We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 16. QUITTING: When is it time to let something or someone go?

Episode Date: August 10, 2021

1. The one question to ask yourself when deciding whether it’s time to quit something. 2. Why Glennon actually believes that quitting each day is necessary for her survival. 3. The big quits that led Abby to Glennon.   4. Amanda’s unexpected great relief—and hope for your relief—in learning about how we’re all just as happy as we’re ever going to be. (And how, as expected, Glennon disagrees.)  5. Rethinking the ending of a marriage as a positive quit and how to talk to friends going through it.

They stopped asking directions. Some places they've never been. Hi, everybody. Thanks for coming back to We Can Do Hard Things. This episode is about the power of quitting. It's about quitting as self-care and as an act of self-love and as resistance. We recorded this episode before Simone Biles. stepped away from an Olympic moment in order to protect her own mental, physical, and emotional

health. And judging by the world's reaction to her no, we think we're on to something with this conversation. Because the world loses its damn mind when a woman decides to abandon the world's expectations of her instead of abandoning herself. When a woman decides to disappoint the entire world before she disappoints herself. When a woman values her own experience above our experience of her. When a woman says, I am more than what you can get from me, I choose me. And judging by the response to Megan Markle's, no, to Naomi Osaka's, no, and to Simone Biles, no, the world especially loses it. When the woman who dares to insist upon and protect her own humanity happens to be

be a black woman. Let's get started. Thanks for being here. Today we're going to talk about something that's near and dear to my heart. And that is quitting. I was raised by a football coach, okay, which was interesting for my an aogram for deeply empathic, sensitive poet soul. my sweet father would say things to me often like, well, if I sat down and said I was tired after school, he would say, Glennon, you can rest when you're dead. Okay. That was seven. Suck it up, buttercup, it's too far from your heart to hurt. All of these sort of things were my, I guess, motivational speeches?

Great for a linebacker, not so great for a toddler. Right. Maybe. Maybe. And then I go out of my home and venture out into the world and learn that this cultural obsession with what we have defined as toughness, resilience, never quitting is freaking everywhere, right? I mean, we hear winners never quit. Quitters never win. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Suck it up. Never give up. All of these messages, and I don't buy it. Okay. I am here today to challenge this resilience at all costs narrative. I am here on behalf of quitting as the strong, wise thing to do quite often. Okay. And I'm here to do it with the two toughest non-quitters on earth, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle. And we are calling this episode, we can quit hard things. Okay? Sister, why don't you start us off?

You never, never, never quitter. Well, I was, we'll have you know that when you told me we were talking about this, of course, I did what I do, which is research things. And I was looking for quotes and theories about quitting. And I will let you know that your bride came up at the top of the Googles. Quotes about quitting. Okay, here it is. And I'm quoting an Abby voice.

You must not only have competitiveness, but ability, regardless of the circumstances you face to never quit. Oh, my God. That's so funny. Yeah. It's you. It's you. You're up there. And then I found this quote from your bride, Abby. When asked by a journalist, how do you not quit? Glennon says, oh, I do quit. Quitting is my favorite. Every day I quit. Every single day. I wake up and I care the most amount. And then at some point, I put it all away and melt to my people at my couch and food and nothingness. And I care not at all. Begin and quit every day. It's the only way to survive. Amen. I would never start hard things if I did. know that quitting was just on the horizon. That was your self-care strategy too in the self-care episode, right? Just self-care is just constant spiritual practice of quitting. That's right. But babe, talk to us a little bit about your incorrect statement about quitting when you were

talking about how important it is to not quit. Why don't you tell us your theories? Well, listen, we're all different. We all grew up in different ways and I played sports for 30 years, right? And doing it at a level that quitting wasn't part of your vocabulary. But I think as it relates to any athletes, quitting, you are taught the opposite of quitting is winning, right? Quitting is, in fact, losing. You can't actually win if you quit. You can't stay in the game.

You can't stay in the practice. And what I learned over the course of my career is if I just didn't give up. up, I was allowed to keep playing. And I was good enough that I was allowed to keep playing. And that, I mean, I know that some people might completely disagree with me, but I believe that that mindset is the reason why I was able to win championships and play at the high level that I did for so many years. And you still have that. Yeah, it's still inside of me. I can't completely get rid of it. Like, for instance, and this is the bane of your existence, Glennon, but. I fancy myself like a home fix-it person.

Oh, sweet Jesus. And it's just not true. I know it's not true, but I still fancy myself that way. I like to think of myself as some, like the lesbian who can fix shit. Like, I like that, I like feeling that way about myself. So for an example, I ordered this new griddle, outdoor grill. It's the craze. My brother told me about it.

