We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 23. Lightning Love & Not Calming Down

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

1. Amanda presents a case for “summer rain” love—and rejects “lightning love” as the highest form of romantic love. 2. Glennon’s theory for when to speak up and when to shut up. 3. How Abby’s experience in a mostly male meeting showed her that “silent solidarity” is a cowardly lie. 4. The trick Glennon uses to communicate with highly sensitive kiddos. (Abby swears it works every time.)

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. How are you doing, Amanda and Abby? Hi. Amazing. Amazing. Ish. Ish, as usual. I was trying to think of a word that would sound good. I have a perfect life with my wife. So I have a perfect life. I do not have a perfect life. That's because you don't have a wife. That's because you don't have a wife in every day. Right. Come on over to our side, Sissy. Every woman needs a wife. Okay. What you do have is 10 years of marriage under your belt.

This week was your... This week at all. I do deserve that clap. Abby, I thank you very much for it. Yes, we just had our 10-year anniversary this weekend. How was it? My favorite part was the day before your anniversary when we were on a our morning meeting with Dina and Alice in our team.

And Dina said, sister, she looked at her notes and she said, sister, I do need to remind you that tomorrow is your anniversary. We're so, John and I are so bad at those things. And we just, a couple years we've woken up that morning and been like, oh, oh, or like the next day, it was our anniversary. Yeah, you're like, this date feels familiar, but I can't put my finger on it. It feels like we owe a lot of money. to this date. Yes. So yes, but we actually, it was 10 years. So John was very sweet and he planned

this fancy dinner at this place like 45 minutes away and got all the reservations. And an hour before we were supposed to leave, I just felt highly unsettled about the situation. And I was like, I don't feel I was taking a shower, getting ready to go. You know what feels like luxury to me? is not some luxurious meal that we have to, like, drive 45 minutes to and get to a place on time and sit in some fancy place with some fancy people. Luxury feels to me like flip-flops and getting there when we get there and walking down the street and finding the first place with an open table outside and just sitting there. And then coming home and watching Ted Lassau.

And that, but I was, I didn't know if I should tell him that because he, He had like done this sweet thing of getting the reservation. And so I told him, I was like, how would you feel? Would it be sad for you if we just didn't do any of that? He was like, no, it's great. Let's just go. Let's do whatever. That felt like a good analogy for 10 years.

It felt like it may be not what you imagined or what you planned, but maybe it's just the best thing you can do is to just stay in touch with what you in this moment, this unplanned moment of your life, like what feels warm to you and just hope that you're in a place where you're safe enough to voice that. But I do have something I want to talk about on my anniversary and it's tangential but related. Well, did you get to watch Ted Lasso? That is what it's about. Okay. This is exact.

I'm so glad all roads lead to Ted Lasso. Okay. Of course they do. Yes. So this is what I want to talk about. Are you up to speed? I won't do any spoilers. So we get home and we watch there's this iconic scene where Rebecca brings her new boo to a double date with Kelsey and Roy and Keeley. Keeley. Keeley. Sorry, Keeley, Keeley, Keeley.

Roy Ket. He's here. He's there. He's there. He's there. He's there for fucking way. I mean. God. God. Damn. Okay. So he, so Keeley is being. very polite about this new guy and Roy as peruge is definitely not. And this is what he says, okay? He says, he's fine. That's it. Nothing wrong with that. Most people are fine. But it's not about him. It's about why the fuck you think he deserves you. You deserve someone who makes you feel like you've been struck by fucking lightning. You don't you dare settle for fine. Oh, I love that line so much. Of course you do, Abby. Of course you do. And it is iconic and powerful and beautiful. And also, I want to talk about that for a little bit. Because I feel like we get this message a lot.

Yeah. That there is this kind of hierarchy of love and that the best, rarest, most precious kind of love. is, you know, the there she is love, the lightning love, the lightning strike, and that every other kind of love is by definition settling. I mean, he says, you deserve someone who makes you feel like you've been struck by fucking lightning. Don't you dare settle for fine. And I get it, but do you know what else? lightning does, Glenn and Abbey? Lightning occasionally burns down your fucking house along with everything you love and treasure inside. Okay?

