We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 223. Get What You Want at Work & Home: How to Negotiate with Mori Taheripour

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

If the word “negotiation” makes you feel tense and sweaty and like the last thing you want to do is listen to this conversation . . . then what you absolutely need to do is listen to this conversation. Because it turns out we've been thinking about negotiation all wrong, and today we empower ourselves to think about it differently.  Mori Taheripour guides us through the top things we all get wrong in negotiation; the most effective tool in asking for a raise; the ways the vast majority of women undercut our own value; how we can best advocate for ourselves; and how to hold non-negotiable boundaries.   About Mori:  Mori Taheripour is a faculty member at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, where she teaches Negotiations and Dispute Resolution. She also co-founded the Wharton Sports Business Initiative (WSBI), a partnership among top business leaders, faculty, and students that generates and disseminates knowledge about the sports industry through educational programs, high-level student consulting assignments, global forums, and research. Taheripour earned her MBA from the Wharton School and her BA in psychology and pre-medical studies from Barnard College/Columbia University. She is also the author of Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. TW: @MoriTaheripour IG: @mtaheripour

Hello and welcome to We Can Do Hard Things Pod Squad. This is Amanda and I get to intro this episode because I am very excited. It is about negotiation. Okay. Just stay there for a second because if the word negotiate makes you feel tense and sweaty and like the last thing you want to do is listen to this conversation. What you need to do is absolutely listen to this conversation. That's right. Because it turns out we've been thinking about negotiation all wrong. And today we are going to

empower ourselves by thinking about it differently. If you think negotiation isn't relevant to you because you're not some wheeling dealing business powerhouse, we need you to think again because, in the words of our guest, Mori to Harry Port, negotiation is the soundtrack to each of our lives. Whether we're aware of it or not, we do it from the time we wake up and start negotiating with our snooze button and all day long with our pets and our kids and our colleagues and our partners. And mostly, mostly it turns out with ourselves. So we're going to learn how to ask for a raise and how to get what we need from our families. And we're also learning the top things we all get wrong in negotiation, including how the vast

majority of women undercut their own value and negotiate ourselves out of what we deserve before we even open our mouths. Every single member of this pod squad, as Wolfpack leader Abby says, can be grateful for what we have and demand what we deserve. So we're going to figure out how to do that today with Mori to Harrypore. Mori to Harry poor is a negotiation expert who creates transformational change in people who are seeking greater meaning in life and work. She's a faculty member at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, where she teaches negotiations and dispute resolutions. She also co-founded the Wharton Sports Business Initiative. She is also the author of Bring Yourself, How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly.

Welcome, Maury. Hi. I'm so excited. I can't even stand it. We can't stand either. Also, we need to hear right before we started recording, you said something happened right before we got on. What is that?

So I was sitting here just going through my first. my emails and all of a sudden I hear this like really loud sound. And so I look out and no, now there's a big hose that they've got going to the apartment building next to us. And it was loud. So I called the front desk. I'm like, hey, do you know what's happening here? And how long are they going to be doing this? And he's like, I don't know. They didn't tell us. They just got here. And so, well, is there any way that you can go find out? Because the front desk is right there. There's a door in the back. He said, well, even if we found out, what do you think we can do I was like, I don't know, but I have a freaking podcast coming up that I can't have this noise in the background.

So can you just even ask? So I was like, you know what? This is not going to work. And this is just minutes before. So I put on my hugs and I ran out to the alleyway. And I went and tapped on the guy's shoulder into her I said, hey, how long are you all going to be working? He said probably till the end of the day on Monday. I was like, clearly this is not going to work.

So let me tell you what's happening. And I explained to him the whole situation. I said, so let me ask you a question. Are you hungry? Are you going to go eat lunch? And he said, what do you mean? I said, I will buy you lunch. I just need silence between 1.15 and 2.30.

So he's like, no, it's okay. Let me just call my boss. So he called this boss. He's like, well, we're going to see if we can do what we can do. So I ran upstairs again, grabbed the 20, ran back downstairs. He was in there. So I shoved the 20 under his like iced tea. And I came back up and now it's silent.

So I'm hoping he's having lunch and I hope it stays quiet. But that was like literally minutes before I dialed in. You had to negotiate your right to do the podcast. This is a case study in negotiation. And when somebody says, what do you expect us to do about it? And you think there's a solution just do it yourself. Yes. That's right.

It's quicker to bring your body down there and ask the question than to convince somebody that they should ask the question. Yes. So we would love to start with something that I found interesting as soon as I started reading your work, which was that this immediate myth was dispelled that I've always thought that there's like a particular type of human that makes the best negotiator, like this aggressive bulldog kind of personality and that if we don't naturally have that personality, we need to pretend to be aggressive and unyielding.

every single time I've had to do any negotiation, I just put on my negotiation personality. And it just looks with me a lot saying like, no. And I don't think so. So can you tell me how that approach is just a surefire way to suck at negotiating? Well, it's like wearing a coat that's not yours, right? That doesn't fit. It's uncomfortable. And I think that it's no fault of our own. I mean, you turn on the TV and you see the politicians

screaming at each other. You turn on a movie that there's a negotiations and it's these masculine qualities, the aggressiveness and contentiousness and there's all this headbutting that's conflict. And the people that prevail are often depicted as the person who, again, was the contentious one and really results oriented, but aggressively so. But the truth is that even if you're my classes, men and women alike, don't feel comfortable with that persona. They're not that person. And so when they come to a class and have this like anxiety around the class, they're there because they don't think they're great negotiators or even good negotiators. They avoid it at all costs if they can. And part of the reason is that they say, we don't like conflict. And I'm not that person.

