We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 145. Geena Davis: How to Thelma & Louise Your Life

Episode Date: November 1, 2022

1. The politeness curse – and how it almost killed Geena.   2. Geena’s brilliant “Oops…” strategy to get folks to act decent.   3. Abby thanks Geena for the monumental impact of A League of Their Own on her life. 4. The story behind the iconic ending of Thelma and Louise. 5. The hilarious story of why Geena’s mom chose her name – setting her on an unlikely feminist path.   CW: Brief mention of sexual assault About Geena:  Geena Davis is a two-time Academy Award winning actor and has appeared in roles that became cultural landmarks including Muriel Pritchett in The Accidental Tourist, Thelma in Thelma & Louise, and Dottie Hinson in A League of Their Own. She is also a world-class athlete, a member of the genius society Mensa, and is now recognized for her advocacy for women and girls as Founder and Chair of the Emmy-winning non-profit Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, which engages film and television creators to dramatically increase the percentage of female characters, and reduce gender stereotyping, in media made for children. Her memoir, DYING OF POLITENESS, is available now.  TW: @GeenaDavisOrg IG: @geenadavisorg

I chase desire. I made sure I got what's mine. Welcome to a thrilling episode of We Can Do Hard Things. With us today is Gina Davis. Who is a two-time Academy Award-winning actor and has appeared in roles that became cultural landmarks, including Muriel Pritchett in The Accidental Tourist, Thelma in Thelma and Louise and Doddy Hinson. What?

Abby's idol in a league of their own. She is also a world-class athlete, a member of the Genius Society, Mensa, and is now recognized for her advocacy for women and girls as founder and chair of the Emmy-winning nonprofit Gina Davis Institute on Gender and Media, which engages film and television creators to dramatically increase the percentage of female characters and reduce gender stereotyping in media made for children. Her memoir, Dying of Politeness, is available now. Gina Davis, thank you for doing so many hard things.

Thank you, Glenn. Wow, I sound good on paper, no, no. Yes, you do. You do. You do. And speaking of sounding, I just have to start with this, I just think it's so amazing that your mom spelled your name, G-E-E-N-A, and you thought that was because

she just wanted you to be special and unique. But tell me why your mother told you she spelled it that way instead of G-I-N-A. I thought it was because she didn't know how to spell how you actually spelled Gina, and that she thought she was making up the name. Right. And oh, so cute that she didn't know how to spell it. So when I was visiting one time, and she had been reading like little interviews or clippings about me, and she said, people seem to love your name, the way your name is spelled.

I said, I know, yeah, I just tell them you didn't know how to spell it. And she said, oh, no, no, no, I know exactly how to spell it. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. I, you know, I know very well how you actually spell it. I said, really? Then why did you spell it that way? And she said, well, I didn't want people to think it was China. As in the China.

So my entire adorable identity is based on fear of the vagina. It's so good. It's too perfect for work. I mean, it's our feminist icon warrior, her name originates from fear of vaginas. It's so good. It's the best. It's the best. So can we start by talking about your parents a little bit?

Because we already did. We already told a really good one, a doozy. But I love, you say you were raised by New England parents who taught you that being polite was the most important thing in the world. Perhaps, Gina, even more important than life itself. Can you tell us the story about being eight years old and driving with your Uncle Jack? Yes, yes. So my parents and I were in a car driven by my great Uncle Jack, who was 99 at the time. And his wife is, my aunt, aunt is in the front seat.

passenger side. So we're driving home at night from a restaurant and it's quite a deserted Tulane Street, no room on the sides. And every once in a while he just veer into the oncoming lane and then we'll veer back again and then veer back in the incoming lane and back. But, you know, there haven't been any cars coming, but, you know, it was alarming. And my parents didn't say anything. And they didn't say anything. I think it was my My mom, I was right behind Uncle Jack, and she picked me up and put me in the middle between them because maybe I would die less when we had a head on collision. Less dying.

Not realizing a horse that I would now have a street shot through the windshield. So we're continuing like that. And now he veers into the oncoming lane, you know, straddling the yellow line. But now there's a car coming. And there's nowhere for either side to pull over. It's like a little narrow street. And nobody, my parents don't say anything. And it's going to happen.

We're going to have a head on collision with this car. Oh, my God. In seconds, they don't say anything. And finally, at the last instant, Aunt Marion says, a little to the right, Jack. And he just veers a little bit. And the car streaks past us. so close that I could very easily see the faces, the horrified faces of the people in the other car.

