We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 234. Glennon’s Diagnosis & What’s Next

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Glennon reflects on the episode that has been the biggest marker of change in her life in the last five years.  Glennon shares from the messy middle about her new diagnosis and what’s next for her recovery. If talk about eating disorders and mental illness helps: Listen today. If it triggers: Skip today. CW // eating disorders If you have an eating disorder, you may find the National Alliance for Eating Disorders a helpful resource: https://www.allianceforeatingdisorders.com/. For other recovery episodes in this series, check out: 172. How Glennon Knew She Needed Help: Recovery Update  182. Glennon Update: Lessons from Therapy 194. Glennon Finds Her Healing Partner 199. Why Glennon Says We Should All Be In Recovery 200. Don’t Tell Glennon to Love Her Body To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everybody, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are re-earing probably the episode that has been the biggest, maybe marker of change in my life in the last five years, episode 165. It's called Glenens Diagnosis and what's next. It's the episode in which I tell you all about my anorexia diagnosis. It's the only episode of We Can Do Hard Things that I've ever listened to from start to finish. And I chose it to re-air because I felt proud of it because I felt proud of how honest I was. I felt proud of how unbelievably beautifully Abby and Amanda held the truth that I shared. And I felt amazed by your reactions, by the space that you all held, by the stories you told us in response

on our voicemails and in emails. And I think I chose it because this episode and the response was the first time I felt about this pod, like I've always felt about my writing, which was, there's some magic here, because I get to be, as honest as I can possibly be. As honest as I can possibly be, and the response to that is that other people will be as honest as they can possibly be, and in that I'm the one for me. What are you doing? I just feel like my eyes look tired. Just trying to get them to wake up.

I have it. Geez. Yeah, good. Yeah, that really woke me up. Thank you. You're welcome. Very appreciative of you. Well, hello, pod squad. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things and welcome to 2020. Three.

We are going to start this year with a doozy as we doozy. And accidentally this is becoming a tradition for us that we can do hard things where we start the year by making a devastating announcement devastating announcement about my mental health. Okay. So what we're going to do today is I am going to tell you, Pod Squad, what is going on in my life, a recent diagnosis that I got that has changed my life in many ways. And I have been kind of alluding to it in some episodes from last year, but I didn't feel ready to talk about it. And then over time, it became impossible for me not to talk to you about it,

because it is so, it's everything that's going on in my mind, in my heart, in my life right now. So every interview that we do, I'm seeing it through that lens and I'm talking about it in terms of the work that I'm doing and it's becoming impossible for me not to talk about it to you.

What's interesting is that I only talk to four people about this. And you, Pod Squad. You haven't really talked to me about it that much. So I'm nervous and excited. I'm excited. I'm going out to hear from you because I don't really know that much. Also, do we want to give a little trigger warning? Yes.

This isn't a trigger. This is like a grenade. This is a content blanket. Okay, so this is a content. Yes, blanket. Yes. The content weighted blanket. If you have mental health stuff, if you have eating disorder stuff, and if listening to someone talk about it,

very openly and honestly, and in the moment, and in the raw way, and an unpolished way, if that hurts you, stop listening. We will be here when you get back. If it helps you stay. Okay. Come to the right place. Also, I need you to know that I have requested that my therapist, who is a renowned expert in all

of these things, is going to listen to this episode and take out anything that she feels like is inappropriate for this me to say or for this community. So there is some protections here going in. Stay tuned. Immediately following this will be the notes that my therapist had for me after listening. So you know, our friend Lizzie Gilbert always says that you write about or work on what's causing a revolution in your heart. And this is what has been causing a revolution in my heart. And I don't know how to do this.

I'm not a person who compartmentalizes at all. So I don't know how to do this work where I'm bringing my whole self to it and not share this. And maybe if I waited a year, I would have a better perspective, but I also just think in a year I'll just have a different perspective and not necessarily better and I like the idea of Talking about things more when we're in the middle Messy middle of it Yes, I love that their this world is too full of before and after exactly