I really try to be, but it doesn't feel comfortable. And so it's almost like dishonorable. their values. But that's all we see. That's what we think we should be. And I think that when you're not authentic, that you're constantly trying and in your head, all that's churning is how am I supposed to act? Who am I supposed to be? And as women, you know, I can't smile too much. I can't frown that I'll be obnoxious and mean. I can't, what am I wearing? And that takes up so much space in our head that you're not even really present because the whole time you're thinking about what you should be and how you should be as opposed to being more strategic, hearing what your counterpart is saying, being able to really sort of connect. So I think that society's done such a disservice to us.

It's a misconception that I wish just didn't exist. I loved your line of imagine if you didn't have to worry about how you should show up. Yeah. And that when you're being your authentic self without the bluster of trying to be something else, but without the, like, fear that you're bringing in either. You're not bringing in this hubris, but you're not bringing in this fear. And you just show up as you are, you're able to actually connect with what you can bring, like your emotional intelligence, all of that. I love that so much. And the orange rind experiment, I think that just shows it so perfectly. Can you tell us about that, about how when we're bringing all of our energy to acting in a certain role, we miss...

things that would actually help us. Yeah, it's a sort of famous case. It's like there are two people that are baking something. Somebody needs the rind of the orange and the other person needs the juice of the orange, of a whole orange, but there's only one orange. And so they're trying to figure out how are we going to do this, right? And if one person gets the orange,

the other person loses and can't do what they have to do and vice versa. So they think, oh, the right way to do this is just to split it down the middle. you get half and I get half. And that's how it's supposed to be. And that's not enough for either side. They needed the whole thing. And so had they not thought about what the only solution is here, that it has to be that we're not getting enough of what we want,

but truthfully, if we just at least get half of this, maybe that's the right solution. We'll get there. But it's not because had they sat there and thought about, well, what do you need this for? and what is exactly that you actually need from this orange? And if the person said, well, I only need the rinds. And the other person said, well, I need the juice.

Then they'd be like, well, there's one orange. And I don't need the juice. And you don't need the rinds. So here's the perfect solution. But they didn't get there. And neither one of them were at the end of the day satisfied with the outcome because they didn't get the allotment that they needed of what they needed. But they didn't have a conversation to say, well, what is it exactly?

that you need. And they made these assumptions and they said, okay, let's just put it down the middle. And splitting it down in the middle wasn't the solution. It was just sort of the quickest way to avoid the conflict. And to avoid getting screwed. I feel like so often we're so nervous and we're so afraid we're going to get screwed that we just go in and demand something, but we're not getting to the, what is your intent? What do you need? That's such a simple negotiation if you got to the point where you truly understood what the other person needed. and what you do that. But it's a reaction. It's like you're immediately to your point. You don't want to get screwed. You don't want to be on the losing end. And so being very sort of reactionary in that process and not allowing yourself to think or to converse, then you're just reacting. I put a very big price on satisfaction and feeling so not only valued, but feeling like the outcome that resulted from this conversation is one that was just enough. Right. It was a enough to meet my needs and it was enough to meet meet your needs. It doesn't have to be any more

than that. It was just enough. And sometimes there's a really high value that we should just place on enough because sometimes that's the solution. It's not how much, you know, no pun intended, but can I squeeze the last bit of juice out of this orange, right? Yeah. Is that the first step, even right now I'm thinking, I wonder if I go into negotiations, whether it's with Abby or my kid or business. And I'm thinking there are two possibilities, either I win or this person wins. And is the goal to have like this third thing that like actually that's not it. It's not me or you. It's not one or two. But negotiating is not a battle. It's something else where there's a, we're all trying to get to a third way that is probably not going to meet all my needs or all

years, but it's going to be good enough for both of us. Exactly. And I never use the word when or lose for that matter in my classes because I'm like, what does that mean? Because we all have different values. We all value things in a different way. So success and winning means one thing to me and it could mean something completely different to somebody else. So I think the moment we say winning, one, it's a very competitive term. So it makes you think like, I don't want to be on the losing end of this, right? I got to win, win. and then you're only allotting those two choices because the opposite of winning is losing. And so the truth is that if you sort of relinquish that, you put that aside and you think

this isn't like battle royale. This is our way of coming up with a solution that could be creative and off. And it's not number one or not number two. It could be door number three, four, five, or six because there's a lot of other options. And they may not be all that I envisioned it to be. But you know what? When you sit back and think about it, it might be better than what you ever imagined. And you've preserved a relationship. I think the feeling that we have when we walk away from a negotiations that's not contentious and to feel like we actually heard each other, that we actually saw one another, right? To be seen and heard, I think is so important. And then all of a sudden, the relationship is stronger. And the next time you actually have to have a

similar discussion, that's where you go first, not am I winning or am I losing. Do you strategically ask folks when they're entering into any form of negotiation to communicate what would be a good outcome for each party at the beginning before you enter in? Do you think that that's like a good way to approach any negotiation? That's a great question. I think that even before that is sort of, there's different stages of negotiations and there's sort of the preparation phase that you do on your own. and then what we call information exchange,

