We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 227. MEGAN RAPINOE: A Legend Says Goodbye to the Game

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Laser-focused on her final World Cup, MEGAN RAPINOE chooses our podcast to go *deep* on her bittersweet decision to retire from her iconic soccer career: Why she is excited – and ready – to say goodbye to soccer;  Why representing America is so important to her in this moment;  Why she doesn’t believe in sacrificing herself for the team;  How dissociation helped her on the field – and hurt her in life – and how she’s working to give it up.  Plus, Megan explores the question: Does greatness have to cost you your humanity? About Megan:  Two-time World Cup Champion and Olympic Gold Medalist, Megan Rapinoe is a fan favorite and one of the team’s most technical and craftiest players. A vocal leader on and off the pitch, Megan helped lead the USWNT to the 2019 Women’s World Cup Championship scoring some of the biggest goals of the tournament. Megan took home the tournament’s two top honors – the Golden Boot for top scorer, and the Golden Ball for the best player in the tournament. A New York Times’ Best-Selling author, Time100’s Most Influential People and recent Presidential Medal of Freedom award recipient, Megan is an advocate for equality for all and has been able to intersect her passion for humanity and authenticity. At the end of 2022, Megan and fiancé Sue Bird launched “A Touch More”, a new production company focused on promoting narratives around revolutionaries who move culture forward. The company will amplify stories focused on identity, activism, and underrepresented groups. TW: @mPinoe IG: @mrapinoe To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, Pads, what today we have the Megan Rapinoe, the Megan Rapinoe of the soccer. The Megan Rapinoe is the two-time World Cup champion and Olympic gold medalist. Megan is a vocal leader on and off the pitch. Megan helped lead the US women's national team to the 2019 Women's World Cup championship. Megan took home the tournament's two top honors, the Golden Boot for Top Score and the Golden Ball for the best player in the tournament.

And New York Times best-selling author, Time 100's most influential people and recent presidential medal of freedom award recipient. Megan is an advocate for equality for all. Megan and fiance Sue Bird, huge fans, launched a touch more, a production company focused on promoting narratives around revolutionaries who move culture forward, which is very fitting for these two. Megan, welcome to We Can Too. Heart Things. You have done a couple of them. Well done. I feel like we should just spend the next hour letting you rest, Megan. In honor of Megan,

we're just going to take an hour of quiet. Where she can just. I'm just gonna go lay down. I just talk about it. Well, happy belated birthday. Have you just celebrated? Thank you, thank you. And thank you for having me on. Appreciate it. What'd you do for your birthday? Well, I was in sports camp.

So they let me pick the meal menu. So that was a thrill. I got the obligatory banquet room birthday singing. It's actually Emily Fox and I share a birthday, which I'm to be honest thrilled by because I've had my birthday in this environment for like 84 years straight and I'm like, you know, like, guys, it's okay. I'm put it there, put it to someone else. It was good, overall good.

I mean, it's just sports camp birthday. It's the worst. It's the worst. It's the worst. It's the worst. Even Megan McPino gets the shitty office sheet cake birthday. Yes. That's what happens.

We did have churros. I'm also like the fourth birthday in the line of all of these birthdays that we had, like Alex had a birthday. Chris was a birthday. I had a birthday. Our window has like shifted a little bit because the world cups a little later this time. So normally like we would have like there's all these summer birthdays. So I'm kind of like at the end of this pack. And so it's like happy birthday. And I'm like, I know you guys, I didn't ask. I told you that's a thing. It's me, but then people are like, oh, you have to I know, I didn't ask. I told you it didn't have to sing. It's me, but then people are like,

I don't know, you have to hang up your birthday. So there was a candle stuffed into a choreo for, for Fox Anna. Could you worse than that? Yeah. Yes, are good. Yeah. So it was just fourth of July.

And our little family is, it's like in our kitchen, we live in a place where there's lots of happening, celebrations, people in red, white, and blue cowboy hats, just all over the place. And the kids and I and Abby are just having a bit of a surreal experience, which so many families have, and have had forever in the country, but kind of like, we're just confused about exactly what we're celebrating and for whom, because the idea of celebrating freedom and equality is not for our family, especially right now. I mean, especially forever, but the recent Supreme Court, it's just like

so in our face right now. And I just really want to ask you about what it means to you to represent America right now. Because especially right after such a public moment of regression, like how do you, a Megan Rapinoe, who is always on the side of equality and justice for all, what does it mean to you to go out on the pitch in red, white and blue? It means a lot to me to be able to do that, actually. I've always taken a, I'll be a probably a very different type of pride than we're used to

and seeing supporting the red, white, and blue and all the flag code violations that happened two days ago. But it means a lot to me because I also represent America. And I also represent our ideals and the things that we say that we want to be and, and frankly, things that we, like sort of, arrogantly claim to be. I represent gay America, and I represent women in America, and I represent, you know, allies of black people in America and immigrants in America. And that's how I represent. That's what I'm trying to represent when I pull on the shirt.

