We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 207. PSA: How to Not Be an A-hole

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

Today, Abby, Amanda, and Glennon learn new ways not to be assholes. In this follow up to Episode 191 Why Etiquette is B.S. & New Rules for Living, we share Pod Squad wisdom about ways we can all make the world a less annoying place.  Join us as we learn how to deepen our conversations with people by not saying the first thing we think of, spreading “tell me more” energy instead of “let me tell you about me” energy, and not asking “surface” questions that aren’t surface at all. Plus, we debate holding the door open for strangers, embracing bodily noises in public, and using “but” in apologies.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things Pod Squad. We are super excited for this episode because we had so much fun with the first etiquette episode. We talked all about how to be a person who is not horrifically annoying among other people. And we talked about etiquette in episode 191 as not just a signal of superiority or manners. but a kind way of being among other people. And it went wild. Everybody loved this episode. So we asked you, the Pod Squad, to send us your ideas about how to act and how not to act among people.

And the responses were so good that we decided to create this episode, giving you more ideas about how not to be annoying. inadvertently. If you want to be annoying advertently, you knock yourself out. But if you don't want to inadvertently offend people, here you go. Yeah. I mean, either way, you should listen closely because there are some good ideas in this one if you want to be annoying. Yes. That's true. It's a win-win. Right. It's a win-win this one. And I just want to say again, we are obsessed with you. Like, the things you call in and say, the things you write in and say, always make us laugh, make us think, make us plan a whole new episode. You all are just brilliant. Actually, let's just jump in.

Let's hear from Charity on etiquette, new etiquette, how to treat each other, what not to say, what to say, all the things. Let's hear from Charity. Hi, ladies. I'm just kidding. Matt Ladies. Hi, y'all. I just listened to your etiquette pod.

This is Charity. And I am calling to just agree with your etiquette about telling people they look like other people and I want to kind of double down and let you know some red hair etiquette. I have red hair and there's some etiquette that needs to be established relative to red hair. One, we don't look like every redheaded celebrity. I've been told I look like people like Nicole Kidman. Thank you, but I don't. All the way to like Ed Shearin, thank you, but I don't. Number two, you don't need to touch our hair. You don't need to ask us where our hair came from.

Our hair came from our hair follicles just like yours. And we get really, really tired of answering that question, especially when we're young children. And if you ask a young child that, I have a red-headed son as well. Just don't be surprised if they say something terrible to you because they're so sick and tired of adults asking them the stupid question about where their hair has come from. Wow. Wow. Charity. Charity. Charity is giving very little charity in the way of redheaded comments and I'm here for it. That is good. All right. Here's an idea, y'all. In honor of charity and her long-suffering self and long-suffering red-headed son. What if when we met a new person, we skipped over the first thing we thought of?

Yeah, that's... Bump. Okay, seriously. Like, think about this. Think about if we met a very tall person. Okay? It's no offense to anyone. Of course it is.

The first thing we're going to think is that person is very tall. But what if we didn't say it? Why? Because think about how many times that person throughout their entire tall life has heard, you're so tall or some variation of how's the weather up there? Oh my God, you're so tall. I can build. Oh my God. You make me feel so short. Oh, my God. What about the person with a sunburn? Somebody has a sunburn. Okay? It's pretty bad. You see the person. The first thing you're going to think is that person has a sunburn. But what if you didn't say it? What if you waited for the second thing to? come up, you would probably be within the 2% of human beings that interacts with that other person

because how many times that day has that person heard about their sunburn? Whatever the singular characteristic that you're looking at, red hair, shortness, tallness, even beauty, whatever it is that you're seeing, skip over the first thing, wait for the second thing. What do we think? Okay, but I got a follow up for that. what if it's a really, really tall red-headed sunburn person? Do you have to wait for the fourth thing? I think you do.

