We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 226. Enneagram: Why You Are the Way You Are with Suzanne Stabile

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

Enneagram Godmother Suzanne Stabile guides us through: What the hell is the Enneagram and why does it matter?  The gifts and struggles each Enneagram type faces; Why the worst part of you is also the BEST part of you; The core desire / fear that explains your behavior; and  Why, if Suzanne ever needs brain surgery, she’s finding a doctor who’s an Enneagram 1. And we FINALLY answer the question: Is Amanda a 3 or a 1?   (Also meet back here tomorrow for a bonus episode where Suzanne uses the Enneagram to fix our relationships.) About Suzanne: Suzanne Stabile is an internationally-recognized Enneagram teacher. She is the co-author of The Road Back to You, and the author of The Path Between Us and The Journey Toward Wholeness. With backgrounds in sociology and theology, Suzanne has served as a high school professor; the first women’s basketball coach at SMU after Title IX; and as the founding Director of Shared Housing, a social service agency in Dallas. Suzanne lives in Dallas with her husband Rev. Joseph Stabile. She is the mother of four children and grandmother of nine. TW: @SuzanneStabile IG: @suzannestabile To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And to be loved we need to be normal. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Oh, we have a treat today. Very excited. Today we are going to learn from the best about all things Enneagram. Today we have Suzanne Stabil, many of you know, and who is an internationally recognized Anyogram teacher. She is the co-author of the Road Back to You and the author of the path between

us and the journey toward wholeness. With backgrounds in sociology and theology, Suzanne has served as a high school professor, the first women's basketball coach at SMU after Title 9. And as the founding director of Shared Housing, a social service agency in Dallas. Suzanne lives in Dallas with her husband, Reverend Joseph Stabiel, and she is the mother of four children and grandmother of nine. Wow. So does anyone ever call you the anyagramma or no? Just me. No, they do call me the godmother.

People call me the anyagram godmother and we don't know who started that, but we like it. Yeah. So we're going with it. Of course. Of course. For those few people who don't know about the anyagram, can you explain to us what it is and why it matters?

Sure. I'm going to start with it matters. And it matters because it addresses dualistic thinking. It addresses everybody's need to belong and their desire to have their life-f-meaning. It adds compassion to everybody who knows it and makes space for it in their lives. And it changes how we recognize our own importance in the world. So the antigram is nine ways of seeing. That's what it should be referred to as because that's what it is. And there are nine numbers, but they could have been trees or flowers or birds, they happen to be numbers and none are better than the others. And in the reality of all of that, when it comes together, the seven plus billion people who are on the planet, identify with one of the nine numbers. And it's tricky right now because we have trendy NEagram.

And there's two sides to everything. And there's two sides to trendy NEagram. And the downside is that you can't know your NEagram type with a quiz are based on your Halloween costume choice or what kind of salad you like. It doesn't work that way. And in fact, I'm not a fan of any of the indicators of the tests. Hmm. For several reasons. One reason is because too many people come to me who after they hear me teach it orally,

report to me that the test was wrong. Wow. I mean a high percentage of people. And secondly, because your any gram number is determined by motivation and not by behavior. Ah, and the tests measure behavior. Okay. Wow.

We all do the same things, right? We all do the same things. Right. It's why we do them that matters. Okay, can you go through the numbers? Because we actually want to talk about the neogram. How to, I don't know, is use the right word? How to see the, okay, use the grimeyogram

to help our relationships. Because I have found it so helpful to understand and be compassionate to other people. I think that's a really beautiful way of using it. But can you first go through the numbers and tell us your favorite way to describe each and have people see themselves in the number or not. Sure.

If real quick, could you synthesize 40 years of your excertion DJ? Yeah, three minutes. Okay, great. Do y'all have anything for the third hour are you scheduled? Because you need to have somebody cancel that. We just have you today.

God bless you all day. God bless you all day. So you're in trouble. All right. First of all, I need to back up for a minute. Okay. In three hours, you will understand why after reading all that you have written, it would be my great desire to know you. And there are maybe 20 meaningful solid reasons for that.