And it really wasn't until much later that I realized my parents were willing to die or and including kill their child or allow their child to die rather than be impolite. And they could have done what Aunt Marion said. they could have said, oh, Jack, please, turn a little to the right, please. Perhaps a normal person would have said, holy God, pull over, Jack, you're going to kill us all. Yeah, pull over and get out of the car. I'm driving the rest of the way. Yes. And then they say, I'm going to drive now, but that didn't happen. But I literally only spared because of not because my parents spoke up.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so interesting. One of the things that you talk about so much in the first part of your book is all of these feelings you had, which we hear from our own brains and women all the time, about feeling too much. You say you felt too tall to hide. You once asked a pastor how to make boys like you. And he said, why don't you try being more quiet, not so big sometime? Fuck you.

And you said, you said, my dear. dream going up was to take up less space in the world. Right. I just felt like I was taking up too much space. What does that do to us? Because it's almost like not being polite. Like if you're a girl who's taking up too much space, did you always feel like you were impolite because you were existing? Because you were existing. It's true. It's true. I didn't want to over exist. I didn't want to push my existence on anybody. Yeah. It was really true. Overexist. That's good. What is that about? Is it needs? Because when you think about what is the crux of that sin of saying something? Like is it, I have a need that is outside of what you're

providing right now. And I should just wait and be provided. You say that you grew up, even if someone had a cup of ice water in their hands and was about to hand. And I was about to it to you, you were taught to say, no, no, thank you, I'm not thirsty, even if you were thirsty and even if they were giving it to you. Right. Exactly. It was having needs. That was the embarrassing thing or the thing that must be avoided at all times is having a need because that would be impolite to need anything from anybody. But on the other hand, their philosophy of my parents philosophy was give give give give my parents would do anything for anybody my dad fixed everybody's furnace and broken pipes and cars or whatever um but not to take anything for yourself

so then you are a kid you get a paper route and you are abused by one of the men on your paper route and in the wake of that you come home and you tell your mom and your mom goes to talk to him, but never talks to you about it and never presses charges or anything. So you say when it comes not to not talking about things, we knew Englanders are gold medalists. We'll not talk about anything. Right. So how did the not talking about the abuse affect you?

And what do you wish that they had done differently? Well, first of all, at 10, I had no idea that there was. anything between my legs besides that's where you pee. Like I never heard the term your privates, nothing, nothing, nothing like that. So first it started, he just wanted to give me a big hug when I delivered the paper. He gave me like Twinkies or something, you know, every time I came in. And then it got long hugs. And then finally he started reaching down with his fingers and touching me.

And I didn't feel shame. I didn't feel shock. I didn't know what. I just didn't know what it meant. It just seemed strange that that was happening. And so it went on for a while until one day I finally said to my mom, you know what's so weird? I don't understand what this is, why he touches me like this.

And I did it to her because I had no idea that it would mean anything to her either. and she flew through the sea like a rocket. She just went crazy. But then strode up the middle of the street and disappeared, you know, into his house and everything. And I was like, what is this about what, what, what? And it came back and said, you are never to go in his house again. You have to leave the paper at the, let alone, you're not delivering his paper anymore. You're still delivering it, but leave it at the bottom of the stairs.

And didn't say anything about this is what it was about. Or even, you know, he shouldn't have done it. There was no explanation whatsoever about what happened. And so I felt like I did something so horrific. Oh. She can't even tell me what it is. It's just so embarrassing. I've made such a horrible mistake.

that I don't know what it is. I loved that she acted on it immediately. She wasn't polite about storming up the street and telling him, you are not, she will never touch her again and blah, blah, blah. But she didn't follow through with teaching me how to avoid something like that in the future. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, thank you. Kind of like, it's so interesting as parents, like your cat died, right?

Yeah. And then you were, they didn't talk to you about it. And I just relate to this as a parent so much. Like, they didn't talk to you about your cat dying so that they wouldn't traumatize you. Yeah. But then you just felt traumatized like, where the hell did my cat go? Oh my God Yeah the cat got hit by a car And we were quite young Why are you quite little And we asked you know Where's sunny we didn't see him Oh he ran away

But he's living with another family now We're sure And he's fine And And we're like What? What? He what?

We're not going to look for him We're not going to Why does somebody else get our cat? I don't understand anything. And on and on and on. And so began years of my brother and I trying to find out where Sunny is. Oh, my gosh. Who would be in another state driving along?

And if we saw a yellow cat on the side of the road, stop the car, it could be sunny. And it just went on and on and on. And they must have thought, Jesus, God, we made the wrong choice here. Because it didn't spare us whatsoever from feeling pain. And it certainly tortured them. And I would imagine that it gives you a kid some kind of shame too. It's like when you don't explain it right, whether it's the abuse or the leaving of the cat, the kid is left like, what did I do?