You do. Don't say the obvious thing. The obvious thing is what that person has heard their entire life. And you actually think you're being creative. You think you're noticing something. Wow, that person maybe never notice that they have red hair. And maybe no one else has ever noticed it. Well, I just think that overall what we're forgetting is there's impact on what we say,

good and bad, right? and kind of funneling some of these instant thoughts through, nope, not going to do that, to like, oh, gosh, your energy feels so good today or something of the sort, you know, like, anything that's objectifying them, you will not be the first person to do that ever. And this will be the hundred millionth time that they've heard it. And it's just, they're over it. even things that are meant to be super complimentary. I just recently realized that Alice, until her very first haircut, she had down to her waist,

like, people used to ask me if her hair was colored because she had this like, her highlights were ridiculous. They were all natural. Of course, I was like, who the hell colors their five-year-old's hair? But I mean, if you do that, good on you. And she had ringlets of curls, just Shirley Temple ringlets to her waist before her first haircut. And I realized she got so much daily feedback about her curls because every single person came up to her and was like, your curls.

Oh my God, your curls are so beautiful. It's so beautiful. You're so cute. That when she got her haircut and her curls stopped existing, she talks all the time about how much she misses her curls. And it is not because she misses her curls. it's because she very quickly associated, oh, people think I'm special because of my curls. And that no longer exists in my life. So it is a loss that she has experienced already about her value relative to interactions with other people.

And it's all because every single person approaching her said something about her appearance. Whereas if we just made a rule to not say things about people's appearance, then they wouldn't have these ambiguous losses where they understand very quickly what the world is appreciating about them. I had that as a little kid. I was like this. My, as a little child, I was what the world would consider like a beautiful child. I had Alice's ringlets and that's what was people, that's what they see. They look at you. Oh my God, you're so beautiful. You see their face open up. And then you turn 11 and your hair is greasy and you have zits all over your face. And the world starts to like contract away from you instead of move towards you and all the attention stops.

And no one's ever said anything else to you about your insides. So you assume you've lost all of your social capital, I guess. Currency, yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. I think we should do a whole episode or just a separate thing on like what to say to children because as a former teacher, I have ideas. It's like the whole world only knows to say something about their appearance or to ask them what they want to be when they grow up. I swear to God, these poor kids. What do you want to be when you grow up? We say to a four-year-old, knowing damn well, we don't know what we want to be when we grow up.

It's so odd. Yeah, it is odd. Okay, Heather. Let's hear from Heather. Thank you, Charity. Hi, this is Heather. The last podcast when you were talking about etiquette, all I can think about is when, let's say, I have a headache. And I tell somebody, I have a headache. And somebody else says, I've had a headache for like a week. Okay, don't do that. Just say, I hate having headaches. All right. That's it. Thanks.

Bye. Don't want up my headache. My God. It's like Kristen Wig, remember when she played Penelope, an S&L, the what-upper? That Thanksgiving soup kitchen skit where it was like, the lady's like, my ancestors came on the Mayflower. My ancestors came on the April flower. It's just like constantly one-upping. I'm thankful.

I'm think five. You have to watch that one. That one's so good. Yeah, the one-upper thing, we're with you. But it's like our goal is to connect, but what happens is we disconnect. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm with you on that. I know. But it's really like, especially when you're like, I've had one for the last week.

Yeah. Maybe keep the energy to like the tell me more energy instead of the let me tell you about me energy in the moment. Because there's a really weird thing that happens where you're trying to be like, oh, I've been there. I connect with you. Like you're saying, Abby, like if someone's going through a divorce and you're like, I also went through a divorce, it doesn't make you feel less alone because your particular

experience is so ridiculously unique to you. Even if it ends up in five years, you can see the parallels. You can't see in that moment how anyone's experience can possibly relate to the intensity and intimacy of your experience. So like a spotlight that you've asked for a minute becomes like spread and you no longer feel seen. Because now we're looking at you. I used to be a one-upper. I honestly think this was one of like the personality traits of mine that I've been like the most embarrassed about. And I only actually realized it when I got a family and I was one-upping my own children. And Glennon was like,

So first of all, they're kids. Of course you have a different amazing story that you can tell that overshadows their silly fifth grade story. Emma would be like, Daddy's going to take me to look for a new bike. And I'd be like, I have a new car. So I have a new car. I have two cars. I got to go and stock. I have two gold medals.

It was hard for me because it's a habit. Because it's an insecurity and a vulnerability and a moment and a communication moment. It's like, I don't know what to say. This is awkward. And so all I can do is reach into the pile and the storage that I have in my memory of what I can do and how this Venn diagram relates to me. That's what I think communication is, but it's actually discommunication. That's so smart. Do you think that also is like skipping over the obvious thing?

