We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 111. Natalie Portman: How to Know When to Say YES

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

1. The moment Natalie called Abby to invite her to be part of Angel City FC–the first majority, women-owned soccer franchise. 2. How to stop people-pleasing and learn to recognize a full body YES from inside of you. 3. Why and how Natalie shows up for big projects before she’s ready or qualified. (Dude Moves). 4. The best advice Natalie’s ever received–and why women should “Gossip Well.” 5. How Natalie counters gender expectations by over practicing empathy with her son and decisiveness with her daughter. 6. What Natalie says when a man suggests a woman is “crazy” or “difficult.” About Natalie: Natalie Portman is an Academy award-winning actress (BLACK SWAN), director, author, and activist. In Summer 2022, Portman will be hitting the big screen, returning to the Marvel universe as ‘Jane Foster’ in THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER. Previously Natalie appeared in Pablo Larraín’s film, JACKIE, in which she starred as First Lady Jacqueline F. Kennedy. For the role, Portman was nominated for an Academy Award, a Golden Globe, a Screen Actors Guild Award, a BAFTA Award, and won the Critics’ Choice Award. She wrote, directed, produced, and starred in A TALE OF LOVE AND DARKNESS, which made its world premiere at the 2015 Cannes Film Festival and its North American premiere at the 2015 Toronto International Film Festival. Other past film credits include Noah Hawley’s LUCY IN THE SKY, Brady Corbet’s VOX LUX, and Alex Garland’s highly anticipated second feature, ANNIHILATION. Natalie and her producing partner Sophie Mas recently inked a first-look TV deal with Apple TV+ for their production company MounatainA. Through this deal, they are producing the Apple Original limited series LADY IN THE LAKE, which will be Natalie’s TV acting debut. Natalie’s other past production credits include the documentary EATING ANIMALS, which she executive produced and narrated. The film examines mankind’s dietary choices and is based on Jonathan Safran Foer’s memoir. In addition to her film work, Portman devotes her time to several humanitarian causes, with an emphasis on supporting women and girls. She is also a founder of National Women’s Soccer League team Angel City Football Club. In Fall 2020, Portman released her debut picture book, NATALIE PORTMAN’S FABLES, which is a New York Times’ Bestseller. Portman is a Harvard graduate with a degree in psychology and studied at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. IG: @natalieportman

Welcome, friends. Back to We Can Do Hard Things today. My boss is here. Yes, Abby's boss is here. I'm just going to call her boss. Oh, that's right. I was like, me? I know that's what I thought. Me? Obviously, I'm here. No, Natalie Portman. She's Abby's boss because she's the big boss of Angel City. She's big boss. Yeah, the soccer team. Yeah. Angel City, of which Natalie Portman is the big. boss and your little boss. I'm little boss, she's big boss. Yeah.

So big boss is here today. Natalie Portman, Natalie Portman is an Academy Award winning actress, director, author, and activist. This summer, Portman will be on the big screen, returning to the Marvel universe as Jane Foster in Thor, Love and Thunder. Natalie appeared in Jackie, in which she starred as First Lady Jacqueline F. Kennedy and was nominated for an Academy Award, a Golden Globe, a Screen Actors Guild Award, a BAFTA Award and won the Critics' Choice Award.

Portman devotes her time to several humanitarian causes with an emphasis on supporting women and girls. She is also a founder of National Women's Soccer League team, Angel City Football Club, Woot, Woot. Woot, Woot. Her book, Natalie Portman's Fables, is a New York Times bestseller. Portman is a Harvard graduate with a degree in psychology, and she studied at Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Natalie, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We wanted to start with the story about Abby's speech at Times Up and your reaction to it and how that played into your formation of Angel City. Can you just tell us that story from your perspective? Well, thank you both for having me on. I love you both so, so much. You've both added so much to my life already. so I'm so grateful to know you. I can't believe I know you as well as have you as my role models.

But I think there's an even earlier Abby influence story on Times Up that you might not even be aware of, was that your Wolfpack speech at Barnard was circulated among all the women very early on and everyone started calling us like each other Wolfpack. within our group in Times Up, that was probably why they wanted you to speak in the first place at our conference. That was already so influential and impressive, I think, just as just a way of thinking of other women and a new way of operating with other women. I think after having been socialized for so long to see competition and different kinds of modeling of behavior between women, a way that we could compete together instead of against each other. It was pretty exciting.

