We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 109. How to Survive This Absurd Life with Samantha Irby

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

1. Sam’s life-changing strategies for (reluctantly) interacting with humans. 2. How we use humor to hide the lava of rage churning beneath our surface. 3. Sam’s friendship theory and why she doesn’t need a deep soul connection with every “lowercase f friend.” 4. Sam’s embrace of JOMO (Joy of Missing Out)–and why she genuinely believes no one else is having a better time (except maybe Abby). 5. The behind-the-scenes story of the “Fat Babe Pool Party” Shrill show–and why that episode was one of the most important things she’s ever written. About Samantha: Samantha Irby writes the "Bitches Gotta Eat" blog, and is the author of WOW, NO THANK YOU; WE ARE NEVER MEETING IN REAL LIFE; and MEATY. She has been a writer and/or co-producer for TV shows including And Just Like That, Work in Progress, Shrill, and Tuca & Bertie. IG: @bitchesgottaeat

They stopped asking directions In some places they've never been Hello, sweet world Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I think today we'll call this We Can Do Funny Things Um, because we have one of the funniest people in the universe here. Someone, the three of us love to high heavens. Yeah.

So first of all, I'll just tell you, We have Sam Irby here. I know. Laugh out loud, author. All right. Samantha Irby writes, The Bitches Gotta Eat Blog, and is the author of,

wow, no thank you. We are never meeting in real life. And needy. She has been a writer and or co-producer for TV shows, including and just like that, work in progress, Shrill,

and Tuka and Bertie. Sam Irby, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Thank you for having me on your incredible show. I am very intimidated. I'm going to do my best to sound like cool and relaxed, but I'm nervous. Okay, so let's get the cool out of the way right away. Because what I want to start with, Sam, is our friendship origin story, which is my favorite story. In the world.

Yeah. So Sam and I did an event together. At the end of the event, I loved her so much, I sent her my phone number and email. Months and months later, low so many months later. I am sitting in France at the World Cup, okay? As you do. As you do. Right.

I'm at the soccer as per usual. But it's a big soccer, okay? It's the biggest soccer. It's the biggest soccer. Like the Super Bowl of soccer, the Oscars of soccer, if you will. Yes. The Grammys. I mean, also, it's just the World Cup.

The Grammys of the soccer. The World Cup is, it's a standalone event. This is what everything else compares. So like the Tonys. Like the Tony's. Oh my God. Just go with the story. And I get a text.

Okay. And it says something like the following. Hello, Gleinen. I'm sorry to escalate our friendship on text in this way, but I'm an emergency. I'm sitting in a room full of people. And I may have told the people that I'm very good friends with. and now they are calling me on it and asking me to call you. So can you please answer your phone and act like we're good phone?

I mean. I mean, do you remember Abby sitting there being like, well, now she's our favorite person in the entire? Instant. Instant. I try to lead with honesty even when it's humiliating. I don't even. I remember it exactly. I was in the work in progress writer's room,

and someone mentioned you too. And to be cool, I was like, oh, you mean my friends? And they were like, and then I had to text you and be like, please, could you act like for your best friends so that I can impress these people

who think I'm a huge liar? And you did, and they were impressed. Of course, we were sending pictures. Like, we can't believe you couldn't come with us. Here's your extra seat. This game sucks without you. Yeah.

Yeah. I've loved you ever since that moment. Okay, so Sam, we want to start this interview with one of our favorite questions, which is this. It was a question that Rachel Elizabeth asked, and it was this. Did you have a happy childhood or are you funny? I'm funny. Take that to mean what you will. But no, no, let's say I'm very funny.

Got it. Isn't that like the best question, though? It's a really good question. And it's totally, I know it's a trope, but it's totally true. Whenever you meet anyone you think is funny, you just want to get to the point where you're like, okay, what's your damage? Like, where did this come from? Do our damages match?

Or can I learn something new about another way you can be fucked up? You know, it's like, I have my way. What's your way? How did you get here? And usually it's some like terrible trauma, but because you're talking to a funny person, they make it funny. And you're like, oh, what happened?

Who died? Who got hit by a what? and then you're like cracking up and then later it's like oh man i'm really glad that i got to know that person but also am i an asshole for laughing at all the stuff they told me in a funny way people say that to me they'll be like you know when you talk about your childhood it makes me really sad but also i really laugh is that okay and i'm like yeah please i want you to i laugh It's the only way that I'm okay is if I can, like, laugh about it. What went down that you had to get funny for?