It's almost like we have this knee-jerk reaction of what we're supposed to say. But there's like a moment where we can just go and think a little bit harder. Because when somebody says, I have a headache, if you look at what they're saying underneath it, they wouldn't be. saying that that out loud unless what they were really saying was, I just need to talk about my headache for a second. Right? I'm in pain. I'm in pain. See me. Or understand how I'm in this moment and why I'm reacting this way. They're not like, has anyone here ever experienced the phenomenon of your head being in pain? That's not what they're asking. Under that sentence, they're thinking I need to talk about my headache for a minute. So I think that's awesome that what you just said, like to think

about what's next as opposed to my first, my first connection to that. And it's usually just like this little awkward discontent, this like social anxiety. We all experience where we don't know what to say and we're thinking of the best thing and we get it wrong a lot. And that's okay too. But I think you're right. Like don't say the first thing. Deeper. It's maybe it's not right or wrong. It's just like there's a deeper experience of this conversation. There's a deeper way. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned.

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And we can do hard things listeners can get an exclusive 20% off. I-Exel membership when they sign up today at www. Ixl.com slash we can. Visit Ixel.com slash we can to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Okay, how about Jody? Hi, my name is Jody, and I just listened to your podcast on etiquette B.S. I loved it.

One of my biggest pet peeves as a single, never married, childless by choice, mid-sendiped. 50s woman is the questions over the years about, when are you getting married? Why aren't you married it? Aren't you lonely? And in my mind, the whole time I'm spinning the words, fuck off. It's just don't assume that people are single because, just don't ask. It's none of your business. I am happy in my life and be happy in yours. This poking and prodding, it makes me retreat into myself and not want to go out. Abby, Amanda, Glennon, I love you. Thank you so much.

Keep on, keeping on. Jody. Everything that you just said, Jody, and how you said it. Yes. Thank you for your honesty. That is exactly right. That is exactly right. It's so strange when you think about, like,

the rates of divorce and misery within marriage. we really should be saying when people say they're married, we really should be saying, why did you get married? Tell us more about that. Have you thought that through? Do you think at some point you're going to be lonely? Do you think at some point you're going to regret this decision because you can't go back once you're married? You can't go back.

Or when people say they're married, we should just say, so have you thought about divorce? Like, when are you going to get divorced? When are you going to get divorced? How do you know you're really happy? Yeah. How do you? Yeah. It's a good idea. And also similar to this, it's the people with one child. I hear from them that they're

constantly being asked, why don't you have another one? You're just going to have an only child? Like, do you think that's good for them? It's just, it's wild what we think is our business. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a projection vomit. It's a projection. It's a projection. It's just like all of my fears, I've got to somehow give you an avenue where you won't make mistakes around what. my fears are. And I think one of the beauties of having these conversations is not to be shaming. Like, we could actually make people more comfortable being out and about, make people feel more accepted by having these conversations because people who are saying, are you married, or you have kids, blah, blah, blah. It's not horrible. Like, they're not trying to be,

they're trying to connect and be loving. So no shame. Just like, let's consider that those questions might be doing more harm than good for some people. Do you have kids? Think about all the things that go into that in terms of maybe people who want kids but can't have them or have kids but don't want them or loss or like just it's so loaded. We think it's a surface question and it's not. It's a question which is the deepest recesses of people's hearts and lives and desires. And maybe those questions, the ones we think are surface are actually the conversations

we only go into with the people with whom we've already earned deep trust. Yeah, we think of them as throwaway questions. That's easy. I'm not asking them anything personal. Are you married or not? But that's actually deeply personal. Let's think of some alternatives. If you just met someone, you could say, tell me about yourself.

Mm-hmm. What are you into? Mm-hmm. What makes you happy? What are you going through? Abby always says, how do you spend your days? What's your favorite day? She will say this on like a Zoom call with a person we just met that's a business call.

Like instead of saying, what do you do? What's your work? She'll be like, what's your best day like? What do you like to just spend your time? Yeah. I think that we don't have, yeah, I don't think we have enough like conversation neutral questions. And then I also think something that's really important is we've all done it. We've all breached a line that you can see it on the face of the person that you've crossed the line.

