We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 232. What’s Your FAMILY DRAMA Style? with Nedra Glover Tawwab

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

We all want tools to navigate (and minimize!) family drama.  Today, Nedra Glover Tawwab teaches us how we can create drama free families:    How to speak up for yourself when it feels like going against the group;  Why confrontation is often the kindest thing;  When, exactly, we should bring up conflict & when to let it go; The most loving way a parent can respond to a child in pain.  For more with Nedra Glover Tawwab, check out: Episode 124 How to Say No: Boundaries with Nedra Glover Tawwab. About Nedra:  Nedra Glover Tawwab is the author of the New York Times bestsellers Drama Free and Set Boundaries, Find Peace. A licensed therapist and sought-after relationship expert, she has practiced relationship therapy for more than fifteen years. Tawwab has appeared as an expert on Red Table Talk, The Breakfast Club, Good Morning America, and CBS Morning Show to name a few. Her work has been highlighted in The New York Times, The Guardian, and Vice. Tawwab runs a popular Instagram account where she shares practices, tools, and reflections for mental health and relationships. She lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, with her family. TW: @NedraTawwab IG: @nedratawwab To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I want the line. How are the balls of you? Think that both of us are pretty good? Yeah, we're like, one kid's in Berlin, another kid is hiking in the middle of somewhere, so we both feel a little less tired. We have misplaced our children. Yeah, our children are like, like off and then we're like, they're great. We're like, oh, little untethered. That's good. How about you? My kids are at summer camp.

Nice. And I will pick them up at five. So very not untethered. Yeah, I'm in the thick of it. I love hearing about a teenage and adult children. It is something that certainly makes all of the day to dayness like, oh, wow, there will be a time when I, you know, don't see them every day. And it will be sad, but refreshing. You know what? I would say that that is true. I it will be sad, but refreshing. You know what? I would say that that is true.

I used to be really scared of them getting older because of all of the horror stories. And then I don't know. I just thought it would be this separation. You have them till the end of high school. And then that's it. There's all those terrifying things in the internet that are like, you have 18 summers. Make the most's it. There's all those terrifying things in the internet that are like,

you have 18 summers, make the most of it. All of this, you know, limiting scarcity. I will say that as our kids have gotten older, I think for every single one of them, there has been a pocket, which has usually been around 15, where I've sensed a distancing, which has been scary every time, because it feels like, oh, this time it's not going to get better, this time it's not going to work. And then that gap has closed later, like a couple of years later. And then this beginning of this new kind of relationship has started, which I feel closer to them now than I did when they were teeny. Yeah. It's also scary too. We're like three years away from our youngest being gone. And if they choose to go to college,

and one of the things that I feel a lot right now is like, oh my gosh, I have to get to know myself. Again, and like, I have to get to know Glenn and again, and like this deeper way. So I'm going to start doing therapy and give myself like a three year runway to try to figure that shit out, because I feel a little bit nervous about myself. Like, oh gosh, like I have oriented my whole life around these little humans that That's so healthy Yeah, I mean, I don't know what's gonna come up there, but The healthy part is you're thinking about it. I think unfortunately It's when it happens when the kids you know move on to whatever when they're 18 or 19 or 20

And we haven't even thought about that being a possibility or what that could look like that it becomes who am I, who is my partner, what is life? Yeah. And I think that's part of the, it's amazing that we just jumped into this right now because today, Pod Squad, we are, we are going to talk about family drama. What is it? Why does it affect us so deeply? How do we navigate it? And it's funny because a lot of the things that family drama is about is actually about something else. And this is a good example of it. Like, I'm so scared my kids are leaving. Is it about them? Or is it about now I'm stuck with myself? Yeah, that's for sure that's for me. Yeah, when you've built your identity around being a parent and

you know, being a uber and picking up and dropping off and being an activities coordinator and being a summer planner and all of these things, it can be hard to consider what you might want to do with your time now. How you want to be in your friendships, how you want to be in a partnership or pursue a partnership or maybe go to your own violin lessons. What is life like? And, you know, unfortunately, sometimes that energy is put on the kids. And it's like, no, you need to call me. You need to be here.

You need to, and the more there's that pool, kids will back off. They're like, whoa, wait, wait, I want my life. I want my life. Yes, that's exactly it. Yeah, children are like the greatest distraction for yourself. They're like the greatest magnifier, and also equally the same amount of distraction. That's what I think.

