We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 238. How to De-Stress: Relaxation Intervention for Amanda (and You)!

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

Abby and Glennon attempt a Relaxation Intervention, which Amanda sabotages – resulting in a riveting discussion of why we can’t (don’t) de-stress, and how relaxation can help us ALL feel a little more human: Why so many of us have lost our playful, silly, absurd selves – and how we might recover them;  The “Relaxation Homework” Abby assigned to Amanda;  How over-functioners can channel their superpower into being fully alive;  Why it’s not our job to ensure things won’t fall apart, but to accept that they absolutely will;   And the one “tracking” tool Amanda will use to find more moments of connection. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Wow, I'm so excited to say welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Welcome back back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome this is a backpack. Yeah, because we took a little break for a few weeks.

We were on a break. We were on a break. We wanted to, I don't know, just rest and take a breather. We also didn't know that podcasts were supposed to have seasons. So I think our first season was 250 episodes. So, it's... So, here we are back with you. I'm feeling really grateful. I'm also feeling grateful that we took the rest.

That felt good. I'm feeling very, very grateful for the tens of thousands of voice mails and emails and comments of suggesting guests and topics. We have been calling through them. You all have amazing ideas and insights. And thank you for co-creating this podcast with us by giving us all of those. We have been working on those during this break

and we have really exciting things coming up thanks to your ideas. So thank you so much. Yeah, and you know what it makes me think when I read all the pod's squadders ideas of what we need next and what we need to talk about next and who we need to have on. It solidifies the idea for me that what we're doing with this podcast is kind of like journeying together. Yeah. Because if you all could see the list of suggestions that you have made to us on people and topics compared to the list that we have internally brainstormed of people we need and topics we need they

are almost identical. It's amazing. Yeah there's like an 85% overlap between what we have in process the conversations we were already initiating, and what was recommended. It's wild. It's like, oh, wait, we're aligned. Yeah. And it's like when you're journeying together, you all think of the same supplies that you need on the journey because you're all facing the same thing. And so your lists are similar. And so it's really made me feel like, oh my god, we are all walking together this life. So this season's gonna be awesome. And one of the things that we think about a lot is that we have topics we're all journeying together on,

but what has become clear to us is that because of this work we're doing, we are all three, Abby, me and sister, sort of working on something different in our own personal life, each month, each season. We're think of them as like tent poles right. So like last season for me it was very much about eating just sort of recovery and embodiment and I'm still there and working on that and what that means in my life. And Abby,

you talked about your kind of digging in more to like your side. Yeah, I mean, it's been really interesting because I've been way more vocal with you around recently, around when I'm feeling upset. I know. Yeah. Good for you and how much into therapy are you right now? I'm like, I guess four weeks in now. But actually something happened the other day.

We were on a little family vacation and I'm like the person in our family that deals with the organization of the trips and getting us to where we need to go and kind of the logistical thing. And so we were having this conversation and I have never really broken down in front of our kids of like overwhelm. I just handle it. I have trained that, I have trained overwhelm out of me.

Yeah, I bet you have. And this thing was happening where they were thinking about kind of re-adjusting the plans of what I had already spent lots of time doing and planning and spending money on. And I just like put my hand in my my my face in my hair. And Tish goes, are you gonna cry? And I was like, no, but I started talking in my voice. I started cracking. I was like, you guys just don't understand how much effort and work goes into planning around this family. And so switching

plans is not easy. And this was like, I'm so sorry. You know, like right away. And it was like really cool that I was able to say it out loud. I don't know. It was amazing. So beautiful and important.

I was wishing it for every podcast. She was like, I will show you how I feel about this as a parent and how hard it is. And I will not act like it's not hard. And it was like every bit of entitlement sucked away from the table. It was like, oh, my mom's a human being too. It was so important and so good. And you never would have done it a year ago.

So we're going to be exploring Abby's delving into the uncomfortable feelings. And for sister, we wanna set up this episode today. How would you do that? What's your goal for the season? My temple is getting more in touch with my humanness, trying to access ease and in terms of not hustling hard enough, but being important parts of the human experience that I am lacking as opposed to, you know, like evidence of me killing it, not having those. I'm trying to see not having those as evidence that I am depriving myself of the human condition.

Yeah. So to that end, Pod Squad, you should know that we gave sister an assignment. But what happened was he gave sister a relaxation assignment and she couldn't or didn't or refuse to do it. And that is what sets up today's episode. We know you're gonna have feelings about today. So grateful for sister's vulnerability. And maybe some of you are on this similar journey and we wanna hear from you. Let's go. And to be loved we need to be known. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Today is going to be really interesting, hot squad, because we don't know what the hell is going to happen, because it has opposed to all the other days where we know exactly what's right. Right. Well, we usually have more of an idea, but we need to tell you about a recent experiment gone. Well, the word is awry. I will tell you that for the last 30 years, I have been reading that word as awry because

I've never heard anyone say it out loud. I just really thought in books every time something went askew, it went awry. And I just figured out that that word is actually a rye. You've never heard someone say something's gone a rye? I have. And I thought that was a word. And I also thought that there was a word that was out of rye. What's the other word that we've just recently come across that you've been pronouncing wrong in your head all these years? Okay, so sword. these years. Okay, so sword. So what? Not a weird one. I just feel like sword is a very common place.