And I think that we don't take care of what transgression we've just made in. instantly because guess what you can save the conversation by saying oh my gosh totally cross a line totally cross the boundary my bad totally not my business and onward you don't make the other person reassure you yeah our kids have taught us that with misgendering so the most open-minded inclusive people have been using genders and assuming genders for a very long time so even if you are wanting to be completely inclusive, you can misgender somebody or use the wrong pronoun. What you don't do, we've learned, is make a big deal out of it so that the other person who's just suffered the misgendering or the wrong pronoun now has to make you feel

better because you're effusively apologizing. So if we use a wrong pronoun or whatever our children have taught us, we say, oops, sorry, fix it and onward. Yep. Continue with this sentence so that they don't have to deal with cleaning up the mess. That's good. Okay. Next question. Let's hear it. Hi. Abby, Glennon and sister, something with etiquette that I think will never go out of style would be holding the door open for someone. To me, that's just bottom line manners and etiquette combined. And I hope that's, that everyone keeps holding that door open for others. You guys are the best. And sister, love you. Oh, she gave me a little special shout out there.

Oh, she's a sister fan. I love it. I have something to say about this. I can't wait to hear it, love. So I'm a door open holder. But what do you do? This is a question to you, too. What do you do when you're stuck?

That happens to me all the time. And your family is now indoors. right? Walking forward ahead and you've got 10 or 15 more people to let you in. Is there an etiquette to just like open it, hold it for a few and then like hold it open as if you're in the door for the next person to take over? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's the baton, the passing of the so where you can kind of like hold it open for the people immediately behind you, then you follow them through the door holding it open and giving a little smile to the person who's next to. line who's going to be holding it open and then doing the same. I don't think you have to be

like trapped there for 10 minutes. And you're like, got it? That does happen. Yeah, got it? Yeah. Got it? Yeah. I feel like the door opening is one of the phenomenon that proves to me over and over again that I am not that good of a person. Okay. Because here's the story of my life. I am a door holder, opener. Okay. I am going to be there. I am like, this is my moment. I'm shining. Yeah, it's like not too hard. It's like not, because I don't want to do hard. Abby wants to save the lives of everyone who's walking by.

She wants to stop all day. Strong ROI. Do CPR. Do people's oil. She's like superwoman. I want to hold a door. That's like the limit. And they feel good about yourself for the rest of the day.

That's the limit. I want to return my grocery cart and I want to hold the door. And honestly, not too long. Okay. You want to hold the door for one patron. Yeah, most. That's good. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm a good person, so I'm going to hold this door. Then the person does not say thank you. Oh, that is a, mm-mm.

But what I want you to understand is that I go from Good Samaritan to Homicidal Hate in like two seconds, which is proof to me. It's just a little glen experiment to myself. Just a little. I am not doing it to be nice, clearly. Because I wish that person not well when they don't say thank you. I do not wish that person well. I do not think, well, you know, I did the right thing to each her own. I think to you horrible things.

And sometimes I will say, you're welcome. And start a confrontation. Start a confrontation. You've seen this, right, babe? It's embarrassing. Yeah. It's actually embarrassing. I agree.

You're trying to do a good thing. Like, good Samaritan, by its definition, is to not require something in return. So what you're doing is you're creating an environment where this is a give and take. Yeah. Oh, exactly. I'm only doing it to get thanked. So, and the person didn't ask for it either. So it's kind of like I walk up to a person.

Yes. It's like I walk up to a person on the street. I hand them a gift that they didn't ask for. And then they look at me confusedly and then I punched them in the face. You know, I think what's happening here, Glennon, is that the kryptonite for us is a sense of entitlement. Okay. And so when someone walks through the door that we've held open, which we are very clearly counting the cost to, you know. Yeah.

Then it's like, oh, you think I was just born to open this door for you? You think the whole world should just be opening doors for you? You think I don't have anything better to do? Yes. I could be looking at my phone right now, but I'm open this door for you. Yes. It's like that sensibility because we're very hyper-rigilant and aware. So we would notice every single thing.