Well, I think, so I grew up super poor, but in a, like, weird sort of poverty where I was surrounded by a lot of people who had money and parents. And when you're a kid, you don't really have any idea of who has what. You just know, like, what you don't have. for me, I had to find a way to sort of, I was going to say rationalize, but that's not the way, to like see what I lacked and not feel bad about it, right? So it's like, I don't have all of this stuff. My mom was really sick and then she went into a nursing home and then I bounced around in

like foster homes and stuff. And it's like, I, this has to be funny or it'll kill me. I think that's my philosophy to this day. It's like even in the most bleak of circumstances, I have to find, like, the joke in order to keep going. Because I am not a traditionally hopeful person, right? I'm like, oh, I guess I can make it. And so the laughter sort of keeps the, I guess I can make it going. It's so interesting because some people have, a lot of us have the like, it'll get better.

So the optimism, we get through because we tell ourselves it's going to get better. But your theory has always been, no, I can just make the next five minutes more bearable. Yes. Yeah. If I can laugh at this thing. So both my parents died when I was 18, not together, which would have been cheaper, more emotionally. more emotionally economical for me

but at my mom's funeral so like I was like 18 I didn't barely have a brain at 18 right I couldn't deal with grief but I also couldn't deal people like looking at me

because you know everyone's always looking at you you're the star of the movie and so we were at her funeral and it was like really sad and my sisters and I are sitting in the the front row, and the minister who was performing the service didn't know my mom very well, but he knew my sister because it was at her, the church she went to.

And my sister's name is Carmen. And he kept referring to my mom as Carmen. Oh, my gosh. And when I tell you, I was screaming laughing, like by the end, by like the fourth time. falling over in the pew laughing and my sisters were laughing and i was just like okay this is how we get through this right like it's terrible and we're going to have to like sort through her stuff and figure out how much debt she was in and all that stuff but to get through that moment we just were like crying laughing at this dude and like Carmen i mean i felt bad for her because like he kept

RAP, Carmen. I was like, shouldn't you climb in there, like, pointing to the camera's skin. She was just like, I'm going to beat your ass after this funeral. You have to find the one absurd thing and just, like, cling to that till you get through to a good place. Can I just say your laughter, the way you laugh makes me happy. Me too. I feel happy. Yeah.

Wow. What you just described at the funeral, this is my whole question about humor. Is humor a way to deflect and hide from reality? Or is it actually the most real reality? Because it's like everything is absurd all the time. Even the very sorrowful things are outrageously absurd. So are we like using it as a shield of armor to protect us from reality? Or is it actually the most active engagement with reality is to be like,

this shit is funny. For me, I feel like it's the most active way to interact with reality. Although I would say, okay, sometimes with humor, I use it to protect myself. And I think like that developed early, right? Because I was like, I've always been a little fat kid with buck teeth, right? And nobody is charitable to you. And so my defense mechanism was always like, let's beat them to the joke. Where I grew up, I grew up in Evanston, which is just north of Chicago, it's where Northwestern is.

I don't know if it still exists. But when I was growing up, there was this like community donation place called ESCA. And all of the fancy people would like donate their clothes there. and those of us who were not fancy would get close from there. And because I was like a sad kid, I would always be like wearing someone's like dad's golf shirt to school, right? And one day this girl was like, I think that's my dad's shirt. And I could have, you know, like in the movie version,

I would like, you know, melt into a puddle. and there would be some sort of lesson. But I was like, he has great taste and the pits still smell like him. You know, like something disgusting but funny. And she was disarmed and I didn't feel bad for being poor. We just like had that moment. And so it has served to protect me in that way. But I think as an adult, what you said about engaging with reality in,

a more real way. I think when you are always looking for the absurd thing, you can't ignore any part of what's happening, right? It's like, okay, this sucks, but I'm going to dig through all the suck to see what's funny about it. I think it makes like going through life less scary, you know? And I'm like a super anxious person. If I look in the rearview mirror and a car is coming too close, I feel like it's chasing me.

I mean, like, anxious for real. But my way of dealing with that is just to really receive all of it and then pick out the part that'll make me laugh. Yeah. We'll see how successful that continues to be as the world crumbles. But so far, so far it's worth. I have a quick follow up to that. So in the shirt situation. Yeah.

The funniness gets you through that moment, right? Because you're disarming her, you're disarming you, you're taking it away. But is the underlying... Oh, I want to die. Yeah. You still have to deal with the underlying stuff, right? Oh, yes. You know, like underneath that, it's like, I hate my mom for being poor.