Like going through it. You're like, oh, I have drawn my conclusions in my life lessons and I will impart them unto you as opposed to like, here I am in this mirror. Yes. And if I waited till I was an after, I haven't, I've never been in a, I don't know what that is. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Who's an after? I'm alive. I'm in the middle of it. I'm here. So last year at this time, I shared with the pod squad that I had had a relapse of my bulimia and that I was feeling a little bit lost about it and not

ready to make any big moves about it. Just on the landing, I called it, go back and listen to that one if you haven't listened to it. That I wasn't ready to make any moves, but that I was at least standing still on the landing and not descending any further down the staircase, but I was not ready to ascend to take any steps because I was too freaking tired of dealing with this particular mental illness my entire life. So I stayed on the landing for 10 months. I just did nothing. I'm just a hyper aware of the fact that I was going to have to start doing some work. I was open to doing

some work just not that day. Do you feel like the 10 months was long or short? Like do you think? Now it feels like a blur, like short. And then Abby and I were at this weekend with some dear friends. And one of our dear friends was talking about her child who was anorexic. And she was talking about the program that her child was in. And she said, an offhand comment, like, well, obviously she does things like,

they have to eat three meals a day without any talking about it, without there's no decision making. they have to eat three meals a day without any talking about it without there's no decision making. They have to eat three meals a day and then, you know, and they said it like it was an obvious thing to me since I had been in the eating disorder world for so long. And I stared at my friend like that's the wildest thing. Are you serious? That's amazing. That is something I should do. I spend most of my day trying to decide whether I deserve to eat breakfast or lunch because of whatever happened yesterday or because of what. So I spend a lot of my problem solving every day in my mind thinking about whether I should eat or not. And I thought what an amazing idea. Just to decide you are going to eat. That would take away 80% of my mind anyway.

I think what's interesting about that conversation you had was that you didn't know that. Exactly. Exactly. What was amazing about that is exactly that, Abby. It was that we went into a bedroom after that and I was like, how is it possible that that sounds revolutionary to me? I've been in the eating disorder world for how long? And this idea that she said to me,

offhand, like I would know it, I pretended to know what she meant. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. Like it's like mental health 101. Exactly. Like this is not advanced work. Yeah.

Right. It was eating disorder 101. And it sounded to me like an incredible revolutionary idea. And so that dissonance was confusing to me because I thought, if people know that stuff, maybe there's a lot of other stuff that would help me that I don't know. Can I ask you a question? Was the revolutionary part about it that one would eat three meals or was it that there was a rubric, a structure that you could adopt that would eliminate a lot of the mental, English, and gymnastics in your head always.

It was that. It was the second. It was the the ladder. I never know. It's former. It's the worst. It was the trick about that ladder sounds like later. It's the or latter. It's the worst. It was the trick about that. That ladder sounds like later.

It's the later one you said. Oh my gosh. That's so good. Thank you, baby. Wow. Jesus. Wow. Well, no, they don't get anything else from this pond.

They'll get that. Okay. So what sounded shocking to me about it and such a relief that I wanted to cry was like, wait, it's like someone decided you've lost your privileges of deciding whether you're not you should eat. That's not, it's above your pay grade. So we have a system for you. And the structure liberates.

You structure liberty. I thought, oh my god, what if there's other things? Still did nothing. Okay, I'm just like looking at the stairs. I tell Abby on a way home from that weekend, I should call that friend and find out who these people are that are working with her daughter. But of course I did nothing. So then Abby, one day reached out to them and said, please give me the information for the people. Because you weren't, you couldn't stop talking about it.

You were still so amazed. And I could tell there was a little hesitancy. And I did it unbeknownst to you. And then I asked you, I said, would it be okay if I contact this woman, she had already contacted me back. And you're like, yeah, of course. And I was like, awesome. And then I didn't write her back, right?

You didn't. Right, yeah. So finally, somehow. I put you on an email somehow. I connected you. Somehow I got into contact. I connected you with the doctor that she gave. Yeah.

And then you took it from there. Yeah. And interestingly enough, in the days before I was to have that first meeting with this doctor, my bulimia came back hard. Okay. Was it already scheduled? Yeah. Okay. Ooh. Was it already scheduled? Yeah. Okay.

Yes. It was scheduled. It makes sense. And I was like, what is going on? Why am I doing this again? Remember when you told me? What did I tell you? You came into the bedroom because every single time you've confessed or whatever told

me about your relapses, you come in and you're like so soft and sad and you're like, I did something bad. That's what you always say. I did something bad. That's interesting. And I knew what you meant. And I said, what happened, you know, and you said, I relapsed again. And I knew that this meeting was two days away. And I just said, come here, you're just, you're so, this is, this feels so natural to me that like you would want to get like your last bits in before you actually start going to do the real work. Yeah. And like we held each other and you were so sad. Yeah, it was. I didn't understand what's happening. And then the doctor that I talked to first told me that that is the case that

very often right before somebody goes into the treatment that they actually believe is going to take because they're considering telling the truth and doing the real work. It's like the last gasps of like, yeah, it's your protective self is like, you're, they're going to take this thing away. Yeah. Right. It's getting high on the way to rehab. That's right.

