We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 233. What’s Next for We Can Do Hard Things

Episode Date: August 3, 2023

Join Glennon, Abby, and Amanda in celebrating, and closing out, the first season of the pod – and help them write the next chapter: What it felt like for Glennon to listen – for the first time ��� to her anorexia diagnosis episode;  How their parents’ 50th Wedding Anniversary party showed Glennon how to stop performing and just BE;  The crucial distinction Amanda is exploring between tension and conflict;  Abby’s recent decision to explore her relationship with anger; and  How to join in shaping the future of the pod.    For the other conversations mentioned in this episode, check out:  165. Glennon’s Diagnosis & What’s Next 167. Tracee Ellis Ross: How to Make Peace in Your Own Head 168. Sonya Renee Taylor: What If You Loved Your Body? 216. How to Find DELIGHT Today (and Every Day) with Ross Gay 226. Enneagram: Why You Are the Way You Are with Suzanne Stabile To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the last episode of this season of We Can Do Hard Things. We just discovered that there are seasons. People do podcasts. Can have seasons where they stop and start again. We've just been going and going and going forever and relentlessly. Nero week off. Nero week off. To use some of Abby's Victorian language.

Nero week off. I'm excited because I actually do think and live in seasons. And for me, I always think of the end of the year as, August, in the beginning of the year, September, because that's my teacher brain. Oh, yeah. I always think of September as the beginning of the year. So we are gonna take a pause after this episode you're hearing. A brief pause. In your ear, your balls. We are gonna take a pause after this episode you're hearing. A brief pause.

In your earballs. We are going to take a pause and a little breather. And then we're going to come back fresh in September to do another season with you of life. It's very exciting. Yeah, and so we've all three in preparation for this episode. We have been trying to think about what this season, which for us started in January, right? I mean, really it started two-hours ago.

No, this season started in May of 2021, is when the season started. Okay. I am curious about how this episode will shape up because it feels like kind of a big deal because this episode is going to be the last episode of our season. So when I say season, I mean, we started this season in January.

That's how I'm thinking of it. We're ending now. We're gonna take a, okay, so what I call is a sala, a sala. That's one of my favorite words, S-E-L-A-H. It's like a holy pause. It's a breather. What is it, two weeks? Yeah, a two week sala, where we just kind of

let everything soak in that we've learned and talked about and wrestled with this season. And then we're going to start again, fresh with our pod squad in September. So today we're going to talk about what this season has meant to us. And we're going to ask you at the end of the episode to help us use this next few two weeks to shape the next season by calling in, writing in the number of 747 205 307 or if you're more of a writer and less of a caller, you could write to wcdhtpod at gmail.com. And just let us know, who do you want to hear from? What conversations do you want to hear? What is going on in your life that you are either struggling with or growing from, that you want to share with the pod squad

and have us all do together? Because that's what I feel like we're doing. We're just doing life together one week at a time. It truly is a co-created podcast. We read every single review. We read every single comment, listen to every single voicemail. I mean, there is something really magical about us sharing our thoughts with you. You telling us the next step, the way you feel about it. It's one conversation leading to another conversation. And I think that's a really unique thing about what we're doing here. And that's why it has been so magnificent. And so please keep sharing your thoughts with us because it's definitely a co-created journey that we're on. That's right. And so today each of us is going to talk about what this season meant to us and what the

journey has been for us. It's so amazing for us three to have this podcast because it is like the ultimate for me, I should say, it feels like the ultimate accountability group. Some people have accountability groups that are like one person or three and I feel like our accountability group is the millions of pod squatters because when I think about, for me, the first episode of this season was the episode 165 when I talked about my diagnosis. I think it was called Glennins Diagnosis and What's Next talked about my diagnosis. I think it was called Glennon's diagnosis and what's next in January and

I actually In preparation for today went on a walk and listened from beginning to end to that episode and Why that is a big deal? Pod Squad is that I have never listened to a single one of these podcasts. Well, first I'll tell you my experience. I was walking, walking, walking on a sunny day and listening to this emotional, very emotional. I mean, this episode was, I revealed my anorexia diagnosis and where I was with all of it. And it's one of the most listened to episodes we've ever had,

which is so, I think, scary to me when I listen to something that is so deeply personal, and then I have this other consciousness of thinking about how many people listen to it. That's why I don't listen, because I'm afraid it will scare me too much, and then I won't do it again, and I feel like it's what I'm supposed to be doing on the earth. That makes sense.

Is living things out loud and my job is to make sure, and I think everybody's job is to figure out what their gifts, purpose, life is about, and then slowly try to eliminate all the things that threaten that thing from happening. And who cares what those are? Like if all the things that threaten that thing from happening. And who cares what those are? Like if those are things that other people can do, but you can't do, because it might throw you off what your purpose is, then you just don't have to do them, and that's just the deal. So I feel a little bit like when I'm listening to myself that I'm being haunted, I feel like I'm being haunted by some old version of myself that is still existing in the present for other people.

Imagine pod squatters if there were just little teeny versions of yourself, like in high school and college and four weeks ago just to run it around the earth that anybody could encounter at any time. It's weird. So what was it like when you were on the walk listening to it? It was amazing. Really? Yeah. Really? Because you don't listen because there is something deeply unsettling to you about listening to your own voice, listening to these conversations. Even when we have to like look at something, you look at the words and the transcript, you don't listen ever. Right.