Yeah, yeah. How am I supposed to process this? It made no sense. My parents loved animals. They were obsessed with pets. and animals and that they would say, oh, you know, he's totally fine. He's run away, but I'm sure he's found a very nice family. Aren't we nice? We're the nicest. Nobody's nicer than us. Oh, in fact, you're right. Nobody is nicer than us. That's how you knew it was Elijah,

there. There's no nicer family out there. So then you're 12. And you're 12. And you're, and you're 12. And you read an article called Why Feminists are Ruining the World. Right. And you thought, I will never be one of those terrible people. Yeah. Right. As God is my witness. As God is my witness.

I'd never heard the word. Nobody had ever, ever, ever talked about it. And I was learning. It was a sort of political article about how horrible feminism was. And I thought, wow, this is something horrible. Only women can be. And I am so now, at least I know now. You know, what this thing is, you know, what it's called.

And I will never be that. So it's so hilarious that, you know, pretty much the opposite happened. So you try to figure out how you're never going to catch feminism. And then, and then I love this. Second wave feminism comes in and there's all these shows. And this is so cool the way you talk about this, that Bewitched came to the screen and I dream of Jeannie. And reading this, I'm going to be. Like, yeah, those are like cool shows about women having superpowers.

But then you say, actually, they were largely about being told to sit on their magical talents by the men in their lives. Right. And then you say, this happened in like several of my marriages, which point I put down the book to laugh out loud. Well, you know, it's not necessarily true, but. What is this about? What did you mean by that?

Staying small to make men feel comfortable, I imagine. How has this happened in your life? Yes. And I'm not saying that I was forced to do that. It was just how I operated, you know. I used to be incredibly shy when I first met men. And I've only later come to realize that I think I felt like I didn't know how they wanted me to be. and if I could be shy for a little while and figure out what they seemed to like or want,

then I can be that. But I'm going to just hold my cards close to the best until I figure out what's appealing to that. Did that work out well? That works out so good. And then a little while in, you're like, what the fuck am I doing? Yeah. That sounds right. That tracks for me. You turn yourself into a little bit of a pretzel. Yeah. That's the kick in the shorts of life. Because needs are needs. And you can just put those bad boys in a bottle like a genie for as long as you can. But they're going to come out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Yeah.

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So when you decide to go into acting, Gina, I don't know how to ask you this, but like, you talk about when you're backstage, okay, and you're getting ready to do your acting. I don't even know if there's a backstage info. Whatever. Whatever, sister. Just I don't know about acting. All right. You're preparing to act. I'm offset.

Okay. You're offset. Whatever. In her trailer. Okay. And you're supposed to, instead of manufacturing emotion. you're supposed to work with what you have, you say. So there's this scene where this character is supposed to be enraged and broken down.

So you say you have to really prepare using your sense memory stuff. What the holy hell does that mean? How? What? So yeah, I mean, the way I was approaching acting, I don't know what you would label this, but was if you have to find in yourself a time when you were sad or just, you know, bring up the emotion so that you can then act with that, you know, having that emotion. And so that's how I always did things. But after I majored in acting in college, once I was in New York, I had an acting teacher who was very big on using what you're already feeling.

he'd have somebody perform a monologue and then he'd say what happened to you before this earlier today what happened on the way here well i missed the fucking basana you know i couldn't believe it i haven't paid my rent whatever it was and he said do it again but keep keep that feeling and you realize that no matter what you think the character should be feeling you can add how you are actually feeling It sounds like complicated, but it's actually very simple. But it's another layer. Even if it's, let's say you're doing a comedy in a funny scene, but you can't just die. I mean, just put that as a subtext layer in there

and that will help because any kind of emotion is energetic. You know, it's powerful. So anyway, so I thought I understood this and learned it, but then I had a screen text. test for the accidental tourists, this movie, The Accidental Tourist. This little movie. This little movie.

Some people watched it. So I had a screen test, and I never had done that before, and I was very, very nervous. And so I was going to actually be on camera with William Hurt. And I knew there were three other women that were having a screen test, too. It was very, very, very nerve-wracking. And one of the scenes was very emotional. I had to be very, very emotional. So they're getting ready, they're setting up, and I'm behind the, you know, whatever and backstage.

And preparing and I'm thinking about dead cats and, you know, whatever, I'm getting very, very emotional. And I'm all ready. And then suddenly they say, they say, Gina, sorry, we broke a light. It's going to be about 10 minutes. It's like, no, no, oh, no, oh, no, I'll never, I'll never, I'll never. get that back again. What the fuck? They just ruined my life. They just, everything is ruined because now it won't be able to, ah, actually, yes, they ruined my life. It's terrible. Everything is ruined. I won't get the part. And so then I'm like, I'm ready. I'm ready again. And they say,

okay, Gina, we're ready. It's about 30 seconds. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm so angry. And I'm so upset. And the hairdresser comes over to just like touch touch up my hand. right before I go out and she accidentally you know those combs that have a point on the end she pokes me in the eye it's stick accidentally oh my god and I'm like you just ruin my life oh my god you just I was gonna go out there and be upset and I'm still upset thank you very much here I am so it's like misery inception it's like layers and layers oh it's so good I feel you can use that in life. That was such a lesson.