No, she was reading to us the other day. I'm crying. And she just said, sword. And our friend Alex was sitting with us, she's inter-opterd. He said, I'm sorry, did you say sword? Yes. And she said, what? And had no idea it was sword. I love you so much. Okay, just before we jump into this very important podcast, since you did that, I'm gonna do this.

I'm doing it again. I may have told the story in the beginning, it's worth it to tell it again. Yeah. We're driving down the street with the girls in the back seat. One of the girls says loudly, oh my gosh, look at that cute red wheelbarrow. And Abby bursts out laughing.

Like she's laughing right now. And I'm like, what's so funny? And she says, did you hear what she said? She said real barrel. I mean, it is a funny word. It is. And I said, why is that funny? And she said,

because it's real barrel. It's real barrel. And then everybody proceeded to laugh out loud at me, but in my defense. Yes, it makes your defense. It makes way more sense to be a wheelbarrow than a wheelbarrow. You fill up a barrel and you wheel it away. That's a bad word. What are you going to do?

Fill up a barrel? What's a barrel? Anyway, no barrel has ever been filled. One of those ones that is correct, but at a deeper level incorrect. I know. Yeah. That's the difference between common sensical people and smart people. Well, it's also that story just kills me too because it's like the proof of Abby's motherhood evolution because the fact that she was hysterical laughing and mocking the child. No, I mean, karma, real quick, just circled back

because the girls were dying. And they never let me forget it. This is a common story that goes around the dinner table once a month. Yeah, look at the wheelbarrow. I still live and die by it. It's wheelbarrow. No, I can't remember. Which one is it? It's wheelbarrow. It's wheelbarrow. It the wheelbarrow. I still live and die by it. It's wheelbarrow. No, I can't remember. Which one is it?

It's wheelbarrow. It's wheelbarrow. It's wheelbarrow. It's really, really. It rhymes with sparrow. All right, so. It rhymes with sword. I just want to say I like it sword.

Because it makes me think of like a word. So you can use words as anyway. OK, sword feels like sexual or something. Sword. It's like a provocation. Okay. Sword. It feels almost like what you do with a sword. It's an animal. An animal. An animal. Swash buckling sword. A lino bagel. All right. Oh, that reminds me of Winnebago. We got that wrong. We did an episode with Michelle Zonner, and she was talking about words that she loves, apropos of maybe this discussion,

and she was talking about how she kicked and Winnebago invoked this like visceral reaction in her. Thank you to the pod squad who wrote into us and said that Winnebago is actually an indigenous word for a group of indigenous folks who are the Winnebago. So we did not know that and we failed to identify that. So thank you for illuminating us. Cool. OK. Here's what we're going to do today. Today, we have our second episode that wasn't. You might remember the first episode that wasn't.

It was episode 147. And we had brought a guest on, and the guest behaved like an asshole to someone on our team. And so we canceled it in real time. And then the internet tried to figure out who it was forever. And they still are trying to figure out who it was. Will we announce who it was? We will not.

I can't imagine ever doing that. We are not into publicly shaving people, usually. It was just me, apparently, in life and sister, because today is our second episode that wasn't because Pod Squad here's what happened. A couple months ago, we decided that we wanted to do an episode about relaxation and Amanda, okay? Abby came up with a bunch of ideas

to help sister relax, and they were like assignments. They were things such as go for a walk. Go for a walk without headphones. One hour before going to sleep, figure out the next day's schedule. When waking up, try and think about getting 30 minutes of activity in your day. You're just gonna admit the one where she told me to put my entire head into an ice bucket for as long as I can pull my back.

That one. You're like, go for a walk, play on your schedule. Immerse yourself bodily in an iceberg. Okay, well, she was trying to give you some different ideas. And actually that is really helpful. All right, so one of them was a bit of like a cold plungey situation, but just to put her head in ice. Now when you say it this way, it sounds weird, but yes, turn on two songs and dance to

them. We even picked songs for you. We picked a energetic song like You Want to Know by Alanis Morissette to get some rage out. We picked Easy on Me by Adele to get some self-compassion in. We thought that was great. We scheduled a 30-minute relaxation time after lunch every day. Abby said, you can sleep, you can just lay there doing nothing, no scrolling, no email, do nothing. And she said, if 30 minutes is too long, just two, five minutes. Then she suggested a short meditation, some short breath work. Then she said, no working after dinner. That was another idea. Really, she said afterwards, please note from this list. One thing that is important is that multitasking isn't real.