And it's a propane grill that. I now need to convert from propane to natural gas because we have a pipe that comes out of the wall. Well, now I have spent probably collectively 10 hours building this thing and trying to convert it because what I've done is stripped the thread. Basically, I broke it. And I have, I'm now actually considering paying somebody to come fix it. why do you think it is that you cannot quit those things? Like you don't, you look at a grill and it's, and it's falling apart. And you say that you don't, you don't want to give up because then you feel like you've wasted all the time you put into the thing. That's a real thing. That is, so there's this idea of sunk cost. So sunk cost is basically any unrecoverable cost that you've already incurred. So

say you're, you know, you're like, I'm buying software for my job and you, it's a 500 bucks and you spend a day training on it. And then you realize, oh, this isn't working. This is not going to work. You will actually want to continue using it because you spent the money and the time on it. But it's completely irrational because you're never going to recover that anyway. So a rational thinking is I am only going to count future costs and benefits. but that's not how we operate as people. So we will continue because of the sense of regret and feeling like a loss, even though that loss is that loss, you're never going to get it back.

You incur future losses, you throw good time and good money at the already sunk cost because you will not take that loss, even though you're definitely already taking that loss. And we do it in relationships. We say like, I can't have wasted that six years of my life. I can't have, but it's all that kind of fallacy of, there's some way to resurrect that loss if I just keep doing it, you know. It's that meme that everyone passes around that says something like, don't keep making a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it. I just have a different, I really, really have a very different idea about quitting. And I know, babe, that I was never an Olympian.

So this might be one of the reasons that I was never an Olympian. But I respect your point of view on quitting. I get it. I see the beauty that comes from that way of life. For me, I've been thinking a lot about why I believe so much in quitting as a really strong thing to do sometimes. And I think it's because so much of my life, I came to life because of a big quit, right? I mean, people who face a rock bottom in their life, like a major mental health crisis,

often have this gift. This gift comes with major breakdown, which is that you are one of the only humans who are lucky enough to be taught how to be human. It's like so many people never have the gift of everything falling apart and saying, oh, I can't do life, help me. People who go into recovery like I did, you know, tend to have programs and groups and therapy that teaches you how to be human, which we don't teach people in school. I was a third grade teacher. I remember, you know, teaching ancient Egypt hieroglyphics for six months, but never being like, here is a feeling,

here is a boundary. Here is what inevitably will happen when you're being human, right? So, so, you know, I learned that quitting for me meant means and meant it's like the ultimate responsibility to me. It's like the ultimate living responsibly. Because, through almost dying from addiction, I learned nobody's going to handle my shit for me. Like, I almost died. Like, nobody is going to look at my life and say, that's not working for you. That's not working for you. Nobody is going to protect me except for me.

So when something stops working for me, right, when something actually starts to affect my peace, it's my responsibility to stop it and start. something else. It's like the definition of the word responsible, meaning able to respond, right? Like when something, my job as a sober person is to protect my peace. And so when something, whether it's a relationship or a job or a way of life or an idea that threatens that stability for me, my job is to respond and get rid of it. So quitting for me feels like a powerful thing to do. What about you, sister? Well, I just, just think the quitting is such a fascinating word. It's like both over-inclusive and under-inclusive.

I mean, we use quitting for eliminating from our lives really, really harmful things. You know, you quit smoking, you quit drinking, you quit binging, you all of these things. And then we also use it for, you know, for jobs and for things that are that are irresponsible. You know, she promised to do that for me and then she just quit. So it's this kind of word that doesn't make any sense when we apply it to everything. I just wish there were different words to use for a positive, you know, congratulations. You let go of that thing that wasn't working for you. And then another one that was you really let yourself or other people down by not sitting with your discomfort enough to fulfill that for yourself.

I mean, it just seems like it's an odd. It's an odd word. So, but, and so I was thinking about that and I looked it up and the Latin origin of that of the word quit is quietest. And it actually means to set free. so it's to be free and clear of something and also the other origin of the word is calm and resting. So we took the idea of quitting and then it was only 700 years later where it started having this negative connotation. And that not to my mind coincidentally was during the Industrial Revolution. And it started to be like quitting time.