Correct. It does have that tendency sometimes. It does. And so I just want to unpack for a minute and push against this idea of like this hierarchy of loves with lightning on the top. Because it's not the best kind. It's just one of the kinds. That's one of the kinds. kinds of love. It's not the best. What I chose is like this comforting summer shower. It's like

a light warm rain. It's a cozy sunny day and you're sitting on your front porch and you're cuddling with your people and you're playing cards and you have this certainty of knowing that every most important thing is within arm's reach of you. And that this ordinary thing can be the most precious part of life, that kind of place of coziness and comfort and warm summer rain for myself and my kids. What I want to say is that that is not settling. Your love that you chose is just as good and magical as any other kind. That's right. That's right. That's what I want to say about that. Well, I think it's very American, right, in Hollywood to put the lightning, this quote unquote lightning bit of love at the highest peg of the podium.

But the reality is, sister, I feel like your lightning definition is different, right? I just, as a writer, I'm figuring out what was off with that scene. Okay. and what was off with that reaction? Because the problem was not in that moment that this dude and Rebecca had a lovely summer rain love. And Roy Kent was saying you need lightning. The problem was that this guy would never have offered Rebecca that kind of love you're

describing, would never have been the cozy where she felt safe and she felt seen and everything. That was not the issue. in that scene. So like there was also, I'm just saying a creative issue in that scene. Okay? He could see our last episode and he was clearly talking all about himself and monopolizing the conversation. But when you remember that scene where she's sitting there and she's watching and she realizes

she says, basically, I am choosing safe here. I am choosing, you know, matchable and safe versus I opening myself up to attack. But that she says her friend says that intimacy is opening yourself up to attack, right? And she's saying, and that's when she realizes that going, she is going with this dude who feels safe because she's unwilling to open herself up for attack. And that's a little bit, I think. think that it's fascinating because you have described that sometimes too, G, as is love, is vulnerability, is all of that just like opening yourself up to annihilation. And I think that sits a certain way with me because I don't know, that is saying that safety and comfort

and security is not a worthy and high value. It's like what he brings is the absence of attack. No, what he brings to me is this very high value comfort and peace of safety and grounding. That incidentally means he also won't, I won't be attacked. You know what I mean? So I feel like that's a very, I don't. know if it's just people who haven't been annihilated that resonate with that statement or people that, but it's always been confusing to me. I'm like, so, but what about the people who are just

like, actually, I have been annihilated. And in retrospect, I have re-evaluated my values and place a high value on not being fucking annihilated. I get that. I get that. You get to do that. That's like, that's adulting right there. But also, I just see it differently with the. Rebecca thing because I saw her looking at that guy thinking, I will never have to be seen by this human because he'll never want to see me anyway. What he wants to see is a reflection of himself in everyone that he looks at. That's what that whole dinner was. I will talk about, I could live my whole life and never be seen in this relationship. And that is what I want, because I allowed myself to be seen before and I got annihilated. I guess what I know plenty of people like

that. I used to pick friendships like that because I was sick and blemick and alcoholic and I didn't want anybody who required anything of me. The only people I could be close with are the people who required nothing of me. Right. So in choosing someone who won't see you, you are choosing not to be annihilated. What I do think is interesting in your relationship and, you know, relationships aren't on a spectrum. They're all over the place. But like you are so freaking seen, I think, in a relationship. Like, I sometimes am like, surely he's going to, he's going to say, surely he's going to send her to therapy now. Surely he's going to, I mean, you know, no offense, but like,

you are fully yourself in that relationship with no apologies, with no, like, you are fully a freaking self to the point where I'm like sometimes like, we're just going to have to rain it in a bit, okay? And he just sees you and never tries to change you and thinks you're a guy. You know, I don't know. So I guess I just am looking at things a little bit differently. I don't mean like I'm opening myself up to annihilation. I'm opening myself up to lightning.

