We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 170. The Most Radical Way to Heal: Internal Family Systems with Dr. Becky Kennedy

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

1. How to make peace inside your own head by getting to know your “parts.” 2. Why our “manager,” “firefighter,” and “exile” parts are running our lives – and how to get them to step back. 3. How Glennon is using Internal Family Systems in her eating disorder recovery process. 4. Understanding that the parts of you that you might struggle with most right now were originally developed by you to protect you. 5. How to tap into your wisest, most trustworthy self. About Dr. Becky: Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and mom of three, named “The Millennial Parenting Whisperer” by TIME Magazine.Dr. Becky is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be and founder of the Good Inside Membership platform, a hub with Dr. Becky’s complete parenting content collection all in one place. Her podcast “Good Inside with Dr. Becky” – was one of Apple Podcasts “Best Shows of 2021.” TW: @goodinside IG: @drbeckyatgoodinside

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are back with one of our favorite detectives of life, brilliant minds who help us figure out who we are, Dr. Becky. If you did not listen to the last episode, please go back and listen to our episode about attachment because it's going to help you understand this one. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, Mom of Three, has been named the Millennium. Parenting Whisper by Time Magazine. Dr. Becky is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller Good Inside, The Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, and founder of the Good Inside membership platform, a hub with Dr. Becky's complete parenting content collection all in one place. Her podcast, Good Inside with Dr. Becky, was one of Apple Podcast's best shows

of 2021. Dr. Becky, thank you so much for being back with us today. So happy to be here. So I reached out to you a while back and asked you if you would come on the pod to talk to us about something called internal family systems. This is a theory. It's an approach to therapy. I'm going to give you my idea of it because I have been interested in internal family systems since you told me on episode 130 and 131. that it is often used with eating disorders. And Dr. Becky, as an aside, I have talked to the pod squad already this year about how I am back in intense therapy because of my recent diagnosis with anorexia. So I am in this shit right now. I am in the shit. As opposed to all the other times when we haven't been in the shit, Dr.

when we've been easy, breezy and fine and I've had things figured out, you might be surprised to know. So the idea of internal family systems, the way my therapist started talking to me and eased me into this is I would say, I don't have a problem. I'm fine in a million different ways. And she would say, okay, friend, why don't you talk to me about the voice inside your head that speaks to you whenever you want to eat or experience food or, and I would tell her the voice what the voice would say. And she would say, okay, so if one of your daughters told you that that voice was coming up in her head, what would you say to your daughter? And I would say, well, I would immediately understand that that voice was unhealthy and not free. And I would be very upset. And then so my therapist would say, okay, so then can you understand that maybe you have a voice inside your head that is not helpful to you? and perhaps that self, that voice that is that self was developed in childhood to protect you from

something which led us to this idea of internal family systems and the idea that our minds are multiple, which is not a new idea. It's just that we have many different selves inside of us. And that our mental system is actually more like a family than it is like in individual. Can you explain that? Yes. Yes. So I didn't study IFS in grad school. I don't know if it wasn't as big then. It's still like it's becoming increasingly popular, which is just amazing. But Dick Schwartz is the author of all things family systems. And really, I feel like he understands the human mind in a way that is so unique. And everyone I know who reads his book or learns

IFS is like, this just makes sense. It makes so much sense. Your body's like, yes. It just speaks to how we're organized, right? So I think the main idea, really, of IFS is that the mind is multiple, and that everyone both has a self, and that's a capital S in IFS, and everyone has parts. I think when we think about the word parts, we think multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia and there's a real pathologizing. I think Dick Schwartz would say that's a very extreme version. of parts. Some adaptations early on had to be so extreme. And everybody has parts. And most of our kind of, quote, symptoms or our moments of reactivity, i.e. triggers when we're like, oh, geez, why did I say that? I never wanted to say that. I didn't want to react that way. I just turned into a

version of myself. I don't even recognize those words. I think those are keywords of, oh, and the way I envision it is a part of me. kind of who should have a rightful seat at the boardroom table in my life, they just took over the CEO, right? That's what happened. They just took over the driver's seat. And the theory is that there's no bad parts. There's no bad parts.

Some parts have been forced into extreme roles that they don't even want to play and would relinquish if they felt like their role wasn't necessary for the system to protect you. They're protecting you. Yes. All the parts are trying to protect you. Yes. And they legitimately did protect you. Yes. For the majority of the years where you were learning about what was safe in the world when you were utterly dependent. So in adulthood, those extreme parts probably no longer protect you in reality, at least not in their extreme sense. And yet, as we've talked about, the systems, the parts that wired early, to protect us, understandably, are hesitant to let go. And yet they can when they start to see that

the system and the self can be safe. And then they can take on different, less extremals. Yes. It's so funny, Glenn, the way you explained it, because we both studied this. And I don't relate to how you expressed it at all. And I think it's so funny the way our minds works so differently. So can I say my way just in case? And then I want to. Just in case people understand different, don't speak Glennon, speak Amanda. Okay. So we are all arranged of all of these parts.

All of these parts are equally beneficial to us. When we come in this world, they are all equally valuable. Then as we experience attachment injuries, as we experience traumas, the parts that experience those traumas and injuries or they're shamed out of us, which is all the way of saying the same thing, right? They step into a role to protect us. So they have been shamed now that original role becomes a role to protect us. So in Schwartz's language, that's burdens.

