We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 256. How to Host a Magical Gathering with Priya Parker

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Priya Parker is here to discuss what Glennon called “the most important thing in the world” – connection – and how to make our time with other people have more of it. She teaches us:  How �� whether it’s a wedding or a retirement party – you can create new gathering rituals that forge truer, deeper relationships; Why the outcome of every gathering is decided before anyone steps in the room; and  Why so many of us hate parties – and what to do about it.  For the The Art of Gathering online course giveaway go to priyaparker.com/hardthings About Priya: Priya Parker is a conflict facilitator, strategic advisor, international speaker, and acclaimed author of The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters and host of the podcast TOGETHER APART. She is the creator and host of The Art of Gathering digital course, about how to make meaning with and for our people. She lives in Brooklyn, New York with her husband and two children. TW: @priyaparker IG: @priyaparker To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You've stopped asking directions, some places they've never been. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We are today talking about the most important thing in the world. Is that true? I think so. Okay. I'm ready for this. Yeah, right? I mean, on this Earth, we have only a few resources

and two of the most important are time and relationships. And yet, it feels like we have not figured out how to use time to deepen or in live and make ourselves closer to other people. We have figured out how to gather people together, spend some time and then leave, but not use the time to make our relationships better. And today we have a friend and a world-renowned expert

on how to do that and how to use our time and spaces to make our lives better by making our relationships better. And that is, of course, pre-aparca. Pre-aparca is a conflict facilitator, strategic advisor, international speaker, and a claimed author of the art of gathering, how we meet and why it matters. And she is also the host of the podcast together apart. She is the creator and host of the art of gathering digital course about how to make meaning with and for our people. And all of you should know that Priya is actually going to give away 50 of those courses to pod squatters. So stay tuned. Priya lives in Brooklyn, New York with her husband and two children. Priya, thank you for coming on

to talk about the most important thing in the world. Thank you so much for having me. What an introduction. You're already modeling incredible hosting as you all do. Yes. Really? I think we can actually end right there. It's okay answering the world. We're good. So a cool thing, Priya, is that the reason this podcast started, the ideation of it began when Alison

our business partner, Creative Director, Friend, Sister, started going on walks with her friends during the pandemic. And together they realized that they were getting together but not talking about the most important things in their lives. So they made a pact that they would each to the walk each week while they were socially distanced or whatever we were doing back then. They would each bring their hard thing.

And then they would walk and they would each discuss their hard thing. And then the walk would be over and nobody would solve each other's shit, but they would know each other better and feel less alone. Don't you think that's a good example? It's a perfect example of gathering, coming out of an actual need. And the space and time forced of the pandemic, but the space and time to actually be still enough to pause without judgment and ask, what is it that I actually am yearning for? What am I longing for?

When I'm not in the like autopilot, manic, day-to-day busyness of my life, where I've already said yes to things three years ago that I don't even remember I've said yes to, because the pandemic paused all of that temporarily. There was this little nugget. Oh, I long for my friends. Oh, which friends?

I'm not longing for all of them. That's right. There's some data here, right? Which friends? I'm not long and for all of them. That's right. There's some data here. Right? Like this pandemic, as awful and terrifying as it was, was this forced space, a social, forced space,

to actually ask, how do I want to spend my time? And with home? And where is their desire? And where is their obligation? And where is their obligation that I choose to recommit to? And where is their desire that I want to spark? And part of what was so interesting in the pandemic was that because we could no longer have the default patterns of how we talked to our friends, right? You literally couldn't walk together side by side. You couldn't brush shoulders. I mean, maybe if you're

a part of the same pod or in the same unit, yes. But what it basically did was it hit us over the heads with a jackhammer of like, the way you are doing things right now, you can't do. And so like any major disruption in our life, we are normalists. Right. We are slightly in panic, but also if you stay still enough, you pause. I love so many of your your episodes in so many moments and so much of your conversation is around addiction. in so many moments and so much of your conversation is around addiction. And the moment we're like pausing, and listening to that knowing,

and blocking out all of the distractions that are trying to get you away from that knowing, and realizing, oh, there's a desire here. And what these friends did on this walk was, oh, I'm longing for other people. Which people? How given the constraints of this moment might we spend time together? Oh, just getting together may not feed me. We can talk about all sorts of things. We can spend all of our times to either sing on the surface or just going through the

same geographic territory of our conversations for the last 12 years. I'm bored. How do we do this differently? And what they did was the first biggest step in transforming how you gather, which is they started with a need. They started with an intention. They started with a purpose. Oh, I want to go walking with my friends and have depth. How do we do that?