I mean like is this relationship going to require me to show up? Yeah. Right. Because if you don't actually show your real self, that your real self could never get rejected. That's exactly right. Right. That, I, so I am understanding that second scene in a different way. I get that.

That's helpful to me. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting. And it is also our cultural obsession with love as pain. Like love as pain instead of love as comfort and close to. and coziness because even if you don't get struck by lightning, it's not real love. Lightning is deadly. Like if you get struck by lightning, you are dead. Dead. Well, I'm just saying I think

it's an interesting and underspoken about topic. Yes. That's right. And I agree. I think you're right. I don't think that we should all be or or hold ourselves to the standard of lightning, striking love. Or assuming that that's the only valid kind. Because it's not. Well, one thing we did not do is underspeak it today. We spoke to death. We spiked it. We overspooked it. Okay. It's a new year and instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my space to feel calmer, more functional and a little more like a place that can reflect my goals and energy for this year.

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professional settings? Thanks. Oh, Lord, have mercy on all of us. Yeah. Well, tests, many of us have felt inside of this special slice of hell, wouldn't it be cool if we all lived by the idea of, if you find yourself at a table and you are the person with the least amount of privilege in that scenario, then your job is to speak up, right? And if you are at a table and you find yourself as one of the people who has the most privilege at that table, then your job is to shut up. Like, wouldn't that be wonderful if that was just our general guideline for the next? I can propose it, Tess.

I propose it. I don't think, I've proposed it many, many times, and it keeps not really, like, taking hold. So in the meantime. Well, where are you proposing this such thing? You know, in general. That's the problem, babe. I'm just proposing, like, we need to make actual rules on this. I hear you, Tess.

Like there needs to be standard set inside of corporations, inside of government. Yes. This is so annoying. And you are not alone. But she's talking about a specific thing. She's talking about in professional settings. You can't have, I mean, presumably, if there's 10 men and four women at that table, presumably the 10 men are there because they have jobs.

Like they're not going to not speak at their jobs. She's talking about things like, well, what's going? on on Project X? Well, ma'am, we're not speaking because we have the most privilege. That would be good. That would be good. No, there, there, but what about the thoughts of interrupting, thoughts being interrupted, stolen and dismiss and amplifying each other. Abbey, you should tell the story about the thing that happened with the meeting and the text because I feel like that is like what not to do. Yeah. I sit on an elective board and the deal is I, did some research and found out that those of us that were electing said thing or person were mostly male. And then I looked at all of the women who had been elected and there were so few women. And I was like, wait, this whole system is set up to fail for women, right? Like, there's no way

more women will ever, like, we'll never catch up because of the way that this. Because the voting committee was so overwhelmingly male. So the people who were voting for the people who would be chosen were almost all male. Yes. So we were on a big Zoom call and I decided, okay, I'm going to say the thing that needs to be said because my wife is my wife and she coaches me up. And I said the thing. And I was like, look, I actually think that we have to go back to the drawing board here and find more women to be the electors in this position because otherwise this is going to never this is always going to be the case right and then the the most common thing happened right a few women whom I texted before this warning them that I was going to say something amplified my voice they were

there for me they supported me and then um mostly all of the men you know on this call said no things. Zero things were said. And it felt like I was a little like, I felt like a fool. I felt to be made foolish in that moment because there was really nothing. There was no, there was really nothing. There was no support. No support. Yeah. Sorry. So then the thing happens. The meeting ends. And then this thing happens that happens all the, time and I'm sure if you're a woman and you're listening to this, you can, you will relate. I get many emails and text messages from the men on the call in support of what I had just said. And so for whatever reason, I show you Glenn and I'm like, what the hell? Like, this is such

bullshit. Just little text like, oh, I heard what you said in the meeting. It was so brave. I have your back. I have your back. You were so right. I thought it was. Yeah. I thought it was really cool that you brought that up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But nobody, none of them said anything on the actual freaking Zoom call in my support, right? And so we had a long discussion about it. And what did we coin this term? Well, we just talked a lot about this illusion of silent solidarity. That if you're a person, if you're, you know, a man in a meeting or you're a white woman in a meeting.