In real time, I experienced an incredible lesson. Yeah. I love it. So is acting just tremendously terrible then? Because you're always conjuring, I mean, you're conjuring up your most, like, traumatic or upsetting emotional moments to be your engines? Yeah, do you always have to think about dead cats? No, no, no.

And most scenes and most roles, that's rare. You know, I'm worried about you, who are miserable 95% of the time. But no, no, no. But, you know, you have to get yourself in different kinds of feelings. You have to get yourself happy sometimes. Like in some of the ways, there was a scene where Susan and I are driving along. and it says

Thelma starts laughing uncontrollably and I was like oh fuck how do you how do you laugh first of all how do you make yourself I don't know where she hasn't done something funny I just start laughing and control I have to control myself enough to laugh

uncontrollably and have it real not that I'm ha ha ha ha ha you're faking it and so I'm like oh come I'm going to do that and so this time I had a completely different idea. I decided I was going to try getting drunk because you're much more likely to laugh on control over.

So I go to the props. Props guys will do anything you want. So I said, I need a little alcohol in my trailer. So they bring a six-pack and a bottle of vodka and put in my refrigerator. And so I sneak back there. And I like pound a couple of beers and do a shot of vodka. and nobody knows, whatever. I go out there and I get the car.

And then I see Susan sitting next to me and she doesn't know and I'm going to tell her that's what I did. And I started laughing uncontrollably. And I'm like, oh, this is such a great idea. And so I just take after take. I laugh uncontrollably because it's, I have this secret. Yes, right.

And so really was like, that scene went great. And I said, yeah, no, I have to go lay down. That's my name is perfect. You guys take a nap. It was done for the day after that, right? I couldn't work the rest of the day, but he was like, who cares? It's going to be fine, you know, whatever. I love this.

Can we talk a little bit about Thelma and Louise? Yeah. Because for the rest of our lives. For the rest of our lives, yeah. So, clearly, women have feelings about Thelma and Louise. Right. One of the things I think is so cool is that in your filming of Thelma and Louise, you just, you talk a lot about how Susan Sarandon kind of Thelma and Louise do.

Like helped you learn how to stop dying for politeness. Can you talk about that a little bit? She louised me in real life. Yeah. I mean, she's the sort of dominant aspect of the friendship. She's a more assertive person. And I had thought before either of us was cast that I could probably play Louise. I could play either part.

You know, I'd be a good Louise also. And then the second I met Susan Randen, I was like, like, what was I thinking? Because she's so, I can imagine, in person, she's so poised and confident and knows what she thinks. And I was like, oh, my God. And it's so strange to think about, but I had never met or been in the presence, or at least the extended presence of a woman who didn't start everything she says with, I don't know what you'll think.

This is probably a stupid idea. So ignore me if it's no good. But could we possibly, you know, whatever. And I never said anything without putting, you know, a thousand qualifiers in front of it. And she was profoundly not like that. The first day I met her, we were going through the script with Ridley,

just to see if we had any little ideas or whatever. And on the first page, she said, you know what? I think we should just cut my first line. We don't need that. And I was like, going. And really just said, yeah, yeah, no, that's right. And I was like, what am I witnessing here?

You know, that she just said that and that he just completely behaved like that was, you know, normal. And I just couldn't believe it. And it seemed so silly, you know, that I had such an extreme view of how much I could say in life and that I had to be very, very careful. to make sure that people liked me, that it would go away in an instant if I said it or did something that people didn't like. So, yeah, I took a bath and watching somebody move through the world in a very comfortable fashion, you know. It's amazing that what the movie did for us is the same thing it was doing for you

in real life. Yeah. It wasn't immediately embraced as much as it is. now, right? Didn't it take some time? Like many movies, there are people that are trailblazers, did it take some time for people to catch on to? No?

It exploded. It was 31 years ago. It absolutely exploded, which we didn't expect at all. Nobody would be making it thought, you know, well, wait, don't people get a load of this. We just hope anybody would go and see it because maybe they won't like that we'd drive off the cliff at the end. Oh, I gave the ending away.

Damn it. But we were like on the cover of Time Magazine pretty much instantly. And there were editorials everywhere up and down about how this is a great thing. And this is the worst thing that's ever happened. It's saying that women have to have guns. And it's ruining everything. It's ruining the world. So there were these extremes, but people were very, very opinionated about it.