And then they found some structure to do that. And then it ended. This isn't forever. We go part our ways afterwards. So I love this example that this is the founding almost like brick of we can do hard things. It is kind of a whole story of just slightly tilting how we gather away from these like autopilot

wrote boring formats that someone else in another time created. Yes. And we get to choose if we want to repeat it or throw it out or keep some of it and invent a new. Crea Parker. Okay. Wow, you are good at the Venn diagram of what you're doing and what we're doing. So we are starting with

desire. We are going inside. We are starting with desire. This is what I'm hearing you say. I desire this and this and this from these people. Sometimes I need adventure. Sometimes I need quiet. What is the desire? And we are staying fluid because we're not creating a concrete pattern that then we have to keep forever. We're staying in desire. Maybe what I need this month is different the next month. And we are doing things by design instead of default. We are not doing things outside in

just because the pattern is that we're all supposed to meet for dinner and drinks after eight o'clock and that that's not what we have to do anymore. We can start from the inside and decide what we need and what we want and then act from there. And sometimes even before desire, as you all know, desire is kind of hard to get to. Yeah, it is.

So sometimes it just starts from curiosity. Yes, that's it. What am I feeling here? What, real example, friend of mine who's turning 50, and he never had a problem with birthdays. And he was just feeling uncomfortable. Before, like leading up to it. And there was kind of this obligation or in his head, it's like, I should probably have a birthday party, right? It starts with the form.

And instead, his really paying attention partner said, you seem a little off. What's going on? And he said, you know what? The age is really bothering me. And she said, why? And he said, because if I actually think about it, 50 is the age that when I see my peers, they stop expanding. Wow. They've started to contract. They take the less scary job assignments and take the more cushy ones. They start kind of making sacrifices

that wilt their energy. And I don't wanna do that. So what he decided to do, right? He named a desire and a fear and a need. And for his 50th birthday, he only invited the people in his life who embody expansion. And he didn't announce this like to them in advance. But in the moment, he had a dinner and at the beginning of the dinner,

and the dung is glass, ding, ding, ding. One of the biggest mistakes we make when we gather is we under host. We under-tell people what they mean to us. We under-contextualize, why are we here? Why have I invited you? Why do I see you? And why have you said yes?

And he literally took 45 seconds and he changed the entire room. And he said, exactly what I just told you. I have, this has been a really hard age for me. You all know me, I'm not somebody who usually, like gets thrown off by things. I realize I'm really afraid of contracting. And each of you in different ways are people

who always expand. Each of ways are people who always expand. Each of you are people who, when it could be easier to keep contracting, you go on that adventure, whatever that adventure might look like. And as he started to talk about it to each person in the room, Paul, even though you're 73, you take risks that I would be terrified to at, 22. Gina, even though you haven't turned 43 yet, you are somebody who, when you make decisions, the way you do, the way you chose

to leave your partner, right? It allows me to be more courageous. And in literally 45 seconds, he tells them where they're there. He creates meaning. He creates a real and authentic need. He makes them feel of use rather than used. And he basically says, for my 50th birthday, my only wish to you is for me, for the next 50 years, when I'm at any cross point, where you always blow courage my way.

Whoa! And that is so beautiful because that isn't just making that moment beautiful. It's allowing each of those people to know him so well, to know what they need from him, to know like if it's six months from now and I'm thinking about doing that hike, you know who I should invite him because I know that his intention for this year and beyond is to do precisely this thing. Yeah, it literally changes the future. Yes, it changes the future. That's right.