Yeah, and I think for those of us that are lucky to get to a certain point in our life, just aging is such a freaking beautiful privilege. And many of us have never really had the time, the space, the cultural mandate of producing and caretaking has been what we've done since we were adults. So we never have had a minute to say, who am I, what do I want? Free of the demands of caretaking. And for women, this moment is like, wow, what am I gonna do? Like, who am I gonna be? It's like a freaking beautiful, it's hilarious because we both have full time jobs

and we have a lot going on in our professional life and we're like, really worrying about, what are we gonna do? So anyways, we're here for Nedra to tell us what to do. Okay. Family drama. And Nedra to tell us what to do. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Family drama. Nedra, who is our just beloved,

and really the world's beloved boundaries expert is back. If you haven't listened episode 124, how to say no boundaries with Nedra, please go back and listen when you finish this. Nedra Glover to Wob is the author of the New York Times bestsellers drama free and set boundaries find peace. A licensed therapist and sought after relationship expert she shares practices tools and reflections for mental health and relationships. She lives in Charlotte, North Carolina with her family.

And what I can tell you about Nedra that you can't see right now, but that you will hear is that she seems to have a calm nervous system. Which for me is the measure of if anybody is walking the walk that they're talking. Yeah. Is when they come on, if they're any kind of like emotional boundaries expert, and they actually do have a calm nervous system, I think, okay, I will have what she's having. Nadra, your new book is about drama in actual understanding of why it's messing them up so much because it does affect us so much more than friendship drama or anything else really and then to also give people some tools to deal with that kind of conflict. But can you start off by telling us? Here's my question. As I, you answered a lot of this in the book, but as I was reading the beginning, I kept thinking,

what is the difference between family drama and just family? Are there families without drama, or is the drama part just inherent in these groups where we just love each other so much and we all have such limited tools is just being in a family dramatic. I would say the way in which we manage conflict differences, that's what creates the drama. families, there is a better handling of, you know, us not having the same religious views or us being from different income brackets or my kids being homeschooled and your kids going to private schools. There's maybe a respect or a way that we can deal with that, but there,

when there's an unwillingness to manage conflict, when there is constant confrontation, we haven't figured out any tools to repair, that's when the drama comes in. Of course, in any relationship, there's going to be some conflict, but how we manage it is really important. And actually, the conflict isn't unhealthy. It teaches us how to be in relationship with people. When I have an argument with my partner, hopefully we won't repeat the same argument because there's been some level of understanding. We know how to proceed

in the future. But when those things are not repair properly, that's when the drama ensues. Mm-hmm. So the three examples you just gave, these are all differences. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So is conflict in family, most of the conflict you family, you hear about navigating differences. Oh, that's interesting.

And so is what's beneath it the resistance to individuation, like the idea that we all have to be the same. Absolutely. I think, you know, if you come from a family with a heavy pattern of addiction, and a person is deciding to live a life of sobriety, that is problematic because that's the difference, right? It's like, oh my gosh, this person is not like us, this isolates them. Now, I think they're judging me.

But yes, that's about differences. And sometimes it's good, right? It can be really inspiring. It can give us some ideas around how we want to be. But many times it can cause conflict. It causes comparisons, jealousy, and you know all sorts of, you know, resentments. What are you here from people the most? Like when people are reporting to you, here's my particular family job. Here's my brand, my family's brand of drama, meeting, like how far so how do you define drama in a family?

And then secondly, what are the brands of drama that you hear the most often? Drama is high chaos and conflict that has not or cannot be resolved. The brand of drama that I hear the most, I would say, is between the child and parent. Now I'm seeing a lot of adult children wanting to live a more autonomous life. And as we started talking about, those parents haven't learned to develop their own sense of self outside of parenting. And so they want their voice to be very huge in these adults life.

And maybe my parents' generation, they respected that more. Now we're dealing with, you know, new people where they're like, Hey, I'm doing whatever I want to do. We're at a new generation where people want a different type of parenting. Parenting, and, you know, maybe the 60s or 70s, if your parent did anything, you know, it was like, Oh, my dad was gone all the time, but he needed to work. Now it isn't neglect. You know, so at that time, it was like,

he just worked two jobs. That's what he needed to do with his family, but now we have a different label for it because people identify, wow, while that was happening, although we needed the income, no one ever talked to me about my feelings. When I started my cycle, I was just given a path. When I had these different life experiences, I didn't have anyone there.