So you can't do these things while also doing something else. Okay, she tried to protect you from yourself there. Now, because she knows you, also, she added another little thing at the end. It said that you could score yourself each day on how well you relaxed, because she knows that you like to have some feedback. I mean, no, not feedback like some goals. Hold on, it wasn't about how well she did. It was how she felt.

Oh. So that was my idea to be able to track in the couple of weeks that she does this, if in fact this help is helpful or not. Okay. So Pod Squad, in short, Abbey Center, a list of possible nodes of relaxation. I will tell you that the reason we did this is because a dynamic in our lives, work, home, relationship is that Abbey and I worry that sister is not relaxing enough. Now I, through much therapy, I'm taking responsibility for my feelings about it. I'm not saying you don't relax enough. I'm saying,

I tend to worry that you're not relaxing enough. Okay. So that doesn't mean that's your business. That's my business. Yeah, it really is. And also, I just want to side note, all of the list of nine possible things that sister could do, I'd said, please choose to read a four of these to incorporate into your day for two weeks. Right. And note, some of them were like, just do nothing for five minutes. They're not extreme support resting. It's not like a 70 silent retreat. Go for a walk, go for whatever. So Pod Squad, today was the day we were to get together and discuss with you how it went.

Yeah. Okay, today was the report on how it went. So yesterday we come to the meeting where we prepare or what's going to happen today and Sister says I Didn't do any of it Fair I said I have a lot of today to do my relaxation homework. Okay. Oh my god You're gonna crave it all in one day

I fucking love you. All right, and by the way, I want to know how many things were on your list because that's bullshit. I know you did not black out the whole day for relaxing. I know you've never done that in your life. So lies, lies, and more lies. You sit on a third of lies. Okay.

Now, Pod Squad, why this is interesting is because it is the first time maybe since second grade that sister has been unprepared. So we ask questions, we say why? Why? Why did you refuse to do the homework? Here we are, Pod Squad. What I want you to know is that today we are going to try to get to the thing beneath the thing. Now you might say to yourself, well, you told her to do something get to the thing beneath the thing. Now, you might say to yourself,

well, you told her to do something that she didn't want to do. No, you would be incorrect. When we proposed this idea, sister was very open to it. She thought, that's a good idea. Well, I will say you said that will be funny, and you are right, it be funny. And you are right. It is funny. Maybe this is what you meant. Did you know you weren't going to do it?

I don't know. I don't remember exactly the same level of engagement that you remember in my response to this idea. I think maybe I was like, yeah, that would be funny. And look. All right, so you didn't do it. All right. All right. I have some questions for you. But you do. Okay. Do you feel as if rest and relaxation and we'll get to what the hell that means because maybe our problem is semantics It might mean something different to everyone. I think that's important Do you feel like it's something that is missing in your life that You want to make room for

Or is this only a codependent problem that your sister and other sister are identifying? I think I am missing a key piece of being a human. So yes, I think part of my other problems in life are stemming from my missing key piece of being a human which is like time that is not pre-allocated to identified priorities. What are the other problems you're talking about? So I'm just thinking of something that happened last week. I usually wait until it's without a doubt too much to be like, it's too much. So I wait until I'm at a 20 to be like,

oh, okay, too much. And I don't build it in as a process to avoid that happening. So I remember one time my therapist, like 10 years ago, was like, if life is parallel lines, right? You are always operating on right up to the upper limit and right up to the lower limit, like emotionally capacity, everything. And so any little thing pushes you outside of the margins and it's just like having zero margin.

And I think that I do do that. I think I maximize to the margins as part of my regular life. And so I'm like, I can do that. I can do that. I can do that. That puts me right within my margin, right, up to the end. And so anything that is extra just spills over. And so we had just hosted three events at our house

in a row for like all the, it's like the Sunday night, then the Friday night, then the Saturday night, and then Sunday, the LaCrosse girls party, the baseball party, the other baseball team party, the whatever. So it was just two weekends that were not weekends. And then the week is so crazy. And so Sunday, I was like, Oh, I can feel myself overextended right now. And so we need to have a couple hours of nothingness. And so I preserved that couple hours of nothingness. And so I preserved that couple hours of nothingness and the four of us were just kind of hanging out for those two

hours because I allocated it for that because I'm like, I need two hours of nothingness. And we were just playing around and it was so nice. And I felt like a little humanity and lightness in me. And then later that night, I was like, you know what, I feel like making out tonight. It was so weird. And then later, I was like, oh, that's gotta be connected. Right?