Right, I am going to change who I think of because of this moment. And not just for him, wow, say I'm a guest at that party. And I leave, and two years later, I'm debating whether to make a big decision. And I remember someone saw me as someone who takes my sleeve. Right?

Gathering is culture-making. We think of gathering as this like sweet thing that's full of connection, and it is. But gathering is world creation. Gathering is line drawing. Gathering is literally saying, I want to create this temporary alternative world that is a mosh pit, that is a soccer match, that is a 95th birthday party on a fishing dock. Won't you come in and be a guest in this temporary way?

I think this moment matters. I am leaving my partner. I am honoring my daughter as she has her period in a world that is not modeling how it is to celebrate being a woman. And I want to create a period party for her. Won't you come? And yes, men are invited too, because they're relationally related to this.

I'm making this up. But literally how we gather is what we create and make as normal. Yes, but it's not rocket science. It works backwards because it's like what you just said about that leaving I've left a marriage. Like we just gather sadly with that. What the hell is that? Divorce, I mean, sorry, this can be an unpopular opinion, but divorce, almost 100% of the time, is a decision that what was is not good enough to stay in, which means it's a new beginning,

which means it's almost always a hopeful, painful, but also a brave bold step towards the future and towards more and towards bigger and towards life. But if we gather and cry about it just because that's what we've always done, what if we had, like we have graduation parties, divorces largely graduation, why aren't we having soulful, like it doesn't have to be frivolous, but shouldn't we gather in a milestone honoring the courage of a divorce as a new beginning? I wrote the art of gathering before the pandemic hit.

And when I conducted my research for that book, I interviewed over a hundred different types of gatherers from all walks of life who other people credit with disproportionately creating transformative experiences. And one of the things I saw again and again in my research was that traditional communities, so defined by your born and die on the same plot of earth, you pray to the same God or goddess, right?

You eat the same food, you believe the same food is taboo, like whatever it is, they have pretty beautiful specific transformational rituals. So in like Indonesia, in a very specific Javanese village, when there's like a tooth filing ceremony of the three-year-old, everyone burst into tears because they understand what the symbolism is. That has been a tradition that's been passed down generation and generation. South India, you go to a red thread tying ceremony and a red thread is tied around a specific wrist and everyone bursts into tears.

Why? Because they understand the symbolism of the thread. They have images of their like last five generations of ancestors doing the same thing and their progeny doing the same thing. As we've modernized, as we've diversified, as we've married people who are different from us, a good thing. I'm biracial, I'm bi-religious, I come from a family of divorce, I live these things very deeply. So much of basically what happens is we've thrown the old ways out. And we're in this kind of confused moment where we've thrown out the ritual because it has

been oppressive or it has been patriarchal or it has been focused on only the eldest son or whatever it have you and saying, we don't want that. But actually we need ritual. And ritual and gathering and saying this moment matters rather than saying, this is a tool that is bad. It's not bad. it's a tool. And so when you throw a divorce party to take your example, it is actually pausing and asking,

what is the need now? What is the reality now? What is important to mark? What is taboo and shame and what is not? And so part of what you're able to do when you gather is it's actually literally changing what people think of as normal. Yes. And of marking the transition. And you can do a dinner. It doesn't have to be a party. You could do a dinner and say, everyone at this table has made a hard choice. That was the right kind of hard. It can be a meaningful

deep celebration. We always give women who have done really hard things, these Joan of Arc medallions. Medallions, that's just like you went towards the fire. ["The Fire"] Oris is a 119 year old independent watch brand based out of Holstein, Switzerland. The brand has been certified climate in carbon neutral since 2021, and every year releases a sustainability report.