They take on burdens as a result of those injuries. And they take that job very seriously. And they hold on to it and do whatever is necessary to do it. Now, the role that first protected us become roles that hurt us later on. Okay. So as they're hurting us, we say, whether it's an eating disorder, whether it's an addiction or whatever, we are told by the world, hey, ignore that part of you. That part of you is bad.

That part of you is creating pain for you and for everyone around you. Just tell it to shut up that part. That's the bad part of you. Focus on these other parts of you. But when we starve any part of ourselves, they just get stronger trying to get our attention because every part is equally valuable and beneficial to us. So we try to starve it out. It just takes over.

And so that's why we have to look beneath it and say, what are you trying to protect it? What are you trying to say? And when we unburdened that part, that part shows up. in our life in a way that's actually helpful to us. There is a truth here that it's not even mine. It is. I think Dick says we're all born with parts, that the goal, like everyone has parts and everyone has a self.

Both are true. And then the goal is not to ever get rid of parts because, yeah, one way of thinking about a part could be an intense feeling. Let's say like anger. Okay. So instead of thinking of anger, because it is kind of this like amorphous, okay, what if there's a part of me? That feels anger.

let's say that. That's different from the self. Yes, I always think it's like the sturdiest leader is self. It's very grounded, very present, calm, confident, capable, compassionate, all the things. And then, yes, what happens is there's a kind of multi-layered system to protect us if those parts weren't received in attachment, if those parts have to be kept away. And now think about, let's say my angry part had to learn basically to closet itself. Like get into the closet, that is not safe here. Well, how would your body manage that? And in IFS theory, there's two ways. And it makes sense. Number one is these parts called managers. Managers are the day-to-day things you do to keep your exiled parts, the anger in the closet. So maybe you stay very, very busy.

You're always busying yourself with a million different things. Maybe you're very perfectionistic. Again, it's just a way to kind of keep the mind going, going, going. Maybe you're very obsessive. That would be a manager part. Okay. What about when the managers, like once in a while, the managers, they struggle. They get tired.

You know, they take a rest. And then that exile, that anger comes out of the closet. Oh, no. Then we have another part, a firefighter part. A firefighter part is not proactive in keeping it in the closet. It is reactive. That's why they act intensely. Drug use.

Oh, that is a fast way to get rid of a feeling. Being perfectionistic isn't a fast way to get rid of a feeling. It's just a way to like kind of keep feelings at bay. But I don't know, you know, taking a hit of something. Oh, that's going to work like, okay, that's a firefighter. Just like being a firefighter in a situation, there's a more impact right away of that. You're probably going to spray the extinguisher and probably messy some other things in the house. But at least it did its core function, which was an extreme reaction to the part that is,

not safe. The exile parts, where all the trauma is, all the sadness, all the depth, all the, I call it kind of the canyon of purple, glitterly black, fuzz, like whatever the over the canyon is, is the exiled parts of us are the managers and the firefighters, their jobs really are to protect us from the exile, to not feel what the exile feels. The managers do it by control and the firefighters do it by setting things on fire so that we are distracted from the exiles pain. Yes. Yes. I think that's all, that's all right. Okay. So like for my eating disorder stuff, this is how I feel like, and I know this is not exactly it, but I feel like I thought I had dealt with my shit. And what I found out was that the exile part, that was where my bulimia was. And I never went far enough into the exile to heal the exile part of me that wanted to be heard, that wanted to be understood, that wanted to be revisited, that wanted to discuss that trauma that wound us up there. But I never did that. I just put. my managers on high, high, high function. I just became anorexic.

Anorexia is a high, freaking, level manager that's like, we will control this shit so that we never have to go back to the exile. So now the work is to let the exile, like, I feel like poetry to me is, is I can be in my exile parts. So then I have to delve into poetry where I can let the exile part of me speak. Is that the goal of internal family systems is to reach into the exile parts of you and allow them to come to the surface without having to manage or firefight them away? The way I think about it is it's just bringing a little bit more homeostasis to the whole system.

So it's to get to know your part. So even Glenn and what you were saying, it's like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Like I'm fine. Right. And you can look at the part that talks to you around food, which maybe you said is the messed up part. But I also think of very like, IFS informed intervention. We're like, let's just stay with that part of you right now. that it's fine part. Get to know that part. When we're struggling, often our parts only know each other and they hate each other. They don't like each other. The part of you that says, I'm fine, hates the part of you. That's not fine. And probably the part of you that's not fine, hates the part. That's always like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. That neither in some ways are held in self. Self, right? And the intervention with it there was like, tell me about that.

That must be really, that must be, you must be an important part of this system. I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah, yeah. Like look at me in my amazing podcast. and bestselling book, I'm fine, how could I not be fine? And would be very curious to get to know that part. What would happen if you weren't doing your job of telling everyone how fine you are? What might happen? You must be worried about something and exploring that. Maybe to the point, even in a session, I'd be like, I wonder if now that we understand more about what the worry is, right, maybe a therapist may even say, like, we can even do ourselves, like, that biggest fear, I won't let that happen. I'm not going to let, could you, and this is such beautiful language,

and it's so powerful to speak to yourself, I'm going to ask, part of you that says everything's fine, she would step back. Just step back. Make a little space for this other part of you that says comes up around food that says, I don't know, awful things to yourself, whatever it is. Let's just get to know that part for a little bit. And you're restructuring what's happening because you start to connect and be curious about and be compassion about these parts, instead of these parts only warring with you. Yes, because if you live with a constantly self-critical voice in your head, which I do, that part is attacking the part of you that deals with the addiction.

