We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 191. Why Etiquette is B.S. & New Rules for Living

Episode Date: March 21, 2023

1. When is it too late to cancel on someone? 2. How do we split the bill? 3. Text messages: What NOT to do, and is there time-induced amnesty? 4. Phone calls in public: Hell no, or do what you wish? 5. Once and for all: Can we agree on how we all get off the plane?  Today, Abby – whose mom sent her to etiquette school to learn to be a “lady” – and Glennon and Amanda – whose mom did not – discuss the New Rules for being human while surrounded by humans; the thin line between manners meant to offer consideration vs. manners meant to signal superiority; how we are all inadvertently insulting each other; and where we go from here.

They stopped asking. In some places they've never been. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. And it's just the three of us today. And while we absolutely love having guests, there's something that makes me so happy about when it's just the three of us. Because when we have a guest... Just the three of us.

We can make it if we try. Okay, that's enough. So when it's just the three of us, It kind of feels like it does when we're at our house and there's just the three of us and there's no one else to worry about, you know? I don't know. I just feel more relaxed. That's a really nice segue to our topic today, which is bad manners. Right. Bad manners. So this article came out a while back that I loved and that was so fun to read. And it was about the new etiquette. It was the cut put it out through New York Magazine. And I was intrigued by it just by the the title because etiquette has always been a hot topic in my life, our family, marriage, the whole thing. So Abby went to etiquette school. No, she did. Yes, she did. So tell us why you went to

etiquette school, why your mother sent you to etiquette school. Well, I'm the youngest of seven. And the way that it's organized as two girls, four boys, and then me. And so my sisters kind of went off to college when I was like eight, ten years old. And my mom realized that I was like burping and farting. and still running around like with my shirt off because I had these like four boys around, you know? And so she thought to herself, self, we need to fix this daughter of mine. Okay. So the four boys that were burping and farting that was not flagged as a problem. You were the one sent to etiquette school? They were not. That's correct. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. That's correct. So Abby goes to etiquette school. She learns all kinds of things like where to put your silverware and how to

Curtsy, how to properly sit, how to cross your legs underneath a chair. Right. I had to wear gloves. She wore gloves. Thank God you learned to curtsy. Yeah. Thank God you learned to curtsy because, like, April's coming upon us. And, like, it's curtsy season.

And it's just really important. How would I ever been able to accept all of those awards had I not known how to curtsy? I just want to everyone, the pod squad, to slowly imagine Abby accepting the FIFA world player of the year and curtseying. as they hand it to her. But what you do need to know is that when we started dating, she would do her etiquette. Okay? So we'd be at dinner and she'd be like putting her fork across her plate in a certain way or like doing all of these things. Because you can only eat with your right hand, which is so mean to left-handed eaters. I know. Hello. I am left-handed.

Just that pisses me off. So I have this. I'll try to explain it to the pod squad. I am anti-etiquette. My parents never taught us etiquette. We don't know anything. But I have always been a little bit proud of that. I'm going to tell you this story, Pod Squad, and I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just explaining to you what happened in our marriage. So Abby is always doing all of these etiquettey things. And there's this one time we're out to dinner and she does her fancy thing. And I just am outwardly uncomfortable. And she says, what is wrong? And I say, I don't know how to explain it, but I just feel like what you're doing with

your silverware is racist. That is not correct, except it's a little bit correct. And she looked at me like I was nuts. And I couldn't explain why. So then I felt nuts. I was just eating. I was just eating. Okay.

But here's the thing about etiquette. I believe in etiquette as I think this article suggests etiquette, which is etiquette as a way of living amongst other people in a considerate manner. Okay. That's better than the way I think about it. What I do not like is the etiquette that is not about that. It is not about living amongst others with consideration. It is about signaling your own class or superiority.

through a set of confusing actions that is like a secret language that signals superiority. Okay? P.S. I'm sure. See, this is what happens in our relationship with my sister is that I explain a lot of feelings. Like, I just feel like arranging silverware a certain way is racist. And I can't tell anyone else that. And she says, let me explain to you why.