That means being free of work. being free, it's your resting time, it's quitting time from your job. And then it started to have this negative connotation at that point. So I feel like since that point, it's been like, what a quitter. You know, it's bad. Quitters are losers. Quitters are losers. That's when that came in because what you're saying is that when we became, when our worth as human beings became tied to productivity, it became important for the cultural idea to be never seen. stop. And if you stop, you're a loser. And if you keep going at all costs to your body, to your relationships to anything, you're a winner. Right. Right. If capitalism is the relentless

pursuit of productivity, any, any resting or being free from work is a loser's way of doing things. Amazing. What is your personal relationship with quitting? I think I have a very complicated. Well, I think I have a, I mean, I see what you're saying because much to the, way that you're saying your ultimate responsibility is not accepting. If you continue to do this, it will work out well. I feel like I have kind of, I have this, I have maybe swallowed that promise of if you show up, if you work hard, if you push through pain, if you can see it all the way through things will work out. And that is not necessarily true. But I think that I have kind of prided myself on that and I've stayed in some shitty situations because of it. But I think there's also this very,

very gray area, which is, for example, when I was working at the law firm and I was so freaking miserable and I remember I hated it so much. And you and mom, I feel like once a month would have this kind of like intervention with me and tell me to quit. And I remember just being so annoyed and frustrated by that because I was like, I am doing a thing here. I know what I'm doing. I am staying here because I am paying off my loans. I'm setting myself up to have the future freedom to do what I want to do. I'm taking care of my future self right now, even at the expense of my current self. And that actually, I don't know if that's a story I'm telling myself, but I do believe when I look at my life, that that did afford future self to freedom to myself. I was setting

myself free in the future in a way that had I just quit in that moment, I think I would still be tethered to so many debts and not have the freedom I have right now. So I think it's complicated. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge. You can and see what's clicking and where a little extra reinforcement could help. That's where I-Exel steps in, giving kids targeted practice so they can strengthen those areas early and keep moving forward with confidence. I-XL is an award-winning online learning platform that supports math, language arts, science, and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade.

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returns. Quince.com slash hard things. Do you feel that that every advantage also becomes a disadvantage in our lives? Like, do you feel that that theory that you have about your future, your present self's job is to prepare and work for your future self? Do you see that to not quit, no matter what your present self is saying to you, whether what your mind is saying, your feelings, your intuition, your body, your people, no matter what they're saying to you, you carry on because in some way, this will bring great reward to your future self. At what point does your present self ever get to be happy? Correct. That is,

so this is my ultimate, this is my existential fear of my entire existence, which is that I, love so much building a life that I don't ever live inside of one. So I have this kind of horizon view of life where I am always thinking what is going to be the next thing. What am I setting myself up for? I'm so fixated on that thing and how to get there that I never actually arrive there. And I never, because then I'm fixated on the next thing. And I am not seeing any part of the journey. And I'm not talking about enjoy every moment.

Like, Jesus. I'm talking about just even experiencing any of it or ever having any gratification in any of the episodic arrivals of what I had been pursuing. Because then it's just the next thing and the next thing. It reminds me of our great-grandfather. story about our grandfather who never took a day off of work, right? Remember, dad would tell us the story, never, ever took a day off of work so that one day he could travel with his wife, right? He wanted to retire a couple years earlier. He was storing them all up so he and,

he and my grandma could travel. Yep. And then she died. Oh, my God. And they never had it. And they never traveled. That is like the saddest thing. And you know what, sister, I think I, before I got sober, I had the opposite problem where I was just trying to live so much in the present that I didn't want to think about anything into the future. And like maybe there is some sort of middle ground here, right, where we're making days that are going to positively affect our future. Somehow, I don't know. I feel like you and I have opposite problems that if we just, we smushed together, we could become a perfect person. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting. It's like that, I think it's Annie Dillard who said, how we spend our days is how we spend our life. Like, we think about, you know, everybody's always saying, how do you avoid deathbed regret?

Like, that's what you're saying, sister, is like, how do you, what if one day on my deathbed, I regret never having lived this life that I'm so desperately trying to build constantly? And I'm so good at building. And the only way that I can think of to avoid deathbed regret is to avoid bedtime regret, right? which is trying to spend part of your days aligned with what you love. Well, it's true. And it's, so this is something that I just learned today. And I am, I'm wondering if this is going to freak you out with delight as much as it freaks me out.

Probably not. But. I'm so excited. I was thinking about this horizon thing and like, what the hell is wrong with me? Okay, this is what I learned. So if quitting is about, if quitting is the opposite of striving, okay? So you're continuing to try to strive for things. We view quitting as this kind of that's going to bias happiness, right? Positing the idea of quitting as if I am having a terrible experience, the quitting of it will release me from that terrible experience. I'm not sure. That is, first of all, big question mark. I mean, like everyone has this fantasy of I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to move to Bali. And I'm just going to like ride in a canoe or whatever the hell. Your fantasy is.

No, it doesn't work. I've moved everywhere. That's the destination life. That's like the tragedy of wherever you go there you are. So go ahead to see. Right. But I feel like that's an important part of the quitting. Whatever the fantasy we're holding up is, it assumes that it's going to be good for us. That it's going to get, you know.