And then when I heard you speak, and we all heard you speak at the Times Up conference that year, it was mind-blowing to hear your experiences as virtuoso star best athlete in your field in the world and your experiences when you retired of being uncertain about your future and how different that was for your male counterparts. and to understand that this very central cultural field athletics, I guess in general, could be so, have such different valuing of male and female players really just just blew my mind and really started me and a lot of other people thinking. So anyway, thank you again for that. I said it before and I'll keep saying it forever, but it really changed, change so many

of the way many of us have looked at the world. Well, and then two years ago, I get this random IG direct message from Natalie Portman, folks. She says, can I call you? And I'm like, yes, Natalie Portman, here's my number. And so then you call me and then you told me two years ago, and this must have been a year-ish later since the Times Up event. And you tell me that you're starting Angel City FC in Los Angeles and you asked me to be a part of the investor ownership group. And I just was floored. I was so beyond.

And I just think it's so important for people to understand, though that this is the first majority women own soccer franchise for girls, obviously, and women. You also started it for boys. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, well, my son. who's 11 now was an incredible influence and inspiration and wanting to create this. He got so into the Women's World Cup. I think he was around 7 or 8. And he had the experience of being, I guess he was like 5 or 6 at the men's World Cup when France won.

My husband's French. So it was like the greatest thing that could ever happen to a French child. Yes. And then a couple years later, the year. U.S. women win the women's World Cup. And, I mean, it was waking up in the middle of the night, all hours. And I had to confront my own bias because the first time I saw him put on a women's game, I was like, oh, God, he's going to realize it's a women's game because it was all on,

I think it was like Fubo or something that has like all the soccer games. And it just says like France versus Germany. And I was like, he's not going to realize that it's women. He's going to realize it's women. he's going to turn it off. And he was like, amazing. The best players in the world totally, of course, did not matter at all to him. And I was like, oh, this is my weird stuff.

The way I grew up that I'm putting onto it. And of course he does it. He loves soccer. He wants to see the best players in the world. If it's a bad game, he'll turn it off. If it's a men's game or a women's game. If it's a great game, he will watch it like, you know, in the most participatory, like, heart-filled way.

And that's when I was like, oh, every kid should have the opportunity to see players of all genders be virtuosic, you know, what a dream to get to identify with, idolize people from all backgrounds, from all genders, and made it maybe like, oh, this needs more amplification. Like why does the World Cup get this kind of amplification and then national women's league games don't get the same kind of amplification? Yeah, and that teaches little boys not to respect girls in insidious ways. So when they watch people who are women achieve it things that they love, it helps early on even the playing field of how we perceive each other. Well, I think also we know that as girls growing up, we've been asked to get excited by and identify with and idolize male athletes. And that seems totally possible.

Like I could grow up thinking that, you know, Michael Jordan was great. And I was never like, I can't do that because we're not the same gender. So why not have the converse be true? It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. You said that girls know their power. We need the boys to know it. It's like we're not trying to empower girls so much as we're trying to stop the world from getting in the way of girls' power. Yes. Well put. Just yes. That's good. Before we move on from the soccer, I just do have to say that that day that you called Aunt Abby, I have never in the history of our marriage sat with you so stunned. I don't know. if you know how much it meant personally because she went through the ranks, all of the men,

that's their dream afterwards, is to own a team. That's the path. Like, that's what you do. But the women didn't even allow themselves to dare that. So to have that be part of her life, I mean, it's part of the reason we moved to L.A. It has been, like, kind of heart shifting and life shifting for Abby and the other women. Well, it made me feel a little bit like I didn't dream big enough in some ways. Because like here, Natalie Portman shows up with this like whole idea bubble that completely opened my mind to the rest of my life. So it's not just this.

It's like, wait, I think I've been thinking. And by the way, I'm the dreamer of all dreamers. Maybe I'm thinking a little bit too small about my life. Maybe there are other places. So I just think that sometimes it's really important that we show up for. for each other. And what people don't understand is the way that Natalie wants to operate this majority-owned women's team is she wants to put women at the center. And you offered ownership stakes to this team to the other women that have built women's soccer in the United States.

Nobody does that. You ask some of me and my former teammates. There's 11 or 12 of us that are that are part owners of Angel City FC because you wanted to. to pay respect in some ways to these women who actually helped build women's soccer to where it is. There's just you are your big boss. It's good stuff, Natalie. You're big boss. Thank you for saying that. But I mean, it's really built on you and your teammates' shoulders. I mean, you all started it. Your passion and dedication to it grew the sport, made it as exciting as it is today, started the fight for women's fair pay in the field. it's all of your work and dedication.

