We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 183. How to Love Our People Bigger & Better with Bozoma Saint John

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

1. Hard-won, joyful, practical wisdom from Bozoma’s exuberant life, and her lessons on how to overcome after enduring excruciating loss. 2. How big love and life can be when we are brave enough to be fierce and tender.  3. The rarely talked-about confusion and fear that often come with pregnancy.  4. Why love isn’t enough — and we all deserve a community surrounding our love. 5. Why Boz gave her husband a book report assignment before she’d go out with him, and the heart wrenching truth that you can carry anger toward a loved one even after death.  About Bozoma:  Bozoma Saint John is a Hall of Fame inducted Marketing Executive, author, entrepreneur, and general badass. In 2021, Harvard Business School published a multi-media case study written about her career, titled “Leading with Authenticity and Urgency”. And Bozoma’s highly-anticipated memoir, THE URGENT LIFE, is available now. Bozoma’s brilliant career has spanned various industries and included roles as Global CMO of Netflix, CMO of Endeavor, CBO of Uber, Head of Marketing of Apple Music & iTunes and Head of Music and Entertainment Marketing at PepsiCo.  Bozoma’s work has been lauded and awarded with notable recognition including inductions into the American Advertising Federation Hall of Achievement, Billboard’s Women in Music Hall of Fame, the Marketing Hall of Fame; and has been included in The Hollywood Reporter’s Women in Entertainment Power 100 list and crowned as The World's Most Influential CMO by Forbes. By far, her greatest achievement is raising her 13 year old daughter, Lael.  TW: @badassboz IG: @badassboz

We're here. We are here. Welcome. We can do hard things. I don't think we've ever had an episode that was based on a love story. And this is a love story today. This is a love story about a woman and her husband, about a woman and her daughters, about a woman and life. And as Bose knows, because I read it.

the urgent life for the first time months ago and just texted her immediately and said, holy shit, I learned so much. And I couldn't wait to have Bose on the pod to talk to our pod squad because I feel like what we try to talk about constantly is just how to love and live deep. How do we just suck the marrow out of life? And this is what Bose shows us. We hear all the time that like the harder and deeper and truer, you stay close to truth. We're scared of that because it hurts so bad, but that is what it takes in order to experience the highs of life. And Bose does both. Why don't you introduce Bose, Abby?

Bozema St. John is a Hall of Fame inducted marketing executive, author, entrepreneur, and, in our opinion, just a general badass. Bozum's brilliant career has included roles like global CMO of Netflix, CMO of Endeavor, CBO of Uber, head of marketing of Apple Music and iTunes. and Head of Music and Entertainment Marketing at PepsiCo, crowned as the world's most influential CMO by Forbes. By far, her greatest achievement is raising her 13-year-old daughter, Lael, her highly anticipated memoir, The Urgent Life, is available now. Your life is one big love story, and partly about you and Peter. I loved your book, and this part made me giggle so loud.

you first met Peter at work. Okay? Yes. And you were hungry and he was a bit of a smart ass. And eventually he asked you out and you said, if you read my favorite book, I'll go out with you. Yeah. Tell us about your first meeting, your first date,

and the first real gift he gave you. Ooh, yes. Okay. Can I also just say that it was really hard to write this book? Can I say that? It was really, really hard. And I love the fact that. that you said that some of it made you giggle.

Because that's really what life is, you know? There's like the hard parts and the loss and the trauma, but there's also the giggles. Even today as I sit here and I, you know, every once in a while, sporadically I'll think of him or something will remind me or layout will say something and it'll make me giggle. You know, so it's not everything that is like deep and dark and heavy.

You know what I'm saying? And yeah, meeting him was one of those. It was so ridiculous. Like the fact that I married this man is like, somebody should be, somebody should question me. You know what I mean? There should be some real questions about my opinions and my way of evaluating people. Okay?

Because when I saw him, he just looked utterly, I mean, ridiculous is the right word. First of all, I was working for Spike Lee at a company that was his agency inside of an agency. One of those big old agencies. Actually, remember the show Madman? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Bad men was based on DDB. So imagine that Spike has this little, like, group of people inside of a company like that. Okay. It's all black people on there. You know what I'm saying? Inside of this very white place. So the only time we interacted with the other white people was when we went to the cafeteria or to the mailroom or some other place where there were other people. Otherwise, we were on an island by ourselves. And so I went down to the cafeteria to get my breakfast, which was a very standard thing. that I did. Okay, I wore the same thing. I'm a creature of habit, right? What was it? Look, darkly toasted cinnamon raisin bagel, uh, two fried eggs over hard, very hard, not running at all.

And two pieces of crispy bacon. Krispy bacon. I love that part. That's correct. Don't forget the butter. Okay. So that is my order. And this man was standing in line, like a few people behind me, tall white guy, like 6-5, reddish blonde hair, wearing a button-down shirt that was open, like a few buttons down and had this heavy gold chain. I mean, it was, he just looked ridiculous. And he was basically like yelling ahead of people to me. Then I should hurry up with my order. Yeah, that's what happened.

And I had the same attitude then I have right now. You know what I mean? So I literally turned around like, who the fuck is talking to me like that? That was like my attitude. And when he eventually, you know, like simmered down because he realized he really couldn't mess with me, he tried to come in like sweet talk and he was like, well, you look like a queen, but does it mean that you're royal? I was like, that's what kind of line? You know what I mean?

