We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 155. When Should We Quit? with Abbi Jacobson

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

1. How to know when it’s time to get out or stick it out – and the quit that set Abbi on course to meet Ilana and create Broad City. 2. The life lessons of improv comedy: How to get out of your head, trust your choices, and make something together.  3. Abbi and Abby share similar but opposite stories about relationships that changed their lives (and whether to tuck or untuck shirts).  4. Why reimagining A League of Their Own was the Next Right project for Abbi – and how its label as a “queer show” frustrates her.  About Abbi:  Abbi Jacobson is a co-creator, co-showrunner, executive producer and star of the critically acclaimed show A League of Their Own. Prior to this, Abbi co-created, wrote, directed, executive produced and starred for five seasons in Broad City. She is the author of the New York Times bestseller I Might Regret This, and is currently adapting “Go Like This,” a short story by Lorrie Moore. IG: @abbijacobson

They've stopped asking directions to places they've never been. Okay, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We're very excited. Abby and I are really excited. We are. Abby Jacobson is a co-creator, co-show runner, executive producer, and star of the critically acclaimed show, a league of their own.

Yes. Prior to this, Abby co-created, wrote, directed, executive produced, and starred for five seasons in Broad City. Y'all. She is the author of the New York Times bestseller, I might regret this and is currently adapting Go Like This, the short story by Lori Moore. Abby? Oh, man.

I'm going to, that I can't even handle. I'm excited to be here. I mean, seriously, we have been obsessing over you. I have just deep dove in on Abby Jacobs. I deep dove. No. I am dove in, right on in. And we'd never watched Broad City.

We're a little old. Like we just missed, when Broad City was on, I was watching a lot of like Wonder Pets and Blues Clues. Okay, but we have this one very cool member of our team. Only one cool person on our team, Allison. And she- Allison, here we go. Sorry, Dina.

You have been her number one. Like, we must get Abby Jacobson. Yeah. So I read your entire book this week. We've binged Broadson. We can't stop. Well, we've already watched a league of their own.

You are just effing delightful. Yes. You are a delightful human being. I don't know what to say. That means the world from you, too. I'm an avid listener. No. That's so good.

Are you kidding? I listen. Yeah, I love that. This is one of my favorite podcasts. Oh, my goodness. I listen to it all the time. Jody and I listen to it all the time, separately and together.

Yes. Yeah. Oh. It's my, it's. It's so good. It's truly helpful in my existence. So I just feel like we're, like, we probably both feel that we're all friends just based on the work that we've done and the work we've all consumed from each other's work. So it's like I actually, I just said, I was like, I feel like I'm friends with Abby. I know. We decided, listen, this is the beginning. Yes. Okay, good. Good.

That was my backdoor way of asking if you want to be real friends. IRL. Okay, perfect. Okay. And IRL. Same amount of syllables as in real life from Broad City. So we might be doing a lot of that, Abby. We aren't joking. You know what? That's so funny. I was like, why do I know that? It's been a second for me. In your book, I loved it so much. Both of us have a lot of things that we relate to you about and differently. Yeah. Okay. I feel that as well. Yes. So you said that in your 20s, you had dated men, but you had never really. been in love. And you said you'd gotten to this point where you felt like you just weren't cut out for love, right? That you were made of solid rock and that you'd be written about later in life as the woman who never fell in love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I really felt that way. I mean, I dated a lot of dudes and I like love dudes. But I just was like, wait, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know, maybe I'm just not able to connect in that way at all, I guess. Yeah. This just got me.

You said you had an underlying sense of loss within your body for an experience you knew was essential to being alive. God. That's, do you even remember that now? Who, you guys are going in real deep, real quick. I'm like, whoa. Yeah, you know, I also wrote that in a very particular time. I wrote it right after I had fallen in love. I had fallen in love and then like been been heartbroken.

So I was like writing about this in the aftermath. So I wonder if I had written that before. I don't know if I'd be able to be that vulnerable about it. But yeah, I do remember feeling like what's wrong with me. Something's wrong with me. It's in everything I make. I think it is also like our society keeps like putting things in our faces that that show us what we're supposed to be. and what society wants us to be.

And I think, at least when I grew up, you know, I'm 38. It was rom-coms, very heteronorbative. You fall in love. You have kids. Like, it was very like by the book. Like, this is the only way. And yeah, I just felt like I guess I'm not got like in this world. Like, I don't know.