And I always really put it into the context of the team when I talk about it like this because it's hard to pull myself out of that from such a young age and being on the US and the national team for so long. And wearing the shirt for so long, representing the country abroad domestically, all of it. I try to leverage America against itself. And I think the team has been so successful whether sort of explicitly or implicitly leveraging America against itself because you do love coming and cheering for us. And you always have. And even when we were doing and saying and just being things,

that we don't always value in this country. Historically, we haven't valued. Obviously, the recent severe backslide and just the radical enthusiasm with which the Supreme Court is defending people's right to discriminate against people is just great. I think you're getting it wrong. I appreciate your fervor, but I think you might have it backwards. I'm pretty sure your job is the opposite. I think you're supposed to be radically defending people's rights, but whatever. Whatever.

Good idea, bad execution. Bad execution. I don't understand where this went wrong. But I think for me, that's what I always try to do is to not allow people to look away from all that is America, from who all America is, from all of the things. Like being a country that wants to have freedom and equality, and it doesn't mean we all have to believe the same thing, it doesn't mean we all have to be

the same thing. I don't need you to know exactly what my experience is to be able to understand it and to respect it. You can just believe me, and I can just believe you, and you can have your rights and I can have mine. So I feel like that is why it means a lot to me to represent the country and to represent voices that aren't heard or unable to be heard or don't quite have that platform and I think being able to leverage this platform that is the women's national team. Always have access to the media,

always have access to the fans, always have access to a public display of a particular kind of patriotism that I personally think is more in line with the words and the ideals that we have as a country. Is your hair a sign of your public display? Because I'll tell you, I did.

I said, all right, children, I'm going to go out with you into this Fourth of July, Houghton-Enny. But I'm wearing my pride shirts. It's like, I will be there, but I will have a signal that I am a safe place for anyone with a slightly uncomfortable with this America celebration. So I think of you in your uniform, but then your hair, which to me would be like, oh, but she's like not that

kind of America. She's on this side of America. Is that part of it? Are my making that shit up? No, I think it's all in there. I think there's a part of me that has just always had like a deep need to express myself and to be myself. It's not really so I can stand out from other people. This is just the way that I feel comfortable doing. This is the way that I like. This is, you know, from the way that I dress to tattoos that I have to my hair, to everything.

And I hope everybody feels that. I think that's the goal. Like, if you I have to my hair, to everything. And I hope everybody feels that. I think that's the goal. Like if you want to have curly hair, have it. If you want to have a ponytail, if you want to have to, like, it doesn't really matter. But I think just allowing people to space to do that. And I do think that me doing this as the person that I am, as a player that I am with the platform stature, whatever you want to call it, does like elbow out some room for some other people. And it's like, okay, I can see that.

I can understand that that's possible. I mean, the same with like crystal having box braids with blue in it. Or people wearing their hair in different types of ways. It's like, oh, that is possible. This wasn't always something that you could see on the national team. And so like a really explicit form of individuality,

I think is part of it. And there's just part of it. It's like, I think blue hair is cool. I think different color hair is cool. Like my hair is short, so there's not so much you can do with it. And it doesn't like really matter. It's just fun.

It's like not that serious, but I think there's sort of the balance to it where it's also like, no, I think a sort of radical form of self-expression acceptance for myself and other people is really important in the general conversation. It's kind of like the oxygen we breathe. I see a lot of people.

My tally of male athletes with colored hair now is really, I'm like, thank you guys, it's really, it's not an explicit thank you, but yeah, I'm like, you haven't like explicitly said that I was your inspiration, but it seems pretty similar. I do need a royalty from that. So thank you. Yeah.

All right, you've played in three world cups. This is your fourth fucking amazing, by the way. And I saw some videos of when you got the call from Blatko the FaceTime, and it was really interesting for me to watch you wait for him to tell you what was happening. Were you sweating it because it was that made up? Like how did that moment feel when Blatko told you

that you made the roster? Well to be honest I had some other things that I wanted to talk about some other questions I weren't really allowed to like be on the video So I was like are we gonna have this conversation or like what's happening? Yeah, like I want I want to like talk about some things and he was like Congratulations I mean, it's always like a moment where you sweat it a little bit. I mean, nothing's ever really like in stone.

You know that. Doesn't matter what your stature on the team is or any of that. I mean, I had a pretty good sense that I was going to be on the team and then put myself in a position to earn that spot. And it's always like nerve-racking. You just don't know, it's like what's he gonna say? What am I gonna say?

You kinda like know what's being filmed, so then there's that part of it, but I have other questions to ask because I wanna get into, I can't really be on the film. So it was kind of a funny sort of like tempered moment. You know, because I've talked a lot about my 2015 experience. Do you know what your role is going to be for this World Cup?

Have you had those conversations with the coaches? Because I know that it was like the hardest tournament I've ever played coming off the bench. And also maybe the most rewarding in a weird kind of backwards way. Have you had those discussions about what your role might be this World Cup? Mm-hmm. Yeah, Black O and I have had these discussions like frankly for a long time really like since the Olympics. I think after the Olympics it was like okay what is it really going forward? I wasn't going to be able to be on the team if I was expecting my role to be the same

if I was expecting certain things. I think just like realistically and being honest with myself, like physically there's limitations at 38 that I didn't have at 35 or at, you know, 30. So I think just being honest about that for myself was really important first and foremost so I could then be honest with Lacco about that and him being able to be honest, I mean, it's uncomfortable to talk to an older player, especially a player like myself and be like, listen, like you're not gonna be playing 90 minutes. Like, physically I just don't think you can do that.