Yeah. I say, ding, ding, ding, ding. There are actual facts you can say that support your feelings on this. Wow. Would you like me to tell you that? Please do. Makes me feel terrible about myself. No, no, no, no, no.

It's not to be terrible. So etiquette is, as you've said, this, it's a code of proper conduct. And it's to demonstrate yourself as courteous. Okay, we're going back to courteous. This is coming from the word court, which etiquette was established by the courts of kings and queens and the aristocracy to follow to be acceptable to be in their presence. And so the origin of the word etiquette is ticket. It is acting in a way in the hopes of being considered acceptable to have a ticket into a certain level of society. Wow. So it's meant to indicate that you know more or have access to some specific kind of knowledge that others don't have access to. That's etiquette. It's another way of saying through your actions, I know better. I was raised better. Yes. And you can only be better if someone else is worse. You can only be in if someone else is out. So when you're talking about the racism piece, where that comes in is the whole etiquette was made to established civilized. groups in opposition to uncivilized groups. And that went way beyond just like social casts of hierarchical differences among people. It has been a way of like justifying the most violent behavior on our planet. So if a civilized society can only be defined in opposition to a society

that's deemed uncivilized, that's where you get notions of barbaric and animalistic and heathens and all of that. And that's the way you dehumanize people in order to make violence against them justifiable. That's the way colonialism spread throughout the whole globe. It's this idea that it's not only acceptable to take over uncivilized people's land. It's actually beneficial to them because you are doing the work of civilizing them. That's the same thing that justified slavery. It's the same thing that justified English oppression over Irish people. It's the same same thing that happened in America with this idea of we're taking over the land of uncivilized Native Americans, even though our democracy incidentally is based on the Constitution of the

Iroquois Confederacy. But they were uncivilized enough to take over the land. So there is a very, very racist. And I knew all that when we were sitting at dinner. I knew all that. And I just, I didn't have time to say all of that, but that is what I knew. And so when you have the hunch that something is a knot up. Like, you know how you have those experiences where you're like, I feel like this thing is racist, but I can't explain it. Like Cracker Barrel or like golf.

There's something there. There's something there. Basically ruining my favorite things. Right. Well, take a look at yourself. Food. Golf. So here's what I want to explain about myself is this,

my favorite story about etiquette ever and manners and the difference. So imagine the. the White House. Eleanor Roosevelt is in the White House. She's having one of those dinners that the first ladies always have to have with all the people. So they have fancy people at the dinner and then also some regular people that they have brought into the White House. They're all sitting at this huge table. And back then, they have these little small bowls to the side of every plate. And the little bowls are filled with water. So the idea is that you put your fingers in to like, like wash your fingers before you.

I don't know. Some had to get shit. Okay. You put your fingers in at that time and wash your hands before you eat. Well, it was probably to wash their hands from the appetizer because it was probably a finger eating appetizer. Okay. Miss Manners. Okay.

So. So that's what was happening. Or to also wash your hands before you eat. Okay. So. Or also maybe there were small puppies on the table. Yeah. Yeah.

Something to drink. Well, now we're talking. Some little kittens. Oh, God. That's so good. Okay. So one of the regular dudes hasn't gotten the ticket. He doesn't know what this water bowl is.

So he picks up the water ball and starts drinking from it. He takes a sip from, and the table just freezes, right? Because this man has a broken etiquette. And so everyone is just staring at him and then they all look at Eleanor Roosevelt. So what does Eleanor Roosevelt do? She reaches out her hand. She picks up the tiny water bowl and she starts drinking out of the water bowl as well. That's cool.

Okay, Pod Squad. I cannot emphasize how much I love this story. She's cool. And how much I think about it. To me, etiquette is about making someone else feel comfortable and equal, not unequal. Right. In the moment. The reason I love that Eleanor Roosevelt story is because you choose the kind thing above the signaling class thing.