When I am not feeling like a human, why would I ever wanna do something so deeply human? As that. Really interesting. So I'm just wondering, even if not for just having the lightness, if having a little bit of the lightness opens up desire or capacity for other human things. Hmm. Just for also a little context, the list that I made you, some of the stuff was trying to help to induce even more productivity in some ways. So taking a five minute rest or a 30 minute rest, whatever you can do after lunch is actually supposed to create more productivity in the rest of your work day. But everything on here is, I think that's a really good way of saying it, is to try

to gain more humanness. I think that is beautiful. Let's stick with that for a minute, because I resist and reject the idea that rest is something that I'm going to do so that I can get back to productivity. That feels so miserable to me that I reject that version of rest. And that's not my need. That's not what we're talking about.

I don't need a tool to be more productive about. I don't need a tool to unlock the part of the pie chart of my life that I don't live in. Yes. And so that I understand deeply. It's like, to me, it's getting back to the creature self of yourself. It's the the animal self, really.

It's the whatever the capitalist industrial hustle complex has created this robotic part of us. And honestly the things you're talking about are beautiful things but even school things, all the parties, all the teams, all the whatever. These are things that really kind of pull us out of ourselves and there is something about returning to your creature humanity that has to do with what you said rising inside of you. It's like an aliveness, electricity, it's like this tingling that happens sometimes, that busyness distracts you from.

That sometimes I think the reason why so many of the things on the list have to do with stopping is not just so your body isn't moving. It's because when you're slower, you tend to look inward. There's like an inwardness that you can feel as opposed to being constantly distracted by what's going on in the outside. Yeah, I guess to me, if there was something on a list that could save me, I would have been saved. And I think it's probably different from a lot of people. I don't know, or maybe the same. It's like, I live and die by a list. And I make three different lists today. It's like the morning when I intend to get done halfway through the day, I figure

out what I haven't done and what I need to do. Then I have my PMPs, which are PM priorities, that I do after the kids go to sleep. There's not a list that is going to deliver to me my humanity. And maybe that's hubris, Like maybe it's like, well, if I incorporated these things into my life. But to me, it's a lot like the analogy of working out and eating healthfully. No one doesn't know that moving your body will help your body. No one doesn't know that eating a box of Girl Scout cookies makes you feel like shit. It's not a lack of knowledge that drives us to eat a box of Girl Scout cookies and to not move our bodies. It's because something else inside of our lives is pulling us or pushing us in a certain way. I know I feel better when I move my body.

So the question isn't, well, have you put it on a fucking list? So you do it. The question is, what is going on in your life and under your life? Yes. That is making no space for that

and more importantly, making no desire for that. Because when you desire something enough, you make space for it. So for me, it's like making no desire for that because when you desire something enough, you make space for it. So for me, it's like the cart and the horse when there is humanity in my life and when there is like almost a self-respect of centering my human experience within my own human life. Then what will naturally flow from that is doing the things that I've already known for decades are the things that make me feel better. It's not a lack of knowledge.

But like desire and habit have to be formed in a lot of ways. And all of my training, there was never a single day that I wanted to go out and train so hard that I felt like my body was going to fall off. Yeah. And so I understand that we want to get to a place in terms of our psychology and our humaneness that the desire comes. But so often, it just doesn't. And I think so many of us live in this space that you're living in. I mean, I do it every single day. And I just do behavior activations

because I know the outcome is gonna make me feel better. I don't wanna go to the gym every day. I don't, every single morning, I'm like, and I just make myself do it. And I feel better afterwards. And I know that. And so over time, the habit, you can turn it into some sort of quote unquote desire.

I actually desire the outcome more than the actual beforehand dread totally. So you're arguing for the list. The discipline leads to desire in a kind of cyclical way. Yeah. Because like, then your your body desires that thing because it's experienced that thing. When it doesn't experience the thing, it doesn't desire it. Well, it's like food for me. Yeah. I was like, oh, food isn't enjoyable for me. But then I had to like discipline myself to eat three meals a day. And now I'm like, oh my god, I love food. It did not understand. And that has made me more human. When you said, if this

were going to save me, if more things on a list were going to save me, what is it that you're saying you need to be saved from? From not being me. I think that I am a playful, silly, funny, absurd person. Yes. And over the last, like, several years, that playful, silly, funny person has been inaccessible to me. Wow. And I'm almost like the reverse of that. Like I almost resent when it's playful and silly around me because I am like, well, must be nice to be playful

and silly. And I'm probably triple like that because I'm like, I know that is actually my true self and I can't access it. And so I'll be damned if you are able to access it around me. And I think this is probably an experience that many, many particularly women, but probably others feel is like the sense of loss of who we essentially are because of the requirements of what we do. And so I think a lot of people were really funny. And I think a lot of people were really silly. And I think a lot of people were really playful. And then you look back on who you were 20 years ago and you're like, what happened? And I think what happened is that we all took our responsibilities very seriously and good on us

for doing that. And also, that would be tragic if our whole lives were spent functioning and not being, you know? And I think I've been functioning really hard for a long time and not being. And I only remember that when I have like, glimpses into that and it feels good. And it's usually honestly, obligations that force me into a situation where I have to be non-functional, that reminds me. So like, some of the time, the schedules are all off.