And then you have the other part that is the hyper-control manager, which is dealing with your addiction. And the critic is berating you for your addiction. and all of the parts are at war. And I think one of the goals, Abby, is that letting the parts stop being at war and be at peace and take the role that is actually beneficial to because then that allows them to trust that the self can lead.

Because right now no one's leading. It's just a bunch of warring parts. But when you get to the core self, your self knows how to heal. Your self knows how to lead you. but it can't when all of the parts of you are at war. And not feeling heard. Right.

And like a good leader is one that sits at the head of the table and make sure that everybody at the table is heard first and not suppressed and then makes the decision. But when you're trying to pretend that your exile doesn't exist, because the truth is they are all there. Like even those bastards in your head that are like, don't try anything. Don't show up. Don't whatever. When you ask it, why are you saying that? It's trying to protect you.

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home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R-com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Just for everyone listening, I think what's really important, and we can do some exercises here, is just starting to use the language of parts, like managers, exiles, firefighters, self. I know for me when I started even as psychologist, I was like, what the heck is this brilliant man talking about? It's just a lot. It almost doesn't matter as much as the foundation of There are parts of me and I can start to relate to parts of me because the beauty, as soon as you say to yourself, something like, oh, hi jealousy, oh, high insecurity, you are doing something massive in your body. The jealousy is no longer all of you because you are in a relationship with it. You have just assumed CEO's seat by saying hello to it.

And it's going to be in the room. Jealousy has a role at the table. Anger has a role at the table. Listening and understanding someone's role does not mean they get to dictate decisions. But as soon as you do that, I actually think visually, I always in picture it. Like, I say this to myself all the time when I wake up with like a panic thought at like 4.30 the morning and I'm like, I got to start working, you know. And I do. I put my hand on my heart.

High anxiety, you old friend. It's you again, you know? And as soon as there's a humor to it, you know, you must be worried about something. You think I always have to, like, write and write and get something done. I get it. You're trying to help me. And even for me, this is early. Even from not, I often say to my body, I'm not taking your first offer.

This is your first offer is 430. That's good. You know? And I'm just going to ask you to step back. I'm safe. And even if I don't fall back asleep, I'm just going to stay in bed. a little longer, right? Versus the panic, it really does take over my body. I am not present. That part of me, whatever you want to call it, exile, it's a lot of lingo. I think it's fascinating.

Anyone, I think go get internal family systems. No, I don't get some type of kickback. I just think it's really an amazing thing. I wish I did, okay, but I don't. But just starting to talk to yourself. And it's going to sound so cheesy, but my five-year-old at night talks to his worry boy. before he goes to sleep. His worry boy, is that what you said? His worry boy. And I was like, if there's one thing that's going to make you quote, do well in life, it's like knowing this stuff when you're young, right? Because he has worried thoughts.

And so every night for a period, he'd say, he can say this himself. He'd say, hi, worry boy, you're a part of me and not all of me. And you get loud at night. And I also have happy thoughts, boy. He's there. He's just not as loud at night. And I'm safe and I hear you. And it's okay to go to bed. Like he really, like, it's profound. It is so powerful. And kids eat it up. I mean, I can do a whole exercise. I'm obsessed at so many parents. Teaching your kid about perfect girl or perfect boy or perfect kid, whatever your kid identifies at in terms of perfectionism and how they relate to their homework and how to anticipate perfect voice coming up at the whole. hard math problem and what we say to perfect voice and how when that voice steps back, we might be

able to find this is hard and you'll love this. And I can do hard things voice, right? That is a part of you also that's often crowded out by perfect voice. So I think IFS to everyone, it can just be a kind of an entrance into the language of parts. Pod Squad, just the importance of this is what we talk about with mindfulness. It's what we talk about everything. It's giving a picture in your mind or your kid's mind or whoever of what you are, which is a table. And you want to picture your wisest, most beautiful. We're talking like Oprah is at the head of the table. Some kind of like wise in their body, benevolent. That is you. You and you are Oprah. That's the takeaway. Yourself is. is this, the wisest you you could ever imagine, the calmest, most grounded, most okay,

you're at the head. But the part of being human is that there are a bunch of parts at your table. And what Dr. Becky is saying when she says, high anxiety, high perfect boy, I see you, in that moment, she is creating the space to know that she is not that part. If I am the one observing the part, I immediately am not the part. I'm Oprah at the head of my table. So I have suddenly shifted my consciousness from I'm anxious, I'm scared, I'm jealous, oh, no, no, no, hi anxiety, hi jealousy, I'm fucking Oprah. I'm fucking Oprah.

And so I am going to listen to all of you because I know you're my advisors and I know you have things to say. And then I am going to bestow upon us what we are going to do next. And we are going to live our best life. Right. Because we are Oprah. Right. Yes. And everyone gets a car.

Excite gets a car. All the parks. Anger gets a car. But it's so beautiful. I just want to ask a quick question just to break it down to more granular simpler. Because I know for me, this feels like a lot. Love you guys. You're very smart.

But I think it's important to kind of understand how do we determine. the parts. Because for me, I might not be able to, in the moment, like, oh, that's jealousy. Like, what are some exercises we can do to figure out what the parts are sitting at the table with us with open?

