We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 21. On Cussing, “Cattiness” & What Feminism Means to G

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

1. Glennon lets f-ing loose about the misogyny in our cursing lexicon—and how it reveals our hidden conditioning. (Note: Don’t listen with the kiddos.) 2. The connection between how little girls are taught to avoid conflict with each other and how adult women are called “catty.”  3. What Glennon really means when she says she’s a feminist—and why she’s baffled when a group fighting for their own equality turns on another group fighting for theirs. 4. Why Glennon says that the teenage years may be her favorite parenting era yet.

And we're back. And you're back. Every time. Every time. I just get so amazed and excited that you came back. Thank you. We keep throwing this party and there keeps being guests. And it's just my favorite kind of party because no one's really here at my home. It's just, it's perfection in every way. This is episode, you know, two of the week. We can do hard things. So of course, this is that we can do easy things episode. We're just taking it easy, breezy, as we always do, right? Amanda and Abby. Yeah, that's totally your MO. Easy and breezy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Light. Okay. So what's up this week? I woke up this morning feeling very content because we actually have a house full of children right now, teenagers. So our oldest has a couple friends staying with us for a week. And so, They were at our house, and then our middle had two friends sleeping over last night. And the younger one also did. So we had this house full of teenagers.

And I remember sitting on the couch last night, we were playing some scattergories game or something, charades of some sort. And thinking, oh my gosh, I was so afraid of having teenagers because the world scares the crap out of you about how much they're going to suck. But actually, I think that the teenage years. while there's been plenty of drama and trauma is my vibe. I think it's my favorite parenting slice. You're good at it. You're good at it. You really are.

Thanks. I mean, you know why I think I'm good at it? I remember a long time ago reading this New York Times article by this brilliant person who said that what teenagers need is just a potted plant parent, which basically means that once the teenage years come around, your job is to behave in all ways like a potted plant in the corner. Like you're there. Okay, they need you.

They think they don't need you, but they need you more than ever. But they need you in a very different way than that they need you when they're young, which is they just need you to be there and quiet and not just inert and maybe hydrating, but that's it. Offering nothing until they call on you. So, to be fair, though, sweetheart, there's a lot of stuff that happens that, requires feeding said teenage children that requires your wife, Abby. That requires me.

Well, every potted plant needs a wife and I got myself on. But I just have this don't, I mean, sister, you and I have talked about this theory where like we're expected to just like love parenting. But that's ridiculous. Like parenting is too wide of an experience, right? It's like actually most of the people that I know. they have one time in parenting that they really vived with. Like they either loved being pregnant.

And then once the kid was born, they're like, oh, the good part's over. They love babies or toddlers or preschool. You know, but it's like everybody matches one. Have you found yours yet?

I'm holding out. Mine's just around the corner. I can feel it coming. It's just any minute. it now. No, I remember my mother-in-law is like that. She's also an older kid one. That is her preference. And I remember her saying, I mean, if I would have known what the top, she has five kids, by the way, one of whom is my husband and he is the fourth. And she said, I definitely would have only had two. Like, oh my gosh. That's a thing. So I'm saying it's very, I think that the, the niche. I

feel like saying I like parenting or the expectation you like all of it is being like, I like life. Yeah. No one likes all of life. It's just a very, it's all. So I feel like there's a, there's going to be a period upcoming. I'm kind of liking right now. Bobby's nine.

And I feel like it's like he's his own little person. He goes and does things, but he still wants to play with me doing things sometimes. Like he's still interested. He's still cuddly. It's like this very sweet spot. but he's not like, he still wants me around to slice, but not like a lot. Yeah. Yeah, that's good stuff.

So I can show up really well in small slices. And that's, it's my maximum level of performance as small slices. I think God must have known my personality because I think for a long time I thought that I wanted to have a baby of my own. But I actually think that God must have known that that wasn't going to be good for me. that I think that the formed person, you know, 8 to 13, 8 to 18 now, 13 to 18 now is the kind of my jam. Like I can have having the conversations, like not dealing with poopy diapers. Like I really think that I got the best of all of the worlds. And I'm sorry that you all had to stay up so late with breastfeedings and late nights and stuff.

Although I am, you are getting payback now, babe. I do all late night driving. Listen, every time the kids have to be out till 11, which is a terrible thing about teenagers that they freaking make. Every time I begin to feel guilty about allowing you to do the night shift, I think back on all of the midnight feedings and how you just geniusly missed them and arranged to this so beautifully. and I do not feel guilty any longer. Okay. I loved so much our conversation about gender. And we decided that there were so many beautiful questions from our incredible pod squad that we saved them all for today.