The whole thing was ridiculous. Like that's not the beginning of a love story. You know, that's not the way it should start. But it's the way hours started. And so, yeah, when he realized how fine I was, you know what I'm saying? Yes. And he wanted to go out. I absolutely was not letting him get an easy yes.

First of all, I wasn't planning to say yes at all. You know, so my suggestion that, like, if he wanted to get to know me, he should read my favorite book, which is Tony Morrison's Song of Solomon, heavy books, right? That's like, yo, if you want to. read about the African-American experience and you've got to like rise up to the level. Tony Morrison is who you read. Which isn't dumb down anything.

And so I thought, well, that'll get rid of him because he's never going to read that. Yeah? But no, a week later, here he comes. Two Spikes floor all the black people. You know what I'm saying? And here he comes, big white man. And the

receptionist is like, oh, there's a white guy here to see you. And I'm like, ooh. You see who? Not me. I don't know any white. people. I didn't invite any white people here. I have no idea. That was not me. I go out to like the reception area and sure enough, it's that man. He's standing there and he's like, I read the book. Let's go out. And I was like, there's no way. There's absolutely no way. You read the book in like a week. Like, there's no way. So I decided to call his bluff and said, all right, let's go. Let's go to dinner. And the thing is, see, what I knew that he didn't know at the time was that I was an African-American

studies major at Wesley University. I'd read everyone. All of the enormous black talent, the James Baldwin, Nicky Giovanni, the Zorda Neal Hurston, like, everybody. And I wrote papers on it. I knew it deeply. And so I was like, yeah, let's go out. I'm going to embarrass the hell out of you. That's what I'm thinking of my head. But we got to dinner and he knew what he was talking about. He had read the book. That was probably the first shot. That was probably the first shot. You know, that this man who like just didn't look the part, you know, and maybe that's this part of the lesson. He just didn't look like what I assumed he was. And he just showed up in a different way.

And so by the time we were done with dinner, I like to say, and I, I mean, I will say that by the end of the dinner, I was in love. Imagine that like 180, you know what I'm saying? From like sitting there looking like, I'm going to finish this appetizer and then I'm going to stop him up with the right. of it. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to destroy him. And then by the end, I'm like, oh my God, I think I love him. You know what I'm like? Oh, my God. So we were inseparable. Inseparable. That was the end of November in 2000. Yeah, in 2000. And my birthday's in January. And we were just inseparable. We were deeply in love. I only took us a couple months to get there. And as a present, you know, I was like, I really love my birthday. And I was hoping for,

some jewelry or something shiny, you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do. And yeah, we get to his apartment and there's no tiny box. There's nothing that looks like it could have jewelry in it. There's only like something draped in the corner, you know, with all over with a sheet. And I'm looking at it like, it's not even like wrapping paper. You know what I mean? It's literally like a sheet.

And again, I'm thinking like, oh, man, like, you know, I love this person. So I'm going to give him some grace, but damn, I'm going to have to teach him how to gift me. right through my head. And is that so interesting, though, that how much we want to teach other people how to love us? Yes. You know what I'm saying?

Like, teach you the last other person love you? You know what I mean? God, I do. But in any case, I got maybe one of the best gifts I've ever received in my life, you know, under that wrinkled blanket that was thrown over something. Because when I took it off,

it was Peter's painting, an interpretation of the song of Solomon. The man had never picked up a paint and brush before in his life and he painted what his interpretation was. And it is one of the most thoughtful, beautiful gifts I've ever received. And it currently is hanging up in Lael's bedroom. So that's the kind of love we're dealing with here, people. So you and Peter fall in love, a black woman and a white man, and a white man who wears big long gold chains. Yes.

And as you begin to share your relationship with the world, things get tricky. You said it felt sometimes like there is no peace to be found anywhere for you to. So talk to us about what you mean by that, how our culture reacts and responds to a black woman and a white man in love. Yeah, because we were in New York City, you would think, maybe you'd, yeah, you would assume that it should have been peaceful, right? It's a multicultural city, cosmopolitan, lots of people living together, right, all over the city. Like, there's not, it's not like you could just be by yourself in one area. You know, maybe there's certain parts of the city, but for the most part, you've got people everywhere. And it's like, we're living in Manhattan, right? So it should be everybody, kumbaya. But that's not what it was. I think. found out very quickly that love doesn't mask everything. You know, it's like, yeah, so you're in a cocoon to some degree, but you have to live in love outside. You don't just love inside.

And the outside is what then started to crack us, you know, even in those early days, because we were confronted with other people's opinions. And look, we can sit here now and say like, oh, but who can't? cares like who cares what they think and look at it all of us have been in that position every single one of us you love somebody you enter a situation where you know you're probably not welcome and maybe you start to back up out of the space or you look for the safe exits or you look for a friendly face you know what I mean like the two of you by yourself sometimes is not enough you know sometimes you need a community around you to uphold you to tell you that like look your love is good your love is

okay. You know, feel free to do that. And that wasn't the case for us. It came from everywhere. Not just my family, by the way, or his, which was hard enough. But from strangers. You know, it came from white women. It came from black men. It came from, you know, even black women who were like, girl, you better get to swirl on. You know what I mean? Like it came from them, too. That's pressure too. Yeah. Everybody feels like they can have an opinion. Yeah. on your relationship. Even when you don't ask for it, like as if you needed their approval

to do what you're doing. You know what I'm saying? Good or bad, that's what I mean. So, yes, of course, like, you know, the times when, like, black women would see me and they'd be like, oh, girl, tell me about that swirl. It was funny, but at the same time, it still put a spotlight on us.