If you're of any privilege in a meeting and somebody else bring something up, someone with less privilege in that situation, that you can say nothing. Because if you did say something, that would be risking. Right. That would be risking your proximity to power. That would be risking your alliance with the old boys club, which is creating the status quo that the other person is challenging. So the idea that you could not risk anything in that moment and still try to have your. cake and eat it too afterwards silently when it's of no risk to you, you know, elbow nudging the brave person who you left hanging when it mattered. Right? That this idea of silent solidarity

is not a thing. It's not a thing. It's just actually completely offensive. Yeah. And so what I had to do actually is I called out a few of the people who texted me. I said, you know what would have been really nice is if you were to have said something on the actual call. Yeah. That is the kind of support I'm looking for. And I think that that matters, right? Because they're going to keep doing the same thing until we tell them what they're doing actually is really offensive. And it hurts. It hurt my feelings.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's something we can do because it's like there's always the person that's so brave and says something. But if that person does not have a net of other people who in the moment will amplify, who in the moment will say, don't interrupt her, who in the moment will say, yes, I also agree with her, who will be the net to catch her, then what you said, honey, happens, is that the person ends up feeling left out to dry, foolish, and nothing changes. And the thing that it teaches me is next time, don't.

ever say anything. Next time I won't say anything. Yes, she will. There's also, I mean, that's what the, that's what, like, allies can do. But if the test is talking about, like, in those meetings, ideas getting stolen and dismissed, like what the women can do together. There's actually the, um, the Obama staffers, they came up with a real strategy, a coordinated strategy among them to, of, of what to do. Whenever a woman in the office, like at meetings or, in, you know, wherever they were, where a woman made a key point, the other women would repeat it and credit that back to her. And so, say, what Sheila just said was, that's a great point, which, yes, Sheila's point that. And so they'd reiterated it and it forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution and, and denied them the ability to morph it and claim it as their own.

So, and also by saying it over and over again, you know, the initial reaction is to dismiss something that a woman says. And so it just floats in and floats out. But if you say it three times, it's a great idea. No one can deny it was Sheila's idea. Okay, now we're getting and running with it. Yeah. So it requires, as always, it requires organization, right? Like, I loved that you, Abby called those women beforehand and said, I'm going to do this thing in a meeting. Like gathering your troops, gathering your troops first is a very important thing because it takes courage. Even the bravest people, it takes courage to amplify. It takes courage to stand up and to stand with someone.

And sometimes people need a heads up to gather that courage. So if you're going to say something important in a meeting, gather your people beforehand, right? Or read that article. I remember when the Obama staffers did that. Like read that article, they had actual strategies to. combat, yeah, the structural dismissal of women. Well, and if you can actually create those little, what I call wolf packs of women inside of your businesses or your professional settings, that you're not only holding each other accountable,

but you're holding your male counterparts accountable. So it's not just singularized to you. So you get together with the other women in your workforce, your workplace, and you say, listen, we're not going to let this happen. We're not going to keep letting this happen. And you have to talk to HR. But if you do it collectively together, then that's how you structurally change things from the bottom up so that they know what they can and can't do. Because it's all social dynamics that have to change, right? And so you have to do something to change them. One of the greatest ways to do that is to grab the people around you that will be not only allies, but accomplices

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All right, let's hear from Julia. Hi, Glennon and Amanda. My name is Julia. I have a highly sensitive kid and I find it nearly impossible to communicate with her when she's upset. So I end up walking away half the time. Help.

I love the podcast. Thank you. Abby, is that your question actually about me? Julia, Julia, I get you. I feel you. I am you. I raise and am raising a very, very highly sensitive kiddo. and I am a very highly sensitive kiddo.