Ores only makes mechanical watches, like the new Propilot X-Calibre 400, and the new Propilot Altimeter featuring a 3D printed carbon case. Discover the full Ores collection at a retailer near you or at oris.ch. Aorus, go your own way. I love what you said about the creation of culture. I don't think that is very commonly appreciated, but just

your example in your own life about your baby shower. When you think about baby showers, you know, a bunch of women who are around a woman who's about to give birth and you get what that ritual is about, you know, surrounding, giving, helping to defray the costs of bringing someone into the world, sharing wisdom, sharing tips, sharing, this is what works for me. And who's there? Just women. So that is cultural creating. The wisdom being passed down, the kind of planned obsolescence of the father

in that format, where he is not present. And how cultural shifting it would be to be like, no, a father and a mother are sitting there to receive the wisdom as if it belongs to each of them equally. It is a cultural formation moment. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so often we inherit these rituals, right?

Baby shower or bachelorette or graduation party and we assume there's a specific form. We have to do it this way. Of course, I would only invite women or of course I'm going to have a baby shower or bachelorette or graduation party and we assume there's a specific form. We have to do it this way. Of course, I would only invite women or of course, I'm going to have a baby shower or of course, I'm going to call it a baby shower. And yet, I mean, to take this example, very specifically, so I'll give an example of a real couple. One of the things I kept hearing from people over and over again is like, but how do I actually do this? Break it down for me. I'm about to have my partner and I heterosexual couple, my husband, I about to have a baby. We do not want to repeat the patterns of our parents. We want a parent in a way that we have not seen before, which is co-parenting, which is involving the husband as a co-equal partner. But the rituals that we have are surrounding only the mother

and that's around birth, but what about parenting? You mentioned earlier, I just launched a digital course and I, over the last two years I've been working on this and they were one of our beta couples. And so they came in and they basically were like, okay, literally, how do I do this? I don't want to do pin the diaper on the baby. So like, what's the alternative, right?

And so they pause and ask the first lesson, which is, what is our actual need? The biggest mistake we make when we gather is we assume the purpose is obvious and shared. Oh, I know what a baby shower is. I know what to do there. I know how to like make the onesie and put the glue art on. And they pause and she said, I realized I'm terrified of birth. And we want to have a community where it's normal to co-parent.

And so they didn't said, how do we do this? And they, again, two different needs. They created two different gatherings. One was a birthing ceremony, and that was just with women. So part of the art of gathering is not inviting everybody. Yes. Right? It's like, not everybody should be at everything.

There's a purpose. There's a need. In that case, it doesn't make sense for people who haven't been through birth to be giving advice about giving birth. It's okay to draw a line. So they created a small ritual for her to prepare her and to your walk example of depth.

Instead of just coming and like wishing her love, which in and of itself is helpful, they each were invited to share a story from her life in which she already embodied the value that will also serve her in birth. Oh! Like, you were so brave, then when you did this thing. Or you, and then,

you're brave exactly. You're brave, exactly. The past, her past, that she already had everything she needed inside her, like Dorothy. Exactly. And we see this in you. And we, and right, again, all of the other people,

oh, these are qualities that are noticed. Oh, this is this other facet of my friend I haven't seen, right? It is life giving to everyone there. She's a vessel, but she's also a vessel for all of us, right? It's like watering the garden of every guest. And then separately, they started to walk through, okay, what is the actual structure? We know a need is we don't want a parent the way

our parents parented, but like, okay, so what? Like, how do I actually do this, Priya? Like practical, practical, practical. So in this course, literally they break down what's the structure? What is the infrastructure? What's the coordinating mechanism? What's the math and the poetry to coordinate this community to have something that they haven't had before and explain to the men why they may be there. And they invited literally what you said, they had a dinner party. And then they had a dance party. And at the dinner party, they invited six couples. And they told them ahead of time, they didn't spring it on them. Please bring a story of one way you want to repeat and offer to our child and our family. One way you are parented that you love and one way you are parented that stops with this

generation. And that was the dinner. Okay. I just have to say this because I think that you said something early on around fear that I think is super interesting and something that I think a lot of us are probably thinking right now while listening. You have to have a sense of audacity to want to go against the norm of said party that you're trying to plan. And that fear and vulnerability of will people like it? Yeah.

How do you like work through that? I'm sure that this is a question you get a lot. Like, because I'm thinking. Totally. I don't even like to celebrate my own birthday. Yeah, or I'm scared to say, can you bring a dessert? I don't want nobody to say anything. I'm gonna say a story about your parents' same goal saying.