Noticing. So that feels like they have done the calculus and they have decided, you know what, I'm walking through the store, I see her opening it, and I am electing to withhold my gratitude. That's right? And they're likely not, right? They likely just missed it. Very likely not. They likely just missed it. Well, also, they didn't ask for it. They didn't ask for it. You're taking a chance, but requiring a response. It's ridiculous. I'm with you. I totally understand. I mean, I am trying to to unleash vigilante door holding justice all day. And, and I, and I, It's not good.

That's what I'm saying. Can you just not hold the door open for people? Probably not. I'm not going to change. I think I'll just keep doing it this way. It's a nice little reminder of connectedness with the world when we hold doors open and people hold doors open for us. I'm always like, oh my God, thank you. We're in this together.

Someone just handed me a homemade pie or something. Yeah. The amount that I sprint towards somebody who's opening and holding a door for me, I'm like, I'm coming. I'm coming. I'm coming. I know. And then the people who you're holding the door and they just saunter, they saunter. They walk so slow. That's like when you stop and the road to let someone pass and then they walk

leisurely across the street. You want to hit them. And I want to run them over with my car. Same as the door thing. It's not, it's not nice. But once in a while, the universe just provides the correct shaming for me. So what will happen is I hold the door. The person walks through. They don't turn around and say thank you. I say, you're welcome or whatever. And then the person turns around and says, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I didn't see. And then I'm like, yeah. It's horrific.

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Okay, so me and my partner have this constant disagreement. I burp very loudly. I am a loud burper. I often do not know when they're coming, and by the time they're here, it's too late for me to stop. My partner thinks this is bullshit. He thinks that I know it's coming, and I can stop it. He also thinks it's extremely rude to burp out loud in public or in gatherings. I think it's normal and I do not feel shamed about this.

I actually kind of like this part of myself and think it's funny. But when I do burp in front of our friend, I get a look of horror from my partner. So I just want to know who is right. Can I keep burping loudly and embrace it or is this rude and nasty? Thanks. Love to hear your guys' opinion. Love you all. Bye. I can't wait to get into this. I just, I just have such respect for Elena. I know. What a badass.

Oh my God. I don't, Elena is from a different planet than I'm from, and I like that planet. Mm-hmm. No, you don't. I do. I have crazy respect for this. You have respect for it, but you don't live it. No, I don't live it. That's why I just said I'm from a different planet. I'm from a different planet. I think Elena might be from China or Taiwan. Because in those countries, burping in the context of a meal is the highest form of flattery.

Because it means like, look, this was delicious. I'm having a gastronomical reaction. That's amazing. The gastronomical reaction is so interesting. What's happening in our family? Our daughter, if Abby's eating and she's making enjoyable noises to the food, like, mm. Our daughter cannot stand it. She thinks it's gross.

She thinks it's like sexual sounding. Well, it is sensual. She's having a sensual experience. That's where that comes from. She's like, I think she's like me. But she's like, can you just say this is good? Can you use your brain instead of your body? Because bodies are disgusting.

It's unreal. I mean, I just have to say, first of all, Elena, I love your lack of shame around this. and I think it's important. And I do think that there's a part of you. It might be small, but I do think there's a part of you that likes the fact that this bothers your partner. Truly. Oh, that's interesting. Do you like the fact that the bodily noises bother me?

Honey, I don't make bodily voices because they bother you. I don't fart in front of you. Thuring threat of bodily noises bothers you. This has never actually been a bodily noise. I apologize for sneezing. Okay. I'm like, I'm so sorry. Well, that's because it scares me so much.

Here we go. And then when I burp, I'm like, oh. Everything's quiet. And then it's so loud. And everyone in my family like drops to the ground. I want to give the Pod Squad. And I'm just doing this in the moment. But I would like to give the Pod Squad the gift in honor of Elena.

I want you to tell the story, Mary Abigail. of what happened in our home three nights ago. Okay, so I was brushing my teeth and, you know, we pee with the door open. No big deal. And we have the unwritten rule in our marriage that we don't do farting in front of each other. Because of me, because I'm ashamed of fart and I don't fart and. Bullshit. You don't fart.

That's the, that's what you're going with Doyle. Listen to the story. Doyle, unlike the rest of y'all, doesn't fart. Listen to the story. So there she is on the toilet, going potty, and I'm brushing my teeth and we're chit-chatting about something. Looking at each other in each other's eyes. She's brushing her teeth, looking at me pee on the toilet.