I hate my body for not fitting into cute things. Like, no, under the surface, I don't know that anyone would think I was like a flighty, frivolous person. But under the surface of the funny is like, you know, molten lava of rage, right? And disappointment and hurt and all of these things that like I was born into are not my fault. Like that's always there. But if I engage with that all the time, I couldn't get out of bed, right? Like I would just be like, oh, why was I put on earth to suffer. So I'll make the jokes, but it's like fueled by the rage lava within. It's like the stereotyping of comedians in the world, right? Like how so many comedians have this

like low level rage running underneath all of their jokes. Like to me, it's their way of coping. But I also wonder for you, how are you actually like dealing with that stuff that's actually underneath it. Like, what are things that you're doing that make you? That's good. Is it always a deflection or recovering? Yeah, because you've got to look at it. You've got to present it. You got to turn it over and actually deal with it in moments, even if they're private. Yeah, what's happening with the lava? Well, sometimes the lava gets worked out in my work. Like, that's the beauty of writing about myself is that I can sit in front of a computer and sort through it. I just, well, I shouldn't say just.

For the past year, I've been going to therapy, which is interesting. Well, you could tell me. Therapy is interesting in general. So I chose a cognitive behavioral therapist. And I don't like therapy. Let's just say that. My therapist, the thing she tells me are sort of the antithesis of what I do, right? So I fuel myself off my negative thoughts.

Like my jokes come from there. My writing comes from there. My therapist is always like, let's reframe those negative thoughts. And I'm like, girl, I have. Are you going to give me a book deal? You're going to give me a book deal? I'm just signed a three book deal. Girl, I need these thoughts to be mandated.

It's so complicated because you're in, you're, Your livelihood depends on it in some ways. How do you deal with that? Are you becoming positive, Sam? No. Wait until you read. I just finished writing one and it's snarkier than ever. I have a whole chapter snarking about therapy and why I'm paying.

I'm pitting all this money to argue with the woman. I mean, we don't argue, but in my head I'm like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I'm not thinking positively about. that. So it's like a huge waste of time and I should probably find a different kind of therapy, but one of the things we're working on is boundaries and knowing when to say no. So as soon as she gets me to the point where I learn how to say no, I'm going to tell her no. Okay. So is there anything that's been helpful? Have you experienced anything in that room

that has been helpful for your lava? Yes. Okay, so one thing I like to do with her is come up with strategies. And I've come up with two life-changing, earth-shattering strategies. I'm going to give them to you. I haven't written about them. No one knows. Okay. My first one is a strategy I call I like it.

So I have found, and I'm sure you guys know too, when you say, You could say anything. Oh, man, that episode of 9-1-1, I love that show. That episode of 911 was really great. There's always going to be somebody who's like, you watch that? And it's like, you know, yes. And like people expect you to apologize for what you like. It's like strangers are like expecting you to justify your taste.

And I have found that if you just say, I like it. It completely kneecaps them, right? That's right. It's so weird. Once I started doing it, I noticed all the ways I had to get something from a strip mall. And this lady was like, oh, that's where you go. I don't have any allegiance to the strip mall.

But I don't like this lady making me feel like an asshole. So I was like, I like it. And then she was like, uh, and I was like, yeah, I like it. That strip mall is great. They just can't say anything. They're just like, so that's strategy one. Strategy two, this one is a little harder and it's more recent. But when people act like in a way that shows you that they don't like you,

telling them that you don't think they like you is, it changes everything. It gets you out of things. So I had this interaction with this person I've known for a long time. And this is a thing about like sort of being funny. My humor is always projected internally, right? Like I don't pick on people. I don't make fun of people. I don't care what anybody does.

I am the villain of all my stories. So I pick on myself. You punch in. I do. Punch in. I'm like a T-Rex, my tiny arm. punching me in my little arms, my little rock'em-sock and robot arms punching myself. And sometimes that gives people, they take license and like sort of punch me too.

And it's like, well, this is a single person game. Like you can laugh at it, but I don't want you to, you know, rag on me all the time. So there's this woman who every interaction, she was just like low-key putting me down, but also being like, ha-ha, we're friends, right? And she asked me to hang out. This was a while ago. She asked me to hang out. And I was like, oh, no, thanks.

And she was like, why? And I was like, because I don't think you like me. And she was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I just don't think you like me. And she was like, I'm surprised to hear that. And she didn't say, I do like you. She said, I'm surprised to hear that. And I was like, I bet you are.

I was like, I bet you are surprised to hear that. Because you just thought I would keep taking it and keep letting you, like, you know, piss in my face and tell me it's raining. And I just don't think you like me. And she, the way we ended it, she was just like, oh. okay. And I was like, okay, bye. Wow. It's worth all the money just for those two strategies alone. Yes. My therapist is very like, I mean, you guys know when you make things for people and you feel a duty to your audience. I want to be open to people. I want to engage with people. I want them to keeping, you know, engaging with, i.e. buying the things that I'm trying to sell.

