one of the ways. But then there's also all of the physical side effects of that, like carrying tension in our body. and when we're carrying muscle tension in our body,

it's not the good kind of tension that would be pro-sexual. It actually backfires and makes it a lot harder to get sexually aroused and reach orgasm. So stress is a major culprit for a lot of the sexual concerns that we see, not just low desire,

but even pain with sex, problems reaching orgasm, and not feeling pleasure. Stress is not going to say the number one reason, but it's definitely in the top three that should be investigated. So why does stress not? Because in our first episode, we talked about how one of the issues that gets in the way of good sex for us, for women especially, is our conditioning and our shaming over time.

Women have that in different measure than men. So it makes sense that we would, that would be a bigger issue for us with sex. Why doesn't stress get in the way of men feeling desire? I assume they have some stress also, right? So why does stress break our mind-body connection and not their mind-body connection? Because what I'm hearing here is a lot of themes that we've been discussing all along and we can do hard things. The overwhelm episode with sister discussing the mental load that women carry of running our

families is often different than what men carry. That would make sense that we would have more stress because of that. So are they stressed? And if men are stressed, then why isn't it getting the way of sex for them? Yeah, it's a big question. Unfortunately, we don't have the perfect science to answer it. What we've got are a lot of good guesses and hypotheses. First of all, we know that stress can actually drive sexual arousal in men. So we've got lots of examples of men while stressed, getting erections. And we did talk in the last episode about the body's response and the mind's response in

in males, tending to be more in sync with each other. So sometimes stress can be, more pro-sexual. So we think about a stressful day, right, at work, or even a conflict or even a violent encounter can actually be pro-sexual in men and in women has the opposite effect. There's also all sorts of different interactions with hormones in men than there is in women that also explain some of the differences that we see in the effects of stress on sexual response. Interesting. Yes. It's like men ejaculating.

It's like I got to get the stress out of me. I've got to like there's like this this body's response really in my mind. And the fact that they can actually see their erection is like for me real proof because so many women have never even looked at their own vaginas. Right. It's like this hidden secret, this hidden mystery. So for men to be able to actually see their actual erections, it's pretty obvious that they're sexually stimulated in those.

Yeah, exactly. One of the things that I loved about our first episode is that when we discussed, how do we know if we are having healthy sex lives? And by the way, who care? With a partner, with two partners, with 10 partners, with no partners, whatever, who cares? Right? That doesn't matter. Are we experiencing pleasure? You said would be not frequency, not partners, not just the question, Am I experiencing pleasure within sex is an excellent barometer? And I love that. I have had experiences in my life where my pleasure wasn't a factor in any way before my current marriage. Thanks, babe.

Yes. What does a person who, because, really, if a woman's not experiencing pleasure in bed with her partner, and her partner is not making any effort to change that or even care about it or even talk about it, is it dysfunction that she has no desire or is it just totally effing logical? Yeah, it's adaptive. What is a script? How does a person who has never discussed pleasure with their partner who, this is like a frontier for her. Like she wants to be able to have pleasure in her sex life. How does she even begin? Right. Because also it might not even be the partner's fault. Like plenty of people. And we get

questions all the time from people who maybe they've been faking orgasm because that's what they've been doing since they were 15. So the other person might not even know or the other person might want to know and you might not. I mean, I can't, I can't talk during sex. I can't talk. I can't talk. I am, I can't do it. My mouth will not open. Like, what do? Maybe the person wants to know, but you just can't start. How do you start using words? Yeah. We're going to change that. Okay. We're going to change that for you. Let's start, first of all, not in that sexual encounter. First of all, let's make sure that this person feels permission, feels empowered to know her own body, to touch her own body, to know what feels good, to know what kinds of stimulation,

work best for her in different scenarios. Let's make sure she has a great quality lubricant. Yes, lubricant for 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds, not just for post-menopausal vaginas. Every woman should have a lubricant. And let's make sure that she has the time and the space and the privacy to know her body. That's commandment number one. Let's make sure that she knows. Every woman needs a lubricant of her own.

Yeah. That's what you're saying. Okay. Go ahead. Or subscription because when it runs out, you need to make sure that there's another one on its way. Excellent. And I recognize when I say that that there's all sorts of barriers that are coming up. There's all sorts of negative beliefs and oppositions to that, right?

Because essentially what I'm saying is we want to not just normalize, but encourage self-exploration and masturbation in women. Yes. In the same way, we talked in the last episode about that young boy and the bath, feeling the bath water, and it's normalized and ha, ha, ha, the penis is growing. And, you know, masturbation in young boys becomes normalized over time as a rite of passage. So for a woman to know what feels good, she has to know her own body first, first and foremost. And we have to recognize also that with age, with change, in hormones. And I know you covered this fabulously with my dear friend, Dr. Jen Gunter,

the impact of the perimenopause and menopause and changing hormones on sexual response. And so we need to also accept that what felt good at an earlier time in my life or with a different partner might feel different. And that's okay and that's normal. So this kind of process of knowing your body and knowing what pleasure is and how to get it continues throughout her life. Okay. So that's rule number one. That has to be in place. masturbate is number one. Masturbate is number one. Know thyself.

Know thyself. Okay. Yeah. And I think masturbating during different periods of your life, it's like, I think that that was really important for me to hear. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. Okay.