which is when you first meet somebody and you're building rapport. And that is transaction free. You're not doing that in service of the outcome that you're going to get. You're doing that really to just create the sort of human connection. And when you do that,

it's not like you're interrogating the person. You're actually finding out more about them. You're building connections. Maybe I always say pay attention to what's in the background. I thought Zoom actually really helped us, whoever knew, but I thought it's actually a great thing for negotiations because we're in each other's homes. Otherwise, we would be in a conference room or an office and it's sterile and you don't know anything about this person. But now we're gifted. We're given this privilege

of getting to know people. Use that opportunity. They're sharing their life with you and that's a privilege. And so before you even get to that point, Abby, where you say, what is it that you really want. I feel like that's kind of a personal thing to even ask somebody. I feel like first, you have to show authentic interest and sort of have that empathy. And then they become human to you. And in a lot of ways, you become human to them. And by the way, I tell people, if you can't do this authentically, I'd rather you not do it at all and just say, why are you here? Right? Because people know BS when they see it. And so don't do that. But really try to sort of make this connection. And then once that's done, and you're going to make this opening offer and you start the negotiations process,

if you turn around to somebody and say, listen, here's a thing. It's important to me. It's part of my values that when we walk away from this, that we're both happy in whatever measure that is, that we both feel satisfied with this conversation, with this opportunity. And even if we don't come to an agreement that we feel really good about this process, I can tell you what I'm looking for. And what's your objective here? what is it that you want to get to? Because for me, that's my objective. I want us to get to a place

where we're both happy. And now it's not sort of, again, this interrogation, you're saying, we built this connection and I'm going to build on that connection to let you know not only how I want to behave through this process, but I want to really know what's important to you. Once you know somebody's interests, once you know somebody's sort of deep-seated needs and desires and wants, that's so powerful because you can either choose to give it to them or not. but you have the power of that knowledge and you can navigate that way. I love that because everything that you've just said about the qualities that you're bringing to that moment are things that we have historically assumed are feminine values,

the empathy, the deeply listening, the I am observing all of this about you and picking up on your energy. That's the opposite of the caricature we see of the bulldog. And it reminds me, my dad had this sign in his wood shop all growing up that said, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. And it makes me think of this because if your only tool is aggressiveness in negotiation, then every negotiations is a fight. But if you start to expand our tools to be things like deeply listening and creativity

and empathy, then negotiations is just a process of collage. collaborative problem solving. And I can't think of people better suited to be collaborative problem solvers than women in this country. I mean, we are constantly negotiating a thousand demands. And so what other tools are we sitting here thinking, I'm a shitty negotiator because I hate conflict and I'm the people pleaser? What are we discrediting from ourselves that are super valuable negotiation tools that we think aren't relevant, but actually, really are, that we need to lean into those. I do think that women are incredible negotiators if we allow ourselves to be, if we give

ourselves permission to, again, show up exactly as we are. Because at our core, we have these characteristics. We are natural problem solvers because we have to be. We're juggling 15,000 things. I'm running downstairs and giving this guy a $20 bill because nobody will ask him what they're doing, right? So we're natural problem solvers. We seek relationships.

We're not transactional people. We're drawn to relationships. We're drawn to authentic relationships. We have both the patience and the interest to want to hear people. We're, again, collaborative in the way that we actually problem solve and not it's just me or it's just you and that's the end of it. We're emotionally intelligent. I can go on and on about the qualities that I think make for incredible negotiators, right? You want to have all these qualities.

But here's the thing, I ask people in my class, I'm like, when you hear that somebody's a great negotiator, what do you think? They're like contentious, aggressive, white guy. They're like everything that they've imagined. And it looks nothing like most of the people in the classroom. And so I think that even people pleasers, a lot of women are people pleasers, but a lot of people are people pleasers. We have been told time and time again that we can't be great negotiators because we don't value ourselves. We value other people over ourselves. I think people pleasers are actually quite honorable. When you're a people pleaser, yes, you want to make the other side happy and you put tremendous value in that. But in order to do that, you have to be a good listener.

You have to be emotionally intelligent. You have to be willing to problem solve. And so people pleasers have all these great qualities. They're empathetic. So again, the makeup is there. The only problem is that we do it at our own detriment because the only person we don't have empathy for is ourself. And I think that rather than thinking, let me punish myself for those things that I think are our strength and really beautiful and thinking, I have to be something different. If we give ourselves permission to be just that and then first thinking about yourself and giving yourself permission to do that, and then using all those gifts to think about the other person, and allow them a seat at this table and don't serve them but work with them.