So, hey, maybe not. I don't know. But there, okay, so there is this concept called hedonic. adaptation. Okay, just bear with me for a second. It's this idea that we adapt. So it's the idea that we have this baseline level of happiness, okay, that we return to. Okay. It doesn't matter the awesome or terrible things that happened to us. That there is only, so 50% of our total happiness is sheer genetics chemical makeup. that to me is like that might be like depressing to some people that is such a freaking relief it's like

all this idea of that like I am just one decision and one achievement away from happiness and that that's literally not true that I'm never going to be I'm literally just going to be as happy as I am and only 10% of happiness is due to circumstances so there's this like 40% that's within our control, okay, that we could like change something about our lives. But it's that everything that we do, including quitting your job, you have the fantasy of quitting your job, you have the fantasy of not being married to this person. It's going to change your life. Okay, maybe, but actually you just adapt that level of happiness into yourself and you reacclimate. And then the next thing, you acclimate that. Your, like, emotional self metabolizes that and you end up the exact same

level of happiness. Interesting. Okay. I feel that you are someone who has done some research to support your theory that quitting is not going to be helpful. I hear you. I feel like I want to get into one of the things that I want to ask you all, which is to think about some of you the best quits or the best non-quits in your life, right? I actually have made a few quits that I know dramatically affected my joy and freedom and power and peace. I don't know about happiness. I don't know what that is. But certainly, I would say quitting drinking, right, was the biggest, most important quit of my life. And like all important quits, I never think of it really as quitting. I think of it as starting something else, like starting down this path of sobriety.

Which I think is important, babe, to talk about the actual word itself. And like how we use it, actually, you might not even need to use the word quit, right? So I think that it's important. You got free from. You got free from. Yeah. Yeah. And every person has to define what that means for them because quit might be.

the complete opposite from one person to the next. Yeah. So I like that. Okay, so I freed myself from alcohol so that I could start living deeply. Leaving a broken marriage, right, was one of the best and most important and empowering quits of my life. I just remember being constantly so angry at my ex-husband, even after all the healing that we had done. and, you know, obsessing about the infidelity and so much more. And I remember one morning thinking the track in my head was, how could he do this to me? How could he have done this to me? How could he have done this to me?

That was in my head over and over again. And suddenly it just switched to, wait, how could I do this to me? Like, he's done and dust. There's nothing else he can do to undo that. I'm the one who continuously is choosing this every single day. I'm the one who's not being responsible to my own joy and my own peace and my own. That's right. You know, I mean, babe, you, I think rethinking the ending of a marriage, I think, is interesting.

We were talking to your friend recently. And she was reporting that one of your mutual friends was going through a divorce. And we were all sitting at a little table and you said, oh, my God, that's so sad. That's so sad. I feel so bad for her. And I just remember looking at you and just being like, I just want to rethink that compulsory reaction to divorce. Yeah. Like actually, you know, in some ways divorce is like always good because it's like clearly it was bad.

Clearly the relationship was bad. Like nobody wakes up in the morning. It's like, you know what? What the hell? We're bored. Let's get divorced. It's like the end of a long, you know, something. suffering, struggling road. And they say that it wouldn't end unless it was hard and bad because

otherwise it wouldn't end. Right. So sometimes, you know, I just remember thinking, looking at you and that reaction, we were all the compulsory reaction. Oh, it's so sad. I'm thinking, what if this is not sad at all? Like, what if this is the most strong, hopeful, creative triumph that this woman has ever had? What is this is the beginning of her life? Especially coming from me, somebody who has literally had the positive experience of divorce. Like, it's so ingrained in us. I've had the positive experience of divorce of like leaving a marriage, you leaving a marriage, and us finding something better and more true and beautiful. How could, and it's because it's so deep in all of us, this like, this narrative that we have about divorce. Yeah. Yeah. Stay even if you're

miserable. Stay even if you're a stay. Staying is winning, quitting is losing. Not my lived experience. right what about you all what are your um and and by the way let's mention that so much of this so much of this quitting ability to leave a job ability to leave a relationship ability to leave a toxic community ability that is so much based on privilege yeah right i was i was able to leave that marriage because i had savings because i had people helping me because i was able even you know i was thinking about this last night even quitting out of alcohol and drugs is based on privilege. I mean, I had access to therapy.

I had a car to get me to recovery meetings. Yes. Sister, what's a good quit of yours? Or Abby, do you want to go because you were just talking about marriage? Like, tell us a quitting story. Well, I mean, obviously, I feel like I'm the middle in between you and sister. Like, sister's hardcore never quit mentality. You're like quit every day.