And we're going to get to as many of them as we can. So let's jump in. Let's hear our first question about gender. Actually, is our first question a write in? It is. It is. You ready? Uh-huh. Ready. Okay. Here's the first question. Hi, G. What do you say about this? I am a woman who is much more comfortable with men. Most of my friends are men because I find women to be so competitive and catty that I just can't take it. Thoughts?

My first thought when I hear this question, which I hear quite often in many different iterations, is that I want to call 911. I want to call like gender triage. I want to just like, circle up all of the most wonderful women I know and ship them to this person and just bring her back to life because I just I can see what the world has done to her. And I understand it. I've seen some of that in my life. It makes sense, but it makes me sad because what I do know is the most important, beautiful parts of my life are relationships with women. So, I mean, let's say this. First of all, I cannot say to you, although it makes me, you know, sweat and shake a little bit to hear people make generalizations about women like women are catty and competitive. Okay. I do want to resist the feminist urge to just say that is bullshit. Okay? Because there is, I understand what she is saying. Okay. Misogyny can. manifest itself with women feeling like we have to be competitive with each other. And what I would say is that that's not inborn in women. It's not like we're born competitive with each other and

catty with each other. Okay. If we are competitive with each other or more competitive than, say, men are, that is because we've been born into a world in which at every table there are 12 seats and 10 of them are for men. Okay? and two of them are for women. And so since life for us on this earth tends to be one terrifying scarce game of musical chairs, we do tend to have to be competitive with each other for those two seats. Why are men more relaxed with each other? Because they just can be.

Because there's more space for them in the world. Because they're not tokenized like women are. They're not pitted up against each other like women are. So scarcity is placed in front of us as a reality. and we react to that in a very appropriate way by feeling like we have to be competitive with each other because, in fact, we do. All right? The catiness thing always gets me. And I, okay, here's my theory.

I could be wrong, but not likely. Okay. As I always bring up, I was a teacher. Okay, I was an elementary school teacher. Thank God for many reasons. one of the reasons I got to see up close how we train little girls and boys in this world. I get to see it happen in real time in front of me. And what I want to try to describe to you right now is this scenario.

Every time a little boy had an issue with another little boy, that little boy would be told to deal with the other little boy in an honest, straightforward way that they could work it out. Okay. The little girls, when they had problems with each other, everybody, every adult would lose their shit. The parents, the teachers, don't say, don't be, be nice, be nice, right? Like, a little girl would say, Tammy doesn't like me. Why doesn't Tammy like you?

Like, we can fix this. Everything was based on feelings. Girls over and over again were taught to swallow their own feelings to make the other person comfortable. right to not rock the boat to not cause any outer conflict to be nice okay so little girls are not taught to deal directly with each other all right we are we are trained to swallow conflict to swallow when people bother us to swallow when we don't like people god forbid we don't like somebody else to act like we like them but the truth always comes out sideways if you can't say it directly, it comes out sideways. So here's the gossip. Here's the caddiness. Here's the whatever.

What I do believe is that women would stab each other in the back less if when we were young, we were allowed to stab each other in the front. That's really good. Right? That's what men are allowed to do. They're allowed to say the thing, do the thing, work through it, be direct and get through. But women are terrified of doing that because the world has taught us to be terrified of doing that. So I would love us to be able to be more direct with each other. But that's something that we're going to have to decondition ourselves from because the world has trained us not. Babe, I have to tell you something that you, I don't know if you know this actually. But I venture to guess that there's a lot of women listening to this that fancy themselves a guy's girl, right?

And I think that that's, before I met you, I think that that's who I was. I think I was somebody that secretly, because I got this male acceptance and I got to the seats at the male tables, I was also a part of the problem that, you know, men would talk poorly about women around me and I would like let that happen. Men would, I was like one of the guys. You know what I mean? And I think that we have to examine those kind of relationships that we have and why we have them. Because if it weren't for you to have pointed these things out to me to be like, whoa, why am I doing that? Like I am a feminist. I'm like out in the world trying to help women secure more rights. But here I am inside of my own body actually believing that maybe women are just competitive, too competitive and catty. because I've been sitting at the tables where that's what the, that was the information I was getting, right? So just examine the relationships you have. This show is sponsored by Midi Health.