Yeah. Exactly. Right. So here's what happens. I meet with this doctor. She's totally amazing. Someday I'll I'll tell all of you all who these people are. I'm just not ready for all of that yet. But I meet with her. And then this this two week or longer, it was so long this intake process happens. Basically, I'm just like surrendering myself. I'm like, it feels like the people who like commit a crime

and turn themselves in. That's how I felt. Like I told the whole thing from time I was 10 to now, all the best that I could with where I'd been all that time. And then for the first time, they started doing all of these tests, like doctor tests, like tests on my body and like my period. It's just medical tests. And so it was this very blood test,

you blood test, all the things. You all the same. All the things. So. Which you did all on your own, you didn't require my help in setting up any of the stuff. I was really impressed by that. I mean, they really held my hand a lot, but yes.

I know, but you'd walked yourself through that. I just feel really impressed. Thanks, Gabe. So we have our first big meeting that is like, this is our findings. You have to sit down with the doctor and, this is our findings. You have to sit down with the doctor and she tells you your findings. And you're diagnosis.

Right, right, your diagnosis and your plan. So I sit down and please understand, Pod Squad, that I have come to these people and said, I am a bulimic and I've been recovered for this long and now I'm having relapses and I just need to understand what the hell and how to get these relapses of my bulimia under control so I can be less scared and freer and not in danger.

And the doctor sits down and she says, okay, this might be jarring. So what are diagnosis of you based on your history and all of your medical tests is that you are anorexic. There are a couple forms of anorexia and one is anorexia with purging, okay? But she says you are anorexic. And I, I mean, if I could, there is no way that I could explain confusion, the shift of my identity as blemic, blemic, blemic, an inter-exec-inter-exec-is a totally different thing, okay? It's like a different religion. It's a different identity. It's a different threat. It's a different way of thinking, so confusing. And it shook me very deeply.

And I did not believe it. I was like, that's just wrong. I didn't say that, of course, but I was just like, uh huh. Okay, I guess we'll just get through this somehow and then I'll find my way out of this ridiculous situation that I'm in. Then at the end, I said, I feel like this is an amazing overreaction. I don't, I do not think that I'm anorexic. I know anorexic people, I see what anorexia looks like.

I don't feel like I look anorexic. I know anorexic people, I see what anorexia looks like. I don't feel like I look anorexic. I don't feel like I, and the doctor said that is a very anorexic reaction to have. And I was like, oh, I feel stuck right now in this conversation because I feel like what you're saying to me is that if I say, okay, I believe you, then I have anorexia.

And if I say to you, I do not believe you then I have anorexia. So I don't know what to do right now. And basically what she said was, I am an expert on this, we've done all the tests. If I were a doctor and I went to a person and said, you have a cancer or a small on your back, the reaction likely wouldn't be, no, I don't have a cancer small on my back. You have a cancer small. That is not a normal reaction

to a doctor's diagnosis. And then she told him really, really interesting little tidbit that was like, me telling you that you're anorexic and you saying, I don't think I'm anorexic because I know a person who's anorexic who's, you know, five times skinnier than I am or whatever is very similar to calling a firefighter and a firefighter coming to your house and getting out the hoses because flames are coming out of your house. And you looking down at the sidewalk and saying, I've heard that when houses are on fire,

the sidewalks bubble and my sidewalks not bubbling. So could you go home now while the firefighters are saying, but there's flames coming out of your window. So I finished that meeting. I told Abby that night, or maybe it was the next night, we were in the kitchen and it had been kind of a quiet couple days and Abby was cooking something and the indigo girl's song, Power of Two, came on. We're standing by the refrigerator and you just kind of hugged me and grabbed me and there was there's that line in there that's like, I'm stronger than the monsters beneath your bed.

Stronger than the tricks played on your heart. Look at them together and we'll take them apart and I in that moment, that's one of our songs, Power of Two. And I in that moment was like, yeah, it's okay. Abby's here. She's got me. It's going to be okay. And then you pulled away from me, and you said, I can't do this for you. Oh. Oh. Oh. That was really brave Abby. Holy shit. Do you remember this? She pulls away from me and says,

I can't do this for you. And it wasn't accusatory. It wasn't like, you have to do this. Like it wasn't like that. It was like she was like, this is too much for me. It was like, I do it if I could. And I can't do this for you.