I have learned lessons from both of these mentalities and have had positive reinforcements. And quite frankly, I think the reason why I was such a really big alcoholic is because I really, I was really a refusor of quitting. I was really righteous about this. Like, don't ever quit. When I dropped that narrative and I stepped into sobriety, it's the thing that I think I'm the most proud of in terms of. of moving beyond. You know, that was a season of my life. And I don't really love thinking about the regrets of my life.

The truth is, is I believe that our lives are our decisions in what we do. And quitting drinking was the thing that impacted my life the most. I was going through a really weird time that I quit playing soccer. and I quit traveling the world. I quit representing my country. I quit being a teammate. I quit a marriage. I quit drinking all within like a five-month period of my life.

And had I not done all of those things, Glennon, I met you like a month later. I think we would have missed each other. And so I attribute so much of my happiness now to moments where my life wasn't working for me in the way that it was presenting itself. And I had to make choices. And some of those choices involved quitting things that weren't serving me. And because of that, I was able to actually meet you where you were. So yeah, I've had some really good, good experiences with quitting. So I, and I see you actually one of the, you model it for me so often every night.

when like you power down and you run out of Glennon, I love that because I'm like, oh yeah, like we've had a day. Like we get to chill, right? In time. Yeah, I love it. What about you, sister? Well, I will just say. I will just say one aside.

Abby just talked about meeting you. I think in defense of not quitting, I would like to mention that the day you were scheduled to fly to the convention in which you met Abby for the first time. You did call me from the gate saying, please, you are my sister. You are my manager. What I am asking to do and what I need you to do is tell me that I do not have to get on this plane. My body is tired. I do not want to go.

I am done. Okay? Okay? I'll just say that. I'll just say that. In defense of not quitting. Thank you, sister. As you posit that, I would like to.

What is it when I try to undo the posit you just made? I would like to deposit this. Deposit. It's a new year, and instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my space to feel calmer, more functional, and a little more like a place that can reflect my goals and energy for this year, which is why I've been turning to way fair. It's truly a one-stop shop for everything your home needs this season. What surprised me most was how easy it was to find exactly what I wanted in my style and within my budget. Whether you're organizing kids' rooms, upgrading your work from home setup, tackling clutter,

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visit join midi.com today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's join midi.com. Midi, the care women deserve. That is so interesting because when I think about that moment, when I called you, I think I was like crying. I was so upset. And by the way, it was the first stop on my book tour. Yeah, it's not like it was a year in. It was the beginning. I know. But listen, I know what was happening at that point.

When I was about to go on a nationwide book tour to tell a story that I wasn't sure in my bones that I believed. I was about to tell the Love Warrior story, which was about the redemption of my marriage, and I didn't know really. at the end of the day, if it was redeemed or if I was just like forcing it to be real. So my body does, the ways that I know that I have to stop something, that something is not serving me is first I get really bitter and angry and defensive and nasty. I'm mad at everybody else. I can agree to this. Yes, for making me do things.

So this is stage one in which I have forgotten that I am a grown up and responsible for my own life and no one else is responsible. for my life. And everyone will always ask me to do a million things. And no one will save me but me. Okay. So I forget. And I'm mad at everyone else for not taking care of me. And then if I don't handle my business, soon enough, my body starts shutting down. I start getting totally exhausted. I start getting, right, babe? Yep. My, I will just. So I believe that that moment in that airport was like my body starting to reject the... what was coming. But thank God, sister, you football coached me up. You told me no guts, no glory.

It was time for a Hail Mary pass or something. I don't know, but I got on the damn plane, thank God. Hey, a Hail Mary pass. Right. See, that's, by the way, when, oh, you're Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary Abigail Wambach. Okay, sister, can you just tell us a story about maybe a good quit or a bad quit or something? a quitting story. Right. Well, I think no doubt the, if the being free from, the best being free from was stopping my lifestyle of binging and purging because that was just so all consuming. It was I wouldn't be doing anything with my life if I were still doing that. And then I think and leaving being free of my marriage was another. great one. I mean, none of these are in the quote unquote quit areas. They're just things to get

free from that we are very, that we had a prior commitment to pursuing. I think we view quitting as this random like it's either people or jobs or or substances where I feel like the work that could, that I could do most dramatically on my life are kind of quitting my commitment to ways of thinking about things. Oh, amen. Like what? Well, you know, like that idea of like constantly striving, like the thing, the happiness is just one, you know, once I start, once I start saving 100 bucks a month for college, for my kids college, I'll feel financially secure. Once I start, you know, once I fold all this laundry, my head will be in order. Once I, you know, just all, I mean, and then the longer term ones, because that's that same.