We're like latecomers who are like, oh, they all did all this really awesome stuff. Let's be part of this, you know. It's also, I think, taking the experts who have built it, like your leadership and your knowledge and expertise as our guiding light. And I think it's, you know, it's been a big learning experience for all of us in so many different ways. rapid in some ways and slow in other ways. But definitely, you know, we rely on you and on current players, the players for the team also. I think there's so much leadership and knowledge that we're gaining. And that's the center of it all.

It just also goes to show women in leadership positions and how they choose to start franchises or businesses. They don't forget how they got there. To me, that is an elemental part of starting the culture of something that can last for hopefully hundreds of years, right? So I'm just so grateful to you, big boss. It's competing together what you just said. Exactly. I love that competing together instead of competing with each other.

Natalie, this podcast is called We Can Do Hard Things. What is hard for you in your life right now? Everything. Perfect. Is that vague enough? Wow. I find everything so challenging. But I try to pretend that it's easy.

I mean, sort of, Abby, what you were saying about, I didn't even think that dream was possible. I feel like maybe my heroic flaw is that, like, I don't realize how big stuff is that I take on sometimes or how unprepared or unknowledgeable I am,

which I'm grateful for because I think I do try, things that are too hard for me and that I'm not really capable of and then I have to kind of like meet the challenge or you know fail and get over failing quickly um but yeah I'm learning that it's something that's unusual to me that I'm like oh sure I'm basically a ballerina and then I get there I'm like oh shit I don't know anything about this and I'm like oh got to figure this out somehow you know, got to figure out how to fake it. Similarly, like, yeah, let's do a soccer team. And then I'm like, oh, I don't know anything about anything.

I'm making mistakes on every front. I guess that's part of it is like not knowing that it's going to be okay if you fail. Unless you're like a heart surgeon, then not okay. Yes. Not okay to fail. And then also, yeah, maybe a little ignorance is bliss for taking on hard things. Yeah. I love that. So you just, you have the idea of just showing up and saying yes before you've decided you're completely qualified, which is like is a huge. That's behaving like a man. Yeah.

Dude moves. Dude moves. Dude moves. Obsessed. Okay. You don't have to have qualifications. No. That's right. You're figuring out. Basically ballerina. I know. Some things. Those are big boss moves. Yes, that's right. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge. You can see what's clicking and where a little extra reinforcement could help.

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focus on making yourself attractive and pleasing other people as opposed to focusing on what you want. So how did you break out of that cage of people pleasing or how do you still? Because I assume it's a daily thing, right? Is it? Oh, yeah. Okay. And it's actually been something really amazing that Kara, Nortman, has one of my co-founders at Angel City has influenced a lot because she introduced me to an executive coach because that's one of those roles that I took on that I was so unprepared for. And one of the big things that I work on with hers, she actually talks kind of about personality types and my type is very, very much about caring a lot about pleasing people. And it was first of all interesting for me to understand that everyone operates in different ways.

and that might not be like a universal motivating factor for everybody. I think a lot of it has to be like remembering and relearning how to recognize your own desires because when you're pleasing, it's very hard to distinguish between what other people want. Like you get really good at reading other people's minds. Yes. And that's one thing, which the coach that I work with, her name is Diana. says, remember, that's also your superpower so that you don't just hate it about yourself. Like, you're really good at knowing what other people want. And that's an asset and use it and speak up

about it when you know that. And then also paying attention and she calls it a full body yes. She has great meditations about it. Her organization is called Conscious Leadership. And I highly recommend it. They have some publicly available meditations about thinking about something that you have a whole body yes too and feeling it in your body and what that feels like and then thinking about something that was a whole body no and feeling what that feels like in your body and kind of naming like where that is in your body and recognizing that and then also something that's in the middle you know and understanding what that feels like in your body and then going for things that our whole body yes is it's a physical experience and practicing

what's the physical experience of, yes, I completely want this. I know I completely do not want this. And those in-between situations, which I think is kind of the biggest thing when you are very aware of other people's desires for you. Have you been able to use that outside of your executive rule? Like, have you been able to use that in your personal, the whole full body thing? I think it's almost more impersonal. I've been an executive life.