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completely hierarchical like that like it is not it is not you are either or it is one is better and one is not as good so so when you are saying you're a guy i mean that is actually the gender binary wasn't a binary at first like there there wasn't a gender binary until the 18th century Before that, many doctors just dictated that there was one biological sex, okay? It was male. Women were inferior to men in that they had not properly developed. Their penises were tucked inside of their bodies. Legit, this is for real.

Oh, my gosh. So there was one ideal sex that was male, and then there was not male, not male, okay? Just like there was one ideal race and that was white and everything else was not white. Okay. So, so, so what people are saying, I mean, the whole idea of a binary started in the Industrial Revolution where the separate spheres and we had to say that women were domestic so that they would be in charge of what's at home while men went to work, okay? But it was not at all and value assessments were placed on that because when we started to say all men are created equal, we inherently needed to say that women were unequal so that they would be denied and

place biological and characteristics on them as inherent so there would be a reason why they would not be allowed to have this equality. So anyway, what I'm saying is that like inherent in that is saying I am as good as. I do not, I am a guy's girl. I do not lack the deficits. that are associated with other women. I, Abby, can hang with the dudes because I'm not sensitive. I am not whatever male is defined as, female is defined as the opposite of that. It is not looked at.

It is said male is superior and strong and powerful. Therefore, women is the opposite of that. So saying that, there is, I guess, some truth and experience of that for some people, it has not been my experience, the competitive and cattyness has not been my experience. But what I'm saying is people are saying, I can hang at this table. I am not like the average woman because I have swallowed the conditioning that makes me believe that the average woman lacks what the guys have. Wow. And that is that on that. Thank you. Retweet. Like drop. I love this right in because I'm just obsessed with Bellowed.

AdWords, a general. But my favorite right in which we got several times was, can we discuss the gendering of profanity? And to that question, I say, fuck yes, we can discuss the gendering of profanity. Okay. Language. Obsessed with it. Okay, obviously for many reasons. But within this context, because language reveals all of our conditioning, what we say, just, reveals what we believe, right, and who we are. Okay. And so here's my issue with gendered insults, is that they all have power attached to them, right? So I had this conversation with a dude recently, and he called somebody a pussy. And then he was saying, I challenged him on it. And he said, okay, how come I can, I can't say pussy, but you all can call each other dicks. Or you can call men dicks.

Okay. Because you're so frequently just calling people dicks all the time. Yeah, I'm like, when did I call even a dick? Like, I don't think that I do that, but okay. Whatever. The point, what I was, what I tried to get at with this dude. When I tried to get out with this dickhead was dick. All right.

Here's what I want to discuss. The word dick, okay? When we call someone a dick, we are usually referring to someone who is like overconfident. He's, he's, he's just wildly entitled. He's just full of himself. He has too much power. He, or he has, he thinks he has more power than he really does. He's just oozing with entitlement.

So we don't, we don't call people who are expressing weakness, who are showing weakness, dicks or pricks, right? Dicks and pricks are folks who feel over empowered. Pussies. On the other hand. Pussies. We call people pussies when they are weak, okay? When they are just crumbling with weakness, when they're showing vulnerability. We don't call someone who's over, who's feeling drunk with power, a pussy, okay?

Pussies are weak. All insults attached to women's genitalia are weak, right? A pussy is someone who is weak, which means vagina. As a weak, okay? A dick is someone who's strong, which means that we believe penises are strong, okay? And also, furthermore, on this topic, can we discuss the fact that most of the insults, the gendered insults we hurl at men are actually insults to women? Okay, son of a bitch. I'm going to and call you a son of a bitch, which really all I called you was a son.

I'm really out of nowhere insulting your poor mother somewhere. Right? She's not even here. She's a bitch. Your mom's a bitch. Okay. That's what we're saying when we call someone who sent up. Motherfucker.

I'm just going to start saying going up to people. Your mother's a bitch. You might as well. Motherfucker. Okay. Motherfucker. Okay. So how is that an insult to a man?

All right? They call each other motherfuckers. Fucker, by the way, is someone who fuck. So that's a solid, like a compliment. The only one who's being insulted there is mothers everywhere. You are so terrible that you fuck mothers. Okay? Oh my God.

I'm sweating so much. I cannot believe our children are going to listen to this. This is so good. Well, I hope to God they'll think about their gendered insults after this conversation. Dushbag. Dushbag. Okay. You are so disgusting that what I am labeling you as is a thing that some women used to clean their body.