And she lets a fart out accidentally. It's an accidental fart because he should have seen her face. Like, there was so much happen. And it was like a big one. It was like a pod squad. It's my favorite moment ever. I was looking into my wife's eyes, peeing and farting. And did you give her a wink?

And I couldn't stop, but we couldn't unlock eyes. Yeah. And there was this moment where you thought, did she hear that? Yeah. Did she do that? I could see if she was going to try to wiggle out of it. That alternate reality you live in when you do something like that where you're like, there was a scenario in which the person didn't hear that or like didn't smell that.

Well, let's just stay the course. Let's just stay the course. And I just started screaming. No. She goes, no. No. And then she wiped from her pee and stood up and ran away. No, nothing.

We're never talking about that again. No, nothing happened. And I was like, oh my God. For real, is that the first time that you have farted in front of her? Well, she farts in her sleep all the time. You know what? We're going, we're going rogue. Stop it.

I only offered permission for this small slice of story. Well, I do think Elena's question is a very good one because we're experiencing this in my family right now, which is that my daughter is a tooting machine. Okay. She farts more than anyone I've ever been. And she has no shame about it. And so she'll fart at the dinner table, just walking around in front of friends, in her classroom. Wow. And I don't know how to, like, I don't want to set her up for like a disaster of a situation, but I also don't want to like breed in her that there's something shameful when it's her body's natural thing.

Yeah, you don't want her to end up like me. I think that. Exactly. It's the last damn thing I want to. Here's what I've learned over the last seven years because I used to be just like Alice. And now having had some time to think about that life, I realize there's some error in that way. It's like considering what you say to somebody else, it's like you have to consider the impact. And nobody wants to smell somebody else's fart.

Right. And so for me, what I do is I go on a little bit of a walk after dinner. I'll walk down to our bedroom and I will fart on my own, in my own time, in my own way. And then I walk back upstairs because I realize that it is upsetting. when other people produce horrible smell. Yeah. Around me. I don't like that.

That's not fair to the community space. So like maybe explain that to her. And then also giving her an option of what to do instead of just by the grace of your butthole, just let loose whenever it's ready. Like you can actually hold your farts in and hold the gas in and go find a different, better place to do it. Well, okay, that's good. For Elena, all I want to say to Elena is,

I don't have any advice for you. I just think you're really cool that despite the opposition and resistance to your burping, you not only continue it, but you maintain that you have a right. And in fact, you said, I really like this about myself. And what I like about you, Alina, is that you are not a conformist. Exactly. And you are in touch with your body and you're like, my body does this and it's going to do it. So what I think is that you've already decided for yourself.

that you're okay with your partner, not loving every single thing that you do and still trusting that they love you. And I think it's cool. I think Elena is a bit of a revolution. I know. I like Elena. There's something there. I also like their partner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's go to Dara. Hi. My name is Dara. I would like good manners to include that you cannot follow I'm sorry with the word but. That's right. Because I'm sorry but means you're about to tell me either why I shouldn't be upset or why it was actually my fault. I'm sorry is a complete sentence, period. And it means I really wish that I hadn't done that and I'm going to try as hard as I can

to never do it again. And if you can't say both of those things, then don't tell me you're sorry. If you are going to say sorry, it has to mean something. And if it doesn't, then just don't say it. And that's okay. Maybe we need a boundary. Maybe we need to move on with our lives separately. That's fine. But mean it if you're going to say it.

That's good. It's a good one. Why are you shaking like you're so excited about this one? Because it takes you like three tries to get your. apology, correct? Yeah. Because I can actually see that you're not sorry. Right.

That's the thing. You want the transgression to be done over with. I'm so sorry. And I'm like, you just want this to be over rather than getting in touch with how much it hurt me. Yeah. It's a vulnerability issue. It's vulnerability. Because I'm actually really good at it with everyone except for you and sister.

Why the fuck is that? It's only the people that I love the most that I cannot handle it. I don't know. Because you're trying to explain yourself, because you need to be understood from the place you're coming from. Because when you really hurt people that you love, you want to express how thoughtful you were in your interaction and why the intention from which it was coming was to try to get closer or was to try to be understood to begin with. So you don't want to say as if all of it was a mistake. you're trying to explain where you were trying to go when you went awry. Yeah.