What if I like, rebut that when it's kind of obvious that that is actually true. And I think our conversations were like, I think I still have a lot to bring on the field. For sure. Being able to bring a player like me off the bench is pretty rare. Usually you're bringing a young and experienced player off the bench that has a lot of spunk and energy and all that, but when you get into these tight games in the biggest moments,

it's being composed, it's being poised, it's having that experience, especially offensively. If we need goals, if we need goal creation, if we need creativity, if we need someone to do something a little bit different, I think I can really bring that and be very effective. And then I think the conversation a lot was centered around like off the field. Is this something you want to do? I don't think this is a role for everyone. I don't think every athlete, and this is not a knock on any other athletes, but I don't think it's for every athlete who's been really elite and been in that starting position and been one of the best to do this. I don't think everyone, I don't think it's good for everyone. I don't

think everyone even really wants to do that. And for me, it is something that I really want to do. To your point, Abby it is something that I really want to do. To your point, Abby, I find a lot of joy. And it's really rewarding to take care of the team in a different way. And to just open up the knowledge, if I could open up my brain and put it in as somebody else's body, I would do that. And I want to do that.

And I think it's still really impactful. And I find a lot of Meaning and joy and I think my sort of thought process was like if I can change into this different role Like I have the opportunity to still go to another world cup and be really impactful and still get to play at a really High level which I think that I can do but also couple it with something that's really unique And I think can be really helpful for us going forward, whether on the field or not. Those moments are crazy and half time in the locker room and in between games, if you're not playing well, if you're playing well, players coming in and out of the lineup, I've seen

damn near most of everything that could happen during a World Cup and during these major tournaments. Just being able to have the pulse of the team like that. I mean, I think particularly now with Becky being out, I think it's going to be really important for those of us who have been there to provide that experience and just like provide that calm for a lot of players. Hi, it's Elise Loonon, the New York Times' best-selling author of Honor Best Behavior,

and the host of the podcast Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread. I'm joined in conversation by those who can help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming. My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seas of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow. Listen and follow Pulling the Thread, an Odyssey Podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever

you get your podcasts. Megan, that reminds me of something that I heard you say that kind of blew my mind in terms of all of the ecosystems that I'm a part of, which is you were talking about teamwork and how it's often presented like that's this independent characteristic that people might have and we tend to valorize the ability to be a team player and sort of weirdly villainized the people who embody individuality, and you were presenting it in a wholly different way about how being a sacrificial team

player is not an independent goal. It's just a natural consequence of being truly seen in the full complexity of your individuality. Can you please share about that? Because I think that affects everything and I've never thought of it that way. Yeah, I don't like at all. And I think it's actually really harmful,

the narrative in sports that you got to sacrifice it all for the team. And that's what's going to make you successful. I don't subscribe or believe in that at all. And in all my experience and all the teams that I've been on and all the successful championship teams, the more people individually are able to be their full selves, the more they will give to the team, the more they can provide for the team and the better the team is. Holistically, like from an emotional health standpoint, from a mental health standpoint, from physical,

like everything, we're not the same. There's nobody like me. There's nobody like Alex. There's nobody like Trinity. There's nobody like Andy Sullivan. Like we're not the same. And everybody knows that. So whether you just like try to fit that or not deep down, you know that. And I think

what we know about humans, we want to be seen. We understand that we're individuals. We understand that we're one of one and very unique. And so the more you like suppress that and keep that down, the less you're getting from that person. So I feel like we have to let people be themselves in the context of buying into this as a team sport. You don't always get to do everything that you want or have the role that you want or have everything perfectly designed for you but you get to choose whether you want that or not. Like I got to choose whether this was a role that I was gonna be buying into or not,

like it didn't make me do this, but he was like, you get to be your full self, and this is what I want and need from you. Do you wanna do that? And I think having all players do that where you actually do really feel seeing, because it gets really hard, and not everybody is gonna get to have the World Cup that they dreamed about.

We got 11 starters and five subs, and that's it, each game. So not everybody's going to get to play. Not everybody's going to be consistently a rotation player. Some players might start and get pulled. It might be the opposite. You don't always get to choose that. You don't always get to have the perfect World Cup. But when you leave space for people to feel how they feel,

and to be there full-cells, and some people are more quiet, and some people are louder, and some people are funny, and some people like to dance, and whatever it may be, you get the sort of, you know, the sum of our parts is greater than each of us individually. And now you have something special. That's a team to me, where you get to bring everybody's full self and add it all up is better than any individual could do on their own.

So that's kind of how I think about teamwork. And I think growing up on the team for whatever reason this was happening, I think, before I got there. I mean, we've had to like box out a little bit and, you know, take space for ourselves as we always do, but that was always something that I felt was there on the team, the sort of individuality, but also like a ruthless team mentality

that like, yeah, you can be yourself, but like, yeah, you're gonna commit to this team. And anything less than that is not the vibes here. I love it because sometimes if you have a, quote unquote, team work culture problem, you think, oh, the problem is those people are team players, where with you presenting it like this, it's, oh, in fact, maybe do we need to do some work so that these people feel truly seen so that they can be the team

players, that they will be the team players, that they will want to be when they believe that you see their individuality. If you couldn't have blue hair on that team, you probably wouldn't feel like a team player because you couldn't be yourself. Right, it's like a family. Yeah, I love that.

