We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 136. CARE-FRONTATIONS: Three Keys for Giving & Receiving Criticism

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

1. What happens inside us when we receive criticism–and how our brains ensure we’re always in the right (even when we’re not). 2. The three-ingredient recipe for a positive, productive “care-frontation” exchange. 3. The single biggest relationship killer (it’s not conflict) – and how conflict can bring you closer. 4. Amanda navigates a “care-frontation” with her son’s friend’s family – and Abby reevaluates her past relationship with criticism.

And because I'm a... Oh yeah, me. Okay, we've just been sitting here staring at each other. Hi! I'm gonna see you. I usually kick this off. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We are thrilled and delighted.

Okay. God bless you and keep you and all the rest of you too. Are here. Do you know that people say God bless you because in the olden days, when people sneezed, they thought that evil spirits got into your body during the sneeze. And so people would say, God bless you to make sure that the evil spirits didn't settle. It's just such horseshit. Really?

I thought it was because your heart stopped when you sneezed, which now that I just said that out loud, I'm embarrassed I said it. Because that can't be true. You know, sometimes when I say things out loud, I do wonder if I should check them first because my dad used to tell me a lot of things that aren't true just to embarrass me later. like one time he told me that spam was called spam because it was used only in the Spanish American War. Oh, like the meat? Yeah, and I did say that. The spiced ham.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't know. I said that during a Jeopardy game during college. And everyone was like, you are an idiot. And I was like, oh, no, that's true. It's the Spanish American War. So anyway, what's up? How's everybody doing? I'm good.

I've had a really, I've had a morning. You have thrown your back out a touch. Yes. Pod Squad. Glennon has been laid up a little bit. And I'm good. I'm just running around. Sister, how are you?

I'm doing great. I'm excited about what we're talking about today. What are we talking about today? We're talking about criticism feedback. What happens to us when we get it. What we might want to pay attention to, what we might want to throw directly away. In terms of crisis. Wonderful.

Yes. And so we decided to talk about this because of a situation that happened this summer. So John, my husband grew up going to this place in Connecticut in the summertime for a couple weeks. His parents are New England people. So they wanted to be closer to their families for a couple weeks. And it is this little coast town. There's nothing fancy about it. In fact, it is the little.

little beach looks directly across to a power plant. A giant, that's the view. A giant ass smoking power plant, which my mother-in-law used to pray to in thankfulness for why they could afford their little cottage and in thankfulness that it kept away anyone who was snobby or self-important. Nice. The point is, it's not like what people are looking for on postcards, but we love it. And so we spend some time there every summer.

It's like 500 houses, but probably like 200 families because everybody's aunt and grandparent and cousin is there. So it's this little bitty town. And we love it because it's like 15 blocks. And so it feels like a place for the kids to have independence. They can just go on their bikes in the morning and they don't come back until its time. And it feels like a good place to practice making mistakes. so that they can make them on a smaller level instead of a bigger one.

Yeah. Anyway, we're up there. And Bobby has this very close friend there, and I'm going to call him Charlie. They play all the time. I should back up and say Bobby was a kid who, when he was four, playing basketball at the park, would try to, like, get people to be thrown out of the game for double dribbling. Like he's always been a very just intense, this is the way things should be done type of boy, unless it's something I tell him. Right. Do you remember when his father, he comes by this naturally, do you remember when his father, John busted into the kitchen?

The first time he met. The first time he met Tish because Tish was cheating at shoots and ladders. Tish was three. Yeah. Okay. And he called her out and refused. Came into the kitchen, told me that Tish was cheating. John is a fucking hero. Yeah. Cheating is not okay. Never okay, especially at three.

Okay. The first time he met her and she was three and he came in just exaspery. Yes. Well, first she came in and was like, John won't play right. And then he comes in and he's like, tish won't play right. Yeah. So anyway, yes, he comes by this very naturally. Okay.