I actually think the most practical way, too, I always, same thing, just like, what's pragmatic? What's easiest here? Okay? Lowest lift is to actually start to learn the qualities that let you know you're in self. Because the other moments

were probably noticing a part. Oh, good. So I said to Dick many times, I was like, how did you get all the words to represent self to start with a tree? Like, how did the lexicon work for you that way? You're a magician, okay? Because the qualities of self are the following, all of which begin to see. And those are compassion, connectedness, curiosity, clarity, calm, confidence, courage, and creativity. Now, I know if you're like all of us on this body, you're like, I've never accepted.

experience all those things at once. So when you're reactive, when you have one of those moments where it's not even like you're, you're like, you're like, I just did something. That's what it often feels like when you noticed a part. Or my partner's coming home and you just, you feel the, you're about to rage, you know, you're like, oh, am I confident and clear right now? Like, yeah, Probably. Not exactly. And when we act from a part, it is like, you know, I know he talks about the orchestra. It's like the violinist became the conductor.

The violinist is important, but it's not meant to be the conductor. The associate who's giving you input at the boardroom table is not meant to be the CEO. Now, that does it mean maybe, it's not to say you're not really pissed at your partner for whatever you're pissed at. But nobody I know feels great, raging at someone. They feel good being like, what am I, what am I angry at? Okay. I'm curious. I'm in a relationship with this anger. Huh. I'm noticing anger. What is it telling me? Oh, my partner said they'd be home for bath time. And once again, I did the kids bath by myself. Yeah, I am angry about that. Okay. Knowing that, I don't know, what am I looking for? I, and this relates to attachment too. If I have learned that anger, is allowed within an attachment back from my earliest years, then I in self can be in relationship with my angry part. If I learned, yeah, threat, threat, danger, danger,

my family never differentiated between angry behavior, which came because I wasn't yet able to regulate anger, but there was no differentiated to angry behavior and angry feelings. So I had to keep the feeling away because it's what led to the behavior in my mind and I never learned skill. So just get out with the anger. Well, now when I'm angry, anger, we can't beat our feelings. So they're there. So if we can't erase them, then guess what?

They never got attachment. I often think with a feeling that ever got attachment, it never got cushioned in like a loving way. Not suppressed. It never got a cushion. So when it comes up, it takes over my whole body. That part takes over the CEO's seat. So I think a way to know it's something as a part is when you're like, yet nothing right now feels those C words.

And also, we tend not to want to get to know that feeling. If it's like, yeah, I want to keep that away. Yeah, no. If I can't be curious about it. Yeah. Then that lets me know that a part has taken over. Follow up question. Okay.

The anger comes up in the world in which we will. want to that Oprah. Can I just explain what I mean by Oprah? I've never seen someone the way that she, I'm thinking of this literally. She sits at the head of a table. She is in complete presence. She is in complete openness and curiosity. She takes in everyone's thing at the table with openness, curiosity, kindness. And then you can see her filtering it all out. And then she delivers what's going to happen. And so she's not trying to please anybody. She's just in her groundedness. then she decides. She's like filters it all and decides. So that's what I mean by being Oprah at the head of the table. So the anger comes up. Is it the goal to just be in conversation with the anger as

the feeling arises, allow your higher self to control or or take over, so to speak, and to not be outwardly angry, to not, I just, I'm curious, like feelings are happening. These parts are happening, what is the ultimate goal is to have a conversation with it and not let it actually come out or is to let it come out? I'm confused by that. So I think that's such a good question. I think, look, I think anger is such a good example because I think in our culture, if any of us like, could you actually make a list of like healthy ways to actually express anger or relational anger? I think a lot of us would be like, I don't know like that many. It's a really hard feeling. It's when our needs aren't being met, right? It's like so primal. If I think,

about anger in general. Yeah, we would want anger. If anger is about, I am not getting my needs met. I think that's like at our core. There's something's getting in the way of getting my needs met. Yeah, I then want to express that in a way that's going to get closer to getting my needs met. Okay. So I really need my partner to come home earlier to help me at night. So what's my need? I'm very angry that they didn't. Totally make sense. What is my need? Well, my need is for them to get home. earlier. And I think like the hard part and it's like, oh man, it's like, well, what is the most effective way of actually getting my need met? Not what's just going to feel amazing to like vomit out of my body. Like I know that. But it's definitely probably not the same thing as effectiveness

in actually getting my need met. And so if our feelings, their function is data. They're such important data for us. And then often we like to use data in effective ways. So if we're interested in effectiveness, then being kind of, yeah, in conversation with your angry part would allow you to get closer to what your needs. And then you'd want to approach someone else in a way that adequately express what your needs were and actually had the highest likelihood of having them meet your needs the next time. Can I give you an example, Abby, of the way I think about it? So you know how Glenn and I have this need for everything to be perfect, the hypervigilance of like that person over there is doing something wrong or that's going to, upset us or every the person in the restaurant or the person is talking too loud on the plane and this thing that is the opposite of calm and, um, confident. So these parts are frozen in time. So they are stuck at the time of the attachment injury, stuck at the time of whatever trauma or whatever is shamed out of you. So if that happens at five years old, you think you are five years old