It's the idea, the team version of held and and free right? It's like in so many places We have to either choose our individuality or choose our belonging, but we don't get to have both And so when you can figure out the balance of that where people in a family or on a team can feel both held and free because it's not just rugged Individuality versus the the good of the the whole it's there's like a boathness and maybe that's part of the Freakin magic of the national team. It is. Like, what is it? Is it that? It is. I actually believe that that the priority of each player on being their full self and also prioritizing the value of the whole. Like, those are both equally important. And that is something. I mean, all of the companies in the world are dying to figure out this metric.

Yeah, they're trying to figure this out. It's like, all they ask me about it. And I tell them, like, the deal is, and I sat on a panel with Mia a long time ago. And I was kind of making fun of myself. I was like, dog in my slowness. I was not the fastest player of the team. And she like, she shut me up.

She's like, no, Abby, don't do that. Like, don't minimize your weaknesses because where your weaknesses were is where I was able to step in and we were actually able to form a really unbreakable unit. And that is individuality and then all being able to come together to create an unstoppable whole team. It's cool. And if you can figure out how to monetize it, Megan, let me know. Yeah, I know. Because the corporate world is looking for it. Yeah, I know. It's like, you let people feel appreciated. Sort of going back to I say, like, not everybody gets to start every game and do all the things. And like, if all you're ever thinking is like, I'm not enough in this. I'm not enough in

this. And I'm not enough in this. But then people are telling you, it takes all 23 to win the World Cup. It's like, oh, it takes all of me except the parts that you don't want, except the parts that you don't like. It's like, we all just are ourselves. We can't change who we are. So I feel like when you really fully appreciate the different aspects,

and like some people do different roles for the team. Some people are not gonna play a minute and be really important to the vibe of the team or the emotional health or keeping things steady or whatever. Everybody has a really important role to play and to make people feel appreciated in that is really important.

I mean, that goes back to the beginning of our conversation about the country. That's the left outness of sitting in your house on the 4th of July and thinking, wait, so I'm supposed to celebrate belonging right now, but I don't feel like doing teamwork because my individuality has not been honored and seen. So that's the challenge that we have right now.

So we need to, like, just the national team to go to the Supreme Court. So making it to be like that. You don't have to do a straight no-dose. Do a switch out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, not all of do a, do a switch out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, not all of them. Right.

Right. Exactly. Yeah, they got benches there. A beautiful and benches like we're good. So Megan, you have just announced that you're retiring, which they should really just called graduating with you people. Like retiring doesn't seem like the right word because when that was next is always so freaking amazing. That's incredible. How are you feeling?

I feel really good about it. I'm sure it hasn't like, you know, totally, totally sunk in because obviously still have this woke up in the rest of this NWCL season, but I've been thinking about this for like three or four years to be honest, but really seriously for like a year. And I think I've had like this beautiful experience of watching Sue go through everything right before my eyes

and being able to process with her and just see her go through this journey and also what it looks like when you do retire. I'm like that's a that I might have to grow some curls out or something because this is working for you honey. Wow. But I feel I feel really like good about it. I feel as excited to play in this world cup and to finish this NWCEL season as I do to be done. And I think it comes from a place of being really grateful to be able to go out like this, being really grateful to my body, to my team in Seattle and obviously Laura, who's just been like,

and just an incredible influence on my career. I'm not the player that I am, the person that I am without her being really grateful to Vlacco and the national team and still being able to play a big part here. And I think just being able to kind of go out sort of in the way that I want, and on my own terms, it's very rare for an athlete, I think. It doesn't matter what level you're at or how good you are or what you've done in your career.

It's just really rare. There's a lot of things that have to line up. And so I think I feel really lucky. In that sense, to be able to do this, and it just feels good. And I'm also like, OK, it's, it's time. This is the sports are a lot. It takes a mind

body soul and spiritual commitment and just like a full on experience. And I think as you get older, you understand that. And so you know where sometimes your commitment isn't there or the things you just like know too much and I feel like I'm I'm ready to start a new chapter and to do other things like I'm really excited to be able to have time and space to Go on vacation in the summer. I'm taking a summer vacation

20 years It's a crazy stuff like that. It's a crazy stuff. We're hanging up with you and going to a lake. Yeah. That sounds perfect. I feel really settled. I feel really settled. What is your relationship to stillness?

Like we talked a lot about this after with Abby's retirement. Because of the go-go-go-ness. You work hard, you celebrate hard, it's just like hard, hard. It feels so hard. You're all flat. It is hard. It is hard. I know you're not going to stop and that's what I mean.

I don't mean that, but I mean in terms of rest and quiet. Do you have that in your life right now and do you have versions of that that you're looking forward to? now and do you have versions of that that you're looking forward to? Yeah, my relationship to rest and stillness is young and growing and I'm like and imaginary. I don't even know if middle schools are as probably more like kindergarten. I'm starting to understand that better. I'm starting to really understand myself a lot better. I've been in therapy the last year, really for the first time.