And so now we have higher needs, which is not a bad thing, but it certainly shapes the way that people expect to be parented in their adulthood. So I'm seeing a lot of conflict there with differences. That's so interesting. It's interesting to see some parents so resistant to allowing their children to show up in the world in the way that they want, not in totally bad ways. I'm not seeing a lot of people do anything ridiculous.

It's like, I want to go to Mexico for Thanksgiving. And they're having these like family conversations and conflicts. And I'm going to cut you off. You don't want to come here with your grandmother. How dare you go to my for going to Mexico? Yeah. Isn't it fascinating? No though because it makes me feel

as if there's a category of family drama. It's just about true dysfunction and not being able to communicate correctly. But isn't there a category of family drama that is based on culture moving on and having different values than the previous generation. That it makes inherent conflict that actually it plays out as an individual who wants to go to Mexico and a mother who can't let go of. But what it's representing is this cultural value of true to thine own self, being the cultural value. Whereas last generation's culture value is like, wait, togetherness, family, the collective. And so there really isn't a right or wrong.

It's just the inevitable conflict that comes up as culture shifts values. And so every generation has a different right and wrong. Yeah, I would say so. I was born in the 80s. And I think about all of the things that weren't necessarily around or acceptable when I had children and the, you know, later 2000s. Like so many things had changed. You can't use baby powder with kids at a bar. They have to be in a car seat until they're 20.

That's just all of these new things. And it's like, I don't even remember a car seat, but it's mind blowing to me. My kids will have a recollection of a car seat in their child. Mm hmm. And there are so many other things that have changed the way that people may or may not attend church, the way people may or may not want to celebrate their holidays with family or with friends, or by themselves, you know, like all of these things have shifted. And within families, we're like, no, this is the only way to do it. If you do anything else, it's a rejection of us. If you don't allow this person to borrow all of your things or do all of this stuff. It's like you're rejecting us as a people.

And it's really, I just want to decide who I am. I just want to create my own life. And that might look a little different. And I still love you. But with that, we have so many new ways to be connected. Do you remember long distance calling like in the 90s? It was such a thing. Oh my gosh.

Oh, it's like hurry up, get on the phone. They're long distance. Yes. $5 a minute. $5 a minute. I remember traveling to Ghana and I had calling cards. Cards. Yes, cards.

You had to put in like a 14-digit number. But the call-through can be connected to people so easily. So has that made up for some of the, you know, disconnection that we had over those years? Like we had to be connected, you know, in that sort of way. But now I could just pick up the phone and call people. There's so many different ways. I feel like I am connected with you

if I could just zoom, like do I need to see you. There's so many technological advances that have made it more possible to maintain relationships in a different way. And I think sometimes, you know, those things are not necessarily accounted for how things used to be and how things are now. Like you have generations now where they're like, I don't wanna answer my phone with when people call, just text me. Even like our kids, their relationship with those technologies and devices are very different than ours.

So they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. Our kids in Berlin, he's like, this is fine. No problem. We're like over here sad. Oh, we miss him. And he's like, no, we're connected as ever. Yeah. Hi, it's Elise Loonon, the New York Times bestselling author of Honor Best Behavior, and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread. I'm joined in conversation by those who can help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming. My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny

sees of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow. Listen and follow Pulling the Thread thread and Odyssey podcast on the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think about it a lot in terms of women, I'm in recovery right now for a lot of eating things. And we look at what we know now in our culture, about diet culture, and about how to treat little girls in their bodies, and then we feel very upset about our parents

and how they handled the same things in very different ways. And we think, how could they have? How could they have? And then I think about my kid, who's 20, they're older. And I think about when he was a baby and little, I used to put him all over social media and a job. Like they were little small children all the time, five times a day, look how cute they are.

Now the consciousness that they have about like their own agency and parents who put their kids, it just wasn't a part of the consciousness 20 years ago. But I know it. I know they're already doing it. They're going to be like, how could you have? And I'm going to have to say the same thing my parents are saying to me, I loved you so much and I did not have the consciousness that we have now. If it were now, I would have made different decisions and I'm so sorry. But that is a, how could you? That is actually culturally explained in some way.