I love it. Bobby is now 10, right? He should be picking up on a few more social clues. So should have his 40-year-old. Father, but that's fine. So he is playing with Charlie. He loves him, but he starts to be kind of mean, my son. If he thought something was a strike, he and Charlie wanted it to be a ball, he would like persevereate on it and say it was. Why would you say that? You're wrong. You know, kind of just it started to make Charlie feel bad. Like Bobby was being mean to him. Exactly. So this thing happened over the summer where the dad came to John and was like, I need to talk to you about something. This is not going well with the boys. And Bobby is being mean to Charlie and we need to work it out. And so John tells me, I write to the parents. We talk to Bobby. Our family goes over and talks to his whole family. We come up with a plan. We come up with like work. that Charlie can use if Bobby's slipping into it. And to me, it was just so wonderful. I felt so

thankful to be given that because I feel like at home, that wouldn't have happened. I feel like at home, it would have been like those parents would have said, don't play with Bobby anymore. Just ignore him. Just or they would have said something to other people. Well, you know, that kid, we don't want them hanging out. And so it just felt like such a great example of being able to deliver something with the believing in being able to invest in that it could be better. And I just received it as such an investment in us. I felt so grateful for it. And it really turned out really well. And I feel like we got closer for it. And so I just thought it would be interesting to talk about like when it works and when it doesn't work and how to do that. Can I ask you follow up questions? Like what do you think is the difference between the community that you spend a few weeks during the summer at and maybe your home community where in your mind it wouldn't have work? Like what what do you think made it successful?

I think because we are all invested in that being able to be there for a long time. It's a small place. And so if you are deciding to write someone off, you're writing them off for the next 10 years. It reminds me of our Dr. Becky Good Inside situation. They came to us with this idea of like, we know that Bobby is good inside and he is just acting in this way that isn't working. And we actually want this to work. First of all, the small town, big town is huge here. Because it's like when you're in a huge city, in a small town, you don't flick off somebody in your car because you're going to run into them at the grocery store in an hour.

In a big city, you're like, whatever, I'm never going to see you again. I mean, granted, it's probably better. It's like next. Thank you next. Yeah. Yeah, everybody's disposable. There's no accountability. Because in a small town, it's not just that, oh, we want to like be together. We don't want to write anyone off. It's like, no, no, no. If I don't figure this out, it's going to make my life harder too. Yeah, we're stuck. To avoid this person. It's it's the stuckness that forces relationship because you have to go through the hard stuff together so you don't make your life in that small place of living hell. what I'm interested in is the way you're saying it now is different than what you said the dad said to John. Okay, what did I say? Because now it's been a long time. So you said that he said Bobby's being mean to my kid. And it's so like, but the way you're saying it now made it sound a lot more open and we know Bobby's a good kid.

It sounds like it was presented differently than just like Bobby's being mean. Oh, that's funny. So I have interpreted it differently in light of. how it eventually went down then it was presented. Yeah. Okay. So that's interesting because that's the way I remembered it. There's a progression here. This is good. So yes, Bobby is being me and to Charlie.

And so how did John receive it and how did John relay that information to you? Was John pissed? Like was he defensive? Were you pissed? Were you defensive? So he said, thank you. And he was frustrated with Bobby.

And I think he felt like icky. but he was grateful. And then I felt icky just at the big pictureness of it. You know, I was like, oh God,

we're being called out by somebody and for being mean especially. Oh, very, very off brand for your family.

Exactly. Exactly. This is devastating to our case. But then I felt seriously so grateful because I, it's so clear

to me that this is something that had it happened anywhere else, we wouldn't have had this opportunity. This opportunity to hear it from people who genuinely like us, hear it from people who genuinely want Bobby and Charlie to be friends, and who are willing to make this investment because it was a risk. Like they didn't know us at well. Total risk. And one of the reasons why you were probably open to hearing this or you weren't immediately defensive too is that you recognize. some truth in what the people were saying. I've had both experiences where somebody said something

to me about my kid and I was like, uh-huh. I've seen that. Like that sounds right. That tracks. Yeah. And then I've also had the experience where I was like, no, that's about something else. Let's just note that one of the elements here was what was being reported to you rang true to you about your kid. Yeah. You're exactly right. It was not a shock to me. We suck at a lot of things as a family for for real to. But we have really tried to be intentional about being open-eyed to all of our imperfections and challenges. And I've been like this a bunch in my life. When you're like holding relentlessly to this myth of perfection, when someone else gives you feedback, it feels like a threat to your identity. And so you have to reject it. That's fragility. That's parental fragility. No,

my kid's perfect. So I want to, I so badly want to be a good parent and have a good kid that I will not do what it takes to be a good parent with a good kid. I will not stay open to feedback. Because the way that we see our kids, you know, I've read recently like the more you stare at something, the less you see it. So we have these stories about our kids and we filter out every single bit of evidence that doesn't fit our story. And it applies to us too. It applies to us too. I mean, the same exact thing. if I am like desperately trying to be perfect and someone calls me out, that is devastating to me. Whereas if I know my flaws, like I actually used to, when my friends would joke with me about like, oh, Doyle's never going to text you back, I used to feel like a sting and a hurt by that because I didn't like being that. I didn't like being labeled as that. But then when I came to actually just understand that that is true about me, I receive that kind of joking with me as actually feeling good because it feels like I am a person who's known and loved, even if that's true. That's sweet. Yeah.