But I want to give you two. We're not going to get anywhere if we can't tell the truth. And we're not going to get anywhere if we can't tell the truth shamelessly. And I have a lot in common with you. My first marriage was the wrong marriage. I fought the good fight for women in athletics. And we could talk about that for two and a half hours. Abby, you and I could talk about that for five and a half hours. I was cutting it short because it's not just you and me. And the reason people want to be with and learn from me is the same reason that people

want to be with and learn from you. And that's because we've figured out how to tell the truth and how to make space for people so they can be who they are without shame. And that adds compassion to the world. So, thank you for inviting me into this conversation with you. Thank you for that beautiful moment and thank you for seeing me and thank you for the work that you are doing in the world. We have a lot of work to do. Thank God we have a great, that might take more than three hours for all the work we need to do in the world. I'm so glad, I'm so glad that in your threeness you are in charge of how much time we're

spending on feelings and then we're going to get to the stuff. I have to say, no, it's beautiful. I'm totally prepared to talk to the three of you about how messed up you are when it comes to feelings. Oh, my God. I know I love you even more. Thank goodness. Finally, so we can explain to me myself. Yeah, I can.

I've got the three of you. I've got it all figured out, and it's not going to take me long. So we'll get back to the numbers. I'm so excited. And here we go with that. I don't want to run through the numbers because that's what people do. OK. And it's available everywhere.

Great. So I do want to talk about the things that I think are currently really important that each number offers and where each number has a limitation. Perfect. I start teaching with AIDS because anytime I'm teaching a beginning workshop, there are men, mostly men,

and women who don't want to be in the room. They're there because somebody said, if you come to this, I'll, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the agreement is, but you can tell who's all folded up and done want to be there. That's, that's what the men look like at my events as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then you need to have me be your, what do they call that when the, the not as good band comes out before the great the opener? You need me to open for you because I know how to get to those people who don't want to be there. You just talk about them. Everybody wants to know about themselves. Yes, that's good.

Everybody does. So the ones that are the most defiant are eights because they are by their nature the most defiant and They think that this is just a waste of time and they could be playing golf or shopping or whatever And one of the reasons is because eights know that they're eights and They like their number After an eight here's things taught, there are things about themselves

that they feel like they might want to work on a little. After I spend three years with them, there are things they want to work on big time, but it takes time. You gotta break them. Yeah. And their response to life is kind of like, man, if everybody was an eight,

think what we could do. So I teach eights first, and then there are the people who are there who think, this isn't a real thing. We're all just alike. Well, if I teach eights, and then I teach nines, then they find out that we're nothing alike. So then they've got a problem that I no longer have. But I want to teach the numbers in order. So I teach 8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. So that's what I'm going to do now. H are the fastest thinkers, they have more energy than any other number.

They are awkward in relationships. And they are the reason that hard decisions are made. And if they do their work, they can lead people to make hard decisions without second-guessing themselves. And here are some of the reasons why. Their orientation They problem solve an event before it happens. They are passionate about everything they do, and if they're not passionate, they don't do it. But they think passion covers all the feelings. And I have to teach them that passion is A, feeling. And that other people have things like fear and anxiety and all that stuff. So once they learn that and once they do their work, then there is no end to what they

can do. They are feeling repressed because they think passion is the feeling. And so they do life by using the doing and thinking centers. And they do and think about it and do some more and think about it and do some more and think about it. And they don't check feelings. Okay, now I wish I didn't still have to have gender conversations, but we do. And so I have to say that if you take all the gifts that make up eights and you put them

in a man, then in our culture they are highly valued and respected and people line up behind them like they are the Pied Piper. And if you put those exact same gifts in a female, she is a bitch. And my daughter who's an eight started telling us that people were calling her a bitch when she was in the fourth grade. calling her a bitch when she was in the fourth grade. Oh, my daughter who until a year ago was the therapist for all of the Catholic schools in the Fort Worth diocese in Texas, says that now they start calling those little girls bitches in first grade.

And then what follows is they start to stand back and deny themselves who they are and be less smart because that gets them in trouble. They just repress themselves and repress themselves. Joey called me one morning and she said, Mom, I don't think the golden rule applies to eight. And then eight would say that. Like that's it, that you would expect that. And I said, well, darling, what makes you think that? And she said, well, I treat everybody exactly like I want to be treated. And it never goes well. So culturally, there is a difference in how eights are treated around the world, but in our culture. Female eights have to repress themselves until they find a space that values them and until they get comfortable enough in their own skin

and in relationships with other people that they take in how all nine numbers see and their roles as leaders. Wow. Hi, it's Elise Loonon, the New York Times bestselling author of Honor Best Behavior, and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread I'm joined in conversation by those who can help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming. My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seas of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow. Listen and follow Pulling the Thread and Odyssey Podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