And so I think that that's where the intention comes from. But I really like this, like, if you can't say, I really wish I hadn't done that and I'm going to try as hard as I can to never do it again, then maybe that's not, I'm sorry. Because there's some things that I do that are hurtful to people. and I'm actually not going to try to not do it again. Yeah. Because I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

What that means is I have sorrow. I have sorrow about having hurt you. And I think what happens when we do the butt thing is that we haven't gotten to the point or we actually feel sorrow for the thing. So maybe unless we get to the point where we actually feel sorrow in ourselves because we see how that thing hurt someone, it's something else. It's not, I'm sorry. Maybe it's in need for further discussion. Like, I could see a world in which I would, if I still don't understand, because I think it partly comes from that. You know you've hurt someone, but you don't understand the disconnect between where you're, you're going to be a problem. You know, but you don't understand the disconnect between where you're, you were coming from and where the other person's sadness or offense bumped up with that. And so part of it for me is like sometimes the other person's offense and upset can become so big that it totally eclipses where you were coming from, which might be a legitimate place to begin with.

So maybe it starts with it makes me so deeply sad that I have upset you so much. I can see how upset you are. The last thing I ever want to do is upset you. Can we please sit down and talk about how we got here? And then you can say what my intention was was this. I see that my impact was this. And it's different, it's just a different way than saying, I'm sorry. Because what does I'm sorry mean if you don't actually understand what happened? Yes. But I think right before this moment, because I can speak for myself here and when Glennon's trying to apologize. There is a lack of belief, so it seems, that I am entitled to my sorrow because there is a lack of acceptance and accountability for whatever transgression has happened.

So I think that there is a little disconnect. And I believe that you're right, sister, there is like this conversation that can happen in between the I'm sorry and also the like who's right or wrong with it. but I do think that in a lot of relationships, it's the person who is unwilling to accept any kind of responsibility or accountability for the thing. Because I think half the time, you don't think you've done anything wrong. I think that one of my many tragic flaws is desperately seeking to be understood. And so I think that it leads to some good things in my life and it leads to some major bad things because I think in those moments I'm thinking she just doesn't understand

what I was doing then. If only I could explain it better what I was doing, I would magically evaporate all of this hurt because I would never. Because she'd be like, oh wait, that's what you were doing? Cool then. That's what I actually think is going to happen every time, even though that's never happened. Not one time. I always think if I just explain it better. No, but it's not just smartness. It's because at my core with you and sister, with lots of people, I'm like, I fucked up. But with you too, I'm like, no, if they knew like where it was coming from, because I love them so much, because I, blah, blah, blah. So it's just a lack of explanation, which then is so minimizing to you all because I like really probably am scared to death to be like,

oh my God, I actually fucked up because then I'm like, I'm a bad person. That's right. That's where you go to. But I think it's a deeper level than that. I think you're terrified. in your deepest relationships that the other person doesn't understand to you. It's like, wait, we have this huge gulf where you're over here

feeling sad about what happened to you. So that means that you're completely missing everything that's happening to me over here. So we're supposed to make it magically erased by me saying, I'm sorry. But then I still have this whole gulf that is not understood and is never going to be addressed.

because that's what got us here to begin with. Yes. It's like what Dr. Orna Goralnik said. Managing otherness is what is probably one of the biggest disconnects. And I do have a commitment to like only saying the truth. And when I'm like trying to apologize and I don't feel super sorry, it looks ridiculous. I can't do it and it looks disrespectful. and it looks like what it is, which is not real.

It feels like out of integrity, like a little patronizing. Like, oh, here's the part where I pretend to be sorry about this horseshit that I'm not really sorry about. I feel that way sometimes. And that's why I think what Dara is saying is like, that's cool. Then don't use the words I'm sorry and then follow it up with all the reasons you're not sorry. Exactly.