The sort of title on Time Magazine cover said, why Thelma and Louise strikes a nerve. And that's how people perceived it, that it either struck a nerve in a good way for you or it was ruining society. Yeah, yeah. Like feminists. We were feminists in ruining society.

Once again, they strike again. Once again, feminists around the world. Yes, which is actually what likely needs to happen. I keep thinking about it this week so much. I think one thing was to be able to see that, yes, the world does feel that dangerous to women in a way that we're all gaslit into thinking, like, whether it's abuse, whether it's cat calling, whether it's not being believed, whether it's being dismissed on the street, with all the things that we got to see Thelma and Louise go through

were so validating because we were just supposed to live that privately without anybody calling it out like you all did. Do you hear that often? Yes, I think that is what happened. I thought a lot about, okay, this is a movie where the lead characters kill themselves at the very end, and women come out cheering. So how do you explain that? You know, what's it about? And then, of course, have come to realize I've had plenty of time to think about it, that it's because it's because. We retain control of our lives to the bitter end.

You know, we will not relinquish control. Because any other ending, people, people are saying, I love that movie so much, but it didn't have to end that way. Yes, it does. Because we couldn't give up control of our lives again. We'd been through, you know, too free to ever do that again. It's the alamo for women. Yeah, yeah.

It's the no surrender. Like, we are not, yeah. And it's the ultimate bodily autonomy moment, right? It's like this empowering, beautiful, but horrific thing that in this world the way it is, if a woman does want to have full control over her life and herself, she cannot exist here. Yeah. Right? We get away.

We get away. We fly away. It's a metaphor. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. This show. is brought to you by Alma.

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Leathlethal weapon. Right. It was entertainment weekly. They evidently thought it was so funny that people were saying, this is the most violent movie, it's so violent. And so they made a chart comparing like number of bullets fired, number of deaths, number of kickboxing fights, which Lethal Weapon did have, and we didn't. For deaths, it was three, including the two lead characters, including themselves. And the lethal weapon was like, you know, 100, whatever. And the bullets, I think it was like seven or something like that in film in Louise. And they said, well, it's about three or 400, but it's hard to count individual machine gun bullets.

So this has to be an approximation. I thought that was a hilarious way to make the point that, what are you talking about? talking about. Yeah, and I wonder if that at all was planted a seed for your future work with the foundation, seeing that chart, because years later, you're watching cartoons with your now 22-year-old daughter, and you noticed something. 20, 20, yeah. Oh, okay, 20. Oh, we have an almost 20-year-old, too. So you're watching cartoons with her. And so you notice something, which kicks off your whole next feminist Thelma and Louise situation. So can you tell us what you were in what you know, noticed? Well, yes. So she was a little toddler and I thought, oh, this will be fun. We'll watch a

preschool show for the first time. This will be great. And I have her on my lap and turn on, but I think it's going to be a great show. And within five minutes, maybe 10, I'm thinking, how many female characters are there on this show? And I'm Googling it while she's watching. And there was one female character and lots of male characters. And I was like, wait a minute. I was shocked. And then we watched some videos and we watched some animated movies and things like that. And I saw it everywhere. It was in everything. And I didn't intend like, now I'm going to make this my life's mission. I'm going to, you know, take this to the Olympics or something. But I couldn't find one other person who noticed what I noticed, not my feminist friends who have daughters.

And then nobody in the industry, because I have meetings all the time, I'd always ask people, I've even noticed how a few female characters or appear in what's made for kids. And they all said, no, no, no, no, that's not true anymore. And a lot of times they would say there's been Bell as proof that gender inequality. I have a Disney princess friend. Disney's doing a great job better than anybody else, as far as that goes. especially in recent years, but who are the other female characters in that movie, you know? And plus she has Stockholm syndrome, let's face it.

So now I thought, okay, nobody sees what I'm seeing. And therefore, it's completely unconscious. They do not know. In fact, they think quite the opposite of like, I'm not doing that. They think they are absolutely doing right by girls. And so I thought, all right, now I think if I could get the data, I could go directly to the creators, because I probably can get meetings with people and share it with them in a private way. I don't have to educate the public to convince them.

They're like a shaming version of it. It's just a very positive version. I go there and say, hey, I'm your friend. I want to keep working with you. Hire me, please. And also, what do you think about this? Let me seriously state it with you. And the first meeting we had was like every other meeting we've ever had,

except for people that have heard of what we do, which is their jaws are on the ground. around. They had no idea. They were leaving out that many female characters that it was so profoundly unequal. So I had the advantage that it's unconscious, so data will help. The people making kids entertainments do it because they love kids. And so this could very well have an impact. And turns out it did. And the numbers have changed. So we're very excited about that. And what you noticed was what we were seeing on screen was not even representative of the world. It's not like you were saying, put more girls in than boys. You were just saying let it reflect the actual world.