Executive, I'm like, I don't know what anyone wants for me. It's a full body, I don't know. I'm like, full body, no idea. Full body is? Out of body. Exactly. Out of body. With personal, I have more experience.

I have, you know, 40 years experience of what everyone wants for me and understanding what everyone wants me to do. I think it's so important, though, because I think when we try to think about what we want or what we don't want or what we think about something or we always go to our mind to try. to figure it out, but what we have discovered again and again is that it's never there. We do that full body thing, but we call it what feels warm or what feels cold or what feels big or what feels like clinchy.

Those are very expert words. No, but it's great to put it in any kind of physical terms because also that's objective experience. Yes. Whereas thoughts and feelings are so subjective and confusing, but like physical experiences, feels good, doesn't feel good. I have a friend who's a writer. She calls it like she wants to be more like her dog.

That's where she's like, person's nice. I go towards person that nice. Go back away. Yes. It really is relying on your instincts. The body knows. That's right. The body doesn't let.

And it's not like a dog is like, oh, but I want that person to think I'm sweet. Right. Or I don't want to hurt that person's feeling. Yes. Right. Also, dogs will bite. And I think if we would bite a little bit more, people, would treat us better.

That's right. What was your last full body yes? Last full body, yes. Hmm, good question. I was just away from my kids a couple days working. And when I saw them, it was just so like, all I wanted to do was hug them. And that was very full, like, oh my gosh, there was just pure, pure desire. Yeah.

ever since I heard what Aeronovsky told you during Black Swan, I've been saying it to myself over and over. Do you know what I'm referring to? I'm wondering if it's the like do one for yourself. Yes. Is that way? Yes. Can you tell that story? Because I've been saying it to myself and may tattoo it on my body.

Oh, I'm so happy. It's a great direction. I try and remind myself to when I'm working especially. But, you know, when you're shooting something, you do so many takes. and you'll do the same thing over and over. And the director, probably similar to, like, coach and athletics, like, gives you feedback and then you try and alter based on the feedback to please them. And Darren would do that.

And then at the end, when he felt he got it, he was like, now do one for yourself. And that was always the best one. And it was wild because he would always do it when he felt like he got what he wanted. And then you just were completely free. And it was, and then he was saying, like, those are the takes he ended up using. And it was really revolutionary for me to be able to, for the first time, really think about just for my own being. When you talk about desire and separating that from all the things in our head that we think we're supposed to want or want to do to please other people, what do you think about desire right now for you?

do you desire most in your life? Besides such an old lady answer. Besides sleep. Yeah, I know. That's where we all went. The only thing I could think of. I was like, I really want to sleep. Fair enough.

Yeah, I hate that that's my answer. I think I desire nature a lot too right now. I feel like that's like a post-pandemic, nature and community. I think I really miss community from being so isolated and really miss nature from or not miss it, but like realize how important it is, I think, when you're inside a lot. What is your community? Is that friendship? Are you talking about friendship?

Are you talking about families that you hang out with? What does community look like for you? We're trying to figure that out for ourselves, so I'm actually curious about it. No, I think it's the toughest. I think it's the toughest thing. I think it's like a very American predicament because we are so like, oh, you move where your career takes you. It's very removed from the village model of you live where your parents lived and where your grandparents lived. And then everyone's in the same area.

And you have like a structure and a ritual of, you know, people eat dinner together this day of the week. And people go to church this day of the week and there's this community game. And there are places that are still like that. But I think a lot of us are, and especially in big cities, are really removed from that. And then it's really complicated to find community. And then pandemic obviously exacerbated that. And then it does become around school or kids or kids sports. So like you end up hanging out with the people that you spend the most time with,

which becomes a lot definitely when you have kids. kids like around that, which is amazing. You meet a whole new group of people. It becomes like you have several communities and not one and there's people from work and there's the people from your kids and there's the people from your family and there's that happen to be living in the same city as you, you know, aren't necessarily like your immediate family. And it's, it's wild. And it's definitely another puzzle. I don't know. What are your words of wisdom around building community. Well, I think it's a good idea in general. She's a body yes to it. No, I haven't been though my whole life because I've been, I got sober and then my whole life was kids. Which was your

community? That was what I could handle. Right. Yes. But now the kids are getting older, Natalie. So she's going, oh shit. I'm like, oh shit. What? I'm going to have to look at Abby forever. Right. So we have been practicing. We've been practicing actually. making friends and being in community, which means you have to call people back and you have to hang out with them. Remember things. And it's kind of beautiful. It's starting to make me feel very tethered like a village.