So now we're going to fast forward. You're an expert in knowing your own body and what elicits pleasure for you. For a lot of, a lot of people. And let's just assume people who kind of haven't started having sex with each other yet. they they don't take the time to have a conversation at the outset about their preferences, what they like, what they don't like, what they want to try with that person. It's an opportunity to share some fantasies about what you might want to do. By the way, you can even do this in a long-term relationship.

If you haven't done it before, you can say, oh, I heard this fabulous podcast episode on we can do hard things. And they talked about the pro-relationship effects of having a conference. about fantasy. Oh, God. Right? Okay. Hold on a second.

All right. Abby's starting because she's been trying to get me to talk about this for it since we met. Okay. Let's go. I have a question. I don't want to derail us because I do want to talk about how a woman who, that sounds like varsity to me. Like I just sitting down and being like, let's talk about what we might try in our fantasies. Like that I want to be that person.

Okay, but I want to talk about starting smaller. I'm confused about fantasy in general because if we're supposed to be being mindful of what's happening in the room and in our bodies, and we're supposed to be paying attention. All of a sudden you got a unicorn in there with you. Exactly. So I'm supposed to be, I thought I'm supposed to be out of my mind and in my body, which by the way, I don't understand why it's called mindful. That pisses me off. It should be called mindlessness. We're trying to get less full of mind, right? But anyway, that's fine. But are we supposed, then fantasy comes, doesn't that make us get lost in our mind again and not in the present moment? Yeah, yeah. Great. I'm glad you put your finger on that paradox. So fantasy is not mindfulness. Fantasy is deliberately going to a sexual place that excites you. That's what fantasy is. So I often talk about fantasy as a tool, right? Fantasy is something you can do, say, in the lead-up to a planned sexual encounter. We talked in the last episode about foreplay extending from the time the last sexual episode ends until the start of the next one.

Fantasy might be a way to kind of lubricate that, right? Lubricate that foreplay. Sometimes people can use fantasy during a sexual encounter to heighten the response. There's a fabulous book called Tell Me What You Want by my colleague Justin Lay Miller, surveyed thousands of people and documented literally thousands of different fantasies that people have. And fantasy doesn't have to be what you actually want to do or what you are doing in your life. So all fantasy is is sexual imagery, but it's not mindfulness. Right. So, but I want to go back to what I was talking about in that conversation when you're not in the bedroom or wherever you decide

to have sex because people don't just have sex in beds and bedrooms. There's lots of other places that people can have sex and should have sex. So the fan. fantasy conversation there is about what would you like to do in this blank canvas. What do you want to do together? And we can start with what we actually will do. And then we can get kind of fun and playful and talk about some of the really way out there and crazy things that we know we'll never do, but is a fun kind of exercise to do regardless in terms of kind of kind of interest and kindling that desire, right? So all of this boils down to having a conversation about sex before sex starts. That's what this boils down to. Wow. It's so fascinating because

that feels so terrifying to me. And it's just proof that in our culture, we are so much more comfortable with actually being physically intimate before we are even emotionally or intellectually intimate with each other. Because it's less terrifying. Because it's so much more intimate. Exactly. It's more intimate. It is. It feels way more intimate to talk about sex than to just have it. And that's sad because that's how I have been conditioned over time.

That like it's less close to just do it. Well, it's almost like another tool that Dr. Brotto has talked about. Like it's this foreplay mechanism that can be part of the entire sexual experience sitting down and having a conversation about what to expect. I know. A future fantasy. Like to me, I haven't had as much issue talking about sex or wanting to have these discussions as Glennon. And so it's kind of difficult in our relationship and our sexual relationship how I am

capable or wanting to and she's a little more hesitant. So I'm sure so many people listening to this are either me or Glennon in this way. What do you recommend to those of us who are more? capable of having this conversation and those of us who are left. Yeah, talk to us about the sensate focus thing. Because isn't that a way of like touching and talking? Yes. Yes. Because clearly people like me are like, I will, I'm, it is easier for me to let you into my vagina than into my mind. Oh my God. Please let this be the video that goes on iTunes. Right there. You know, we're all sort of aghast. But.

That represents, right, people, people's bodies have sex, but their mind and their emotion and their heart does not. Right. So, first of all, let me just set the record straight that when I say fantasy, because in the same way, in the last episode, we talked about erotica and porn, it conjures up a very specific image that people might have of hardcore and, you know, penis in vagina and no one wants it and people are unhappy. And I think similarly with fantasy people are imagining having sex with everyone else besides your own partner. All fantasy is is sexual imagery. So it might even be creating a scene in your own mind of what you want to do sexually with your own partner. That's a fantasy. So I just want to create lots and lots of space for the contents of the fantasy when we talk about fantasy.

But no doubt about it, it can be a really important tool that we use. And in fact, in my own race, I do pair it with mindfulness. And we've done this across hundreds of women in the groups that we run where we'll invite her to go home, engage in a fantasy. And then we send her a little recording of my voice guiding her through a mindfulness. And then she does the mindfulness practice. And inevitably, what they'll say is that by first turning the mind on and having it a bit sexually excited, it allows them to tune more into those erotic sensations in their body that they otherwise miss. Yeah, that makes sense. They don't know is there. So that's a way to bring fantasy and mindfulness together.