Engaging with. But at some point, you just have to be like, okay, okay, I got to set a boundary here. I got to say no to this. I got to do whatever. It has been very helpful in, at least in, like, changing the dynamic of people who talk to me. I mean, I'm sure that there's a, deep dive that I'm missing here about like maybe the way I talk about myself should change. I'm not ready to conquer that. No, we're not there yet. You're not letting anybody else punch in and I love that. That step one is just to find ways to like deflect.

So that has been helpful. But having the rest of therapy, I don't know. We're going to keep going. But I don't want to get too fixed. I think that that's a really important thing to say for those that are listening because you don't have to like therapy to continue to go and actually get something out of it. That's really courageous to know, I don't like this, but I've gotten a couple things out of it that I feel really good about and I'm going to keep going because like maybe there will be a third thing. Or go. Like take what you need and then be like, I think you've taken me as far.

I don't want to be fixed all the way. I'm out of you. I don't want to be fixed all the way. I'm trying to picture her face if I say I don't want to be fixed all the way. And just imagining that is going to make me keep going because I don't want to see when she's like, don't worry. You're not even close. There's not an imminent threat of being fixed. Cute that you thought that.

Cute that you thought you were improving in any way. but you need to keep seeing me. Don't worry. Yes. My therapist's favorite phrase once a session, there's so much fertile ground here. So much fertile ground. So yeah.

How does that make you feel? I'm happy for her because I feel like she's very excited about all the opportunities we have to work on very many things. It's a new year. Instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home.

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Can you tell us why you wrote that and what that whole process was like for you? Yeah. So Shrill is based on Lindy West's memoir of the same name. And Lindy and I are very close friends. TV writing is so weird. my first TV job, and we're in the room, and we wanted to take the character from this place of being kind of meek and putting up with a bad dude and putting up with a job that sucked to this point where she was like, bold, well, not all the way bold.

You know, we wanted to do more than one season. So a little bit more bold and vocal and sticking up for herself. And so we were brainstorming ideas for like a big, pivotal experience she could have that would change her. Now, everybody knows, like, in real life, it takes years and years and years and years of like looking at tumblers of fat bodies, looking at, you know, it's not just an overnight kind of thing. but Hulu wasn't going to give us, you know, 700 episodes for the first season. So we had to figure out a transformative experience she could have. And so Lindy and I were talking about all of the different things we had been to that sort of changed our ideas about fatness. And I talked about there used to be this dance party for fat girls in Chicago that would meet like once a month.

and I would go to that. Clothing swaps, like lots of different websites and stuff, but there's no way to show that on TV. And Lindy had gone to one of, I think Essie Golden started this party called the Chunky Dunk. It may not have been, Essie Golden had a pool party,

and there were other pool parties. And Lindy had gone to a bunch of them. And it was like, let's do that. We have to do that. We want to see that. that showing women who look like us that they are beautiful and making this thing. So we landed on a pool party and we figured out what was going to be in the other episodes. And then when it got to the time of like assigning the showrunner assigned me the pool party episode.

And I, you know, was like, okay, all right. You know, like I was so excited. And so I, when I was writing it, I was just like, I want to see almost like a real life candy land, like just beautiful, bright. I didn't want it to be at the dingy hotel pool in like a rundown charitin or whatever, no shades in Sheridan or some like sleazy hotel. I really wanted it just to be like almost like a dream. Because we deserve that, right? So I wrote it, I turned it in, the writer's room ended, then I came back home to Michigan, and they all went to Portland to shoot. And so Lindy was like, you got to come out for your episode.

And I was a little nervous because what you imagine is rarely what the real thing turns out to be. I also did not understand like television budgets and that kind of thing. So I was like, I don't know what it's going to look like. I just hope I hope it's good. You know, I flew out to Portland. And my biggest concern, though, other than how it looked was I was like, oh, it's just going to be like Hollywood fat people. It's going to be a bunch of like size eights and tens and not size 32s and 40s.

You know what I mean? Like it just, it's so when you aren't in charge of anything, like I'm a very let go and let God kind of person. But also, I knew what it could mean if we could do it the right way, if we could do it our way. So we drive out

to this country club, and they were like, Sam, go look at the pool. So I went and looked at the pool, and, like, I almost burst into tears. The set was so beautiful. It was just, like, all these beautiful floaties and, like, the stands they set up.