You have to do it. It was like her having this realization in the moment. First of all, she knew what I was thinking in that moment. She knew I was thinking she's stronger than the monster's beneath my bed. She's got this. And I think when you are a person who is a little, I don't know how to describe the word,

like is a little wobbly, you find people who are not as wobbly. And then you somehow feel like you are us. Like I am not just me, I am us and you're not wobbly. So I'm okay. And it was Abby's way of saying, oh my god, this is up to you. And this is like scary news for both of us, but this is up to you. I can fix every remote. I can go through the house and follow you around and make sure things everything's working, but I can't do this. And that was, if I could explain to you how chilled to the bone I was by that moment. I did not speak for the rest of the night.

I went to bed very early. I laid there like, fuck. I've never felt so alone in my own body. So I am the sick one. Apparently, everyone's telling me. And I'm also the one that has to fix the sickness. Like, how? How? So. And for a pretty codependent couple, that was a really hard thing to experience through because I think I realized that maybe my proximity to you was enabling some of this. In some way, not that it's my fault or anything, but I just think that it was really important to say that out loud for you and for me.

I think it was incredibly courageous. You're the one who got her connected to the doctor. It was almost like that was necessary, necessary but not sufficient for her to get well, but she wouldn't have been able to get well unless she or started, unless she really took it on as hers. It's like getting sober. You know, when you make it about you and someone else, it's never, ever, ever going to work.

Yep. And I, I pride myself. I mean, that one of my greatest identities is being your partner and being able to care for you. And in my mind, I think some ways better than you would care for yourself. Well, yeah. And so it's like, this was a hard thing for me to say because I had to let go of this part of my identity and get how I get my worthiness and how I feel and express love. Yeah, for you to say say I can't do it.

That's hard. It was a really... I just knew in that moment what you were thinking and I knew... I had to say it. I had to be out loud because you needed to take complete ownership over this process. Yeah. Yeah. Hi, it's Elise Loonan, the New York Times' best-selling author of Honor Best Behavior,

and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread I'm joined in conversation by those who can help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming. My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seas of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow. Listen and follow Pulling the Thread, an Odyssey podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. It was a big shift in thinking to me because I was like, and I don't know if anybody in

the pods can relate to this, but I was like, I did it. I'm doing the best I can with what I have, and I have surrounded my children with the people that they need, and I have created these units of health and strength, and that's good enough. And then I realized, oh, I, inside here, if I don't figure this out, I could die. And then what good is all of this, like, unit that I've created for my kids and my, it was just a very interesting night. Yeah, you've built a really beautiful life to leave early from right Yeah, so so then the next morning I picked up the book that this doctor had written

Okay, and I started reading about Inner Exia and The grief that I had the night before or the terror, I guess, that I had the night for just intensified tenfold because I started reading this book about what an inter-exix life looks like. And I don't know how to explain the feeling of reading things that you have that you thought were part of your personality and you were. And reading that they're actually just a collection of symptoms of an f-ing disease. So you know I don't

know how to explain all this to the book, but it was explaining what a hungry brain, how a hungry brain walks in the world and sees the world and experiences stress and experiences anxiety and all the things that people who are in our exit do, like create intense ridiculous overwhelming boundaries, like becoming over prepared for everything, including every moment of life, living with high, high anxiety, trying to be unimpeachable in every way, just being extremely, extremely disciplined. It's like partly,

anorexia becomes like a religion of control. Mm-hmm. As you're reading that morning, I'll never forget it. You just kept going. Holy shit. Holy shit. Just you couldn't believe it. It was like you were reading a biography of yourself. And somebody saying this is actually not a biogagricut, this is just eating disorder brain. Yeah. And it was so weird because it was like, well, first of all, it is stunning to be a person whose life and work is about self-examination. Okay? Like, is about discovering the nuance and my new show of who we are and talking about it every day and then not know this information about yourself.

It's like humiliating on a level. It's pretty impressive also that you could ignore this part of yourself. I know it is interesting when you think about I'm reading this book about Innoxia and it's all brand new spanking new information to me and it's blowing my mind as if it's the first time I've ever heard of any news order. And the first meeting I had with the doctor after this when I was open to this idea, she looked at me and I had, I was in my office, I have 4,000 books behind me because all I do is read books. And she said, have you read all those books?