Okay, here's two things that I discovered. Number one, I don't hate my voice anymore. Huh, well that's something. I don't hate my voice anymore. Well, that's something. I know. I feel like when I was listening to that diagnosis episode, I was like, you sound calm. I felt all right about the way that I sounded.

I also felt, you know what I felt proud? I felt like, wow, that was a lot, sweetheart. And I could sense the dusiness of the confusion and the shock in my voice, but I felt like good job, honey. Could you feel how much growth has happened for you since you recorded the episode? No. I think this is why these things are confusing to me. And so I let myself off the hook of this being some sort of, and then

there was the journey of the season, and that's who I was. And this is who I am as some sort of linear situation, because that's what I was trying to do. I was like, okay, I have to this, this episode has to be one where I like reflect on who I was and now who I am and I have to show progress. And I kept not working and I kept not knowing what to do for this. So then I said, no, no, no, this is just another snapshot. It's not proof of anything. It's not like I have to be different. I don't have to show progress. I just have to reveal who I am today.

And that's all I have to do forever. But when you listen to it the other day, did you notice a distance from that person you were in the snapshot of when you recorded it to the person you were when you listen to it the other day. Did you notice a distance from that person you were in the snapshot of when you recorded it to the person you were when you were re-listening to it? No, I just felt like, oh, she has been shocked awake and I'm still awake. That's it.

And then the other thing I noticed was how freaking beautiful you two are. I felt like, oh my God, I think sometimes when you're doing this, I mean, we probably get as real as you can in terms of a thing where you know you're being listened to because you are aware of that in the moment. I think sometimes you can miss how gorgeous the experiences of telling your things and sharing yourself and then having two of the most loving, brilliant, connected people on Earth listening to it. And it felt very like, wow, this is special. And I'm lucky

listening back. That's awesome. Yeah. And then I listened to Tisha's song after, which sometimes I don't listen to that. So I have a very hard time. Sometimes I'll walk up stairs and add these playing Tisha's music and I'm like, no, shut it down. Yeah. You can't just spring that on. So much healing. You can't just spring that on someone, you know? So I just allowed myself to be exposed to the whole thing and it was really, really beautiful. And so I don't want to do like a big progress report on the season because that doesn't feel true to me, but I just want to tell a little story that I feel like is

the truest I can come to the change in anorexia recovery for me. Okay, it has nothing to do with food actually. So little of this, it turns out, it has to do with food. It's about thinking and being. It's about everything else. Yeah, including food. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, there has been progress in terms of that. Yeah. My body is different. I've gained a significant amount of weight. I have slowly carried every single piece of clothing out of my life because none of it fits anymore. I have all of those things to report. But here's the story I want to tell.

So several months ago, we had an anniversary party for our parents. Okay, so the three of us planned a lovely 50th wedding anniversary surprise party for my mom and dad. It was at the restaurant where they had their reception 50 years ago. It was lovely, beautiful. I think there was like how many people were there, like 30 people, like just their best friends and our families. And this interesting thing happened in approaching the day.

Pod Squad, the thing about our family is that the way, one of the ways, one of the major ways we show love is through large productions of things. Some sort of major toast, some sort of huge presentation, some sort of big offering that has required a lot of preparation, and then we offer it to each other. And it's a beautiful fucking thing. It's the thing that my friends have always been like, wow. And it's why it makes me want to jump out of my skin and roll under a bus. Every time someone stands up and is like at the wedding reception, I'm just going

to speak from the heart. Like you're an asshole, right? Because it's built into us as, I mean, more Irish, the lineage is long with the like, I shall commemorate this moment with a oration that I have worked on and prepared and represents what this moment means in the full context of our ecosystem and your life and here it is and it's beautiful. And it's a lot. And that happens like when my kids finish a basketball season.

So it'll be something like that that happens with my parents or when there's an anniversary, it's every occasion is appropriately marked or else it didn't happen. Right, exactly. That's right. That's right. Hi, it's Elise Loonon, the New York Times best-selling author of Honor Best Behavior

and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread. I'm joined in conversation by those who can help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming. My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seas of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow. Listen and follow pulling the thread and Odyssey podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. So this interesting thing happened on the way up to the party, which was that I wasn't doing that. I wasn't writing anything.

I wasn't preparing anything and I was like, oh, this is weird. I guess I'm going to do it on the plane. You know, I wasn't like making my kids prepare something, which was like, wait, what, what the hell, what am I doing? I'm, this is crazy. It's a free for all. This is a free for all. Then we got to this 50 years and now we're thrown it away. Right. So then I get on the plane and and like, I'm sitting on the plane and Abby pulls out her computer and she's going to watch a movie and I'm like, I want wanna watch that movie with her. I'm just, I guess I'm watching a movie now.

And so I snuggle up and watch a movie with Abby. And then the movie's over and I'm like, I just, I feel like I just wanna read my book. And I keep not writing anything. And I'm like, what is gonna happen? Like, I am crazy. This is crazy. So then I get to the party.