I'll like find my own. But I do remember writing that. And I was terrified. I mean, the title of the book, it's called I Might Regret This because I was very terrified of putting any of that out into the world without it being like behind abbey abrams it's way easier for me to like put that experience into abbey abrams on broad city which is like the way the way that i had her sort of ask a woman out was exactly the way i did it so like all these experiences i like to like put into shows so when i was doing the book i was like this isn't this is just me putting it out there

It was very scary. Do you know who was like, Abby, fucking write this book, is your bud Sam. Oh, no way. We were working on a project forever and she was like one of the main people when I was writing that book that was like, write the worst stuff you feel. Expose it all, you know. Sit at your typewriter and bleed, Aggie. That's all we want is blood.

If you're not going to bleed, don't sit down. Exactly. Do you regret it? I have to ask. No. No, I don't regret it at all. I was able to like tell stories or tell my experiences in the beginning through Broad City, which is very based on me and Alana, but like amplified. And then we were able to like sneak in vulnerabilities and personal things.

And I think if you watch the whole thing, you see it like, it really starts to get heavier underneath it all. But I find now that that's sort of like all I have. is sharing those things, so I don't regret doing that anymore. Or I don't even fear regretting it. Do you ever get confused about which one is you? Because for people, from the Pod Squad listening, Abby, this is Abby, okay? But Abby wrote and played Abby on Broad City, who is Abby, but more of an amplified,

exaggerated version of Abby. So you've got Abby, who is you, real Abby. And you've got Abbey Broad City Abbey. You've got book Abby. I'm asking this as a person who sometimes gets confused about which, like. What is art and what is real? What is real? Yeah.

Which one is real? Is it real if I don't work it out publicly? Like, how do you figure all that out? I think that, you know, when we were ending the show, it was Alana and I both feeling like we needed to know ourselves, know the real Abby and Alana. And that was sort of part of why, one, we wanted it to end on a high note where we felt it was really still great and not just keep going for the sake of going, but also because at least I felt like I was a little bit of a workaholic. Definitely workaholic. I didn't have a big life balance, like work balance. And I was very confused because I would give so much of myself to Abby Abrams on the show, even if she's amplified.

but I'm sure you both feel this. People who know your work and see you in real life, it's the most like complimentary thing to feel like, I know like, oh my God, we're like we're best friends. Like they know you, but then it is confusing because I, while I love sharing and ultimately don't we all want to be like known and seen and heard and understood, I also am like, wait, I also need some, like just me. I'm not fully sharing everything with the world or else I will go crazy.

Yeah. It's very confusing and hard to manage a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Let's tell the people how you got to this place. You applied after high school to go to Atlantic Theater Conservancy, which what I understand from your book was like a fancy pants theater place. Is it fancy? It's like a real deal, dramatic David Mamet. And, William H. Macy's school. So it's like very heady, very theater. Like, this is clearly I'm proving, I'm proving why I shouldn't have been there. I'm like, it's theater.

Theatery. Theatery. Yeah, serious. What I love is that this is your dream to go there. You go there and then you start to realize I don't know if I feel good here. You were just like terribly uncomfortable? It felt very, is pretentious the right word or highbrow acting, which is what I thought. I went to art school.

So I studied visual art. So drawing and painting. And then I minored in video. I went to a school called Micah, Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore. And I was in while I was doing video art, I sort of realized I really do want to be an actor. I always wanted to be an actor. but that's who becomes an actor. I was like, that's not a thing.

Like, I would ever do or tell anyone at home that I grew up with like, that's just like not a reality that happens. Anyway, but then at school, I was like, let me just apply. This is what I've always wanted to do. And I really wanted to like, go into like drama. I would love to do some more dramatic, whatever. She still can't. She still can't. She is an acting.

and she's scared to say she wants to be an actor. Well, I always say writer for ideas. Someone says, what do I do? I say I'm a writer first because most of the things I've acted and I've written. But I got in. I went up, I prepared an audition. I went up to New York. I got in.

And so I was like, holy shit. Like, I'm going to here we go. Here we go. This is like the real deal. And then the first week was one of the worst weeks of my life. Oh, no. Like you sign up and you're so excited for this. And it's just not how my brain operates.

It was analyzing scene studies in a way that probably works for a lot of actors. And if you would see what I do now, it like totally makes sense that I would not go there. I like being very improvisational and open and like figuring it out and not highbrow. I don't think of myself as high. Yeah. Not low brow, but like medium brow. No, not low brow. Medium brow.

I was miserable and I was like, well, I guess I can't be an actor. Like I'm failing at this. I had like a breakdown in the street, which I thought also now looking back is sort of like a right of passage. I think that everybody does that. But yeah, I quit. I had to quit sort of pretty soon in order to get my deposit back. And then I felt like a failure. I'd moved to New York.