You know, so even in praise, it can be harsh. Yeah. Even in like celebration, you can feel like, ah, but do you have to look at me? You know, like just let me be in peace. And that's what was difficult. What is the white woman response? I loved how you wrote about that in the book. And what is beneath it?

Because it's not just that people are interested in you. It's that what you're doing is threatening something in me. Yes, yes, yes, yes, which is always very curious to me, right? I mean, I'm sure a lot of us also ask that question. So why is it that what I'm doing bothers you something? Yeah. What's it got to do with you? You know what I'm saying?

And yes, white women were particularly interesting. You know, because they were less vocal, but meaner. But I have found that to be the truth for me in various places. Yeah, not just in this case, but in the corporate spaces and lots of spaces. that you know sometimes it's like right you you rather that somebody just yell in your face you know when black men saw us and would try to grab my arm or be like since what you're doing with him you know that was one kind of aggression for white women who would scoff or would look at me up and down or I could see them whispering amongst themselves you know that was a different type of aggression

quieter, but meaner, because I could tell their disapproval in a way that I felt was more dangerous. Because I wasn't sure what they were going to do, right? And so to me, it's like that response and all those types of responses had to navigate carefully, just weren't sure when it was going to be a safe space or a safe environment for us to be exactly who we were. And so we found ourselves very quickly adapting. to certain environments, right, behaving differently. And that was not a conscious change.

And perhaps, again, maybe that's a universal thing, where you find that, you know, in some spaces you behave one way as a couple, and another spaces you behave a different way as a couple. Yep. You know? And it's all with the intention of like, yeah, sometimes just being safe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And you were together in that. But one of the things I can't stop thinking about is that you were also alone in that because as the black woman in the relationship, you had always had to be on the lookout for all of those microaggressions. Whereas so you would notice them and Peter wouldn't even notice them. Right? Did that make you feel alone? Yes. Yes. It made me feel so angry. I was pissed off because I think part of it also was that it was almost like he could do no right in that. You know what I mean? Yeah. If I called it out and he tried to dismiss it, like, that's no big deal.

You know, there was this one time. I remember we were like in a fancy shop. I don't remember what designer it was, but, you know, we're shopping and he was so excited. He was like pulling things for me and like, oh, we should try this on. It's going to look great for you. And I saw a bunch of white girls over there, like just snickering and like, you know, I just knew. I was just like, oh, man, I don't even want to go into the dressing room because he's going to make me come out. And then they're still going to be standing there and judging me with their eyes. And I just don't want, I just don't want the thing, you know? And when I told him about it later,

like I got pissed off in the moment and we left and we didn't buy anything. And later on, he was just like, why I was so mad? You know? And I'm like, well, because of those white girls, you know? And he's like, oh, who cares? Like, who cares about them?

I'm like, what do you mean? Who cares? I don't care. You know? And it's like I wanted a partner who would be as outraged as me. Or if it went the other way where, you know, it's like,

hey, this thing is happening over here. And then if he wants to overreact, right? Or the time of a black man try to pull me from him, physically pull me from him. You know, and I knew that, well, we were about to, we were all of us about to be in a fight. You know, it's like, then I'm playing peacekeeper, you know, and I'm trying to be like, hey, simmer down, calm down, calm down, man. Bring all that manly testosterone, bring it down, you know? And so a lot of times I felt very alone.

there was a time when we went to Ghana together. And it was his first time there. And I was really excited for him to come because, of course, Ghana is so important to me. It's where my parents are problems, where my family's from is the basis of everything in my life. And we had talked about it so much. So his first visit, he was thrilled, right?

And the running joke was that like every morning we would wake up and Peter would be gone. Nobody could find it. He'd just be out in the street. And then later on we go find him and he had made friends. He's over here holding people's hands, you know? And he was just adventurous. But it pissed me off because there was just no win.

Because I was just like, how is it possible that you were able to be anywhere on this planet and have the freedom to do anything you want? Yet I don't feel safe at home. I can't walk around at home by myself, go make some friends with random strangers. yet you are in a foreign land. You don't speak the language. You don't eat the food. You can't even pronounce the people's names right.

Yeah, here you are. All alone by yourself, having a good-ass time. You know? So when we came back and friends were like, how was Ghana? You know, and he's like, oh, it's fantastic. What's amazing? I have a fantastic time. And I'm sitting there like, this is another fuck a year.

You know what I mean? Like, how are you allowed to have such a good time? Such a good time, you know? But at the same time, can you imagine if he came back and he was just like, It was terrible. It stank. I hated all the people. I hated it.

Yeah. But you probably were hoping that you would have a moment of understanding because he would go and be uncomfortable there. And then he would understand how you felt. But instead, you said, I should have been ecstatic that Peter was embracing Ghana. Instead, I was pissed at his white man's arrogance. Yes. That's exactly right. Well, you wrote it.

You wrote it. That was you quote from you. Yes. Yes. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Is it like that's exactly it? That's how I'm about.