And so I don't know. I recommend it, but maybe not until the kids are older. Yeah. So I just got into this community of my family. And one of the things that I'm kind of obsessed with is trying to be, I don't know, the best version of myself parent-wise. and I'm curious because I've been reading a little bit about your theory on over practice and under practice with kids. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Love it, by the way. Oh, tell me more. What's my theory? So let me tell you. Natalie, here's your theory. Okay? Yes. Your theory is that.

And I'm going to say in my own words. This might not be your theory. This is what I want your theory to be. Great. I'll make it my theory because I want to play. is you. Okay. So the idea that our culture does, of course, teach some gender certain things, overteaches them certain things and overteaches another gender, certain things. So what

you talked about was that with your little boy, you might overpractice empathy and connection and sensitivity, not because it's more important for boys to be that than girls, but because the culture has already handled the other side. for them. Am I getting this right so far? Yes. Okay. Yes.

You're making it much more eloquent than I've ever said it. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But yes, I've talked about it in relation to my children's book that I wrote where I made more characters female, not more like it's balanced in the book, but that I had noticed that so many of the children's book I was reading were largely male characters. And so I felt that girls have over-practiced identifying with male characters, similar to what we're talking about with athletic heroes that girls have the practice of identifying and also some of this pleasing sensitivity that I talk about in myself,

I think has to do with that over-practice of getting into the mind of a male you know, protagonist and being like, what do they want? And so in fiction, whether it's books or movies or TV shows, I feel like I'm so used to like getting into the mind of the male and that I think that the underrepresentation of female characters

in those fictional scenarios where we do empathize and relate to characters and particularly for kids that boys could use more practice at getting into the female mind and that what a different world it would be if boys were walking around imagining what the females around them were desiring the same way that we are raised to be like, how do they want me to act? How did they want me to dress? How did they want me to look? What shape would they like my body to be? That like we're so hyper aware. And hopefully also that girls by entering female minds practicing female minds practicing female minds practicing like puts them more into themselves as well and more into their own desire. I mean, I guess again, this person

personal challenge that I work through myself, I hope to change those patterns that I feel like I grew up with for my kids, which I'm sure you have your own that you focus on with yours. I love it. It is. It's a difference just when it's asking your little boy, how do you think they're feeling? And asking your little girl, how do you feel? It's just practicing. Yeah, well, my Wolfpack book, how oftentimes I'll be.

on stage and being asked about it. And they'll say, this is a women's leadership book. And I'm like, it's actually just a leadership book. In fact, if you read it, the note to the reader invites men into the concepts that are written about it, though it's written from a woman's perspective, it also is just a leadership book. And we have to invite men and boys into the mindsets of the perspective and the lens through all genders, not just women, right? We're talking about non-binary people too. So I love that. I've had men come up to me after speeches again and again and say, I love this. Who is the male version of this? I'm like, wow. Like, I've had to sit and listen and read so many books by men. And I just find myself in it. Right? I don't say, damn it, where's the woman version? So fascinating. This is why I love the practice term, because they're coming by it, honestly. They've never practiced. It's the,

that the way that we grew up having to practice the fact that he actually means everyone. Right. It actually just means he. But we have had to practice so much reading as if that represents us. But they've never had to practice that way ever. And so I love that idea. I've never heard it put that way that visualizing a woman as a main character is not only liberating to a little girl to see herself as a main character.

It's a boy practicing a world in which. a woman is not just a supporting character. Yes. No, I think that's such a great way. That's such a great way of putting it because it is in all the languages that are gendered, you know, how you make plural is always male. And so it is true that male starts to represent everyone. If you have to go to a generic term in the previous version of they, like that we use

in non-binary language now that in other languages, is that's kind of been the default setting that male was nonspecific gender. And that's really interesting, just like one of those things of how language affects the way you think. What would it be if the female could be universalized? Exactly. Like the female being is really exciting to think about. Well, we say fireman.

What's the big deal? We can all find ourselves in fireman. Yeah. Okay. If we can all find ourselves in fireman, And why don't we just for a century call them all fire women? Right. Because then certainly all the men can find themselves in fire women.