No one in my family had ever like left Philadelphia. Philadelphia. My brother worked with my dad. I was the one, I was like going to do this thing and then I couldn't do it. And then I discovered the upright citizens brigade, which like that world is totally how my brain works, comedy and improv. And then I sort of just kept going. It's like you queered theater. This is a pattern for you. Thank God. Because a lot of times we go into the thing, the norm. And then we hate it and don't. feel comfortable there, so we think there's something wrong with us. Exactly.

We just stay and try to be better and slowly die inside. This is why quitting is so fucking important. Yep. Because I was reading that part of the book when you were in that theater thing and thinking, oh, when you follow your own self, you end up with Broad City. Exactly. Because I met Alana in like an improv practice group, which I really don't want to go into the the specifics of improv, whenever I go into it, I'm like, people are falling asleep.

This is so such a, a, can you do it a little bit? Can you do it a little bit? It's such a specific, like, it's almost like a cult. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It's just this world that a lot of people that find it, I met Darcy doing improv and Alana and I met in this practice group. It's basically this space.

It was a theater, a black box theater that was under a supermarket called. Gristidis is in like the basement of a supermarket and it was like the most special place I had found in New York City where every night after I worked at anthropology just like Abby did on Brought City and at the Rockefeller Center one and I can't believe they let me shoot there after all those years but um anyway so uh you are you walk in and there is a palpable energy and people are going on stage with no with nothing, getting a suggestion from the audience, and together, however many people are on stage, whether it's three or eight, they're making something. That to me is fully the opposite of Atlantic, which was like analyzing a sentence for like an hour versus what could happen. The possibility is trying and failing. Like people, you would bomb so hard and then someone would like save you. It just was this like teamwork very, it actually is, it was so not a queer. There were like not that many queer people, but it felt so queer.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. Like queer sexually. I mean queer. No, no, no. But like it is like the queer world of acting. It's not outcasts because, but a little.

Like it is the weirdos. I just want to say because I'm kind of a leader in what I used to do. And quitting like the definition of. quitting for me. It's like pivoting. Like you went to this place. You're like, oh, nope. Like you had a full body no. And it gave you the chance to pivot and experience something different with upright citizen brigade. And I think that to me, like that is a really important lesson here that a lot of us find ourselves doing things that we're like, this is just like a full body no. That doesn't mean necessarily you're a failure. It just means that that shit's not for you. Right. And it's open.

opening up this other door over here. So like, don't forget to pivot. Yeah. I love that because it's not, I've never thought about it that way. I've always felt like I quit this thing. No. That was so hard.

But it was just a pivot. Yes. I feel like if most people look back on those quitting moments, it really just pivoted them into the next. Yeah. The right thing or like closer to the right thing. And sister's not here to be the nerd.

I know. I'm very yet to tell sister that I'm such a fan and tie. I had all that. Oh, she would want me to remind us all that the origin of the word quit is quietists, which originally meant to set ourselves free. Yes. Okay? It only got the negative connotation during the Industrial Revolution when they wanted us all to become robots.

So it used to be a very powerful freeing like badasses quit because, no, that's not for me. And having full body no experiences is sometimes more important than full body yeses. Because it's like knowing, yeah, knowing what you don't want. want is information. It has nothing to do with like failure. I can totally relate to leaving your family. You're taking this big risk. You're going outside of like the family norm. And so what are they all going to think when I, when I say I'm quitting this place? Well, and relationally, some people could be in like a heterosexual marriage for like 14 years. Who's that? Some people. I should just be trying harder. Like this is just, this is just, it's something wrong with me. It is so interesting to recognize.

as like there are those moments where in your full body you feel a thing. Yep. But I mean, to not act on that is wild, right? It's so wild. This time of year, I am always looking for my sweaters. Luckily, Quince has all of the staple sweaters covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. I can't tell you how much I'm

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strawberry.me slash we can do hard things and try a coaching session for 50% off. Strawberry.combe because your career should feel good again. I think it must be really interesting for you, too, as an actor to really love this improv thing. I want you to tell me more about what it is like in your body on that stage. Because guess what? We're all doing this weird improv of thing of life. All the time. So you said it's a Bible of values. Yes. I haven't done it in a while and I was just talking to Darcy about wanting to do it. Darcy Cardin, who I'm talking about, wanting to do it again because she's so good. And there's still a little bit of like a hesitancy

because I was never like, quote unquote successful at improv like in that theater. And that's why Alana and I made Broad City. But I think I am successful at improv in my work, which I'm bringing the values and like that kind of experimentation into Broad City and then into League. It's the most terrifying thing. I would equate it maybe with where you're meeting someone new where you have this, where you have to remind yourself that being nervous is good. Being nervous is actually being excited.