Which, by the way, is disgusting because your body is already a self-cleaning instrument. You don't need any of that. The layers. It's misogyny inception. The layers. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm saying is even when women are minding their own goddamn. on business. We're not even there. The dudes are insulting each other. Okay? We're being insulted. Right? I just... Oh, and by the way, when I show up somewhere and do something awesome and

brave, guess what people call me? Balsy. They're saying to me, they are looking at me and they are saying, you are so brave, you are almost like a guy. Yes. That's right. I'm not showing up like a guy. I'm showing up like a brave woman, but you're finding a way to even erase my womanhood in this moment, right? You are so strong. It's almost like you're a dude, you freaking douchebag, right? So if a woman shows up bravely, she's a man. If a man shows up weekly, he's a woman. It's just. And you know what pussy comes from? It's from the word pusillanimous, which was a word that was just a descriptor for women. It literally was just what women were described as. Okay. So, so then it evolved, but it, it, it does mean woman. So there's that. Oh my God. Woman? You know what? Oh, and it means cowardly.

It means cowardly, by the way. That word means cowardly. And then the, the, the, the whole female genitalia, the, the Latin word for that is shame. Okay. Shame. One. Pudenda. Shame. Okay, so you are cowardly and shameful. And I'm just talking about your genitalia. Okay. Good God on earth. Okay. And I don't know what we do, by the way, because I love a good insult. Well, anyway, I had some feelings about gender. Just a few. Just a few. We can. We can. I love. Reminder to put the little E on this episode. Also, how cathartic is it to say so many cuss words. Oh, my God. I love it so fucking much. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? Not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking, I can't keep doing it like this. You're not alone. Strawberry.me is career coaching that helps you get to the real root of your burnout,

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This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed in-network therapists without all the run around. You can browse without even making an account and you can filter for what actually

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that is a new thought for me. And so it might not come out perfectly, but I'm just going to do my best and just ask everyone to be full of grace. Okay. So here's what I've come to understand about what I mean when I say I am a feminist. And I'm sorry if it pisses people off. I'm not at all sorry. Are you? Okay. I'm not. I'm just, I'm a woman, so I have to say I'm sorry. When I say I am a feminist, I actually don't think that I mean that I am on the side of women. Ooh, that's going to be a best. Somebody's going to pull that and just run with it. I know, I know, but let me just say more things.

Okay. I think I, what I mean, like the truthiest truth I'm trying to get at when I say I'm a feminist is that I am on the side of whoever is getting. most royally screwed at the moment by power. Okay? So what I mean is if I went into a culture where women had been oppressing and marginalizing men for millennia, I would be a masculist or whatever the other one is. Okay. I have come to this kind of deconstructing of what I mean by feminist recently with the phenomenon that I don't align with and that I don't understand which is this idea of a turf feminist.

A trans exclusionary radical feminist, okay? So, J.K. Rowling. Oh, okay. So that's the acronym that I got it. Right. So I'm sure you'll know who they are in a hot minute after we record this because they'll all be on our social. Come for us. I don't care.

Actually, please don't. I do not understand why a group who has spent so long fighting for equality would then turn to another group. who is fighting for equality and not wide open arms them to the movement. I don't understand the hypocrisy, the irony, the arrogance, the arrogance, right? I, you and I have talked about this at length, sister, and you have some amazing thoughts about this. Well, I mean, it's that it, correct. I mean, the people who should be the biggest champions and empathize most radical feminists with transgender women should be the biggest champions. But it's also, it is also the history of white feminism.

I mean, that, that hypocrisy and that lack of alignment with marginalized groups is all the way through the history. So basically, like, where there is a, where white women's status is perceived as threatened by the liberation of any other marginalized group, feminism as a movement has historically always not only cast them aside, but actively, as the turfs are doing with the transgender woman, actively lobbied against their. interests because of this idea, not only of political expediency, but also the idea of what we talked about with the males and distinctiveness threat. You are a threat to the boundary on which I base my entire identity. And so in the case of, like, if you just look at the suffragettes, right? So Elizabeth Katie Stanton, who's like one of the most celebrated suffragettes, she actually campaigned against actively going around the country. country campaigning against the 15th Amendment, which would grant black men the right to vote.

Because she saw that as an insult and a threat to white women's status that black men would get it before white women. She also, the basis that she used, okay, so the same way that turfs are vilifying transgender people, the basis she used to do that was to say that this vile conception of black men as potential rapists, right? That whole horrible thing that can, you know, continues to pervade culture is completely inaccurate. And by the way, that's what they do now with the transgender people. Like, think, think, oh, they're going to get you in your bathrooms.