I wanted him to understand what it was like for me to be in the world. And I thought if I put him in a world that is not his, he will finally understand what it's like for me to be in his. But that didn't happen. Instead, he was king there too. How was that possible? And yet here I am scared everywhere. There was no understanding between us of the cultures.

And it was a fracture. Your description of that is mind-blowing and world-changing, by the way, in the book. So you're in this cocoon and there's all this shit on the outside, but it wasn't just out of the cocoon. It was in the cocoon. Tell us about when you went out to dinner with Leander and Ray. Oh, yes. Oh, my goodness. So, by the way, Leander and Ray both have read the book.

They read an early draft of it. And Leander remembered it. didn't. Yeah, which is also so interesting to me as a writer of a memoir that our memories, you know, some, some memories are just so sharp, right? They create, sometimes they create trauma in a way that somebody who's in the exact same place just doesn't even, like, affect them at all. It's amazing.

At all. It's incredible. You know what I mean? And that's also why sometimes I feel like even in our own lives, like we have to have more grace, you know, in like our expectations. experiences because, yes, two people can be in the same experience at the same time and it can affect one and not affect the other one. In that moment when Ray was telling me that he couldn't remember that time, I was just like, wow, isn't that so so fascinating?

Bany case, yes, we were celebrating Leander's birthday and we had gone to a casino in Connecticut and it was the four of us celebrating. So Ray and Leander are black. Leander's one of my best friends. We met in college. Ray went to college with us as well. So I've known them forever, Right. But the four of us were great friends together, you know, two couples having a great time. And we'd gone to this casino. We went to the restaurant to, like, have a great dinner together. And the hostess at the front was, you know, she was like one of those who was just like, oh, yeah, you know, we'll see you as soon as something opens up. Meanwhile, there's like three tables open that we can see. You know what I mean? And then we're standing there for like 15 minutes. And it's like, can we see? Can we see? sit? What's happening? And like almost immediately, I think the three of us, Ray Leander myself, knew what was going on.

Peter, on the other hand, it was just like, oh, man, I can see a table over there. You know, and we're like, man, do you not see, you know what I said? You know, so eventually, of course, that scene blew up, you know, we knew it was some racist shit happening. And we sit down. It, of course, then dawned on Peter

what was going on. And he felt so terribly in that moment, which I think in hindsight, I understand how he felt so terrible, right? He was identifying with this white person who was treating his black wife and his black friends terribly. And he felt responsible, right? He wanted to right to the wrong. Meanwhile, I'm thinking in my head, you're not one of them.

You're one of us. You're with us. So when they treat me badly, they treat you badly. But in that moment, I realized that he wasn't one of us. he didn't see it that way. He saw himself as part of that. And that for me was another chasm that started opening in our differences because I realized that he would never be part of us.

If something was to wrong me, he would not feel it. He would never feel it. He would always take the side of somebody else to try and write the wrong that they did because he felt responsible in their care and not pained with my. He's identifying with that person, which is why he's trying to fix it. Because if he was identified with you, he wouldn't be trying to fix it. He would be in pain or rage or with you. Correct, correct, correct.

I've thought this a million times. I wrote about it in the book as well, this is our current climate, you know? And everything that's been happening with George Floyd, I think the day after George Floyd was murdered, I was on one of these big panels, the Zoom panel, I think it was Ad Week, or something. big, right? It was a bunch of CMOs and it was like the top 20 CMOs. I'm supposed to do this. And the topic was to like share the thoughts of like how we as an industry should behave and how to best market to consumers and this changing climate. And I'm sitting there like, I can't think of anything else, but George Floyd. You know what I'm saying? And I think I was

one of two black people amongst the 20 or 25. And it got to my turn to give my insights and I just I literally could not say the words that I had written only a week before, you know, by the way, they were brilliant insights. I know they were. I know they were. Thank you very much. But all I could think of was like, I want you to be enraged. And that's all I said.

I said, I have three points. Be enraged. Be enraged. Be enraged. That's it. You know? And if you don't feel that rage that I feel that I don't understand why I am. and fear.

It is that feeling, a part of that feeling that was back then too with him. You know, I was just like, why don't you feel the rage? Like, why don't you feel the shame? Why don't you feel the hurt? You're identifying with them and feeling sorry for me. That's not the feeling

I want. You know, if you're going to be in this fight with me, if you're truly going to be authentic in this, you know, in our relationship, or even like, let's bring it to the present. If you are an ally of some sort and you want to be in this with me, you have to feel the pain. You don't feel sorry for me. You know? And that's what pissed me off. Like I was just like, man, like this man, it will be a feeling sorry for us. You know, instead of feeling mad. And that

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want to say about that time about loving Eve and losing her? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Man, what a lesson, you know? Peter really wanted kids. He wanted kids immediately. I was the one who was just like, look, I'm young and beautiful. I don't want to mess this up. And so I resisted for like five years, you know, in our marriage, which maybe doesn't seem like a long time, but like, you know,

when you're in a marriage and somebody wants a kid, five years is a long time. You know, where I'm just like, let's come on vacation, you know? Distraction. But what about this fall? And I'm like, oh, that's fashion week. I don't think I want, you know what I mean? I got to be cute. Like, I need outfits, you know?