in that moment and that you are as vulnerable now as you were then, that you're living in this moment, it is as dangerous. The lack of this situation being perfect around me is as dangerous to me as it was when I was five. Okay, so that is the irrational, but very rational protection that's happening. Yes. And so what you want to do is convince yourself this does not have to be perfect for me to be safe. I do not have to activate you, darling, darling part of me that is trying to make this all safe around me right now so that we will be safe right now so that there won't be an eruption from a family member so that it won't all go to shit around me. I don't need that from you anymore. It is not dangerous like that anymore. We are safe. So I'm going to

liberate you part of me to be inside of me what I need you to be now because I don't need that from you anymore. Taking away the burden. And I think what Dick Chord says so, it's so beautiful is like how we understand people. It's like that part of you that yes is kind of frozen at the age at which they were forced into their extreme role. They've done such a good job protecting you. They've never looked back at you to notice that you're getting older. They're outward facing to the world. That's what you do if you protect someone from threat. You're not looking at them behind you if you're protecting your bear cub. You're looking at everything else but your bear cub. And so in that time, you haven't noticed. And so there's language really to say like, hey,

this might sound surprising to you. I'm 40 years old. I'm 50 years old. It's 2023. I know. I know. And I always, I don't know if he says this. I always say this to my parts and I love this language. Like, I want to thank you for your years of service. You've been so vital. And I don't expect you to totally stand down. I'll show you over time that I'm strong, I'm capable, I'm an adult. And I can get through a plane flight where there's a little bit of chaos around. It's so, just I don't even know the word. Like our parts, they truly receive that language. Yeah. They're waiting for that language. And the person at the head of the table can even speak to the future. Yes.

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can't get bigger. Your attachment will be threatened if you eat too much. If you get bigger, I'm trying to keep you safe. And P.S., the whole rest of your life, that has been confirmed. It's not just your original family, that your culture, I'm trying to keep you safe as a public figure woman. I'm trying to keep you safe from criticism. I'm trying to make you attractive to the world, this voice has gotten louder and louder over time. And sometimes the voice is right in many, many ways. And so the person at the head of the table can say, we are so wise that actually, I hear you, you're right. My Oprah at the table is not always saying to my part, oh, silly thing. It's, you know, that was, that was what you needed when you were younger. But a grown woman doesn't

need that anymore because my wise voice knows that that's not true. That actually in the culture we're in right now, it is safer to have one specific kind of body, that it is safer to be a public woman and not have any signs of being human on your body. So my wise, Oprah at the table is like, yes, we hear you and that would be safer. And we're still going to do something different because we're trying to make things different in the future. So just stick with me. I know what I'm doing.

And we're going to be really braver than we've ever been before. Damn. Hmm. Yeah. And I'll keep checking in with you. Right? Like, exactly. That's right.

That's so, that's right. And, you know, our parts do have advice for us. Not all of it might be useful. Or maybe the extremity, again, isn't useful to act on in it's entirely. But certainly, they have wisdom to listen to. And it is, I always picture, like, one of my kids wanting my attention. Like, mommy, mommy, mommy, and like what they would do and how. how loud they would get and how mean they would get if I just never listen to them.

That does not work. If you want somebody to quiet down, ignoring them is not the way to go. But that's what we do. We lock it in the basement and we say you're a bad part. I'm going to focus on these other parts I have. Yeah. And you know, sisters and Abby, that's why I'm always like, I need you to let weird glen to come to the pot. That's my little exile self being like, this manager shit.

that's why I was so pissed when the freaking astrologist told me I was in Ares and not a Pisces. Because I identify with my sensitive exile self. And I thought she was telling me I had to be a manager and an Ares all of a sudden. All of a sudden, all of a sudden. Okay. Okay. Okay. My name is Jessica.

So I have a 10-year-old son who I adore. Very smart, very personalable, very sweet. boy but lately he has been having issues with what my husband and i would call addition to video games he has been caught sneaking into our bedroom to steal our cell phones he's been caught hiding the chrome book under his bed we have tried all different methods whether it's taking things away or trying to pocket to death and nothing seems to be working um i listen to both Dr. Becky's podcast and we can do our things. I love you both.

So any advice or help would be really wonderful. So you are not alone. Okay, let me just say that. The devices that are designed to be addictive become shocking. It's shocking. It is. It is an unfortunate truth.

So I want to give a thought here that's like an applied IFS. You know, like we don't have to like break down all those different parts. But here's what I would say. And I think, think this is generalizable to everything with kids. Amanda, we were talking about this. When kids engage in, let's just say, quote, undesirable behaviors, things that legitimately we might want to shift them away from. Like, they shouldn't lie to everyone's face. It's not great when they want to be friends with

kids who they have to bring candy to be friends with. It's not great to, you know, go take the iPad from the room. 100% agree. We often go to convincing them out versus understanding why that thing happens or why even it's working for them. It must be doing something for them. And they must have a legitimate motivation given that behavior is, you know, maintaining itself. And so I think in kind of an IFS way, we're saying, let's get to know that part before we have any type of connection capital to make space for a different part who would make more responsible decision. So what would that look like? I think it would look like saying to your son, Hey, I know we've been talking about this, like, taking the iPad thing and, oh, no, no, no, you're not getting punished today.

You're not getting yelled at. No, no, I'm taking a different approach. This might sound weird. You must, like, really, really want that iPad. It's like, I know you're a good kid, and I know you know we have certain rules. And there must be a moment. Or like, you want it. And then that one must, like, it's so big.