But that took like an acceptance by me to be like, you're exactly right. I am a person who is never going to tell you back. And actually, in the science of this stuff, it's really interesting because I think we come by it really honestly that a number. initial kind of, you know, freak out when we get criticized. And neuroscience shows that our brains go out of their way to make sure that we always feel like we're in the right, even when we're not. So when you receive criticism, your brain tries to protect you from it. And it receives that as a threat to your place in the order of things, how people perceive you. And so if you think about the hierarchy of needs, you would think that would fall into self-esteem.

esteem, but it actually falls into the much more essential needs of a human, which is safety and belonging. Sure. So when someone tells you that, it hits to the core of you. That is the immediate, like, and that's important for people because it feels narcissistic to feel like, why am I so upset about this criticism? Because I have to be liked by everyone. Why do I have to be liked by everyone? But actually, what's happening is much deeper. What's happening to you is not a desperate need to be liked necessarily. It's a desperate need to be safe. So you're, very security in the order of things is being threatened, which is why it's like straight to fetal position.

It's good. Exactly. I recognize myself so much in that even more. I think this is fascinating because it's one place, Glennon, where I think maybe we cannot trust ourselves. We're always saying like trust your instincts, trust yourself, trust your knowing. But actually what happens to our brains when we receive criticism is that first of all, we're shocked by it and we're in opposition to it. So that's what you just said. That is not correct. That's

wrong. Second, we don't even recall it accurately. We do not remember accurately what has been presented to us. And then we never forget it. Is this? This is why whenever we get in an argument with criticism, Abby, it's like half the thing is like, but you said this. And you're like, I didn't say that. And I'm like, but you said this. It's because we're adding the story to what was said. we don't even remember it. Yeah. Exactly. Our brains don't remember or retain our mistakes as a feature of our inner landscape.

So when we get a criticism, it comes out of left field for us. So it's shocking, A. And then B, when you hear information that conflicts with yourself image, your instinct is to change the information as opposed to changing yourself. So your brain is going to work really hard to manipulate what that information is. means that information really isn't that. It's really not about my thing. It's really about this person's thing. Our brains have totally separate wiring for when you receive something that you that you view as negative or bad, then something that's positive. So the circuits handle negative information way more thoroughly than positive information. Our brains are wired to do that.

And so almost everyone remembers negative things more strongly and in more detail than positive things. Of course. That's like, oh my God, every time 40,000 people can say something nice and one person says something negative. And that's the only thing that sinks in. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally

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But when we were talking about this, we got into the conversation of like, is it even necessary? Why are we so concerned with criticizing other people? Are we supposed to be doing that? Well, let's go back then to a sister situation and talk it through because that was a situation that was necessary. They're parenting. There's these two kids in their backyard. They're seeing this dynamic and they're like, these kids need help with this dynamic, right? So they go to John.

John goes to you. Then what happens next? Then I immediately write to both of them and thank them for giving us the feedback and to tell them what we've already done, which was to talk to Bobby about it and two separate conversations where he explained that his impact was not consistent with his intent and what all of that meant. And then actual things that he could say and do differently. And then I asked them if we could come over to their house. And our family came over and met with their family. And we talked openly about it. Bobby apologized to Charlie for the way that he acted. And then we just talked about strategies. Like I said, this isn't going to be changed overnight. This is a habit. And I don't expect it to. And so let's

think of like some things that if you're comfortable, you can say to Bobby when he starts to do it. And then Bobby can know that if you're over at this house and you start to act that way, you will be asked to leave because I'm asking those parents to ask you to leave when you do that. And if you're at our house, you can expect. You will also be asked to leave. You will also be asked to leave. How did Bobby receive all of this? Because I think that the way you approach criticism, there's two parts.

