We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 192. Women at Work & The Episode That Wasn’t with Sarah Spain

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

Pioneering sports journalist – the brilliant, hilarious, badass Sarah Spain – joins us to reflect on: 1. One of our most popular episodes – Episode 147: The Episode That Wasn’t – when we ended an interview after the guest was disrespectful to our team member; 2. The constant indignities and inequities in male-dominated fields; 3. To report or not to report harassment – and what actually happens when you do report?; and 4. How to help ourselves – and come together to help each other – secure safer and more just work spaces.   CW: sexual harassment  About Sarah:  Sarah Spain is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning sports journalist. In her 12+ years at ESPN she has worked as a radio and podcast host, writer and TV analyst. She's a minority owner of the Chicago Red Stars of the NWSL, a co-founder of “Hear The Cheers,” which provides hearing aids and equipment to kids so they can continue participating in sports, and is on the board of Embarc, a program that provides community-driven experiences and learning opportunities to low-income Chicago high school students.  TW: @SarahSpain IG:@spain2323

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are doing something we've been waiting to do for a while, which is talk about one of the episodes from last year that caused the biggest splash. And that was the episode that wasn't. for those of you who don't remember the episode that wasn't, what happened in short is that we had this guest that was supposed to come on and we prepared for eons and we were so excited about the guest. And then what happened was that the guest's husband came on to do the tech check and was aggressive towards our producer. And our producer reported it to us in our other little Zoom room where we were waiting. And she was hurt and stressed. Activated. Yes. And we spent a minute trying to figure out what to do and how to make it better.

And then we remembered that we were the bosses of the podcast and that we didn't have to do shit that we didn't want to do. And so sister went over, canceled the podcast, said, Godspeed, go on your. asshole way. And I'll just say it was episode 147. So go back and get the background because it was also the guest herself was very undermining of the situation and passive aggressive. And also none of the people you guessed is who it is. And we're not talking about that. We're talking about how this happens all the time. So let's just not do that. It's not about that. It's not shaming a certain in person. It's about something bigger, which became clear after we launched that episode, and we got almost 8,000 voicemails in two days because so many people, especially women,

resonated with being a part of a system that is male dominated and being mistreated in a million different ways in those scenarios. And so in our wish to continue that conversation, we were trying to figure out who do we want to bring to this conversation to discuss this further. Yep. And all of us decided Sarah Spain. We've got to have Sarah Spain. And one of the reasons we just effing love Sarah Spain. Yeah.

She's like this Venn diagram of me and Abby. We can both love her. It's so true. Because she's like totally sporty spice but also totally feminist spice. She's just the right spice. Both spices. Sarah Spain is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning sports journalist in her 12-plus years at ESPN. She has worked as a radio and podcast host, writer, and TV analyst.

She's a minority owner of the Chicago Red Stars of the NWSL, but we love her anyway, a co-founder of Hear the Cheers the Cheers, which provides hearing aids and equipment to kids so they can continue participating in sports and is on the board of Embark, a program that provides community-driven experiences and learning opportunities to low-income Chicago high school students. And Sarah, the reason why we wanted you here for this conversation is because of all of those things, but also because we were thinking, what's the most extreme version of this that we can imagine? And maybe one of the iterations of an extreme version of this, I would also suggest my feminist

friends in the evangelical church, but would be. a woman picking ass in the sports world. So welcome, Sarah Spain. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. My face is like exploding. My cheeks are like bright red and I'm like smiling so big that my face is hurting because hearing you guys say such nice things about me because I love you all so much

and I'm so excited to talk to Amanda who I haven't met before. And I'm so excited to talk about this. Although I will say that at least unlike your evangelical friends, The people in the sports world act like they have a mission from God to keep women out, but they don't actually invoke God. So there's like one step below the kind of power that they believe that they wield. So I'll give it up to the evangelicals. They probably have it worse. I just need to just wow to that.

I mean, actually, that's some deep shit. Because Gloria Steinem recently said on our pod, like religion is just politics you can't argue with. Yes. Yes. Because if they were saying literally God wants only men in sports, I'd be like, I don't know where to go with you if you believe that. And instead they say dumb shit, like, genetically women don't understand sports. And then I could use science to be like, actually, there is no like DNA coding for like knitting versus understanding a cover two defense. It's not, you'll not find it in science, but you can keep trying. Whereas with God, I'm like, okay, I guess that's that's what you think. So where do you go from that? Probably. Probably. Okay. So. Okay. So. You are a woman that is in an exceptionally male-dominated field. I know that field well. And so we wanted you to come here for that reason.

And also because we love you. Because in many ways, this means you represent what every woman in the workplace or social media endures. Except yours is that much more egregious. You came to this field because you love this work in sports. but your work is not evaluated according to the criteria of work in sports. Your work is evaluated exclusively as a woman. Yeah, it's actually reminded me of a conversation you all had recently where you talked about feedback, which is a nice word for criticism.

And I think about that a lot because I'm okay with people disagreeing with my sports opinions. And when they do that, that's part of the give and take. of the job I do, but usually it's not that. I can't believe anyone married you or you're fat or any number of things that have nothing to do with my job. And also, being on TV doing the job means that while I have to learn all of the same things about all of the sports, then I have to decide what am I going to wear and what's my makeup going to look like? And is every single comment going to be about, you know, what I look like? And the funny ones are just middle-aged men that are like, what are those earrings today? And I'm always like, what? I just have a saved thing that just says,

Vera Wang, is that you? Because I'm like, it's so distracting from the work and it's inescapable. And I have to say, I was pretty naive growing up because I came from a family of two parents who were lawyers. They have a law practice together. So they didn't just talk about equality, but they modeled it. My mom did way more of the work at home. It certainly was not indicative of a real partnership. but in the workplace and the way that people talked about my mom, I recognized that she was a badass. And I recognized that she was out doing something that was special. And so I grew up sort of thinking, okay, I mean, I was six feet tall when I was 12.