It's like, well, the kids are home for these two hours, they're not normally home. And I've decided I'm going to like, greet them and be with them for that half an hour. And it's even just like that pausing of the functioning to just be has like a little spark of me come back, which then shows up later spark of me come back, which then shows up later, if I'm just being silly. And I'm like, oh, that, that silliness at 6 p.m. for 30 seconds. I'm talking 30 seconds of, I noticed myself, like being an idiot and dancing, just to like horrify someone in my family.

Was a result of having to get up earlier in the day when I didn't want to and do a thing that was unproductive. Wow, I'm trying to figure out at what point the feeling that the doing and responsibilities overcame the who you are. But can you identify that? Because you said just the last few years. I'm trying to feel like if there's for people

for whom this is an issue, which I think is everyone, like we all know, I have different, similar, but in different ways with the anorexia, it's kind of like anorexia, is this something that is just because of work and family life? Or is it something inherent in you that would come out, regardless of what responsibilities in particular that you had? I think the latter.

You think it's something in you that would manage us. I think it's a slippery slope. I think it's a slip for people like me, and I know there's a lot of you listening. For people like me, it is a slippery slope, and it starts a little bitty when you're like friends in high school are going out and you're like, I'm going to, I got to study for this test or whatever it is. And you get very practiced at negotiating yourself out of life, negotiating yourself out of frivolous things

in order to choose the delayed gratification things. Wow. I think it has been just like a slow, slippery slope to where it's again at the margins and you're like, how did I fill all this shit up every day? And for the next three months, There's no more places to add. So like, if you had one kid and you were like a meditation teacher, do you think that you would fill to the margins, your meditation classes and you're like that's what you're saying. It's not 100%. Okay, so it would be the most miserable. It's not 100%. Okay, so it would be the most miserable.

If I had no kids and I was an unpaid flower picker, I would be the most miserable, unpaid flower picker on the planet. It has nothing to do with the obligations. It has to do with no matter what I was doing, it would be zero margin set up in that. So no, it doesn't have anything to do. I'm not like, oh, what was me? I have so many things. If I had zero things, I would be at 10. What is the root of that?

What is at the root of that? Because this is trauma behavior. Tons of people do it. It's very typical. What do you believe is at the root of your determination to be a miserable, unpaid flower picker? Well, I think the objective is not to be miserable. The right product of my personality, slash trauma, slash makeup, slash gifts is misery. So I do not have, and maybe I do, but I do not believe I have a conscious goal of being

miserable to prove my worthiness. I think that I'm a maximizer by nature. I think that I look out and see possibilities. I think I have a tremendously high self-efficacy, meaning my ability to apply myself to the world of possibilities and make them so. And I do think I have a worthiness complex of being like, oh, this thing, look at what I can do and that

this is unequivocally worthy, my ability to do this thing. And so I think it's like a perfect storm and I think you get a lot of praise for that in life. And so it's a self-fulfilling deal. I think it's largely like I can do all this shit. So why wouldn't I? Self-efficacy is a curse as well as a blessing. I would be so upset if I thought I could do everything. I really do not think I can do a lot of things. I mean, I know what I can do when I do them. And there's a lot of things I know I can't do, so I don't try, but really you can do anything. My therapist said to

me in the beginning of recovery, she used to make me write it down just because you can do something does not mean you should do that thing. Just because you can do something does not mean that you can, just because that job is offered to you, does not mean that money is for you. No to possibility. What do you want? Because as people who love you deeply,

I feel like this list, like suddenly asking you to stick your head in an ice, okay, feels like, although I will tell you what she's getting at that, okay? There is like a jolt of feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of these things can in live in that creature part of yourself that makes you remind you that you're human. Why life is like electro shock. Yes.

You know, tune in, tune in. You forgot you're human for a long time. And we have to do some drastic measures to remind you you're human. First of all, I take that entire thing as a love offering. I love it. And I'm not trying to shit on that parade at all. I think had I not had these recent experiences of that little electricity, I would need that to remind me. I think I just had the reminders recently, had the like, ooh, that feels like something good. And therefore, I'm reminded of the pie chart that's missing. So I get that and I think that's a great strategy

for if this conversation feels so foreign to you, it might be because you have not been reminded of your humanity for so long that this isn't even a place you can enter the conversation. And then if so, go put your fucking head in a nice fucking. But there's a part of this that's just like tired. It's so boring to talk about how busy you are. And it's so boring to be a fucking martyr.

What I want is to have the dignity and take myself seriously enough to know that if I can do anything I have the self-efficacy to actualize my humanity in my own human life. There isn't a like, oh I'm so sorry for Amanda, that's bullshit. I can do all the things. I am choosing, like the Girl Scout cookies, to not do this for a reason. And that's all on me. And so I'm thinking of part of the self-efficacy curse, crisis, blessing is like that's so much individual driven. And I think people who get in that path like me operate under the fiction that you can do everything yourself. And then you do everything yourself, including try to live your life yourself.