And it's a small party and it's small party. And it's in this beautiful old room. It's like we're George Washington lived or something. I don't know. It's called the Gatsby Staburn. It's an old town, Alexandria. And it is one of the oldest taberns in America. It's where they got married and where also John

and I got married. Right. Right. So we get changed in a little bathroom at Gadsby's Tavern because our family has flown in and gone directly to the thing and I'm like, oh, I just don't have anything. This is me not having anything prepared. And so, people start coming and they're my mom and dad's

oldest friends, my Aunt Peggy, my Aunt Stephanie and my uncle Keith and all these people have been in our book so I'm mentioning them like, because in Beth, like all of their best friends. And I'm like, just hugging all of them and being there. And then we go into the room. And I'm like, I guess I have to say something.

And so I just stand up and say something welcoming. Like, hi everybody. It's amazing that you're here. We love you so much. I think I say something beautiful, like enough about my mom and dad. And then I sit down. And I feel a little bit bad. I felt a little bit like, oh God, maybe that wasn't like

honoring enough or maybe that wasn't good enough. And and then we go through the evening and the rest is just beautiful and everyone's having such a wonderful time. And I go up to my cousin bath at the end and we finally get a moment together and my cousin bath, she helped raise us. I mean, we love her so much. And she has known me since I was a baby. And she said, I just, I don't know. I've never seen you look so good and so calm and so peaceful. And I was like, ah.

And I was like, and then, okay, this birthday party was a surprise party. Okay, so my parents didn't- It was not actually a birthday party at all. Oh, oh, it was not a birthday party. It was an anniversary party. Well, which is the birth of their marriage. Okay. their marriage. Okay, so then my dad stands up, Baba at the end, and he gives a toast. And what I realize is something feels very different about the toast than what he usually does. And his toast are usually the best thing in the world. They're beautiful. He's an incredible

writer and good for former all things. But his toast feels different. I realize, oh my God, he's in the moment. He's very vulnerable. His words are less clever, but more real. He's with us. He's a little bit emotional. And responding. Everybody's emotional. He seems so with us and tender.

And it touched me deeply. It touched me too. I've never seen my dad like that in my entire life and delivering words to anyone. And I realized, oh my God, it's because this was a surprise. He couldn't prepare anything. So he couldn't perform anything. So he had to be here with us.

And because he was here with us, he wasn't in his mind for the whole previous two hours, preparing this thing that he was going to deliver to us. So he was with us. And after that night, all I could think about on the plan home is I was not amazing. At that, that, on that evening, I did not nail anything, I did not perform anything, I did not deliver anything, and I was so happy, and I was so with the people who were there, and those people who were there,

they noticed that, that I was so with them, and my dad that night was so with them. And my dad that night was so with us. And what I realized is the shadow side of this feeling like you have to perform your love is that you are not with. There's all the beautiful parts of that and I'm not discounting any of it. There's an end to that which has to do with worthiness.

Like the idea that I was worth just being in that space as I was and not performing anything and not delivering anything and just being and that that was enough and perhaps the best thing that that was the gift, my relaxed presence is for me the opposite of anorexia. And that's what I am trying to undo in my life is the idea that I am not enough just as I show up and that I have to perform or be or prepare something else to be worthy enough of the space I'm in. And that I have to, that love is not something to just drop into and be with the other. That love is something to perform. I think it's interesting because the way the world works is we all get trophies and awards and money for the performance of stuff. Yeah. And then we all feel,

why do I feel like I'm not really connecting with people? And so it's harder work and it's in some ways unnoticeable except the way that you feel when you leave. Yeah. And the moments that you have, I just think I wonder how many times I've been in situations where I've nailed something and people are like, just good. But like I wasn't there a lot. Well, it's like you said an untamed, you can be shiny and admired or you can be real and loved.

Yeah. Those speeches, those like, damn, I mean, those are gifts too, right? Because if you have the ability to formulate in words what other people also want to express but don't have access to, there is a virtue and a gift in that. But it also comes at a cost. The analogy is so strong. If you prepare something in advance, then you necessarily already know, or you've told yourself, you know, what that situation calls for. You've told yourself, situation calls for. You've told yourself, this is the script,

this is what I'm gonna say. So therefore the time that you're in and the people that are there and what's happening in the moment, have zero relevance to what you're gonna say. And not only that, but they can become a hindrance. The amount of times where I have felt like everyone has to be controlled and quiet and

paying attention because I am delivering love to you. The people there can be a stumbling block to you performing your love for them. And it affects the substance in that way. That's one of the most profound family moments I've ever experienced in our family because it has always been shiny and impressive, always. And both my weddings, people are like, damn, those are the best weddings, beaches by a dad of effort. And yet, like him in that moment, he would not have said what he said in that moment, had he prepared it. Nope. And what he said, he was talking had he prepared it. Nope.

And what he said, he was talking about his relationship with my mom over 50 years. He was talking about growing up and how his best friend, Uncle Tony, who was also there, who we didn't know wasn't our actual uncle until we were like nine, as we called him Uncle Tony our whole lives, and then pieced it together like, wait, who is he? Who's kid is he? And anyway, he's my dad's best friend. He was talking about how my mom was like, I want us to be best friends

and how for a solid decade he had no fucking idea what she was talking about. He was like, I have my friends, my friends are Tony. I don't understand the words you're using to talk to me about this. And how just in the past like 10 years, he understood what it was to be in partnership with my mom as his best friend. And he was talking about her in that way in a really beautiful way. And people her in that way in a really beautiful way. And people started clapping. And he held up his hand and was like, no, don't clap. The point is I was late. I was late, but not too late.