So I was kicking all the boys' asses. I was super type A, like all-state abandoned chorus and field hockey and track and basketball. And I did all the things. And I was like, I'm saying, I'm just going to do all the things. as well as possible, and then no one can say I'm not allowed anywhere. And I actually believed it for most of my life. I experienced sexism and misogyny, but it never really got in my way in the spaces I was in because I was extremely fortunate to go to a great college and all that stuff.

I got out of college and got into the sports world. And I was like, oh, shit, I have to deal with this stuff too. I'm not immune to this just because I was a Division I athlete and an Ivy League student and I was coming in super prepared and ready to go, I was still going to have to deal with harassment and sexism and misogyny and disrespect and people assuming I didn't know what I was doing. And that completely changed my perspective that had been very, very privileged and very naive. That's the great leveler, the place where you can't insulate yourself. Yeah. Exactly. Do you experience it not only from the outside,

side, because a lot of this is reactions from people on social media, which is one thing. But you're also experiencing, and I imagine, within the structure that you're trying to work inside of not just outward facing, but inward institutionally. Yeah. My first big interview for what would have been a killer job when I was just behind the scenes trying to get started in sports, the person I was going to be partnered with on camera was out of the city doing something and was coming back in late. And they said, well, We can't do a straight-up interview. We'll have to chat with you guys and do some on-camera stuff tomorrow.

But he's getting in, why don't you guys grab dinner and just, you know, we could talk. You can get to know each other. And over the course of the several hours I spent with this person, he tried to kiss me. He told me about his manscaping. He talked about what kind of sex we would have. He introduced me to another employee by saying, do you know what color eyes she has? I haven't made it up there yet. The next day when we went into the office, I presume that this was unique to him, but we're in front of the person doing the hiring.

and he said, after last night, I came up with an idea for a show. It's just me standing over Sarah sitting in a chair for an hour looking at her tits. And the person hiring was like, that's hilarious. And I was like, what am I getting into? And I called, you know, home. And I just was so upset because I had, again, read about it and heard about it. And I just thought, well, not me. You know what I mean?

And that's another thing that it really opened my eyes to was. the judgment that we have of women who are victimized or mistreated as in whatever way being different from us, that there must be some reason that that's happening, instead of understanding that men who behave in this way do not need any excuse, do not need anything within what you are and who you are to behave in this way. And so it's very hard afterwards not to feel some sort of shame about what you might have done to bring it on yourself. And it's been impressive to see how a male-dominated sexist industry has made me so much more of a feminist than I was before I got into it because it just made everything so much more obvious when it was done.

That's fascinating to think about the viewing sexism and harassment as something that is avoidable is almost a self-defense mechanism. Because if you start out with that presumption, that you're not going to be able to escape it, that's devastating. You don't want to believe that you are working your ass off in a system where you will inevitably face that. So you have to other these people that have experienced it in order to save your hope that you can be immune from it. That applies to sexual assault, harassment, all sorts of things that's called the just world ideology. And it's the idea that if we do everything right, nothing bad should happen to us. And it's the main reason that people victim blame.

I was doing a story on Larry Nassar, the awful abuser at Michigan State, and people were asking questions about 13 and 14-year-old girls that he had abused about what were they wearing or doing or why didn't they know any better. I was so infuriated and I couldn't figure out what possibly could drive someone to blame a 14-year-old girl. And so I wanted to write about it. And I found some experts. And the just world ideology is essentially, if I dress right, act right, walk in the right

places, don't walk after dark, do all these things, then nothing bad will happen to me. And to live in a world where you believe that you're not in control of whether something awful can happen to you is so scary that people would rather find a way to blame those who are the victims. People are going to find a way for you to have caused what happened to you. And so it would suck to enter an industry and believe it doesn't matter how hard I work or how smart I'm hard, good the work is. It's going to happen anyway. And that's 100% what this industry is. But in a way, is that our only hope? I mean, in a way, that's so devastating. It's devastating to look at your daughters and be like, this will happen to you. But by pretending it won't,

we are setting them up for a disaster and then making them feel like it's their fault that it did, as opposed to saying, this is what you will face in life. Here are resources. You need to start talking to other women in your industry. You need to establish. a network where you can find out who's safe and who's not, which one is better, like preserving this ideal? But we also have to tell them that once it happens to them, the just world idea will come in and they will be crucified anyway. Because people who are raised in the atmosphere of, but what was she wearing? But was she drinking? That's still going to come. That's the hardest part. You can tell them, and you should. And I've done podcasts and stories where I talk to people

across my industry, other women who have experienced similar things because I want the ones coming up to know they're not alone. It's not their fault. It happens all the time, unfortunately, and this is likely what will happen if you want to report it. And this is why a lot of women don't, right? Because you will do all the right things, and it won't necessarily mean that anything will happen for that man, or worse, that it may affect your ability to work in the industry, because people will label you as someone who is a problem. And because you don't have value, it usually happens when you're at the very start of your career. Yes. You don't have any value. In that particular instance, I hadn't even been hired yet. What am I going to do? Tell them this multimillion dollar guy on TV did this and

they should care. That's so important to say because I feel like we all have anecdotal experiences of things not working out with reporting. But I was fascinated to learn that there was this huge study in 2020 that said that 40% of women are sexually harassed at work. And that number has not changed since the 1980s. That's amazing. That's insane. That's 50 years of alleged progress. And it's the exact same number. And of the people that are harassed, only one in five reported. And in the first set of research that we have on all of this, we find out that, But that's for a very good reason, that the exhaustive studies have found that women who file harassment complaints end up, on average, in worse jobs and in poor physical and mental health than women who keep quiet. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge.