It's interesting, I can't forgive our families for some of the, how could you moments? But we know that we're probably actively creating those, how could you moments, but we know that we're probably actively creating those how could you moments for our own children, it feels backwards. Yeah. Yeah, but I think about what could make that a healthier experience is when a parent can own that because I hear some owning in that. Yes, I did do that. And my apologies for what I did not know. The dysfunction comes in where the parent says, you can't say that to me. I did what I wanted to do. Or, you know, like all of these other things, like, how dare you have an issue with me putting you

online? Like, all of those sorts of things are the reasons that families have conflict because Like all of those sorts of things are the reasons that families have conflict because when a parent comes to you and they're apologetic and they're able to hear you, that's a very different experience than a parent saying, you're just making up stuff. That's not how it was, or this was what I meant to do and pay,

you have to deal with it. But when you can honor and respect a sibling, a child, or anyone else in your family, it makes for more of a restorative experience when having conversations. But we really get trapped in that. I did the best I could, where I didn't mean to do it. And so we get into over-explaining ourselves or not wanting to be accountable. One really positive thing I'm noticing now

with younger folks is there is this desire for accountability. And it's something that maybe our parents have a really hard challenge with. With just, I guess that happened that way. I did that because it's so hard to see yourself as a harmful and also loving person. Because we will do harm as humans accidentally all the time.

And when we can acknowledge that, what we're gaining is respect. Yes. Yes. It's like they fear they're going to lose respect by admitting it. It's like parental fragility. It's like a little bit like white fragility. It's like, I can't look at that because that will ruin my identity as a good parent. Is that what you see because there's a million different versions of family drama. Is accountability a cultural thing? Is the older generation like, what the hell are you talking about? Because they had an authoritarian model for parenting. Yeah, I think accountability is a thing

when, you know, people want accountability and you refuse to give it to them or refuse to you refuse to give it to them or refuse to accept their reality. It deteriorates the relationship because then it's a lack of trust. Yes. They can't trust that you will even change moving forward because you have it acknowledged what happened in the past. So to move forward, that acknowledgement piece is really big. With couples, I'm seeing a lot of conflict with their parents when they start to have children. Because that's when the boundaries are coming out. And they're like, hey, people who raised me,

here are these things. I want to be different with my children. And how do I know this? You raised me. So yes, you can, baby. But here's the page of things that we're doing differently here. Yeah. The kind of, like the hurt feelings my mom has felt over that. She's like, like I didn't know, like I don't know what I'm doing. I raised seven children.

And I'm like, yeah, well, you got to follow and respect their reasons and guidelines for the way that they want to do it. My family's kind of drama, I think is like a step before what we're talking about in terms of any kind of conflict. My family's kind of drama is complete brushing everything under the rug and not even engaging in the conflict. So I feel like I'm being gasslet my whole life. Like it's just the way things are, the way my family does things. But then when things happen, nobody talks about any.

How does that affect people? Because that's a different kind of family drama. It's like a refusal to have any drama drama. Yeah, but there's all there's drama. Just it's this pot that's boiling, bubbling over the top. The unnoticing is its own drama, right? Because it does create this questioning experience. Like did this really happen?

Am I the only person who sees this? And when you're in a family and they're trying to convince you of a different reality, it is gaslighting. Oh, it's not that bad or you know, you should feel this way about it. This person is having a hard time. They didn't mean it that way. And all of those things could be true. And also it hurt. They had a really bad day at work and then they came and yelled at me. That's all I'm saying. I didn't say they didn't have a bad day. I'm just saying.

They did something harmful to me. And that's the part of it I don't like. I think when we have addiction and families, this covering up is a really big thing. There are some family members who will acknowledge it and there are others who will really just, I don't know what you're talking about. It's like, but you're not noticing any behavior. You're not noticing like things missing

and that creates conflict. And sometimes not even with the person who is maybe creating some of it, it's with the other family members because now they're arguing about what the issue is. So that refusal to see an issue is really problematic. And we have to step outside of that protective barrier that we try to have around people. And honor was someone is saying. And it's hard for me, I think in my family dynamic, there were seven children, two parents. And I think a lot about how different I felt from the rest of them. I don't know if it's because I took an observer role, be the youngest or whatever,

but there is this weird, interesting dynamic too that if you do feel like you're the X factor, however you want to describe that, it feels like this dynamic that it's them versus me. And I bet a lot of listeners feel that way. And so it feels like, you know, they're always like, well, this is how you are. This is just your problem.