Okay, you asked about Sensate Focus. This is an old sex therapy practice. It's been around since the 1960s, Masters and Johnson developed it. And at the time, their theory was that anxiety is at the root of all sexual problems, right? So guys who can't get erections, it's due to anxiety. women who can't have penetration when the muscles tense up, it's because of anxiety. Low desire is because of anxiety. So their exercise of sensate focus, which requires a couple, requires two people, and involves person number one, touching person number two, head to toe, excluding the chest and the genitals. And person number two who's receiving the touch is tuning in, is relaxing into the touch.

and is giving some gentle feedback, either verbal feedback, like, that feels good, keep going, or nonverbal feedback, maybe a smile or some other gesture of liking it. That continues for about 15 minutes, and then they swap. Now the giver of the touch becomes a receiver or the receiver becomes the giver. And the idea is that you repeat this a number of times before you then move on to the next stage. And the next stage includes breast and genital touch. But the goal is not to create arousal or orgasm. The goal is relaxation, tuning in, and that kind of communication.

So here's what we know about sense of focus. First of all, anxiety is not the reason for all sexual problems. There's lots and lots of, I think we can say patriarchy is the reason for all sexual problems in women. But anxiety is not the universal contributor for all sexual problems in people. But we do know that sensate focus is probably useful for most sexual problems or most sexual struggles in a couple because we can always stand to learn something about how the other person wants to be touched, about what happens when we say penetration is no go.

And this is just about experiencing what comes up in the moment. So sex is actually off the table with sensate focus, even if there's a lot. even if they're really aroused and want to go on and do something more sexual at the end. We say, nope, that day, no sex. Schedule it for another day. So when you suddenly remove that, it allows you to just fully immerse yourself into the current experience. And you suddenly have people who've been in relationships for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years saying, oh my God, I never knew that this little quadrant on my lower back was so responsive.

I had no idea until we did this exercise. Well, guess what you just learned. You just learned another erotic zone that can be stimulated during sexual pleasure. Cool. Right. So it's a fabulous exercise. Highly recommend it. And the practicing communicating, it reminds me of everything else that we're supposed to do in relationships with therapy.

Like we learn to talk to each other. We practice conflict before we're in it. We practice so that when we're in it, we already have the tools to communicate. with each other. That's the same idea of Sensate Focus, is that we're practicing before we're in it. So we're not learning on the job. Yeah, don't learn on the job. Well, it's not working for us. So we'll try the Sensate Focus. This time of year, I am always looking for my sweaters. Luckily, Quince has all of the staple sweaters covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces

without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. I can't tell you how much I'm loving my quince cashmere sweater in this gorgeous oatmeal color. It's become the thing I grab almost every day. It's held up beautifully. It still feels soft and it honestly looks way more expensive than it is. You know how frugal I am. And I've started picking up a few quince pieces for home too. They have travel bags and sheets. Their sheets are awesome. 10 out of 10. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Don't wait. Go to Quince. Quince.com slash hard things for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too.

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash hard things to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash hard things. If you're a business owner who knows nothing about AI and feels really out of the loop, you're not alone. In today's data-driven world, you really need to understand your customers. and NetSuite can deliver those insights with zero fuss. No more waiting. With NetSuite, you can integrate AI into your operations today. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP, trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into one single

source of truth. And now with NetSuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice and connect it to your actual business data. So you can finally ask every question you've ever had, who our key customers, what's our cash on hand, what's trending in our inventory, and you can automate all those manual processes no one wants to do. Right now, get our free business guide, demystifying AI at net suite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at net suite.com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. Before we move on to our podcast, squatter cues because I'm very excited about them. What is the first thing a person should do, should say to her partner? She's, she's masturbated all the way from here to Kalamazoo.

She knows what she likes. She has done all of the thing. She has her lubricant subscription. What should she say to her partner? Can you just give us a sentence? Asking for a friend, Plennon? Just like if she wants to start the journey of them both exploring her own pleasure instead of just his ejaculation. Yeah. There's so much nuance because it depends on the relationship dynamic and how receptive partner is. But I think a safe way to start is, you know, for the most part, I love our sex life. I love the things that we do.

And I want to try something different. Right. And so the framing is about opportunity rather than I dislike and this is broken and we need to change it. Unless, of course, it is broken. Right, right. Unless, of course, it is painful because one in five women do have painful sex. That's not normal. But again, we're just assuming that along with the lubricant subscription that the sex for the most part is pretty good.

and it's about how do we now focus on her pleasure and make that the center point. Okay. So we're going to do the compliment sandwich. We learned in third grade. We're going to say something nice first. And we're going to do an and both. Not it sucked so, but and we're going to try something new. Awesome.

Okay. Should we move on to our Pod Squador Dr. Brito cues? They need some Dr. Brotto in their lives. We all do. We all do. We all do. Can we start with Lindsay? Hi, this is Lindsay, and I have kind of an embarrassing question.

I think some people can probably relate to. I have to admit that I am a big faker in bed. I have turned this into an art form, lots of moaning, Merrill Streep in the bedroom. But I am struggling because I'm finally with a great partner who would probably be very understanding and would actually want to please me and help me, you know, get there. but I've already been faking it for a very long time in our relationship.

