We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 242. We’re All Liars: What’s Your Lying Style?

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Liar, liar – all of our pants are on fire. In this juicy conversation about lying: Why the question isn’t “DO you lie?” – but “HOW and WHY do you lie?” What constitutes a lie to you: defining what makes something a lie; Figuring out our own particular lie languages – and why Abby’s a Bullshitter; and Deciding if there is anyone you can be completely honest with – and how to create the algorithm of honesty. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. I'm excited for this episode. I feel curious about this episode. We are going to talk today about lying and truth. Okay? We started thinking about this when we heard this voice mail from Janelle. Hi, Glenan, Abby, and Amanda. I just love you guys so much.

This is Janelle, and I just had a question about when you're setting a boundary, is it okay to tell a little white lie? Like, instead of just saying, I don't want to go, or it doesn't work for me, I come up with these elaborate excuses why that maybe aren't so true, just to like stare at the other person's feelings, but then I feel worse because I know that I'm like. So instead of just saying like, hey, I'm exhausted,

I can't come, I might say, hey, we can't come, my kid has this friend in town, and we're not gonna meet yet because the timing wouldn't work out, and I make this, hey, we can't come. My kid has this friend in town and we're not going to meet you because the timing wouldn't work out, and I make this elaborate story where I think about making up this elaborate story for days, and then I even feel worse. But it's really hard to set boundaries, and that's kind of one of the ways that I do it to make myself feel better. Anyway, it clearly doesn't work. So I would love to know your thoughts on setting boundaries, by telling the cold hard truth or

telling a little story to make everyone feel a little bit better. Thank you. This is going to be juicy. I mean, I did this last week. Yeah, everyone does this every day. Okay. Okay. Genelle, everyone. I want everyone to know that I started researching this topic online, knowing that this was coming up, thinking that as a truth teller, this was going to be an episode about extolling the virtues of truth telling and how we should all tell the truth,

and I would tell everyone why telling the truth is better. I have finished my research understanding that I am a complete liar. We are all lying all the time. And I no longer think is the question, do you tell the truth or do you lie? I think the question is, what is your lying style? Yeah. How do you lie? Why do you lie? And do you whom do you lie? Why do you lie? What is your lying style? Yeah, how?

Do you lie? Why do you lie? Do whom do you lie? Why do you lie? Yes? This is the question we are going to talk to you today Pad Squad about What we now believe are our particular lying styles lie languages and by the way we just made this shit up There's nobody saying that there's lie language We're saying it. They probably are. They're probably are.

We haven't come across them. Okay. I'm just saying Google it also. Don't like say that there are lylings, which is like we just, we're making it up. But hopefully you'll be able to figure out what your lylings, which is and not to beat yourself up about it, by the way, I think that actually, it can help you feel more compassionate about yourself and everybody else to figure out why we lie and how we lie.

It tells us a lot about ourselves and each other. So is anybody have a response for sweet Janelle about her little white lie, which, by the way, we should stop calling little white lies because I feel like that's just racist. It is everything we call white is like, oh, it's no problem. It's pure. It's whatever. There should be another word for these. It reminds me of the M.O.K. speech where he was talking about how there are 135 synonyms for whiteness that are all positive, like you're innocent, and 120 centenims for blackness, and half of them are offensive.

It's the whole idea that we teach in so many ways that to feel good about yourself or feel bad about yourself without teaching it. But I would say that one of the things that the white lie does have in common with whiteness is that there is this idea of just being fake and polite and etiquette, which does tie to whiteness a little bit. It's like etiquette thing about not being real and just like, so are these lies that

genels talking about often about pleasing or not rocking the boat or being part of etiquette? Yes, and I, one thing I want to say about Janelle is that it's really amazing because she's saying like, in order to set a boundary, I tell the lies. And it's like, that's not setting a boundary. That's something else. That is getting what you need out of the situation, which is not to go to the thing. But setting a boundary is actually stating your needs. I don't think you get to tell the untruth and set a boundary at the same time. If you're setting a boundary,

you're saying what you need, which is I'm not gonna be there tonight, it doesn't work for me. This is where I can't be. So I don't think we get to have it both ways. I think we can get what we need. And if you're going to have some element of deception involved in that, great.

But I don't think you can call that a boundary. Because don't you think by definition boundaries are like there is an exchange of actual authentic. Yes. There. And I think the purpose of setting a boundary is teaching someone else what you will and won't do or what you do and do not need. So when you hold up something that's real, it's like, here's a thing about me

that will make our next interaction more true to me. But when you're telling a story, you're just holding up a picture of a mirage. You're not teaching anyone anything about yourself. I also think that the explaining of the why you're setting your boundary, I think that she could just say, hey, we can't come, oh, I'm just so sorry. We can't come and somebody might say,

why it's just like we just can't we don't we can't do it And that doesn't work for us tonight. Yeah, it doesn't work for us I just think that the explaining thing is what this boundary is Mistaking right because to set a boundary is like I can't or I can't Period or I will right won't right. I don't want to right But to me the whole thing boils down to you said, when you were saying the big question is, why we lie or I lie language, to me, the big question is to whom do we owe the truth? Because it might be the same people to whom we owe the truth or people with whom we want to have a truthful relationship

are the same people with whom we might wish to set boundaries. Yes. Because that's all about an investment, which is totally distinct from. It's about investment and ongoing relationship or a modified relationship. And that all goes in the part of the pie chart of your relationships that is the deeper level of authentic. That's good. And then there's this whole pie chart of your relationships that are about getting through the freaking day

and about being part of ecosystems. Like lies are the social lubricant to get us through a lot of various people and various parts of our lives. And so we use that to like grease the wheels and get us through. But then there's this whole other set of people who we actually want to have deeper relationships with. And so entering the tiny lies and the big lies in those are actually detrimental to the relationship. Whereas this other side, they're helpful to the relationship because we're not trying to have a real relationship.

We're trying to just go to soccer practice. So it's like a flow chart. It's like a flow chart. Okay, somebody asks you a question. And then it's like, do you care about this person? Do you see building a relationship with this person? If the answer is no, you go to the left and it's a box that says, just lie your way out of it. Nobody really wants to know how you are. Nobody really wants to know why you can't. If it's like for the soccer team and your whatever, just say the shit that you need to say,

but there's another side of the flow chart. And it's like, do you care about this person? Do you want this person to know you better so that you can develop a relationship with them? To me, it's not about, oh, it's about want. Do you want this person? Then you consider revealing the truth because you're creating an algorithm with them.

If you just say, oh, I, the reason I can't come or I don't want to come is because I have this thing, then they are forgiven for thinking, oh, if she doesn't have this parent in town or child in town, the next time she will want to go out with me at 8 p.m. until 11 p.m. or whatever. But if you're creating an algorithm that person and you say, actually, I don't want to go because I just don't like things at night. Or I'm just and I'm tired or I just have like a lot going on or I'm the kind of person who needs six days and vans. Whatever it is that's true. Then that person is learning how to be in relationship with you instead of trying to create a relationship on a mirage. I think that's right. And I also think that it is this whole cognitive dissonance we have around lying. First of all, we are like lying's bad and we teach our kid that lying is bad,

you should not lie. And then we literally teach our kids to lie. We're were like say that dinner was delicious. And we tell them they're rude if they don't do that. Everyone lies. There was these studies like if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't lie, then that would make you exceptional. You are an exceptionally rare human. You're probably terrible to be around. Well, yeah, I mean, you live in a lot of integrity, but you live very much alone. 25% of people lie more than twice a day. 90% of those lies are what the world calls little white lies. We will call them social. Social.

Social minor deceptions. Minor discussion. The irony is that we lie more to people close to us than to strangers. So 9% of people lightest strangers, 51% of people light of friends. And what's wild to me is that, okay, listen to these, we deceive 30% of the people what we are in one to one interactions with. Men and women lie in one fifth of their social exchanges that last 10 minutes or more.

We cannot be in 10 minute conversations without lying to people. Is there a difference between men and women? Yes. Yes. Men are more likely to lie about themselves. They lie more to impress. So the typical conversation between two guys

contains eight times as many self-oriented lies as it does lies about others, whereas women are more likely to tell altruistic lies, which are lies to avoid hurting other people's feelings. Okay, this is my favorite line that I found out in the research. More men than women lie. Men are particularly good at deception, or at least they say they are.

They're lying about, they're lying about, they're lying. It's like an exception. Let's talk for a second about what we mean by lies, because I think this is really important. Lies are they contain awareness and intention. So, for example, if I'm saying that my last marriage lasted six years, I am not lying, because I do not understand yours. Time is a very difficult conversation for me, right? No, I'm serious. Like this is, you get a lot of numbers wrong. I get, yeah, it's and it's not. It's astounding.

When someone calls me for an article and they're like, oh, we just have to fact check you. I'm like, well, I got to that possible. I, yeah, that's actually not possible. Like you have to call sister, I cannot fact check myself. I can feelings check all day. Now the reason I say that is because intent and awareness. So a lie is a deliberate choice to mislead. In other words, if you're saying something and you don't know that you're lying, you're misremembering something or you're just being wrong, that is not what we're talking about. We're talking about when you are saying something. And at the same time, you're having this like double consciousness of, oh, that's not, I know,

that's not true. Here I go. I keep going. I am intending to do this. And I am aware that I'm doing this. For example, if someone on the street says, how are you? And you've had the worst day of your life and you're whatever. And you say, I'm fine, that is a lie. It's also probably necessary because it's a stranger. So we're not attaching good or bad to the lie. I'm just saying in order to be a lie, intent and awareness. I disagree with this whole idea. Oh, okay.

I believe that a lie is something when you are deceiving someone who wants to know the truth. Oh, so if they really don't even know the truth, but how do people who you walk by in the farmers market and say, how are you? Don't want the truth. Okay, but Cissy, that's not, that doesn't matter. You cannot go around assessing other people's intentions. You can only decide what's coming out of your mouth

is true or not. Well, I think we assess people's intentions all the time. That's why we light a people in the farmer's market. That's why we don't lie to our partner when they say how are you. Okay, then we need a different word for it. That's like saying, either I did punch you or I didn't punch you, but if you deserved it, if you were being an asshole, that's not a punch.

It's still what's coming out of us is either true or not, regardless of what we think the other person's intention is. Okay, this is why the cognitive dissonance, because we say we shouldn't lie. And then we develop an entire society that is built on the assumption that everyone will be lying. Yes, oh God, totally. So we shouldn't be calling that lying, because that isn't lying.

When you read a room and you know what's expected of you, and you know that what someone is asking is not for the truth. And you deliver in accordance with that expectation. That is not a lie. That is something different. That is part of a social contract, which is why we develop different social contracts with different relationships throughout our lives. Okay, so someone says to me, How is your morning? And I had a colonoscopy this morning. And I said it was fine. It was great.

But it really wasn't great. That's not not a lie. That's not a lie. It's just a compulsory lie. It's just required lie. It's a social lubricant lie. But it doesn't mean that it's not a lie. If I say something out of my mouth that isn't true, it might be a necessary lie, but it's still a lie.

Yeah, I think we're deciding what a lie is. I think that this is like the whole shabang here. Like so many people don't know what a they're doing is a lie. And then everybody's definition of what a lie is is gonna be different. And I think that that's where we get a little bit stuck based on the families we were raised in. I grew up in a family that were just fucking liars.

Bullshitters, like they were just like spewing bullshit all the day as long. And here I was interpreting that as some of it is fact, and then I was learning this behavior of like, oh, storytelling is what we do down here during this life. So determining like what a lie is is going to be complicated for every person because for me, I'm like in therapy right now about the bullshit inside of me. And it's a triggering to try to figure out, wait, what does that, what is the definition of a lie to me? Which is why I feel like it is important to not call what we do 100 times a day of lie because the delusion of that, if something means everything, it means nothing. So if you're saying, when someone asks me how I am and what I say back to them is a lie,

and that is somehow the equivalent of a very serious breach of trust with my partner, a very serious breach of trust with my partner. That serves no one, because we all agree that this side of the spectrum is totally fine and we do it 1400 times a day, where in our mental reaction, do we get to the other side of the spectrum? That's why I just think none of those things on the other side should be called lies.

You should save a lie for what it is. And the rest is just operating in a society. Yep, not all lies are created equal. There needs to be like a system in place. We need to have better language. We need to have like numbers. Like, oh, this is a number one lie with like the socially acceptable lie.

And then there's a number 10 lie that we don't go to because they're really bad lies. There needs to be a problem. Because where it gets really complicated is at number five. Yeah. Right? Because the truth is that the studies have shown that when you have like, what they call a lie by a mission or when you're technically telling the truth, but you're still have the impact of deceiving, the person who is doing it, you think that it is fine because of that whole one through four, right? Where we all agree that that's fine. But the impact on the person who is receiving that technical truth that operates in deceit is monumental. It's like they feel it the same as a

direct untruth. That's right. So this is where the rubber meets the road, which is why I'm so adamant that we don't call one through four lies. That is just how we operate in a society where we're interacting with a bunch of people who, by the way, are not worthy of our trust. To be truthful with someone is to entrust someone else with something that is real and important to you. And a ton of people out there are not worthy of that trust. Okay. Your relationship has not developed to the level of that trust. So this would get at like the idea that we should all be vulnerable all the time. Truth is vulnerability.

And it is not true that we should be vulnerable with every single person all along the day, all the time, vulnerability. Brune Brown teaches us is something that we give to people who have earned it. And so what you're saying is the intent of a lie in quotes marks to protect yourself, which is one of the reasons people lie is to protect themselves or protect another, is actually sometimes just wisdom because it's not making yourself vulnerable to people who have not earned it or you don't feel like investing in. I think that's exactly right.

I think that you deepen a relationship, say there's someone in your life and maybe they're even a close person, maybe they're even a family member. And one of the reasons why you feel ill at ease around them is you feel like you don't have the trust in them that they have the wisdom to be responsible with real information. But you're supposed to trust them to be responsible with the real information that you don't trust them?

Yes, exactly. Or with someone else. Like if you're not understanding this right now, Pod Squad, like this feels weird to you, think about like if somebody says, asks you a question about a vulnerable friend or child, it's in your life. And you don't trust that person with information. And that person says, how's your kid or how's whatever? You're not going to tell them everything about that kid's life because you don't trust them with that information. Not even necessarily because they're a bad person,

just because that's sacred to you. So that sort of protection of self or others, that sort of, quote, lie is often wisdom. I mean, I was thinking about this. I was like, a wild liar as a kid, wild. My kids and I laugh all the time. I once convinced my entire gymnastics class that Madonna was my aunt. Okay, I carried that lie on for so long. I had pictures like I'd cut out for magazines of Madonna in my book bag. I think it's still haunts you a little bit. I was committed to Madonna as my aunt.

I think it's still haunts you a little bit. I was committed to Madonna as my aunt. I told my friend, Kristen, that I had a bunk bed that had a elevator, that I used an elevator to get from my bottom to my top bunk bed, and that I had a tub of gummy worms, that was the size of a refrigerator in my bedroom. I could not invite Kristen to my house for a year because of these big lies.

I had the crush on this boy named Kyle, and I, his birthday was March 17th. So I told my entire class and Kyle that my birthday was also March 17th and had to sneak into my teacher's classroom during lunch when no one else was in there. So I could cross out my birthday behind her desk. She had a birthday chart behind her. Lies after lies after lies. Okay, so I've been thinking about why used to do that. I was so desperate to be special.

I just wanted to be special. I wanted to be important. I wanted to be chosen. I didn't feel like I had like whatever natural currency of belonging that the other kids had. So I felt like I had to manufacture it. I had to like make up cool currency. I was not wrong. Okay. I didn't have to do that. Then. So that was like one sort of light that I've identified in myself, right? When I was little. But as you know, sister, I also was a big liar as a teenager.

You're like, I didn't contract. I also like to shit time as a teenager. But on the other hand, I was also a big liar later. Okay, so, but I remember, and this was like a different kind of lying. It was halting to my parents about my life, like always lying to them about where I was or what I was doing or my boyfriend

or hiding my period, like hiding, like just always hiding stuff. And I remember getting in a lot of trouble for that. I remember my parents saying, why do you always lie? And I, in this case, have a lot of sympathy for myself because I did not believe that there was room for my truth in my home, in a lot of ways. And anything regarding, you know, being imperfect or wildly human or like a sexual or appetite or you know, I when I survive all.

Yeah, like and so I think that is what two sisters are saying. And sometimes we look at a person, we say, why do they always lie instead of looking at their environment and thinking, why do they have to lie so much? And I also think when we talk about lying, it's super important to think about, there's lots of groups that don't get to tell the truth. Like, well, if there's a man

and a woman and the man is angry and the woman is angry, well, why might then woman conceal her anger? Because she there's not room for her truth. Because the world will react to her poorly. So she learns to hide. She learns to conceal. She learns to protect herself. If there's a white woman and a black woman and the black woman is Messy and vulnerable and a little bit pissed and the white woman is Messy vulnerable and a little bit pissed. Well, why might the white woman get to share all of that and be loved and Endeared for it and why might the black woman never get to share any of that? There's an element of Truth being a privilege like being honest being a privilege for some people.

So when we explore, you know, lying languages and why people lie, I think privilege and freedom to be human without negative backlash is one reason. It's a big one. I don't even think it's relationship dependent. Like there are a bunch of relationships where I feel like the stated or un-stated expectation is that we will continue to live in deception. Absolutely. And that is the lubricant for that relationship to make it work.

And so that's why to me, it is so, it's like setting the terms of engagement. It is a privilege in society to be able to tell the truth and is also a privilege in society to be able to tell the truth and is also a privilege that you earn through expectation among people. I don't think anyone is owed the truth from me unless we have formed a bond of trust where that is the mutual expectation. Yeah. I don't think anyone is owed your truth. If you are grounded and have done work enough to know your own truth, hallelujah.

And then you're gonna share it with other people great, but people need to know about you that you want the truth from someone. And it is, it's a big ask. Yes. Asking someone to always be truthful to you is a potentially dangerous thing. It is like we are entering the arena with each other. That means when you're pissed at me,

I want you to tell me that there's only a handful of people that I want to know when they're pissed at me. That's right. So true. And that I want the truth when they're visiting. That's right. Yeah, so true. And that I want the truth from. So I just think it's like we should get honest about truth and lying. Yeah. Even truth with self. I mean, you think about like we have some people who are working out some major family

stuff and the younger kids in the family are not seeing the toxic nature of the parents and it's frustrating for the older person but it's like you know we can see it. You think about no no they can't yet. The younger kids are dependent. It's developed in the people appropriate. It is they're protecting themselves, the lie of being rose colored glasses is protecting them until they can handle it because they can be on their own. I don't know. I'm with you about this research just making me think very differently about lie being bad, truth being good.

What does that mean? It's like a religion. If you're always trying to be quote unquote good, so that you don't violate the principle that you should never lie, then you might not be taking care of yourself. Mm-hmm. Because then you are disclosing the truth to people who can't handle it,

might not deserve it, and then you're creating a relationship and deepening a relationship with people that the very reason you might want to lie to them to begin with is because a deepened relationship is not appropriate in that context. Perfect. Okay, so we are saying that there is a bucket of lying. I know we don't like that word, which is. Which joy is not calling lying. Okay. So we are saying that there is a bucket of lying. I know we don't like that word. That is not calling lying. Right. Which is an appropriate protection. Protection of self-protection of others protection. There's another side where you could say it's protecting like this is gray also because a person who's hiding an affair could say, well, I was just protecting myself. I was protecting myself. Exactly.

So what if she found out I was having an affair? Yeah. Exactly. I would call it adaptive and maladaptive. OK. OK. Adaptive and maladaptive. OK.

What are those? So like adaptive is using it for good, using it in a, but maladaptive is using as protecting thing and using it for good, using it in a, but maladaptive is using as protecting thing and using it for not so various purposes. Okay. So what, let's move on though from that very helpful category to what Abby and I have been discussing on our walks this week about our particular lying styles that don't have

to do with just this protection. I don't think, although maybe we will discover that they do. But we have made up words for these people. We have decided that Abby is a bullshitter. Right. And that I am a puppeteer. And we have some other ideas that might be some people are hiders, some people are promoters, we can get to that. Abby, love. Can you tell me what your lying style is as a bullshitter? Okay, well, I just have to level set this for myself. About 10 years ago, maybe even 15 now.

I read the four agreements book. Oh, yes, you love that book. And I challenged myself to be impeccable with my word for one year. And I wanted to say that it was the least amount of talking I ever did. You're like, I'm gonna be so impeccable with my word that I'm gonna say three words this year.

It was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. And I remember hitting the earmark and being like, fuck this shit. It's too hard. So this has been something that I feel like I've been dealing with for quite a long time. And like I said earlier, I come from a family where it's just like a lot of people around and there's just like

mostly met masculine energy for brothers one of which who lies a lot and you don't know if it's true, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not and then I went into the sports world where there's just like lots of bullshitting, you know, people talking shit. So I got into this kind of way of being that has hindered the kind of integrity and the character that I think of myself as. I don't know a lot of things, but I pretend to know a lot of things.

And I have the kind of male confidence in that pretending, and it is backfired on me a lot. Sister, I don't know if you remember this, but the first time I spoke to you ever, you said to me, just don't ever lie to Glenin. But I have tried really hard to not lie in our marriage ever. I don't lie. Like that's not my thing. But there's this bullshitting component to the way that I am, the my being that I can talk shit. I'll spew a fact that like maybe I read on Twitter as Bible. And then somebody will call me out and I'll spew a fact that like maybe I read on Twitter as Bible. And then somebody will call me out and I'll be like, Google it. You know, like, please don't Google it.

Please don't Google it and catch me out in this lie. But there is something deeper like the things that we've been talking about is like, well, why is it important to me to feel or present myself as somebody that knows things. I think that I have a lot of insecurity around my intellect, not having graduated from college, being the sporty kid, not the education academic kid, and then I come into this family of the smartest fucking people I've ever met in my life. And so I do think that I have a lot of insecurity around how much you guys know. And so I wanna be additive in some ways.

And so I think that I make some stuff up or I pretend to know things that may or may not be true, truly. Like may or may not be true. Because I wanna feel important. And I like belonging. And I want to be a part of this family. And that's like a real truthy truth. I'm like literally in therapy about it. Yeah. Cause like trying

to find my own self worth and what I bring to the table. And then adding the whole parenting conversation to this lying conversation. Like, isn't parenting a whole fucking trove of lies? Yes. It's just like, you're just trying to get through the day and get your kids to be like, it'll be okay. Yeah. Why?

Yeah, like I don't know, but you gotta pretend. It gets better. You gotta pretend. You can do it. So long and the short of it, my core fear is that I'm not smart enough and that I want to belong into this really intellectual family. And I do know that like I am bringing something

to the table in some ways. If you could see Abby sometimes when she's working on this, like we'll be at the kitchen table and one of the kids will say something. I don't know. Like how many moons does Jupiter have or something? I don't know. I'm making it up and Abby will look at me and she'll go, I don't know. Oh, it's so hard for me. And it's like, it's like, it's like your recovery work. You're like, you're twitching. You're having like withdrawal. Yes. I want to say 12. I want to say 12. That's an interesting 12. Oh, that's an interesting question. I don't know. Don't really been something.

No. Oh, God, it hurts me. But then she'll look up and she's so proud of herself for saying, I don't know. And I look at her and go, oh my God, oh, baby. Well, because I'm trying to establish a knowing that keeps people feeling like safe and comfortable and ironically, what is happening in your body

when I am going into my bullshit or way? It makes me feel so unsafe. Yeah. I notice it right away and it always makes me feel so unsafe. I don't know how to describe it other than a feeling of like, I'm just wondering, okay, practically, how does that work? Would someone just be like, Hey, what happened in the war of 1812?

And Abiel just start racing and just making stuff up as she goes. Yes. Yes. Well, not necessarily. It'll have a kernel of truth. This is not ever about something like that I know, okay, here's something. We wouldn't pretend to know there was a warning. No, no, no, no.

That's a bunch too far. I can instantly survey the crowd and know in some ways what they don't know. And I know this is gonna sound so, but like read a room. I would think I could say that they can either confirm nor deny. Well, and also, like, I would never go down the history route

because our kids are taking all of those classes right now. Right. And they've read all the books. So like, anything that's outside of their purview, I'm like, oh, this is maybe where I can assert some untruth. Grunt, so that's so great. You have a skill set.ruth. So that's so great. You have a skill set. I know.

And it's so deep down. Like it's so underneath, like my consciousness, it's like so deep into my subconscious that I don't know that it's happening. But something happens in my belly that when I say something and nobody else knows it, especially in my family, my brain lights up, I'm like, I feel really, even though I know that I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about. So it doesn't need to be real. No! I'm like, you're like, they are looking at me as if I am an authority on this subject.

Yes, they believe me. And I don't know, like, I'm sure that there's got to be some sort of chemical thing happening in my body. I actually feel something I'm sure that there's got to be some sort of chemical thing happening in my body. I actually feel something happening. And then there's this other side of it where I'm terrified to be found out. Sure. But maybe I'm sure a lot of people can really, like in being in a big family, I've been to your home.

The person, everyone turns towards the person who's talking the loudest. It doesn't matter whether they're telling the truth, whether they're saying, yeah, it's, it's just to get the expectation of truth is not existed. No, like the social contract here is that we're all just thrown stuff around, but nobody is actually expecting truth here. That's right. But I have had so much fun walking into the bullshitting family because I have learned how to do it. Abbees has a person in her family who does just present stories and I can tell in a second that this person doesn't know what they're talking about. So the thing that you do with the bullshitting, oh god.

Okay. So at one point this person was talking in a way that I felt slightly uncomfortable with, okay? And they were talking about cameras, like cameras, and how body cams. Body cams, and about why a police officer shouldn't have to wear them because they don't even work or something. They just don't work, and spouting off stats at the table or something. And I just interrupted, and I said, as a matter of fact, in 49 states, 87% of those body

cams work, 48% of the time or more, especially on the weekends. She just made it up. And I just stared at him. She just, knowing he was full of shit and knowing there was nothing that he could say back, knowing the thing I said didn't even make sense. The conversation in the end, my side one. So what you can do with bullshinners, who you can tell don't know,

is just make a bunch of shit back and say it louder. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for being so vulnerable with that. I know that we've been talking about all these different kinds of lying. And I do remember feeling when I was doing that year of not lying. I do remember feeling really proud of myself for being really in truth. And yes, it meant I didn't talk as much, which I think is probably fine. But I also think that there's something to be said

about the way that lying can actually make you feel about yourself in terms of, for me, at least, being a bullshitter, like, I don't want that to be who I am. I want you and my people to feel safe in knowing that what I'm saying is true. And that I more than anything, I need to be comfortable with not knowing something that establishes my self-worth. You know, like, yeah, because it's about self-worth. That is the work that I'm doing right now is trying to disconnect

any kind of knowledge that I have to me having any sort of self-worth. I should have self-worth regardless of what I know. I love that. You know, just knowing that at a table your worth is just you existing not having to like make something up to be worthy. Yeah, and just being able to say I don't know. I love it. Yeah, and just being able to say, I don't know. I love it. Abby, you are so worthy and you bring so much every minute. And we love you so much. And the least interesting thing about you is what you know, but you know a lot of shit.

None of us will ever even have access to. And it's also all of us are insecure. All of us lie based on our insecurity and unworthiness. Years is just in that particular area. Yeah. All of us do. I think one of the things that has been so interesting and beautiful is the way that like you have been able to communicate this with me. Nobody in my life has ever been able to, and it's because I trust you, and I trust that what you say is your truth. And it's a complication in our marriage because it's not something that I'm like healed from and perfect around. And so sometimes I'm still doing it. I do think that in a marriage, this kind of conversation is really important.

Like what kind of a liar are you? And when do you do it? And so she can hold me a little bit accountable privately, not necessarily in front of everybody. But that's important. Yeah. But I do just get scared that our kids are gonna have all the wrong facts about things.

Yeah, but so do we. Our dad did that all the time. Remember he told us that on the, he would just say things so definitively, you're like, that's gotta be true. You know, the what are they called? Where the the electrical cords that are on the poles? What are those that phone the balls? Phone wires. Yeah, phone, phone lines. Where the cords go and you know, they have those those circular balls on them. He told us that the elves live near and cleaned the yes, clean the wires. We believe that until we were like 12. Yeah, but those weren't the worst lies. The worst lies were stuff that could

be true until we were 540, like that spam was called spam because they served it in the Spanish American war. So many. I mean, I also think that there's something he said, this is a in defense of myself here. It is good for kids to be critically thinking on whether things are true or not. Listen to your parents with discernment. Like that sticker they used to put on my books in the Christian store, read with discernment.

I mean, think about all the shit that we were indoctrinated with. Yeah. So it is important that our kids are capable and able to discern for themselves what their truth will be, right? Like, so I'm helping them. They're in training.

Yeah, you're training them to know that a discernment for shit. They're in truth training. Okay, so that's the bullshitter. If you relate to that, Pod Squad, that means you might be in a situation where you puff yourself up or act like you know more than you know, it might be tied to worthiness. So Abby, when you were just saying about having the conversation with Glenin, that's so big because I feel like in this whole conversation, it's been like, well, this is a lie.

And this is a lie and this is a lie. And we're calling all of this lies or we're calling none of this lies. And so it feels like a really important conversation to have with the most important people in your life about how you define a lie. Totally. And what you actually want from someone else. Like, I actually, when I ask you how I look, am I looking for you to tell me what you actually think or not? Does that count as a lie?

Does that count as deception? Or do I not want you to think that? I decided very early that I was never going, I used to have like boyfriends who'd be like, what are you thinking about? What are you thinking about? And I'm like, so you're asking me to lie to you? Because I'm definitely not gonna tell you

what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about your best friend. Exactly. I'm thinking about how quickly can I get the hell out of here. And so there are certain things that like I actually don't want that level of accountability to you. But like what level of accountability do you want with the people in your life? What level of honesty do you want and what constitutes a lie to you are just really huge conversations that I don't think we ever have with people. It's the same like what constitutes cheating to you. Is it just sleeping with someone?

These are big deals because if we are in this world where it's so ill-defined, then we never know what it is. And same with our friendships. Like, I want to actually know from you, if you don't like something, like, I want to hear that from you versus all these other people, I don't want to hear that from them because I don't want that type of relationship with that. Same. I mean, Glenn and I, we went on a couple of walks and we talked about this and it was such a beautiful thing because we took the good and bad out of lying. So it wasn't like bad or good.

It was just like, hey, like, what kind of a liar do you think you are? We like just openly talked about it. And it really helped me understand. And I've been in therapy. So we've actually been talking about this for many weeks now. And I don't know. If you can just be super honest with your partner, let them provide you with what they think the lies are that they tell. And so it can offer some sort of guidance into knowing each other better

and to if you want help with that lie. Because I don't know, do you want help with your lying? I do. No, okay. I think that we're going to stop here. And you all pod squad are gonna think about what kind of liars you are and what your motivation is behind lying. And then we're gonna come back

and then I'm gonna tell you what kind of liar I am and sister will and then we have some freaking hilarious stories about lying that make me so happy. We love ya, we're all big liars. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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