And I feel like this is sort of a transitional phase in life around this age. It's gonna be a really big adjustment to not be on a schedule. Like I am basically like a toddler on a schedule. And when I get off the schedule, for one or two days, I'm crazy. And it just drives me crazy.

So I've seen this with Sue too, just having to navigate working out and being healthy and balanced. There's gonna have to be a recreation or a new creation of balance and what feels good and how to sort of occupy my time. I've made a real concerted effort over the last two years

to really be, try to be as thoughtful as possible about all that I'm doing. Before 2019, it was just like, things were changing very quickly and a lot more money was able to be made and I wanted to do that. So it was kind of like things that you just wouldn't say no to. Of course, I'm going to do that. Like I want to make more money and I need to make more money. Like we're not making really

enough money to be like set and settled for life. And then of course, after 2019, like that that changed dramatically. But then it was all so much it was like drinking out of a fire hose. So it was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And literally just like burning myself to the ground. And I kind of like switched the structure of my business up. I hired someone full-time Jessica, who's just like incredible and helps me do all the things. She's like, you don't have to say yes to everything. And I think just having that permission

and being a lot more thoughtful about where I spend my time and what I spend my time doing in the partnerships, I think has been sort of slowly laying the groundwork for stepping into this next phase where I want to be really thoughtful. I have given up so much of my life. And the reward has been there, of course. I would never change anything.

And being a professional athlete at this level is incredible. But you give up a lot. You give up almost all your autonomy in a real sense. I mean, our schedule is what it is. Even vacations, it's like, well, I'm going on vacation at this time because this is the time you go on vacation. Like, this is the time you do it. This is the time you go out to dinner.

This is the time you don't. This is the time you could be more relaxed. This is the time you go on vacation. Like, this is the time you do it. This is the time you go out to dinner. This is the time you don't. This is the time you could be more relaxed. This is the time you don't. So I think that is gonna be a little bit more difficult to find that balance again, but I want to also like live my life. And like, what do I want to do? What do I like to do?

What are the things that make me happy? Where do I want to spend my time? I think especially in a business sense, I've been really lucky to be very successful and make a lot of money, so I don't have to run myself ragged. I can be pretty picky and choosy and be really impactful and sort of lining up the why of things with things that make sense financially. And just rest easy a little bit also. I think that first of all, I feel really happy for you that you are being proactive about this transition period of your life. I wasn't.

What made you want to get into therapy? And are you learning things about yourself that are surprising you? Are you trying to help build towards something in terms of your future and in retirement? Oh my God, I'm learning everything about myself. I feel like when you first got a therapy, you're like, oh yeah, I'm cool. I thought I was all good. Everything was cool.

I was like, if I can make it through, the last, however many years, and be great, I'm sure it'll add to my life in some kind of way. And I was like, oh my god, you don't know anything. It gets worse before it gets better. Shokes on me. I don't know anything. I even just looked back to 2019 and all that happened in that tournament in the

president of the United States literally hate tweeting our team and me personally and me just being like generally unfazed by it. I'm like, we had this conversation, Megan. Yeah. I was like, babe, the president of the United States hate tweet at her. Abby's like, she was fine. She was like, whatever.

I'm like, no one's like whatever. Yeah. Jin just leaked Twitter when she was like laying into bed in the fetal position for a week. The president of this country, on the day that she was representing this country in the most important game, which by the way, all the searing eyes of pay equity were on her like, well, I hope you prove your worth it. Oh, NBG, she's just out there doing it. So did you

just there if this want to talk to you a little bit about that time? I will imagine. Yeah, turns out, I have a very, which probably was adaptive at one point, but maladaptive trait of dissociation. I think I'm really good at it. And I was really good at it. Now it's becoming a lot harder, and now that I'm aware of it. But it's like I grew up kind of in a lot of chaos.

There's a lot of kids, Rachel and I are the youngest of kids. I've, you know, spoke really openly about my brother's struggle with addiction and the effect that that had on the family. So I think that's how I learned to deal with chaos. I'm a joyful person. I'm, I think, generally really happy. And I think I kind of approach life that way, but there is actually a balance to that. Everything has a balance.

As joyful as I am. This is what I'm discovering. There's pain and there's sorrow and there's avoidance and there's you know childhood trauma that we all have. We all just sort of learn how to operate before we really understand. And then that operating system just runs in the background until you really, I think it was Brunei Brown, is the armor is not serving us anymore. And so I think that was really like the impetus of all of that. I was struggling with retirement

and just like finding a joy for things and a joy for soccer, but also just kind of like in general life, it just felt like I'd reached this ceiling in the face that I was in and I was like, well, there's gotta be something more going on here. So I think it was more just like, okay, I'm realizing that I want more for myself. I want more, I want to understand myself better, like the math. Is it really a math thing? And I don't really know why. I think at the time,

it's like, I don't really know why the math's not mathing and I don't really understand it, but I think something's got gotta be going on here. So it's been so challenging, like so much stuff in the beginning, I'm like, what does that even mean? This makes no sense at all. And I'm trying to be on board with it, but I just really don't get it.