Being nervous is excitement. You know what I mean? You have to like shift it where you're like, This is good. These are good feelings. Like, I can do this. And so it's like a nervous is mixed with a will to be confident. It's a teeny microcosm, I think, for living life, which is I have to put myself out there, try. There's going to be all these other people have to, like, try and trust as much as I can and help and support. And hopefully they're going to do that for me. And there's going to be like super highs and there's going to be like super bad lows. And we'll like then. the lights will go out and we'll like get to do it again. What does using the top of your intelligence mean? Yeah. In the book you said this is an improv thing.

And also don't think. Yes. So the don't thinking is like the UCB method up, like one of their slogans, which means you work. Like Abby, I would imagine it's exactly equivalent, I think, to being an athlete where like you work out and you train and you practice and you get your muscles

and the team is like so used to working together so that when you go out into the field, you're not thinking. Right. You're just like doing and you're operating and you like know each other and trust each other. And to get in your head, I imagine while you're playing would be the worst thing. Yep.

Yeah. So it's like, don't think. It's like the commitment to like letting what should unfold, letting that actually unfold. Hmm. While also putting your own. energy and spin into it. I bet that that's a lot like improv.

Yeah, I mean, you're still, you're still obviously making choices and decisions, like on the fly, but you've worked enough. And with improv, you practice that skill set to like kind of get to a point when you go on stage for a show, you're sort of like not thinking

and just trusting that your choices will work or they'll fail, or they'll be what they are. Like, there's nothing like it. That, those, that hour or whatever long in it is, you're like almost high. Not that I've ever done anything that would be. I'm going to. No, we know.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. In the book, it was so funny to me because there's, you have this one part that's all about improv and the magic of it and yes and and just don't overthink and all the things. and then right afterwards you're talking about how you used to go to a bar afterwards and then you were so self-conscious and you couldn't talk to anybody.

And I'm like, I'm with the book, I'm like, Abby, just improv. Yeah, yeah. But that's the thing where it was like, it was this thing I found that, that like the goal was to be all I wanted to be in real life. I wish I could be confident and trust myself more and, like, be open.

And I think over here, I was seeing all these people doing that. I was so in awe of it. And so I sort of did it as much as I could. And I guess I felt that high over here because I am very insecure. And naturally, I mean, yeah, I just am that. It's a good thing for someone like me to get into or to find. I feel like I should do improv.

It's the opposite of everything. Yeah, I think that just watching Broad City, too, I can see the parts of the scenes where, you and Alana are just going into it. Not only is it funny, but it's like, I can feel that magic when I'm watching it, even on something that's been edited and produced, like a television show. Not all improv when you go to watch it.

We learned that on Broad City. It's as good as it feels to do it. Yeah, like most of it is what you saw where we were making fun of it. And everyone that made Broad City, we all met doing improv, but it is also terrible. And so the improv you saw in the show is very much like not using the top of your intelligence. So when you sort of like go low, go blue quickly.

What does that mean? Go blue quickly. It's like coming out and being like someone is going to correct me. It's almost like being gross and crude and perverted. Yes, yes. Did you just search that? No. I was like, someone like texting you that.

Yes, it's crude and perverted. Which, like, sometimes you can, like, get there in an intelligent way. But sometimes it's just, like, going for the easy, what you think will make people laugh. Because it's really about someone walking out and saying and trying something, being a character. And the yes ending is, like, is acknowledging their choice and not negating it and adding to it. Right. And so sometimes using the top of your intelligence is you know. these things. So like,

inform the scene with all the things you know and don't go. Yes. This is basically the difference between Glennon's humor and my humor. I go blue. Because I'm just searching for a laugh. I don't even care how I get there. And Glennon goes and tries to use her

the highest of intelligence. Oh, thanks, babe. Listen, I go, Brat City is like half is like both. So I'm not like above. I'm not above going blue. But yeah. So we talked about this this morning and I love this so much because the queering of the theater gave us all of the Abby magic. Yes.

Red City with League of Their Own, which I can't wait to talk about in a minute. When you queered your love life, you're engaged to a woman now. We'll get to that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is so exciting. Okay. She's so excited that I'm doing this. She was like, there was a moment where you were dating this first person who you were in love with long ago.

And you had never tucked in your shirt before. Yeah. Okay, this is the biggest deal. Okay? It's a total last week. The queering of the clothes. Okay? Why did you not tuck your shirt in ever, first of all?

I think I didn't tuck in my shirt. I never really thought this was like a queer thing. This is more of, um, in line with like my insecurity and not being confident with my body and all this. I don't mean, when I say queer in all of these ways, all I mean is like being yourself. Yeah. Yes, and that's, and yes. And she was like, why don't, like, you, you look so good.