And you have needs to. And those needs are really important. There's nothing wrong with being a people pleases. You're taking care of people. But you're saying also do that for yourself. Because just to serve yourself, you're not leaving somebody else out. You're actually bringing them in and creating an opportunity for both of you to be happy. So is that the difference?

is the two people coming to the table. If we're both people pleasers, if we both identify ourselves and ourselves needs first, then it will work. But if a people pleaser comes to the table and their immediate goal is how do I make everybody else happy here, what happens to the people pleaser? I think even their success to be had there. But this work has to happen and way before that negotiation even starts. This is the deep work, right? Because when people say, oh, you're a people pleasers, so what you have to do is just think about your goals. Well, is that really it? Or are we people pleasers because we don't think that we are worthy of being anything more? Are we people pleasers because our culture has told us to shut up and don't speak up? And that's how we behave because that's how we've been raised. Are we people pleasers because we think that everybody else's needs are more and

important than mine because otherwise I'm not a good mother or a wife or a friend. That's sort of the emotional hygiene that I think has to happen before you even think about what you want out of negotiations because first you're valuing yourself. Yeah. And when you do that work, when you get rid of that narrative in your head and you start to place value on who you are and what you are and loving that part of you. Then when you start preparing and you're thinking about your goals, your goals reflect your value, that which is aspirational, that which comes from a place of deservidness, and it changes the game. So I think this process where you look inward first, I think it allows room for both people, even if the other side is not a people pleaser,

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Let's talk about valuing yourself because as you're saying, if you don't do that first, if you don't understand your value deeply, then you are never going to be able to come with confidence and explain to someone else your value. And this shows up all the time. And I think for a billion different reasons, but I was reading somewhere how women will not apply for a job when they're reading job descriptions that almost 80% of the reason that women don't apply for jobs is because they don't meet every single one of the listed criteria. Whereas men, if they meet 60% of the criteria, are like, great, looks good. And that is all about value.

We are negotiating ourselves out of it, not even giving ourselves a chance to show our value. because we're looking at these things and saying, oh, I don't fit. I can't possibly bring the value to this table. So what are the practices that we can do when we have been conditioned to underestimate our value, to not see it, to wait on the invitation to show up to a place? What can we do to actually cultivate something that entire culture has been trying to decultivate from us from birth? Right. I think that things like imposter syndrome or negative self-talk, I wish I could tell you that here's a pill you can take and you'll never have to struggle with this again. But for those of us that struggle with it, it's constant. And when you count yourself out all the time, then that's why when you look at this job description, nothing you've done seems to have prepared you for this job. You're not even in your head thinking about where are my skills that could be transferable. So when I write this cover letter, I can say women are like 90% of the stuff I have, but for that 10% I am not qualified. How can I even show up in this cover letter in the bid for this job in a way that says, but I'm the one, right? Again, that work is really deep and it's hard and it's painful and a lot of us don't want to do it.

So again, you have to kind of get over that because men are not taught to be that way. They're almost raised with a sense of fearlessness. They count themselves in and count everybody else out. And these are big generalizations I know, but I've seen it up in the classroom. We have these case studies. And they come back, they give us the results, and then we talk about the results.

And if there's a woman who hasn't done as well as she wants, I ask her, what happened, not in a punitive way, but just tell me the story what happened during this process. First thing out of her mouth is, well, I'm just such a terrible negotiator. Ask a man, what happened? And it'll be like, well, my partner was really aggressive. And he didn't give us any time to even talk about this. And he's projecting all those things on the other person and has zero accountability for what he could have done to have made things better. Whereas she's thinking, this is all my fault. I wasn't made for this. I wasn't built for this moment. And when that happens time and time and time again, we take that as a personal rejection. as the guy would say, yeah, they rejected me, but they didn't deserve me there anyway. Right? And so we count ourselves out. We don't even go to the negotiations or worse yet. We don't even recognize that there could be an opportunity for negotiations. And we carry those things with us and

it becomes habitual. And isn't it also the way the world receives us? Because we can act a certain way at a table as a woman. We can be curious. We can be open. But what we also know that a certain face we make or a certain question we ask is immediately translated to mean something completely different to the men relating to each other at the table. So with all of this, I mean, we all know that it's just not leaning in harder that's going to work. Like we lean in and people are like, why the fuck is she leaning? How do we deal with that? How do we compensate for the way people are receiving us based on gender? Yeah, I always thought lean in works for some people. But for the majority of us, it's lean in kind of, right?

Lean in sort of. It's a good title for this episode. Lean in kind of. Well, and that's also, I want to speak to the idea that it's like we squeak our way up the top while leaving everyone else behind. How do we behave in a way that those doors open for other people and changes minds about women. Another piece of this that we don't even ever discuss is this just incredibly excruciating double bind that we're in, that even with all the messages that were sent since birth that says

that we don't have the value, then even if we're able to muster it and fight for it and actually get it, we all know that then we face this double bind of the social penalty. that we receive for actually getting it. Oh, God. Because high achieving women are less likable. The more high achieving a woman is, the more likely her husband is to cheat on her. All of the data shows that, okay, it's going to be really hard to get this thing. And also when you get this thing, feel free to take this prize with it, which is that you're not likable and you're going to struggle in your relationships because you've broken the rules.

We are smart. So we know these things where we're going to try to get these things. We know we're going to pay for them on the other end. So do you think that plays a role in how we show up? Because we know we're fucked if we don't get it and we're fucked if we do. That's real. That is real. The men who are my counterparts when they get big deals, it's very important to them that that is announced.

That everyone knows about that deal because that raises their social capital. When my friends who are women, counterparts, get big deals, the most important thing to them is that it is not publicized because they will be attacked. It's suspicious. A high achieving man is successful. A high achieving woman is suspicious. There is something inherently suspicious about how you got that or why you did it. She slept with her boss or she. She's just suddenly horrible. All she wants is money. All she wants is whatever. I knew this about her the whole time. So isn't that an interesting part of this? Like, do we not get what we want sometimes because we're scared shitless of getting what we want? because it's going to be worse when we get what we want than it was when we didn't have what we wanted.