And it was so beautiful. And she said, and she said, and she said, not too late. She said back to him. And that for me is so true and so real. And how do you prepare to,

you would have prepared to like a beautiful, you know, gorgeous thing about my mom and all her virtues. But like, what was the truest thing about them is that they were true to each other and they fought through it and they worked it out and it was late. And it was not too late. And both. That's the best part. We're all going to be late. We're all late. I am so late on so many things. And my only prayer is that I won't be too late. Yeah. That I'll get to the place where I'm like, I get it. I get it. And I can be settled enough in myself to see it. I get it and I can be settled enough in myself to see it. And I think that goes back to actually being there. Totally.

Actually being in it. Yeah. What I felt after that night was, but that's too good to be true. I can't just... It's too good to be true. To just be there with my own non-amazing, normal self. What if that were true? What if that's all I had to do? What if that's all my people have ever wanted for me? And I believe that that is the case. It's true. It's always been true since we were born. But that's not what I'm shown.

We can all be forgiven for like thinking that that's not what the world wants from us, you know? What I listened to in that episode 165 in the beginning of this season was that Discipline was my God control was my God that I Was in a religion of interaxia that had to do with food, but also has to do with everything else. The way that I love, the way that I live, the way that I work out, the way that I work, all the things, and it had to do with the idea

that if discipline is your religion, then what is your God? What are you a disciple of? What are you trying to be with all this discipline? And I guess that that would have been some level of amazing or perfect, the discipline of perfection or our culture's idea of whatever that is. Success, all the shit, beauty, thinness, everything that the culture ever told me was success. And so then I was thinking, okay, what would I be a disciple of now?

Like, what would I be trying to go for? And I told my therapist that the kids these days on the TikTok and in our house have this word called mid. My dinners are usually mid. Yeah, to my family. It's mid. It's not great. It's not great. It's mid, it's not gonna get you arrested. It's not bad. It's not bad, but it's not great. Mid is just like maybe even a hair below middle. And I told my therapist, I think that's what I'm going for now.

I think I don't believe in the shooting for, and I don't mean bad, I'm not gonna be bad, listen that for. And I don't mean bad. I'm not gonna be bad. Listen, that party. It's not not doing anything. It's not not caring. We planned that thing. We got our asses on planes across the country

to get to that thing. We did the thing. My discipline is not fuck it. But it's mid, which means just in the middle and just okay and just showing up, but it also means midst. In the midst, when you are not performing, you are in the midst of people and life, and it is a gift to you because you don't have to do anything else. That's why it feels too good to be true. With being, it's a new definition of responsible.

I mean, it's what we talked about a couple of episodes ago. The word response sub-bull is able to respond. If you already know what you're going to do, because you already perfected it six weeks ago in this moment, then you are not responsible because you are not able to respond because you are pre-committed to whatever you're going to do in the moment. And that's why with responsible, you are able to respond. You have done the ground work. You couldn't have been responsible in that moment. had you just woken up on their 50th anniversary and said i'm gonna call him see what comes to me like you had done the work to prepare the party so that you could show up and be responsive in the moment that was called for so it is an end both in this middle. If you're being responsive in every moment,

then the moment you're in is prepared for you. Right? I think so. I think that's right. And I think that there is a way of living that I've been trying out these last few months, that I think if you are that I think if you are honest with your days in yourself, which means you're just like facing life for what it is and facing yourself, you are ready. I think if you're doing the work on yourself, you kind of do come to each moment with this bit of respect for the other human being and gratitude for the experience that makes you prepared. It's just a different version of being prepared. I can see it with people now. I can see the old version of being prepared. I can see it on the podcast. I can see me a year ago. I can see the people that come and are like, come hell or high water. These are the 10 things I'm saying. And I get that. I still

do that. Like I get it. That is the same idea as coming to a conversation with your spouse and your partner and you're like, this is my argument. And this is what I need you to know. And this is, and you think that's preparedness. And that's not preparedness. That's control, right? Preparedness is being prepared or being available or being responsible is being so present that it's a new moment you're in, and you can respond based on what is the universe is requiring of you in that moment, not what you are requiring of the universe in that moment.

Interesting that you're kind of putting in this context. I've never thought this way before, but overly preparing is almost a turning away from yourself, not being able to actually trust yourself. Yes. And be confident with, and the worthiness, but it's like also you're preparing because you're just like, I don't know. I don't know if just me showing up is going to be enough. Yeah. Is that what this whole like I am enough?

I honestly I don't really understand that whole like I am enough. I am enough. Everyone's screaming I am enough. I believe them. I don't know what the fuck I refer to. Is the I am enough like, if I have trust in myself and what I'm trying to do, that whatever I'm bringing to this moment is enough.