So does every number have work like when when you say, if they've done their work, if you say if they've done their work several times? So every number has a specific work in their life that if they do it, they are at their healthiest. If they don't do it, they'll always have challenges. That's correct. Okay. And the thing about the 80 grand is that it shows you, well, That's correct. Okay. And the thing about the antigram is that it shows you,

what you're not getting right, and it shows you how to fix it at exactly the same time. If it's not minimized to cocktail talk and if it's taught well. So I'm gonna keep going through the numbers so we don't use the whole time doing that. Yeah doing that. And then we'll use the next two hours to talk about three of these. Okay, perfect. Listen to that three say, I just want to say I'm just saying I want to ask you, but I'm not positive that she's not a one. I

think we're not supposed to do this to each other. We're not supposed to diagnose each other, but I am just with like your opinion about whether or not she's not a one. I think we're not supposed to do this to each other. We're not supposed to diagnose each other, but I I'm just with like your opinion about whether or not she's a one and I wonder if that's just such a four of Glenin. Well, I don't think that she Camelians, I don't think she changes who she don't use that word I don't just let's put that in the annals. is that what that word is? Yeah, history. Okay. Himalayan, we're going to put in the annals of history. It's dead to us. And we're going to talk about threes in a different way.

Okay, wonderful, wonderful. So I'll tell you, we would be in a world of hurt if we didn't have them. Yeah, okay. Sorry, Sissy. No, like, you might be a one, but we'll know about 530. Oh, Susan, you live in Texas, right? Yeah. Okay, that's really far.

I just want to come to your house right now. I know. I know. Okay. Okay. Okay. You send me when you want to come. And I'll send you my sketch. Oh

God, that's so beautiful. Okay, I'll do it. It's so true That's 100% true I'm gonna be in California twice in the next three months. Oh Will you come to our house? Probably We'll see where we are 530 All right. Nine. Nine's orientation of time is the past. And they're the number if I could be another number that I would want to be.

They're laid back. Peace, love, and they see at least two sides to everything. Now, y'all need to start remembering right now that the best part of you is also the worst part of you. So the best part of eights is that they get stuff done and we want to follow them and they build big things and we want to be part of them and we couldn't make it without them. But we couldn't make it without Nines or ones or twos or threes or fours or fives, six or sevens either. Right.

And so now you have Nines right next to eight. And I guess this is why they're at the top of the any gram maybe. And they kind of fall down both sides of the any gram and in doing that, they can see two sides to everything. Mm, cool. That's the best part of them. but that's the worst part of them. My head brings a nine and that's feeling you at this moment.

That's it. You can't just look at something and think, okay, we're going to do this. And parenting with a nine who sees two sides to everything. It's like, what's up with that? Yeah. Right? We agree that the child is wrong. The nine goes to deal with the child and comes back and says, well, oh my God, sister,

that's happens to you. Of course it does. It's the end of your time. It's not John's fault. Well, thing is, eight yearyear-old Bobby convinced me that he in fact might be right. That's right. Right? That's correct. And then somehow they have this woo-woo magic in them. I'm married to one, too. Where you go? Oh, okay. Yes, right. And then you think, oh, I'm a bad parent.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. All right, along with that, nine's are the most stubborn number on the anyogram. So if you try to get them to do something that they don't want to do, they just dig in a little more. But they don't tell you, oh no, no, no, no, you know why? Because we're in the anger tried right now. So eight anger is straight up and then it's over.

Nine anger, not so much as passive aggressive. Do we need to get him in the room with you so he can defend exactly? Maybe at 630. Okay. Are we doing 630? Your time in my life. All of it. Okay. All right. So, 9s are people who have zero interest in conflict. So they do whatever they can to avoid conflict, but when there is a conflict with their integrity, then there's no doubt what they're going to choose and it's going to be on the side of right. They don't care about the little stuff. They have a preference, but they won't go to bat for the little stuff. The big stuff,

then they are standing solid and you can count on them every time. Their orientation of time is the past. And so they're tethered to what's already happened. And they rely on that to inform what's happening in the present. And they are sometimes too slow to respond, and they struggle to believe that their presence matters. And in that struggle, it's our responsibility to teach them that their presence matters. Wow. With AIDS, it's our responsibility to teach them that we're not going to betray them, because

that's what AIDS expect. AIDS say they have no fears. Their fear is of being betrayed. And so we have to teach them with how we live in relationship with them that we won't betray them, but we cannot just say it to them. We can't do that. It doesn't work. If you walk up to an A and say,

you know I would never betray you, they write you off right then. Ooh. You know, Aits have never argued with this and all these years of teaching, they've never argued with me about this comment. this and all these years of teaching, they've never argued with me about this comment. Ates will have maybe 10 people in a lifetime that they trust. Maybe 10.