And I would have thought that that would make it easier, but I think it makes it harder sometimes. Here's what I have learned about getting through those so many moments when you're deeply feeling kiddo is feeling the deep feelings. I think I spent the first five years of my kiddo's life trying to, maybe 10 years trying to explain to her why the thing she was freaking out about was not worth freaking out about. Okay. So if you have a highly sensitive kid, you know that, you know, if they struggle to tie their shoes one morning, it's like the end of the freaking world, right? It's just the breakdown that ensues, the pain, the trauma, the bawling. And so,

you know, a practical-minded person might try to. explain to the child that, you know, nobody, no house is on fire, no one's dying, that this is okay. We can, we can maybe dial down our reaction. And so that has never worked in the history of the world, right? So. Calm down. Yeah, just, just. You need to calm down.

Yeah. Yeah, that, if you want to think about, like, how the child will receive the message that you should just calm down and this is not a big deal. you just consider how every time that anyone's ever said that to you, how you felt, right? And the answer, you go from upset to like homicidal, right? It's like it's, it's this feeling of nobody knows how I feel. Like no, but you are explaining, you're dismissing this pain. And we know that for these little sensitive ones, the pain, it's not measurable. It's not comparable.

It's not rateable. It's not something that you can, it's not, you can't compare it to something else. Their big feelings are as big as the feelings get, right? Their feeling when they're, you know, their shoelaces won't tie is filling them. You know, there's just not enough room in this world for their pain. It's like big. And so it took me a decade, but I did learn that if instead of, oh, come on, honey, this isn't such a big deal. We'll just fix your shoelaces.

I'll do your shoelace. I don't know, no, no. Honey, this is so upsetting. You are so upset. I know that sounds so overly simple. You guys, it works every time. Every single time. It's freaking amazing.

It's magic, actually. It's like they look at you like someone is finally seeing me. Okay? Like if you want to think about how this feels to your child, imagine yourself and your partner actually looking at you and saying, this is so awful. You are in so much pain. And imagine how seen you would feel in that moment, right? Yeah, it is awful. I am in pain.

Exactly. You see if shoelaces won't tie themselves. Exactly. And it's like half of the sensitive person's battle, it's not the problem. It's getting another person to see how much we're feeling about the problem. So the second somebody sees us and validates it, we're halfway there. Okay, we're not all the way there. But we are halfway there.

Okay. So my first tip with the sensitive kid is just look at them, go the off. Opposite of your instincts, which are to agree that this is the worst thing that has ever happened and this child has every right to be devastated. Okay? Next, you are going to want to fix the problem. Okay? You are going to assume that if the child said child has a problem, that the solution to a problem is to fix it. And you are wrong.

You are wrong. It's not yours to fix. No, sir. No, ma'am. Dead wrong. You want a sensitive child to jump off a ledge. You try to fix her problem. That's so funny. I mean, not really funny, but.

With our sensitive child, we've learned this trick. Okay. Here's what we do. She says she comes to us. She is a gaping, vulnerable, wide open wound of something, of some sort. We don't know of what. she explains the ridiculous situation to us, okay? And then we look at her and we say to her two things, we say, that sounds awful.

This is awful. And then we say, are you ready for a solution yet? And 90% of the time, what is her answer, babe? Nope. No, I am not. No. She doesn't want a solution. She wants to wallow.

All right? Sensitive people want a minute to wallow because I'll tell you what sensitive people are not. We are not idiots. If we wanted the solution, we would figure out the solution. Our problem is our pain. Okay? We just want the pain to be witness. So what I would say is a sensitive child does not need a fixer.

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and C-E.com slash hard things to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash hard things. Okay, we're going to hear from Natalia next. Hi, G. How's sister. My name is Natalia. I just finished listening to one of your episodes about parenting. And this morning, we had a conversation with our four-year-old daughter. And she's experiencing being left out of a certain group of friends. And I remember being left out of certain groups of friends and not really liking that feeling.