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net suite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at net suite.com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. So here's the question, Sarah, for you. I want to know for real in your industry, because we're also separated from this now, right? Like one of the things that was amazing to me about the episode that wasn't is like we had this experience where this dude came in and we were able to step away from it.

Yeah. That was like something that was wild to us. And the feedback was like, you don't understand. This is my life every day at work. This is what I deal with day in and day out. And I don't have the power to just leave. This is my career. What does anything work?

We know that reporting it actually often makes women's lives harder. I'm not interested in making women's lives harder. Just for some freaking idea that somebody said we should do. Like horseshit. Is there a third way? Is there anything that you have found? This is something I talked to people coming up in my industry. about all the time because I want to make it okay, but I know that I can't. I'm not in charge of all

those people that your listeners work for who are awful and who are not evolved and who don't plan on changing anytime soon. So I can't just tell them to behave in a certain way, understanding and knowing that the situation that they're in will not allow for it. It's what's right versus what works, right? I remember listening to my all-time faves, Sue Bird and Megan Rupino were on your show and Megan said, let's just live in the future. Let's just pretend that we're already there. And in so many cases, I do that. And I repeat that all the time from Pino. I'm like, I'm just going to live in the future where I'm going to do this and this and this. And I don't care what the response is. This is how it should be. But that is not the appropriate response in so many

places, particularly your job if you depend on it and your family depends on it. So what's right versus what works. If you have to completely reject your integrity and your values in order to continue existing in a situation, then at whatever cost you can, you should find a different situation. If it is extreme enough that you are every single day being asked to not be aligned with your values, to contribute to that for other people as well, if like in the case of the episode that never was, you're now excusing it and dismissing. the behaviors that you know are wrong because you have to for your job. If you can, you need to find another situation. If you know that your boss and the people at the highest levels of your company

will not listen if you talk about harassment, then if you can, change it. And if you can't, maybe you have to go somewhere else. And I think it's that at every single level. You do as much as you can within the system that you can. And if you hit a point where it feels like it is impossible, then I have no answer for you and I wish I did. But maybe you have to remove yourself. And it's bullshit. It's fucked up that we have to leave because of the behavior of men or a culture that's wrong. But ultimately, the power is at the highest levels.

And if the highest levels aren't forced to change, then they will do whatever it takes to keep their power. And that includes the culture that makes women quieter. and have to deal with all this stuff. It goes to me to your original point of like you had worked your ass off to get to a place where you'd be insulated from this. Then you show up through no fault of your own. You are on the receiving end of this terrible behavior. If someone's in that position and it's so egregious that then they have to leave,

that's the part that makes me even more angry because it's like everything that you have done that you have worked for. I didn't report my workplace harassment because I could read a room. I knew that my career would not be remembered by like hard work or accomplishment or sacrifice or wins, but it would be after and during, excruciating, humiliating, quote unquote, investigations and ridicule with very little possible upside. My career would be remembered at best with a headline of, oh, that woman who had that horrible thing happened to her. And that more likely that I was a sensitive attention seeking lady who caused a big scandal. Well, you probably wanted money.

That's what we always want. Even though women who report things never end up being rich and famous and being miserable. And they lose money because they get demoted and they have to leave their jobs. And they don't get hired again because they're troublemakers. Right. Exactly. So I said nothing at the time. And now I'm wondering about this whole thing.

Did you hear about the shitty media men phenomenon in 2017? This woman in the media world, after hearing about her colleagues who had been harassed and abused in publishing, she started this Google Doc because she was like, we have no way of knowing this. It's so injurious for people to report things that they're not, but we're walking around. We don't know who we need to avoid. She started this Google Doc. 12 hours later, it had 70 men on it in the media industry just from people sending it to friends with folks who had rape people, harassed people, unwanted advances, all of that. It was so interesting to me because I'm like, is there some...

Third way. Yes, this third way situation. I mean, granted, that got leaked out. It forced some employers to investigate, which led to firings and investigations. but no one was prosecuted, no one was sued, except for the woman. Except for the woman in the spreadsheet. That's what I was going to say.

Yeah, because I think there's like a website like that to have a couple single gals that are on it that's like, are we dating the same guy? And you're supposed to be able to go search for a guy and see if there's a bunch of red flags and other women saying. And at its core, if everybody were authentic and genuine and principled people, that would work great. Unfortunately, you do have to take it with a grain of salt.

Like, did this person actually, do something, you know what I mean? Or some guy goes on there and pretends to be a woman and takes out some competitor, right? You just never know with those things. The goal should be, though, and I went and looked at that list. And I have it up here in my head. And I think about it, right? And I keep an eye out.

It's not that I'm going to say with certainty and affinity, because that's not fair to anyone, but I do keep an eye out for it. And what's interesting is you talked about how you knew your job wouldn't get better. So a couple of years ago, when the Cubs won the World Series, they were on the path to winning, and I was covering a lot of it for SportsCenter, and I had this particular producer that I worked with a handful of times. He was freelance, and he always had these inappropriate comments. He was annoying, but I just would shrug them off. And then that day, we were waiting to get started, and we were watching video of the Cubs celebrating in the clubhouse.