All right, so you got these strong ates. Next to them, you've got 9s. They are equally strong, but in a completely different way. And both have gifts that we have to have to make life work. And then we're going to add ones. All right Amanda, we're going to decide for your one right now with one question. Do you have a constant internal critic that you've

had since you were a child that never, ever gives you an add a girl. And that tells you constantly that you're not up for what's happening, that you're not behaving appropriately within what is happening, that you don't have what it takes, that you are never going to get it. No. Then you are not a one because they all have that. Maybe mine was talking so loud that I just heard it for you. I do have the one that's like, you could have done that better. Here's where you missed that thing. But I acknowledge when I am nailing something. And I just think, oh, that marginal thing could have been better.

So that doesn't count, right? That's right. That's three miss. Okay. Okay. Now we all have self-talk. You know, we all beat ourselves up. And when we have lived in the kind of vulnerability that I know, Leonard and Abby and I have lived in, I don't know all that about you yet, but I'm gonna find out. The answer's so quick to know each other better. I'm coming. Let's try to book together.

No. So when life shames you, two's, three's and four's are in the shame, try it. So it's our default emotion. And that's why sometimes people confuse whether or not you're a three or a one. Self talk is everybody and shame is primarily two, three, three. Got it. Okay, nine are the number most people want to be by the way. It's like I want to be that. Just as a T-shirt that says laid back since way back.

And that's how he is, actually. All right, once, let's imagine for a minute a little kid who starts to hear this voice in his head, it might be one he's heard somewhere else it might not be, who just criticizes him all the time or her. And let's say that she's in second grade, and because of the critics, she can't stand to a race. So every time she makes a mistake in school, she starts over, and she starts over because her

orientation of time is the present moment and she can't get it right and she knows it looks bad if she erases and she thinks she has time to get it perfect. And then recess comes and she doesn't get to go to recess because she didn't finish her work and she didn't finish her work because the critic told her it wasn't good enough. Okay, now let's just start growing that up. Grow it up and grow it up and grow it up. And then ones are always hearing the voices of whoever they're with

and the voice of the critic. And sometimes they've had the critic for so long that they're numb to that. So they get to a point where they cannot hear it and yet it gets them at the same time. So they're trying to please the critic and everybody else. And so perfection is what they seek because they don't know what else to seek. And that's perfection in thought and word indeed. And what they want from all of us is for us to show them in a way that they can believe that they're good. But if they

have to ask us if they're good, if we tell them that they're good, it doesn't count. So you have to get ahead of it. Can't send a text. It's too easy to dismiss. Can't send an email because there are too many to read. Y'all know if you answer somebody on email, they just email you right. Oh my God. The worst system ever. I would go back to just having a phone in a heartbeat. I know. There's no going back girl. I know, but then people who I think it would weed out 80%. I think that people who actually called us would be people who were actually invested

in us instead of just the emailing thing which anybody can do. This is off topic back to you. instead of just the emailing thing which anybody can do, this is off topic, back to you. I'm sorry, I brought it up if it's off topic. No, that was me. That was me. That's me too. But it's you and me for different reasons. So we'll talk about that later.

Okay. Mark that and we'll talk about that later. Mark it. Mark it. So once are the number that I would least want to be. Hmm. Because of the critic. But, if I had to have brain surgery,

I promise you, I would interview brain surgeons till I found a one. Hmm. Cool. Yeah, the only thing I can't do without more than my brain is my mouth. And they tell me they're connected. So I, you know, I got to talk because that's what I do that levels the playing ground. Otherwise, where are they going to stand? If you're not wrong about something and you're not wrong about something and you're not wrong about something, then I don't have a place to stand because I've got this voice to tell me

that I'm wrong all the time. Oh, geez. That sounds familiar, actually. Uh-oh. Are we having a number crisis here? We're waiting back in there. Okay. Did you see Glenn and Lick are lips like, yeah, I'm right. No, I have no further opinion. Okay, Amanda, we're going to come back to that. Because we all have that sometimes.