I'm enough right now to rise to what the situation calls for or to, you know, sink in to what this moment calls for or whatever the hell. Yes. I think they're talking about. I think maybe I just saw me the other day that had a picture of an I am enough at one of those home goods and it says,

here, here's how you can prove to the world that you're having a nervous breakdown for only $12. I think we all know that feeling of like, it's not enough. I whatever I just did, that wasn't it. That's the only feeling I've ever known. That is a person who, and I've told the story before, when I'm in New York, and I'm about to go to a meeting, and I'm scared shitless because I'm meeting a new person, and they're going to decide whether I'm good enough for this job or that job.

And the agent says to me, are you okay? And I say, no, I'm scared. And she says, it's gonna be fine. Just be yourself. And I say to her, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up. That is what that is. I wonder if that circle's back to not hating

this out of your own voice. Because I wonder if what we hate is to hear our self-pretending. I wonder if what we hate is to hear ourselves one degree off key from authenticity. Yes, that is it. I just used to think she's so scared. I don't like the performance of me. I think that's why I had to get off stages for this year. I haven't been on a stage for eight months.

I haven't done a speaking event eight months. I am starting to see light at the end of this beautiful tunnel of being able to do things again from a different energy. It wasn't the thing that was the problem. It was the me performing. That was the problem. I feel like that is a new discipline for me is mid. I am a disciple of mid. And I think that that's an interesting thing. It is a very interesting thing to be a professional speaker and a podcaster and then to be like, I'm not performing anymore because one could believe

if they were me that my job is to perform the rest of my life and be amazing and be whatever I need to be. And I'm actually not gonna do it anymore. I'm just gonna show up and my version of preparedness is going to be that I'm doing my work. And I respect so deeply the people that were inviting on here. And I have some curiosities and questions. And I am going to try to bring a version of myself that's just a calm nervous system and not panic

that I'm not enough and not a performance. We have an episode that we just recorded will be coming to you in September with Adrian Marie Brown that we just did. And this wild thing happened, which is Adrian, who we respect so deeply came on. And she was so present. And I don't know how to explain this other than from the first moment I saw her on the screen, she doesn't have to be prepared because she is prepared. How does every moment...

Do you feel when you're talking to her? Well, I started crying for the first time on a podcast. I started crying. It wasn't because of what she was saying. It was because of the clarity that I could see that she believed and knew with every ounce of herself that she was fully prepared for this moment in every moment. And it wasn't because she was remembering some scripture, she was delivering some lines, it was because you

could see in her presence what her life is like. She honors herself. She has amazing conversations. She reads, she writes, she's so in touch with her. I don't know. You could just sense who she believes herself to be and who she believes other people should set this major compassion and kindness and it just made me cry. But that is related also to your revelation of this year, which has changed so much for me, which is that every moment is the most important moment. Yeah. That is inextricably linked to that, because she was deeply attached to whatever was happening in that second that we were talking without the kind of underlying anxiety of, oh, but we're going to get over here to my work about X, right? Exactly.

This moment's nice and everything, but we're going to get to Y and Z. I'm going to be moving this over here to this thing. That is that trust. That is that being responsible. This moment is so important and I am attached to this moment, like it's the most important thing in the world, without needing to manipulate it,

yes, to be a. And without sitting here thinking, oh God, this is so stupid, I should be doing b. Yeah. At least for me, those are my two of my strongest compulsions are, okay, this is all nice and good. And I'll give this about 45 more seconds before we get to A,

which is what we need to be doing. Or let's get through this because I have B, C, and D that I need to be doing, and those are way more important than this. And the dignity of that is related to I have a trust at this moment that I'm in, is the moment I should be in. And not it means to any other moment. Right. And that means that people do not become means to any other thing.

And what's unique about her is that it's like she's beyond the practicing of that as a discipline, which I still am. I'm like, okay, double down. This is the most important moment. And I'm saying that to myself in order to grow up. I know the government, but I actually don't believe it yet. The same way I'm like entertaining this idea of like, is it possible to show up and be just believe I'm prepared enough?

Like I'm entertaining that theoretically, but I don't yet believe it. And so I think that she believes that. And so it's coming out of her. She's like, I want to talk about Abby Socker. Yes, it's great. Let's keep talking. I know.

And we were texting all through the soccer games afterwards. I think that what's so interesting is like we're getting to like the crux of as we get older, to just like surrender to what is, and like the vibration, and like trying to enter into the vibration of the universe that we are all just kind of down here. It's weird.

And when you're trying to control everything, it feels so constricting. Yes. And then when you kind of give up that control and you open your hands and you get curious and you start to find yourself in the flow of life, you'll bump into shit, but it's less severe. Yeah. And that I want that to be my version of love. That's the kind of love I was made for is just being here and being present. I have tried to be the version of love that is delivering something awesome for people and And it has made me very sick. And very un-present and very scared all the time. And trying to control the very people

that I'm trying to love so that they can fucking accept this version of love. I'm trying to shove down their thoughts. Like I don't want to do that to anybody else or to myself anymore. I actually want to live my days in this ridiculously luxurious idea that I can just show up and enjoy other people. You're doing it too. I can enjoy the moment, enjoy other people. Whatever that is is to me the opposite of anorexia. And slowly throughout this podcast season, all of the people that we have been interviewing in the conversations that we've been having, my personal agenda in all of those conversations