There's the telling and then the receiving. And both are so crucial to having it be successful. You're right, because I could have been defensive and I could have been like, oh, they're so sensitive. what the hell, like kids are kids, you know. But I think truly that criticism has, it's a weird word. So I think it's about more like whether you choose to invest in something or whether you don't. Because super easily in my head when I heard that, I was like, these people could have chosen not to trust us and not to invest in us. They could have told their kid not to hang out with our kid.

They really could have. It would have been awkward because it's a small town, but 100% could have done it. And I think if you are choosing to invest in something, the way that that feedback works the best is when the person who receives it knows that the person giving it has the person's best interests in mind and is invested in that person. So when I got that, I knew, okay, Their investment in us and these boys' relationship is actually a huge best interest of me and my son. Because if this kid is feeling like this, there's probably a lot of kids who my son is friends with who he doesn't want to make feel this way. Right. And I don't want him to wake up in five years and have no friends because we have failed to coach him out of something that isn't working for him and his friendships. What an incredible opportunity for somebody to learn like this, you know? I do want to say one thing, though, for all the people who are listening who have not had this evolved of experiences with other families. I'm going to tell you a very quick story and I'm going to say it quickly.

And it will not go path further than this podcast. When one of my children was younger, that child was a sensitive little being. And there was a kid at this child's school who was being mean to the kid. So let's say I am, I am the parent, the other parent in your scenario. I was Charlie's parent. Yeah. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Right, no.

Glennon was Charlie's parent. There was a kid that was being awful to my kid. Okay. And it just kind of got reported to me in a few different ways and then it continued. And I was less evolved than I am now. Okay, because I want everyone to know. I was a teacher. I understand that all kids are good inside, okay?

I understand this. But something happens to me when it's my kid that I lose all of my intelligence. Yep. Okay? I just lose it. I have no sense in me. Okay. What happened, honey?

Well, Abby. It's your brain's wiring. Yes. My kid is not safe. Like, it's right. I did let myself marinate, okay, in all the negative ways that no one would say this healthy. You know, all the horrible things that this family's awful, this family's awful. I did the opposite of what Charlie's mom did.

Okay. And then I did march my child over to these people's home, knocked on the door, the mother answered. And I'm just going to tell you that the conversation got so heated that this woman had to kick me off her front porch. Like she had to kick me off her effing property with my sensitive son who I was trying to save from meanness and bullying, walked behind his mother so that we could mean bully another mother and a child. And I still, I've never told, I mean, besides Abby, I don't think anybody. Everybody knows that story.

Chase does. Yeah. Chase knows that story. Which is why he hasn't told you anything. So anyway, I just want to give a shout out to things that happened when we were less evolved. Also a shout out to that feeling of like, I know all the things, but I also, that, like, ferocious, want to throw down.

Mama bear comes out. But that's a difference. Like, that I think is important because what you just described, you weren't looking to invest in that. If we take the positive, what is positive and helpful feedback quiz that I just said about best interest in, you have the person's best interests in mind, and you're investing in it. And you bringing the thing to them is a form of investing in either that person, a project that you're doing, the relationship. Neither of those things were true. No. You didn't give one shit about that family. No. And you had no interested in investing. What you were looking for was,

justice and accountability. Justice and accountability. Fists of fury. I wanted them to say, we are wrong, you are right. We will have a town square in which we will. A truth and justice reconciliation. That's right. I mean, truly, that must have been my end goal.

And it was accountability, justice, and punishment. Right. Which is not the same as feedback. Feedback is very different. I think that's actually a good point. If you're looking for that, that's awesome in some circumstances. Go get it. But that is not what this is. So I think it's helpful to ask yourself, like if I'm looking to give someone feedback, are those two things true? And if not, maybe don't give it to them. Because I think people when they receive it, they know whether those two things are true. That's right. And if they've done work on themselves enough to, A, not be totally shocked or B, even if they are shocked, look at as an opportunity and a trust in them that they're going to handle it, right, then I think it's helpful. So this is like criticism in the form of parenting. And I know that it gets a little bit more dicey and interesting when we talk about relationships.

Like partnerships? Yeah, because I think that I know for me, criticism and business, Like I can take criticism when it when it feels professional all day long. Yes. Okay. Cool. But when it comes to like my most important relationships, I go into a wicked like shame spiral. Death trap. I don't know what the fuck that's about.