But I don't want to put my own experiences and feelings onto her and label her as sensitive. And so I kind of wanted to get your your thoughts, if you can, on how to how to navigate and how to manage and how to help her without writing her story for her. Thank you so much. Is there anything worse than your kid feeling left out? Oh, I want to stab people. I know. That mama bear thing comes up. that mama bear instinct comes up and it's just so hard not to just call all their parents and just rat them all out. I know. I mean, I have some thoughts for Natalia. First of all, I just want to say

that I think Natalia has really, really good instincts because the first thing she said is when she said her daughter has been feeling left out of certain groups of friends. And then the next thing she said was, and I remember being left out of certain groups and not liking that feeling. And I just want to say one thing, which is that I think when our kids bring us a problem like this, my friends are leaving me out. It is our instinct to jump to like what we just talked about, fixing. Like, well, why?

What's the problem? How do we fix it? But sometimes I think the best thing we can do is just explain to them that how they're feeling is not, that they're not alone in it. You know, like when our kid is feeling left out, if we can, after we do our active listening, if we can say to them, you know what, I know how this feels too. You know, it's like a moment instead of fixing but connecting, like showing. like showing our kids that feeling left out is a human emotion that we're actually going to have throughout our lives and that there's no shame in it and that it's just universal, I think is a really good instinct of hers and would probably take a situation where she's

feeling disconnected at school and make her, have it be an opportunity to make her and her mom feel more connected to each other. What do you think? I mean, I just feel like I feel like 25% of issues like Natalia is dealing with are how to help your kid through the experience of it. But honestly, 75% of it is how the hell are any of us going to be able to survive? The pain it feels watching our kids go through. the treachery of life. Yeah, exactly.

Like, I mean, honestly, that's why I am not as worried. This might sound crazy, but I feel pretty confident my kids are going to make it through the world. I am not at all confident that I am going to be able to make it through the world watching my kids have to deal with the inevitable pain of life. Yes. Honestly, it's a mental, like, and it can be the most microbeats. micro thing. Like I will be what, you know, somebody turns their back on my head and I'm like, I'm like, hyperventilating. I mean, I don't, it is my honest question. Like how, when she said, like, how to help her without writing her story for her? Like, how to, how are we going to get through

all of these things that are, that our kids go through without, so traumatizing ourselves that we are then like vicariously traumatizing them, even though they're the first people who had the actual experience, which may or may not even have blipped on their radar. Right, right. Well, I think, I think that we have to remember that we've somehow figured it out. We somehow navigated that stuff ourselves. It is...

Did we, Abby? Because you just hear me? I don't think I'm very... Look at her fault. Like, I don't know at all if she did. I think so. I do think so. I think that, unfortunately, the world does have some sharp edges to it.

I think that putting our kids in many different kinds of environments so that they can figure out and find their people, like that's one of the most important things. Like, for instance, we've got three different human beings as children, and they all go in their own different ways. And yes, we never want to see our kids and a friend of theirs. ignore them or leave them out. It's like the worst feeling in the world. But we just have to do a little bit more searching, I think, to find the environments where they find their people. Yeah. And I would say this, and none of this helps Natalia in the moment because you just want your kid to have no pain and you want your kid to always be included. And for every, for a raindrop to never fall in their

head and to never feel sad. But, you know, I sometimes feel like when we let our kids feel that stuff, when we hold them close and we tell them we have also felt that way and we, you know, elicit more out of them and we just have that moment together, but we let that feeling be and try not to overfix and overfix and overfix. What ends up happening is that the kid actually feels it. Like the kid actually feels what it feels like to feel left out. There is value that I can see later in wise, brave, resilient people to letting our kids in saying, loving ways feel this stuff and later having conversations about what it means to not recreate

that kind of pain for other people. And I have a feeling that Natalia and her little one are going to get through this. Because they can do hard things. They can do hard things. Okay, we're going to sign off for this week, but we will be back in a few days. Okay. And we love you and we want you to remember every damn day that we can do hard things. We can do hard things. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it.

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