And then over time, it starts to have these kind of like light bulb moments, but I think it's just given me a space to be really open and honest about things that I wasn't even understanding myself. Some things I feel like I wasn't even avoiding because I didn't even know was there. It was unconscious avoiding, yeah. Yeah, and so, yeah, I'm so thankful for therapists in general. And it's been really healing. And I think just, it's been really good,

I think, in the context of like going into this last year. I think it's really validating in ways too, because we've been in this life for so long, ever you know, and like you just sort of accept things for how they are when actually they're insane. Sports are insane. This is like a landscaper on sports are insane, and they're not always really progressive, and they're not always really high level. This is like a landscape around sports are insane, and they're not always really progressive,

and they're not always really high level. It's weird because women's sports is really progressive in this way, but then the environments of sports and the power dynamics and everything, it's just really strange, and you're kind of stuck at this age all the time. I just feel like I'm constantly trying to break out

and be an adult and be the 38 year old that I am, but it's like, I'm not. I'm in sports camp right now and somebody sends me my schedule and cooks my food and does my laundry and do all the things. So I think just validating and that, yeah, this doesn't really totally make sense. And this is pretty wild and also obviously moving into the next phase of my life, things that I'm scared of or things that I have stress about or ways that I wanna be closer to people. I mean, so much of our life takes us away

from really deep and meaningful relationships and more intimate relationships and understanding ourself better because we're kind of just like always hovering in this environment that is really difficult to drop down into deeper emotions with. The thing that I realize the most in my retirement and the thing that I wish for you more than anything

is a calming of your central nervous system. Because no matter who you are, if you are in a professional sporting environment, you are always at a heightened or activated nervous system. And it took me like two years for me to realize that that was even a thing, and that it was something I was recovering from. It was like this, always you're like either fighting,

fighting or fawning, but your nervous system is activated. So just notice in the coming years, all I think now is that was a really fucking crazy time. She said it once a day, Megan. She's on the couch. And the beauty is, if you're just doing nothing, I mean, she three times a day is like, I love my life so much. And she's just like sitting on the couch.

So much. I'm not thinking about like, oh, I gotta go go, I got to go for a run because I got to leave in three days. And then I got to be gone for three weeks. It's so wonderful. I'm so excited for you. It's so wonderful. Yeah, the constant metronome of stupid stuff is just like the guilt and the all of that. It's the worst. And do you think that you, maybe this is not true, but do you have to keep some kind of level of intimacy with your relationships Not there because you could be called away from things at any point if you can't really sink into a moment because you're always thinking of something else Can you not really sink into your relationships because are you always closed off a little bit?

Well, I was like that. I don't know what about you. I think it's just really What about you? I think it's just really difficult because you're not ever in a place really long enough to sink in. Even for yourself. I mean, we have homes, but you know, how often are you there? We're sort of transient. Like, I've been lucky to play in Seattle for, you know, 10, I think this is 11 years now. That is not the case with most people. I have a lot of friends, I swear, but like they're just all over the place.

I just can't find them. Yeah, you don't have like a sense of chosen community. You kind of have like all these people that are always around in this really intimate environment, but it's actually not very intimate. There's not a depth to the relationship at all in a lot of ways. And you might be lucky as a player to find a few along the way. I know I have found a few and then I've played longer than a lot of my friends and my contemporaries. So now it's kind of like gone back to the opposite of

our it's like, what is happening? Where is everybody? They're all gone. So it's hard to like keep up that relationship and have that consistency and that safe place to really like drop down into those intimate relationships with yourself and feel comfortable with someone else because we're always moving and there's always the threat of moving as you were saying.

And I imagine that the dissociative superpower that serves you so well in what you do so excellently on the field has to have some kind of consequence off the field for you. How does that show up? And do you think you're ever going to be able to get over that until you finish needing it in soccer? That's a good question. That's a really good question. I think as I've been learning about it,

it's making soccer more difficult for me. It's being aware that I'm dissociating, now like takes the power of the association away, which is really frustrating at times. So like just get me out of here. Well, I don't think Biden's gonna hate to eat you right this way. No, I think you're okay.

No, no, no. Pajos is not gonna hate to eat me. But just in general, kind of on a day to day, I think so much of the dissociation is like, you're around people all the time. And to Abby's point, you're in this like, this stress response really all the time, because the time. And to Abby's point, you're in this like this stress response really all the time because the time you wake up, the time you go to sleep, you're checking the schedule. At any moment,

your boss could just call you and be like, hey, are you free for a meeting? I mean, that's weird. I'm in my bed. I'm like, I'm not a doctor. You're just in this hotel with all these people. So, you're just in this hotel with all these people. So I think some of it is to, you know, almost like protect against that. Like you can't be open and present with that many people in this kind of environment all the time from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Like that is not healthy and that is, it's really difficult to do.

Like in some sort of way, whether you dissociate or do something else, like your body's gonna Go somewhere because your body's like what's going on? This isn't sustainable for us even in a day But I do think that I will be able to like heal from this because it hasn't served me in my personal life or like in myself Really we talk about the relationships with other people, but I don't even know so much about myself.