But like that's the one thing that I've done the most work on in our marriage. Yeah. What is the difference between like the parenting criticisms? Or community, because sisters talking about community criticism. Community criticisms versus relational. It's like anything, if you have a neighbor and you need to work something out with your neighbor, if there's a teacher at school where you actually need to work something out, whatever it is in your life other than your most intimate relationships, I think that best interest and investment situation works. But yeah, so criticism and relationships, the way that they talk about it,

First of all, the Gottman research where this researching couple can see a married relationship and observe it for just a few minutes. And with a 90% accuracy rate, they can predict whether the couple will remain married or be divorced. So amazing. They have these four categories that are called the four horsemen that if they observe any of these four things, that's what predicts it. And one of them is criticism. And the way that they talk about criticism is that criticism goes to the heart of someone's character. So it isn't that I never call you out on things. It's that when I do, I come to it with like, this is what your behavior means about you as a person, it's your character.

Whereas if you just have a complaint, that's totally different. And a complaint is an emotional bid. I have an emotional ask of you through this complaint. I would like you to be home early because I really want us to be able to have dinner together. I want more time with you. I'm craving the connection. Whereas criticism is you only think of yourself. You never prioritize our family.

You're all about you. Therefore, you're always late. So it really has to do with similar to the community one. I'd like to give an example of like what you're saying is if we have a criticism, which maybe we'd call more of a care frontation. Yes, with a community member, right? Because criticism feels like you're doing something that is wrong when really all that's subjective.

A care confrontation is like we together are having this issue that like I feel like we both want to work out. It could be you. It could be me. It could be the connection between us. But there's like this thing that I bet we both would want to figure out. And then it's assuming goodness. Okay, I think that that, like when I think about the situation with that I just told you about,

there was no assumed goodness. I was like, they are bad, they are bad. And that was because of my thinking over time, you know, when you perseverate on something, you perseverate on something. And then so for me, it's not just about saying the thing. Like you go to the teacher that you're having a problem with and you're like, I know that you are working your ass off and that you are trying to meet the needs of all of these kids. and my kid just has this thing and I, you actually have to believe it a bit. Yeah.

Because if you say it and they say the wrong thing and you actually are believing bad intentions, you switch over like that. Well, it's what you said in untamed about the cup of coffee. Like when you get bumped, whatever's inside is going to spill out. Exactly. And so when you're dealing with someone and it's sensitive as a situation as a care of confrontation, you're going to get bumped. So you got to be careful of what you have in your cup.

Exactly. And if what you have in your cup is actual disdain and contempt, even if you're trying to say the right things, it's going to come out. So all I'm flagging is for me, prior to the care frontation, there actually has to be some, like, thinking about the other person's perspective. Yeah. Because that's not completely always natural to me. It actually has to be intentionally done.

to be able to bring compassion to the situation. And that's why I think, you know, to be totally realistic, this actual magic, it's not forcing every situation into this magic formula. It's saying if you don't have this magic formula of actually believing in it's in the other person's best interests, believing that the other person is good, wanting to invest in it, your situation getting better together, then that's awesome. If you don't have that, it's just something else. In that case, you're doing a different thing. You're going to try to procure change. You're going to go to the principal instead of the teacher because you have a situation. You're going to go to the parent and say, there's new boundaries

now. My child can only play with your child if this other person isn't present. You're doing a different thing. I feel like part of our problem is that we're not actually honest about our intentions. And we bring something to someone and they don't handle it the way we think they should handle it precisely because the ingredients of the formula weren't there. Nice. So, of course they're not going to handle it. That's true. If you're a business owner who knows nothing about AI and feels really out of the loop,

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So what we're doing right now is we're saying there are situations that are ripe for a care frontation. Yes. Okay. And those situations are situations in which you have a problem with another human being, whatever that problem is. You have gotten to a place where you assume that that other person is good and doing their best and yet this problem persists. And you have decided that you trust yourself and this other person and the scenario enough. And you want something in the future. There's a future. That's right. You want something.

Yeah, you're invested in it. You're willing to invest the time, energy, ego displacement, all of the things that this care frontation requires. And you think the care confrontation is in the best interest of the other person, too. Yes. Ah, okay. It isn't just getting something for yourself. in those three things, I think are, that is a recipe for really good exchanges. Okay.