It's really good. And then everyone's like, well, sure as hell, we can't do that. Right. Exactly. It's so interesting to see how our own conditioning is like, oh, we should find ourselves in that. Yeah. Then shouldn't the reverse be true. But in the language piece, Natalie, they've done studies where certain words, like the word bridge in certain languages are feminine and certain language are

masculine. In the countries where they're masculine, people report bridges as being strong and fortifying. In the languages where they are feminine, they are seen as precarious and beautiful. Wow. And so it, but it's a bridge. It's a bridge of both. It's just one's feminine and one's masculine. So it's just fascinating. Yeah.

It's always so magical too when you like see that words like that, like inanimate objects are gendered in other languages and you're like what led the you know table to being female in this country and male in another it's like so so wild it's like a whole it's whole own subject yeah a whole pod another podcast yeah we'll do that one next week yeah that's right yeah this time of year I am always looking for my sweaters luckily quince has all of the staple sweater covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. I can't tell you how much I'm loving my quince cashmere sweater in this gorgeous oatmeal color. It's become the

thing I grab almost every day. It's held up beautifully. It still feels soft and it honestly looks way more expensive than it is. You know how frugal I am. And I've started picking up a few quince pieces for home too. They have travel bags and sheets. Their sheets are awesome. 10 out of 10. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com slash hard things for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash hard things to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hard things. So sister and I were talking about this the other night in reference to you because you said something about how when you were kind of led to become a leader through times up or a million things, that you kind of had to give up likeability privilege, just how we call it. Like sister always says, okay, as a woman, you can either be liked or you can lead.

So pick one. Do you think that that's true? do you think that as a woman, leadership does mean giving away likeability? Or control. It's a great question. It's a good question. Yeah. And that's a good distinction too.

You definitely can't control anything, maybe ever, which is also part of the thing I'm trying to learn. But yeah, I think it's true. I think you certainly have to not care as much about likability. It is just inevitable that basically being specific about anything makes you not likable to somebody. And when you care about pleasing people and making people like you, then you want to just be universal, which is watery. And so, yeah, so to take a stand on anything is absolutely going to make some people go, nope, not you, not into you. And that is a big step to take.

I mean, it's those far braver things humans have done in life. But it was definitely a hurdle to get over. I like Big Boss. Yeah, I did too. I like Big Boss and I cannot lie. I was waiting. Of course you were. It took us 40 minutes, but we got there.

And I just, I do want to point out that I feel like with men, there is more of, if you're going to take a stand, be specific, people aren't going to like you. But I think with women, it almost. doesn't even matter what you're specific about. Because the thing that is unlikable is the leadership at all. Yeah. Is the having a strong opinion? Is the believing in yourself? Is the wanting, is being ambitious or powerful or saying, I have something that needs to be said. So it almost doesn't even matter what you're saying. It's that you're saying it that bumps up on people's unlikeable. There's just something about her. You know? I just related.

so much to that. When you talk about Times Up, you gave two really awesome pieces of advice, which I loved so much. One was Gossip Well. Can you talk to us about what it means to gossip well? I think that something I learned is, and I'm still learning too, is the kind of language that we've used about other women that we've participated in, that I've participated in, I will like take responsibility of either either saying it myself or repeating what other people say and things about women that like, and I mean, it can be about men too. I mean, gossip is, can be toxic about anyone about all genders. But about women, there's certainly certain words that we use.

And also something I realized was that sometimes people were telling me gossip as a way of tarnishing someone's reputation after they had done something to them, which is a crazy revelation for me too. It was like, oh, this director I worked with who I really liked and was very nice to me told me this bad thing about another actress. And I repeated that information. And then I realized he did something bad to that actress. And it's trying to diminish her power so that he doesn't get in trouble by saying that she's difficult or crazy or whatever. And that was like 10 years after the fact. But I think that to be hyper aware of those words of crazy, of difficult, of bitchy, of, you know, the awful words that people use about women. And then use the constructive parts of gossip.

there are constructive parts. If it is sharing information, like, that is a dangerous person. Be careful. That is constructive, like women talking to each other. There are constructive forms of gossip. This is a great person. You should go there. That person's really funny.

That person's really great to work with. That person stay away, careful. There's constructive and there's destructive. I'm against drama-inducing gossip, like workplace, drama stuff. I'm always like there's no room for that. But I don't write it off completely because I do think there's the village really helpful to survival aspect of office that should not be thrown out. Yes. I like that because like even in the locker room, sometimes we just all needed to vent just to vent to get the shit out.