Isn't it horrible? I mean, I don't let these things sort of seek into my head too much because then I'd be like, well, this is all useless. This is our destiny. But here's a couple of things. Yes, there is absolutely a price to pay for negotiations as women. There is a social cost to it because at the end of the day, we are not meeting what society, We're not being who society expects us to be. We're not meeting those social norms.

And we're screwed any way you think about it. The mom that doesn't necessarily want to take a long leave after she's given birth because she really wants to go back to work, she's all of a sudden irresponsible. Whereas the mom that wants to stay at home and take that leave is now, well, of course, she does because that's what women do, right? And so you're left out of promotions. So either way, we are screwed. You can't make everybody happy.

So the only person I can really focus on is myself, building myself up, finding my truth, understanding what I need, and to give myself that voice and that opportunity, because either way, they're not going to like me. Either way, these things are going to work against me. So now I can be more strategic, think about all the things that I want, really think through this process. Then when I show up, I'm not now compensating for this fact that I think people aren't going to like. me because that overcompensating means that you actually won't show up as your authentic self. I'm just going to show up with all that I thought about, all that I prepared with, and I am going

to use my emotional intelligence. I am going to look at you while I'm speaking to see how my words are affecting you. I am going to see if maybe I said something that all of a sudden you're shifting uncomfortably in your seat because that's part of my character. And I'm going to leverage those things. And at the end of the day, there's nothing else you can do. You may lose either way. but at least I haven't talked myself down and negotiated myself out of this opportunity. And I know that I won't really resent this moment. Really regret, actually, because I think regretting something we didn't do is always far worse than actually doing it and it doesn't work out.

The other part of this that I love to talk about, because I have worked in industries that are really male-dominated in sports, for example, you know, for social. You know, for so long at the sort of highest echelonics of sports, not athletes necessarily, but executives, presidents, general managers, front office people. For so long, this has been an industry, not different than investment banking and other industries. We've been told that there's only room for one of us. And if you make it, you better protect that with everything you've got. And what that causes is all of a sudden I'm in like warrior mode because I got to make sure if there's only room for one.

that I am the one. So I'm going to, as you come closer, if you're another woman, I'm going to make sure that I do something that ensures that you're not going to get the opportunity. I'm going to sabotage you. Maybe if I'm your boss, I'm going to make sure that I'm not giving you opportunities or I'm not sponsoring you or mentoring you because they told me there's only room for one and I want to be that one. Who said there's only room for one? Why have we brought to that crap? Wait, supremacy has said there's only room for one. Right. And people say about that, like, women are bad.

Look how women are taking each other over. But it's the misogyny that's bad. It's the misogyny that's inside of all of us that creates that scarcity that makes us try to keep everybody else away so that we can continue to be the one. And that one person, sometimes they are taking less money so that they can stay there. That's something that really rings true for my career doing any endorsements. when Glennon and I met, she could not believe what I was doing for the amount of money that I was doing it, being the athlete that I was and had the career that I was. But it was almost part of the gig. You were like, well, I have to take a little bit less so that they keep asking me. And she taught me the most important thing about how to value myself and to say no when things don't match the value time with the things that I was doing. And it's hard. It's a really hard balancing act to not fuck yourself over and also you're scared that everybody else is coming for that money.

It's scary, you know? Right, right. You're protecting. And if somebody like you at your level, the highest level of achievement has to cut corners or has to, again, negotiate themselves down before they even start negotiating, then we're all screwed. Yep. Right. Yeah. And we all play a role in upholding this scarcity. We all uphold a role. Like when you think about scarcity in negotiation, there's the scarcity of there's the one orange. And there's no way in which we can both be satisfied with one orange. There's the scarcity. And when you go into a negotiation, you think this is my one shot of a deal in our business. We always call it. We're going to, we're going to shear the sheep

instead of slaughter. We are going to be back here again. And we don't need to rush in and take this thing because we don't trust that we be back here again. Glennon is always lifting up authors and people because there is room for all of it. We need to, as a people, we need to check ourselves when we see a successful woman. When we see a woman making her money and not being ashamed of it, we need to check our feelings about why don't I like her. And let me sit with that for a hot minute before I realize that that is because I have been told not to like her. And why am I holding my place in this business so ferociously as if I can't

mentor this woman up behind me? That is our scarcity training. And we can choose to drop that. We can choose to let that go. This notion of abundance versus scarcity, I think, is so huge in negotiations in hell and life, right? That if we can't imagine anything but limits, Possibility doesn't exist. Everything is just limited. Then our goals are limited. What we want out of life is limited. The opportunities we go after are limited. The way we show up in a relationship is limited. Our happiness is limited. We don't give ourselves enough joy because if you think there's even a price to pay for that, we don't start sort of investing in this notion of abundance. That why isn't there room for me? And you start changing the stories. And if you stop yourself and you say, how probable? is it that that's really going to happen? Like if they hire this other woman that, you know, the owner of this company is going to come up to me and say, well, we hired another one, so you got to go.