Because that leads to lack of rest. That leads to lack of freedom. It's like so much is ingrained in our commitment to continuing to believe and think with a certain framework that I think that the quitting, the setting free from is so much more expansive than the way we think about it. Sometimes I think that the relationship and the jobs are false. they're a little bit like false profits. Like if we, we are deeply set. And that's why I will continue to go back to my hedonic theory. Because I do think that we, that it is true that they said that the ways that you impact happiness. Like we think if we leave our job or some marriages, yes, you need to leave. Leaving my job was one of the best decisions I ever made, my other job.

But I also think that A, when you're in it and deciding to leave, are you. you taking, you know, is that in, in support of yourself? Are you, are you going to have the maximum freedom for yourself after? And then B, I think that they're kind of, we think, those are like the easy buttons in some ways. Yes. So, so I think when you say that, I think of when you said, if I quit my job, like every job, my job is too stressful, everything's too stressful. This is too hard. My job, my dream is to quit my job and become a gardener in, in Bali. Like you would be the most stressed out overproductive Bali Gardner that ever existed. Correct.

You would ruin your freaking Balinian life. Yeah. I would be kicked out of Bali. Yes. Yes. That's correct. So because the problem there would be that you switched the outer part of your life without switching the inner belief system that will make you bring that striving self to whatever

situation you're in and you're not, you're just rearranging chairs on the Titanic. And I think that that's liberate. I think, I mean, for anyone who is listening to this, it's like me, please find the liberation in this theory. It's that like I always thought I have all these wonderful things. I have all the ingredients of a happy life, of a life that for someone who should be very happy and grateful. But yet I am not happy and grateful and there is something deeply broken about me. But then I think, no, guess what? the science is telling me

I just, whatever your universe is, you acclimate to it and it becomes your new baseline. Okay? So there's not something wrong with you that you're not feeling this deep abiding sunshine worth of gratitude all the time. That the only things that are, you're constantly looking for the next thing.

So the only things that actually are susceptible to not this hedonic adaptation are just a few things. One of them is this idea of gratifications. If you can find something that is challenging for you that you get lost in, that is something that doesn't, it doesn't metabolize. Like you can keep doing it. And also the experiences, like what you're saying about quitting and actually living in your experiences and being grateful for it.

And I also think that one of the reasons that I have gratitude for my marriage in my job are because I had a super shitty marriage and a super shitty job. Like, I can compare those things in a way that gives me gratitude because of having had them. Yes, for everyone who is going through shit. Like, it's the idea of nobody enjoys the sun more than somebody who was in the rain for a really, really long time. That is, Abby and I talk about that all the time. I mean, we're so grateful for having had first marriages that did not serve us because we wake up grateful every day, right?

I mean, I'm grateful to be in California right now. Our kids are so grateful. Every time we walk by a pride flag, every time we see, you know, different sorts of people, like we just feel grateful in a way that people who have lived here for a long time probably would think was wild. But it's because of where we came from, right? that makes, and, you know, this idea of forcing time into our lives to quit producing and enjoy, you know, I'm such a Bible nerd, you know, that I just learned this so early. It's in the rhythm of creation, right? It's like the poem and the Bible about like how anything gets made is like, you work, you work,

and then you stop and you rest and you call it good. And you don't stop and rest and call it good because you like ran out of, Red Bull and you stop and rest and call it good because it's part of the creative process, right? That is part of it. It's not breaking from creating. It's part of it. It's like this idea that the potential for the next thing is all in the stillness and the quiet and the enjoyment of this of this moment right now. That's good. Right. And if we don't look at what we've made and we don't look at our lives and our people and soak them in, then we're like that. We're like, that our grandfather who's just saving up for one day.

Well, and you have to enjoy your people. You have to examine the narrative that you have of yourself and the definitions that you have around this idea of quitting, right? Like, I mean, sister, I think that what you said is so profound. You two want in like the stillness and the quiet helps you recover so that you can begin again tomorrow. And then the idea of like the idea of changing your thoughts around stuff. and quitting those things are doable.

Like this is what I think is so important as a recovered person. I had to actually recreate a narrative of myself like that I was and could be a sober person before I ended up being a sober person. Like it happened in a very short period of time sitting in jail after my DUI. But like I had to like create that narrative for myself real quick and be like, wait, I have to be a sober person now. That's my path. And that first, like, you can do that work. And you don't have to tell anybody about it. Right. That's the beauty of, like, changing your life or quitting things. It's not, you're not like buying a ticket into a new life until you actually start doing it, but you can do it privately first. I love that. You guys are making me think about the idea of quitting being internal before it's even external. Okay, let's jump on to some hard cues. I'm going to read one first and then we'll get into some voicemails. But I liked this right in. How do we know when we're quitting because it's wrong for us or just because it's hard for us?