And then we can move on. And obviously there's there's many more aggressive and violent things that can happen on movie sets. and in locker rooms and whatnot that I'm not talking about that specifically, but like sometimes it's really good to just get a good vent session out. Because it also, that's like really community bonding and building. And also you could probably use a nicer term for it, but what movements haven't grown out of some sort of gossip of me being like, I'm having a bad experience. I'm also having a bad experience. I'm also having a bad experience. Wait, we're all having it. that that means I'm validated that this is a larger thing.

It's not me. We're all experiencing this and we can do something together about it. Like there's a form of gossip that's at the beginning of it. Maybe we can identify it more as like sharing and maybe call gossip like the nasty stuff. But I think it's like important to differentiate those different forms of sharing negative experience that like maybe it's important to share negative experience that's happened to you directly versus someone you don't know. that you heard about. We have to just kind of be aware and question ourselves when we're in situations where gossip arises. Like, is this constructive or destructive? Is this something I personally experienced? Well, even gossip is a gendered word. They would never say guys gossip. When men are telling each other

things, it's sharing information. And when women are telling each other things, it's gossip. Even that word is gendered. Yes. It's also brave to share what you went through because when, the stamp on women who have bad experiences with people in power is that they're crazy or difficult, then you saying, I've had a bad experience with this person in power is a way of saying, I reject the notion that I am crazy and difficult. I'm naming this is what it is. And then other people can come out and be like, maybe I'm not crazy and difficult. Maybe my bad experience was because of the person who gave me the bad experience and not because of me.

Absolutely. And also I think that like the journalist, who have dealt with this found that people were most willing to talk when they realized that they were protecting other people by talking and that you understand that you being silent about your experience is actually endangering people and like somehow complicit in a scenario. So again, I think that we have to be really careful about discouraging gossip completely because there is a form of it that can be extremely necessary. and it could be very silencing.

And like you said, there is a gender. I'm trying to remember where I read this, but it was saying that gossip was like the most free part of a woman's life because it's where she can speak the truth. I read that same article, Natalie. I read that same article. I think it's probably the New York Times or something. I read.

Yeah. I was like because I like remember underlying it. I'm like, where was this? Mm-hmm. But Natalie does have a specific sentence we can say, which actually makes me, I've used twice now. and gives me goosebumps and makes me feel feelings. So she said, stop the rhetoric that a woman is crazy or difficult.

If a man says to you that a woman is crazy or difficult, ask him, what bad thing did you do to her? I don't know why that makes me so emotional. What bad thing did you do to her? Just the alignment right away. This show is. brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found

Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed in-network therapists without all the runaround. You can browse without even making an account and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience, whatever helps you feel understood. Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97% say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello-a-l-m-a-com slash W-E-C-A-N. So you are reprising Jane Foster in Thor, Love and Thunder, which I'm hoping is my epitaph.

You came back to the role in part because you said you were excited to play a character who, quote, is as weak as she is strong. I love that so much. Can you tell us what it means to be as weak as you are strong? I feel like we should all be striving for that. I was so excited, of course, to come back and work with Chris and Tessa again. And then to work with Tica, who's the director for the first time, he's extraordinary and just like knows how to make everything silly and profound at the same time, which is the best. but I feel like there's this kind of misperception that a feminist character has to be kick-ass and like she's just strong and can win in the fight. But I don't relate to that unless she can also like fall apart.

That's just not my experience. Like I see a woman who's just like can just get everything done and just cool and collected and capable at all times as like, really awesome and not me at all. So I am not relatable. So yeah, it was really fun to get to explore a human who gets thrown into a superhero role. And it's like, wait a minute. I guess I'm a ballerina. Exactly.

Exactly. It was really fun to do. And especially with like the humor that Taiga and Chris and Tessa bring to it is joy. We're going to switch gears a little bit right now and ask you some random questions. I want to know Natalie Portman, what is the best advice you've ever received that you still rely upon? So I have a cousin, my cousin, Daniela, who is like the closest person to me and is so wise. and once when I was like in the worst place in my life, she said to me, I don't worry about you.

And it was like the best thing ever. It made me feel so good. She was like, you're going to be fine. I'm not worried. And it was like so calming for me. And I've used it back to her now because when someone knows you really well, it's almost the best thing you can say. It's like it's actually really stressful when someone

it's like, I'm here for you. And you're like, you're like, what are we going to do? But you're concerned that this is going to be bad. You know, when someone's like, I know you and I'm not worried. I was like, oh, yeah. You're going to be fine is what we all kind of say. That's the standard.