And there was a female reporter in there with them doing interviews. And I think she got a bunch of beer thrown on her, and she was having a blast with all the guys, so she covered all year. And he said, how many of them do you think she's had sex with? And I said, probably none of them. That's her job. And he was like, oh, it's such a joke. And I was like, yeah, but you know what? Every woman in this business from like age 20 to 60 gets accused of that all the time.

I can't name a single woman in the business that someone has said, oh, I heard she does, you know, whatever. So just don't do that. And so he kind of seemed sheepish, but like didn't fight back. And then when the rest of the crew showed up, he said, everybody look out for Sarah today. She's on her period. Nope. Nope. Right?

And in the moment I said, I'm not on my period. I told him to stop behaving in a sexist way or whatever I said. And that's all I did. And it wasn't until years later that I was writing a story about harassment and how many people are that guy on that spreadsheet that it's like the worst kept secret kind of guy and how nobody does anything. And so I called and I told the SPN, I think you should look into this person. Every time I worked with him, he said sexist things about women. I was not comfortable working with them. And I didn't want to be contributing to it by not saying anything because I'm sure he works with other women who are, it's even harder for them to deal with.

And ultimately what happened is they interviewed a whole bunch of people to see who else had worked with him. And he is not a freelancer anymore and is not able to work with our company anymore. But it took me years to be like, I can be that person. And also the empathy factor. I was like, oh, but you know, he has a job. I, that gets in the way of me, even in moments where I know somebody is wrong. I am deeply held back by like, oh, but you know, I just feel bad being responsible for anything bad happening to someone, even if they're the fucking worse. Sarah, Kate Mann calls that empathy.

Yes. That we are wired by this culture to feel so bad for men. We feel like I cannot hurt that man's feelings. I will eat my feelings for a year before I will dare. We have to fight that deep empathy thing. Yeah. I think that what's under all of this, too, is when women enter into a workplace that is dominated by men, it's this like subconscious thought that, oh, I have to fit in here somehow. And so there's going to be things that I'm going to need to take.

Like a man. Like we have to turn ourselves into men. And if this guy is saying something to me, does he see me as one of the guys? Like there's all of this confusing messages that we're getting. And like you said, once you get that platform or you've been with a company long enough where you can actually have a voice, what can we do to help the younger generation? Because if reporting isn't doing anything, if coming forward is making our lives fucking worse, how do we actually help the next generation?

I got to believe in a third wave. Like, I cannot just do, we stay and eat it or we leave. Is there a way to use people like me on the outside? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's the extreme ways which have worked, which is litigation and threats and things like what ultimately resulted from Me Too in times up, right? Where there was a feeling of fear that if you didn't change your culture and behave differently. But to your point, Abby, there is the power of ascension within a space by people who are allies,

male or female, wherein they can try to change the culture one. step at a time to make it better for the people coming up. It doesn't feel as dramatic as being able to, you know, change that your boss sucks. But for instance, at ESPN, when I hear or see something from across our networks, which we have many, where people employed by us, I'll send it behind the scenes to the higher ups and say, did you notice that this radio host asked a female coach who came on, you know, whether the girls on her team were cute or what their outfits look like? Did you notice that this person that was on SportsCenter was doing a soccer highlight for women. And when they got out of the way of a penalty kick, asked if they were not wanting to get their hair messed up.

Like these little microaggressions, I will send them along. And I will say, we need to have conversations with people when they say and do these things so that it's in their brains when they go to work, that it's not going to just be okay. And it sucks that that's part of my job is basically be a nag and a telltale, but I don't care. Those people should be thinking about those things when they're at work, as much as I have to think about them all the time. And so I think that's one of the things, Abby. And for me personally, like, whenever I bring up any issues of sexism and misogyny in sport, I lose fans. There are just a lot of sports bros who really want me to just be a cute girl that they can grab a beer and talk sports with, who is one of the guys. And

isn't that the best compliment in the world? You're not a woman. You're one of the guys, which makes you cool. And we earned a lot of, as you say, proximity to power through that, Abby for our whole lives by being able to keep up with the guys, both as an athlete and quick wit and sarcasm. I got through my entire career by being able to make jokes about inappropriate things so that I could make things calm and not reject someone to their face or call them out to their face. I would do it in a funny way. And then we could all keep it. it moving. And that served me for a certain amount of time. Now, I've been around too long. I am using my voice and my agency to call things out. I don't care if I lose fans. I don't care if people think

I'm not one of the guys and I'm not cool. My intent now is not make myself more famous and richer. My intent is to change a situation and an industry that I am now big enough part of that people listen to me. How do you make sure that if you are someone who is strong enough, and I, again, like I benefit very much from very good mental health. I can take the trolls. I can take the criticism. I could take all that. So it's kind of up to me to make sure that I'm holding it down so that people who are

struggling more with that kind of thing don't have to face it alone. I just, I think that's as big a part of it is understanding once you get a certain amount of power, not to just sit in it and be happy that you made it. Oh, I get to be the one example of a woman who's thriving in a male-dominated industry. No, no, no. you get to now pay back all of the good luck and fortune that you had by getting to where you are. Damn. I just want to point out one thing that you just said that I've never heard anyone say in my entire life, which Abby's going to laugh at because we had this conversation yesterday. You just said you are,

whatever word did you use, lucky enough or whatever, to have good, strong mental health so that you can, blah, blah, blah. I've never heard anyone. I call that privately, I don't know if I'll get in trouble for this, mental health privilege. Like, remember, she was telling me some story about some dude. What's his name? He went to this, like, dark retreat for five days. Oh, no, Aaron Rogers. So he could make a decision. Like, he stayed in the dark for five days. So he could make a decision about his career. The mental health privilege. He's been in the dark a little longer. A little longer. Yeah. So anyway, just thank you for that. Because that's a real thing. I want to say this to you guys, because this is extremely, like, this podcast means so much to me. not for maybe the same reasons as everyone else, but because I am blessed with great mental health. I have very secure relationships. I moved through the world, taking credit for so many things that I had nothing to do with

because I didn't understand the challenges that other people had. And in fact, a lot of times I judged them because I'm super outgoing. I'm going to show up anywhere, talk to anyone. And I just thought, why are people like that? Right? Yeah. And because I love you.