How likely is it that that's going to happen? And we don't challenge our own thinking. We're constantly fighting. Instead of challenging your own thinking, changing the way that you're behaving. And by the way, I don't always think that's fair because it's like, why do we always have to do all the change? When is society going to meet us halfway?

When are they going to stop making us think there's only real? for one, right? So that, even that responsibility can't be hours and hours alone, but it's got to start with somebody that can start that change and then hold other people accountable. But the only person I can be accountable is to myself. And I am not going to treat a woman a certain way or not leave room for somebody or not get behind somebody because I think then I'm going to be left out. What does that say about my confidence? I can't buy into that. And there have been times where I've been really jealous of other people's successes. And I've had to really struggle. with that. And I've had to say, well, what's wrong with this person getting this opportunity?

Instead of thinking all the things you had and they did, but how is it fair that that person got that opportunity, it was so ugly. What am I doing? But it's because the opportunities were not limitless. They were limited. And it's because I thought, don't I deserve that spotlight? So then I changed that. And I said, well, if you deserve it, then go after more of them, right? if you deserve it, then change the way you're going after them. Network differently. And, you know, once you do that, it's almost like your heart opens up. And you can pull people up.

It's like a gravitational pull, but it was not easy. And it's, I've had my own share of really sort of that ugliness that I've had to like fiercely conquer. I feel that all the time. I always think of it as an alignment. Like who in this situation am I aligning with? Power or with the people who are trying to change the way power operates. So if you're supporting.

people who are trying to get in the door, then you'd be assured that you're aligning with the, and if you're trying to keep stuff over here with yourself and power, you can be sure you're aligned over there. But I will say, that doesn't mean that every single time somebody gets some awesome situation. I feel very jealous. I still do all the time. I just don't, I don't let myself behave in the way that somebody who's feeling the way that I, that I am feeling naturally would. I do the opposite thing of how I am and feel. And then that changes my heart. But it's not that my heart is doing that first. My heart is usually very jealous and icky. But then I just do the opposite thing. And it's like a cart and horse thing. And then I remember,

oh yeah, these are the people that I want to be with anyway. This is why I love you as much as I do, because most people would never say that. Of course, I'm never jealous. Are you kidding? I'm so happy for everybody. That is such bullshit because you probably are. And it's probably really painful. And you can't help but compare yourself. And you've worked hard and you should have been there is what you're thinking. But nobody ever admits to those. And I think that we do each other a disservice to actually not bring that level of honesty and sort of vulnerability out because otherwise I'm thinking, am I the only one who's this ugly about this? I'm such an asshole for thinking that's. But no, it's a very human response. But then

and just do the work. So I'm grateful for that because I think the conversation can be had in such a more authentic way that makes us challenge ourselves in the best way possible. But we never admit to that. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for saying that. I think most of my life I'm just thinking, if I were a better person, what would I do? And then I just do that. I don't think that's that. I think that like what you're so genius at is that you allow yourself to be human. Exactly. And because you're capable of saying things outside that you're feeling on the inside more than most, I think that that's true. I mean, when I was benched, I had to, like, excuse myself from the conversation to go throw some shit around in a hotel room. Yeah.

Because I was fucking pissed. Yeah. There's a delta between getting benched and lead from the bench wherever you are. That's about an hour and a half of throwing shit against the wall. That's right. I'll be right back. I'll be back before I lead from the bench. The wolf pack will return.

But first, I'm going to destroy some shit. Yeah. So many people don't give themselves that moment of humanity that allows you to actually learn more about what this is. Oh, this jealousy, this means that I actually want this. I want what they have. Right. That's interesting. Right.

You don't have to act on the jealousy. Yeah. Just being aware of it. Right. And same with misogyny. We all feel it. We all feel that stuff. I have thoughts I shouldn't think.

about other women. Yeah. Right? It's just like understanding that's not your truest self. That's conditioning. And so your knee-jerk reaction is not where you have to stay and land. Yes. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge.

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someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed in-network therapists without all the runaround. You can browse without even making an account and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience, whatever helps you. you feel understood. Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97% say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello-a-l-m-a-com slash W-E-C-A-N. As I was reading your practical things to do, I realized that

They apply in every area of my life, not just business, but even like with myself. Because I think most of our, most of us, what I'm doing all day is negotiating with myself. Yes. I didn't go do this. Do I really want to do this? Am I going to get out of the couch? Am I going to do the like all day? How do we do anything?

I'll work out at six. I'll go at seven. How about eight? Nine? Eight. Should I be mad at him? Yeah, I should be mad. Yeah.

Oh, that's ridiculous. No, you have a right to be mad. All day long. Totally. And even when I'm not negotiating with myself, I'm still negotiating with myself, I'm still negotiating with myself with someone else. So like if I'm in the shower, all I'm doing is fighting with someone in my brain who is not there and doesn't know that I'm mad at them, but I'm having a full on negotiation with them in my head by myself. So on. First of all, you said, don't do things for

free. And I want to just talk about that for a minute because what I think about that now and I'm like, you know, 20 years into my career, I'm like, yes, I believe that. If I had not done things for free the first seven years, 10 years of my career, like if somebody would have said, do you want to write this article? And I said, no, I will not do it unless you pay me. They would have said like, okay, big stuff. We're going to ask the 700 other people who want to write this article to do it. But maybe we say that. I know. Maybe it's not true. I just don't know that that's true. The number of people, do it for exposure. You've said no to 99.9% of that your whole entire career. And I think it's part of why you're able to make a living on it now.