I don't have a depth of knowledge or understanding about myself in the way that I want to. Like, what do I really feel about what happened in 2019? What do I really feel about, you know, even before that? I think kneeling was a really big moment as well. I'm not immune to the reaction that I got both good and bad. I'm not immune to almost like being two people. You know, they're sort of like Megan Rapinoe. And then there's me and I have my inner life. And I think so much of the association has been to avoid the inner life and just keep

going. And I'm a joyful person. And I didn't even really realize how much I was not listening or not understanding myself for feeling the things that I have. And I want to feel those things now. It's kind of like the expiration date came up in that phase of my life. And whether I wanted it or not, it's here. And you don't really get to choose when those moments happen. I mean, I think you get to choose

what you want to do about them. And I, you know, I want to understand it more. I don't want to be sort of floating above what is like my real life. It's so beautiful. Dude, I'm so fucking happy for you. That is awesome. And aren't our bodies so amazing?

Our selves are so amazing. You did what you needed to do. Your body created the system because you were like, all right, we're going to be great. We're going to be the greatest. Your body's like, well, fuck, well, if we're going to be the greatest, we're going to have to do this thing,

right? Mount up. The only way we can get through this. So your body created this incredible strategy, dissociation, it's like the video game of life, you're like, okay, I'm gonna level up now. And now, but in order to level up,

then that dissociation has to go away. You're just in this wild time where you need both. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I need both. And the old operating system isn't really working, how it used to work, so I can't really access that, but I'm in the process of building the new ones. And then I'm in this in-between where I'm like,

what do I do? I don't know what to do. And it's like learning how to ride that wave and learning how to be in that uncertainty is so uncomfortable. My mind just feels like so blown because I just have assumed that we all have to be that way until you're done and that's it.

Like what you're teaching some of these younger kids about the need to do this kind of personal work throughout a career. Like I kind of think like a Sophia Smith, Alissa Thompson, these women might even be able to do greater things than you or I ever could have imagined because of their complete embodiment. Listen, it's what we are just talking about. If the Rapinoe theory is true about teamwork and the extent to which you are able to show the complexity of your individuality is the ceiling for how

much actual teamwork you can have, then it stands to reason that your ability to be integrated in your complexity and not disassociate would lift the team. Is it possible? This is what Abbie and I talk about a lot. Is it possible to be fully human and absolutely great at something? Or does greatness cost you your humanity in some ways because do you know that Megan is there some future version of humans like are you part of it right now and like these kids in the future are going to be able to do both

or is it just no that's the place that's the order to be this great you have to shut down this part of your life. I don't know. I really don't know the answer to that. I mean, I have to believe that learning emotional intelligence and learning yourself and sort of rewiring your system

from when you were young and from such a younger age has to be beneficial like yes our bodies Designed these strategies to sort of get us through but then they pretty quickly become very maladaptive and they aren't very useful anymore and I think just being able to have the choice, I mean, some things in sports, in particular, you're going to have to just suck it up and you got to be around all these people all the time. Everybody's going to get along, not everybody's going to, you know, vibe with the personalities or have the same ideas about what is going on. But so much of that just like isn't a thing that

people choose and it's just like, this is what it is, then this is what you're doing. Figure it out. I have to believe that if we can all even just go into that being like, I know this is what it is, and this isn't what I would choose, but I accept that. That that is a better path forward than just having a shove down your throat. I just don't think that that just can't be the way. That just can't be the way.

Okay, we know what it's not. I think that yeah, I think there is a path forward, and I think particularly with people starting to talk about mental health much more and talk about therapy and to hopefully understand themselves more and for us to have a more expansive idea around sports environments and teamwork and all of that to be in a much more

like progressive environment in that way, I just have to believe that there's space for that to be even better than what we have. It can't just be the same thing all the time. That makes no sense. I think it also, everything you're saying applies maybe to a lesser extent, but to family units. When you're saying, we're kind of thrown into this and we're like, well, this is normal, I guess. And then we don't realize till 20 years later that it's completely wacky. Well, that just described like 85% of the families in the world. So just the ability to be like, I see how we do this. And I'm part of this unit. And I guess we're going to keep doing this. But this doesn't feel good to me, or I wish it were different. Even that level of awareness of yourself has got to help.

I see it even the way that the moms are in this environment are raising their kids. A kid will have a big emotion. Instead of being like, oh, you know, want to be like yelling in the mail room, it's like, oh, we're having a big emotion. It's okay. Like, you're teaching the child that it's like, oh, we're having a big emotion. It's okay. Like, you're teaching the child that it's okay

to feel your emotions, it's okay to have them because we all have them. It's not like you can either have emotions or you can't, we obviously know we all have them. So, even just like seeing that, I feel like, has changed in a lot of ways. Just my perspective on things. I'm like, yeah, it is okay to have a big emotion.

Yeah. I'm maybe mature enough, it is okay to have a big emotion. Yeah. And maybe mature enough to like handle in a different way than Marcel and Charlie are. And I'm gonna do my best to do that. But, you know, providing spaces like the kids are boxing out space for us also. I love the feeling back. I also wanted to tantrum in the mail room.

Yeah. So I said to Marcel, I just want to kind of circle back, because I just want to discuss really quickly, like how are you feeling going into this final world cup? You're already there. How do you see this tournament going? Do you expect to win? Are you gonna be miserable for the rest of your life

if you lose? No, she's not. No, I'm not gonna be miserable for the rest of my life if you lose. No, she's not. No, I'm not going to be miserable for the rest of my life if I lose. I mean, the sting doesn't go away as you know. I still think about 2011 a lot. I'm like, damn. We should have won that one.