And I was like, you know, I was real religious with my birth control and the whole thing. So when I was late, I was literally like, am I sick? Is there an illness? Because, like, there's no way I'm pregnant, right? And I am honest in my storytelling that, like, look, I was not happy to be pregnant. I cried. I cried for a long time. I cried for days.

I don't think I even told my mom for like a week after I knew I was pregnant, you know? But Peter was elated. He was so excited. And I think for me, it was the realization. There were so many things happening at the time. All of these different experiences I've been talking about, you know, with like our cultural differences and some other difference we're having was making me question whether or not this was actually the partnership and the relationship I wanted. I loved them very much, but I wasn't sure that like our relationship. was actually going to last forever.

And I was scared of that. I hadn't voiced it at all to anybody. And then I got pregnant and I was like, oh shit, now I'm trapped. Now I'm stuck here. And so those were the thoughts that were going through my mind. But by the time,

it was unavoidable for me to tell people, you know, because I was hiding for a long time. That first trimester, I wasn't telling a soul. I told me my close friends and like, you know, my sisters, but like, that was it.

And so then it was obvious in the second trimester. And I had to tell my, colleagues. And so, you know, it was like a slow build for me in terms of like coming to terms of the fact that I was going to become a mother. And every appointment that we had, you know, to hear the baby's heartbeat or to do the checkup was another one where I was like, okay, all right, I'm getting closer and closer. You know, I'm starting to understand this. And by the way, can I pause and say that I wish that women who decide to become mothers or who are pregnant or, you know,

who go through that experience, or any partner, I guess, anybody who becomes a parent. That's probably a better way to put it. I wish we would talk about that more. Be more honest about that because it's not always rainbows and sunshine when you figure out that you're pregnant.

Even if you're in a quote-unquote traditional situation where you should feel happy, you know? Like, what does that even mean? You know? It's like, look, you as an individual, like sometimes you have to acclimate to a situation, you know, that's serene. And we don't talk about the misery of that.

Or like, what happens? And I, for one, I think everybody on the outside would have been like, you're in a five-year marriage, you got a great husband, you got a great job. You live in Manhattan. You can afford, like, whatever you want. Why wouldn't you be happy to be pregnant? There's nothing wrong with you. But I didn't want to be.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I felt trapped and I felt like I had to be. So every appointment did get me closer and closer to feeling like I could do it. And the turning point for me, and this is, you know, I thought about this a lot over the years, but the turning point for me was when we went to an appointment,

I was almost six months pregnant where they checked the amniotic fluid. And our obstetrician said that, you know, the fluid was a little low and that our baby wasn't the size that it was supposed to be, like just a little smaller, but it wasn't cause for concern. and when I heard that, I became protective. You know, it was a turning point for me where I was just like, oh, wait, hold on now, hold on.

Okay. Now this is not just like some foreign object that I'm like fighting against. Oh, no, now my body might be betraying us. Yeah. And it's like I can talk shit about my family. Don't you talk shit about my family? That's exactly right. Like, I could be pissed off, but don't you dare mess this up.

You know what I mean? if anyone's going to mess it up, it's going to be. You know what I mean? It was just a turning point where I was like, oh, wait, hold on. Oh, okay. No, no, no. Let me figure this out, you know? And by the time my illness was diagnosed, I had severe preeclampsia, early onset preeclampsia,

and had to be rushed into the delivery room. I had to be given the Pocococin and all the drugs to induce labor. And, oh, it's like that. That was me and her, Eve, fighting against what was happening to us. I felt like it bonded us in that way. Whereas Peter, on the other hand, we had switched roles. You know, because unbeknownst to me at the time, the doctor had told him that he had to choose one. He had to choose one.

He was either going to lose meat or he was going to lose Eve. And which one was it going to be? and I now can understand the impossible situation that he was in. But at the time, all I knew was the decision and I was livid. Yeah, that's right. You know, not just mad that he had chosen me over her, but that I didn't have a voice in the decision. No, the fact that he made it on his own and then informed me.

And I thought, well, what would I do now? You know, even as we have a lot of discussions these days about choice, you know, and it's like, what do you do in that situation? And if you have a choice, what do you do? Which one do you make? And of course, there was no guarantees that if he had chosen the baby that she would live either. You know? So he chose his wife.

and it was so devastating to me. I think in that moment, all I could think of was the fact that that I was maybe being punished by God. You know, that I was like, well, maybe if I had better appreciated the tremendous gift of motherhood, of having a child that I wanted,

be in the position to lose it. And maybe somebody thinks that's irrational. But it was the only way that I could make sense of a situation that didn't make any sense to me. I said, well, everybody has babies, right? Right?

My mom had four. My sister had a couple. My aunt had like nine. Everybody has babies. Nobody ever talks about the challenge. Nobody ever talks about things that go wrong. I didn't even know about preeclampsia. you know and then all of a sudden here I was by being forced to give birth when I didn't want to

so I could think of was like it's got to be God it's got to be God who said you don't deserve this you didn't want this right and now I'm taking it that's all I could think and so in that moment I prayed I prayed and I begged I did all of the things I cried I railed oh I was holding myself. I can still feel it in my body. You know, her kicking and fighting and me trying to hold contractions. And

eventually when she was born, you know, she didn't she only took a breath. And all I could think about was the fact that God failed me. I thought I was asking for help.

Isn't that what God wants us to do? Be vulnerable. Lay our burdens at the throne of God and ask for help. Ask for forgiveness. Then you'll be saved. Right? That's what we're taught in Christianity anyway. And I thought I was a good Christian.

But God, God didn't, God didn't listen to me. And in that moment, my relationship with God also changed. And how? How do you feel differently about God now than you did then? And how does Lael work into all of that? You know, so here's the thing. God and I are really homies, okay? I know.

I know. Yeah, we're homies. Yeah, we're homies and that like, I can't be mad at God. I don't always have to like God. You know, and maybe that sounds blasphemous to some people. But, you know, like I feel like that's a homie. Sometimes you're mad at your friends.

Doesn't mean you don't love them. But you get mad at them. They don't want to speak to them for a while. And sometimes that's how I feel. You know? And even at that point, I was so angry. I was angry at everything. I was angry at God.

I was angry at my obstetrician. I was angry at Peter. I was angry at my body. I was angry at everybody. And the only way that I felt like I could rectify any of it because, you know, I wanted to take things into my own hands and, like, control everything, was to get pregnant again.

Because I was like, aha, that is the solution. And again, everybody said no. My obstetrician was like, what the hell you're doing? Peter was like, oh, absolutely not. I was like, you better lay down, brother. We got to get pregnant. Okay? That's what we're going to do.

Okay, because I'm ovulating and that's what's happening. You know? And even, you know, my mom, like everybody was just like, don't you think you should take them time? And I was like, no, no, no, I'm going to get pregnant right now. And so three months after Eve died, I was pregnant with Laelle. and almost as soon as I found out that I was pregnant, again, I was like, oh, shit, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do it.

I don't want to do it. I don't know. I was kidding. You got to be? Because it was so scary. I was like, oh my gosh, now I got to live nine months with this thing. What if something happens? You know, what if I get sick? I'm like, oh, no. What if I lose this one? You know, and so the fear of that was as intense as the grieving loss of Eve. And those two things living inside of me and then also living within Peter created an impossible situation in our home.

We're supposed to be in this thing together, you know, protecting each other, helping each other, grieving together, celebrating together, right? We found ourselves in opposite corners because here I was like feeling like my body betrayed us. My body betrayed Eve.

It was my fault. And then I was like, well, God, you have something to do with this too. So you make sure that this baby lives. But then at seven months pregnant with Lael, here I go again. More prethiaxia. And at that point, I was like, hey, look, here you. This is me to God. Don't do this again.

I promise you, don't do this to me. I will not survive this. And I made God a deal. I said if he gave me this baby, I would name her for him. And that everywhere I went, I would tell people that God is the reason that she lived. And so when she was born, we named her La El, or La El, in Hebrew meaning belonging to God. and for me it was my contract. I was like, okay, I will do this if you give her to me,

if you protect her in the world. And honestly, it has been somewhat freeing also, you know, of the fear of her life. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. I think as parents, you're always worried, right, about your kid, like they outside. I'm like, oh, my God, they're safe, blah, blah, blah, blah.

yo, that's God's kid that's walking around outside. Okay? I dare you to mess with her. Like, that's not even mine. That's God's kid outside. Okay. Named after God. That's God Jr.

Okay. God Jr. God Jr. That's who's walking around. Okay. You want to mess around with her. That's on you. That's between you and I don't know.

I'm out of it. And then when she gets in trouble at school, you can be like, God, that is your child. Who did that at school today? That's correct. And yes, when she does something, I'm like, Laura, put you, going to do because this one right here. What's going on? Would you ground it?

I don't know what you want me to do. Oh, so free. Yeah. That's so friend. So friend. This show is sponsored by Midi Health. Parymenopause and menopause aren't personality flaws or phases. They're medical transitions.

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So after so much beauty and love and pain and loss, you decided it was time to separate. From Peter. How did you know it was time? And how did you know that separating was the right kind of hard? I mean, Bose, this is the question we get so much for people. How do you know? Because it's hard to stay. It's hard to leave.

How do you know which one is the right? Yeah. I battled it for so long. It was not like overnight where I was like, you know, I'm out of here. I thought about it for a long time. Well, you always just over a year old when I told him that I wanted to separate. And it was terrible. It was awful.

And gosh, I don't even know how to describe it because even in that conversation, there was a point of clarity for me that was just like, oh, yeah, no, this is the right thing to do, you know? Because our understandings of what we wanted in marriage were so different. And there were so many things that I still didn't know about him. You know what I mean? We were in the conversation about separating. And he was basically saying, but why do we have to? There's so many married couples who are miserable. Let's stay together.

I remember that. And I literally was just like, who am I talking to? Like, what do you mean? I don't want to be miserable. I don't. And you can say that it's a fantasy to be in a relationship where you're happy all the time. I know that's not realistic, but I also don't want to feel like this forever. You know, and so for me, that was the breaking point.

There was actually one day I was looking at Liel and thinking like, she will never know me as the happy person. She'll never know me as the person who's like, you know, carefree and loose and playful. Because that's not what I was in our relationship. At that point, I'd become more closed, angry. I was resentful, holding on to things. And look, I'm not going to just blame him for it. It was me.

It was me also. I couldn't let go of someone. certain things in our relationship. And there were chasms that I also let spread. And so by that point, I was just like, man, for her and for me, I got to get out. Yeah. Because I want her to know me as like the effervescent, bubbly, fun person that her dad fell in love with.