Like, everything looked so, gorgeous and I was like okay okay and then Lindy was like let's go talk to the extras and they had everybody inside like the ballroom of this like beautiful country club and we go in and I walked around the corner and I just saw all of these gorgeous women of all sizes all abilities like there was a woman in a wheelchair and there are women on crutches and there are non-binary people. And it just was like so beautiful. Everyone's in bathing suits, which was so great. The costume people were designing things on site for people just so they, no one was in a utilitarian, you know, like basic bathing suit. Like everyone's in gorgeous caftans and beautiful bright color.

They had hair and makeup for everybody. And it was just like, and there were so many people. And I was like, oh, this is astonishing. Like I didn't have words. I thought what was going to happen was what happens always, as they were going to like throw, you know, three size tens in a pool and be like, there's your party. But it was really gorgeous and everyone was like so cared for.

and it was really beautiful. And the entire time, I was just sitting in the video village, just like watching the monitors. I can't believe they let us do this. Like, that was really my overall feeling was like, it felt like we were getting away with something. I cannot believe they let us do this.

And then they let us be in it. I don't know if you saw my briefed video by the pool. And I was like, okay, if I never work on another episode, of TV again, it'll be fine. Like, we really did something special. And then it came out and it just looked so gorgeous. Magic.

It's so beautiful. And everyone did such a great job. It is like one of my crowning achievements was getting to work. I have a quick follow up. Yeah. Who decides, because you say they let us do this, somebody chose to actually do it in the vision in which you wrote it. You say let go, let God, but like, somebody in that role in the TV world, it's an

important role. Yeah. Because you said they got it right. Who is that person? So Lindy was executive producer, but you know there's like many ranks. So I think Lindy was step one in being like, this got to be good. It's got to be right. And then Hulu, whoever the executives were at Hulu, whoever like greenlights the money.

So, you know, TV. crew people. They're like hardcore. They're dressed in black. They have lots of carabiners and hats. They're very serious. And in Portland, they like look like Portland like messenger bike pros. And so I was walking back to the car after the second day of shooting. This guy comes up. He is just like covered in tattoos like real gruff looking. And he's like, are you Sam Irby? And I was like, uh-oh. Yes. And he was like, I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to have worked on this episode. And I was like, okay. That's great.

This person who, I mean, I don't know his relationship to fat women, but like he, I wouldn't guess that he was like a guy who would be in touch with us and our issues. And he appreciated it. That was like the very beginning of like, oh, okay, we're due. doing a thing. It was apparent. If you think about it too long, it's like a shame that this was the first event of its kind and that it was so meaningful.

Like the hope is that we can make so many more shows and episodes like this that it's not an anomaly and we don't need to celebrate it. But it was very cool just in that moment to have him acknowledge it. And then since it's been out to have people be like that meant. much to me. It's very cool. This time of year, I am always looking for my sweaters. Luckily, Quince has all of the staple sweaters covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts

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to do. Right now, get our free business guide, demystifying AI, at netsuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at net suite.com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. Speaking of dudes and carabiners, I find this part of you very interesting, okay? You approach friendship in a very different place than a lot of people I know. You can be friends. Well, you're friends with a dude who wears a Budweiser belt buckle unironically. What? Right?

Yes. Like, so this is hard for me to do because I don't know. I, I read people out care. I guess I believe that people's belief systems as might be manifested in their belt buckles are parts of their character. Right? So I want to learn from you in this. Tell me how this works for you because you can be friends with anybody. Yeah, I can. For me, it's like, are you funny and can you take a joke, right? That's like the primary thing. It's like, can we have a laugh? Because all I'm trying to do is be laughing all the time. Like, you know, I'm not a clown, but I like, let's, let's clown around. Let's have fun. So if you can be fun and if you think I'm funny, let's go back and say, if you think I'm funny,

you're halfway through the door, right? I'm like, oh, you're delighted by something I've said. Come on in, murderer. That is totally me. If somebody laughs at a single joke, I'm like, she's besties. Yes. We are soulmates. Oh, you think I'm.

funny, let me give you my pin. You know what I mean? I have the kind of personality that just, I don't know, I can just get along with a lot of people. I think I have been fortunate enough that I haven't ever tried to be friends, someone who was so different from me, like, politically, that it's been a problem. Like, I don't have any friends who hate gay people or trans people. I don't have any friends who are like hardcore conservatives. I have a lot of like friends that I think you'd be like, what do y'all bond over? And then I'll be like, well, I watch wrestling.