And I said, yeah, I have read all these books. She goes, do you think it's interesting that you do not know the first thing about Interact. All of those hundreds and thousands of books, and you haven't read one book. You have avoided information about this disease, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day, about the other day I'm sure there is some deeper psychology to you knowing at some level and avoiding it like hell. And if you thought because you were diagnosed when you were 12 or whatever, with bulimia, you thought that the periods where you were quote unquote sick, were the periods where you were exhibiting that and that the periods in between where you were exhibiting that and that the periods in between when you were exhibiting us, you were just yourself. Exactly.

So your only point of reference was that is the indicia that I am sick when I am purging. Exactly. And all the other times is just, I guess, who gluttonous. And so you didn't realize that the whole time you were sick and the way of thinking in between those periods of purging was also diseased thinking. And it was just punctuated by the bouts of purging. You just thought that was you. Exactly.

And more than that, I think what happened is that I solved my bulimia with anorexia. Okay. Like yeah. I, so a bulimic and I was bulimic. That's like a no-brainer. Yes. But it's like becoming a dry drunk. If you're comparing it to alcohol, it's like you don't ever figure out. I was horrifically blemic for a very long time, and then I got pregnant, and I was like, done. I am done with the shit. I am done with the shit. I never, not once, went back and really figured out

what the hell happened to me. I just wrote, I was overly sensitive, and I, and this is just who I was. And I didn't excavate, I didn't look at things, I didn't do the work. Had I done the work, perhaps I would have discovered more of this, but instead I just used control and discipline and willpower to crush my bulimia.

And that happens all the time. Think of the people who have been traumatized by an infidelity and then they go on and have relationships with people who are emotionally unavailable. So they never have to risk having an intimacy in a breach again or make themselves invulnerable to connection.

And they're like, look, I have this relationship, I got over that. But you're like, did you? Yeah. Because you're creating a world in which you never actually have to go to that place again. Yes, that's what I did. Yeah, believe me, it was obvious. The purging, it's just an obvious, that's the thing

that makes it, anorexia is a little bit more confusing to diagnose. But in retrospect, the anorexia is obvious too. I know, I kind of feel a sense of responsibility of that too, because it's clear I'm not trying to self-centralize this, but we do so much interrogation of like, you were a little kid and you're going through all of this and how come we didn't all bring it out in the open and deal with it together. And it's been very clear that your restrictive controlled eating for years has not been

a source of ease or joy or peace for you. And I look at pictures now. Part of the embarrassment of it is is looking at myself and feeling like maybe it was obvious to everyone else. I can't even think about that. Like I look at pictures now and I'm like I look at pictures of me before the untimed tour and I'm like, what the fuck? Oh my God. Like, it looks so obvious. It's like embarrassing to me. And you know, some of the other thing is like, the heart, my heart rate is way too low. My period, my hair, my, like, I don't know,

all of the bones, all of these things. And also the couple of people that I've told, what makes my heart go bliff is that when they don't look surprised, they're not like, wow! They're like, huh. It feels like, bulimios is like being an animal.

And then I fixed it by becoming like a robot. And I feel like, you know, thinking about the embarrassment of it, thinking about, okay, this writer of Untamed was like anorexic, the whole time I wrote it, like it's so freaking weird. was like anorexic the whole time I wrote it, like it's so freaking weird. But I just keep thinking about how hard it is

to be both the detective of your life and the mystery of your life. Yeah, that's fair. Cause a mystery's job is proving to mystery. Exactly. That's the mystery's job. Exactly. And I am good at it.

I am like a great criminal. I am a great mystery. I'm like, no, there's more turns. And it's like the mystery of me just outpaces a little bit the detective of me. Cause I'm a really good detective too. I'm just not as good as the mystery. Yeah, and you're a really good writer.

So you're like, how it works is, as long as the mystery stays just one step ahead of the detective, then the detective can be good and so can the mystery. I have a question. So you said there's this embarrassment thing and I wonder what's underneath embarrassment of it all because I know that your intellectual mind and your body and your emotions around it, they're very heightened. But I do think embarrassment is giving a lot of out there power. So what would you say is like underneath the embarrassment that you feel or that you've been feeling around? Because, you know, the patriarchy has its fucking talents in all of us. And so

the fact that you do this excavation of yourself and the fact that you want to be honest and work into the minutiae of yourself, you didn't write untamed and at the end of it are like, well now I'm untamed and I'm free. Well I think what I did is what I wished for other people to do, which is that I wrote the truest, most beautiful self I could imagine. And that freedom, I can taste it. It's right there. You know, it's why I'm willing to do this work because I'm doing this for my 50 year old self.