And in the Roske episode, where he was talking about that the saddest, hardest times of his life, was when he was operating under the delusion and the lie that we were disconnected. And the joy and the delight comes from recognition of the truth of the interconnectedness. And that sounds very esoteric, except that I do find when I have these like seedling saplings, moments of connection, whether they're silliness with my kids or whether it's an exchange with a human that was unexpected or sharing up something with a friend. That feels frivolous because it was not on my to-do list, but that is the like, that is the seedling of connection that actually does make me feel

more human, even if it's little. And that then opens up my own humanness, which then has me doing something silly later, which reminds me that I am not only a human, but I'm a very specific type of human, who is most myself when I am acting like myself. Yeah. And that that is as much an important part of me, and a part that needs to be expressed in this lifetime, as the thing that is as much

about me, which is that I can get a lot of shit done. Do you see yourself as the kind of person that would want to incorporate, like forget this list, want to incorporate more humanness in your life, knowing what you know in terms about the way your life operates? Is it something that you crave? Yeah. So what would you have to believe to do that? I would have to believe that I would die a really

impressive human. It scares me my capacity to do that. I much more have to consciously choose much more have to consciously choose to not do that. Yeah, like my default setting would be that that would be the story of my life. Yeah. So you would lay on your death bed thinking, I am so impressive. Well, that's a yes, but also that's a understatement. Like it's not just about being pricey for you.

It's like, I was so worthwhile to so many other people's lives. It's like the idea of worthiness is so interesting because you would have earned your worthiness so much with other people because you make other everyone else's lives run smoothly, but you would never have experienced enough of what even makes your own life worth while. What makes living worth it? It's these joy, it's this connection, it's the peace or whatever those words are that describe you getting to live as you and not hustling for worthiness. I mean, I think that one of the things, again,

like my son has been such a blessing to me over the past couple of years, because I think that is an example of like, I almost missed him. I was so focused on solving him and preparing the path for him with, you know, his ADHD and his challenges there, that I was exerting my efficacy on his life. And I almost didn't know him. And he is so fucking awesome. I was managing him. And I wasn't knowing him. And it is one of the greatest

delights of my life is to be like this person is just such a puzzle of fascinating stuff. I almost never knew it. And I could do the exact same thing with my own life. Like so busy managing it. That I didn't get to know it. Wolf, geez. So you, like me, are very good at understanding things in your head. You know, my therapist in early recovery would be like, we would get on the Zoom and I would say everything. You're like, I have recited the diagnostic behavioral chart and here's how I'm presenting and what I need to do. And here's what all my trauma and here's why I do the things I do. And everything was like neck up.

This whole process for me has been about for the first time, like actually living what I know or like letting it sink down into my body and my life. Do you think you're going to do that? And I really do. Wonder because I as your sister and work partner have whatever the word for worry, tried to fix, tried to boss you about relaxing. I'm sure I've done it a million wrong ways.

I have said, I'm going to quit this. I read this book. It's called like the Matrix by Lauren Graffin. It's about this badass nun who starts this convent. Then all of her friends joined her and she keeps having these great ideas. So then all of her friends work until they die on her great ideas. And so I was like, Oh, shit, is that what I'm doing to sister? Like I have had truly part of my deep therapy is not thinking that everything about Abby is my fault, not thinking that everything

about you is my fault because that's extremely narcissistic too. And like, touched, but it, but it's not uncomplicated to be working together. Sometimes I have wondered, should I just stop this whole thing? Should we quit? Because I'd rather not do any of this work than to run you into the ground. And then I wonder, am I solving a problem doing that? That isn't the problem because if you're gonna be a flower picker. Right. No, truly. And then I think then is there a way to Right. No, truly. And then I think then is there a way to not solve for the wrong problem?

No, it's my problem. It's my problem. And to the extent that are my boundaries that I would need to set effects our business, it would become your problem to then solve because then that would be your problem. But no part of this is your problem because it's not yet. I'm not saying it would never be. I'm just saying it's not yet. I think that it's a mix of what Abby said. Like I really do think it is that it's a mix of what Abby said. Like I really do think it is a mix of like if it is connections that I want and knowing that life doesn't set up the pockets of time for that and put them in your path,

you have to make them that there's a part of this that is kind of listed and structural setting that up to be like, okay, I wanna go on a walk with a friend twice a week. Who's that gonna be and what time is it gonna be? And then protecting that time and not letting it disappear. If it's, I'm going to, like, the people that I'm best being playful with armicates. And not from the extent of like, you gotta practice the piano,

not the managing of them, but they're just, are we gonna sit on the couch and we're gonna look at Taylor Swift, YouTube shorts, and then we're gonna like rank our top five songs, whatever it is for a half an hour every day. And then when I introduce that playfulness with them, like a little shadow of playfulness comes out where you can be playful with John. It's just like kind of a tired trope for me now. I'm getting bored of my own self being like,