Like, I'm not worried about you. There's something different about that that really like hit me in a way that makes me. It's like a more. certain you're going to be fine. Yes. And it's like I know you well enough not to be worried. I know your character. I know who you are. I'm reflecting back to you that you are the kind person who's going to be okay. Yes. It's like that thing you always say, Glennon. I see your thing and that's big, but I see you and you're bigger. Yeah. Like it's going to be all right. Yeah. I'm going to use that with my kids, except I'll be like, I'm not worried about you. Everything's fine. Everything's fine.

Yes. Exactly. Okay. I'm worried about everything. Yeah. Okay. So when things get wild and you get stressed out or you get sad or you get, I have a list that I have my healthy coping strategies and my unhealthy coping strategies. Guess which list is longer. Yeah. So I know like my unhealthy ones are booze and binging and, you know, the things that took me down and made me abandon myself and made everything shit. And then I have healthier coping strategies, which are usually.

very simple things that I can do around my house. So do you know off the bat what's an unhealthy coping strategy for you and what's a healthy coping strategy for you? Yeah. Probably unhealthy is work, like working too much. Um, like if we're doing one. Um, healthy. Oh my God. I'm such a dork. I watch a lot of like food television when I'm stressed out and it really calms me down. So like my husband will come home and he'll be like, it's been a bad day because I'm like watching like Iron Chef. And he's like, what happened, you know? It like calms my like everything calms down and I stop spiraling about whatever I'm spiraling about. I feel really relaxed.

It's really, really dorky. I love it, though. It's like a show about nourishing yourself, right? Like you're watching people making things that nourish people. And it also, the stakes are low. The stakes are low. TV is so scary. I mean, except Iron Chef.

But most of the time, the worst thing that's going to happen is this soup's going to get ruined. Yes. Right? And they like ramp it up so it feels stressful with like music and effects. But really it's like, no, everyone's going to eat something good at the end of the day. Yes. Like, it's all good. That's a good one.

If it makes you feel better, Natalie, that would have been on my healthy list. No, that is her healthy. That is her healthy. I thought you were saying that was your unhealthy. No, no, that's my healthy. The unhealthy is like the workaholism. Oh, good. I mean, I love working when it's like because I'm just really stoked about being there.

But it's because I'm like, I need to accomplish this, this and that or whatever. Then I think it's like an unhealthy. Okay. Yeah, that makes me feel better. What do you do for fun? Besides Iron Chef. I mean, it's a lot of Iron Chef and Top Chef and Master Chef and Master Chef Jr. I'm like, my husband's like, you're watching Master Chef Jr.

By yourself. Code Red. Code Red. It's children competing in cooking. But I love that they're so talented. It's so moving. I cried. I love being outside.

I love doing anything outside. So I go hiking with friends. Two of my best friends from high school, we just, we went on like a big hiking trip in Bryce and Zion. And that was like amazing, dreamy, like, best time of my life. The hoodoos. Did you see the hoodoos? Oh my gosh.

It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. That's probably like my. favorite thing to do is just like be with friends in that kind of environment or my kids. That's the best. So yeah, that's my biggest. Can we just have a moment of appreciation for the fact that you just said your two best friends from high school?

So you have managed the course of your wildly prolific life to keep best friends from high school. That's incredible. I guess so. I mean, what I think is more remarkable is that like I met such awesome people that long ago and in that space. I think it's so rare that you can meet anyone at that age that you're still like super interested in whatever 30 years later. It's a gift. But yeah, but also I feel like it's kind of natural to, I don't know, when you have a lot of people wanting to be around you for reasons that are like impure to like whole. hold on tight as you can to the people you've known the longest to be like, stick by me and

keep me honest, you know, tell me, tell me what's up. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Well, I just, I don't know, thank you for just always being so present and always bringing your full self to every interaction you're in, like, whether it's like a phone call about Angel City or an hour long podcast or a new movie, the way you are with your friends and your babies. We adore you. Thank you for you. feeling is mutual. Thank you so much. It's so, so great to talk to you and I hope you get to hang soon.

And Thor is out tomorrow. So everyone will see it. It's so exciting. And you go watch Master Chef with your babies and we'll talk soon. And the rest of you... Watch it. It's so relaxing.

Okay. We will. We're going to watch it. Thanks for being here, Big Boss. We love you, Big Boss. You Big Bosses. Thank you. And we love you Pod Squad.

We'll see you next time. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.