Yeah. Right. Exactly. And I think, Gina, about, like, you as a kid feeling like, I always think the best leadership or use of a life always is like, what did I need then when I was younger that I didn't have and then creating it? And it's so interesting when you think kids are watching TV and they're not seeing girls take up any space.

The rooms, they're seeing the classroom. the cartoons, they are literally seeing spaces where boys are taking up all the space and there's two little girls in the corner. Don't you think that could be tied to all of us girls feeling like we can't even exist in rooms that just even are barely being there is taking up too much space because we're not reflected in these media spaces? Oh yeah, yeah. No, we were trained to have unconscious bias. You know, women and men, we all have it. Now, we actually have changed. changed the numbers. The great thing about what we're doing is you can measure whether it's working or not.

And so we have now reached parody in the lead characters in kids TV and kids' movies. And we still have a little work to do on in the worlds and also other profoundly underrepresented segments of society. But we are, it is going in the right direction. So that's great. Congratulations on that. When you started this work, it was 11%. And just last year it's 50-50 parodies. Gina, China Davis.

China Davis. China, can you tell us about the CSI effect? What CSI effect? Yes. Yes. So we studied the occupations of female characters on television, on all television. And there was one occupation that was, this is what, you know, closer to when we started, it was very well.

represented, I would never have to lobby people to add more female forensic scientists, because there were all those CSI shows and bones and all that stuff. It turned out in real life that women were studying forensic science in college to an extraordinary degree suddenly. It went up to like 63% of people. They had to add courses in forensic science because there was such a high demand. from women because they saw it on TV. Wait a minute.

I can be a forensic scientist. How amazing. I am going to be that. So our motto is if she can see it, she can be it. So it actually works. And didn't you find that 58% of women who were currently in STEM studies at the time of your research, they named Dana Scully from X-Files specifically as the reason

that they were inspired to go into STEM? That's right, that's right. I can't remember if it was 58% or 63%. But that's one character from one show. And 58% of the women in STEM name that. I mean, imagine if there were more, we could change everything if we just showed that it normalized.

If we normalized that women and men, you know, everybody can do whatever that is. And that's so important, I feel like that piece, because you're saying please let this pretend scenario that you're putting up on screen through TV intentionally reflect reality. You're not saying, give us something that isn't even true yet so we can aspire to it. You're saying you are actually working in a. retroactive way on our society's progress, because you're not even showing us as we currently exist in the world. Right, right. I mean, what we're asking for is, it was profoundly not controversial. It's just simply, you know, reflect the world. The most shocking statistics are about

occupations, because, let's say for judges and lawyers, in the real world, it's something like 25% are women. And on screen, in movies, it's something like 15 to 1. And so however abysmal the numbers are, in real life, it's far worse in fiction, where you make it up, anything you want. But they don't even reflect the sad reality. So it's kind of shocking. That's amazing.

But then if they did want to be a little more hopeful, that life would imitate art if we put progressive situations on the screen, you also proved with Commander-in-Chief. I love that show so much. And by the way, I have been saying this fact in meetings for like five years. I heard you say this a long time ago. But the show Commander-in-Chief, where you played a woman president, tell us about the poll that was done between Democrats and Republicans.

after watching the show. Just watching the show, the fake show, about a woman president. Yeah, for one season, by the way. Only a group called Kaplan Thaler did a survey and found that, again, something like 60% of Democrats and Republicans said they were more likely to vote

for a female candidate for president because of watching that show. So if only I had had two terms. Exactly. My administration was so short. Dang it. World changing, though. We might not have to wait to put women presidents on TV until we have a woman president.

We might have to put women presidents on TV so we can have a woman president. Exactly. Right? Exactly. Bring my show back. Yes. Come on. Come on, people.

Actually, you know, I was thinking if, I mean, I'm a good age still to be. president. I'm a perfect age. You're a good age for anything. So let's say, let's assume I didn't get elected. And time has gone by and I realize, I got to come back in. They need me. And then the show goes back on the air. Yes. Let's go.