And now I don't know what to do. How do I unfake in the bedroom? How do I just ease out of that? Hope you guys can help and love you guys. Keep doing what you're doing. Oh my God. I love Lindsay so much. And also you can sense the hope in her that she's like,

this might be someone who actually wants to be genuine and I want to be genuine with them. How do I unfake? So good. First of all, Lindsay, thank you. Lindsay represents 60% of women. Wow. Really? National study done out of the Kinsey Institute a few years ago

that essentially asked women, have you ever faked an orgasm? And are you still faking orgasms? And if you've stopped faking them, why have you stopped? So 60% of women will say on numerous occasions that they have faked an orgasm. And the number one reason, I mean, do we even have to take a guess?

It's please a partner, right? It sort of feeds into that same, I should reach an orgasm. Orgasm is a critical part of my sexual partner's happiness. And the kinds of shoulds that lead women to fake an orgasm have nothing to do with her and her needs. And it has everything to do with her expectations. So among the women that, do eventually stop faking orgasms. Something really shifted in that encounter and that relationship.

And she realized that actually no one is benefiting from this. It's actually driving a wedge between our sexual satisfaction. And in fact, we actually do know that, that the science shows us in the long-term women who do continue to fake their orgasms, have less sexual satisfaction. Maybe that's a no-brainer because, you know, faking orgasms doesn't happen in a vacuum. It goes along with all the patriarchal views and the shoulding and the negative sex messaging and the poor education. To that extent, Lindsay's in good company. I think one thing that I would really empower Lindsay and others to do is to not accept an easing out of it rather than a just stop. Like today, today we're going to stop.

We're going to stop. because the sexual encounters have become stressful because she's going into it. She's now spectatoring, right? She's monitoring. Am I getting closer? Is it getting there? She realizes she's not. So she starts moaning.

Then she watches herself moan. And then she might say, is that the right kind of moan? Or is that a too much of pornographic moan? Right? And suddenly she is not having sex anymore. She is watching from the side of the room with a stopwatch. waiting for herself to reach orgasm. And then her partner hears the moaning and says,

oh, are we getting closer? Are you almost there? I'm almost there too. Can we go at the same time? Another false myth that needs to be debunked, which is simultaneous orgasm, you know, is the root of sexual happiness in a relationship. It is not.

It is not whatsoever. So you can see how this pattern continues over time and how it happens to 60% of women. So, yeah, the first thing to do is, just to completely stop and realize that it's actually getting in the way of allowing you to feel orgasm more naturally. So stop, completely stop. Whether you choose to tell a partner that you have been faking it and that that can be a catalyst for a really great conversation about sex in a relationship, or it could go the other way and a partner might feel betrayed and what else have you been lying to me about.

So it can go in not just two ways. It can go a multitude of ways if a person chooses to tell a partner. I don't think you have to tell a partner. So we do want to make sure that Lindsay knows how to reach orgasm and knows what orgasm feels like on her own. And really this is where mindfulness comes in, right? It's about staying with the body, staying with the sensations in the moment, telling herself that sexual pleasure is not wrapped up in orgasm. that's wrapped up in being very present and being in sync and feeling good with vulnerability. And that if orgasm happens on its own, great.

That maybe is the icing on the cake or maybe it's totally irrelevant. So there's a number of things that Lindsay can do in the moment with a partner, but there's a whole lot that she can do outside of the bedroom to unhinge those really patriarchal views about what orgasm really needs. Cool. It's interesting that Lindsay now has a partner that she feels might be trustworthy of, might be worthy of incapable of having this conversation and it might be a really interesting test to try. I mean, I told Abby, I've never not faked an orgasm before our relationship. That's all I did my entire life. I just thought that's just what we do. Let's just get the job done. And honestly, I felt like we were all completely. implicit in it. Like, I always wonder about this because I never felt like if I had told my partner that I was faking, that they would have been all that surprised. I don't think I was that good of an actor. I just felt like there was a situation set up where women are supposed to do it and men are supposed to act like they think that it happened and that there's not a lot of care.

Like plausible deniability. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I've always had an issue. I've always felt like it just takes me too long. Takes me too long. And it's... Have you ever used a stopwatch? It doesn't... It doesn't take you too long. I keep telling you.

That's my point. Yeah. Is feeling like it's taking too long is feeding into these societal views or notions, which is it should take X number of minutes. And so if you're outside of that window of time, there's something wrong with you. Yeah.

And it's just another example of women thinking I'm too much. I'm not enough. I'm too much. I'm not enough. Like, there's no actual amount that is perfect for a woman. Like, if I'm too much, what amount am I supposed to be? And it's the same with orgasm. It's like, where did we get all of these ideas? That there's a certain amount of time that is correct. Yeah. Abby asked, is there a certain amount of time? And there isn't. And it's because the research that has asked that question has been so all over the map that they can't put. their finger on a single number. In fact, I would argue, you want orgasms to take a long time because that means arousal is prolonged. It means there's this sort of very natural waxing

and waning of the sexual response building. Maybe you take a pause and chit-chat, right? So this idea that faster is better is really dangerous, really dangerous. I have a follow-up question because I think that this could help a lot of folks. When you, you are in that moment, because it's happened, I think, to probably all women who've been in sexual encounters, is this taking too long? What do you suggest for a woman in that moment to do to get back into her body and out of her mind? I mean, it's wrapped up in your question, Abby, and that is you get back into your body. You ask yourself, where do I feel the vibration? Where is the tension?