And then like it explains that friendship. You're like, oh, you have a very narrow way of connecting with this person. And sometimes for me, that's all it takes is we can have a shared interest in one thing and we don't have to get into other things, you know? That is so good. Yeah. It's... Don't you wish.

No, that is exactly how I feel. I know, babe. And you have a barrier to entry that is so fucking long. That's why I asked. And I'm okay. I'm trying to learn. No, I think it's so beautiful because I can connect with somebody on one thing. And in a lot of ways, I can ignore a bunch of the other shit that I'm seeing.

And I'm like, well, I like them in this way. Yeah. And this is fun. Me too. I think. So I'm not going to guess, Glennon, why you have your rules. But I am going to, so this is kind of a guess, I'm going to say that I don't need to have, and this is not shade, an intimate, like, soul relationship with everybody.

Right? Like, I don't need to get to the depths of people if we're just, like, having a laugh or like we can talk about, you know, this one thing. Sometimes those narrow friendships like branch out and grow, but I don't go into things being like, okay, I'm going to meet this person and I'm going to hang out with them and then I want to know everything about them. Some people, you don't, you know, you don't want to know, you don't want them to know everything about you.

So I think because I don't look at everyone as like a potential like, like soul friend because I'm just like, well, this is just my buddy who I do this with, then it's easier to like let some of that other stuff fall away. I feel like you want to have deep friendships with everyone. Yes. I think that's what I'm usually. If someone's in my house watching wrestling, Sam, which wouldn't happen, but okay, I am thinking, I'm side-eyeing that person thinking, is this person one of my soulmates or not?

Right. And then when they roll their eyes at the wrong commercial, it's over. You know? It's really something. I respect that because, like, the quality of your friendships is probably really great because you like that people. Yes, everyone I'm friends with is on this podcast right now. Well, so that's the thing is, well, and I think it feels like rude to call someone an acquaintance. But that's essentially the difference, right?

It's like, we're friends because I know you inside out, you know me inside and out. our acquaintances who were just like, oh, Bob, yeah, he's a good time. We don't need to know Bob's soul. And like, but it feels rude to call Bob an acquaintance because that's just as like a rude word. So we need like a capital S friend and a lower Kemp's F friend. Yes, yes. We need different words for friends. Yes.

We need different words for friends because I don't want to say Bob's my friend because I don't want that to reflect. Right. The next thing Bob says this and then you're like, Wait, why are you friends with that? Right. Different words. Right. But don't you think it all goes back to your view of life?

Like, Sam, your view of life is I want to find the absurd. I want to experience the absurd. I want to be part of seeing, being part of this, experiencing this. And so you intersect with people who can bring that out of you or share that experience with you. Glennon's view of life is very different than that. She's like, I'm going to have a very narrow but deep experience of life. And I don't actually want to participate in any extracurriculars. Right.

I do not want any depth whatsoever. I told you that's where the lava is we could only dip a toe in there before like things get dangerous. So I try to stay near the top of the volcano where it's like smoky and sexy and fun. but I only get into the lava with a few people. And I'll tell you why. That makes perfect sense. I'm not going to put it on them. I'm going to say that I have like that fear of when people really get like down and see what's in there.

They're going to be like, oh, bye. And that's one of the hazards I think of like being a funny person, not just in life, but in my career, is that sometimes people don't think that lower level exists, and then they are surprised when they get a glimpse of it. And I'm like, all I do is write about depression. How do you think that manifests itself for real? So I think, like, having lowercase of friends, it, like, feels good to the ego.

It's good to know people. It's good to have people around. but also I'm not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit and they're not in danger of finding out any of mine and thus rejecting me on account of that darkness. It's good. It's a safety measure. So good.

I get that. I get that. Do you sometimes feel responsibility to just always be funny and always be doing the thing with other people? No, I do. I do. I do. it never bothers me until I have a problem and I talk about it to someone who wants

funny Sam and they're like, oh, just laugh it off. And I'm like, no, no, this is the part where you find out that I got to go to bed for three days about it. Sometimes it takes like a little distance. I can always laugh at things, maybe not in the moment or the next day. Eventually, I'll get there. There have been people who can't deal with the in the moment like, I'm not over this yet. And then you know that's never going to be your capital F friend, always going to be a lowercase, never call that person when you have a problem, never expect more from them than the surface that you're getting. And I think sometimes like people divide themselves into those categories for you. My friend John, who I met like on the,

internet forever ago. This was like 10 years ago maybe I had posted that I was in the hospital and we were just internet friends then and he came and visited and was the only person who visited and I was like, oh, you want to be here during this stuff? Okay. We are real friends. But I never put that pressure on anyone because I know not everybody wants that. I like to let I like to do a little sort of of my own and then let people do sort themselves into their capital F or lowercase F, you know. I love that. Speaking of capital F, friends, can we talk about your lady a little bit?