guys so much, instead of judging the pathologies that I used to find annoying, I'm now empathetic towards them, and I realize that understanding them makes me so much better of a person and so much more of an ad to any situation I'm in, because instead of thinking, well, I'm right and the way I do things is right, and everyone else is wrong, it's like, no, no, no, the way I do things gets one result. And if I were any of these other different people, the result would be different, and that is magical and necessary. And the way you guys talk on this podcast just proves that over and over again because the ways you come at it is all different. And if I didn't listen even to the ones that I'll click and be like, I don't know about this one. And by the end, I'll be like, fuck, yes. How did I

never think about this before? It's necessary, though, to see the things that you took credit for and instead say, how blessed was I? That I didn't fight for that. That I just got that. And then now I have to use it. And I feel that way in my business, I'm a straight, cis, white, aesthetically decent looking person who can take it when people say awful things to me. I'm not sending someone who's already strapped with racism and disability prejudice or anything else to the front lines and expecting them to do it. They've got all this other shit that people are throwing at them. So I can take it. I think it's also a conversation around the institution that you're in and the people that you go to, your bosses. So I would suggest,

somebody trying to get into these new spaces to at the interviews, ask, what are your reporting policies and who does that go to and how is it handled? I think that because you've built a relationship with your bosses who you know are going to at least have a conversation, maybe that person doesn't get fired, but that person now has the idea bubble in their head that they take with them to work every day. And that is actually consciousness shifting because you, you're putting out media into the world that people are consuming. And so if you're changing it in just this little way, it's going to have these huge consequences positive, I think. Well, and I think also who do you surround yourself with? If you're someone who's going to be in a situation where you go into work every day and you deal with these awful things, how are you making sure that there are outlets to talk about it so that you're not just digesting and keeping it in and being miserable all the time? Because even if it doesn't fix it, you can go talk to someone and at least get it off your. chest, that that wasn't okay. The behavior's not right. You know that it isn't right. Instead of being

in it for so long that you become conditioned to accept it in a way that transforms you into someone who doesn't see that there's something wrong. When I started my career and I had not yet met my husband, he was more of a feminist than I was. I've been working in sports where I was one woman in a room of 40 and being like, oh, it's good enough. And every once in a while I would say something to him be like, that's messed up. I'd be like, yeah. Actually, it is. And like, what? Yeah, I shouldn't just take that.

And so who are you surrounding this podcast? If this is what you can get, keep listening to this because the voices are going to keep getting in there. But also, who are the women you surround yourselves with? Are they women who defend this behavior and stick up for their husbands when they're being awful? Are they men who are going to call out other men when you're not around? Or are they the ones that are going to make you feel wrong for feeling activated?

I think people underestimate how much their opinions about things change by who they surround themselves with. And if you're not willing to go around and make some tough decisions about who's in your ear all the time and say to those people, we're not going to have that conversation or I don't want to talk about these things with you because I don't think your opinion on it is humane or fair or right. And I set those boundaries on that because it gets in there. That's an answer to me. Like if women are in this situation and there's nothing, we don't have a structure yet to change it. We can at least not become it.

We can at least outside of it have some level of sanity. So we are not gaslit into becoming the very thing that hurts us. It's a new year. And instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my space to feel calmer, more functional, and a little more like a place that can reflect my goals and energy for this year, which is why I've been turning to Wayfair. It's truly a one-stop shop for everything your home needs this season.

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to rethink how you want to feel. You can get matched with a coach in just a few minutes and sessions are flexible, private, and built around the reality of your life. Go to strawberry. dot me slash we can do hard things and try a coaching session for 50% off. Strawberry.combe, because your career should feel good again. It takes like what Sarah was saying. When you're growing up in a male-dominated industry. I was at a law firm. That's pretty extreme, too. And your job is to make it. Your job is to get through those interactions and laugh it off and brush it off. Just as you were talking, I had a realization for the first time. I was recruiting at a law school. So like, these people were theoretically trying to impress me because I was going to hire them for our law firm,

standing there talking to a bunch of students with the HR people from my firm when one of the students that I was going to interview the next day looks at me and says, take off your clothes. What? Settle. But like I hadn't thought of it until this moment

and I said, man, if I had a quarter. Right. Because I had to get through that moment to not make it awkward for everyone and everyone's like, ha, ha, ha. So it's this cyclical disaster because it's like, okay, your job is not to make it a big deal. Your job is to make it a little deal. And then the people are like, see, it's a little deal.

These people over here making it a big deal are the ones that are the problem. But it's a set up from the beginning. Every time I just saw a quote. It was like, behind every angry woman is something to be a lot angrier about than that the woman is angry. We're going to focus on the angry woman. And it's like, no, look at the shit. There's a reason she's angry. And it's like, no, we would rather be mad at her for bringing it to our attention and disrupting the fact that we all were willing to ignore it because it doesn't bother us.