Yes and no, though, because the story she told herself could have been true. It could have been. They could have been like, screw you. And then you're like, oh, my God, I should have just taken whatever they were going to give me, even if that was nothing, right, just to get the opportunity. I think that you have to make a decision to do it and then explain to yourself why you're going to do it and how it's going to benefit. you because then you're thinking about it critically and you're thinking about the benefits because

it's not always in the form of money. I've done plenty of things for free, especially in a sports industry, right? Just to get in and have a conversation with the right people and people are like, this league, they have so much money. Are you crazy? But now they call on me as sort of a trusted resource. But for many years, that was not the case. But I did it because it's like my first love. This is what it's going to take for me to have a leg in. This is what it's going to take for me to do it. I don't do that anymore necessarily, but it took all that time to be recognized and and sort of let in. But I did it knowing. I did it knowing that it's not going to be forever and I did it because I thought it made sense because there's so much competition. They will tell you to basically go square yourself because

there's plenty of people that will work for free just to be in what they consider very sexy industry. So I always think, one, I forgive myself for that because I did it for a reason and it panned out pretty much the way I needed it to. But it's also that you have to be judicious. It can't be yes to everything all the time forever. You have to know when to turn that dial. You have to know when to turn, hit the off button, right? Because otherwise it gets stuck on yes. And if you say yes and yes and yes, why should they ever pay you? Why should they ever value you? Because you don't even value yourself. We'll take you to lunch, right? Screw lunch, right? I don't want lunch. But you've done that to yourself. And so do it in a way that you've thought through it. I'm going to be really judicious in the decisions that I make and understand the value of it and know that sometimes it's worth more than any contract that I could get. I think that's the conversation we have to have. It feels to me, like with you in the sports world, this was the thing that we were talking about earlier, that like you were getting to know the other. You're getting to know them. That's the beginning of the negotiation.

Yes. That's like the start of it. Like you had something to say and you were getting to know them before you could. Huh. That's a cool way of looking at it. I mean. I do believe that you have to work on relationship building. And this is like the first part of that. Here's another one that I struggle with that we get wrong in negotiation is filling the silences. Can you talk about that? How we screw ourselves. Huge. Huge.

Huge. The worst of this. I can't handle silences. You just did it. It's the worst thing in the world. You want to like fill up all that space with words. And they're usually really bad. This is how it usually works for me.

I want X. 10 seconds to silence. Okay. I'll take Y. Okay, fine. You make a whole presentation. And you sit back. You show them the budget.

And then there's like complete. deafening silence in the room. And the worst place you can go is to say, but you know, this is all negotiable. Yes. As though that's not the unwritten rule anyway, as though I had to tell you that it's negotiable. But I'm just doing that because you were silent and I didn't know what to do with it. And we do it in relationships. We do it with work stuff. And it's because the silence is making those really bad stories in my head actually sound louder. Yes. Right.

That other voice is now screaming because I'm not communicating with you. And the only thing I'm communicating with are those things in my head that are like all the bad stories. They must have hated it. Why did you chart so much? Who do you think you are? All that shit is happening because they're not speaking. And the truth is that the minute you start changing that behavior and make yourself, just go

the bathroom. You get up, excuse me, I'm going to go to the bathroom and sit there and do whatever you have to do. Now you've bought some time and you can go back and maybe now they're ready to talk. Or the worst is to me, if it's by email, because I wasn't even able to see your reaction. Now I wrote a full script about what you must have thought when I sent, when I hit press. So we have to become comfortable with silence. And it's just like a game of chess. I know we're not winning and losing and chess is probably a horrible metaphor because it's winning and losing. But it's also like you move your chess piece and then you're like real quick and then you move it again real quick.

Instead of just waiting for the other person, you just retreat. Yeah, it's not your turn. It's not your turn. It's not your turn. And so much magic happens because it's really like I have determined my value. It's like set when you set a boundary and you're like it's not the setting of the boundary that's hard. It's the holding of the boundary. And it's not the setting of the what I want that's hard.

It's the holding of the wanting. So we have to emphasize the hold as much as the explanation. You think it would be right if we just said your turn. Your turn. Your turn. Yeah. Okay. I talk now too.

Tag you're it. Yeah. But the boundary is in that pause. Right? The boundary is in that hard stop. I'm just going to sit in this for a minute. And again, I've struggled with us all the time myself. But I've realized that the pause as a strategy for me is what really works.

And my boundary is in that moment. My boundary is in that quieting my own stories. Because you're embodying. You're embodying it. It's because anybody can say the things and not mean it. You're just saying words, words, words. This is my value. This is my value.

This is my value. But only someone who's actually embodied their value can then sit. afterwards and just let it be. And it's a self-loyalty. I will not negotiate against myself. I might have to negotiate with this person. I might have to have a tough conversation. What I'm not going to do is diminish my value, my own self. And because when you're speaking into the pauses, you're not even responding to something they said. You're responding to your greatest fear about what they're thinking. Right. If that conversation didn't exist, it's the one that you're having with yourself, right?