Where is the heat? Where is the warmth? Where is the coolness? Where is the wetness? That's what you do. You literally anchor yourself in physical sensations. And we can't do both at the same time, the same way that we can't multitask. You can't be processing all of these judgmental thoughts and be fully riding on the evolving

sensations in your body at the same time. So it's a beautiful anchor to bring you back to the present. Is there a way to engage with your partner and communicate some of this mind that's coming into play and kind of getting in between you and your body in the moment? Like, do we have like a safe word or whatever it's called? Yeah, yeah. So when couples ask me that I'll often say, well, what works best for the two of you? Do you want partner to ask you? Like, do you want partner to say, what are you feeling right now?

now and where do you feel it? Or do you want to be the person to say, you know, that safe word or that whatever single word it is? So there's some dynamics there that we need to figure out what it is, but definitely it is something that both partners can be engaged in. So one way to be mindful with a partner at the same time is open your eyes. Now, for some people that really creeps them out, right? The sort of looking deep into each other's eyes. But when you get past all the psychological hangups about and discomfort that come about with looking into someone's eyes. Now you can really focus on the color, the shape, the eyelashes, the distance between the two eyes. And it can be a really pretty easy and effective way of bringing you both into the present moment

at the same time. God, it's so good. I want to throw in one other thing, a piece of advice for Lindsay. And that is if she feels comfortable, and I would really empower her to do this, is ask her partner to watch her masturbate. Mm-hmm. Just silence. Just silence from the whole we can do hard things.

We're all sort of imagining that play out. Well, it's because sometimes partners don't know what really stimulates the other, right? And I think seeing that it's not just for eroticism's sake, it's like actual functionality's instruction. It's a didactic teaching session. It's really good. Oh, Lindsay. Do you care to join me for a didactic teaching session at 10.15 after we put the kids down?

Lindsay, we need you to report back after your didactic teaching session. Let us know how it went. Godspeed, Lindsay. You can do hard things. I love it so much. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge. You can see what's clicking and where a little extra reinforcement could help. That's where I-XL steps in, giving kids targeted practice so they can strengthen those areas early and keep moving forward with confidence.

I-XL is an award-winning online learning platform that supports math, language arts, science, and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade. What I love is how seamlessly it fits alongside what's already happening in the classroom. Your child can practice the same skills they're learning at school, which makes it easier to keep up, feel prepared, and really understand the material. I-X-L is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get I-XL now. And we can do hard things listeners can get an exclusive 20% off I-XL membership

when they sign up today at www.IXL.com slash we can. Visit Ixel.com slash we can to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? Not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking, I can't keep doing it like this. You're not alone. Strawberry.me is career coaching that helps you get to the real root of your burnout, whether it's workload, boundaries, a tough manager, or feeling disconnected from the work you used to love.

Our coaches help you untangle what's draining you, build boundaries that actually stick, redesign your day-to-day so it energizes you, and create a problem. plan so burnout doesn't sneak back. And with a new year starting, it's the perfect moment to rethink how you want to feel. You can get matched with a coach in just a few minutes and sessions are flexible, private, and built around the reality of your life. Go to strawberry.combe slash we can do hard things and try a coaching session for 50% off. Strawberry.combe, because your career should feel good again. Okay, let's hear from Zoe. Hi, Glennon, sister, and Abby.

This is Zoe. I've recently started dating a woman, and she is just amazing, really top-notch, good human. And I have a lot, a lot of love for her, and I care about her a lot. There's something missing. She's the first woman I've been with in any way. And the romance I'm having a really hard time with and some of the physical intimacy and I just, I really don't want to let her go, but I feel like I don't know if I'll be able to get there, but it just, I just, I don't know. I'm just lost. And I would really like to hear more of your thoughts. This is Zoe's first relationship with another woman. And it sounds like things are going well, but she's not feeling a whole lot of sexual desire or sexual attraction for her partner.

I'm just sort of clarifying what I heard because she mentioned romance, but I think she, by romance, she might have been referring to sex. That's what's missing. So the romance is great. The connection is good. Communication is good. But the sexual energy or the sexual desire, that's where the big question mark is. So, you know, first of all, we want to take a step back and I'll come back to our conversation

from the last episode, which is love is not the same. thing as desire. They can be very separate. Love is something that grows and builds over time. Desire similarly can also be cultivated, right? It's not something that is just automatic and spontaneous and there. And so I wonder if what Zoe is feeling is kind of what a lot of people feel, which is motivation, but not necessarily desire for sex. So I want to normalize that, first of all. And then I would encourage Zoe to think about what's in it for me, what's in it for us if we were to go into this sexual encounter. Right. So we're normalizing neutrality and we're giving her tons of permission and creativity to think about why have sex. Maybe it's to do something

totally new with a partner, you know, a same sex partner that I've never done anything with. Maybe it's an opportunity to learn something about myself from a same. same-sex partner. So really to give herself time to think about the reasons. And if that leads her to consent and wanting, again, doesn't have to be desire, then she can go ahead in all of the same ways that we've been talking, asking for permission, showing partner what she likes, being open that arousal can give way to desire, recognizing that orgasm does not have to happen, and sort of treat this as, I mean, she almost wants to treat this as her first ever sexual encounter. Right?