I'm so tired. But that's okay. That's okay. That's what life is. We're all just only circling around the one problem that we have, that we've had since we were kid. Like, I can't deal with food. Like it's a basic thing that we put in our mouth and chew and I've been talking about it since I was 10. But that thing is about everything else. So it's not tired, it just takes what it takes. And it's probably gonna be the thing until you're dead, but life does offer us these moments

where we can say, I know all these things in my head and I'm actually gonna do something about it. But you only, again, the thing under the thing under the thing is trust. The thing under the thing that lets me do the thing that gives me ease and playfulness is the trust that if I do that, and not the 47 things that are already on my list. That life and our business will not fall apart.

The trust that like, if I do my best, that enough is enough. And that's the scariest thing of all, is to not continue to try to have a hyperhold on like, I will know that I've done everything to protect my family and my business and my life and my people if I just keep doing and never stop doing. And if I have the audacity to stop doing for a second and something breaks bad, would that be because I stopped doing for a second? And so I think it's trust. I think it's trust in that, that like, you know what? I have worked my ass off today.

I have tried to prioritize the way I can. I have done what I can do. And tomorrow I will do what I can do again. And not that it won't fall apart. Because that's the illusion of ever having had control. It's like, Liz always says to me, when I say I'm letting go of control, she says you're not letting go of control.

You've never had control. You're letting go of your. You've never had control. You're letting go of your illusion that you've ever had control. Your trust cannot be in. It won't fall apart. Like, oh, my kids won't fall apart. My family won't, my marriage won't fall apart. My business won't fall apart.

No wonder you don't stop. If that's what you think, you have to have trust in. Like, it likely will fall apart. Everything's going to fall apart over and over again. So it's like when it falls apart, I guess we'll just do the next right thing together. Like I guess we'll figure it out tomorrow. But done enough. I trust that I deserve to rest. And when you don't know if you deserve to rest, and there is no quantifiable thing that is ever enough, then you by definition have never done enough to deserve to rest. Yeah. Do you ever want to just stop all this? No.

You don't want like an experiment of enough. I'll tell you what, I'd take two thirds of this. But would you? Like of the whole bag. I would, because I think I do. I don't know if that's capacity. Like I don't know if it's ironing something else. I don't know if that's capacity. I don't know if it's hiring something else. I don't know if it's like me just figuring out

how to draw back a third. I don't know if it's like, okay, if you like two thirds of this, would you want help from the team to figure out how to get two-thirds of this. Cause one of the things I see with the people we would call over functioners is that sometimes, sometimes I think it's not the two-thirds of the list

that will ever happen. It's like taking requirements for A plus work to two-thirds of that. Like, we're gonna be okay with B pluses everywhere. Because if you're the filter through which everything goes, your family, your community, your team, your lacrosse team, your work team, and you always have to make it an A plus, then there's never gonna to be any room for

enough. Because it's always going to have to go through you. For someone who loves someone like you, what I'm trying to say is it is the tendency of us to want to fix things for you when you say I want two thirdsthirds of this. Or, you know, when you've come to me and said, this is going to make me sick if I keep doing this. It is the tendency of the person who loves you to want to, okay, let's sit down, let's figure out how to take some of this away from you. But that feels threatening to you. It feels like you don't want things taken away from you. And so then for the person on this side,

it feels like we've fucked it up. Is that tracking? Or does it feel like, well, that's just not gonna even happen. Like, is there a part of you that's like, okay, this is a really nice fun game that you wanna do. But for the over-functioner, if you take the thing and you're like, okay, we're gonna take that from you

and we're gonna put it over here, then that person's still going to go back and grab this thing because they can do it a little bit better. There are a handful of people that I trust with every piece of this and they're already on our team. And every single other person, we have tried to incorporate the offload should do. It has come back to me, except for the people in our team. So what I'm just saying is theoretically awesome. And we might be getting a little tangential here. I'm really trying to figure out if this is structural, if this is like a workload thing, or if this is below that, this is something that is not workload, but is internal response to the world. When I say two thirds, when you

said you want to stop this and I'm like unequivocally now, I love this. I love the whole thing, the whole business. Like in a perfect world, is it like a few less hours a day? Yeah, that would be perfect for every member of our team. All of it is awesome. And it's all just a little too much awesome. I just want to ask you, like, are you feeling okay about all that we're talking about? Are you feeling like you're feeling starting to get hurt a little? Well, I'm just feeling like a, I don't know if this is a practical exercise, but I feel like it's like kind of, like a theoretical enterprise.

And then B, I feel like what I need to do is what I already identified I need to do, which is do my best and work really hard and then trust that it's enough. And build in slots of time. I don't think that it's ever realistic that I'm just going to lower my standards and be like it's a B. And I also don't think it's a failure of my management of the thing that it's the amount of work it is. Our whole team works their asses off.