So the question is, do I want to become free of this thing because this thing is hard for me? Or do I want to become free of this thing because this thing is not for me? It is wrong for me. That's the question? Well, I think you just answered the question. Yeah, I think so too, actually. I mean, I think maybe the way we know, because I want to quit things, I will say, I want to quit things often that I do not quit. I mean, writing a book is hard. Raising kids is hard.

Like, staying sober is hard. There are things that I continue to do every day even when I want to quit. So how do I know whether the thing I want to quit is correct to quit? because how do I know whether it's just, whether it's wrong for me or hard for me? And I think the answer is what you just said, sister, you ask yourself this question, which is what was it again? Do I want to be free of this thing because it is a hard thing for me? Or do I want to be free of this thing because it is the wrong thing for me?

That's so good. That's so good. Also, when you think about acquit or pivot or whatever we want to call it or freeing ourselves from something, does it feel like joy? Like, does it feel lighter? Does it feel happy? Or does it feel like a loss? I think that in my, to answer the question, because I'll do it, I like to think five years down the road. And what kind of person do I want to be in five years down the road? And how can that person incite some of or inform some of the decisions that I'm making today? So like, amazing. I think of the opposite. I want to be a person who has run a marathon. Like, that's what I'm

thinking about right now. And every single day when I'm running these programs and this training program that I'm doing, I want to stop running. I want to not run anymore. But I want to be a person in a few years that has ran a marathon. So I'm going to keep able to endure those moments where I do want to give up. Because I also think managing what you know is good for you and figuring out, what is good for you is really important to deciphering kind of the answer to this question. If you're a business owner who knows nothing about AI and feels really out of the loop, you're not alone. In today's data-driven world, you really need to understand your customers, and NetSuite can deliver those insights with zero fuss. No more waiting. With NetSuite, you can integrate

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com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed, in-network therapists without all the runaround. You can browse without even making an account, and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience, whatever helps you feel understood. Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97%

say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello-a-l-m-a-com slash W-E-C-A-N. Okay, let's move on to Sarah. My name is Sarah. I'm leaving a stable government job this month to pursue

my career in art. It's something that's taken a lot of time to me to realize that this is what I want to do. And I'm excited about it, but I'm mostly terrified and overwhelmed. I'm feeling like I'm not fully ready or fully established enough to do this. But I also feel that it's necessary, and I know that I need to take risk and jump in both feet. I'm just having a hard time trusting myself and trusting the people that are offering me their help. So I'm wondering if you're able to speak to any of these feelings. Thanks so much and I hope you both have a good day. Oh my gosh. That's so cool by the way. Yay.

Oh, wow. So brave. So brave. It's so interesting that she's kind of framing it as like she's quitting her job. So could she, should she quit her job or should she not quit? But the truth is it by if she stayed in her job, she'd also be quitting in a way because she said that she's been excited and preparing and her heart wants this art thing for so long that that she'd be quitting that if she stayed at her job. So it's just like a different way of framing it to say which one do you want to quit, Sarah? It sounds like it sounds like you're deciding that being free of the one allows you to not

quit the other. And that sounds amazing. let's just frame everything that way, sister. Like, let's frame every decision as it's quitting either way. So you quit the job or you quit your dream of art. Like, which quit? Which quit? So it's like when people say, you know, I want to leave this toxic relationship,

but it's just, it's too hard. It's too hard to leave. And it's like, well, isn't it hard to stay? Like, it's hard either way. you're going to quit the relationship or are you going to quit your idea that you deserve to be loved well? Right? It's like, I'm too scared to say the hard thing. And it's like, yeah, saying the hard thing and rocking the boat is hard, but so is, you know, swallowing it and slowly dying inside. So which hard are you going to pick? So Sarah, we, that we can do hard things, think you picked the right

quit. Also, just a note on her saying that she's not fully ready or she doesn't know if she has enough experience, I would say, Sarah, be like a man and assume that you are qualified and ready and prepared for all of the things. I mean, I forget what the statistic is. It's like after reading qualifications for a job, it's something like 41% of women will not apply for it because they've read the qualifications and they have deemed themselves unqualified. Whereas the people with the exact same level of qualifications who are men will say, yeah, good, I got it. So don't, don't call yourself out. You are more than ready. No one's ever 100% ready. Go get it. And then share your art with us. Yeah. And being terrified, being terrified, just know this, because I

quit my job five years ago. Being terrified is a constant for a pretty long while. So it's just, nobody says that. Like, I think that that's like such a disservice that we, we, we, give people, oh yeah, like, just focus on the positive. Like, you're going to be terrified. You're probably going to feel really overwhelmed. And you're probably going to question this choice for a while no matter what. And so just like settle into that and just expect that. Because if you can expect that, goodness will come. It just will. I just know it. Yeah. That's the right kind of hard. Right kind of hard. Yeah. Okay. Let's move on to Bridget.