How do we overcome that? I'll start with this way. I'm a conflict resolution facilitator. You all know that about me. And people often say like, what does conflict have to do with gathering? It's like, oh, honey, it has everything to do with gathering. And one of the things, one of the rules in conflict resolution is that 90% of what happens in an event in a gathering happens before anyone enters the room. Wow. It's the preparation. It's the need. It's the priming of your guests.

It's not like entering, say you come from a specific family that has always done baby showers in a certain way or always done the family reunion in a certain way and no one really always done the Passover Seder in a certain way, always done the, like, name your favorite, you know, ritual tradition in the same way. And then springing on at that moment in this heightened moment or everyone is expecting a certain thing, be like, I'm actually going to do something kind of different. It begins long before anyone enters the room.

And it's an organizing project. And so gathering doesn't start when people enter. It starts at the moment of discovery in your guests' mind and you're hosting them all the way through. So I'll give another example. There was a journalist who called me up and she was saying, I want to host a dinner party. Can you art of gathering a fine-might dinner party?

And I was like, what do you think that means? You know, do you put the fish knife here? Do you put the wine glass here? Like, and she was starting with form, right? So many of us, we started our with a form, even in our work calls, even when you think about like, what is a court proceeding? You'd start with a form? What is a board meeting? Start with a form? What is a like family reunion? You start the form in our head. And like that form is the beginning of the end because it may not be the right form. And so she paused and she was like, I don't know if this counts.

And I said, rather than starting with a form, what is a need in your life that by bringing together a specific group of people, you might be able to address. And she paused and she was like, I don't know if this counts. But the thing that's coming to mind is I'm a worn out mom. And the other day I was at a friend's house and she cut me peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the triangles and she fed me and I burst into tears. And I was like, why did you burst into tears? And she said, because it was the first time in a long time that I was taken care of. And she said, what if I threw a dinner party for my other worn out moms?

And I said, great, give it a name, right? This Abby this gets to the audacity point. What I tell her in the next 30 seconds is coaching her not to be audacious. It's giving her a bridge to help create a temporary world that other people want to be a part of. Okay. Give it a name.

She called it the Warnout moms, whoot nanny. Give it a roll. This involves alcohol. But if you talk about your children, you have to take a shot. That's good. And she started getting like excited. You could like feel like the blood came back into her face. I was like, Oh, oh, that's a need. Yes, that's a need. Yes, that's a need. She ended up, what does it mean to be embodied? They ordered takeout.

And so the audacity, if people had entered and they looked around and she was like, you can't talk about your children. Otherwise, you have to take a teal of shot. She's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't sign up for this and they didn't. She was hosting them. So she sent out an email, subject line, the

Worn Out Mom's, Hoot and Annie. Right? Names have titles. Names have social contracts within them. Right? A meeting. It's like a meeting can cover all matter of sins. Is it a workshop? Is that a Hoot and Annie? Is it a brainstorming? Right? How many time, even in the workplace, you all probably work with exactly who you want to work with. But so many people enter zooms these days and remote work and you back into the purpose. I thought this was a brainstorming call. Why is legal here? Right.

No offense to my lawyers. Tell you what legal doesn't do is brainstorm. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But so often because we don't actually know what the purpose is, we kind of like waste a lot of other people's times like figuring it out in the room.

And she sent this email, she told a story. The audacity again, it's not like, it's not only be brave. It's creating the invisible infrastructure and telling a story, inviting people into consent to want to be part of that temporary world and follow a specific set of pop-up rules, not etiquette, that help us coordinate for the night, say yes, arrive, and it's specific. Is this for everyone? No. It's disputable. What if I don't want to take a ticket to a shot then don't talk about your children, right? And be real, be seated here. But the constraints create energy. It creates specificity, and it allows people to realize, that's really fun.