Or I don't even know that it's like it takes over you. and then that walks you to my room and finds it in the shelf and you climb up. And first of all, I understand that because these things are like really addictive even to adults. I find myself on it at night when I said I wouldn't. And there must be something you're looking for. I don't know if it's like fun or maybe it's friends or being able to talk about the thing at school. But actually, let's just spend today talking about that. And then I just, I don't know, we'll figure out the other stuff another day.

And so the part of him that's going to steal the iPad now is no longer kind of encoded in continued aloneness and shame and punishment and blame because you're actually meeting it with understanding. And again, I sometimes I feel like I hear parents questions, but like isn't that saying that it's okay or am I making it okay? Understanding someone is not the same as endorsing something about someone. They're just completely different things. And I think that we conflate them, which limits us in every relationship and politics and things much bigger than, you know, video games. We have to understand things about ourselves and about people as a foundation to any type of change. And that's the foundation you'd be setting.

As you're talking, I'm not even thinking about kids. I'm thinking, like, what are the parts, like, of me? like, what do you get out of saying that mean thing? You always say to your husband. What is that? What are you needing from that? You know, like I'm thinking of like all of these things I do all the time. I'm just thinking about how much we pretend that like stealing an iPad under your bed.

And then we pretend that that's like something that's terrible that we can't understand. But we do that shit all the time. Yeah. I just love the conversations with my kids that are like, like, oh my God, we are so weird. Yeah. Why do we do these things? And then if you can approach weird things with curiosity instead of shame, it's just,

then you're not afraid. You're not banishing parts. You're inviting them all to the table. And you're inviting your kid to become that wise self. Because if you're discussing that part of you that's doing it, you are not that part of you that's doing it. And you're not alienating them and leaving them alone. We all say we're not going to be on our fellow.

and do whatever. Because this is literally the same. Yeah. I think that's right. You know, often, I feel like I have this assumption, both that people are good inside and that like all of us would do all the things if the conditions were hard enough. Like we would. Like, you know, like my kid lied to my face. Like, okay, I would lie to someone's face. For sure, I did it today. Right. And I felt whatever it was. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, I think with our kids, right, and again, there's, again, there's a lot of distance, right? Probably when we see things in our kids that we never had any understanding of or curiosity about when we were that age, right? They stole the iPad and then we often make it. We always

center, they don't respect me. Like, you think your kid couldn't control getting the iPad because they were thinking, you know, I don't respect my dad. It's true. So therefore, I am going to take the iPad. It's centering ourselves. They had an impulse that they couldn't control. Abby always says that. She's like, I don't think they respect me. I'm like, because they didn't clean the sink, Like for sure, they're just lazy. And it doesn't mean there's not a different intervention. Because again, the reason it's important to unpack, why is my kid taking that iPad? Why is my kid stealing money and going to the concert when I said they, I don't know, could do neither?

Well, if I understand, let's say it's the iPad, like, that's the most fun part of their day. That's the part where they actually, I don't know, maybe they've been having a really hard time in math. And school feels they feel bad about themselves. And this is an escape, right? Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to say to my kid, great, you. You can just have iPad time forever. No, that's not a great way to generate good feelings. But now I have a better understanding of how hard it is during the day for my kid.

Now I have an understanding of what's driving the behavior. And it's like a leak. Like there's a leak. Duck tape doesn't stop the leak. You've got to find where the leak is. And then you can actually intervene in a way where it's not whack-a-mole. And then the problem is just popping up all over the place. You actually stop the leak.

It's just, it's effective. CC your marriage, too. I mean, everything you just said. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yes. Easier said than done. Okay.

Let's hear from our next caller. I'm so happy Dr. Becky is returning. There's something that I have been kind of struggling with in a parenting aspect with my daughter who is very empathetic and shy and sensitive. And when it comes to extracurriculars, you know, she says she is nervous and stuff. and she doesn't want to do this or that. Or if we get involved in something, half the time then she says she doesn't want to go and she wants to stay home. I can relate.

But I guess I'm wondering how much do I push to try to encourage her to do new things and try new things and find activities that work well for her and how much do I sit back and let her emotions be known and trust her feelings. kind of a difficult task and she's only five. But any advice would be great. Love this question. I love this question. And I think here's a time when, to me, the most powerful intervention to any of our relationships is just to say, like, am I asking myself the best question I could be asking? A question dictates the path we walk down in our relationships with people, everything. So here, I think I find the question stressful. Like, do I push them to

go or do I kind of sit back? And I think especially as we're talking about IFS, there's a different question. And I think it has a more obvious answer. If we don't have an obvious answer, often we're just asking ourselves the wrong question instead of being hard on ourselves that we don't know. So do I like, do I get to know the part of my kid who's so hesitant and learn more about her? Or do I not get to know the part of her that's hesitant? And do I not learn more about her? And again, it's like, what? Like Becky, how you've been asking that question? Obviously it's the first, great. Now we have a question and then I'll pause, but then we could go from there. Jeez.