Right. And all of those people who around me, the HR people, the hiring partners, the whatever, all were very happy to laugh and never circle back to it. And that son of a bitch was not even part of my firm. He was trying to get a job at my firm and no one said anything to him. flagging that even son of a bitch is misogynist. Like even when we're insulting men, we actually are going to pull his mom into it. Sorry. I want to just talk about one thing because I have like so much compassion for the women who are maybe 10, 20, 30 years older than us that have been in worse systems than we are in now that sometimes become the thing that we're talking about, that they have by.

necessity of safety and survival, they have had to adapt in order to stay in those systems to give us this platform. This might be controversial. I don't know. I want to send those women love. Women who have needed to do certain things in order to survive in these spaces who've been as misogynistic and have been doing it for their survival through their whole careers. And we can look at them and judge them. And I think that we have to actually be mindful and step back a little bit and understand the full scope of women in the workplace. Different time, different survival techniques. I think the grace is required, but that doesn't mean that the gentle conversations can't happen. You're not too old to still learn and to understand

how you're contributing to it. I'm going to forget the quote, but there was a great line in Amy Schumer stand-up where she was basically talking about the younger generation during Me Too, looking around and being like, wait, hold up. So you just dealt with this? Yes. For your your whole lives and you didn't do or say anything? Why? And being like, uh, uh, and so we all understand that conditions change and we can only be as good as we are in the moment, but how are we being in this moment? Are we acting in a way that the next generation is going to be like, why didn't you say more? Why didn't you do more? And Amanda, to your point, like, it's very uncomfortable to be the person that in the moment says the thing. And if you're that kind of person that's able to, be that person.

see that person. I am completely willing to be the person in a situation that makes things a little awkward by saying that's racist, that's misogynist,

that's homophobic, don't say that, that's not okay. Then I am to just sit by and be like, ugh, you know, I'll go talk about this later. But even with that, Sarah,

the making, we all say, oh, I'm going to make it awkward. You're not making it awkward. The person who said it is making it all. Yes. You're the only one who is willing to not pretend

like it isn't awkward. It's awkward for everyone else in that group the moment that asshole says the thing. You know what I always think about? And I use him as an example because I'm obsessed is Andy Murray, the tennis player, is someone that he always speaks in a situation without being prompted by the people in the room with him. And that to me is how when I go into spaces now, if I recognize that there is not a representation of some kind, I try to think to myself, who do I need to be here for? because Andy Murray will be like in a presser

and they'll say, oh, this is the first time anyone's ever and he'll be like, oh, actually Serena Williams has done it. It's the first time a man has done it. It's not a women's conference. It's not a Serena Williams fan club. It's just a regular ass presser where his brain is so attuned to that that he's bringing it into every space he goes in

instead of thinking about it because the people in front of him are like giving him the vibes of like, you should care about representation, intersexual feminism or whatever it is, right? He's just thinking about it. And I feel like in those things, times when you have the opportunity to speak up, there's probably somebody there that needs somebody

to say, don't say that, don't do that, even more than you need it. And so if you aren't going to say it, then they just sit there and suffer. And it's a lot more awkward to feel like, wow, nobody in the room cares that they just said or did that. Nobody is upset by that, just me who's the target of it. Must be because I'm so sensitive. That's what everyone's always telling me. It must be a me thing. Or, or, or, and it's our. Yes, and. Yeah, exactly. It's that.

And it's in being like being a white woman and being inside in girl boss mode and being inside of white feminism and being like, well, my job is to just get higher and higher and higher here. Like, it is more beneficial to me to just say nothing. Because that, that increases my proximity to. That makes me aligned with the old boys club, which will give me more access to power. It's that moment of who, with whom am I aligned? Am I aligned with the people at this table? Or am I aligned with the people not at this table? Well, and that's the tough part because the more successful you get, the more power you have to change things.

Yes. So it's like sometimes the people that are willing to play the game a little better, better, meaning whatever fucking way you need to play it to keep getting raises in power. And then you have to hope that they get there and they go, okay, now I'm going to make everything different. But oftentimes they aren't because to Abby's point, those are the ones who got there and said, this is how you have to do it. This is what works instead of trying to change the system. It's like they're grooming us so that when we get to the table, we're just going to sit there quietly and be their token. Sarah, you said something that mentally shifted things for me.

you were talking about how this is not about people being mean. So you said men get mean comments to. You're talking about your colleagues who are men. Men get mean comments too. But I think the context of it is quite different for women. For them, it's just like, you're an idiot. I'm mad at you for your opinion. For me, it's I hate you because you are in a space that I do not want you in.

I come to sports to get away from women. That is. That is so, no, but it's profound. So profound. It is, this is the whole situation of what, like, I'm not offended by what you say. I'm not even listening to you. I'm offended by your presence. This was a space where I was supposed to be allowed to act, think, and say whatever I wanted,

which is what I'm allowed to do when I'm surrounded only by men, which is why we call what men do inappropriately locker room talk. Why? because there's only men in there. When there's only men in there, you're allowed to say whatever the fuck you want. The only situation that changes it is if there's a woman present.

Suddenly, she's the problem because now I have to modify my behavior. Not my behavior was a problem. It's her presence is a problem because it puts constraints on me. I mean, that's, first of all, there was a study of college men's basketball coaches

and whether or not they would have women on their staff as there became more female coaches across different men's sports. And one of the biggest answers that they gave was that they would have to change their behavior too much if a woman was there. And I'm like, what is your behavior? And if it's problematic, if women are around for it, then you should be changing it anyway. I think my industry in particular, when I started, 12 or 15 years ago, it was much more common for it simply to be, you do not belong here. women shouldn't be here, women shouldn't talk about this, women shouldn't have these jobs. It was literally your presence is the problem.