How does somebody in that position try to engage with conflict? How do you get the courage to speak up for yourself when you feel like you're going against the whole clan? Well, Abby, as a fellow baby, there's a lot of observing that you can do as the youngest member in your family. And so you have the ability to see your siblings like do certain things and you're able to start, okay, so when they do that, then this and then, oh, don't say this to mom because if you say it this way,

like, it's a really privileged position sometimes, but I do think the drawback is it makes you a bit different from people sometimes because you have this level of awareness that they didn't have the opportunity to have. So how do we connect because you have this level of awareness that they didn't have the opportunity to have. That's interesting. How do we connect with people when you may know something and they may not yet know it?

Yes. Okay, say more. How do we do that? Yeah. We just yell at them repeatedly that year, right? We just keep saying louder and louder. I think that's where the meeting people where they are comes in. You have a level of understanding that they have not been privileged to

understand because they're in it. But you're like, I've been watching this. I've been watching this play out for years. And this is what I know. And I have this it. But you're like, I've been watching this. I've been watching this play out for years and this is what I know and I have this information. And you may come across as like, oh my gosh, like your perspective is so different. It is. I'm in a different position in the family, just like the oldest is in a different position

in the family, just like the middle children are in a different position, just like if your parents get a divorce and you know, like all of these things change our roles in family and what we're able to see. And sometimes we don't have to improve situations by telling people, you know, who they are and what we think. It's just allowing them to be themselves. That can be harder for some of us because what is really comfortable is when people are just like us. If everybody likes to watch

the same TV show, we all like to have the same thing for dinner, we all like to go to the same places, that would just be wonderful. That's not very likely, especially in a family of seven. Right? What's going to happen is, I'm gonna be over here doing my thing. And sometimes people should come over there with me. And then sometimes I may go over here with you. We need to figure out what this looks like, just like you would do, you know,

remove family from it in a classroom, in a friend group setting, in a workplace. We figure out how to make it work. Like we figure out how to be in relationships with people, but in families, what we don't want to do is figure it out. We want them to get on our page. We're like, okay, the way that this situation improves is if you become more like me, just be like me and we would just be happy

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because you say in the book that Family is like a classroom like there there may be two or three people in a classroom that we really connect with But not everybody in the class is gonna be invited to a birthday party But the thing that is that family is like everyone has to be invited to the birthday party. But the thing that is that family is, like everyone has to be invited to a birthday party, right? What do we do when we do feel like everyone needs to be invited to the birthday party? And we are with people who are saying things that are hurting us,

because I'm sure that's what you hear a lot, the put downs or the- Cheezing, yeah. Right,. Like what how do we handle that? Does everyone in the family have to be invited to our birthday party? Or is that a choice we make? Is that a way that we try to keep down conflict by being uncomfortable with that person's presence. So how do people know whether their family ranks in the dysfunctional slash drama situation? How do you, as a therapist, divide people between,

you're just a human being who's living among human beings. That causes some inevitable conflict. You over here are in a drama filled dysfunctional family. And we need to find ways to extricate or handle that. What are some symptoms for people to know, oh, I'm in the drama. Frequency and intensity. How often is this happening? Is this a one-off with your

sister-in-law or is it every time you see your sister-in-law? Is it, you know, a small situation or is it a big blow-up? How often is it happening and how intense? How severe is it? What is the offense? Is it something that you can cure with saying, you know, hey, yes, I'm not eating a ton of food, but I also don't want that to be an experience where you feel the need to comment on my weight because I didn't eat a lot of food. Do they receive that or don't they receive that? Does that lead to having a big blow up? Does this other person get in it? Like what's happening in the family? Sometimes there is this thing,

what that happens in families that is very normal, but also unhealthy and it's gossip. Yes. Family gossiping is very harmful. And it's also very normal to get on the phone with maybe a sibling or a cousin or whoever and say, oh my gosh, did you see that person when they brought their son over?

Oh my gosh, it's not very helpful. It's just not like, hey, I saw Riley. It's like, no, did you see his face? He's really in puberty. You know, why do we do this? And you know, it doesn't stop there. It becomes like this spread of calling other people, bringing other people into it and being very hurtful toward the people that we love. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Okay, I need to understand why this is so difficult. This is so hard for me to even think about.