All six women RSVP, yes, they like went off and did it. And she's shifting the norms of her community. She's shifting what women who also happen to be mothers can talk about in an evening. Yeah, she's temporarily creating guard rails, geographic guard rails. It's like your walks, the founding of this podcast. We can do hard things. We can do hard things like parent, but tonight we're not going to talk about that. Tonight we're going to talk about all of our other identities that are also complicated by being a parent and we're going to have a little fun while doing it. I love that you just mentioned the specific purpose and how that is the place to start. Not the, I'm doing a wedding.

That's, the purpose is not a wedding. That is the format, right? That is the function. Exactly. And that it needs to be specific and disputable, which I love. Can you talk more about that because that is something I'd never heard of. It makes so much sense from a lens of being a decision-making tool throughout the press

through the planning. I love this question. And we started with talking about intention and desire. And at some level, desire is also about choice. It's about choosing. And choosing is line drawing. It's cutting something out in order to grow something else. And gathering is like the sociological intellectual, like

intellectuals, the wrong word, but it's the invisible, like patterning of our everyday life. And so to be specific and disputable, one of the reasons going back to the research that that gathering and ritual and kind of meaningful moments for modern life and the messiness of modern life is kind of not happening, right? Everyone ends up in the living room kind of chit-chatting and then goes home. Yes. It's because we haven't actually paused to ask what is the need here. And so often like in trying to not impose, in trying to not be specific, oh, this is how I grew up Jewish or this is how I grew up Indian or this is how I grew

up Southern Baptist or this is how I grew up as a Yankee fan. And assuming not everyone as a Yankee fan, we end up like not talking about baseball. Safety subject. I figure we'll turn up the heat as this conversation goes on. That is very specific and highly disputable. Okay, for you. And so a specific disputable purpose. Let me give another example. You talk about weddings. I've been working with a lot of couples who are kind of freaking out about their weddings.

And for a lot of different things, right? We have this kind of runaway wedding industry that is like more and more events, more and more expensive and all very much specific on form. And so it's pausing and actually asking first, not why you're getting married, you should probably already have that conversation, but why are you having a wedding? Why not go to city hall? Why not a lope? Like why are you having a wedding? And people are usually like, what do you mean? Like that's what just people do. And it's like, okay, but why are you doing it? And to pause, like the rule number one and conflict resolution is to name the thing.

Why? So for some people, it is to honor the previous generation. This is reciprocity for all of the things that my parents and my grandparents have done and to almost repay those debts. And another couple's, the fundamental purpose is to unite a specific group of communities around two people and their specificity. And those are two very different purposes. And when we don't pause and say, why am I actually doing this, particularly with your partner, and then perhaps with your parents,

or whoever else may be decision-makers, we back into proxy wars, right? The guest list is a proxy war around purpose. Who is this for first? Does the last invitation go to the mother's colleague or to the college buddy? And so a specific disputable purpose is basically saying,

this is what the need is in my or our life. This is what the need is in the community. And then at some level, like testing, going back to Abby's audacity point, to see if you're right about the need. I mean, in a wedding, you have more power because it is fundamentally about you and this union between two people.

But in a workplace or in an organization, like you may misdiagnose the need, but basically a specific and disputable need also allows you to understand who your guests are. Often, explosions happen at gatherings because people didn't sign up for it because it was really vague. Right? You go to a conference,

you're like sitting there, you sort of a panel after panel after panel, I was like, why did I come to this? Right? You could go to a conference, you're like sitting there, sort of a panel after panel after panel, I was like, why did I come to this? Right, you could go to a party and you get cornered and you're sort of like, finding only the people you know and it's like, I would much rather be at home with my partner. And so a specific disputable purpose,

whether it's a worn out mom's, whoot nanny, or whether it's a, what this wedding is actually about allows you to make really helpful decisions and it helps you to generously exclude. We over include because we don't know why we're gathering. Mm. Has anyone ever said to you what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? As if our pain was supposed to become a sort of divine purpose or everything happens for a reason when in reality we may never find reasons for why bad things happen or reasons

for why good things happen even though our culture insists on finding them. Well, we have a podcast for you. On everything happens podcast, Kate Boller, who I love, talks with people about embracing the tough stuff and finding comfort and shared experiences. They're such heartfelt and often hilarious conversations. I love this podcast, I love this woman. She's doing such important work in the world.