Yeah. Your lady, is it Kirsten or Kirsten? It's Kirsten. Thank you for it. You've got it right. Oh, my God. Now she's going to be your lady since you got her name right. She's going to be like.

Like Glennon said what? Bye. I thought, well, okay. I knew it was coming. Okay. So you two, didn't you meet? Did she reach out to you? She slitted to your DMs, didn't she?

She slitted to your DMs. She tweeted me. This was like back when I was still like looking at people saying things to me on Twitter who I didn't know. Now I'm not even on Twitter anymore. But she tweeted that she loved the book. And then we got into one of those, like tweet conversations.

And I'm not a private person, but I do not like to conduct a public conversation. Like if we're going to talk, she kept responding. And I was like, bitch, get into my inbox. I mean, both of them. But get into my inbox. So that was starting DMing. And then I was like, it reached a level that I was like, is this, this isn't casual anymore. But with women, at least with this woman, it was never like, oh, I want to fuck.

It was just like, I'm talking to you all the time. And I was like, okay, I'm okay, girl. You know, like, okay. And then, so we just, we graduated to talking a lot. And then at a certain point, I was like, listen, this is getting romantic. Are we, is this romantic? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, great.

And then we started sort of talking capital. That was brave of you. That was a very brave thing to say, is this getting romantic? How did you muster that up? I think. That's showing the lava. That's showing the lava. Yeah.

Well, we had been talking for so long. that I was like, I don't know. And it's hard to know when people like want you or want the book you or, you know. And so like we had talked past the point where I thought, oh, she's just like a fan. This is something else. And but it was also so much talking that I was like, I cannot be talking to a person who doesn't want to buy me dinner. I need an ROI on all of this. talking. I'm like, my thumb is getting fractured from texting this person. What are we doing?

So then that I am not brave, but in that moment I was brave and was like, what are we doing? And like I said it in a way that was like, if she was like, oh, we're just talking, it would be I could like laugh it off. And, you know, in case I had shown vulnerability too soon. So yeah, we just started talking. And then I lived in Chicago. She lived in Michigan. And she came and we went to brunch. And I brought a friend because I was like, what if this person. I know.

You did not. Sam, Sam. I know. It was so bad. She roasts me to this day. But my friend left. And then we went to coffee after the brunch. And I was like, okay, this is.

Did you know? like that day. Did you, or was it a slow burn or was it like? It was slow because she, so she was coming out of a marriage and she had two kids who were like five and seven at the time. So I certainly wasn't rushing to get into that. You're like, call me when they're 18. I still am like, call me when they're 18.

One is 16 and I'm like. Like, two more years, get your ass out of here. No, he's actually, like, really lovely. But I still am like, TikTok kids. Our real life is going to start as soon as you guys leave. So it forced us to be slow. Like, I didn't meet the kids for a year. We really took our time.

And we lived in different places. So it was good that we really took our time. And I also was really cognizant. of you got to do your relationship grieving. You got to do all. I needed her to do all of her stuff and make sure that she was on board. And it was good.

We took a long time. And then I was like, oh, your health insurance is better than mine. I'm moving to Michigan. Are you done? Are you done with your grieving? Blue Cross? Get the U-Haul.

Let's get. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed in-network therapists without all the

run around. You can browse without even making an account and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience, whatever helps you feel understood. Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97% say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit hello alma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello-a-l-m-a-com slash W-E-C-A-N. So what is your life like now? You're in Michigan. You've got the two kids. You do not consider yourself a step-parent. I don't. I consider myself an adjacent adult who can pay for things and drive to things. My step-kids are great. They're really great. They're funny.

and they're like charming. Like they're all the stuff you want. They've always been like good kids. The problem, I mean, I shouldn't even say it's a problem. It's me. I am not parental. I am not unconditional. I'm very like, oh, you didn't wash that plate?

After all the money I spent that, you know what I mean? Like the worst, the worst things that you, like, you know how like you, when you're a kid, you're like, man, when I'm a kid, you know what I'm. old on and I'm around kids, I'm going to be so cool. Like, I'm not. I have to stop myself from being like, do you know how much that chair that you're standing up on cost? And I don't say it, but I feel in my soul that I want to say it. So it's so refreshing that you're telling the truth about this. Thank you. You know, I don't know how parents do it. There was a reason I didn't have kids because Like, I knew that I would just be the worst version.