And that is the manners. That is true etiquette. For me, I think, yes, there's etiquette and that's one thing. And then there's manners. Right. And that's another thing. So if etiquette is the idea of saying, this is me getting access to this certain level. and you don't have access to it because you're not doing what I do, then manners is this kind of way to reflect, respect, kindness, consideration for others.

So it's like, are you doing your part to make all of society acceptable for all people? So there's no in and out group to treat yourself and others with dignity and respect and make it accessible to all people. That feels like it's manners. Yes. And etiquette is meant and meant to be. exclusive and inaccessible. If anything is a test, it's etiquette. If anything is a like hug, it's manners. Right. Okay, so we're going for manners is what we're going to call it. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? Not just a bad week,

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Go to quince.com slash hard things for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash hard things to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash hard things. Here's a tricky one that the Potspah is going to have a lot of feelings about. There are a lot of people. who are taught that saying sir or ma'am is good etiquette. It is a polite.

It is a signal of respect. In many cultures, that is a kind, good thing. I think a lot about, are we sure that's the kindest thing? Because I, in our world and with Abby, I see misgendering happening all the time. And like someone teaching children over and over again to assume what gender someone is as a matter of etiquette, it might signal that your kids have the kind of manners you want them to have. It might be a signal that your family is giving, but is it kindest to other people? Right. We don't guess people's religion.

So why are we guessing people's gender? It's like etiquette is about the self and what you're trying to exude. And manners is about the other and what you're trying to make them feel. I have like a follow-up question about the Eleanor Roosevelt. Did everybody else at the table drink the water? I don't know. I have another follow-up. Did you fact-check that?

I mean, what do you think? I feelings checked it. I feelings checked it. I felt like it's true. I don't know if it happened. I just know it's true. But I think it's an interesting. It might be an allegory.

Because we're talking about etiquette and then like the kind thing that Eleanor did with her manners to make this person not feel alone or different. It's like a science experiment to see if everybody else followed suit with Eleanor. I just love it because there's a moment when somebody is trying to say something, but they spell they are wrong. There is a moment where you decide am I going to choose signaling. that I know better. Yeah. Or offering kindness and belonging. By not signaling that I know better and responding to the content that that person said

as opposed to the code that they broke. It's choosing whether to signal my own superiority or not. There's also this idea that cross-culturally, this entirely breaks down. In Ethiopia, if you were to eat with a fork, it would be offensive. You eat with your fingers in a group together. It's only when we started being very individualistic that we ever had our own plates or our own cups. So there's this idea that you think something's wrong when you actually don't know where that

culture is coming from. So like you can't say it's wrong. It's wrong to you for your specific cultural place. Right. And if I were at a table there in Ethiopia and I did it wrong, I would hope that everybody would Eleanor Roosevelt me. I mean, there's a lot of etiquette that's totally. ableist. I used to talk about how much it drove me crazy that people were late. And then a lot of people

talked to me about how that is something that is super tricky for people with ADHD and how there's a lot of that thinking that's very patriarchal. You're absolutely right. But that just proves our point, that it's a signaling of the culture that you're trying to signal you're in. So let's move on to these actual ideas that the cut through the New York magazine put out and that we've been talking about ourselves. These are the ideas that people who wrote this article signaled were the new etiquette, okay, were the new manners, were the new way. It's the new rules for to straighten up and fly right. You know, it's like, yeah, you're shit in a pile world. Yeah. Here's the new rules. But the reason I like the article is that it felt a lot like they were heavy on how to together exist with other

human beings in a way that is. I mean, some of them. Some of them were like yikes, make bikes. Oh, okay. Let's take a look because I can't wait to talk about the ones you thought were yikes make bites. We should add new ones. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to run through some of these and you all tell me what you think. Okay, the cut said that everybody should always split the bill evenly at a dinner.

That's a toughie for me. I hate that one. I don't agree. I just think that you can get very complicated. Splitting the bill makes me anxious to begin with. But like you get complicated because what if I order $100 steak? Then you preemptively say, I want to order $100 steak. So I'm going to be paying for my thing.

Right. You don't have to only order what everyone else orders, but if you're going to go out there and be like, I want the $100 bottle of wine and I want the $100 steak, then you say it so that everyone else isn't nervous sitting with you that they're ordering a salad, but they're going to be paying $75. I feel like if you are drinking and there's someone that's not drinking, if you are ordering a lot. Why don't you just pay for what you ordered? Well, yeah, that's not splitting the bill evenly. Right? That's right. Right. I feel like everyone should pay for what they ordered. But I understand that that's complicated. Especially now with Venmo, like have one person pay for the bill to make it less complicated. And then everybody looks at their thing.

And Venmo is the person. Because there's always somebody who got the least and they might have been doing it on purpose because they're struggling to pay their bills that month or whatever. They're saving whatever their reasons are. That also deserves to be honored. I agree. And then if you find a way to do it, if we're going to do it, if we're not. one person can do it on their credit card and then Venmo, that's cool. If there's somebody that can do that, that's kind to the servers because then they don't

have to split 70 bills. So, all right, for us, we think everyone should pay for what they ordered. And then one person pays for it and then everybody Venmo's. Is that our best take on this? Don't forget the tip. Unless there's a group. I'm just going to say if there's a group that you regularly go out to eat with a group of friends. Yeah.

There's an all, it all comes out in the wash situation. then you just split it evenly and then the people who did the drinking do the tip. Excellent. People who didn't drink. I like that. I like that. And also it never all comes out in the wash. That's right.

I'm saying that that's a phrase I used to use when I was the biggest drinker at the table. That's right. It never comes out in the water. The people who say that are the ones who are washing the most. That's right. All right. Also, tipping is just like if for my thought about that, if you can't afford to tip 20%, then you just go to a.

less expensive restaurant. Yeah. Right. It's the cost of doing business people. That's the cost of doing business. Okay. They said if you're going to cancel on somebody, a social event, you have to cancel before 2 p.m. And then it's fair game. And after 2 p.m., you can't cancel. What? I mean, I'm going to recuse myself from this because I am canceling is my love language. One thing I like to do is know that I can't do the thing for like the three days leading up and then wait. And then cancel later. What is that about? That's not an ideal plan.

So like, cancel when you know you can't go. And yeah, there's a certain period after like, sorry, you just have to go. Do you think you're waiting? Because I think sometimes I wait hoping that the other person will cancel. Like it's a game of chicken. Yeah. I mean, okay, this is all good and fine. But like, why make a plan if you're going to cancel?

I know. I agree. What is the hell is the fucking point? Don't make a fucking plan. It's because it's the same reason I buy broccoli at the grocery store. I make a plan and I think that future version of myself is going to be the type of person who wants to go out to dinner or whatever. But I never become that person.

I keep waking up. So you know my trick is I do decide if myself right now doesn't want to do it. I'm not saying yes because I keep being the same person. Yeah. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on.

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One was text amnesty granted after 72 hours. So like, you know how if someone wrote to you on a text message and you go back and you have to text them about something else? Yes. But there's these old messages. So there's this awkward thing where you're like, well, now do I respond to the one from two weeks ago when I really have a whole other thing I want to be talking about? So good. So I think we just all agree that after 72 hours, those are like, bump. Starting new topic.

Those are like erase. Those are like erasible. Very race. Cool, cool, cool, cool. And speaking of texting, I also really like the one of don't ever text message someone, K, period. Just the letter K, because it basically means fuck you. Oh, God.

K period. That's my go-to. That would scare the shit. No, you don't, you don't do that to me. I've never gotten a K-period text from you. I give those all the time. Oh, well, you should stop. probably a lot of people that think. Why does that mean fuck you? Because it's like the capital

K, the period. It's basically being like no worries, but in a way more aggressive way. Okay. What about if it's without the period? Yeah. That's fine. That's good. Oh, okay. Okay. That's what I do. I don't do the period. I don't do the period. I do love this one though. No statute of limitations on a condolence note. Yeah, that's right. That one is so good because sometimes you can feel like if you didn't write right away. that it's too late and it's never too late if someone's grieving

because someone is always going to be thinking about that person. So if you have a friend who lost someone a year ago or six months ago, just do it, reach out. They might need it the most right

in this moment even more than right after it happened. Accents are not cute. Don't say they are. Damn it. Don't ever say that someone's accent is cute. It is not cute.

We don't even have to like explain that one. This makes me cringe because I feel like I've done this in my, in all of my travels. That's what that's what this is for. I'm not too. Oh, my God. I love your accent. Oh, everything you say. All the people from England.

Can you just talk? And they're like, what? Okay. How about this one, y'all? Don't call groups of people ladies. Yeah, I find that very annoying. So do I. Ladies, especially if like a man is calling a group of people ladies.

It feels like we're suddenly from the 1950s. And I just, I don't know about what about it is. Okay, then what do you call them? Because I've been in lots of groups of women. Women? You say, you say, excuse me, your table is ready. I know, but like here. You don't have any fucking ladies.

What is the point? I know. Hello. But think about like a team environment where like coaches and trying to get everybody's attention. What do they say? All right, y'all. All right.

Hey, group up. Hey, take a knee. Hey, come on over. Like, why ladies? Sporty people say. You just say that in like a general ladies feels patronizing. Why? I don't know. For the same reason, Cracker Barrel feels racist. It's just something for the same reason it's an insult to say to a group of boys running on the court, hey ladies, looking good out there. It's used as an insult. I hear that. But what if it's an actual group of women? Is that still insulting? Why in what context would you have to say ladies to an actual group of what? Okay, it's happened throughout my whole career.

Ladies, like, circle up. Come on. Okay, just question. Would any coach in any locker room say, okay, gentlemen, circle up. No, they'd say guys, guys, circle up. Guys doesn't have a connotation that is related to etiquette. Ladies has a connotation that is related to etiquette. Be a lady.

Your mother sent you to etiquette school so you can learn how to be a lady. Be a lady, be a lady. Ladies, it's a pudding in your place is how it sounds to me in a way that guys is not at all a pudding in your place. Okay. So we just need another word or nothing because we're not gendering people in groups anymore. We just need to use. I like to bring it in. Bring it in, y'all.

Bring back y'all. I have one that I hard disagree. Okay. Oh, okay. they said that it's fine when the plane lands to stand up. No. Do your thing no matter where you are. Like if we are going to have a society,

people, we all get off the plane in the order of our rose. That's what we do. That's right. Done. There's a sign. How do you do it? C30 back there? No.

Where do you think you're going? No. And I police the situation like nobody else. Somebody tries to come up and I just stand there. Okay. They literally try to get by me. I'm like, you're not getting by. Yeah.

You're back there. She does do that. Unless they have small children. Yes. Or unless they have a connection. Connections, of course. Right. Unless they have a connection or small kids or some situation that it is clear that this person needs to get off before the rest of us.

I also would not let a small child get by me. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. The kid can stand there too. Okay. Let's talk about this. I love this one. And it's loaded.

Don't say that someone. looks like someone else. Damn it. Oh, yeah. I do this a lot. I want to talk about this one. Our children are Japanese. People are always saying, you look like and then referencing the only other Japanese person

that they've ever heard up. They don't even know. They're not trying to be a certain way, but it is very obvious to us what's happening. There's racism in that. Yeah, I mean, it brings into the picture like, oh, what are they seeing in me? that they see in the other person. It's objectifying. Right. So don't, just don't say it. Just don't say you look like this other person. That's good. Also, let's not comment on people's bodies at all. God, okay, this is a really hard one for me because in the sports world, your appearance, your muscles and the way that you

present, it was like you showing yourself, you know? And so like when we would all come back together in camp, people were like, oh my gosh, you look so fit. So it's like something that I was, trained to do for a long time because we needed to give each other the affirmation in that way. Yeah. But now in the real world, I'm not allowed to do that. But my brain is like not allowing me to not do it. Yeah. I mean, our kids call it mind your own body.

Compliments to other people's bodies are just as dangerous as negative things. You just don't mention other people's bodies in any way. I loved this Katie Boozer on our Instagram. the criticism episode. She has a bunch of third graders and she wrote this. Reminded me of something that happened at school a few weeks ago. I teach third grade. A substitute walked past me as I was walking my students to recess and said, you look so thin. Is that hard for you? I was caught so off guard and I said, feeling really healthy. And then one of my sweet boys chimed in and said, we don't comment on people's bodies because it's the least interesting thing about them. Yes. Which is something she

tells her kids all the time. I just love that. It's like, yes, somebody's, you might think something about them, but if you just assume it's the least interesting thing about them, just push right on through and find something else. That's right. That's right. What are some good other options? Because I like to have, I like to have plan B. It's so good to see you. Anything about them. Hey. It's so good to see your face. How is your week going? Wow. Your energy is like so beautiful today. Uh-huh. That's a good one. I see that flirt. I see that flirt. I liked this one, gossip like the person is 12 feet away. I liked that because it doesn't imply that we're never going to gossip. But the person being 12 feet away, I feel like if the person were 12 feet away, I would say

the thing that needed to be said. So we were all like, I don't know, it honors the idea that gossip can be how we give information about people to protect each other. But it also protects the other person's humanity. Because when someone's 12 feet away, you see them as a human being and you might not say the shit you would say if that person was out of your sight. So good. I just want to talk about this one for a second. If someone is repeating a story, you have two minutes to tell them. Or two seconds.

I can't remember what it was. Two seconds. That if it's a story repeater, you have a second to be like, oh, yeah, that's a great one. I've heard that one from you. Yeah, I remember that one. So the person is signaled, but it's not all the way half through. And we have talked about that. Most of the time, they don't care.

I want to retell the story. This is called lore. This is folk lore. And I want these stories to be embedded. And I want our children when they get older to be like, oh, here she goes again. Oh, this is a story. You're on track, Abby. And they will tell.

They don't have to get older. They don't have to get older. They can just be aged out now. They will tell these stories to their children. And then I will never die. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So it's about immortality.

Before we move on, I just want to say, Abby and I had to talk about, like, what do you want me to do? Like, if you've already told a story a lot of times, like, do you want me to tell you? And she said no. And I said, okay, but what if, like, we've already heard it? Or everybody's already known it. And she goes, it's not about whether you've heard it. It's about whether I want to tell it.

Yep. Yep. I have not stopped thinking about since that moment. It's not about wanting to tell it again. Yeah, but do you also want to know why that is? Because in our family, with children, I have to censor so much of what I want to say. and I've got some stories that I know are true that are tried and they're true and they're safe.

And so this is why I keep telling the same fucking stories. And in that moment, what would be good manners from me as your wife who loves you would not be, she's told the story before. It would be like, this is important for her to tell the story. So I am open to hearing the story again. Okay, Sissy, what are some of yours? I think if you have just met someone

and you are not sure you are saying their name correctly, don't just cross your fingers and power through and say it really quickly. Take a moment and say, I'd really like to make sure I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Yes. Is it X? Is that correct? Yes.

Because if not, then the onus is just on that person who probably constantly gets their name mispronounced to either, like, take the initiative to say it or just to always have their name misstated. Yes. This is something I am trying really hard to do, and it is hard. But I think it would be great if we only said sorry when we are sorry. I feel as if, oh, sorry, I didn't get that email back to you yesterday.

Oh, sorry, I've just been really busy. So I'm responding to this. Like, I'm 90% of the time I say I'm sorry. I'm absolutely not sorry. I don't have a reason to be sorry. This is just life and the way it works. And I feel like it undervalues then those moments that you're actually sorry when you're like, I'm really sorry I did that to you. Yes. It just devalues it. So I am trying, even though it's uncomfortable, you know, I get back to someone a day late. I'm actually not sorry about that. Yep. I prioritized other things. Just saying, thanks for your patience. Here it is. I love it. If you're a business owner who knows nothing about AI and feels really out of the loop, you're not alone. In today's data-driven world, you really need to understand your customers, and NetSuite can deliver those insights with zero fuss. No more waiting.

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Right now, get our free business guide, demystifying AI at netsuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at net suite.com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. Here's one that we used to work on in third grade a lot in my classroom. When someone says I'm sorry, you don't have to say it's okay or no problem. Like, or no, no, don't be sorry. When someone says I'm sorry, you get to accept that apology. So when someone says, I'm sorry, you don't have to say, it's okay because it wasn't okay.

When someone says, I'm sorry, you can say thank you so much. it feels more complete than like someone tried to give you in a gift with an apology and then you shoved it away. Yeah. Because it's not okay or the other person wouldn't have been apologizing. I have some technology ones. Do not go into a phone vortex at dinner. This one's from the article. Yes, please. Like check your phone. Make sure your kids or whatever. But la la, say what, but do not like just start scrolling at dinner when you're sitting with a person. It's just the signal is this thing is more important or you're boring as hell. So I need to go through Instagram right now. Okay, if you are FaceTiming or speakering someone and someone else is in the room or car, please say it right away.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, God, yes. Notify for sure. Right? If you call me, I'm going to be like, Mom's in the car. Hi. Hi, Sissy. It's me and mom.

Yeah. You have to assume whoever you're talking to is about to talk shit about that other person in the room. Exactly. Because you never fucking know, right? Yeah, that's right. Okay. And we don't talk shit about you, mom. No, no, no, no.

But in case we were going to, I would single it, okay? But if we do, we do it as if you're 12 feet away. Right. Exactly. Okay. Ask before posting pictures of your friends. I really think that you should ask because people have complicated lives. You don't know if that person did not tell her family she was going to be at that thing or you don't know.

Just people have complicated lives. Including their kids. Include. Oh, my gosh. Before posting anybody's kid, before posting any... Another person. Don't post a stranger on the internet. Like, we don't know people's lives.

Just careful of posting. Also, this is a hilarious one that I do not describe TikToks. What I want you to know about my family is that 50% of the communication between my children and my wife, between everyone is describing TikToks to each other. Didn't they say that it was like, it was, they likened it to, people describing their dreams. It's the same as somebody trying to explain a dream to you. Yes, it's that boring. Okay. For the love of all that is holy, stop having speakerphone conversations or FaceTime conversations or conference calls in public. I disagree with this one. It's one of the

the reason I don't go out in public because I cannot stand this wild, wild west we have created where everyone thinks that their conversation with their, you know, workers or their colleagues or their whatever is important enough to take up the audio space in a public space. I think it is so unbelievably rude. It's rude, but I also think that like your need for the private quietness is also the same energy that the people who are just choosing to do their own thing. It's just opposite. That's fascinating. You're saying, oh, these people are so self-centered. need it to be like this. And Abba, you're saying, Glennon, you're so self-centered. You think you

have the right to go out in public and have it be like this. Well, I hear that. But I also think that for the whole history of time, public has been a place where we try to imagine that there are other people in the space. There's audio privilege. There's audio entitlement. We're talking about privilege here, girl. You've never seen a person in an airport more upset about somebody having a phone conversation with somebody else. And Glennon is, she's looking at me. She's looking at them. She's looking at me.