I have a loyalty, I have a nostalgia, I have like a primal DNA tie to these people. And I don't understand why it's so hard for me to set a boundary or talk about the drama rather than just continue to like keep the party line with the family and to keep sweeping everything under the rug. Why is this so hard to deal with or not deal with family drama? It's a good question because we can do it with friends, we can do it with everyone. Because little Abby is activated. Okay. And that big, grown voice has not had the opportunity

to come out because you're still thinking about who you used to be, what used to happen, you're gonna get in trouble. You can't say this to that person because instead of saying, this is my life and this is an issue. And I have the ability to express my challenge with what's going on in this relationship. But with family, the relationship started before you were you. And I don't know if you come from one of those families where people love to remind you of

little you, right? You were this, you were that and you know, and then yeah, and now when it grown you has to say something, it's like little you was saying it to me. It's like, whoa, how does little Abby say that to me? It's like, oh, I'm an adult now. This is big, Abby, not Little Abby speaking. And so we have to claim that space and our adult who are of being a mature person

who can speak up in our relationships regardless of the history, regardless of the family time because when we do not, it builds the resentment. It builds a lot of issues in that relationship and naturally we start to pull back. We start to have animosity. We start to maybe talk about these situations with other people and if we want to be in those relationships, we have to do the work of repairing them. And that's going to be having some of these adult conversations that make you a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah, I'm hearing two things in there. One, the reason why it feels like I can do a lot of hard things,

but talking to my mom or dad about changing patterns is not one of that. Like, I'd rather die. Like, it feels primal inside of you. Like, I would rather die than do that thing. Is that because that's attachment? Like, little Abby, not rocking the boat, was the way you survived because your family is your safety on the earth. So it's reminding ourselves as adults, oh, but now we can survive without the caretaking of this.

So it's okay to say things that maybe weren't okay when we were little. And it's the reminder of what Nundra is saying about it being the kind thing to do. We don't confront our families kindly, even though we love them, we confront them kindly because we love them and we want to continue the relationship.

Yeah, I just also think it will be heartbreaking to have some of these conversations with my mom and dad about, I don't know, if it's even my experience or but just like what I'm seeing, I don't want to come off as a person who's judging them or being so critical, it's just, I don't know. I think this is what I was taught to not question them. And that is like, what is, I think I'm feeling so,

like I'm gonna be in trouble. So that's why it's hard too, because you're fighting something in yourself. Yeah. Family stuff is in you. It's like the calls coming from inside the house. Oh. That's the little you though, the I'm gonna get in you. It's like the calls coming from inside the house. That's the little you though,

that I'm gonna get in trouble. I wonder what have they done to make you feel safe in the relationship to be able to talk about difficult things. And I bet it's some of what both of you are doing with your children because my kids are seven at nine and they're very clear with stuff. It hurts my feelings, but I always say,

I want you to be honest with me. I will deal with being mad. I'll deal with being upset, but I want you to be able to say whatever it is you need to say to me. I love that. That's not exactly the message that we've got. The older generation passed down. No, right? No.

Is it ever just too late therapy is a big thing for our generation? My parents did not, my parents were both teachers. They were working their asses off. Nobody was going to therapy. So we all have all this therapy that then we're bringing to our parents with these conversations. Is it always a good idea to point out patterns that we think are unhealthy with our parents? Or sometimes is it just work we need to do on our own? Sometimes it is work that we need to do on our own, particularly when we have a parent who's expressed the lack of desire to change. Because just because you want something different doesn't mean that the other person wants the same thing.

It can be very scary to change. It can be something that you don't even know how to get started. You may have your own things that you need to go to therapy for, but you're not ready to take that path, all sorts of things. So a lot of the changing is really on us. Even if you have that conversation, sometimes the takeaway is not, okay, now this personal change everything. It's just, I said the hard thing and they're aware. Yeah. I just need you to be aware.

It's not even that you have to do these things differently. But if I start to do things differently with you, you're aware of why. Yes. And that does shift everything. We approach things differently. So how do we know when we should bring it up? Like how do we know when we should bring up conflict with someone or when the mature thing to do is refrain from that? And work on ourselves. Because sometimes confrontation is healing to the family drama. And sometimes it's just contributing to the family drama. Yeah. So how do we know the difference? When do you, as a therapist say, okay, in this scenario, it's the right time to say something. Well, the first thing is, have you ever brought it up before? Are they aware of it?