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If I'm someone who does great work, I know my value, I feel passed over for promotions, and I feel like I deserve a raise, what's the best way to broach? Asking for a raise, yeah. Not to say I deserve a raise. Oh, okay, see? I already got it wrong. With nothing that comes behind it is what I should say, right? Because unfortunately, what I think I deserve may be completely different than the way you're measuring success or my achievement.

Orange Rind. What you think you deserve is irrelevant. What is the person need? Yes. Okay. I always think that, first of all, nobody likes talking about compensation or salaries. It's difficult for everybody because generally money is a difficult. conversation for everybody, both on your side and their side. But what I think that we forget is that

this person that we're talking to is going to become our advocate. This is not episario. They have to then go talk to HR or they have to find the money of the budget. So you're going to be my best cheerleader. And in order for you to do that, I have to give you all the tools and resources with which you can advocate on my behalf. So that doesn't mean why. walking into your office again and saying, well, I want to raise because I think I deserve it. No. How are they going to communicate that to somebody? That's a decision maker. Or if they're the decision maker, how they're not going to be like, well, who are you? So I want to come in. First of all, I want to make sure it's the right moment, right? If the person's having a bad day,

again, the emotional intelligence thing, make sure that this is sort of that opportunity. And what you have to come in and do is give them all the information they need to be able to tell your story. And for them to actually believe your story, to actually think what you're saying is objectively valuable, not subjectively valuable, but objectively valuable. So you're giving them the data. You're telling them about all of your accomplishments. You're telling them about all the things that you've done that now have prepared you for this conversation and why you think you deserve this race, because it's value that you've added. So now they can go and express that because you have added value.

You just gave them all this information. And just a really sort of hard tool for that, though, is I always tell people, if you have a hard time asking for raises or changing your compensation, increasing your compensation, every time you achieve something, big or small, write it down and start journaling all those things. Because those of us who struggle with things like imposter syndrome, we may leave half those things up to luck. I just got lucky. No, I did this. I worked through the weekends. I, you know, you all had laid off for

people. I took on their roles and you're just, you're writing all this down. So that when that moment comes, you're not depending on your memory that is going to fail you because of your mindset in the first place, but you actually have that hard data and you can go in and now you can use that to tell that story. But this should not be an adversarial conversation. This person is going to be your advocate, but you have to equip them with that information. Okay, that's work setting. What about home setting? I am at a busy day at work.

My spouse is a busy day at work. Change in plans, get a call. Someone's got to pick up the kid. Okay? We each hypothetically believe that the other is due for this pickup. How are we working that out? Which appears to be a zero sum. What do we do?

when we are in relationships, when we've been with somebody for a long time, even if it's a friendship, we stop being curious about them. Truth. We start assuming everything about them, right? What they're doing, what they're feeling, what their purpose or their reason is for that behavior, because we're writing their script. But if you leave room for the curiosity still, even in that, in that moment, maybe what he's trying to forego. is there's going to be a really big meeting that or even a big dinner that he knows he has to be at because this is going to be pivotal in sort of this promotion that he's trying to get. And maybe for you, it wasn't something as important as that you were, you have to sort of ignore or not do.

But unless you talk about, well, what is it that you have to do and what is it that I have to do? and how is this going to work today. But then when you get home, then you can say, look, this may happen over and over again. You can't keep calling me at 4.30 every day and say, well, I have to go to this dinner. And I'm happy to have done it this time. Maybe I'll even be happy to do it next time because your promotion will benefit the rest of the family. But I need you to understand why I can't do it all the time. And you need to explain to me how valuable whatever it is that you have to do is in comparison.

to what I'm doing so that we can work this out, but we have to talk about it. And I think that unless we have those conversations, unless we're curious about these things, then it's going to lead to that resentment. We have to talk and not be afraid of it and not think it's going to create conflict because guess what? That conflict's going to be created if you ignore it. It's going to build up over time. And the very relationship you were trying to save is going to fall apart because you didn't

start at that. What is it that you have to do? Let me tell you why I didn't want to skip it. All it was was worked. you only talked. Beautiful. Oh, thank you so much. You are wonderful. Your book is wonderful. Thank you. You've helped us think about negotiation differently. Thank you. It's been really helpful to all three of us. Yeah. I'm so happy. And your negotiation worked. I didn't hear any hoses the whole time. Here it is in action folks. Learn to negotiate. He might still be at lunch. Yeah, exactly.

I just want to say thank you. I don't know if I've ever been this excited. This should not be lost on you. Is that when my book came out, it was the pandemic, at the beginning of the pandemic, everything was shut down, warehouses were shut down, Amazon was not delivering. It was just awful. And I was like, okay, all is lost. And you know what sort of pulled me through all that?

I got to just show you because it's where you were. Yes. She picked up a copy of untamed. I had it before all this stuff went down and then I read it and I got lost in it. This deserves all the praise that it gets. And I was just so proud of your relentless honesty that it did a lot for me. And it gave me sort of the fortitude to sort of get through the worst of times. And then I listened to your audio and I was like, this is even better on audio.

I adore you. And Abby, it goes without saying you are everything. Amanda, thank you for being so gracious. This was everything. Really. Thank you. Very much. Thank you.

All right, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time. Negotiate the shit out of this week. Yeah. Bye. When given an option of A or B, there is always a to be revealed C, D, E, F and G. Exactly. Go get it.

Always. Go get it. Always. Thanks, y'all. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.