Okay. I will leave you with this regarding the Okay, Amanda, we're gonna come back to that because we all have that sometimes. Okay, okay. I will leave you with this regarding ones and threes. My guess is that when you're trying to get stuff done and get it done right the first time and make sure other people are doing their part right the first time, it's for efficiency, not for add girls. All right. So eight, nine, and one's make up the anger tried. So let's keep in mind that eights want to hear that they're not going to be portrayed.

Nines want to hear that their presence matters. One's want to hear that they're good. Eight orientation the time is the future. Eight orientation to time is the future. Nine orientation to time is the past. One orientation to time is the present moment. And eight anger is straight up and then it's over. Nine anger is passive aggressive. And one anger is expressed as resentment,

because ones turn their anger in on themselves first and then when they can't hold it anymore, it kind of just spews out and ones are very seldom angry with whomever or whatever they're angry about. All right, let's talk about two's three's and four. All right, let's talk about two reasons. Now we've moved into the feeling triad. Yes, we have. And Glennon, that's where you and I reside. Oh, and Amanda, we're all there. Sorry, Abby.

No problem. I bet it is no problem knowing how you like to do with feelings. No problem. That's her t-shirt, Suzanne. No problem. Lead back since way back and no problem. No feelings, no problem. She has feelings, she just has a half range.

All right, so here we are. Tuesdays and fours, this is a feeling disaster right here. All right, so for Tuesdays, they take in information first from the world with feeling and then they want to do something about it. The problem with that is that twos feel other people's feelings, not their own. Y'all don't know yet how much I adore my husband. I'm still so in love with him, I can hardly stand it. Oh my God. And I trust him with, there's nothing I don't trust him with.

Nothing. And he says to me this question from time to time, just tell me what you're feeling and we can handle this. And the answer is, I don't know. Second question, just tell me what you want. Tell me what you need and we can handle it. I don't know that is. I know what everybody else feels and I know what everybody else needs and I know it intuitively and if I don't do my work I spend my life taking care of them and going back home feeling, utilitarian,

and feeling like people take me for granted, and I slide down the wall crying and say, forget it. Nobody cares anymore. But when I'm healthy, I approach people with feelings, or I receive them as they approach me with their feelings and I think. Why am I engaging with this other person? That's first question. Second question. Is this mind to do? Third question. Does the other person even want my help?

Does the other person even want my help? Okay. Y'all, can we imagine in 72 years how many people I've helped who didn't want my help? It's astonishing when I think about it. I help people reach things in the grocery store. I help people who don't know me. One older woman I ran into at 72, I'm saying she's older, she's probably 95. And she's standing looking at all the cereal boxes. And she said, I, to remember when we used to only have

four cereals, I said, I do it was much easier. Wasn't it? And she said, yes. I thought about my mom at 92. I handed her a box of raisin brand. And I said, I think this would be perfect. I met her on the next aisle. And she had cornchecks in her back. Perfect example of somebody who didn't ask for and didn't want my help. I just happened to run across after I finish all of this and talk about what we have to bring up and why. But what you have to see about twos is that we're really good teachers and we're really good nurses and we're really good helpers.

In fact, we're called the giver and there's a reason for that. Except that we're terrible at taking care of ourselves and that's our work. I put a definition of self-care that's on some 10 thing that I ordered somewhere online because I don't even know what it is. And if you all said to me right now, tell me what self-care, what that definition is, I don't remember. I think it says something like,

I need to take care of me first. Maybe. And what I need to hear and believe is that I'm wanted. I want you so much. Me too, I'm so glad you came. I'm like pocket, me too. Working. Yes.

Thank you. I want you to. Three's. Make the world go round. Truth, yes. And here's why. Especially in our culture, we value youth, and efficiency, and effectiveness, and threes have it.

They have all of that, bundles and bundles and bundles of all of that. Your orientation of time is the future. So you look to the future, you plan for the future, you know what the future is gonna look like. And along with Abby and AIDS, you feel like you can change the future. That's astonishing.

So y'all go for it. And you think you can mold it into what you want it to be. Are you suggesting that's not true? Just hinting. I don't want to lose one of my hours, so I'm just hinting. Okay. So, the reality is with threes and sevens is that it's the the hardest for them to get on this journey toward growth by understanding how they see the world and how other people see the world because people don't want you to change. Oh, damn. They're good if the rest of us change. Yes.