Imagine, like, let's erase all your past. In fact, every new sexual encounter is a brand new. It's almost like sex for the first time. Right. And so that's where some of the danger is, is she might be comparing this to her feelings in past relationships. The current partner might be doing less soliciting, right? Less inviting.

And if it is a woman, again, it's very gender. probably less of that kind of pressuring into having sex that maybe she did experience from men. So there's a lot that makes this different. And different doesn't mean broken. Different means an opportunity to be creative and be open. And please, please, please, please communicate, right? Communicate. Let's go back to fantasy. What do you want to do? What can we do? I've never done this before. Show me. Teach me. I'm open to walk me through. Let me watch you. So think slow, simmering, smoldering fire rather than a big bursting flame all at once. And that can be super sexy.

So this is a wonderful opportunity for Zoe. Interesting. So you're even suggesting that she continues this trying and cultivating is because she is experiencing pleasure in this relationship. Right. She's experiencing pleasure through emotional, through. she's reported there's so much goodness there and it's just this physical. But because for me, I'm looking at her and I'm thinking, that's how I used to feel about with guys. Right.

So is there, how do you know? I just, this is dangerous territory. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to ask this in like, but I know the listener is going to be thinking this. So I'm like, how do you know when it's just maybe that's not your sexuality? Or can it? Can choice be involved in that? Because I've always felt like there's some measure of choice involved. Can we allow for that?

Or are we supposed to say, well, sister, maybe you are just not gay. Okay. There's a lot in that. And I think your trepidation around this is warranted. We're not talking about just doing it for the sake of doing it. even if it's not consensual, right? That's not what we're talking about. I'm going into this with a lot of assumptions that Zoe and her partner have a strong

emotional and romantic bond. She wants to be sexual because I think I heard her say that she wants to, but she's just not sensing it there. And what is jumping out to me is she's comparing this in an unfair way to past sexual encounters that have been with men. Okay. Yeah. And she's saying I'm not able to get there. And I think when when you were talking to us, Dr. Brito, about the one of the most important things about our sexual pleasure or dysfunction is the beliefs we bring in, we're born with a heteronormative message mandate through our whole lives. And it could be that Zoe is bringing into that pictures and stories in her head about how this is not right. This is unnatural. This is whatever it is. And just because it's coming. from her doesn't mean it's of her. You know, it could be needing to say, to look at those things and

say, what is this block? What story am I telling myself that is taking me out of my head and not letting me go there with this person? Right. Right. Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought that up because is this for Zoe also creating questions of who am I? Right. So because I'm attracted to a woman, does this mean I'm a lesbian? And what does this mean for my? understanding of myself for the last however old she is, 30 years, 40 years, rather than saying, I'm attracted to this person, right? It's not about our gender and whether we fit into this category or that category. Rather, it's about my love and admiration and attraction for this person. And so that is a really important conversation because if she did grow up with messages

that have been denigrating towards same-sex sexualities, she's going to be carrying those with her, whether she knows them or not. They are going to be making their way into her psyche and into her bedroom. And it's also possible that they're just friends, you know? It really is. It's all, like, the love that she has inside of her

might just be more friendship love. Totally. But, you know, I'm always going to say go for it. Right, right. I'm pro-gay over here. Okay, Zoe, good luck, sister. Let's hear from Sarah. Hi, Glenn. Hi, Abby. My question is this. I'm a little over two weeks sober. Yay. And I haven't had sober sex yet. And I'm really scared. I haven't had sex sober in years. And I just don't know how to do it. I'm scared of being so present. Just wondered if you had any tips. I guess that's it. Love you so much. This is Sarah. Thanks. Bye. I feel this one. I feel this one.

Well, kudos to you, Sarah, for this period of sobriety. There's a lot we know about the effects of alcohol and sex. And for a lot of people, alcohol numbs negative sex messages in a way that allows them to engage in sex. Right? So all the inhibitions that we can. whether they're external and patriarchal or they're rooted in the present relationship, right? Like, you're not good enough. The only way for this to work is for us to have a certain frequency and type of sex, et cetera. So all those messages can be numbed through sex. It is a coping mechanism that, quote, allows a person to engage in sex,

but obviously in a really unhealthy way because it means that she's actually. having sex in spite of some of these important messages that are being numbed through alcohol. Now, at the same time, alcohol is a depressant and has a direct effect on the nerves, on the blood vessels, on the neurotransmitters, on the sexual system in the body. It's been an area of intense research study. They'll set up an experiment where they bring, usually college kids into a lab and protect them and watch them and make them sign a waiver that they're going to stay in the lab for six hours until the alcohol has left their blood. But what it's allowed us to learn is the impact of increasing doses of alcohol on sexual