has been to get towards this idea, you know, whether it's Ross Gay with the Delights or Sonja Renee Taylor, all of these conversations have been an undoing of the performance and the control and an honoring of what is within myself and with other people. And I guess what it feels like is, it feels like more magic, it feels like more awe, it feels like more peace. None of it's perfect. At first it was a little anxious for you too. It was hard. I remember early days letting go of control is terrifying. It was really hard, especially like the addiction part of it. Like you're looking for any kind of sign that that way of living was correct

and the way that you're doing now is worse and you're getting whatever metrics you're using, right? And so you had to be really patient with yourself and having that front row seat has been really fun to watch because you are getting reaffirmed in the way that you feel rather than the outside world telling you what's right or wrong. Yes, yeah, the world is not going to tell a woman who's relaxing that she's great, except for the people who love her, except for the only people who matter.

Those people are going to finally meet her and be like, hi, there you are. ["The Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the

Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the Love and the What about uses?

What do you think about when you think about this journey of this past year and the pod and all that. I feel like there's a few things. I have one thing that I think I have shifted a little bit and that is I feel like when we started this a couple of years ago, I was in the place where I wanted to want things that were going to feel good. It's like a little kid being stuck in a house and being like you're not allowed to go outside. But I didn't even want to go outside. I was like, I wish I wanted to go outside

and play. Nothing stopping me from that. Also, no one's telling me not to go outside. I just don't even want to go outside, even though I know that would be good for me. And I feel like I'm just starting to catch glimpses of, oh, I actually want to go outside and play. And so even in those cases where I either let myself or don't let myself, it's nice to want that. You know, because before I was just like, I guess I'm missing that, that like even that desire to feed that part of me, it doesn't even exist in me. And so now it's kind of delightful when I want that. And sometimes I'm like, fuck it, I'll go do it. And sometimes I'm like, no, I won't. But even to have that to grapple with is a nice thing, because before I was just grappling with the shame and the kind of, you're totally fucked up, because you don't even want those

things. So that's good. I think something that I'm dealing with right now is just the very humbling reality that you touched on before about the myth of linear progress that I feel like I'm circling around a lot of things, like I'm circling around that kind of what it means to be human and to be alive and to desire play and can I cultivate that and you know my marriage and stuff in parenting and just kind of general peace. And so I'll get to this place where I'm like oh my gosh look I can look behind me and see it looks different than where I'm right now. And then suddenly I make the turn and I'm just moving around the spiral staircase

in the same shit over and over and over again. And so that can be disheartening because you're like, I thought it was going to be, I keep trekking up this mountain and then I'm at the top. But really it's just a spiral around the mountain and you're seeing the same thing over and over and you're just an inch higher. So it looks exactly the same. And it's very frustrating. But I think even just like, Oh, okay, responding to that, like this is what is to be expected. This doesn't mean that it's all for not. You're just, you're coming around the bend again.

Coming around the mountain. We're just that. Thank you for saying that. We were supposed to record this last week and I was like, oh, we can't. I can't. I'm fucked. Last week I was fucked. You're like progress report. Bad. Nothing's report. Not mid bad. Very bad. So thank you. I was coming around the mountain last week. And that's why I think it's good just to be honest about that too, because it's like, fuck, you can do all this and think you're cruising, man. And then, oh, it doesn't mean you're not cruising. Just means that cruising looks a little different than you thought it might look.

And sometimes you're definitely not cruising and that's fine too. Again, like responding to your moment being like, this is where I am. Okay. Again. What needs to happen right now? Not given where I thought I should be or but like where I am right now. Yeah. What should I do with this, my own particular amount? And how long it takes? How long? I mean, I was thinking about what my 15 year old self who was going into the mental hospital for eating disorder, dreaming of her future life.

What would she have thought of someone who was so refined by the time she graduated? The good news that we made this two week investment, the good news is 15 year old. When you're 47, you're gonna start learning about this shit. Just keep going around that mountain for 35 years. You'll get there. Yeah, again, we're all late.

We're late, but not too late. That's all, right? It's all. It's all, and that's one of the ways that I've been newly appreciating marriage. It's like Susanne Stabila says that the worst things about us are the best things about us, and the best things about us are the worst things about us.

I mean, thinking about marriage and thinking about like, God damn, it's interminable. And then I'm like, holy yeah, it's interminable. Like, I need a really, really long runway to figure my shit out. And if the expectation was that we were going to like button this up real quick, it wouldn't happen for me. And built with a long runway. And so in a way that's really frustrating that you're like, we've been at this for decade plus. What the hell? Then it's like, we've had a decade plus and we're still not there. And we're still working.

Like that's such a relief. It's like I get to have the luxury of years to figure this shit out. Mm. And that is nice. It's not like you're gonna get fired after your second email. Because the needs improvement column hasn't adjusted.

So that's nice. And then coming around the mountain theme. And then I'm really psyched, I'm psyched out of my mind. To throw in an elf reference reference. an elf reference reference. When we come back in September, I really want to dive into this concept of tension versus conflict because I don't think I understood that correctly for a very long time. And I'm starting to have these ideas. I was just reading this business book that my friend Bonzo recommended. And because music has too many feelings, I just listen to business books. But it sounds awful.