But it messes with everybody's life if you change. Wow. That's right. And so when you start to do your work, some of which Ab Abby is in your book. When you start to do your work, people don't support that. Because they want good old happy seven. That's right. And when three start to do their work, here's your biggest gift, Amanda, and it's a big one. And you can learn to use it in moderation so you don't have to give it up. You're feeling repressed. And here's what that means. But all the magic is with you and feelings because you can read every room with two people

are two thousand and two and know how they feel. And then you don't use those feelings. You don't consider that when you decide what you're going to do and when and how you're going to do it. It's just something you know. So work I need to do or that's what I do. Well, the work you need to do is you got to bring up feelings. Okay. And what you do is you have a feeling and then you set it aside. Okay. Because it messes with efficiency and effectiveness. It's just messy.

It's not predictable. You have a plan. You made today's plan last night. And you have a plan for the day. And if feelings get all up in your plan, you don't like them and you don't know what to do with them. And so you set them aside with every intention of dealing with them later. Correct. But later don't come. It just doesn't come. Because I live in the future. That's right. And so there's the magic. It's magic in our culture of being

able to read the feelings in a room and then not use that reading to decide what you're going to do next. That is magic. And nobody who works with you, beside you, for you, wants that to change because that's what makes things happen. Hmm. So you got to learn to bring up feelings, and hold them, and consider what's happening in the room, while you effectively and efficiently keep moving forward. Hmm. And you have to trust your response to them,

instead of setting them aside, and not revisiting them. I got it. Well, you think what I have to do. I have to walk into a room and read everybody's feelings and just not respond. Okay, so her problem is that is it a a problem or good thing that she's reading everyone's energy and then not considering it when she makes her next decision. What does that look like in practice? It's a problem. Oh, it's a problem. And here's one's a problem. Okay, because we have three

native intelligences. We all have them. Okay, we all got them at birth. We've all got them. Thinking, feeling, and doing. Anygram try ads are determined by which one's dominant. Anygram's stances are determined by which one's repressed. And the other one supports the dominant. Okay. So there are three aggressive numbers, three, sevens and eights. And when we talk about eights, then we're talking about the fact that they have a feeling and it's passion.

Mm-hmm. And it covers things, supposedly. And when we get to sevens, we're gonna talk about a half range of feelings, the happy half. Mm, that's her. And when we are at threes, we're talking about,

I take in information with feelings. I just don't use that information to process those, what I'm gonna do next. Mm, so we're all practical or efficient. Can't use that. It's unwieldy. That's right. And so we are off balance anytime.

We're not using all three centers. And that's what the journey toward wholeness is about. OK. How am I going to manage my dominant center, which is my favorite? So Linna and Amanda and, which is my favorite. So, Linna and Amanda and me, feeling is our favorite. We love it the most. That's how we take in information.

And we then only use one other one. And so, Amanda as a three, after you take in information with feelings, then you set feelings aside, and then you're operating in the world like an eight does only inverse. Eight's are doing and then thinking. And you're using doing and thinking and doing and thinking.

And you're not using feeling. Huh, yeah, right? Uh huh. Yes. But it's like almost like a weird superpower that sister meta has because she gets the feeling she understands it. That's helping her make the decisions to the thinking and doing, but she's setting aside

the actual art and act of feeling. That's right. That's exactly right. Good job, baby. All right, so here this. So imagine I'm just at my house one day and Richard Rorkels. And he says, he's in. I'm going to teach in Italy this summer.

Would you like to come teach with me? So that's where you put the phone down. So nobody can hear and you jump up and down and scream, right? And then you come back to the phone and you say, I'd love to, I'll have to check my calendar. And he said, you're free. I checked. And I said, I'd love to. So we get there. And I teach a know your number the first day. Two people who speak 17 different languages from 21 different countries. Wow. Wow. That appalling a lot in the room who spoke eight languages. Oh my gosh. And then they,

gosh. Yeah, amazing. And then they had translators. So I teach, know your number and Richard is doing stuff for people who already know their number. They're exploring Francis and Claire's caves and stuff. So the next day we teach together. So here I am in Assisi, Italy, with my mentor and teacher and friend. And the plan is for the first period that he's going to teach and I'm going to respond. So he teaches and just imagine how prepared I am and prayed up like I got all the stuff going. I'm ready. Right.