That's why I keep telling myself. I am doing all of this right now because I love my 50 year old self so much already and I want her to be a little bit freer than I am right now. And I hope, I truly, at the moment, I really hope that this is the last mystery. I mean, I feel like my mom is like, take this step and the path will appear. You're like, I'll take this next step, but only under the assumption that it's the last

fucking step. I feel done with surprises. I feel like, you know, five years ago, I thought I was a straight, bulimic, Pisces. And now I'm a queer, anorexic aries. And I just feel like, I don't wanna next year to go to some therapist and find out like I'm actually a Republican or something. I just

I feel like that would be a plot twist. Right. That's when I'd come to the pod and say it's over. Women in their 50s and 60s right now are giggling because they know that there is still so much more to uncover but let's just think about today. Let's think about today. Yeah. Today. Yeah. What's also under the humiliation of it. And I'm getting through that. I mean, humiliation, it's humble. It's of being of the ground. Humus is the root of that. It's, it's, we're all made of dirt. We're fucking dirty. Like we're messy. We're dirty. Yes, you are. Being, being humble is just admitting that you don't know exactly from where you came and where you'll be going.

And that's where I am right now. I think that being a woman who has made herself public and talking about this kind of thing and knowing what might and will come on the other side of it because I'm so grateful for the pod squad right now. Like I feel like I'm gonna speak for myself to you because I want you to know. And then I'm not speaking to anybody else about it. To family meeting.

It's a family meeting. And because of that, they will say what they're going to say. And that's just like part of it. I haven't worked it all out, but it's just part of the fear. Right. The embarrassment. And also, I'll say to the people who would say, oh, telling everyone to get free and she was anorexic the whole time, that is a person who doesn't understand what untimed is about. Because it's the same person who would say,

she wrote love, wear, and the left or husband. Of course, when you get to the path of the love warrior and you understand the next step is that you do it because it's the thing you need to do. And if you stayed because you were the love warrior, you actually wouldn't have been a love warrior to begin with. And you go through the untamed process and you're peeling back and you take that brave next step.

And the next step appears and you either tell yourself, oh, I'm not going to take that because then that will give someone ammunition against me. Then you're just as cages you were before. Like, you have to allow yourself to take the next step and next step. And that is actually what untaming is. That's exactly right. And I also want to say this because there is the element of part of the embarrassment is like, you know, the refrain

of untamed is, you're not crazy, you're a goddamn cheetah. So getting to this point in my life and having yet another whack-a-mole manifestation of mental illness come into my life, because that's what it feels. It's like, my life is like it's addiction it's blemia it's depression it's anxiety it's it's like it's just it just keeps popping up in different forms. One could start wondering if it's like. I am crazy and I'm a god damn shit. I'm not right. Yeah. So there is that element, but I will also say this. I am thinking about all of this on a very wide level.

I am thinking about the fact that I have always been an extreme version of what is happening to all of us. And there is a part of that, and I'll talk about this on another episode, but I'll talk about how this treatment is going for me. What I will say is how the treatment is going for me is a little bit like when I lost the dogma of Christianity. And I was so discombobulated that I didn't know what to do. That is what this treatment of anorexia feels like to me. It feels like the discipline, the discipline,

I just kept thinking in my first couple months of treatment, analyzing the discipline with which I have led my life, the discipline in body, the discipline in beauty, the discipline in body, the discipline in beauty, the discipline in work, the discipline in parenting, the discipline to, and I just keep thinking, if you are committed to discipline, that means that you are a disciple of something. What the fuck am I a disciple of?

And what I think that I am a disciple of, or what I think that I am a disciple of, or what I think that anorexia could be looked at as a discipline of, is white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy. Stay quiet, stay good, stay perfect, stay hustling, stay grinding. It's like, you know, that quote from Naomi Wolf that I've always loved so much, that a woman's thinness is not about beauty. It's about obedience.

It's about being a soldier, a warrior for control. And there is something underneath that that all of us, I hope, I don't want to make disciples of that. I don't want to be that. I don't want to live in fear of anyone in the world seeing proof of humanity on my body, seeing proof of joy, seeing proof of indulgence, seeing proof of deliciousness, seeing rebellion against all of that. Yeah, but when we are addicted to this idea of thinness, it's like refusal to prove ourselves human as women. I was walking on the beach that I've been doing a lot of walking and I was thinking about. I was thinking about.