She would never know me as that if I stayed. And so in that conversation, I knew that it was time to go. It was difficult. And the thing is that I also wanted to, at the same time, I wanted to protect his heart. So I didn't say I wanted a divorce, even though that's how I knew I wanted. I wanted him to come to that realization, which was so stupid of me because, I mean, seriously. Like, again, why do we think that we can control other people? I don't know.

You're just going to set him up to have it be his own idea. Can you imagine? Exactly. I was like, you know what I'll do? I'll make it his idea. Like, how are you going to do that? I should have just said it, but I didn't. You know, I just said, oh, let's just, I think we should separate for a while and figure things out and see, you know, but all that did was drag this thing out for a long time.

You know, and then there were other challenging issues that come as a result of that, even though we became great co-parents, you know, I ended up moving. We were living in Edgewater at the time, and I ended up moving back into Manhattan and he stayed in Edgewater. Dale's Daycare was in Edgewater, so I would go and drop her off and then go to work, and then we'd basically. figured out, you know, so we ended figuring how to do life as a separated couple. It almost felt like we were still married just living in two places. Maybe some sort of like, you know, romantic 1950s movie or something like that. Yeah, it's kind of a dream. You're on to something, Phyllis. Hey, I'm sitting right here. Oh, no, no, no, no, babe, not you. I'm thinking of other marriages. Yeah, yeah, other marriages. Other marriages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, that was not going to work.

I mean, obviously it's like, you know, when, you know, I wanted to see other people. Here I was hiding and sneaking around. Like, I was cheating on him. That's not healthy either. And there were several times when we had to confront that. And it was not a great situation. But yeah, it's like I knew I had to go because I needed to be the best version of myself. That was not the best version of myself in that marriage at that time.

So then what people listening to this might not know, which they will when they read the urgent life is that there is a moment where Peter is diagnosed and when it became clear that things were bad. Yeah. Well, he was diagnosed in May of 2013. It was just before Lael's fourth birthday. And at that point, yeah, we were separated. He was seeing somebody that I was actually very happy that he was seeing because I was like, good. You have a girlfriend. You can leave me the L.O. You know what I mean? And I felt like, like, oh, we're getting, you know, we're getting that. We're getting that.

I liked her. We were sister wives. This is going to be perfect because he's going to come to the realization that we need to get divorced so he can go out with her into the sunset. I mean, this is wonderful. Work is going great. I did a major deal with Pepsi and the NFL for Super halftime show. Beyonce had been on the halftime show stage. Things were golden.

Everything was great. And then Peter has this lump on his neck. you know and we were again like we were in enough of a partnership that I could go over to his house and see that thing and be like what the hell is that you know and when we found out that it was cancer um we didn't panic if that sounds might sound strange we didn't panic because both of our mothers had had cancer my mother was in her second bout at the time when we found out that peter was sick so she was getting treatment she was chemo and radiation and the whole thing she had had surgery. So we just thought like, okay, there's got to be a plan, right? Like,

get the doctor, you know, figure out what, what the surgery and the plan was. But a few months into the treatment, it was oncologist just said there was going to be no, no, no solution, that the treatment was going to work, that nothing was helping in that he, it was going to be terminal. And it was such a, I don't even know how to describe, what that moment was like because I was sitting at the office when his mother called me from the hospital.

And you know when somebody calls me and they have something terrible to say but they won't tell you? Yes. I hate that. And I was like, I hate that. But again, I think of it, I'm just like, well, what else should she have done?

Right. She needs to be a person. She probably couldn't say the words herself either. But she told me to come to the hospital. I came down from Purchase, New York, to Manhattan, Marlon Sloan, Cettering, and Peter was in there. And as soon as I walked in, I knew. I just knew it.

I knew it. And all I could think of was like, gosh, it's like the years ahead of us that we wouldn't have, the loss not just to us as a family, but to Liel, what he wouldn't be able to do with her. such a great dad, you know, that they would be so robbed of that. In my book, I talk about my relationship with my father, which is, you know, complicated. It's beautiful. It's beautiful, too.

Yes, yes, very protective, you know. But I love that guy. He's been such a rock in my life in many different ways. And I could think about the fact that Leyal would never have that, you know, that would be taken from her. stolen from her. And as I sat there, it was, I also thought about the time we had wasted, you know, in anger,

in misunderstanding. And how terrible would be to not confront any of those things or resolve them. You know, so in his list of things he wanted to do not even a bucket list really because it was more like a to-do list. Right, right. One of them was to cancel the divorce because at that point we had begun the process.

We had our lawyers. We'd come to that realization, but he wanted to cancel it. And it was maybe an easier yes than even the first time when he asked me out. It was an easier yes. I think because of all the things that I said, it's like that realization that like If you're faced in that moment where you don't have the choice anymore, this is going to end. What do you decide to do? And maybe I should have asked myself that question when I decided to separate.

Maybe that's the question I should have asked myself. No, but I didn't. And I wish I had. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger, hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to

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You could do this interview 50 different ways because the book has so many love stories in it. But next time I see you, we're talking about you and your dad. Oh, so much there. So much there. So much. And just the way that through your family of origin or your relationship with Peter and Eve and Lail, your commitment. to showing up for the people that you love. Relentless.