That's so freaking good. Do I get to know the part of my kid that's angry? Do I get to know the part of my kid that is introverted? Do I get to know instead of what do I do about changing that part? What do I? Yeah, that part, again, once it's known, like my child in that then more like somewhat balanced state is going to make the decisions that's right. And then we all know whether my kid does after school activities at five, we know it, even though it's anxiety producing

to all of us. Me too. I'm not above that. That's less important over the course of their life than whether they get to know this part of themselves. So just to make it another level more concrete, that's what I always need to. It's like I might say to my kid,

hey, I'm thinking about how you love soccer. And I'm also thinking about how you know the kids in class do soccer after school and you've told me you don't want to do the soccer class. Oh, let me just be clear. You don't have to do it. Soccer. No soccer. Doesn't make a difference. I just want to know. Like, let's think like you're like, I love soccer. I love soccer. Is it like, I love soccer? Oh, oh, class. I don't want to. Or is it like, I love soccer. I kind of want to do the class. But I don't know if I want to do the class. What would happen if I do the class? And again, I don't expect a five-year-old. A five-year-old. My five-year-old is not saying,

thank you for the profound differentiation, I would act it out this way. They're not going to say that, okay? But then we fool ourselves to saying let it doesn't matter. I always think, like, I ask my kids deep questions, never to get an answer, but so they start to ask themselves deep questions. As you know as an adult, it's the questions you ask, not the answers you get that help you out. So then what I may say another time, I might say, oh, sometimes there's a part of me that wants you. wants to do something. And, and this is so weird. And at the same time, there's a part of me that doesn't want to do something.

Is that making any sense? It does make sense, Dr. Becky. It does. Yes, Mom. Yes, Mom. Thank you for the profound differentiation. It's the same part of me that wants to make all the plans and then really, really wants everyone to cancel them. Yeah.

And then I always hear parents. And then what? Okay, parents who in general have an and then what question, I think it's the best trick. Whenever you're saying, and then what, the answer is always, and that's enough. Always. And then what? And that's enough. I mean, I'm not so rigid. Maybe not always, but it's a good thing to play around with. Let me say that. It's a good framework. This is how I always end in those, that's tricky. Period. Love it. Because it's the exploration. We're not always trying to get to some fixed outcome. And then you're like, what was my question, are they going to do it or not? Wait, that's not my question. Yeah, I totally am getting to know that

part a little bit. Okay, I guess I did my job. It's kind of a weird feeling. Doesn't feel like how I usually think about it. But that, you know, I guess I did that. I can now feel good about myself and go to bed. I think it's so important as a parent, too. We do so much projection on our kids that it's like, yes. Decide one way or the other. I know for me, indecisiveness is a trigger. And so why would I consider my five-year-old child to be decisive about life. They're freaking young. Yes. My 14-year-old, I get so triggered by our kids being indecisive. Because to me that was- You should listen to the attachment episode, Abby. That was an attachment issue that I had. That was safety mechanism in place that I had to put for myself. Maybe also indecisiveness

often means there's multiple parts of us speaking up. It's not a thing being indecisic. I don't think that's like a personality trait. I've never really thought about this for it. So just formulating this not now. But I don't think indecisiveness is like a trait as much as maybe we weren't ever given the space to feel multiple things at once and pay attention to each and see where we landed. I know you're just formulating that on the spot, but I think it kind of hit the nail on the head over here. And if you think about our kids again, like your kids are older than my kids, but like, you know, still, they have a lot more of their lives for their adulthood. Like, taking time before, I don't know, you're given some job offer and you're like,

this isn't what I want. And you kind of know it, but you're like, this is so much money and whatever the other things. And everyone else would think this is impressive. Do you ever to say to yourself, there's a part of me that's drawn to this job offer? And there's a part of me that kind of feels no. No, it's not even that the right decision is to say no. That's just an outcome. But we know that the process of getting to the best outcome probably involves being aware of both parts.

So you're actually helping a kid with the things that actually lead to so much adaptation in adulthood. Damn it all to hell. This show is sponsored by Midi Health. Parymenopause and menopause aren't personality flaws or phases. They're medical transitions. And yet nearly three out of four women who actively seek help are sent home with nothing. No treatment, no roadmap, no support. Not because help doesn't exist, but because the healthcare system makes it absurdly hard to find

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This is Cindy. My question is, how do you parent a young adult? I was a structured parent when they were children, and apparently stricter than I realize, now that they're older, they tell me. But, you know, it worked out. I was okay. They're good kids. But now they're 24 and 27, and I need to change my procedure of parenting. My husband has rolled along just fine.

and loves this age, but I'm still trying to see if they're getting at the dentist. You know how it is. We do. We do, Cindy. We do, Cindy, called it a procedure. A friend of mine. You said my procedure of parenting. That might be a clue.

You know, a friend of mine recently is amazing. It's like, I did something big. I finally, I called my dad and I told him, she's my age. I no longer need you to set up a car when I go to the airport. Oh, my gosh. Oh. You know? And she's like, I can do that, you know? She's like, but like, I had to like really say that. And this reminds me, really, Cindy, of what you're saying. And I think this connects so many things, parts and attachment. And Cindy, I really mean this. It sounds like love for you was connected and hear me out here with control and a lot of involvement. And I don't mean that as like, oh, controlling it's so bad. No, it must have felt like I am giving my kids something. You say, strict, but strict and control can be pretty tied together.