If it's something they're aware of, you don't need to bring it up a tenth time. You will have some people who are like, I keep saying it to them and it's like, okay, that is a sign they're not listening. Don't say it anymore. Saying it an eighth time is not going to be the magic number, just stop. They're not listening. But then you have other folks who haven't said anything and they've just been sitting with this stuff. So I would say at least speaking up once, right? And then from there, allowing them to have some time to sit with it, or even an opportunity to make some changes if that's what you're requesting.

I have clients sometimes write a letter to their parents or sibling or whoever. At the end of writing this letter, you can decide if this is something you want to keep, or if this is something you want to share. If you want to share it, that person has a choice to respond or not. Look at all these choices. So you can keep it to yourself or you can share it.

Sometimes just being honest with yourself is enough. Yes. And there are other times where it's like, oh no, they have to have this. So I think getting it out in and of itself is its own kind of magic. And this stuff too could be taking it to this person. But if you know that people are not in a space to change, it can be harmful to take some information to them

or to address some things. It can be a re-endering of sorts. It can be a gaslighting situation. It can be a situation where now you're really unraveling because they've denied this stuff or something like that. So we really have to be clear about our people because there is no one way to manage this. Yeah, I got into a conflict with a brother a couple of years ago. There's alcoholism involved and I have decided there's no way I'll be able to repair anything unless he's ready for any kind of repair.

And so I said my piece then and I will hopefully be able to circle back around with him, but I'm waiting for him to get healthier for that time. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's kind of the way that I've thought about it. I think that so many people think of the reason to work on family drama is to fix the relationship or to change the relationship. But to me, the reason to focus so much on the family drama is because of the Collins side, the house thing. It's because as children of a particular family, it's baked into us.

And so we work on the family drama so that we don't pass it down to the next. It's not all about going back and fixing a thing between the two of them. It's working it out inside of you so you don't go forward with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So the letter works either way. The letter works whether you give it or not. Yeah, because there is an acknowledgement of what can be done differently. A lot of things that I see parents improving on is a correction of what they didn't have. When you see all of this emotion on a glit, now we have parents who are like, how are you feeling? What are you doing? Do you have your feeling where it's going

on? Use it. Come on. Okay, you're upset. All right. I'm gonna let you be. So there's this movement of allowing kids to feel, allowing kids to, you know, be upset, not shutting down the tantrum.

And it's as a result of not being able to feel, being told, you know, if you're crying to stop it. And so that's a very healthy thing that many of us did not have. And so yes, just acknowledging some of that stuff is a path to correction. And it can be scary to be in a family with people who won't acknowledge that

because that means that we're repeating the pattern. When you're in a relationship with someone who, you know, like you said, who has some alcoholism going on, it can be a really hard thing to watch. And you were saying, I don't know if it's right or wrong. And I think about the sadness that one has to endure to watch a person deteriorate, especially a family

member that you also have memories of and you have, you know, at some point had a connection to to watch that can be a level of pain that might be intolerable for you. So stepping away from the relationship is the healthiest thing because I can't even see it. You know, I can't even watch this, like it's heartbreaking. And so whether it's right or wrong, it's healthy. Yeah. You were talking about the moment of repair, and I've been looking into a lot of things

in churches lately, and I was reading this account from a person who had reported abuse to the leadership of the church. And what she said again and again is, when I reported the abuse, the way that the elders, the people in charge, non-reacted and gaslit and refused responsibility, was more traumatic to me than the first abuse.

And that just feels so similar. It feels like, oh my God, if we could just do anything, it could be, let's just look at that moment of repair. It's not even what has happened all the time. Our posture and our reaction when people come to us and say whether they're our children or whoever you hurt me. And what is the best posture response approach that you've seen a family unit have when pain has been brought to the This is a great question. When people say hard things about us, what typically happens when a person rejects it is they don't believe in duality. If a person or if I do something bad, it means I or this person is completely bad. Everything else I know about them, I have to discard it because now they're bad. And so the only way for me to live in this relationship is to deny what is being said. Because I can't believe this. And can truly it.