In the hardest, most relentless. There's a moment, and unfortunately, we're almost out of time, but I do want you to talk about this because it made me think about the beginning of the story, of your love story, when you begged Peter to write letters to layout. Oh, God. And he couldn't do it. And that made me think of earlier when, like, you're noticing the heart. things and he's not. And is there something about being the arrogant, entitled white man, right?

Is there really, like, is there something about, yes, there is a privilege of walking around like that? But are you because of that sort of pampering not able to do the grittiest most important things, which is real true love, which is what you do and you did throughout your life? I mean, there is something in it, you know, which is that I think as a black woman in this experience of life, I do always, by society standards and probably ingrained into my own because of that, serve other people first because I've served last always. And so in every situation I find myself serving.

others first. And so in the opposite way, Peter has always been served. He's always been the one who has received. And so to ask him to do something like that, which, yes, I understood in that moment and I understand now must have been feeling like the impossible thing to do. How do you write into the future when you know you won't be there? You know, how do you write to her on her 16th birthday. How do you write to her in her first date? How do you write to her for her for her? Maybe when she has her first child. How do you write for her when she graduates from high school? How do you write for her when she has a heartbreak? How do you write these things, knowing that you're not around? I can understand how that would be painful, but it is the sacrifice. You know, it is being in a position

where you are serving someone ahead of yourself. And to me, that was so painful because I I thought, gosh, even in like the last bits of life, like show this immense love. You know, I knew that he had it. I was like, he's in there. I have felt it in so many different ways. He's been thoughtful in so many different ways. And I was angry at him for that. And truthfully, in some ways, I still haven't forgiven him for that.

Because there are moments now where I wish I had a letter. I wish I had something to give her. You know, to be like your dad thought of you at this moment. He wanted you to have something of his, his words. Because there are things that are happening now, which when he died, I would look at her and think, gosh, she doesn't even know the magnitude of what she's lost. She's no idea. And it will come to her slowly over time.

Like the things that will happen that she will then say, oh, man, I wish I had my dad, you know? there was a moment about, gosh, maybe four or five months ago. She's at a girl school here in L.A. and she, you know, has made some new friends. And they'd gone out on, like, they'd got to like Six Flags or one of those parks. And her friend's dad had taken them. And they were standing in line waiting for the ride.

And the friend's dad said that he, you know, or somewhere in the conversation came out that he's from Boston. or grew up in Boston. And so Lale was just like, oh, my dad, you know, he's from Worcester, but he lived in Boston for a while. And I think she was trying to find the connection, right? And he said to Lail, you know, it's like, oh, where are in Boston? And so she was looking at him like, hmm, I don't know.

Like that moment where she was just like, oh, I don't know, I don't know. And I don't think he meant to be insensitive, but he said, well, how do you not know where your dad is from? or where he lived. So she came home, she was heartbroken. And we're talking about it and talking through it. And she said, you know, I don't remember his voice. And I like everything. Like I was just like, oh my God.

So here I go. Like I'm looking through videos. I'm trying to find something, you know. And in that moment, I was so pissed because I was just like, why don't I have a letter? Why don't I have something to give her from him? So that she knows. he loved her. He cared about her. He like, that's all he thought about. And so even today,

I struggle with that to try and forgive him in the moment where he was reaching the end. And I'm sure all of the things that he was also contending with and that he couldn't do that bit. I still have to forgive him for that. I don't know. I insist. Pod Squad that you get this book The Urgent Life, the way that you live and love and celebrate.

It's like, Bose is proof to me that when you stay with the hard truth, you get the sparkly stuff too in like equal measures because no one has seen a woman celebrate like this woman celebrates. We need to do a whole interview

on that at some point, please. Just what in the holy hell? Just go follow her on Instagram and you'll say. Any birthday, Bose has. And happy late birthday, by the way. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Impressive. Celebrate. Thank you for the offering of this book. Thank you for teaching us how to love and live. Relentlessly and urgently. Yeah. Yeah. You're beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I am so appreciative of this time to be able to talk to you about this, to be able to connect in this way because I just feel that like in our human experience, it's not just like you have to experience the same thing I experience in order to, feel the things. You know what I mean? Like when we talk about relationships and how it feels to be in it, we all have our things. There's always like that piece where it's like, oh, yes, I felt that before,

you know? Or like you don't have to have lost your spouse to cancer to understand what it feels like to be mad at somebody, right? And then something happens to them and then still be angry at that. That's right. You know, it's like, I'm not bringing Mother Teresa out here. You know what I mean? Like, I'm still pissed off. And there are sometimes when I have to sit there and be like, girl, you got to let that go. And I'm like, no, no, let me go. I'm not. I'm so mad.

And knowing that I have to figure out how to continue to live my life and be celebratory of him with my child and make sure that she understands that he was human and not just like this big saints that everyone is wrapped in like rose-colored glasses, you know, because that's also what happens in death. but all of us have experienced something in that vein where we are trying to reconcile our feelings over something we lost or someone we lost. And so I'm really appreciative of the opportunity, not just to write this, but to talk to you about it. Thank you. Thank you.

Pod Squad, we will see you back next time, but there's no way the next episode will be better than this one. So there you've been right. Bye. Damn, those. Oh, I love you guys. I love you. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things.

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