And then one of the things as our kids get older is they want and hopefully, you know, hopefully want more and more independence. And then if we parented them and kind of even in some ways to find love and attachment with them through control of their behaviors, of their actions, then we, I actually think I'm going to say the most generous way or most positive version. We have an opportunity to get to know them and love them in a totally different. way. And I think the way this even connects to IFS is, I would think, Cindy, it would help a lot. And my guess is it would help outside parenting too. And I make it a little bit of a goal to just get

to know the control part, the part that wants to do for or maybe criticize or whatever you say would stricter, right? And no longer works as they get older. Because I think as they get older, and if things have been a little trickier, it's easy for us to be really critical of that. Oh, come on, Cindy. You know, your kids are older. Like, they don't need you to book their car. They don't need you to criticize what they're wearing. They don't like that.

And you know that. But yet, this stuff keeps happening. As long as we alienate parts, they have to take over our body to get our attention, which means they dictate what we do. We don't even want that. So actually, not in a moment with them. I think too often when we want to change, we expect ourselves to like find the new skill in the heated moment.

It's like really unfair to ourselves. It would be like someone who never took a foul shot being at the end of game seven and being like, I'm going to make this basketball reference. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.

I was thinking of parachutes. Like, you're suddenly raising an adult is a new thing. And it's like someone pushes you out of a plane. It's a new thing. I'm going to tell you how to do on the way down. You don't ever get to practice when conditions are not terrifying. Right. We have to learn skills when we don't need them, when our bodies come to have them activate in our body when we do need them.

And so I would spend some time. It doesn't have to be a ton of time. It's like, hi, part of me that's used to being more involved in the day to day. High part of me that's controlling. You're not a bad part. You played a role. And I know the whole time you thought you were doing what was best. And my kids are giving me a lot of input that they want me to interact with them in a different way.

And I'm going to ask you to time, time, step back. I hear you. You probably have messages. Maybe I still need to know, yes, I want to still make sure they have food, you know, or whatever the things are that feel important to maintain. And you're going to probably feel uncomfortable and speak up and get loud. When I start to do some different things, that's okay. I know you're trying to help and we're going to figure this out.

And actually, like, I'd like to be really concrete. I'd be like, I'm going to go to my phone right now. And I'm going to set an alarm. And it's going to be every day or every three days. at 9 a.m. because I'm always free at 9 a.m. And it's going to say, talk to controlling part. Just put in the time. You know, say like, I don't know, 30 seconds.

And then what happens over time is you've actually made space in your body to intervene differently. I'd also suggest actually talking to your kids about this. Hey, I want to be totally honest with you. I feel like a lot of the ways I parented you was with a heavy hand and a lot of control. And I'm sure at times that didn't feel good to you as a kid. But it seems that I know. It's not feeling good at age 24 and 27.

And when you see that in me, know that I'm working on it. I am. It's not going to be perfect. But at least if you know I'm working on it, maybe you could say, Mom, mom, you're doing that. Yeah. And as someone who's also in this phase, I would say to Cindy that it is something also that speaks to worthiness for me. It's when you have been that person at the table with your child for their whole life. And the way that you have established your worthiness as a human being and in relation to that person is being a loud voice at the table.

Becoming the parent of an adult in many ways is being banished from the table for a while. And your volume gets turned down. And that's if you've done it well. And so the thing about going from like a director of your kid's life to being a consultant, which is what it feels like is that in order to be a consultant, you must be consulted. Yeah. Okay. So if our role is to be a consultant in our kids' lives, if we are not being consulted, we are still being a controller, which means that is terrifying because there's this phase of time where you have to carry on. change your center of worthiness to your own life.

And then this weird thing happens, which I have noticed recently, that if they see you living your own table with your own wise self, then they start asking for your consultation. Because they see you as having what they want. But there's this period where you just have to be okay not being at the table and not being in the room and wait for them to come to you. and that is hard. And the only way to survive that time is to shift your center of worthiness to your own life.

And, and I would say, when you're not consulted, it's also powerful to note, you'll have an anxiety part come up. That's what makes you call your kid, right? And to know, okay, so I can also get to know that. I'm just going to start to watch out for the, but I have to, whatever it is. And I'm going to make friends with her too. She's used to trying to compel me to do the thing I used to do. So as you change a role, right, I think often we say to ourselves,

like, I want to change. And then we kind of say some version of like, and I don't want to feel X. Like, I want to go out with my friends and not feel guilty that I'm not putting my kids down. No, we want to go out with our friends and learn to tolerate feeling guilty about not putting our kids down. That's like actually much more compelling because now I can do that instead of not. Right. And worse comes to worse during a banishment and not being consulted time. I started loving my kid during meditation.

I would sit, like do meditation and then send all the love. that I could from my little bedroom. I know that sounds weird Glenn and shit, but it worked. I felt like we might have the best relationship we've ever had now with me just loving him. We're really getting along swimming. We are crushing it. Understand each other so well, not missing each other. Pure love.

Spending so much time together. Well, and also something that happens is you tell me sometimes that you're feeling like sad that the kids are getting older and I have to keep reminding you. We are building a beautiful life together. and me. I know. Yeah. And that's important to remember. Yeah. That's right. Pod Squad, we love you. If this was a Trojan horse for you, which I know it was, please go check out all of Dr. Becky's work. Fucking love her work. I love you, Dr. Becky. Thank you for coming on with us. Thank you so much. Your Instagram is Dr. Becky at Good Inside. At Good Inside. At Good Inside. Thank you, y'all. We can do hard things like figure.

out the mystery that we are. We'll catch you back here next time. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.