Just say something different then. Yeah, I'm with you, Dara. It could be as simple as like, we need to sit down. down and, like, gain an understanding of where each other is coming from because you're so upset and I never want to make you upset. And I don't understand how we got here. Well, that is something that I say, but we get to the point and I say, okay, I just, I just need to think about this. And that's what I really mean. I got to figure out how we got to this place. What did I say? What did I do wrong? I just have to think about it. But Abby's like, why do you have to think about it? Like, my feelings are

hurt. Like, just be sorry. And that's a control. thing though for you. You don't have to think about it so you can make sense of it. So you can come back to her and explain it to her so that it makes sense to her. You just have to sit down and be like, I'm baffled. Help me understand where you're coming from. And if you're willing to hear me out, I'll tell you where I'm coming from. But like you don't go away and figure it out and then come back and inform Abby of what happened. That's right. It's also like a vulnerability. I think at the end of it, like that's what you're afraid of is to be like, oh no, I'm, I did something that. I did something that. made you feel a certain way that wasn't ideal.

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Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? visit join midi.com today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's join midi.com. Midi, the care women deserve. Okay, let's go to Ray. Hi, this is Ray. I'm just calling with another etiquette idea. And it's whoever has the middle seat on the airplane gets the arm rest.

I'm not sure why this isn't more. widely accepted, but it should be. Thank you. What are all of your top plain things? Or just everybody give us a plain etiquette role. So if any kind of device is being activated, you must have headphones. Yes. Yes. And as someone who's obsessed with children, love the children, always love children first, even if it's a child. Especially if it's a child. Do not have your child. Because the shit they listen to is intolerable. Do not have your child watching the iPad on SpongeBob SquarePants or whatever it is these days. It's inexcusable.

Yeah, you need the headphones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are circumstances because, you know, if you've got two armrests, most people don't necessarily sit with two arms on the whole of the armrests. They are just using them for their elbows. And so you can actually ask the person like, can I pop up here if need be? but I agree. The middle seat does get access to both armrests.

Yeah, and also, and our dear friend Chelsea Handler has dedicated most of her life to raising the awareness of this PSA, which is just pleased, let's not do no socks and no shoes on planes. Is Elena allowed to burp on the plane or no? Only Elena. Elena's allowed to do it. Only Elena. Also, I think the baggage claim would work better. For example, if we didn't all, we don't actually have to be in contact with the perimeter of the baggage claim to claim our bags. In fact, if we all just took a little step back and then approach the baggage claim when our bag was present, then we wouldn't have to all be elbowing the shit out of each other to see our bags.

We could do that. Just hang back a little bit. Those bags aren't going anywhere without you. Let's end with Michelle. Hi, my name is Michelle. So I was listening to the etiquette podcast and I had a huge, huge fatigue. My youngest daughter has Down syndrome. And when I tell people or introduce the fact that she has Down syndrome,

people have the audacity to say, oh, I'm sorry, like there's something wrong with her. Like she has cancer or something. She doesn't. She has an extra chromosome. And it's fucking amazing. And there's absolutely nothing to be sorry about. It is the hardest, most amazing thing I have ever done as a person. My other sweet kids are typical.

They have the typical amount of chromosomes. She does not. She has an extra one. And there's absolutely nothing to be sorry about. And that's all I have to say about that. Thank you. You guys are amazing. Bye.

I don't think there needs to be anything said about that. I think that's all there is to say about that. Damn right, Michelle. We love all of you. I think we should do this every once in a while. I also want to ask the Pod Squad because of the treasure trove of etiquette tips. I want to do an episode soon about the best advice and the worst advice we've ever received or heard conventional advice that's out there.

We're going to do that soon. And we want to hear from you, Pod Squad, what is the best advice and what is the worst advice and what is the worst advice you've ever received? Call us at 747-200-5307 or email us at whatever our email addresses. Hold on. You all are the absolute best. It's W-C-D-H-T at Pod. Nope, nope, it's not that.

It's capital. No, it doesn't need to be capital. Okay. It's capital or lowercase. W-C-D-H-T-Pod at gmail.com. You did it. I did it. I nailed it.

Okay. So email us or call us and don't forget, y'all. We love the 20-minute voicemails and especially the ones where you talk and then hang up and then call us back and then keep talking and then hang out and call us back. But if you want us to use it, just try to smush it a little bit, okay? A lot bit. One minute or so or shorter. Okay. We love you, Pod Squad.

Let's all be kind and brave humans, among other kind and brave humans this week. And we will see you back here next time. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode.

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