response. And it kicks in pretty fast. So for say and, you know, quote average build of woman, whatever average is, after a drink, the impact of alcohol on her sexual response starts to take its toll. Like in a negative way? In a negative way. Yeah. So it interferes. with arousal and because arousal is necessary for orgasm, it can be a major reason why women are not reaching orgasm when they're drinking at the same time. So on the one hand, you have the quote benefits of not having all the negative messages, but on the other hand, your body is going the opposite way and not feeling and not feeling arousal or orgasm. So now Sarah is starting to come out of that. Right? So the good news, she's going to start to feel her body. She's going to start to

feel the early signs of arousal. And I'd encourage Sarah to really tune into that. I mean, she's, depending on how long she's been drinking for, maybe she has no idea what arousal even feels like. So this is an amazing opportunity for her to learn maybe for the first time. What are the early signs of arousal? Can I build it? Can I watch it? Does arousal travel through my body and use this as a, again, a time to be really excited about that. On the other hand, she's now going to be faced with all the negative messages that were blunted with alcohol. So having tools in place to be able to address that, depending on the nature of what the negative messages were and how strong they were, this might be an opportunity to work

with a professional, a psychologist, a sex therapist, someone trained in helping you manage what the negative beliefs are, or if they're on the kind of milder scale, maybe it is something that Sarah can do on her own. If there has been any past history of unwanted sex, sexual assault, rape, for a lot of women, alcohol does become a way of numbing and tuning out. those past messages. So if that is part of her history, I'd really advocate that she reach out to a skilled healthcare provider to help, help encounter those memories again because they might come back pretty fiercely. I have a message for Sarah about sobriety, but can you tell me, do so many women have been our survivors of sexual assault of all kinds?

Is there hopeful messages you can give us about that? Do people recover? Or is it, it's not recovering, is it? Is it just living with it and finding ways to, can they still have pleasure during sex with their partners and how? Yeah, absolutely. And Glennon, I'm assuming that you're talking about when it comes to sex, right? So there might be other ways that the remnants play themselves out. Yeah, it's been an area of huge research study. In fact, I was just at a conference over the weekend in Chicago where this was a major theme that came up, which was what happens to those women who experienced sexual assault or rape either as an adult, an adolescent, as a child, and what happens to their sexuality as they grow? And the good news is about

half of them are able to really fully move past it and don't see any impact on their sexuality or on their sexual desire. They're able to engage in consensual ways and feel pleasure and arousal. And the bad news is half do not. That, of course, can be mitigated with a good, qualified, trusting health care provider who knows how to manage, not just sexual assault, but if, if there's any PTSD, post-traumatic stress symptoms, and how that shows up during sex. Because sometimes what I see in my practice is we do a lot of good work around working through the trauma,

but then it surfaces in the bedroom when she starts to feel aroused because arousal is a trigger. Sure. Right? So that's what I mean about making sure that you're working with a qualified and well-trained person in this area. So there is definitely reason for hope. And I would say, even if you think this has not had any lasting impact on you, do consider talking to someone.

Okay. No shame there. No shame in talking to someone. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk. talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned

the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed, in-network therapists without all the runaround. You can browse without even making an account, and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience, whatever helps you feel understood. Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97, say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a L-M-A-com slash W-E-C-A-N. Is there any book that they can order? Because there's so many people who can't. I just always think about the person. People can't find...

therapists or they can't find the time or they can't find the money or their insurance doesn't pay for it. Is there like a freaking website or what do people do that can't find therapists? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a variety of books that talk about history of sexual assault and how it affects sexuality. Certainly in my book, Better Sex Through Mindfulness. I have a whole chapter on it.

Emily Nagoski's book, Come As You Are, reviews the science that I've just summarized and, again, paints this hopeful picture while at the same time empowering women to get help. Becoming clitorate is another one by Lori Mintz, which is about knowing your body and also knowing about what gets in the way of knowing your body and sexual assault is one of them. Thank you. I do recognize that to be able to access therapy is a privilege that a lot of people, probably most people, don't have either financially or geographically or that sort of thing. So thankfully, there are some really good books that are out there.

Can we just take a moment to realize that the statistic that you just shared means that one in six women in this country have their ability and their human right to access pleasure through sex robbed of them over their lifetime because of this country's unwillingness. an inability to do anything about the epidemic of sexual assaults against women. One in six women cannot access their sexual pleasure because we as a country have decided that no accountability for sexual assault is going to be the rule in this country. Yep. Yeah, it's jarring, isn't it? And we are talking about one of multiple instances of, you know, stripping away of rights towards women. So when you start adding up all of the other ways where there's lack of accountability or an outright

taking away of what women are entitled to, suddenly that one in six number starts to jump up pretty quick. And then you start to say, well, it's no wonder so many people have problems sexually. And it has nothing to do with their hormones or their biology. It's the system that they are marinated in. And I'm amazed by this. I mean, this, I'm just going to try to say this and make sense of it, but I'm amazed that more women are not just constantly enraged at their husbands. Okay. And I say this with lesbian privilege now. Okay? I understand I have lesbian privilege. But it reminds me of we did an episode with our dear friend, Dr. Yaba Blay. Okay. And she was talking to us about the ridiculousness of the word ally and how white people are always coming to her to say, what should I do? What should I do to help

you? Like what, or doing nothing while black people's rights are ignored while, while, violence is happening where they're being murdered. And her thought and her insistence was like, do whatever you'd do if your people were being killed in the streets. You wouldn't have to be taught by us. You would just know what to do. And you would do it. And so I guess I just, I think a lot about how, you know, the statistics that you just said, that one in six women have their sexual pleasures stolen from them, that our rights are being taken by the Supreme Court now that on and on and on. And then we look at our partners who are men,

and many of them are not doing shit about it. But then they want our bodies in bed. And I know it's not all that simple, but I just, I wonder why men aren't out there fighting and marching and demanding accountability for sexual predators, like their own lives depend on it. It must be because their own lives don't depend on it.