I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about.

I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. I was thinking about. And I just kept having this thought of like, I'm going to have to replace my religion of control and discipline. And it made me think of Liz and how she used to tell me why I used to have such a problem with this to 12 steps. And because of the paid shareholder ideas there and she would say, you just have to decide, you have to create your higher power. You have to create one that you can get behind following.

And so on a deep level right now, like that's what I feel like I'm doing. I'm doing treatment, but I'm also wanting a new God that is not control, that is not, I'm not good enough, that is not self-restraint, that is not self-denial. I think what's so interesting about that of everything you just said with disciples of weight, patriarchy and all of that, I think you're disciple of control and you came to that because you were so desperate because of your love for your kid to control your bulimia and you controlled the hell out of everything and you have so much love for your family, for this community, for everything that you thought, that if you just applied what you knew about control in every aspect of your life, you could keep yourself safe, from believe me, from everything, you keep your people safe.

And that could be what you could do to know how to get there. And when women are controlling themselves, when people are controlling themselves, what they are not doing is reaching their natural intelligence. Sonia Renee Taylor tells this beautiful story about Mary Ann Williamson. She retells it from our framework of radical self-love and Mary Ann Williamson talks about an acorn falling from a tree and that no one trains the acorn to grow into a tree. No one controls it and teaches it how to be a tree. It just has the natural intelligence and we trust that that is true, but we do the opposite with ourselves. We control the shit out of ourselves and when We control the shit out of ourselves. And when we control the shit out of ourselves, we cut off at the roots of our natural intelligence. And when we cut off the roots of our natural intelligence, what grows in place of that

is white supremacy. Because what is going to take that down is unleashing our natural intelligence, our full power, our full liberation. Because when we do that, there will be no structure of white supremacy being upheld. And so what I might suggest you become a type of disciple of is your own natural intelligence, your own appetite, your own joy, your own going towards that, like you've always said, what feels warm, because that is the thing that you have controlled out of yourself.

I think that, first of all, thank you for everything you just said because it's so freaking beautiful and exactly right on. And I think we're saying the same thing about the last part. When I think of creating the higher power, the reason why Liz is saying create it yourself is so it's an expression of your natural self, right? It's not like, I'm making up this God

that I think we'll then be flying in the sky. That's not it. The higher power is everything that you can think of in terms of beauty and goodness and freedom. And then that higher power is inside of you. And so when you're looking for wisdom and joy and your best natural expression, you are looking at your truest, most beautiful,

best natural expression as your own higher power. I also think that it was probably really confusing for you for so long because you were getting positively affirmed with your control. And of course, yeah. And your success and the kids are well adjusted and good and all of the things were making it really hard.

It was just like all this evidence was stacking in the control's favor. Well, the world loves a sick woman. The world loves a sick woman. The world loves a sick woman. The only negative symptom of a woman who fully controls herself is that she feels crazy. Yes. And that negative system helps the outside system. And so you have to say, notwithstanding all evidence to the contrary, that is affirming the shit

out of my controlling of myself, I don't wanna feel crazy, cause you're not crazy, You're God damn Jesus. Like the craziness inside of you is is whatever your particular thing is. With you, it was controlling the shit out of yourself, which was making you feel crazy, because you wasn't you. It was hunger brain. Right. Because following directions, if you're following directions well of Our culture you will be sick and feel crazy. Yeah

But I will keep insisting that it's just following directions. It's just being an A plus student What the world tells us women should be. I think we'll stop there. And I want to continue this conversation for the pods wide because I do want to tell them what it has looked like for me. And I want to assure them of what the work that I'm doing. And I just want them to know right now. It's too much to get into

right now. But I do want you to know that I'm doing all of the work. And I do know one of the things that, when I was sitting on that couch reading that book that I read was that anorexia is the second most deadly mental health disease in the world, second only to opioid addiction. So we understand and I am working towards being a much freer 50-year-old. And at the risk of sounding grandiose, I am wanting to do this work for me, but also

for all of us. I so value and I'm constantly amazed by this community and just the fact that we all get together here together and I know that listening to my voice means something to you and I want to help us all not be disciples of pain. You know, I've been sitting here and for whatever reason, I never do this, but I was just like listening to you and thinking and I've been right here with you watching you go through this. And I'm just so grateful to whatever kind of God you are creating right now, and the learning and the difficulty that I have seen you go through during this process is for me, feels miraculous. And you've taken a huge leap of faith in yourself. And, you know, I think I'll speak for the pod squad here.