Not that we don't even know yet if you know what you're talking about, if you're any good at this. It's the fact that you're being here disrupts this for me. And now I will say thankfully, and not for everyone, because again, I have the privilege of now having been in the business long enough that I don't often get the you don't belong. I get whatever else criticism. But there is this feeling of protecting spaces. for men that have always been male dominant. And doing so even in the face of being very clearly shown that the culture is not okay, that the messaging is not okay, that women just ruin it by being there.

And I think we're getting to the underneath of the thing here, which is I just want to understand like what truly. Like what I'm thinking is, why do you hate us so much? That is truly what I want to know. like why do you hate us? Why is your freedom cruelty? Why, when you are in a space without us, does it feel like freedom for you to say and do things that demean and degrade us? Why do you hate us? And that is why in every wave of feminism, people start with small spaces that are men only. Why was it important to go to those rooms and those clubs and say women belong here?

It's because if there's any space that is unsafe for us because you're being there, then we are unsafe everywhere. Right. Because you're allowed anywhere. Yeah. First, I want to tackle that slightly from the devil's advocate position, just out of the curiosity to see where it takes us. But I quickly want to mention, Abby and I are on the Gatorade board together. and the very first meeting we had,

we had a thing that sent us a way to come up with all sorts of reasons why women and girls leave sports and all this other stuff. And what's the biggest factor? Is it money? Is it resources whoever? And we were in separate groups.

We both came back and we presented for our groups and both of us started with everyone hates women. She told me that. We were like, oh, we must have read the same book. The book of life in sport. The book of life and also untamed.

I want to tackle it from the opposite because I do think that what we don't talk about enough is how toxic masculinitys and expectations for men also hurt men. Yes. And so when you introduce women to a space, are men also then forced to change behavior because of what they think is expected of them around women?

So instead of it simply just being that they hate us, which some of them do, or that they've been designed to feel like they're entitled to everything that they have power and value that we don't have. But also, how do they change in that space because they feel like they have to be stronger, bigger, smoother, more in control, because that's what they've always had asked of them, because the narrow expectations for men,

the limited expectations for what is manly and falls under being a man, becomes heightened when a woman is around. Because it's completely subconscious. Because it's not even about the woman. Well, it's performing for each other. Yes. How do we rank up against each other? because evolutionarily, it's like only one of you gets to lead this pack.

There is an inherent sort of performative nature to masculinity that maybe they get to rest a little. Now, it's still there with all the men and playing the football and doing the things, but there's something that's added to that. And that's giving a lot of grace to them. But I feel like it has to be more than just... It's more specific. We hate you. Yeah.

Okay, then I would change it to. Not why do you? hate us, why do you allow the male act to be hatred of women? Because it's not even real. I think it's the basis of men's hatred for women, which they don't even recognize as hatred, they come by it very, very honestly. We have started with a system that says these qualities are honorable, valuable, commendable. These qualities all attach to male names. Right. To courage.

Right. To fortitude. To strength. So these are male qualities. Then we have women qualities, which are compassion, empathy, connectedness. All of these fragility. All of these are shit. Yes.

All of these are shit categories. But it's been, this has been the messaging. That's what keeps the world going. Right. But the messaging from the beginning is these are inferior. The women's qualities are inferior. The men's qualities are... I think we should say masculine and feminine.

Masculine qualities are superior. Feminine qualities are inferior. This has been the messaging from the beginning. This is not debatable. So when I am in the presence of just men, I get to be 100% superior. I get to just use these characteristics. When you come in,

you cannot be in my presence and me be 100% this. I have to bring some, of your inferior qualities to myself when you are in my presence. And therefore, I don't just hate you. I hate me. Whoa. Because in my relation to you, I need to assume some of your inferior qualities. And that makes me hate myself.

And therefore, I project that hate on you because I need to be superior and not inferior. This time of year, I am always. looking for my sweaters. Luckily, Quince has all of the staple sweaters covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. I can't tell you how much I'm loving my quince cashmere sweater in this gorgeous oatmeal color. It's become the thing I grab almost every day. It's held up beautifully. It still feels soft and it honestly looks way more expensive than it is. You know how I am. And I've started picking up a few quince pieces for home too. They have travel bags and

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I've made a lot of it on the internet. And I've received a lot of great feedback. Thoughtful, thoughtful feedback. First of all, let's tackle a couple things. things. Secretly, during a professional golf tournament, live on television with hundreds of cameras. So everyone, let's just get rid of the, it was between two friends. It was not meant for you. It was private. No. It was during a professional sporting event on television. Go absolutely fuck yourself all the people that are like, it's private. This is the way these men make

their dollars. Exactly. They're at work right now. But let's say they were. Doesn't make it any better. the fact that you're telling me all guys do this, I bet your husband does this, I guarantee you, my husband does not make tampon jokes. Stop dragging every single man into your bullshit to try to defend why you act the way that you do. That's right. But here's what I've been at for my literally entire career

is that the little tiny slights and jokes and microaggressions contribute to the society in which we were raised that told us from day one that we're inferior. And if you keep doing them, then a new generation adopts the same ideas. And so whether or not you think that one thing is a big deal, when you add that to a major newspaper in Chicago printing a picture of an athlete with a skirt on, you know, before a big match to say that they're less than our team who's going to beat them, or when you have all your rookies for a team dress up only as girls. And that's the punishment and the criticism and the hazing