And I stand up to respond and I do a pretty good job and they have translators in the back of the room, French and German. And I'm teaching and I have a good feel except for this one guy. And he's all folded up and looking kind of mean at me. And I see that he doesn't have headphones on. So I thought, less his heart, he doesn't speak English. So it comes down for the break and I come down the three steps off the platform. Go to him as fast as I can and you know what we do right when we think people don't speak. Our landing was just a talk louder. So I'm screaming at this guy. They have translators. German, French, they got translators.

And he lets it man says, I speaking. And I said, you do. And he said, obviously, I say, well, why don't you respond to anything I say? I, people respond when I teach. Why don't you respond to anything I say? And he said, I just don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like anything about you. And I turned to walk away and I thought, I'm never going to feel this small again. This is it right here. But it wasn't it because I hear Richard behind me. And he said, still going after the one, are you? He said, Suzanne, you had 209 people in your hand. And you are going after that guy. Amanda, you would never go after that guy. Oh.

Lennon, you would never go after that guy. I don't go after guys in general. You wouldn't have gone after this one. So do you see the gift that that is that we have in Therese? But in order to be numb to that guy, our to whatever is going to keep us from starting on time, our to whatever is going to keep the project from working, you have to numb yourself to other feelings as well. And so you have to learn to bring up feelings so that you can manage life with thinking and

feeling and doing. And nobody wants you to do things any differently than you're new. So, if you start feeling stuff, the people around you are going to say, what's happening? That's true. I think it's true. When she gets mad, I get so upset. When she feels sad, I feel so upset. Yeah. When she feels anything, I feel so upset.

Yes. Yeah. But it's weird because there's this thing that we want. I think that what we're saying to sister is like we just want Her to have the space to feel all the feelings. Yeah, but if your person's a three-year like we want you to have the full human experience Could you just make sure you're doing it between two and four on Sunday because that's when I don't need you That's it right there So for Abby for you it would been, we want you to have a

flow range of feelings. Just don't let it affect your game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That rings. That's true. All right, let's talk to the feeling quain for a little bit. Fours orientation time is the past. And that means that it's filled with longing, if only. If only that could have been, if only that hadn't happened, if only, if only. And fours and ones somehow believe that they arrived on the planet flawed in some way. Like, there's something wrong with me. And so all the numbers are associated with a passion or a sin.

We used to use the word sin, but so many people have been hurt by that word. Passion is also been used in ancient time, and I'm using that more now. Cool. Then I used to. And the passion for force is envy, but people don't know the difference in envy and jealousy. And so they think fours are jealous. Jealous is wanting what somebody else, their stuff, their position, that stuff. What fours envy is the comfort that the rest of us have in the world.

Oh yeah. Yes. They just want to be comfortable. Yeah. I say that all the time. And Abby's like, do you need a different sweater? Do you need whatever? And I'm like, no, on the earth.

Right. No, I need to be a different anyogram type. And you're never going to be. You were born this type, you are this type, you're going to be this type. So we all got to do our work to be the best of this type we can be. So what fours long for? And by the way, it's problematic because fours are comfortable with longing. And by the way, it's problematic because fours are comfortable with longing. It's a familiar feeling. And so what fours long for is the comfort that the rest of us seem to have out here in the world.

What they long for is the peace that we seem to have when we're just out doing stuff, when we're not worried about everything. And what they want more than anything is relationship. It's the thing. And they desire relationship from the time that they're little kids until their last breath. Relationships, relationship, relationship. And that doesn't mean with more people.

What it means is they desire to have relationships that they can count on that go deeper and deeper and deeper. And so, for as make the mistake of starting off trying to talk to people they met yesterday on the same level that they talk with people who they've known for five years. That is good. Yeah, but it leads people out really fast. But what if it leads out somebody that you want in your life? And so, fours have a lot of work to do. That's my t-shirt. A lot of work to do. And it's okay, because they want to do it.

Yeah. If you said who's gonna sign up to do the work, we need to do fours and be first in line. Not like helpful work to everyone else, but you're talking about in or self work. Yeah, right. Yeah. How can I have this normal, whatever that is thing that everybody has? And how can I walk around on the globe for a day or two and not feel like I'm flawed in some significant way? How can I have that? And so the way actually that you can have that is by bringing up doing, but I don't know if we're going to have time to talk about all that today.