it's because, but their partner's lives depend on it. So why aren't their asses out there every day fighting for their families? And why does that not create a break between men and women, much like the break in trust between white women and black women? Right. It does. I mean, John and I've been working through some, a lot of stuff lately and, like, really digging in. And he finally told me, he said ever since November 8th, 2016, the night that Trump was elected, there has been a hardness and a meanness to you that was not there before.

Wow. The night that the leak of the overturning of Roe came out and I just walked right in our bedroom and threw my computer on the bed and said, it must be nice to be a person who's never been treated by your country as a second class. citizen and just went to bed. And he was, he was so upset because he was like, you're clumping me with them, these whole people that do, who are doing this and oppressing you. And I said, no, I'm not. I'm stating a fact that is very real and will forever divide us, which is that you don't know what it's like to be a person that your country values so little that it conscripts your organs and your future in a government mandate. You will never know that.

You will never understand that. And so my question to you is, would there be able to be less hardness in you if there were more hardness in him? Would there be a less of a divide if husbands weren't sitting around saying, well, I don't know what to do? If they were just figuring it out, if they were allowing us. if they were allowing women to process, to feel, to rage, and not have to be the ones leading the organizing,

leading all of it, because of their asses were out there doing it. Yeah. I mean, if, yeah, yes. Okay. All right. You want to see him get angry. Yes. And do something, organize.

You want to see him get angry. Right. And stop acting like they don't know how to do it. They're already running the fucking world. Do what you always do. Pretend it's a startup. Like, get organized. Or at least, yes, and at least understand that there is no compartmentalizing if you really

want intimacy with your person, which is what you're purporting to want when you ask them to lie down in bed with you. Right. If you really want intimacy, then you cannot pretend that the person that is lying next you is bringing the intimacy of the understanding that her body has been divorced from herself, which you are asking to come here. Mm-hmm. Right.

And be whole. Like, and you're either fighting for her, you're not. Right. Let's hear from our last pod squad. Hi, my name is Christine. I was calling actually for two reasons. I just listened to your episode on sexual desire and was sad to know that I had never heard drive by Melissa Farr.

even though I'm a lesbian. So I immediately listened and yep, I'm gay. So that kind of cracked me up. My second reason I'm calling is because I don't know if you ever take nominations for Pod Squader of the week, but I wanted to just give a shout out to my dear friend, Erica. She introduced me to your podcast a few months ago and it has changed my world in so many wonderful ways and I just wanted to thank her for introducing me to these conversations and just lift her up because she's an amazing person and an amazing friend and I don't know what I would

do without her. So thank you so much. Keep up the amazing community and I can't wait to keep keep listening. Have a wonderful day. Yay. Thank you, Christine. Thank you, Christine. Also, that is a good next right thing for our friend who's trying to figure out how to want to make out with her new girlfriend. Listen to drive by Melissa Farrick, okay? It's the litmus test. Dr. Brotto, Lori, Lori, thank you so much for, I've just, just personally, I just needed you this week. So thank you. I think we all needed each other this week.

And I'm in Canada. We are not immune to this. We stand beside you. and we are just as fucking freaked out as you all are as well. So we are in solidarity with you. I don't think that, I mean, what more important work could you be doing right now?

Just helping women be in their bodies, access their pleasure, demand pleasure, no matter what is revolutionary work right now. And thank you for doing it. And I know we've talked a lot about the ways that it makes it harder. How is it possible to, to be this divorce from your body by your government and still need to be present in it.

But we also just remembering that that is our birthright and that that is our active resistance is that the more they try to take over our bodies, the more we need to double down on taking ownership of them and our birthright and our pleasure and our joy in our own goddamn bodies. So this is what we're doing now. I think for the next right thing, better sex through mindfulness by Dr. Lori Brotto. It's all about the practice of mindfulness that is about non-judgmental present moment awareness of all those thoughts, all of those judgments of yourselves, all of those critiques of your body and the, am I doing it right? The good news and bad news is that we got to let

all that go. It keeps coming bound to this thing. We're going to have to feel it all or miss it all. That's right. So let's just let those thoughts come. It has been proven by the good doctor to result in increased sexual arousal, desire and pleasure, improved intensity of orgasm. And I just want to say one thing. Glennon, do you want to go on a sensate-focused date with me tonight? Oh, Jesus. Is that similar to the didactic training? Yes. So, yeah. So I, I just want to formally invite my wife on a sensate-focused date tonight. I'm saying it out loud. What do you say?

Okay, baby. Next right thing. Next right thing. She said yes. I'll do it. I'll do it. She said yes. Pod squad.

You heard it here, folks. We will report back. We'll see you next week. We love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 studios.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts. Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.