for being a rookie is you have to be a woman, which is inherently worse. All of those things add together. And that's how we end up in a society where men are believed to always be smarter, more powerful, more capable, more productive, they get paid more, they get better jobs, they get respect more, they get believed more. I mean, you can take this back to Plato, right? I mean, there's quotes from the brilliant genius that we trust for all of our major life principles that are like, while women are basically inferior and can't be trusted or believed in anything, like, it's been the entirety of our existence that we have been raised with these beliefs. And they stem from the repeated acts every day. And it's the same about racist jokes and misogynist jokes and homophobic jokes,

because ultimately, whether you know it or not subconsciously, you digest these and it affects how you see the other people in the world around you. That's right. And so I know that I'm going to get destroyed when I talk about stuff like the Tiger Woods thing. I know my mentions are going to be full of people telling me to relax or maybe you need a tampon. I got that one a lot. Very clever. But it's worth it to me because then the next time it's just the same as when you're at the office and you're suggesting that people think a little bit more carefully about what they say and what they do. You're hoping that those people the next time think, hey, is this sexist and am I contributing to something bigger?

I mean, the worst part about the tiger thing is that there was a moment for him where he saw the tampon. Where did he see this tampon? He had to pack it. He picked it for nine holes. He literally put it in his bag. It's just so fucking weird. And not original.

How long has that been? And this isn't a fifth grader. This is a man who makes millions and millions of dollars being the face of and the ambassador to us, to our children, of products we're supposed to buy. He has a daughter. And he has a very, very, what's the word I'm looking for? Checkered history with women that he has had to try to move past

in order to regain the love of his fans. and he instantly takes that second, third, fourth chance he's gotten and remind you, I don't have to worry about this. Purposely. He doesn't care. It doesn't matter to him. It really doesn't. It just feels like he apologized.

He said, if I offended anyone. He didn't actually apologize. It was a fun. It's just a very thin line between for me that passing of the tampon to the lists that are circulated. there is a path that goes directly from one to another. When you excuse that and you double down and the legions of people that are out here doing their absolute damnedest to excuse that are the same ones who set the path

for all the other more egregious actions down the road. And they might be the same people. I mean, one of the things that's the worst about the, it's the worst kept secret that that guy's a jerk or it's locker room talk is that those people, if they're willing to do that in public, in person, that guy who told you take your clothes off, what do you think he's doing in private moments with women? What do you think he's doing in spaces that don't have a bunch of people, including HR, standing there? Like spaces where he's not trying to get a job? Exactly. Exactly. And so we laugh those off or we say, oh,

it's not that big of a deal. But those are the very people that later on are doing much worse. And we're sort of allowing it by not being willing to speak up, by not being willing to check them in those moments. And by keeping those well-kept secrets. Stop doing that. I understand it in my business, we do talk about how a lot of us have not reported the people who have harassed us. Because, again, it'll forever be, oh, she's not that Peabody a ward-winning person. She's the one who had this happen to her from this guy that we all know. But I can behind the scenes tell women to be careful around.

him and tell as many people as they can to look out for him. And it would be wonderful if the perception from that was not that, oh, that woman's a troublemaker, but that the person who caused the trouble is the troublemaker. And also, can we just, for a moment, step back and say, there's the binary of the perpetrator and then the victim. But there are always, always, for me standing in that circle, there are people that see. And so why is it my job? I am the one who has to take the offense, and then I am the one who's given the job to do something about it. Yeah. Because it isn't just the offense of like, okay, now I have to humiliate myself by making a joke back to make this asshole comfortable and all the people that are standing with me comfortable.

Now I have to go back to my room and say, huh, I thought I was sent here as an example of the excellence of my firm to recruit excellent people. But now I understand myself as something wildly different. And it's because of the complacency of the people standing around me. Why did not someone standing around me say, listen, jackass, that's not how we talk at this firm. And she is a valued associate. Yeah. So you won't be interviewing tomorrow. That's what Sarah's doing with the reporting what she's seeing to other people so that the person in the situation, But that's what you guys did. That's what you guys did to bring us full circle with the episode that never was.

And I, on it, Glennon, you said this is my favorite one because we're doing it. And it's so true, though, because it's very easy to say these things. And I'm sure I'll look back after this podcast to be like, oh, you know, I made myself sound like someone who always, no, there's been plenty of moments where I afterwards think I should have said or done something differently. I should have not cared about my own reputation or where I sat in that room. instead I should have done something. You get a chance all the time, unfortunately. You're going to get so many more chances. But you guys did show us in the moment that you can do something.

And I think also that if you create the kind of spaces that you want to work in and you protect those spaces, you can set an example for other people on how to do that instead of just thinking that everything has to be done the way it's always been done. And that's why Amanda, like if that person in that space had been willing to speak up for you, it would have not only been better for you, but everybody else there would have been like, oh, I should have probably, I should have probably said something too. I should have just sat here and let that happen. And then maybe they will next time. So good. I just want to tell the pod squad that we had an entire episode planned with Sarah Spain that was like 10 voicemails. No, are you kidding? I think you're just a very special person, Sarah Spain. I'm really grateful that you exist in the world. I think that about you guys. We look to you for so many things and keep going. We are in.

your corner all the time and we can be part of that group that reminds you that you're not crazy. The world is crazy. Thank you. And that I'm a goddamn cheetah. I admire you deeply, Sarah. Thank you for everything that you're doing. I admire you. If you ever getting a low point where you don't have any episodes, we'll just get back to those voicemails. Yeah. Absolutely. Done. I'll be back. I'll be back. We'll do it in a high point. Yeah. High point. There you go. Thank you, Sarah. Bye Pod Squad. You're not crazy. The world is pod squad. And you're not alone. Love you. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or

subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

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