Like, why don't you tuck in your shirt? Because tucking in your shirt, you see more of your body. And I'm, I was always like pulling it out and like very insecure. And then I tried it. And I was like, wait, I do really like the way I look. And I like the way I feel. And I think it was partially about how I felt in that moment, too, like with her and all that. I'd probably tuck my shirt in a couple times.

but maybe not felt like that was a thing that, like, looked good on me or that I felt confident in. And, yeah. So when you broke up, you said to her, one of the last things I said, I just think it's so important. I know. So, and then you, I want you to tell Abby your story about shirts. One of the last things I said to her was, you changed my life. You taught me how to tuck in my shirt, which obviously didn't just mean you taught me how to tuck in my shirt.

So what did you mean? Did you finish league? Yeah. I think that's one of the last, I think that's like the last thing Carson says. Yes. Yeah. I can't help but bring humor into any situation. That was like a devastating moment.

And it meant so much more that relationship did fully change my life and gave me the confidence. Like knowing I was queer, which took me so long. gave me such a different confidence in everything. And the shirt tuck just felt really like a part of it, even though it was like the smallest thing. Yes, it always is the smallest thing. And then I really did see myself. I really did feel so different. Let me hear this shirt story.

Yeah, I had the opposite situation. So in college in the late 90s, I came from an all-girls Catholic school, high school, went to college and my first girlfriend in college, she just says to me, you know, why don't you try untucking your shirt? And I was like, huh, because this is like, this is like, this is like, this is so funny. Yeah. That is so funny.

Because her mom dressed her like Talbitts. She went to a Catholic school. She was like her queer Abby Wanbach self tucking her shirt in. But I think like the bigger point to this story. story, like truly, is this idea. And I don't mean to genderize it or or talk about like guys and, and, women in relationships versus two women. But I do think that this is one of the things about being in a relationship with somebody who can truly be honest with you because they are experiencing what you're experiencing in so many ways of this world. And so the way that my girlfriend at the time and

the way that your ex was able to express this information, was able to be understood and realized and then put into action in a way that is actually life-changing. It's so beautiful, though, because it's not about the tucking. Some people need to untuck. Some people need to tuck. It's just everybody needs to be seen. I honestly don't feel like I was walking through the world, like, hiding this thing. I think, I don't know.

I'm truly like what was happening. I went to arts. Like, I don't know what was going on. Blinders. I don't know. But it felt like she was saying, you're hiding this. You're hiding your body. And you don't need to.

You're not revealing this part or something. Yeah. You're hiding. And yours was hiding. The closest I've come to that moment, because I still don't know how to dress in a way that makes me feel like I'm, I have no idea. I always feel like I'm wearing a costume no matter what.

I don't know how to match my insides to my outsides with clothes. But I used to come home. every day. And like the second I'd get in the door, I'd like peel off my skin tight pants and take off my shoes and my heels and take out the things from my hair and my, you know, all this shit. And I'd say, I said to you one day, do you want to go get cozy? And you said, oh, I live cozy. And I was like, what the fuck? You can really? Wow. That's wild. Glenn. And I'm like you where I'm like, I got to get into my, like, I got to go. change to like go, like watch TV.

Exactly. Me too. And she's like, why would you wear something that you out in the world that you, that is less comfortable than the thing you would, like, why would you ever do that? Yep. Wait, I feel like I want for you to find clothes that make you feel more you. There should be someone you can go to. Abby, all I do is change from costume to costume.

Do you want me to take you out? Yes. there's my girl boss suit outfit. But like, there's my... What if you, like, went to a department store? I'm just, like, tried, tried random stuff on just to see. Worst case scenario you back where you started. I think I need to do that.

I mean, you put on... I don't know. You put on three to four outfits a day. Because I'm just constantly trying to figure out what the hell. What is it? You know, I grew up, like, all this horrible, like, tight stuff that was just about, like, the way that I appear and not how I feel. Some of it's also armor in a way. You can see the tucking really did a number on us. That's so fascinating that yours was the complete opposite, but did the same thing.