If you're on the receiving end of that, expect yourself to be, feel totally icky and shitty. Expect yourself to need a minute to even entertain that this might be true because your brain is not predisposed to receiving this kind of information. And then ask yourself these kinds of questions like, what would happen if this person hadn't brought this to me? And possibly think of it as how would it have been easier for this person to not bring this hard thing to me? And what would that have meant for me? Because I think often, like, we miss what a gift that is. because the person doesn't have to do that. They could handle it all on their own.

And when they're handling it all on their own, guess what? It's not usually working out in your best interest. Yeah. When they invite you into that process, it's a trust. It is a building on the relationship. And so I think if you can kind of consider that, this person hasn't brought me a problem. This person has invited me into a better outcome for myself and my people.

goal. And the way the person brings a criticism or feedback, I think that that will show what their intentions are, right? If somebody comes in like you did, Glennon, that person knows immediately, oh, there's no intention for possible future relationship here. So that's going to be dealt with a different and it's going to feel different. You're going to receive it different. And so I bet that this dad who showed up with John, and I bet you he was kind and honest and truth. full in a way. Not full of contempt. Yeah.

And I think that the way you deliver hard criticisms can show what your future intentions are. So let's talk about that because I agree. Like when you were talking about that, it made me think of Dr. Yaba Blay and how she told me once that if she's offering feedback, that should be such a freaking gift. Because she only offers feedback. to people that she cares about and that she trusts to take it in because otherwise, why would you waste your time? Unless you're looking for justice and accountability, which is a totally different thing. Right. Right. But if you are actually bringing something where you're opening

yourself up like that and you're saying, this hurt me, then that is a risk that that deliverer is making to, they're placing a trust in you. Yes. They're placing themselves vulnerable. in you. Making themselves vulnerable. Okay. So we have the prerequisites for care frontation. If we don't have those things, then we're not going into the care frontation. But there's not just the prerequisites, but there's the language, the script,

what you actually say in a care frontation. So can we just talk about that for a minute? Like what kinds of things make it easier for the other person to, to, feel the vulnerability instead of the accusation? Well, there's whole separate kind of scripts if this is like a business situation. There's a tremendous data that even using just this sentence when you're delivering business feedback saying, I am giving you this feedback because I have very high expectations and I know you can reach them.

Just that in a business. setting, the data shows that your feedback is received like exponentially better than if it's given in another way. And when you... Because that's saying you're good. You're good at your job. The reason I'm coming to you is because you're good at this, not because you're bad at this. Right. That's the difference in criticism. It's like, I know that you are so good that this thing feels out of character instead of this is part of your character. Which, by the way, goes exactly to the relationship issue. If those people had come to me and said, your child is mean, that would have been very, very different than we have an issue in which we love these boys'

friendship. And Bobby is being mean in this way and how can we work on it? So it's exactly the same thing. It's exactly the same thing in relationships. Everything works out the same way. If I, I could easily not bring my concerns about my relationship to my partner. And that would be less conflict. But when I bring my issues to my partner, it's because I am invested in a better outcome. I want better for us. I believe that they're good. And I believe that they can do better.

Right. And that we deserve better. So you start with, if you are actually assuming good intention, that the other person's good and that the thing you're bringing to them is out of character and not matched with their character, that's what you're going to start with. You're going to start with some personal version of what you said about work. Right. Right. You're going to be talking about the actual behavior, about how you feel when the actual behavior, when the actual behavior, you feel when the actual behavior. happens because of what you want. You're going to, you are going to phrase it as an emotional bid. This, I want a deeper relationship with you.

I want this time with you because I love you. And so let's deal with this behavior. Yes, instead of you're selfish and you don't love this family. And that's why you're never spending time with me. Right. And I think that everything goes back to this idea that, that family could have not brought that thing to us and written Bobby Off and our relationship would have been over. Same thing with supervisors who just are like, it's not worth it. I'm not

investing in that person and we'll just like weed them out in a couple years. And same with relationships. Intimate relationships don't die because of conflict. Actually, conflict has nothing to do with predicting whether relationships will last. You can be super high conflict and last, super low conflict and last. They die because of a lack of connection. And so the bringing the feedback to someone is a desire to connect on something to make it better,

whether you're in a relationship, whether you're in a community, whether you're in a business situation. Yeah. This show is sponsored by Midi Health. Perimenopause and menopause aren't personality flaws or phases. They're medical transitions. And yet nearly three out of four women who actively seek help are sent home with nothing.