Like we want you to stick around for a long, long fucking time. And I was just saying little thank you prayers to whatever God is because I think that so many factors had to be kind of perfectly laid in this path for you and for you to actually hear or acknowledge that these little whispers life was giving you takes an extraordinary amount of courage and you are rewiring your brain and you are redeveloping a sense of yourself. So... Well, I remember Alex said, a sense of yourself. So, well, I remember Alex said, because I was like 46, seriously, 46. We're going to start this shit over. We're going to end 46.

And she goes, yeah, but this is probably the first time you've ever been stable enough in your life to do this kind of work. When were you going to do it in the middle of your last marriage? When were you going to do it? When you were building this thing? When were you going to do it? the middle of your last marriage? When were you gonna do it when you were building this thing? When were you gonna do it when you were jipping with children? Like this is the first time where you've had someone so stable next to you that you were able to fall apart.

So, you know, it's important not to judge the timing of our lives because it's maybe exactly right on time. Yeah. And I just want to say back to you what you've always said about there's no such thing as one way liberation. And I have just noticed about myself in the past couple months that watching you be so brave with this has changed me too.

And it's been like an exhale of not only about you and saving your life, but like what what I'm allowed to do with my life and my hunger. And I just think that what you're doing is so personally powerful. And I think that me as a pod squadder, that what you're doing is revolutionary because I think we can all take a deep breath and be like We're not doing that We're doing a new thing. Yeah, it's doing a new thing. I Love you both. I love you pod squad Thanks for being here with me today. Thanks for listening

Let us do a new thing. See you next time. Hi, everybody. I'm back with a new segment that we're calling. This is what Glenn and Sarah Piss said to tell everybody after listening to all the things she just said about English order. So I am asking my amazing therapist to listen carefully for anything that could be triggering or wrong. In what I'm saying, because I'm fully committed to making this a helpful, safe conversation to have and not anything that could be hurtful.

So my therapist listened to the episode that you just listened to, and here were her notes. First of all, she noticed that when I told you all about the diagnosis I said that my doctor said you are anorexic, okay? My therapist said that she would highly, she highly doubted that that's how my doctor would have said it to me, that is likely what I heard, but what the doctor would have said was that I have anorexia, that I am a human being who has anorexia, who is suffering from anorexia, but that we don't, she doesn't like to put a disease name after I am, which is so interesting that I did that because my entire book is about never putting anything after I am. So she actually said the words to me,

what we tell ourselves is important. So instead of saying, I am anorexic, what I would say is I have anorexia, and maybe one day I will not have it. Okay, another thing she noticed is that I said, you know, I was bulimic, and now, well, maybe I was never bulimic enough, I'm anorexic and she said, these things morph, okay? It's just like, this could be just like gender or sexuality and things aren't on a binary, things aren't this or that, that often these things just morph and change in our lives.

She also says she does not call anorexia disease, she calls it a disorder that we can be reordered from. She also noticed, which I thought was interesting, a little bit of me disavowing my sensitivity is what she called it like I was saying, well I thought I was just sensitive, but actually it was all these things in my family and in the world. And she said, maybe it's an and both that I actually am an extremely sensitive human being and that that should not be discounted.

And then it's actually a very strong, beautiful thing to be. So there's an and both there, not an either or. And then the last thing she noticed, which I love, is that she noticed when I talked about learning that being in our exit is a lot about control and discipline and wanting to be, what am I gonna replace that with now?

What am I gonna replace it with? And what my therapist is often talking to me that is my tendency to be extreme about things. So I am either this or that. And when I'm trying to undo something, I tend to do the opposite of that thing and go the opposite way in extremes. And that what is going to replace that discipline and control is balance. Not that I'm looking for the absolute opposite of that thing to run towards it. I don't know, day four with her where I told her I was going to cut all my hair off and get rid of all of my clothes. And she said, maybe we slow down and look for balance because in lots of

ways rebellion is just as much of a cage as obedience and what we're looking for is this elusive balance. Maybe one day. Thank you, Potsquan. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side I chased, desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're advent and heartbreak So man, a final destination

That we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe the best people are free

And it took some time, but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, a final destination We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain

That our lives bring, we can do a hard thing. This world finished her rose and heart breaks on my way. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stop that skiing direction. That stopped asking directions Some places they've never been To be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.