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Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. We need to talk about Ilana and Broad City because we can't do that without getting to a league of their own. And what, I just freaking love the, are you and Alana still as close as you used to be with this? Yeah, but I don't see her as much. I still go back and forth to New York a lot, but she's in New York and I'm more in L.A. now. Okay. So you two just improv, you're like, you leave your fancy school. You go to, improv. You're not like completely led in the boys club at improv, right? So you and Alana just decide

to make a freaking show. Like how did this happen? Yeah. We were on a practice team, which is like what the community kind of does where you like practice one night a week with a coach, uh, doing improv. And then we would host shows at like a little teeny theater, uh, called under St. Marks. You'd team up with a couple other teams and you'd have a night of it. You'd give the audience like shots of a terrible thing to get them to come. It was just like a fun, such a fun community of all these people trying to do this. And we were the only two girls on our team. And we were just really good friends for two years doing that. She's just like so unique and different than anyone I'd met or especially any of my other female friends that I had known from high school or college, the dynamic that you

see on Broad City was just like always that and then amplified, but we just cracked each other up. And then two years after doing this improv team, we sort of realized, what if we made something? We cannot get on the UCB stage. We can't. We're both like trying to audition for commercials, trying to become actors, nothing. What if we make these little vignettes? And so we, We had a web series called Broad City for two years. So we started that in 2009 and did like 35 web episodes for two years. And then at the end of it, we had gotten this manager and she was like, what if let's pitch it as a show? And we somehow threw this like crazy series of events got Amy Poehler to be in the finale of the web episode, which was just like wild in itself.

Like that alone, we could have been like, we're done. Right. You know, like we did it. And then once we sent it to her, we said, we're going to L.A. to pitch this as a show, would you ever want to be an executive producer on it? And she said yes. And she said yes and.

Yes, and. And let's do it. Amazing. So she. Yeah, crazy. And she was, she's a big part of the upright citizen brigade. She was one of the owners. Yeah.

Okay. So this is like freaking, it's just her seeing in you all. She saw the magic. Amy's the best. So it's so ironic, like we couldn't get on stage there at the place that she own,

but she was not like there day to day. And then we ended up like going totally around. She ended up making a show that was farther away from anything we thought where our like dream was. And then we made that. So it was also like quite a learning curve taking these little vignettes, which are scenes very short into a TV version. For the parents out there who have teenagers and 20-something year old kids right now, it is a good peek into their kind of sense of humor or sense of themselves. I'm telling you, it's it made me know my kids experience a little bit better.

I love that. I think we maybe are outdated. Like the kids now, I don't, I think we're. are different than we were. Do you know what I think? Yeah. Season one came out when I was 30. Oh, wow. But we were playing, I'm 38. So we were playing, like, I was playing 25.

And Alana was playing like 21. She's four years younger. It's very much us, though, to just discover something that, like, has, for you, was like a decade ago. That is very on brand for us. I think it makes sense. It has a pocket. It was not ever, like, massive.

Well, speaking of what's been. massive. We just interviewed Gina Davis last week. Oh, you did. The League of Their Own, your version is unbelievable and incredible. And I don't have versions the right word. I caught a reimagining. A reimagining. Because I don't feel like we're not adapting. That was like a big thing that people were like, how are you going to like ruin our movie, you know? They're so different, I think. So it's like a reimagining. Totally different. And also all the good, all the good stuff that people will we're probably afraid of losing is all still there.

Yeah. League of their own as an idea as the first movie was really important to both of us for different reasons. Why was it important to you? What about that story felt important to you? So the film came out in 92. I think it was one of the first films I saw in the theater. Oh, cool.

And I played a lot of sports as a kid. Soccer was my main sport, not softball. But I did. play softball. For me, it was, well, one, seeing women playing professional sports, even though they were in skirts. I, just seeing that on screen and seeing the ensemble of women, that group playing together and hanging out and being, like, funny. I don't think I'd seen that on screen. I mean, I think that and like Mighty Ducks were my big. Me too.

But Mighty Ducks is like the one girl that's like hiding that she's a girl, you know. And I just felt very connected to it. I was pretty young, but I think I was like, that's like us, like me and my teams. Like that's the one movie we get in that way. And I, even though that, you know, they were way older, but I just, I loved it. I did not sense as a child like the queer undertone at all. It is a kind of an iconically queer film, but not queer at all at the same time. Yeah.

What is that? Like, why? Because all the things that are like are queer but not queer are the things that my whole life I've been like, huh. I love that thing, but I don't know why. Why is League of Their Own so queer? I mean, you queered it now. It's like.

Yeah, the film to reimagine. Everything has been manifested. Yeah. in the reimagining. Well, because the storyline of the film is a bunch of women that are doing something that has only been allowed and allotted for men. And because of the concept that all of like the players were over in war, it's like the thing you're not supposed to touch. But when you watch something like that and you are that, you're like, that's it. That's what I want to do. It opens up a different door that never was there before. And the relationships between the women.