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more criticism and feedback to this marriage more than I've ever brought to any relationship in my life. And I think what I got wrong before is like I just wanted people to be themselves. And through being themselves and it not matching with what my needs were and me not voicing those needs, that's when the connection ended up falling apart and I wouldn't be able to build a relationship. I actually believe this. Most people don't like conflict.

You and you, sister, you guys are conflict pro. Yes, I feel like conflict is connection. But I do think that there's a way to like get into the heart of what criticism really is. Because at the end of the day, I struggle with this. criticism feels like such a big word. Conflict feels like such a big word. I'm like, I feel I'm sweating right now just like talking about it. And like my point is, is like, who, and I think this is important in relationships,

who made the person who's bringing the conflict judge and jury? Yeah, this is so interesting to me too. Like, why is it that person to be right in this scenario or whatever it is? Well, exactly. Well, that is precisely why the stance at which you come to it is important. Let's give an example. Should we give an example? Yeah.

So let me just explain to you why Abby just said that because we went on a long walk yesterday and we were talking about criticism and relational stuff. Care of confrontation and community. Got it. I really do. Like I understand what you're saying and all of that. makes sense, the intention, the script, all of it. To me, the marital or relational romantic care frontation is a little bit more complicated or deeper or something because the community

carefrontation feels like it's easy. It's like this behavior that's not working for us. But what we've discovered, low so many times, in our romantic relationship, is that a lot of the criticism we have for each other really does come down to identity and who the other person is. For example, I have a discomfort that wells up in me every time Abby's bigness manifests in a social situation. So what I mean by that is Abby is really comfortable with being like the center of attention. Or louder. louder or being the one who's talking the most or like reflecting attention to her. That makes me

very uncomfortable. Okay. Why? Well, we know from all of our other pods that I must have learned at a young age that the way we stay safe is we don't draw too much attention, that it's selfish, that it's, you know, what makes us unsafe. So sometimes when we're in a social situation, my criticism of Abby would be, can you please give someone else a chance to talk? Can you please just not take up so much space? Can you please just not be so loud? But actually, and P.S., I did that for three years. That's a tough time. Okay? Like, how'd that work out for you? Well, tough times. Not great. Not great. What I'm trying to say is, in a marriage, I actually do feel like families have an diagram and you do have to give everyone talk time and all the

things. But basically, what I'm saying is, I have a problem and you're the problem. And so you have to change as opposed to saying, I have a problem. Why do I feel those things? Marriage is such a mirror in a way that I'm not sure that every community situation is, where it's like, wait, I could criticize you to death. for the rest of your life about being the center of things and being having this bigness. Or I could be like, Glennon, why is it so important to you that you and Abby are like small in situations? What is this bringing up in me? Like instead of being critical, I could be really curious.

And then that curiosity and inward could heal me in some way. Like, does criticism, is it an effort to not have to heal ourselves? I think in some ways. I think in some ways it is. And I also think in other ways what I've told you and what my dreams are for my best self, for my best and highest self. And one of my insecurities is that I talk too much. I have a need for attention.

It's an insecurity of mine because I get my more. Because she's been bothering you about it for three years. I've worked hard on that. Yeah, but I get my worthiness with attention. And that's been something I'm trying to actually work on. So she's breathing into a little bit of what I'm wanting to see as my best self. And I think this is an and both situation where you're right. This is bringing up something inside of you that you're thinking maybe this is actually my problem.

So this is where I get a little bit confused with feedback and criticism is like, who made the critic, the judge here. Yeah, she's like, what made you the person who decides who gets to talk and who has talk time? I think that that is a great point because I think it actually, it isn't just related to couples. I think that you've identified what is a prerequisite before you have any kind of carefrontation. I mean, what you are talking about right now reminds me exactly of what we talked about in episode 128, where we're talking about untethered soul with the idea of instead of saying that thing is bothering me, we ask ourselves, what part of me is being bothered by this?

Yes. So we really, really need to do that in any situation before we make it somebody else's problem. In that situation with Charlie and Bobby, if it had been something where, okay, Bobby was just, winning at the baseball games more. And that was really upsetting to Charlie. And that was really upsetting to Charlie's parents. They would have to ask what part of themselves is being bothered by this. And that would have been ego.