Like, I'd buy the kid everything and do all the stuff and I'm sure I would teach it to read. But I also would be like, I'm taking that iPad if you don't do exactly what I say right now. So I don't think of myself as a stepparent because I don't, I don't like tell them what to do. Parent? Yeah, I don't parent. I don't tell them what to do. I don't say you should study. this. Like, we hang out, we watch movies. Unlike their cool aunt who had sex with their mom.

That's great. Okay. One of my favorite things that you write about is your belief in not FOMO, but Jomo, not the fear of missing out, but the joy of missing out. Okay? And I feel like especially, you know, activities, you said you have finally learned. that no one else is ever having a better time than you are. Like, everything sucks and everywhere everyone is sucks, right? I would disagree. Okay. I mean, you are a person who, I mean, I know you love to be in the mix.

You love to go to stuff. You love to be there. You love to talk to people. I am in awe of a person like you, but not, I would never want to be that or you. Yes. Or you, exactly. Exactly. I love that you can do it, but never.

No, the mix is the thing that should be avoided. Yes. The mix. Yes. Okay. But it's not that it's just the joy of missing out on the event. You have taught us about the joy of missing out on having a take on fucking everything. Okay.

This is one of my favorite. So Sam's talking about or writing about the idea that she's supposed to have an opinion or take on every single thing that happens in the world. And this is one of my favorite that ever was said. One of the reasons I give a lot of disclaimers is because we give so much weight to what people say who maybe we should not be listening to. I do want to remind people, don't ask me about the news. I don't watch the news. I haven't read a history book since 1997. I am keenly aware of what I know and what I don't know.

One of the things I don't know is anything smart or important that needs to be told to other people. Let's just take a moment with that sentence. It's true. It's true. We live in this time of like racing to get your take out. And I am always considering the source. And the source is rarely a person who is smart or thoughtful or, you know what I mean? Every time I see an infographic, I'm like, who said that?

Where'd they go to school? What's their qualification? Shut the fuck up. I just don't. I am not interested in anything like regular people think they know about big things. You ate at a breakfast place that was terrible? Tell me about that. I don't want to hear their take on global politics or whatever.

Let's leave that to the experts. It's so funny. I mean, if you can prove to me that you read a book on the subject that you are pontificating on, then maybe I'll listen. I probably won't, but maybe. I'm just this thing where like because someone said it loud, we got to listen is bonkers to me. I don't know anything. I can tell you I had a Starbucks this morning that was delicious. You could believe that.

I went to high school in like 40 years ago I'm 42 however many years ago I graduated 17 someone else I'm not even smart enough to do the math

to tell you how long ago but I graduated high school your class in 98 don't listen to anything I say that I wouldn't I wouldn't attempt

to say anything smart about anything I can only tell you about my little aunt of an experience in terms of like this giant world. Well, Sam, your aunt of an experience on this giant world has helped so many of us. Just find the absurd to make the next five minutes a little bit more tolerable. That's what you do for all of us.

Thank you. What she just said, though, is so profound about consider the stores. Like that is actually really important. We take everybody's word at face value. It's like, oh, this thing was written on my Twitter feed. I say shit to you sometimes and you're like, who wrote that? And I'm like, I don't know. We're all susceptible of believing everything we hear and read.

So I love that. But I think the reverse is also equally important that in this age where everyone is called to be an individual expert on myriad things happening in the world, that it is okay to be a listener. Yes. Not everyone needs to be speaking all the time. It is okay to take your moment and learn your thing and just be a receiver as opposed to a distributor of news.

So smart. That is it. Just listen. Shut up and listen. Oh, that's our next right thing. The less sophisticated way of saying that. the fuck up. I'm late.

And with that, we can do hard things, love bugs. Like, shut the fuck up. We will see you next time. And we can do hard things. Sam Irby, thank you for this hour and thank you for who you are in the world.

Thank you for having me. What a joy. I'm glad I didn't miss out on this. Yes. Also, next right thing. Find one person to share your lava with. Oh, sister. Just find one.

We only need one. You can have friends with all the belt buckles you need, but one for the lot. I love this so much. This was so great. You guys. I love you. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. Oh, fire I came out the other side.

I chased it. desire I made sure I got was mine and I continued to believe that I'm a because we're adventurers and heart breaks a map a final destination we lack they stopped asking directions to play They've never been And to be We'll finally find Can do a heart

A brand new star I'm Sometimes things fall I continue To rule our free It took some time But I'm fine Because we're adventurers

And heart breaks Some destination We've stopped asking directions. So places they're too hard. So play for a bit. And too. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really, liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.