Yeah. That was. Wait, I'm curious what you're, what you felt from it. Well, first of all, I've never played a sport. I mean, I tried to play lacrosse, but it wasn't great. It wasn't a good idea. I love that that was the one you went for. Well, it was brand new in our high school. So it was like if you didn't make any other team.

Gotcha, got you, gotcha. Okay. Art house, Abby just got teepied last night. Because our kid is in a sport, so their team came and teepied their house. And I was so excited. And Abby was like, why are you so excited? I was like, because I wasn't relevant enough. In high school.

In high school to ever get T-Ped. I took pictures yesterday morning outside of my house, like having been T-Ped, because it felt like such a high school cultural moment. Anyway, I'd never been part of a team before. You're not taking it down. Right. No. God.

It's proof that I've arrived. Yeah. I took it down. I know. So I was a little kid who was very. isolated, all I did was read. I didn't have a lot of friendships or I didn't have any relationship with boys that weren't, I just was always performing. I wasn't worried about like how I felt. I was worried about how I looked. I wasn't worried about, you know, my body was for

for appearing a certain way. And so watching athletes, I feel the same way when I first met Abby and started following the national team. And I would, like, get emotional, like, cry watching them play soccer. Because I was like, oh, these are a bunch of women who believe in something together. This has nothing to do with men. This is their own, a league of their own, I guess. There was just something like another planet. It was like another planet to me that I had always been yearning for but had never been part of.

Yeah. And I think that movie for me was just like I had been dreaming of this idea of something and it was in my head. That was it. And then there was this movie that put my dream into a context that made me be able to see it for the first time, you know? And talking to Gina, it was just so lovely to be able to express that to her. Because at the time, this is 92, when I first watch it and it comes out, there is no such thing as like women's professional soccer. And so, you know, you go down the road four years. And that's when our women's Olympic team was in the Olympics for the first time. They win gold. And the 99 was a few years later. So it is important for people to see shit in order to become it. It's not 100% necessary because there are pioneers.

But to me, that's what it was. It was like this thing that I could see that then I could attach my dreams to in some ways. And now you put Carson and it feels like, I don't know. It's really important. It feels really important to me. I love her. I love the journey. Again, there's so much of you.

Yeah. Am I right about that? Like, how do you do this? How do you write this? Like, how did it happen? I guess I also get nervous. How many times you can do a supercut of how many times I say I'm nervous. Same.

I'm nervous. I'm nervous. Yeah, I'm nervous. I think I always felt with Carson, I didn't sign on to act in it for a long time because I wanted to make sure I, I don't know, I was always writing it with Will Graham. I wanted to make sure that I loved it.

And it felt, I don't know. I also was scared. This journey has been terrifying. It's people's favorite movie. Right. It is a big, big one to, to, touch, you know. Reimagined. Yes, to reimagine. But I feel like with Carson, there's a lot of me in Carson and then also a lot that's not. But I think I liked adding, I like adding that personal

ness to it. And I also, listen, I want to do roles that aren't so much like me. But I feel like the show as a whole is a little bit of a Trojan horse of the, some, of the bigger, bigger things we're saying with it. So you're coming into it and with me running. And it's like very funny, but also it's like about real things. The one thing I think I am confident is, is like my relatability. And I even feel weird saying that. Own it, sister.

It's so relatable to consider yourself relatable. I feel this way. I'm like a very approachable, relatable character to be like following this intense journey that's kind of like turn our life completely upside down. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people

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demystifying AI at netsuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at net suite.com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. As you and Will were doing this, what was your dream for it? Yeah. How would it change things or people? I think because we made it, you know, so much of this was over COVID, which was this terrifying time that we're still in. Yeah.

Hello, we are still in. Yes. Ultimately, I want people to feel things when they're watching anything I make. So they're laughing. They're feeling connected to it. They're feeling emotional maybe when that's happening. But I think bigger picture. my goal was always

sort of for people to feel seen and less alone. It's the same with Broad City. Just league is a little bit more stories to be seen and heard and felt connected to. And to feel less alone

and to feel like, oh, I feel like, oh, that's me and my friends. That's me. And if I don't have that team yet or if I don't have that best friend yet, they're out there. Like,

there are those people. I don't know. And for now, I can watch the show and feel it, you know? It's a double thing with League. Like in Broad City, it feels like everybody,

it feels very like the human condition is seen. Yeah. Like I feel like the human condition is being seen and celebrated and we can all just laugh. And League feels like there is that, but it's also really important. Like the race,

the whole... I feel that. The real story is also being seen. Yes. Of the struggles of the... Yes. is being honored. Yes.