And that would not have been Bobby and our family's problem. Similarly, with what you're saying, you have to ask yourself what part of yourself is bothered by this. And if you determine that that's something that you need to work. on internally and not bring to your partner, or if it's something that you are struggling with so much that you have to present in a way that just says, listen, I know I have an issue with this. I am still trying to work out what part of it is mine to process through and what part of it might be something that we need to work on together and what part of it might be your

issue. But I just want to say, I know you can sense my anxiety around this. I feel it too. And I just want to call that out because I want to share what I'm going through with you. I don't want you to receive my anxiety as a criticism of you. Yeah. That's good. Because I think in the end, when we talked about this on our walk, like, I think in the end, as we grow older, like, I can see myself as an 80-year-old woman and still talking and like enjoying and inserting as much like energy and fun into life as I can. And Glennon being 80 also and looking over at me and just kind of like shrugging her shoulders going, that's who she is. That's who she's always been, you know? That's what we want to get to. Exactly. And we should talk to Melody Beattie about this when we have a

conversation with her, it could also be a codependency issue. The fact that you are uncomfortable with the way Abby's being and the fact that you believe that Abby is a reflection of you. Oh, totally. You need to change that as opposed to being like, that's my wife. You might love it about her. You might think it's annoying. I think it's a little bit annoying. But that's a different person than me. And by the way, that's a different person than me. And by the way, what I also want to say is it's unbelievable. And maybe this will be relatable to anyone on the Pod Squad. Because that is what her doing that is what makes our family beautiful and fun. Yes. It's like none of my kids would want it to change. Craig wouldn't want it to change. It's the beauty of our family. Right. If it were up to me,

what? Abby and I would just sit silently waiting for someone else to talk all the time. It would be a nightmare. You're literally a killjoy. I'm a kill joy. A literal kill joy. I will Kill it. I will edit it out to a palatable level. Because it's this beautiful thing that's like, wait, it's just that what we come back to again and again, that the thing that we are attracted to that we fall in love with each other about, that's what I wanted. That beautiful bigness and exuberance and like light and all of that, I chose it because I needed it and I need it for myself. It's like what Dr. Becky said. Instead of saying, why are you acting like that, instead of me trying to smush it in Abby,

what I should be saying is how do I grow this in need in real life? I mean, everyone's like, please, God, how would you talk more? But what I'm talking about in real life, not on the podcast? As long as I'm not stifling the kids in any way, that was an important criticism that you brought early on to our marriage. I was such a talker and I'm better now. But I would like interrupt our children. Nobody talked for two years.

Nobody else talked for two years. I would interrupt them. And she eventually had to sit me down and say, listen, like, our dinner time is so important for our kids to, like, tell us about themselves and their lives. So there's also really important beauty that can come out of that. And I think that the way that you approach it, I have some trauma around abandonment. And so any criticism, no matter what it is, she has to come to me with, okay, I don't want to leave you. I want to spend the rest of my life with you. and I need to talk to you about this really hard thing.

Which is a perfect segue into our attachment episodes that we're going to be doing because all of that is about attachment styles. And so criticism fits perfectly in that. I can't wait to continue the discussion there because what we need and demand and the way we react to being called out or called in has everything to do with attachment. So hold that thought, Abby. We'll get there. That makes sense. Good job. Okay. So do we want to hear from our pod squatter of the week?

I sure do. I haven't had one for a while and I miss them. I miss the pod squad. Hi, my name is Susan. And as I finished the podcast, your daughter's song started playing. And I was looking in the mirror, getting ready for bed, putting my breathing strip on my nose to help me breathe better while I sleep and smiling at that and I just began moving. I was once a dancer and I just began moving with my robe and looking at myself in the mirror with pride instead of criticism and appreciation

instead of shame. So I just had a beautiful moment of truly seeing myself for the beautiful self that I am and no one there that I needed to please or get appreciated by, I was just there to appreciate my true self. So thank you. Let's just end with that. Let's just all hope for one moment of pride instead of criticism and appreciation instead of shame. Thank you, Susan. We love you. We've got no criticism for you. We think you're effing perfect. See you next time. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. A final destiny

Stop asking directions To places they've never And to be loved, we need to be known A brand new star Things fall I continue The free look sometime But I'm finally fun

Those were adventurers and heart and heart breaks on a final destiny. They've stopped asking directions to places they've never been to be to play and do hard things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.