And it's just like we are not victims of this. We're here because we are devoted to this and we're really good at it. And we are responsible for our own selves and our own lives. And making that work for us. I just do feel like if we have a beautiful thing and what's way more important to me than a successful podcast show is that we are all having the human experiences that we're supposed to be having. Way more important. So, let's just stop there, because this has just been a lot. Would it be easier if I put my head in a bucket?

For fuck's sake, that's why people do this, instead of getting to the stuff below the stuff. It's actually quite amazing. I love you so much. And I feel very grateful for your vulnerability and honesty. I don't think we really expected to go that deep. So I'm really grateful that you did. And I think we should plan a month from now to have another chat. And if it's exactly like this, that's fine. Yeah, but I also think like if you want to make your own list

because like this is the shit that works for me. You know, the stuff that I've implemented in my day. And also, sister, I just want you to know I understand what it's like to be a high achiever. And I know how much self-esteem being good at shit brought me. I really know that that's also so alluring and enticing. And it's it's hard to turn your back on that or at least like even like turn a quarter aways away from that. And so like I don't want you to ever feel like in this conversation or the way that I think or the way that glenets, I don't think that there's anything fucking wrong with you, but what I would

love to see more of is that frivolous, fun situation you're talking about. I would love more of that. Just because when you talk about it, you light up. When you talk about that part of who you are, who you've been suppressing a little, that gets me really excited. I don't know. I get really excited. I appreciate that because to me, it's less of a zero sum.

It's less of a like, well, you have got to stop focusing so much on being good at that shit you're doing because then there's not enough in this bucket over here. And it's more like you've got to focus that energy of being so good at shit and start being so good at being alive. Yes. So, like, it's not that you need to, like, stamp out that part of you. No, you need to kindle the shit out of that part of you and start using it to live. That's right.

To. And that, for me, feels the most empowering version of it, which is like, I know I can do that. Yeah. So it's just a question of just doing it. Can you do me a favor when you feel the bubbly or the inside that you call it playful a lot? When you feel that, will you write, just jot it down like when you felt it? Yeah.

So maybe that's a good start instead of a list, just like a notice it. Yeah. And essay yet. And essay yet. Of times when you've noticed the joy or the whatever it is. And then maybe that will help us know what. We can call it proof of life.

Proof of life. My God, Tish always says that. Show me your proof of life. And also, I don't want to do it in one month. I want to do it in three months. Oh, look at you. Three months. We'll chat in three months.

I love it. No, I think that's that is my thing. Yes. I do it in a month and I'll be like, well, you know what, I've got to get three things on the schedule for this weekend, the three things on the schedule for this week. I'm not interested in that. Is there anything that we can do to support help in that way? We can hands off for three months or I can send, you know, a text every once in a while,

like proof of life, like just tell us some ideas. Please send proof of life. What are like proof of life, like just tell us some ideas. Please send proof of life. What are some proof of life that you have? I will think about that, Abby. Just let us know. I just love you. I want you to tell us what will work best for you in your mind.

Yeah, and it's no small thing. So like three months, if we figure this out, it will be a cultural breakthrough. This is like an epidemic. Yeah. What I'm saying is it's the world. In 44 years in the making. And it's like, let's move back here in four weeks. No, I mean, I think you're exactly right.

When we did, I don't even know what episode it was, but I was talking about some things like, I used to be funny and silly or something on one episode, probably a year ago. And I was reading every single comment under the Instagram post that was driving to that episode. And the number of people that I saw saying things like, I am a really funny person and I always have been

and I just talked to my family about it and they're like, mom isn't funny. I've never heard mom be funny. Or I am silly. And I just realized I haven't been silly in 10 years. We think we are these things. But there's no evidence of that in our lives. You got to be. And it's so sad. It's like the stupidest as the stupid does. It's like smart is a smart does. Silly is a silly does. Like we think we is, but we don't does. But we not.

We think we don't dance. We don't dance. We gotta start doesn't. Is what it is. Oh my God. Yeah. I read something Ellie Wong said recently I don't just want equal pay. I want equal pleasure. We love you, Pad's Guide for Fuxxic. I don't know. We'll see you next time. Do you hear that? You hear that ambulance going by my house? It's like this is the emergency round level. They heard it and they're coming for me. See, you're silly.

We love you. I love you. See you guys next time. Bye! Fold! If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. I walked through a fire, I came out, the other side. I came out the other side I chased desire, I made sure I got once money

And I continued to believe That I'm the one for me and because I mine I want the line But we're so mad, a final destination That we stopped asking directions And some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do our thing I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart

And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, a final destination With that we stopped asking directions So places they've never been To be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard This world finished her rose and heart breaks on land. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stopped asking directions. Some places may have never been And to be loved we need to be long

We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things me.