The full stories are being honored, which doesn't happen. We got a chance to talk to Penny Marshall before she passed away, which is incredible. And just to go into that a little bit more is that, you know, there's a scene in the film where there's a foul ball and a black woman picks it up and chucks it back to Gina Davis. And there's no dialogue. If you blink, you miss this scene. And the audience is supposed to feel like, wow, she's incredible. she's got a great arm. Why, like, she's clearly not allowed to be on the team because of, because she's black and it's 1943. We're getting all of that information from this one little moment

and then nothing. And so, like, that league, the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was this incredible opportunity, this door that opened for white women and white passing women, which is like my character, that door opens. And we're seeing half of our reimagining is showing that. And we're also exploring the white passing women and what it was like for Latino women, Esti and Lupe. Those characters are dealing like this whole other experience of what it's like to be sort of burying who they are to be able to play on this team. And so the film only really explores what it's this incredible league for like some women. But what about the rest of the athletes that were incredible? Hundreds and thousands of women of color played baseball.

And so we really took in the pilot that we're nodding to that scene. So Max, who's played by Shante Adams, that throw happens. And the show is half my world and half Max's world. And what happens when that door closes for women of color, who were incredible athletes? And her character is inspired by three, women who played in the Negro leagues, Connie Morgan, Tony Stone, and Mamie, Peanut Johnson. I knew about Tony Stone before we started, but this show had like a heavy research element.

There's like a researcher on full-time, which, believe it in an up Broad City, we did not have that. And so, yeah, you're shocked, yeah. I didn't know about the, but about Connie and Mamie and or Billy Harris, who was like the Jackie Robinson of soft and all these leagues. And it's like, right, of course. But we know the one movie with the white women playing. And so it was so important for us to show as many experiences as we couldn't listen. We're not, there are a lot more experiences we're not able to showcase.

But for us, this was like, so far, these are the stories we were so excited to share. And we felt like they really weren't in the in the. in the film. In 92, there are some the different stories that Hollywood was showcasing, and I think we have an opportunity here to show a lot more.

And that also obviously includes, like, it's such a queer show. A lot of the women on this league were queer. And that's not in the film at all. Right. And that was really important for us to show. It's so good. It's what, it's the power

and the necessity of reimagining. That's, this is what it is. Why does League of their own need to be reimagined? Well, it did need to be reimagined. And hopefully in 20 years, 25 years, there will be another reimagining. And the consciousness will be so different that it will need to be reimagined again.

Yes. That's the power of evolution and consciousness raising and the art needs to reflect our raised consciousness. And that's what you did. And it's beautiful. Can I ask you guys a question? Yes. about this because I've been talking about the show for a while and I go all over the place

with talking about this. But Abby, you had said that content and seeing this is so important. Stuff can happen without these stories being shown to us in film and TV or whatever, but it does have a huge impact. And I think there is queer content more than ever being put into the world and I think it's essential to know it's queer content and I also there's a part of me that hates so much that it's like the queer show it makes me insane do you feel that way or do you like I'm just sort of like I guess when we get to a point where it's not labeled in that way that's it? But that's the point? That's 20 years down the road. But there's, or 10 or 5.

But that's because there are people who have to live in both spaces. Yes. There are people who are forward thinking who are already driven mad by the fact that we have to label stuff queer now because they can see a true more beautiful world where that's not going to be a thing anymore at all and they want to start living it now. Which I also feel is super, super important. I love in Schitt's Creek, right, where Dan Levy, there was no homophobia. There was nothing like in the town. And he was like, well, we did that so we could show the way it should be and the way it will be eventually because does art imitate life? Does life imitate art?

If life imitates art, then we need to be the ones who are showing. This is how it will be. Let's encourage the world to recreate that. So I don't know. I mean, little things are so in Broad City when Alana was like, I'm going to a straight wedding this weekend. I love that. I mean, I looked at you. I was like straight wedding.

So good. Yes. This is a thing in scripts that I do. people often put, if they're going to state someone's race, a character's race, it's, if you read a lot of scripts, you notice that white is never, like, the industry operates on a default so that white is never included. So that white is never included, but any other race, if it's specified, is included. And then you're like, wait, you're either using all. of them or that's just like an inherently fucked up way of operating.

That's right. And that's so beautiful. I know. It's just the little ways that you can do that, sometimes it takes somebody to say straight wedding to be like, yeah, why are we all shit? Yeah. So, Abby, we love you. Thank you for this.

We just please keep all of your vulnerability and all of your magic, who you are, comes through in every single thing that you do. I can't handle it. That means the world to me. Thank you. I'm so, I feel very honored to be on here with you too. Same. What a good conversation. We love you. Keep fucking kicking ass. Yes, and we love you, Pod Squad. See you back here next time.

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