How do we make that happen? Well, and speaking of characters on TV that allow you to become what you eventually will be, please tell Gina about your Dottie obsession. Well, you know, when a league of their own was released, I went and saw it and it's been the kind of movie that I play over and over again and I never get sick of it. There's like five in my life. And I was just telling Amanda and Glenn in this before we got on, that movie had such an impact on my life because the way that Dottie was, Gina, you and I are both big,

tall women, right? And I totally relate to all of the stuff you were saying earlier. And I don't want to be the singled out one in the class. I kind of want to fit in because I've always been, you know, the grass is always greener. So when I saw this Doddy Hinson be not only badass, but also humble, right. That to me, I was so afraid of being big because of this idea that I'd be cocky seeming. And I was always one of the best ones on my team. And so I just told them that I kind of dictated a lot of the leadership style that I had in much of what I saw Dottie bring to the Georgia Peaches. Yeah. She was in your book. I ran, I ran your book over to Abby Wambach and said, you made it in Gina Davis. I was so excited. I was so excited. I'm not going to lie.

I know. I should have asked you if that was okay. Of course it is. It was so funny. I mean, listen, like, to have played for so many years for our country, having you as this inspiration that, like, always kind of lived inside of me, that to me is like one of the most special things. Oh, Abby. Thank you. Thank you.

That's incredible. And you're also a badass athlete of your own in your own right. Oh, well, well, well. Yes. Well, wow. I mean, at, what were you I mean, at, what were you, 38 when you started taking up archery? 41, yeah.

41. Okay, this is, I was actually just said this before to Glennon, I said, I wonder what Olympic sport I could try out for now. And she said, none, you can't. Too busy. No, no, no. Well, archery is profoundly not age dependent. Profoundly not.

Okay. But any age can do it. And I took it up. at 41. And my coach said right in the beginning that it could actually be an advantage to never have done it because most archers haven't shot their whole childhood and whatever, and you learned bad habits. You didn't have the technique. And you have to change that. So then when you're nervous, you might slip back into your old habits. And he said, but you're not going to have any bad habits to slip back into because he didn't never shoot before.

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You were backstage taking a shot. And it wasn't a good one. And your coach said, what were you just thinking when you took that shot? And you realized for the first time, that you were thinking terrible things about yourself. Like, I suck. I'm horrible at this.

Right. And you only realized that that was like a constant loop in your head when he pointed that out. Was that true in other aspects of your life with that kind of negative self-talk? Was it specific to that? Or did that pervade everywhere? Oh, no. It was a running bottle. I mean, every, every minute was negative, negative, negative, negative self-talk about

everything. But I didn't realize. I just kind of wasn't aware of it. And so once I became aware of it when I was shooting, then I'd go back to my normal life and realize, oh, I'm doing it in this situation too. I'm doing it on the set. I was like, people are going to find out I'm a fake actress. I don't know what I'm doing there at all laughing at all. Whatever it is. And so I've started paying attention to that. And he probably helped me with this technique. But if I heard myself say something like you're an embarrassment, you suck or you did something wrong. I'd say, no, I didn't do anything wrong. I'm doing the best I can.

I'm doing the best I can. That was, you know what? That was fine. I'm just doing the best I can't. And so a lot of that has gone away now alone. I love that. I love that. My therapist is teaching me.

Those are just neuro pathways. You can change them. If you just stop the thought and then you say a new one, you're just digging a new tunnel for your brain to start, your brain goes to the least resistant. So if you've been saying you suck, you suck, you suck your whole life, that's where it'll go. But if you work hard to arrest it, say nope, doing my best. Eventually, you'll start going there. I also want to just say for clarity, you were able to become the 13th best archer in our country trying to make an Olympic team.

I just want to be clear that that's what positive self-talk will do, one bond. You started a sport and became a top 13 sporter, a top 13 archer. That's just out of my mindset. After two years, she's like, how about I'll try this? Well, wasn't it her second lesson? Wasn't it her second lesson? It was her first lesson. Her first lesson where she turned to the teacher and said, what do I have to do to become an Olympian?

No, no. I said, how old is too old to go to the Olympics? I mean, he says I asked it at the first lesson. I can't imagine that I really did. I must have waited until the second lesson. Yeah. That would be more reasonable. Because I hadn't touched a bow, meanwhile.

I hadn't touched it yet, let alone knew that I might be good at it. I have a Doddy question. Can we go back to Doddy for a second? I was rethinking about Doddy when I was reading your book. And it's so she, obviously, everyone. knows. She has this husband. She adores. She's the best ballplayer on the field. She becomes the face of the league. And she, it's just very good things happen to her seemingly easily. And then you, Gina Davis, your first ever audition lands you in a role in an Oscar winning film. And then

you, 41. Damn near make the Olympic team. You are literally a genius. And I'm just wondering to the outside world, it might look like you like Doddy make a lot of hard things look easy. And I'm just wondering, what is hard for you? What has come hard and not come? come easy.