Think about bathroom bills. Right. They're always finding a way to make the person who is most screwed by power seem like the predator. Right. Which, by the way, I mean, you know, let's just acknowledge the fact that like black people were being literally crucified by lynchings throughout this entire period, most of which were based on false claims that black men and black boys had raped white women. That's right. So she's leaning into this, this whole idea of them as a threat, which then threatens their lives.

Yes. And by the way, sets up. this whole notion of feminine fragility, which is saying that white women need these rights, not because they're equal, but because they need protection from this outside threat. Okay. So that happens over and over and over again. We finally get the 19th Amendment. We totally leave behind the fact that black men and white and black women were completely disenfranchised that whole time.

after we got it, right? So white women get the vote. We're like, sweet, let's celebrate. They're completely disenfranchised by voter laws. And we never look back again and do anything to help them, which is exactly repeating itself now, right? We elect Trump out. Few, great.

Thank God. We're safe again. And all of the voting laws that are happening right now in the South after Georgia's historic show. up in the last election, they're all being disenfranchised again. And we're just going on our merry way like, sweet, that's a relief. I mean, it's just, it is at, it's at the core of everything that white feminism has been and transgender people. So please just, just think carefully every time you hear one of your, a turf or a lawmaker say, well, we have to protect women. You'll see this now in the sports

conversation, right? Oh, we can't let trans kids into sports. You know, first, a minute ago, we were supposed to be scared of trans people in bathrooms, right? That's what they were leading with. Now we're supposed to be scared of trans people taking over the sports sport. I mean, where have they been protecting us all fucking long? Right. All of the people who are so suddenly, it's like whenever patriarchy finds someone to hate worse than women, they suddenly love women. Like, they say, suddenly want to protect us. I would love to see every single one of these lawmakers who's suddenly so interested in making women's sports fair. I would like to see the list of all of the other

efforts they've made over the years to ensure equality in women's sports. So over and over again, women inside of sports are telling the world what they need to make sports fair. They need investment. They need to be paid. They need health care. They need. But All of that goes unanswered. Don't be fooled, people. Don't be fooled. Whenever they tell us that they're trying to protect women, it's always horseshit. Right?

They are not trying to protect us any more than they were trying to protect us during the civil rights era. They're just trying to use women as an excuse to keep groups oppressed. That's right. This time of year, I am always looking for my sweaters. Luckily, Quince has all of the staple sweaters covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. I can't tell you how much I'm loving my quince cashmere sweater in this gorgeous oatmeal

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Ixl.com slash we can. Visit Ixel.com slash weekend to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Okay, let's finish up with what is quickly becoming my favorite part of the whole podcast, which is our pod squatter of the week. Hey, Glennon and sister. My name is Jim. I'm sure I am one of many men who listen to your podcast and who have read or listened to Untamed. It's an amazing book. You two are two amazing women, and I'm proud to say that I'm a feminist, and I'm also a gay man. And I think your book really resonated with me in that when you talk about the struggle,

of women and misogyny, the same can be said about gay men as well and how we're, as a boy, we're raised to not be gay. You know, I'm 56 years old and, you know, my parents were set in their ways, and I wasn't supposed to be gay. I was married. I have a son. He's grown. He's also gay as well. But I guess what I'm trying to be. to say is, oh my gosh, the feelings, the things I feel are so deep. And sometimes I think, why do I feel so deep and so hard? I wish I could just shut everything off. I don't really have a question and I don't really know what to say except I think I must be the male version of you guys. And I love you guys so much. And I love your podcast. And I just do. You guys are

awesome, keep doing good work. And yes, we can do hard things. And I woke up this morning with that song in my head. So I thank you, I think your daughter, Pish, and I thank Brandy Carlyle. You guys are great. Thanks. I don't even want to, I just want to end with Jim. You're beautiful. I hope you never, ever shut any of yourself down. We need more of that, not less. not ever less. Thank you, Jim. All right, like Jim, let's all remember this week. Until we meet again, that life is really hard, but we can do hard things.

Love y'all. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. I came out the other side. I chased desire I made sure I got was mine I continued to believe that I'm the one for me And because I'm a... Because we're adventurers and heart breaks on map A final destiny

Out-asking direction directions to places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll find through the joy can do a heart it felt like a brand new star and sometimes things fall apart I continue to the best people are free It took some time but I'm finally fine Because we're adventurers and heart breaks on map A final destination we lack

They've stopped asking directions To places They've never been And to be Can do hard Adventure Asking To place never been

And too can do hard Yeah Yeah We can do hard things Is produced in partnership With Cadence 13 Studios Be sure to rate, review And follow the show on Apple Podcasts

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