Because that's where you like balance. See, I don't, I believe it or not with all this brilliance. I'm thinking repressed. So I figured out how to make my way in the world, just reading people's feelings and doing what they want. You did a really good job. The problem with not thinking is, it's about to do me in. I might have to make some decisions about who and what I'm supposed to care for. That's so interesting.

So the doing is my yes, that's what you have to bring up. Okay. And you don't like every day doing. No, no, no, doing the interesting things, shopping at the store where the fruit is beautiful, doing things that have texture and that are attractive to you and that you know you can kind of get into and that has dips to it in some way.

That's the doing you wanna do. But the bills have to be paid, the garage has to be cleaned out. Yeah, the cabinets have to be closed. The toothbrush has to be washed, but we're not interested in that. I have, no, Mike's the reason I think she's a one is because she says that. Yeah.

But she's saying that for a fish and sea reason. See, it's the motivation. It's inefficient to leave the cabinet doors open. Right. Because then when I get in there, I have to close them before I can do what I'm there to do. So what is the first motivation? Your motivation is your deep desire to be seen. That'd be nice.

And heard. That'd be cool. But your deepest desire is to be understood. Yes, that tracks. And you've done a lot of things to try to be understood. You are kind of screaming at the world saying, if you please don't understand me by now. Right, right.

That's it. It's like, I told you everything, except how often I clip my toenails because I just would like to be seen and heard and understood. Yeah. So do the other numbers not think there's something wrong with them? Like they're not on this quest, their whole life to figure out what is wrong with them. God, that was nice. And I think there are fewer fours than any other number.

And I think there are a lot of people who don't know a form. Richard Foster, a Quaker, wrote some books years ago about spiritual practices. They're very good to this minute. And I think I may, maybe I knew this, he said this in the early 80s. He said, and I don't do this kind of talk much, so don't get sidetracked by it, but he said, the new tools of the devil are muchness and mininess and noise and crowds and hurry. Okay, now let's add technology. So let's take the devil out for many for whom that doesn't track well and let's use distraction. The new tools that distract us from our lives are muchness and manyness, and noise and crowds and hurry and technology.

That leaves no space for a four. That's right. There's no space. So what you're looking for is a place to stand in a world that moves really fast. And when they say, how are you, they don't mean that. They mean hello. It's just another way to say, hey, y'all.

Yeah. Right? And for you and for me, when people say, how are you? What happens inside of us is how long do you have? Right? And for you, it's never long enough. Right. You cannot get people to slow down enough to understand you. They see you and they hear you and millions and millions and millions of people identify with you. But that's not the same thing as understanding. Are lots of force addicts? Is that a thing because it feels like force and sense. Force and sense. Oh, well, there you well there you go check check you're a hundred

percent right on this call but there are a hundred reasons why right so when I get sevens we'll talk about that one let's review for a minute. Tos are feeling dominant and they support feeling with doing Rees are feeling dominant, but they immediately set feelings aside because they're the core number of that tribe and They do life with just thinking and doing Fours are feeling dominant and they support feeling with thinking And so they feel and think and feel some more about what they think. And then they have more feelings about what they think about what they feel. And that is their world until they bring up doing and bring balance to their lives.

I was crying right now. She's laughing so. So let's have a one little minute time out and let's say this. I know that that everybody can't see us and won't, but they can hear us. But what nobody sees is all of the expressions of compassion that are visible from all four of us. And that's why I teach the anti-grang. Oh God, yeah. Because we need a more compassionate world. And the antigram hands it to you. Yes.

Once you know the antigram, you have no excuse for not recognizing that we're not all pretty much the same. We all take in information and process it in our own particular way. We all have gifts that the world needs and they're not the same. And we all have a responsibility to understand people who don't see the world the way we do. It's good. Beautiful. It's really good. And on that gorgeous note, Pod Squad, we're gonna pause right there and invite you back to continue this conversation tomorrow with our new best friend, Suzanne Stabil. Suzanne's gonna tell each of us more about why we are,

the way we are and why our people are the way they are. We'll hear everything about fives, sixes and sevens, and then we'll learn how to use the enneagram to deepen our relationships. Tomorrow Suzanne's going to share the best ways for Abby, sister, and me to love one another better in business and family based on our numbers. It's really beautiful. Just join us back here tomorrow. Bye! tomorrow. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe

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