Hi there, this is Bridget. Um, Brennan, thank you for doing everything that we do. And what I've been struggling with it lately is all the change with my teenage daughter. The big one that has shown up for us is my younger daughter, uh, is a junior. She plays, club soccer has played the whole life since she was 60 years old. Um, she is on a national. nationally ranked team,

we're in Michigan, and her team won state cup, two years in a row. And she wants to quit in her final year, her senior year, it's called soccer. And I tried to beg her,

I tried to punish her, I tried to bribe her, and she is just really digging in her heel that she doesn't enjoy it anymore. And I know that that is tough for her to do, and it's probably the right thing for her to do is quit, but I just am so entrenched in this life, and I feel embarrassment and a little bit of shame with all those soccer parents and not being a part of that anymore. So I really just

appreciate some words of this. Thank you so much. So Abby, I think as the soccer as an expert, you might want to jump in. I just want to say real quick that I love Bridget's honesty. Yeah. I love that she freaking admitted that she bribed and threatened her child. I mean, Bridgett, yes to that kind of honesty. Yes to admitting that sometimes it's like you don't want your kid to quit something because it's your life that they're messing up. Just yes to Bridget. Abby, what do you think? Well, I'm all for kids and girls especially to play sports. I think that it's breakthrough for so many things. It gives little girls and however you fall in the gender lines.

It gives young kids more confidence, self-esteem, all of those things. But if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it. You can't force your kid to do something because it's giving you an identity. Like that's just we can't be living vicariously through our kids in that way. you know, when our kids do something great, I really force myself to say, I'm so happy for you. Yeah, you do do that. It separates myself and my impact with them and their whatever it is that we're celebrating. Because when we say, I'm proud of you, then they think, oh, I got to keep doing this thing to make my mom proud.

Yeah. To me, I think what I hear Bridgett saying is that they've been through a lot with this decision. It doesn't sound impulsive. It sounds like she has, you know, gone through a lot of checking to make sure that her daughter is saying this is the wrong thing for her and not just a hard thing for her. And it sounds like her daughter knows what she wants. I mean, we think all the time about, you know, maybe looking to the future, maybe looking to the future and deciding what Bridget wants her little girl or her big girl to be basing her decisions upon. and if this girl is willing to disappoint her team, disappoint her mother,

disappoint all of these people so that she doesn't disappoint herself? I can't imagine how hard it is for Bridget. I mean, I'm just, my heart is in knots thinking about the actual real grief and mourning that you would have. Whenever you have, you know, it's hard not to dream through your kids. when we're being totally honest, we have these dreams for them. We see them. We see their 10 years ahead self, just like we see our 10 years ahead self. I think it's really, I think there's a major loss there in terms of what they've been building,

what the community they've been building, the fear that will she regret it? Should I make her? Because maybe this is her gift. And I'm allowing her to, I'm allowing her to step away from her gift. and will she come back in five years and say, why did you let me give that up? I was so good. That was my thing. So I just think I understand why it's so hard and I understand why it's a deep grieving process for losing your dream on behalf of your kid and letting them have their own dream instead. That's really, I think probably hard and probably like the whole crux of parenting,

letting your kids have the life they choose rather than the life that you were. were building and already attached to that you had planned for them. You know what we say? You know what we say, babe? My job is your parent is to help you create the truest, most beautiful life you can imagine. So here is the truest most beautiful life I have imagined for you. Let's go get it.

I'm going to do everything I can to make all my dreams for you come true. That's exactly. Please join my dreams for you. The paradox of this. too is that Bridget wants to have raised a daughter who can stand up on her own two feet and say the thing that she needs to say to get the life that she wants. And here she's doing it. It worked. It worked too well. It worked too well. Good news, bad news, bridge. Your girl's a badass. You did a good job, Bridge.

Yes. How sad when our children become the people we dreamed they'd be. They actually do what we taught them to do. Okay. Our next right thing this week is this. I'm not going to give you any homework. It's too hard. We're going to quit hard things today because we can quit hard things.

There is no homework. You've already done your homework, which is that you learned this. Tell us one more time, sister, what the definition, the original definition. The original definition of quitting was. To be set free from, to be calm, to rest. That was the origin of quit. For 700 years until like a hot minute ago. Yeah.

So is there anything you need to set yourself free from? And when things get you hard this week, don't forget, we can quit hard things. Love you. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in part. partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.