Yeah, it's well better than feelings. It's called the five dysfunctions of a team. And it is talking about tension versus conflict It is talking about tension versus conflict and about when there isn't a baseline of trust, meaning that the other person on the team or the other people on the team trust that you believe that they are capable of great things and that any of the conflict that you bring is brought in the interest of the team and isn't a personal attack. That if you don't have that level of trust, then no one will bring up conflict. But the absence of conflict means there is tension. Yes.

Because you either have no issues, or you have conflict, or you have tension. There's no such thing as issues without conflict and without tension. You have to choose your own adventure And also isn't there no such thing as no issues? Well in my experience. Yeah, I mean right. I mean, I'm willing to keep people people for the I am enough people Maybe they have no issues people issues. Yeah, I experience There has never been a lack of issues. And so the idea of reimagining conflict as that that is the work required to grow. Yes. That's all conflict is the work required to grow.

And in order to have conflict that works, you need to have trust that I can bring anything to you and say, Glenn, and that thing we did last week, that was fucked because whatever. And you're going to be like, hmm, okay, yeah. All right. Yeah. She believes in me. She loves me. She knows I do amazing work. And so she must be talking about the how we need to address something on the team. Great, perfect. If you don't have that, then you're just going to exist in an evidentable sea of tension. And tension is the unwillingness to go to the work that makes relationships work, which is conflict.

And it just comes out and it exists and it pervades everything. And so I really want to talk about that next season because I think that I have recognized that I have lived in a lot more tension than I knew. And then I have misdiagnosed things as other things that were in fact just like a swimming sea of tensions. It's cool. It's like you have to have that basis of trust to be able to feel the safety in any kind of conflict.

I also think that we just need to come up with a whole new word. Me too. Conflict is just too, it's too scary. Negative. It's too negative. We need a whole new word. conflict is just too, it's too scary. negative. It's too negative. We need a whole new word. And the trust piece because I mean, this totally rings true with every team I've ever played on.

We were so good at saying and giving feedback and getting feedback because we all just knew that we all had one goal in mind and we trusted that that was the most important thing. And it was like, whatever means to be able to get to that bigger goal is necessary, and you have to trust each other, that stability that allows the conflict to flourish. And in friendships and in partnerships, it's all that, right?

Like if you don't have the trust, then you intuitively know you can't handle the conflict. That's right. So you don't bring up the conflict. And then you think, okay, well, we don't have the conflict. So that's good. But you're not recognizing that you have a stew that your entire relationship is marinating in tension. That's right. Yeah. Because you can't just avoid the conflict and avoid the tension. That's right. No. Tension is just conflict that's all holding its breath. Tension is internalized conflict that no one is externalizing. Which then that tension completely undermines whatever trust you are trying to build so you could have the conflict.

Because that comes out in passive aggressive fucked up ways, right? The tension does because it won't just cease to exist. And so then it's this cyclical nightmare where you're never even going to develop the trust that allows you to have the conflict. Exactly. I can tension to me is louder than conflict. I can feel tension. Conflict to me is talking. Intention is screaming. Neither of these things are hiding. Like they're all present. You can feel all of them. If you're lucky, I mean, I think you have developed a healthy relationship with conflict, which is why tension feels toxic to you. I think the vast majority of us are so normalized in tension that the worst case scenario is it doesn't feel like shit to you. The worst case scenario is it feels normal and typical and like, this is just what life is.

That's right. That's how I grew up. And honestly, I don't think I've ever been in a relationship before in my life that I trusted like you. And so I'm able to actually have conflict with you. I'm able to bring up conflict with you. And it's because of that trust factor. But in almost every other one of my relationships, I'm just tense. I'm just eaten it. Yeah. Wow. I love that. That's a, Z of a thing for I'm excited to get into everything to it. It's really to like it responsiveness. If you're actually being in the moment, then you're like, ooh, I sense this thing. I'm responding to it. And it's not like I didn't have a preconceived idea coming in and saying I'm going to perform

this thing or I'm going to get this done. It's like, oh, wait, we have a thing here. Yes. It's here. I'm going to say the thing. Yes. What can I, you know, it all goes back to that same idea. Yeah.

All right, babe, what do you feel about this season of the podcast of We Can Do Our Things, and in your life. I think what's so beautiful is to watch how much it's changed the three of us. And this year specifically for me, you know, I'd loved our Tracea Ellis Ross episode. And then one of the more recent ones that's been really like kind of digging into my bones and my DNA is episode 226 July 11th, the N Aogram, why you are the way you are with Suzanne Stabil. All of our conversations, they leave impacts and they leave marks on us.