But it's OK. That's life. I do expect us to win. I think every player going into the tournament should expect their team to win. Otherwise, why are you even going? You're not going to just like hope you do pretty well and think you'll get to a certain stage.

I not only want to win, but I think we definitely have the team to win. I mean, our team is so talented and so dynamic in so many different ways. I feel really good about our team and the vibe. I mean, I think as an older player, you can't help but know all the things that you know. And so there's a lot more like anxiety, I think.

I'm like, what about this? What about this? What about this? You just can't prepare for everything. It's so much better, like having a little bit of experience, but not all experience sometimes. It's so much better, like having a little bit of experience, but not all the experience sometimes. I can just be in that. It'll be like, this is great,

but I know what I'm doing and feel confident in that way. So I think I have a little bit more of the kind of like ticker in my head of like this, this, this, this, this. But I also know that that's because I'm older. And there's things that are just out of my control. But I'm so excited. Also, I think I'm so excited for our team. It's such an interesting group.

There's so many players who have so much experience and so many players who don't. And so I think that's a really good mix. But they also have this experience of playing in the league and being game and game out consistent and having their teams rely on them. So in a way, they have a lot more experience than we did having no experience,

you know, in my first or second one. And the tournament's just gonna be incredible. Every women's world cup is just so much better than the last one. This one feels really special. I feel like it's like a welcoming of everybody who's been so late to the party for so long. And I'm just gonna try not to be petty, but I am petty.

I don't feel like it's our opportunity to display to the world how, how amazing our sport is. It's the opposite. Like we've been here, been doing this, been saying this. It's your opportunity now to come and watch and to be a little regretful that maybe this is the first time that you're showing up and just coming to it. But I'm really excited from like just a general perspective for the women's game and women's sports system general, but I think from our team, I just, I love our group and I think we're

really dynamic and I think we have an amazing opportunity to do something really special. Now that you're going to not be dissociated, what moments are you most looking forward to during the tournament that you're determined to stay present for? Maybe some of the harder moments. I think that's where I can really use a lot of experience that I have. Even just in my body, I've been in those moments. I know those stressful moments. I know the halftime feel when you're playing like shit and you're just like, this is not going well. I feel like some of those moments, I think, I can really show up for the team and be really helpful and provide something different. Certainly the most joyous moments.

I generally don't have an issue celebrating the joyous moments. I do love them so much, but I think this is just gonna mean, something different and really like soaking it all in and just realizing like how very special, even just the littlest, someone scoring a goal, being on the field, again, winning a game, all of

these little games that we play are so important, obviously, hopefully leading up to the biggest one. I think just the existential grand or moment of this being my last World Cup and understanding the difference of where I started to where we are now. Just me as a person that growth, how much the team has grown, where the sport is. Like our team and our generation of players have left like an adorable mark on the sport and I'm really, really proud of that.

It took a lot and it took a lot of work and it took something really unique and special all of us working together in the way that we did to leave our mark in this way. And so I think that moment will be really special of being able to to know like in my bones that the game isn't such a beautiful place as I walk away and that our team has been a really important part of that. And I just want to say one thing before before we end. I've been asked over the last year since the equal pay settlement with US soccer has been finalized. And I've been asked a lot of questions about it.

And honestly, Megan, I know it was a team effort. I know you did a shit ton of work and you spend a lot of money and you had to have a lot of meetings. And you had to come to to consensus on a lot as that went down. But I feel like if I could boil it down to like one thing, it would be that you had a bravery that no other team had, that no other women's national team had. Yes, we were brave for the time. We pushed it along as far as we possibly could, but you had this kind of audacious bravery.

It makes me emotional in a lot of ways. I was a part of the class. That was a surprise to me. I didn't realize that I was a part of the class until I got an email and then a check. And so like, thank you so much for that. And I know that you've been leading the charge in the bravery department for this team for many, many years.

And I hope that you keep doing that throughout this tournament. I wish nothing more than another World Cup championship for you. You deserve that. And to walk off into the sunset, having hopefully 10 retirement games. I don't know what the contracts are anymore,

but I want that so bad for you. And I love you so much. And I just, you are the fucking bomb. You're the best. Megan, thank you. Thank you. Ocean Wong was on here last year, and he said about masculinity that his calling

is to stay and complicate in terms of masculinity. And I feel that way about people in Christianity or in so many different spaces that my favorite people, the warriors of the places are the ones who stay in complicate. And in terms of patriotism, that you are the example of that. Yeah. And I'm really grateful for it.

I'm really grateful to be able to look forward to this World Cup and see a symbol of America that includes, that's what you've been. And we just can't wait. Thanks for doing so many hard things. Thank you so much for all those words. It's so sweet. I really appreciate that. Bye Pod Squad. Go watch us on the sports. Go to the sports. Go to the ball. Bring it home, Peanuts. Okay. Bring it home. Bye, bud. Let's go. It's right. Oh, it's so good.

Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page

on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. Why you're there if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend who would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios.