We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 243. Oprah Shares “The Letter from Glennon that Freed Me”

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

The moment Oprah finally knew who she really was; The hidden gift of criticism, and the image to remember when you’re envious;   Why “Slugging It Out” is a losing game; How to let go of outcomes – and make peace with what you have to offer; and  Oprah reads the letter Glennon wrote to her after her mother died – which she says changed her life.   Read Oprah’s newest book BUILD THE LIFE YOU WANT. TW: @Oprah IG: @Oprah To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And it took some time, but I'm finally fine. Welcome back Pog Squad! Today is a big day! Buckle up Buttercups because today we have Oprah Winfrey! Ho ho ho! Over Winfick, baby! Wow, wow, wow! Wow! Do we are?

Yes! Do we are! Oh, wow, they're a sister! Hello, Miss Winfrey! Hey, Abs. How you doing? So good. You're so wonderful.

This is going to be fun. So fun! It is. It is. Thank you for sending this time with us. Oh, I wanted to spend this time with you. I've missed you so much. Oh, I missed you so much. I always just remember our first gathering under the oaks in my house. Super so Sunday. Oh my god. That was so fun. I know. Magical it was. It was and here we are and we get to talk about a new book and I have so many questions. I wanted to start with one of the strategies that you talk about in the book about happiness. Happiness strategy that I am now trying to implement in all areas of my life. happy and astray that I am now trying to implement in all areas of my life.

Can you talk to us about detached attachment and how you discovered this strategy through your experience with beloved detached. Oh my goodness. Beloved one of my greatest teachers of all times. You know, what I do know is that everything that is happening to you is there to teach you about yourself. And so even in some of my darkest moments, and recently I had a couple, you know, dark moments with bullying online. And I spent so much time going, okay, so now tell me, why is this happening? What am I supposed to learn from this? And how do I detach myself from the, whatever I was attached to?

And I start asking, what was it I was attached to? I was attached to the idea of whatever it was. So I learned this stupid love it. I learned that this thing that I'd worked on for 10 years and so loved and wanted other people to feel the same kind of joy and understanding of what it means to come through being an enslaved woman and still be able to love. I was attached to the idea of people getting that, but in getting it in the same way that I was. And I remember after it bombed, it was so hard for me to say the word bomb for a long time, because when people would say, it bombed, I'd be like, it really bombed. Well, it actually did. Bomb. And I knew that it was bombing

that, and there'd been so much publicity about it. I was on the cover of Time magazine and it was our beloved Oprah and all that. I mean, like more press than you've seen about anything and it bombed. And I remember getting the call. It opened on a Friday night and I remember getting the call Saturday morning saying, it's done, it bombed. And I remember getting the call, it opened on a Friday night, and I remember getting the call Saturday morning saying,

it's done, it's over. You've been beaten by the bride of Chuckie. Oh, good Lord. No. Yes. And I didn't know what Chuckie, I said, who's Chuckie? So I said,

and who's his bride? Hopefully his bride is really famous or something. Yes. And I went into a depression. I asked my chef that morning to make macaroni and cheese for breakfast. Yes. I ate my way through it. And for a long period of time, I was stuck in that wall. And it was a conversation with Gary Zucoff, who said to me, well, what did you really want? And I said, well, I wanted people to feel everything that I was feeling. I wanted the story to live in people's hearts away.

I'd live in the many. He said, well, I felt that. And I said, well, I wanted more than you. I actually wanted millions of people to feel that. And he said, well, if you wanted millions of people to feel it, you would have done a different kind of movie, as this wasn't a movie for millions of people. This was a movie for people who could receive it the way you wanted to give it and to present it. And so I learned in that experience that everything else that you ever do in your life is a gift or an offering.

You do it with the purest of intention to be a gift in an offering. And if people receive it, they receive it. And if they don't receive it, that's okay because your intention was to offer it as a gift. And so that is how I learn to detach from my attachments. So you're still attached to the offering because the complete detachment doesn't work for me. I have no idea how to be detached from anything. So really?

Yeah, oh yeah. So but I'm learning from this, I'm learning in terms of the pod. So all I can do is put everything into each hour with the guest, be in love with what they're doing and then let it go completely. Walk away from that hour and never check again. No expectation. And I've had to do this with my girls. You know, Glennon, you you you've been so helpful to me with my daughters and helped me with an intervention with one of my girls who was going through multiple trials and

You know, I now have 877 girls out into the world that I've put through school all of them have my email stress and still continue to contact with you with all their stuff and different levels of people, girls succeeding in the world and managing their lives to the extent that I would want them to. And I learned the sophomore year, one of my daughter girls who'd come here and was going to Wellesley and was having multiple mental illness issues and was miserable.

And I remember saying to her, well, do you want to go back to South Africa and she said, no, I'll just slug it out until my senior year. And I said, sluggings not going to be good for either of us because at the end, when you graduate, there is no joy in the slug. There's no joy in the slug. So I want you to be as happy as you can be now. Anyway, she ended up slugging it out and I learned in that experience that I wanted

to go to Wellesley. I had wanted to be in the white dresses and the graduation and the thing. And so I convinced her to go to that school instead of staying in South Africa. And that was my desire, not her desire. And it turned out to be a miserable experience for her. And I learned from that experience because it's nothing that ever happened to me. They're like, okay, what am I supposed to get for this? To release all of my expectations about what anybody else,

particularly the girls, would turn out to be, would do with the education, I offered the school, I did the school as an offering for girls to grow their own wings and to soar. And some grow, some don't, some take harder to grow than others, some take longer to actually leave the nest and fly. Can I be okay with just the offering of the school? Can I just accept that, Abby? You see what I'm saying, right? Yeah. Can I just accept that Abbey? You see what I'm saying, right?

Yeah. Everybody who's raising a teenager, a young adult knows exactly what you're saying. Can we be okay with just the offering? Can you just offer it? And whatever, whatever, and however they choose to receive it, be okay with that. Be okay with that.

And have no judgment about it. So I would have to say that even now, not being attached to the outcome of anything that I do, I realize that I started the People's Fund of Maui because I was so interested for myself in finding out what is the best thing that could help people in this moment in time. So the fires came y'all and in Maui, I was home that day and had been told that we were going to have to evacuate ourselves. And it was a scary time because how do you get all the

animals out? I have horses and dogs and a light. So which way are we going to go, which direction we're going to take? I got in the Jeep and gone down the road myself because I didn't trust all the reports to actually look at the fires myself to see where they were. And they really pretty contained. So I felt better about it after getting on the road and looking myself and saying there's one there and there's one there and there's one and they were saying to be security was saying there's one six miles from us there's one eight miles from us. So I got in the car myself and went and looked and I felt better and then decided to go take

a hike literally and as I was coming down from the hike I hiked up about two miles on the mountain and then I was coming down I started to, I hiked up about two miles on the mountain and then I was coming down I started to notice it getting dark, but it was the middle of the day It shouldn't have been getting dark and I was like what's going on? What kind of cloud is that coming in and it turned out to be a wall of smoke on the other side That was Lahaina burning in the middle of the afternoon Because the winds had changed and the fire came. So during that time, we were still trying to figure out for ourselves,

are we going to have to evacuate? What is going on? What is going on? And when we realized the devastation that had occurred across the way from us, on the other side of Maui in Lahaina. We were all just in the moment trying to figure out how I was, how to best serve. Do you know where the shelters, where the people were, and so those first couple of days I was literally going around to the shelters asking people, tell me what you need,

tell me what you need, tell me what you need. And at first it was just people needed underwear, people needed towels, people needed shampoo, and being able to keep themselves. And then people started to call me, text me, asking, where can we send money? Well, I didn't know. I said, well, I'm here on the ground.

I don't know where to send. Other than the Red Cross and the Humane Society, which I'd gone out and bought 300 pounds of dog food taken by the Humane Society, other than that, I don't know where to tell anybody. So I said, I will do some research myself. I started researching. There were some people on the ground doing things,

but nobody was getting money directly to the people. Dwayne, the rock had called saying, I'm so sorry for what's happening. Is there anything we could do? We started talking about having a fundraiser, a telephone, a concert, and in those discussions, realize it's going to take too long to do that. I said, that's going to take too long and that's going to take too much money. And in order to have a good concert and to do it in Honolulu, because you can't do it here, I said, that's going to

take millions and millions of dollars, better to take that money and give it directly to the people. In the meantime, my godson, Gail's son will sent me this article on Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton, when this happened in her hometown, Gatlinburg, had a concert and in that concert raised $12.5 billion. She called it my people's fun. I called Dolly. I sat down with Dolly's people, Dolly's team, her, the head of her foundation, Jeff. I said, Jeff, tell me how you all did this. So I was so exited. I went, oh my god. Okay. They were able to do that. So I thought, okay, what could we do if we built a team, right? Put together the rock and his team, my team, we decided we're going to have to get somebody to manage the money on the ground.

We call this firm EIF. We talk to them. We research them. We negotiated the fee down so that all the money other than what we were needing to pay people to actually be on the ground was going to go directly to the people. So I was so excited, so excited. Makes me wanna cry right now. I was so excited for the announcement.

So I said to the rock, listen, how much do you wanna put in? I said, I think $10 million would be great to start, because anytime you go to a charity, somebody's raising money, if somebody donates $10 million, that's a great start. And I have on many occasions Given $10 million and people are always excited with that 10 figure. So I said let's start with $10 million And invite other people to join us. So I got up in the middle of the night in Hawaii after it was being announced It was it was being announced at eight o'clock here. So that's two o'clock in the morning. I was so excited, so excited.

And I was hit with all of this victory all when I was hit with why aren't you paying for the whole thing yourself? And how dare you ask other people? And what's wrong with you? And why didn't your house burn down and all the, you know, everything from I had a blue light in the laser and I set the fires to, I set the fires because I was trying to, people were saying that I was deliberately doing this

because I was trying to get other people's. Like it was awful. It was awful, it was awful. And it made me so sad. It made me sad, but not just, it didn't make me sad for myself because it was it was like when I was on trial years ago for saying something bad about a burger. Texas did that to you. Texas did do that to you and the prosecutor and the attorney, the defense attorney, was yelling at me and saying, you are influential,

that you did this. You are. This woman is a liar. And she did this to deliberately destroy my clients. Well, a calmness came over me. And I felt like, well, he's not talking about me. I know that that is not who I am. So the trolling didn't affect my spirit because I know that's not who I am. I know that's not who I am.

So I don't know who you're talking about, but that's not who I am. But it did make me very, very sad. Because I thought, wow, this is what we've become. This is who we are. This, you live in a country now where you can say, let's do a world of good for people. And then you are attacked for that. And you know what I immediately start thinking?

What is it supposed to teach me? And I thought of every kid, every time I've ever said the word cyberbullying, but didn't understand really what that meant. I thought, oh, this is what happens if you don't know who you are. And the dark side comes for you. The dark triad as Arthur Brooks says, if the dark triad is coming for you and you don't know who you are,

you will get lost in it. You will get lost in the darkness. So it made me so sad because I thought, wow, we live in a world where this can now happen. But I was able to separate myself from it and the thing that I am most proud about myself is that I had prayer. And then I sat and I did my gratitude journal. I normally just do five things a day.

I think I did 27 that day sitting on the porch. I cried a little bit and I wrote a little bit. And then I got up and I went to visit my neighbors who lost their homes of the hill and asked them, what can I do to help you? So what were you attached to? So what were you attached to? Hmm. I think I was attached to the idea, you know, I was actually thinking this morning, Glenn, like, because I'm still going over it in my head, like, out of this happened, how did

this happen? What was I thinking before? I remember saying a prayer the night before, like, oh, gee, let this work, let this work. Hope this really works. I mean, the difference between what Dolly was doing and we were doing is that we have 10 times the amount of people. So, I remember thinking, let this work.

And I was thinking, okay, so I was attached to the idea of it being successful. I don't know. I still am trying to figure this one out. I still am trying to figure it out.. I still am trying to figure it out because on the ground where the people are actually receiving the help, the people are grateful, the people are thankful that there is a people's fun that saying, we're going to put money directly into your account. We're not even going to make you stand in line and wait

for a check because we were told by the elders, Dwayne and I sat in met with the elders before and they said, that's not going to work in Maui. Hawaiians are too proud. They will be, they will not want to come any place and stand in line and look like they're asking for money. But if you can find a way to just drop it in their accounts, they'll take it. They'll take it. So it wasn't, I don't know, I'm still figuring it out. And which is a good thing because I know it shall be revealed.

Yeah. And in the meantime, I just keep going forward. I keep doing the work. Keep doing the work. When you said, I know that's not who I am. keep doing the work. When you said, I know that's not who I am. When in your life did you know who you were? If you look at the timeline of your life,

and if that triad came for you at any point, can you pinpoint when you would say, you're not even talking about me? Because I think the confusion comes when you're not real sure maybe they are talking about you. Well, actually, I will have to say, sister, I can call you sister, right? Oh, I wish you would call me nothing else. I have to say that the epiphany moment was on trial in 1998 for saying something bad about a burger because up until that point, I mean, you all, I was dragged every week by the tabloids.

So the tabloids was my social media before. Steadman and I were dragged for everything. And the usual thing was, why won't he marry her? And why is she so fat? So I have been, you know, I think more than anybody else in this country made fun of, ostracized. It was a normal thing for all the comedians to make jokes about me on their nightly shows.

I mean, I didn't go on David Letterman for three or four years because he had done nothing but make these misbutterworth jokes about me. Misbutterworth, mis Miss Butterworth, yes. And so I was a very different woman before that trial. That trial blew me up. And before that trial, I was always calling my angelou, crying about something that somebody said.

And I remember one time I called her and I was in the bathroom, I'd cry, I don't even know what the thing was. I was in the bathroom door closed because people were in the house and I didn't want them to hear me crying and I was sitting on the toilet seat crying on the phone with her and she said, stop right now and say thank you.

And I said, I, but you're not here and what I'm saying. And she said, no, say thank you. And I said, hey, but you're not here. What I'm saying. And she said, no, say thank you right now. What am I saying? Thank you. She said, I said, thank you. And I said, thank you. She goes, I want to hear it. Thank you. Thank you. She says, you say, thank you. Because God's put a rainbow in the clouds. You just can't see it. And when you get to the other side, you'll be able to see that the rainbow was always there.

So say thank you, because you're going to come out on the other side of it, and you're going to be better. So the answer to that question is, before this, I was thrown by everything everybody said. I mean, if you listen, somebody made a negative comment, I would try to track them down. I could get a thousand great comments, and then one negative comment,

and I'd be calling them up. Why did you say that? And trying to convince them, you should have said that. And then it was six weeks of being on trial, six weeks of having your truth tested. And we all know that that's where trial is all about. And then I realized sitting there on the witness stand, oh, I have a really big life.

So therefore, I get the real trial, but everybody has trials. People have trials of divorce. They have trials of job failure, not succeeding, children, not working out the way you, raising children, the way you wanted to have trials in their life. And all trial stands outside of you to force you to be able to answer who am I really? It's what we talk about and build a life you want, that metacognition of being able to separate yourself from the feeling or the circumstance

or the trial or the challenge or the difficult. Oh, that's out here. So this past week going through all this online craziness stuff, I was like, oh, well, that's out here. So this past week, going through all this, you know, online craziness stuff. I was like, oh, well, that's out there. Literally, I'm sitting on my porch listening to the birds, singing. And that's out there. Yeah.

That's out there. How can I be detached from that? Yeah. It's that script. It's, I'm just thinking for the first time that this is what blessed are you when you're persecuted is. Yes. It's because we've got these voices inside of ourselves

that always telling us we're crap, right? They're like little, but then when it comes from the outside, when it really, really comes from the outside and you listen to it long enough, there's a part of you that stands up for yourself. Yes, yes, yes, because you know it's not true. You know it's not true. The epiphany moment, as you were saying, Amanda,

sister Amanda, as you were saying, that moment when he's literally holding up time magazine and he's saying, you are influential, aren't you? That's what it says here in Time Magazine. So you deliberately used your influence and I'm thinking, I wasn't thinking about influence. Everything you're saying is not true.

It is not true. And when I came down from the witness stand, I literally said to my producer, oh my god, you're going to love it. I was on the witness stand for two days straight. I said, you're going to love it up there. She go, I don't think so. I said, oh, yeah, because you're going to get to figure out who you really are. You're going to get to figure out who you really are.

And that was sweet. That was sweet. That was sweet. I say, that was a big test to come to that realization, but I came away from that with an knowingness about myself that I did not have before the trial. That's what the trial taught me. This is who you are. This is who you are.

So would you say now when it comes, like it came this past week? Are you able to recover faster? Because I think it's it's beautiful to hear that you still it's when people say just develop a tough skin and it will never affect you. That's not real, is it? It does hurt. At first, right? Would you say it? Yes, it hurts at first. I was stunned. I was more stunned. Did you say it? Yes, it hurts at first. I was stunned, I was more stunned, disappointed, and saddened that this is where we are in our country,

that this could happen. I mean, there isn't anybody who's lived a straighter, more deliberately trying to be good life, raised as a good girl, that whole good girl syndrome, all that stuff. There's nobody who has paid more taxes, don't have the offshore funds, not trying to get away with anything,

literally just doing the right thing. And I was like, how could this be? It does, did not compute for me. So trying to understand that. Is that what you're attached to? Good. I'm good. Yeah.

That's good. That's good therapy right here. That's good therapy right here in the little podcast. This is fantastic. One time when I was having a good girl breakdown because somebody said I was bad, I was talking to Liz Gilbert on the phone crying to her. And I said, you know, it's like that Steinbeck thing. I said, now that we don't have to be perfect,

we can be good. And she said, no, no, no, no. Now it's now that we don't have to be good. We can be free. Woo! Fantastic, Liz. That's great. That's a good thing.

That's what we're all striving for. Is the freedom, is the freedom the freedom is the freedom is the liberation is the liberation and what I found is you know what love liberates love liberates and when you're able to offer it and able to receive it that's when the deepest sense of freedom comes is when you can give and receive it openly with no attachment. With no attachment. Speaking of love and freedom, I want to talk about your parents for a moment if that's all right. You lost your mother, Verneida Lee, in 2018, and your father, Verne and Winfrey last year. You told me that after her parents died, Gail said she felt unmoored, like she'd lost her anchor to the earth.

And I have a friend who told me recently that her relationship with her parents was so complicated that her grief after their passing was tinged with a newfound lightness, like a first time freedom for her. And I'm free to also freedom, yeah. I didn't feel that, but can I just say this, that the email that you sent me after my mother passed, was the most freeing offering, was the most freeing, was the most visionary, and was the most profound thing I'd ever experienced in terms of dealing with that passing.

Because you said that she would now be able to finally see me. And that freed me. I had this vision over when I heard about your mom's passing and it was just like a, and I had a vision of your mom being in a different place wherever people go. And her being able to look back on the earth.

Like this is quite crazy but true, Abbie knows. And just seeing the whole planet lit up. Yeah. Just lit up lights everywhere all over the planet, all lives that you had touched. And then I felt her seeing that for the first time, her impact. And then I felt, oh my God, then she will understand

for the first time that she was part of that. That is a, she's gonna be so freaking proud. Well, you being able to put that in an email to me was the best eulogy, was the best sermon, was the best offering I received. Period, full stop. I don't know how that came to you. You said you were just sitting out somewhere and you just decided you were going to write that to me and it changed me. It changed me and I think it opened me to receive the spirit of my

mother in a way that I had not thought I would. You know, I, in Maya's passing, you know, still feel Maya, felt her presence, felt her with me. I filled her abiding in me. I feel more Maya like now. And I hear myself saying things and moving through the world and it's my Mayaness coming through. And I always felt that because I lacked a connection with my mother here on earth, that that would not happen, that wherever the spirits are, that I would, she would not be a part of me and I of her, even though she had given birth to me.

But what you wrote to me in that email, opened the channel for me to receive her in a way that I would not. And so when I wrote to you and told you, how you blessed me with that email, that you blessed me or meager words do not measure up to what you really did was you opened the channel for me to be able to receive the spirit of her

in a way that I would not have. Good job. Good job, Lenin. Good job, Lenin. Good job. Yes. Yeah. Did you know you did that?

No, Oprah, I did not. You know that. I tried, I tried to tell you in the email, but. Thank you. That's what you did for me. When was the last time Oprah that you had a side splitting laugh? When was the last time Oprah that you had a side splitting laugh? Oh, I will tell you that

Gail and I have side splitting laugh, not side splitting. We have like, yeah, we're rarely side splitting on the phone but when we get together, there's side splitting. I tell you who, I have one of my daughter girls is a is a is a budding actress and She Tondo cracks me up all all the time and She was just She she had just had a big skin breakout and had used some products by some famous person's name. I won't mention.

But and she was just recently in the in the CBS store and sent me a text of all of this person's products on display. And she said, Oh, there they go again. Spread and zits throughout the universe. Yeah, there they go again. But she just, I mean, she is so funny that when I just say her name and I start to laugh because she's got, because every time I text her, call her, she's like, mama, mama, she doesn't call me mama.

It's mama, mama. So mama, it's mama, mama. So no, it's utondo. So wonderful. Okay, can you, there's a part in your book where you talk about envy. Is there anybody Oprah that you're still envy, so? Ooh, no. Don't, it doesn't exist for me.

Wow. So good. Doesn't exist for me. Wow. So good. Doesn't exist for me. Do you have an MVA version of yourself that you're not yet? Doesn't exist for me. She's a real varsity over here people. No. Doesn't exist for me. I feel like if I was like India's of anybody, the way the law works of coming back to you, I think I just would get slapped in the face immediately because guys, is there anybody who has a more awesome incredible life? I mean, when you think about, I hike a lot now, and I'm always not focusing on where I'm trying to get to, but I consciously stop and take breaths

and turn around and look at how far I've come. Damn. Yeah, that's how I get myself come. Damn. Yeah. That's how I get myself to the top. Not by focusing on the top, but looking back at how far I've come and say, whoa, you didn't think you could make it to that point. You didn't think you could get to the tree.

We have a big tree out there in the center of halfway up, like we call it the hope tree. You didn't think, look at how we got there in 40 minutes. And it used to take you 55. And on the first day, you did it, it was an hour and 38. And so I look back at how far I've come and think, wow, I've already been farther than I thought I was gonna make it today.

I now think I can go a little further. And the way I do it is, I't focus on where I got to get to. I just focus on one step after the next step, after the next step. And I let that become the rhythm of my entire body, just what is the next step, but is the next step, what is the next step. And that turns out to be a great metaphor for living. I have no, I don't, I can't,, but I envy nobody. And you talk about just the next step. You say, Steadman will have an outcome, plan, plan, plan, but for you, you, you, you stay in the

moment and let intuition guide you. I tend to over prepare, get nervous, freak myself out. Do you not get nervous, freak myself out. Do you not prepare for things? Are you just, you bring your full self and you trust that you will know what to say, what to ask? Hmm, for some things, I think you need preparation. For instance, I'm speaking at an event tonight and for weeks I was thinking about, what am I gonna say, what am I gonna say?

I always know that by the time I get there, something's gonna show up for being to say. So last night I started organizing that in a way that I could be concise because for graduation or something like that, you don't wanna be up there rambling, you want to make these points, these points, these points, and get off. But I just have the confidence to know that I live long enough, I know enough things, I know how to talk, I know how to talk.

I know I'm going to be able to, if I have a central point to talk about, I know I'm going to be able to, if I have a central point to talk about, I know I'm going to be able to share that as an offering in a way that it will resonate and land with people. I feel confident about that. You should too, Ms. Gleinen, because you are damn good. I can't tell. You are so damn good. You're so darn good at that.

So darn good at it. So you angst about it? Oh yeah, but I'm. You're doing better. I'm playing with the idea that I can just be me. I'm not sure about it. I mean, I went into a meeting, O'Brien. I said, what am I supposed

to do when the person with me said, just be yourself. And I said, listen, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up. That's the funniest thing. Because that's really all there is? Listen, I made a career out of it. I made an entire career out of it. And the most comfortable space I've ever been in is sitting on that Oprah show for 25 years. I was, I just, I was never more of myself than with that audience every day.

I mean, I felt like millions of people were like, felt familial to me in a way. Because I've reached the point where I felt comfortable sharing myself in a way that I would not be judged by people. And even if I was, I'd track it down and see what. But I know that there is, there is no other answer, you know, it's kind of a favorite jockey line of ours, you know, whenever I'm going off someplace or going to be speaking or something big has happened, somebody in the family will say, just be yourself.

Just be yourself. But I love you saying, I don't know what's longer that can work for me. I don't know the hell that means. I'm gonna take you to the end, Glenn. And say to the end, Sister Glennon. All right. I already asked you if I could ask this. I want to ask you about a part in the book that made me raise my eyebrows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. Okay, made me raise my eyebrows even through my Botox. And I just want to read it to you and get your thoughts about it.

It's a part that Arthur Brooks wrote, not you. Okay. Okay. So he's talking about friends conflict and how to handle it. And he says, quote, maybe your friends are religiously opposed to something about the way you live. And you conclude that they are quote denying your humanity. Okay, that's in quotes denying your humanity. And he says, we're not talking about abuse here, just difference in beliefs. Yeah. He goes on to say, this is completely self-defeating because it leads to your loneliness and isolation. The solution in this case is humility. Oprah, I gotta tell you, I had to put this all down.

I had to have to circle my room, walking, abbyos, circling the room walking. What? Okay, my thoughts about this are, I think, first of all, my queer self was triggered because I felt like the words religiously opposed and then putting denying your humanity in quotes made me feel like he was suggesting that denying your humanity was kind of like a overstated, right? I don't think he intended that, but go ahead. Okay. I want to know what it is that triggered, what it is about that triggered you. What is it about that? Yes. That didn't sit well with you that made you feel somehow confronted or

Yes. Something I was attached to. I was going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I felt like it was written like from a person's point of view whose humanity had never been questioned. Because I felt like anybody who puts denying your humanity in quotes as if it's not a real thing who puts denying your humanity in quotes as if it's not a real thing. Is someone who has never felt what it feels like to have someone else's religious views doubt your very divinity or your very...

Reason to be, to exist. Reason to exist. And I thought, isn't it interesting for a person whose humanity has clearly never been threatened in a way that makes him relate to that, suggests humility for the other person. Because to me, it feels like, you know, person who's trying to deny your humanity should have some humility. It should be humble about it. It was just an example of why sometimes reading a white man's perspective gets tricky because he's suggesting humility for the very people I think who should not be

choosing humility because to me he suggests that if we do not be humble in that moment, if we confront the other person or we draw a boundary, then we will end up lonely and isolated. But the times I felt lonely and isolated are when I don't confront the person, when I just say, okay, your difference of opinion or your belief, I guess is okay. It's not a deal breaker. Between us.

Well, I think it depends upon what you are willing to sacrifice to get along with the other person. In my own relationships, I have perhaps sometimes chosen humility with my family and in other times I've chosen divorce. I've chosen I no longer want to be a part of this relationship and I humbly take myself out of it. You know, I humbly remove myself from being in contact with someone who feels that demeaning me or diminishing me or doesn't see me for who I really am.

So I think my interpretation of it is, you must sacrifice that if you really want the relationship with the person and my experiences, I've chosen that I'd rather not have the relationship. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sayonara. Sayonara. I love that that I'd rather not have the relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

Sayonara. Sayonara. Sayonara. I love that. I humbly. I never see you again. I will humbly. Never see you again.

Peace out. And I do me peace. Peace out. Yes. Yes. And that was a real hard one for me, you know, because when I first started making money and my salary was published in the newspapers, I don't even know how they got the salary because I was like, really?

I'm making that much money and I went to my account and go, is this true? So you can no longer say to your family or all the people coming to your money, I don't have it. And I realized that when I first started making money that I've been taking care of my family since and everybody who's listening to us right now, if you're the one or the certainly the first one in your family to succeed, you're looking at Abby. You're the first one in your family to succeed. You become the first national bank.

Yes. And this is the thing that I teach my girls starting in eighth grade. If you choose to be successful in my number one thing you're going to have to manage is all your family and all the people who feel like that success is owed to them. And so for me, in the beginning, I did not know how to handle it. Because saying I didn't have it, you know, when I was making $22, $25,000, $50,000 a year, I didn't have enough to service everybody in the family. So I distinctly remember that I was in Baltimore that everybody always only needed $500. My family members, that was a number. $500.

The day, and I do mean the day. I moved to Chicago and there was a picnic at my mother's house in Milwaukee. Everybody needed $5,000. Wow. Costal limit in Milwaukee. Nobody asked me for 500. Everybody needed $5,000.

$5,000. I have sister asked me, my aunt asked me, two cousins asked me, everybody, $5,000. So I had to learn how to manage that in such a way that wow. I felt so put upon so unseen for myself, the thing we're talking about. So denied my humanity denied by multiple family members who just thought I was their bank. Thought I was their bank. And if you don't do it, then something's wrong with you because we're family, we're blood, that whole blood thing.

What I don't even, I don't remember, hey, I'll remember me. I'm your cousin. We're blood. Hey, I'll remember me, blood. I actually had a fourth cousin, not third, fourth cousin, not third fourth cousin. Say to me, y'all, I was in the house

the night you was born. Now that's got to be at least 25,000. No way. It's not gonna be nice. I was not at least that. For all those who were there in the house, 25 for you. 25. That's got to be worth at least 25,000. Yes, you did say that to me.

She did. So how did you humbly remove yourself? The dinner of lifetime. The dinner of lifetime. The dinner of lifetime. Where I had all the family and all the friends and all the people. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time.

You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time.

You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time.

You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not a time. You're not this is what you're getting and please don't come to me anymore. And then the people who came afterwards, I humbly remove myself from their lives. It's what I do. Humble restraining orders for all of them. I humbly now remove myself. It's all fun and games, but you said from 86 to 98, you had no family relationships, because you couldn't actually be in a real relationship based on people because people were just coming to you all the time. Which is all the time.

Which is sad. Yeah, kind of sad. Kind of sad. I did the thing, guys, where I wanted to have one time, you know, when I first, I bought a farm in Indiana and I had this, you know, career and Ives idea, the Christmas and the trees and the slaves and the dogs and the whole thing. And I brought all my family together. It was the worst experience. It was, don't never do that again. That was the first and last time that ever happened. There was no nothing. No, no, everybody was mad. I knew as people were arriving, I could feel it. I could feel the tension. You know what I was feeling? I was like, where am I gonna get? Where am I gonna get? What am I gonna get? And then she got, she got more and she should have had more and she should have

more and I, they hoped it was an Oprah's favorite things episode. Oh my gosh. It was interesting. But anyway, I think, you know, I've reached a point now where I feel a great sense of contentment in my life, even when I was going through all this stuff last week, I was thinking, wow, I feel so good that I've reached a point of my mental spiritual involvement, that even in the midst of crisis, I still know that I'm okay and I'm going to be okay. That's a wonderful thing. And that's not you know, gleeful happiness, but I am able to in the midst of any trial make myself happier.

I think that's my favorite part of the book is what's really stayed with me too, is the idea that happiness is not dependent on not having unhappiness. Correct. That you need it to balance. Yeah. It's the end of the year. Yeah. And it's the cloudy days that make the sunny ones so great.

I'm the opposite. I love cloudy days. So I think, oh, yeah, you got to get some sunny days in there. And we're going to get the clouds to come back. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sunny days create too many expectations. Yeah, they're busy.

The journey of the sun. The sun is coming out. You got to come out or you're depressed. That's right. Or you got to do something. You got to have activities. You got to enjoy it. The sun is like the epitome of toxic positivity.

It's like, sun is out. Exactly, exactly. But a cloudy like, set it down. Exactly, exactly. But a cloudy day, a rainy day, wow, you just get, it's liberation for me. Like, no expectations. Oprah, we love you. You are a just in it, man. You're my north star, and I am

and grateful for every single. Off the heat. You got me my followers. I wanted to see if I can find Glimmin's email. I have it. Where is it? I want to just read that to the people if I can. See it. I had it for so long.

I printed it out and I have it in my drawer. So that Glimmin, I always, in times of trial, can go back to it. Mm-hmm. See if it's going to come up. I don't know in this moment. It's not. It's okay. It wasn't meant to be. I wanted to so much. So I thank you all for having me on here. You're the freaking most best. She's the most best. That's what Oprah is. Not it got it got it. Oh, okay. This is written 112618. 2618. And the subject is on mothering love. Hello, my friend, my sister, my example. I'm sitting on a balcony on Cayman Island and right at this moment, writing an essay about the word

mother. What that word really means, how it's less to me, a fixed identity we can be or not be and more and energy we can offer or not offer. The essay is about how some of us who can check the box mother never really learn how to offer mothering love and how others of us who don't check the box harness it and offer it widely and wildly. The essay is about how much better off the world would be if we gathered up mothering love and used it like a flood light instead of a pointed laser aimed only at the few we have been assigned. As I'm writing this essay on the balcony, my sister just sent me a text that says, gee, Oprah's mother died. She was 83. I wanted you to know. I just

got that text a minute ago. I would never presume to guess what your relationship was like, how complex it was, and is to be your mother's daughter. What your feelings are this week, what your feelings have been or will be. I just wanted to say that you are my example of how to gather up mothering love and use it as a flood light to illuminate and warm the world. You are my and the world's best example of grace, which means that we can somehow give what we've never even received. I don't know much, but from everything you bravely say and kindly don't say, I've gathered that you didn't get the mothering love you deserved and needed as a little girl. And to grow a girl, to me, that is what makes you a miracle. It is a miracle that somehow you took the broken pieces that she put in your hands, all

of them, and you spun them into gold and opened your hands wide and offered that gold back to the world, which is not just a gift to the world. It is a gift directly back to your mother because you worked with what she gave you, ensured that her legacy through you is gold. With your help, your mother's legacy is gold. What a gift. If there is a heaven, she can see that now. She can see that her miraculous daughter somehow, somehow turned her offerings to gold. God, that she's amazed and grateful. Well done, good, faithful, miraculous, badass, servant in your corner forever. My friends, that is my letter from Glenin that freed me.

And I thank you. my letter from Glinnon that freed me and I thank you. I love you. Thank you. We love you very much, Oprah. Thank you for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Okay, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and helps you, because you'll never miss an episode,

and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved for the friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. I walked through a fire I came out the other side.

I chased as I er, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So man, a final destination And we'll stop asking directions And some places they've never been. And to be loved we need to be known. We'll finally find our way back home. And through the joy and pain that our lives I hate rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star.

I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart. And I continue to believe the best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on man A final destination with that We stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a hard thing This poor adventurous and heartbreak breaks on my way Mike lost, but we're only in that Stopped asking directions And some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be loved

We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain that our lives breathe We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things you