And watching you go through this year, I've been able to see up close. And in some ways, it's like a mirror for me of how I have been responding to you over the years. I've noticed, and I've really realized, the first couple of years of our marriage, we were so in love. And at the time, I really believed that we were meant spiritually soul to be together. And I still believe that. But at the time, I thought that you were my like other half,

that you were like fixing me, that you fixed my issues. And this year has made me perfectly aware that we found each other so that we can help each other heal our issues and become more fully human. So watching you kind of go through your therapy and talking about it, I'm usually like a couple of months behind you doing things because I like to have somebody else like Guinea pig for me in some way. Sorry to have somebody else like Guinea pig for me in some way. Sorry to compare you to a Guinea pig. But I don't know. I just remember early on in our marriage, I was so attentive. And I was a part of your anorexia and your anxiety and the way that you worked in the world. And I was trying to cushion you from the world in some ways. So when your anxiety

would come up, I was right there to fix it. And I'm good at that. It's like something that I feel like good about myself for being able to help people and fix some of their issues. But what I didn't know was I was kind of enabling you to not get well in some ways. And I think that you're stepped towards healing and the trust and the foundation that we've built over the years, it made me start to really look at myself and maybe some of the things, some of my shadow sides,

like in the Enig any gram episode of Suzanne, anger is something that sevens don't really have a relationship with. And that couldn't have hit me more squarely in the face if she had tried. It's one of the most true things somebody has said to me in a long time. I'm always silver lining everything. And I think one of the reasons

I feel like and I found this year that we have found each other is because we both need to fall more deep in love with our own selves. We found the person, we built a foundation of a marriage, we have the trust to create not just not like a separation, but to create a space for each other to develop a deeper love for ourselves and a deeper understanding for ourselves. And so after the Suzanne episode, I decided, okay, I'm going to get in a therapy and figure out some of the shadow sides that I like to not explore. I've been in therapy before in my life and it's like meditation for me. I do it and then I don't do it.

And I'm committed to doing some therapy on trying to become a really full human. I feel lucky I have a beautiful life and there is a part of my personality and my existence that I don't tap into. I don't tap into my anger ever. I did it on the soccer field. Yeah. I really did it on the soccer field. Yeah. I really did it on the soccer field.

I could make up a story of what that other team was thinking and get pissed about the story that I thought that they were thinking. I could do that every day. Yeah, I'm like, oh, that's a crazy idea. You know, that's my whole show every time I drive fast someone. And for some reason, I haven't been able to develop that in the real world since retiring and I think that that eventually, it can come out sideways. Well, I wonder if that was your channel, Abby.

I wonder if that was like, you didn't have to feel anger in any other parts of your life because you just funneled it all over here in soccer. What was very effective and useful to you in that way and you're able to expel all of that from your body. Yeah. For sure. Maybe not at the source. For sure. For sure. That's poor people who received it. But then you just let go of that whole expulsion area. Yeah. And you were just left. It's not like the anger went away. For sure. I just think that like this podcast has changed my life in so many ways. Like thinking

about the way that I think about things, thinking about the information we hear from all of the guests. I feel like bit by bit, it's changing me in this really beautiful way. And it's the way that I kind of think about athletics and the way that I just like, I did it bit by bit, every single day. And I think that that is something that,

even if you're not implementing anything that you are listening to, it's getting in here. Yeah. It is getting in here in my DNA. And it's giving me other ideas and other options around the way I might wanna be in the world. Just like even stuff that's happening with our kids, I notice the way that I

respond is different than I would have five years ago. I would have been a lot more reactive, rather than contemplative, and then have a proper response. I just think you two are my favorite people, for sure, You two are my favorite people for sure. To be able to do this is such a gift, but honestly, we've had so many brilliant people on this podcast that are changing my life and hopefully those who are listening. I feel an immense amount of gratitude. I feel really excited. I have therapy today. Oh, really?

Yeah. You're doing today. Well, I started last week. Oh. Ooh, really, it's during today. Well, I started last week and it's very exciting. She asked me on Friday, how would the people in your life describe you? She was asking me so many cool questions and now we'll be able to get into the meat of my life. And I'm not in crisis. I'm not like, ah, something's wrong, help.

I'm like, just come around the mountain. Yeah, I'm just, I'm coming around the mountain and I'm just trying to figure out if there's something I'm missing that could make me live more content life. We love you, Pod Squad. We really do. We really feel so grateful. Your time is so precious and that you choose to spend

these hours with us every week is not something we will ever take for granted. We will continue to bring our full selves. Mid, our full, mid selves. Our full mid selves, right? If you, I can't promise that. I plan to bring my excellent self. Dear God.

So, I don't buy it. I can't give a midship. When she says it, I'm like, something in me is like, no, I can't. Well, that's great. Thank you for asking. Well, circle around to you up there. You're just a little bit far from her.

I'm not saying you're wrong. This is my problem. I, that's great. Thank you for asking. Well, it's a surprise to you. Yeah, up there. You're just so far away. I'm not saying you're wrong. This is my problem. I think that you're right. Okay. I'd like I said a few minutes ago, I'm a few months behind you. Okay.

All right. Give me a few months. And I'm so excited. This is where I thrive because my teacher self gets to play on the next season. So please help tell us who you want to hear from. Tell us what you want to talk about, talk to us. We are 747-205-307 or WCDHT-POD at Gmail.com.

And for the next two weeks, we have four podcasts that profoundly impacted us personally. We are explaining why those podcasts impacted us so much and then re-airing them after that explanation. So for the next two weeks, come back and listen to the four podcasts that just woe woe woe us. And then after those two weeks, we will be back on September 5th with our brand spanky, hanky, spanky new season. We love you.

We'll see you next season. And until we come back, don't forget that we can do hard things. Bye, bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard

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