Where is the struggle in... A world full of kits want to know, Gina. Well, I'm struggling hard to figure out what that would be. So that's a struggle. Use it. Use it. I mean, so much. But actually, it's sort of the journey that I talk about in the book,

which is I've narrowed down what my mission in life is, which is to close the gap. between when something happens and when I react authentically through it. Because there's such a huge, huge, huge gap. Usually I think a few days later, I think of what I could have said. But slowly until, you know, actually a certain percentage of time now, I will say the right thing at the right time. I would say exactly.

And that's the goal. I mean, but it's still very out of reach and so much. It feels to me like one of the themes of this podcast is always that we learn these rules when we're little that keep us safe in our family. You learned you don't say the thing. You are polite and you, even if you're going to die, you don't say the thing. And then as an adult, in order to be free, we have to break those rules like specifically again and again. So what you're saying is your life goal is to break the rule you learned as a kid, which is to, to say the thing in the moment that you need to say to have integrity, to have your insides

match your outside? Yeah, you're right. You're right. I never thought about it that way, but that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Giving myself permission or finding a way to, I think it's better the way you said to break that and change, change that dynamic. Yeah, for sure. Because you said something about the spirit of the staircase. I love that. So I never heard of that before. Tell us what the spirit of the staircase is. Well, I only learned that phrase recently. Lespre, I can't do a French accent, Les Pris de Scalié is literally having regret on the staircase. So you've left the whatever it was, party or whatever.

And only when you're leaving, do you realize what you could have said or should have said? So, yeah, that's what I lived. Mine's the spirit of the shower. When I am in the shower, I am so freaking amazing, Gina. I say all the things. I just, but it's only in retrospect. So this idea, we call it like smushing the gap between the knowing and the doing. Like when you, like squishing the gap.

Squishing. Yeah, yeah. You said there was a moment, and I just love this example so much. There was a man who hugged you. And he said, great to feel up Gina Davis. Oh, God. Oh, yeah. It was on this project that everybody hugged.

hugged good morning. It was completely normal. And I was hugging this person. And he said, ah, my favorite part of the day when I get to feel up to Tina Davis. And he wasn't feeling me. I were just hugging. But I instantly said, oops, that's inappropriate. And in a rather hubris way, but, you know, very specific. And he was horrified. Oh, my God. No, no, no, no. What are you talking about? No, no. No, no. I'm a feminist. No, no, no. I have so much respect. And I would never. And all day he kept coming back to it about how I took it completely wrong. And I was like, hey, no big deal. I just, you know, it's a big deal.

I just said what I think. It's all cool. I'm not mad or anything. It's just, you know, a fact. But that's the power of the unspoken thing. Everyone has agreed that no one's going to speak it. And your offense was saying the thing out loud that every. knew it was wildly inappropriate. But if you don't say it, it's not real. Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. And

it's a moment that really stood out of my mind because it was one of the signal moments or one of the first moments where I literally said what I wanted to say right on top of when it happened. And I was like, I want to feel this. This is so awesome. Yeah. It is so awesome. What does it feel? like, Amazing. How does it feel in your body? It just feels. I was so happy and proud of myself.

I was like, oh, man. Well, because I had achieved my goal, you know, and one instance at a time is what I'm trying to do. It seems like you guys know what I'm talking about. It's so awful to only think later what you could have said or done, you know. And it's usually just you let yourself be uncomfortable so that somebody else could maintain some level of comfort that they never should have had in the first place. That's right.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think we have our next right thing, Pod Squatters. I think we're going to, well, let's see. This is how Gina says it. I've come to believe that the whole point of my life is to close the gap between when something happens to me and when I react authentically to it. Right.

So beautiful. And if that's too hard, we're just going to stop telling ourselves we suck. And instead, we're going to say, nope, I'm doing my best. That's right. I'm doing my best. I love the oops strategy too. That's really disarming for like someone like me who that feels like very Herculean to do what you're saying, oops. Like we can all agree, you just made a boo-boo.

Oops. Oopsie, Daisy. That's inappropriate. Oops. Oops. You're an asshole. That's inappropriate. That's better for me, right?

The motherfucker back off. I'm going to start with oops. It was sort of a fiction. and cheerful. You've made a mistake. Gina, if you do decide to run for actual president. Yes. Yeah.

We will be on your campaign. That's right. Okay? We are grateful for you and who you are in the world and we're behind you. Thank you for leading the way. Totally. Oh, God. Oh, God.

Oh, God. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. Bad Squad, we will see you back here next time. Bye. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle I came out the other side

I chase desire I got what's my and I continue to believe that as I'm a Because we're adventurers and heart breaks I'm a destination they've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been and too bad we'll find the joy can do a heart a brand new star sometimes things fall I continue

to believe The best people are free And it took some time I'm fine Because we're adventurers And destination We've stopped asking directions To places

They've never been And two never been We can do hard We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.