I'm a lot more sensitive to sound. I'm listening to myself and I want everyone to know that I am hearing what you're hearing. I am hearing the privilege and control. Picking up what you're putting down. And needing public spaces to be quiet. You just want them to be less loud. I just want everybody to be less loud. Yeah.

I don't think that you need them to be quiet. I think that you want them to be at the proper volume decibel. I'm stunned. Stunned. Stunned by the loudness of the world. I have a few more. Okay, great. So I don't know if we're still doing the thing where people are selling things and they want us to go over to their house and buy the things.

I want to support my friends and their business endeavors and what they're doing. So I think a good rule, if you're selling things but you're having a party and inviting people over to buy the things, I think that a rule should be that in that invitation, you give an option of people who won't be able to attend, but they can help you get your business off the ground by buying something online or by just making a gift to you to support your business. Because I don't ever, ever in a thousand years want to go to one of those parties where I buy things. No. But I do want to support my friends.

So I think that's a good rule. Cool. Good rule is to just believe me when I say, say that no one wants to talk to you about your kid's IQ or what grade level they're reading at or how the curriculum isn't challenging enough for them. No one. Literally no one wants to talk to you about that unless they are that child's parent or they share significant amounts of DNA with you. That's right. So just hard stop. Or their teacher or their teacher. People are having a hard time out there. Just be grateful and happy for yourself.

and speak to it only to your sister or partner and to no one else. I also think this one has been working for me. I'm a very competitive person and my kid plays really competitive games. And I have a hard time with my emotional regulation. I have found that it is very helpful for me to cheer for the kids I know that. are on the other team. But the act of cheering for them regulates me, and I'm so excited when anyone does something good. Yes, that's good.

It's a good tip. Yes. I don't know. Cheer for your kids, team. So cheer for children as if they are 12 feet away. Because they are. Cheer for children as if they are under 12 years old and 12 feet away. As long as you're cheering for and not against.

Shout out to how hard that is, though. Yes. It is a real testament that we as grown-ass adults, can go stand with a bunch of eight-year-olds. And because they have signed up for a different team, hate them and their families immediately. Pretty weird. Exactly.

That is so weird. Okay, can I give my one that's my biggest pet peeve? Yes. I have a suggestion to make. Uh-oh. And that is that you should never suggest that you knew something or suspected something was a problem. After it becomes a problem.

if you didn't share that you thought it would be a problem before. Before it became a problem. Here's how that looks. Oh, this bad thing happened. Yeah, I kind of thought that was like that. No, fuck you. Yeah. You, if you think something's a problem, you say it as soon as you think it or you forfeit.

You go to the grave with the fact that you knew that was going to be a problem. Speak previously or forever hold your speaking. Yes. Nobody thinks you're smart because you had the foresight to think that might be a problem because you sat on that shit and didn't share with the girl. I love it. And, and, and, and, and, and, also, also, there's a part of that that is about centering yourself. Like, I always, another example of that is, y'all, she proposed last night. We're engaged.

There's always the friend that's like, I knew that was going to happen last night. I knew it. Yeah, yeah. I knew it. I saw these things and I knew it and I knew it. And suddenly, and we're like, now we're talking about you. Suddenly, the whole group is turned to talk about how she knew that this thing was going to happen. Like, no, no, no. That is, there's a moment where you decide, do I make this about me or do I keep the emphasis on the right syllable? Which is the person who just gave the big news. You all, I loved this episode.

I do. So Pod Squad, we need you on this one. Call us at 747-200-5307 and tell us what are your ideas about the new etiquette. Okay. How should we behave in spaces with other human beings? Let us know. Or if you're less of a caller and more of a writer, email us at WCDHT Pod. That's what we can do hard things pod at gmail.com. We love to hear from you.

We know you're going to have thoughts about our ideas. Please don't be mad at us. It's just different. I knew this podcast was a bad idea. Fuck you. We love you, pause squad. We'll catch you next time. Bye.

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and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review, and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. Through fire, I came out the other side.

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