I cannot believe this and continue in the relationship. So I have to say it didn't happen that way. Perhaps you got something wrong. Like I have to say all of that stuff because I can't believe that this person who is nice to me is also someone who would assault someone or whatever the situation is. When in actuality we are many things. There are parts of us that we represent with different people. And so

if someone comes to you with a story, it's best to just listen to them, not to add to their story, not to change their story. You can ask questions, but it's best to just listen. And a really helpful thing is to say, how can I help you and what do you want me to do? You may not even want to end your relationship with this other person unless that's what that's the help

they ask for, maybe it is, but you are there to receive because in the receiving, you are healing this other person. You are continuing in the relationship. You can't account for another person's action. So I'm always puzzled when you watch the news or when you hear of these sort of stories and they're like, my neighbor would never do that. Any neighbor on my street, I don't know what they do inside their house. So if you came to my house with a camera, I'd be like, he could have. Yeah, he's nice, but

I don't know. Absolutely. And so we have to believe people's stories. It's just so hard for us to hear. And our response to that is rejection. And I'm going to throw this in. People have a lot of trauma that they have not identified. And so when you bring similar trauma to them, in an effort to not have to go in their closet and deal with their stuff, they reject your stuff too. I've seen that over and over, especially with sexual abuse. When you have family members who deny it and this sort of things,

they likely also have been sexually abused. And so in their unwillingness to deal with their stuff, they're trying to get you to do with Adia that clearly hasn't worked. Yeah. So if there's a parent who had a child bring them some shit, So if there's a parent who had a child bring them some shit, okay? And said this hurt, you know, the way you did this when I was younger. And they'd spun. Because of the inability to hold the duality. If I love this person more than my own life itself, not so I couldn't have done those things, but and I did those things.

And they spun out, what would you say to them to pick up the phone and say to their person now? I couldn't hear you then, but I'm ready to listen now. Can we talk? Mm. And when they say, you did this, I felt alone. You weren't there, you're too critical.

I don't feel safe around you. Then what does the parents say? My apologies for parenting you when I didn't have better tools. That's good. So when kids come to you with issues, the most loving thing you can do as a parent is just,

listen, it's so hard. It's so hard to hear some of these things that they may think about you or their world or some of the decisions you've made that have impacted them because it wasn't your intention. You know, maybe it wasn't your intention, but that doesn't remove impact. Yeah, I just keep thinking about how so much of this is the generation before and they have the particular tools they have and they have the understanding of what success is and then the new generation. What is culture? Like it's books, it's movies, it's conversations. Is there an angle in here where we

are sharing more with our parents about the way the culture is moving? I think one of the things that helps me understand my kids is constantly trying to stay plugged into whatever they are listening to even though it feels not so to me. But like, do you know what I mean? This is why like parents just vedging out on Fox News forever causes these dramas because they're not moving along with the culture. They're not learning what everybody else is learning. Is that making any sense? Like is there a way to share? If we can't have a conversation with our mom,

we could maybe send them a book we're reading that helps shift our consciousness. Absolutely. I would say book sharing is a wonderful thing. Also, you know, I was listening to this song the other day and it really made me think about whatever. Right. I read this online. On my book tour, I have so many sisters and couples and mother daughters come up. I mean, I have moms crying. My daughter shared your book with me

and it was so hard and they're like crying like, but it was so helpful for our relationship. I'm like, really? It is helpful for a person who wants to receive it. Yeah, it is very helpful. I think one of the most important things that I've heard you say is this idea of duality. I logically know this, but when I do something wrong or there is some sort of conflict, I go into I am now all bad. And that perspective can also be seen in the way that my brain works, I guess. Like, so if my mom did this thing to me when I was younger, that means she's all bad. And none of that is true because I don't know, I'd want to say thank you for that because

it will help me, not just in my relationship with our kids, but like, I think it really is gonna help me add a little compassion going outward. And I think I first need to figure that out on the inside. Yeah, we can love and hurt. And we can, that's actually all we do. And we can hurt and love. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nadja, thank you so much. The conversations that your books are starting, we're going to be screwed, because you're moving people so far along. Our kids are going to be really freaking healthy, and we're going to be screwed. So thanks a lot, Naja. Hot squad.

I can go pick up Naja's books. Except boundaries find peace and drama free. And you know, you've got to go pick up your babies at summer camps, set boundaries, find peace and drama free, and you know, you gotta go pick up your babies at summer camps, so thank you so much, Nendra. It's wonderful to see you as always, and Pod Squad, we'll see you back here next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things.

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And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time, but I'm finally fine

Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So man, a final destination with that We stopped asking directions We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain

That our lives bring We can do a heartache This world finished her rose and heart breaks on mine. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stopped asking directions Some places may have never been And to be loved we need to be loved We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things

Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Hardly