And if you're a week and do hard things or I bet you will love Kate Boehler, find everything happens wherever you listen to podcasts. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing So one of the purposes is not just to have more meaning in the gathering and not just to get what we need from the gathering, but it helps us decide who to include and who not to include. Is this what you call exclusionary inclusion or inclusionary exclusion? Which one? Yes, you all are all so beautifully prepared.

The biggest, the most beautiful nerds of them all. Yeah, we are. We are. And makes my little nerd heart like Peter Fatter. So I call it a couple of things. One is generous exclusion. Part of what I've really been trying to do, if I kind of just like scoot all the way back.

It's like, why am I spending my time doing this? Why am I spending time trying to shift how people are gathering? And part of it is because we're lonely, we're in serious crisis, but also because as we're trying to birth a new world, we don't have the rituals to match it, to make people feel safe and connected, do that world. Love it. And some of the biggest mistakes we make, we've been designing this course for the last two years, and we literally have been just watching, what are people's blockages? Like the book, like, helped change the mindset

of like, okay, you can gather meaningfully, but then what's the blockage? Why are you people getting stuck? One of them is a fear of imposing, right? Who might have do it in this way? One of them is a fear of imposing. Who am I to do it in this way? One of them is not realizing they don't know what their need is, creating and pausing the need. And one of them is the fear of exclusion. Yes. It's easier to not do something to get people mad at me. Yes. Yes. And part of gathering is yes is about love, but it's also about power. And like as a host, you have a role to realize, like right now,

you are hosts of this gathering that we can do hard things gathering. The guests may be listening to it at different moments. They may be going on walks, but at some level, you are protecting them. That's right. By choosing which guests you have on. You are protecting me by helping me feel safe by honoring my work, by asking questions that are connecting you to me. You are modeling, yes, love, but also power and protection. And so a good host practices the first thing is generous authority, which is using your power as a host to connect your guests to each other, to protect your guests from each other.

And to temporarily equalize. And this is like, again, I said earlier, it's not rocket science. Simple examples of what do I mean by protection? David Gergen was a advisor to many presidents and was one of the moderators of the Kennedy School Forum, which is at the Kennedy School in Massachusetts that has heads of state visit, like once a week to talk to students. You have 60 minutes. The pet estate or whatever luminary is visiting to talk to like 22 year olds, right?

This is like a very special thing. And maybe they're interviewed for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, and then there's a Q&A. And at the beginning of every Q&A session, David Gurgon says, is now time to turn to our community. And there's a thousand people in the room. A question ends with a question. Oh, that's...

He's protecting the guests and people laugh. And then always, there's like person three, person four, person five, and you can probably imagine who these people tend to be and who they tend to not be. We'll be like, well, before I'm gonna ask something, I want to just tell you about an experience I had in 1972 and David Gurgon will use his authority as a host and say, a question ends with a question mark.

He'll cut them off, a question ends with a question mark. He'll cut them off. A question ends with a question mark. I'm really serious. People start laughing nervously, but it seems mean in the moment he's protecting the purpose. Amen. He's protecting the gathering. It is sacred.

Those 20 minutes are sacred. The head of state or whoever it is rarely gets to actually hear what young people think. Young people get to be treated seriously and sometimes ask questions that will shift to policy potentially. He understands the larger purpose and he's using his generous authority to protect it in the moment. But he also, going back to Abby's earlier point around audacity, he stated the rules up front. Yes. And so whether it's the Kennedy School forum or whether it's a warrant out mom's hoot nanny, gatherings are temporary social

constructs that if you choose to do, and again, it's anyone can do this. You know, excited about this digital course. I'm choosing to launch it on your show because we can do hard things. And what harder thing can we do than gather, and gather differently, and treat our time together as sacred? And actually say, this is what I think we should be spending our time on.

Won't you come in? And in order for us to be different, we're going to put a few temporary rules that I'm going to enforce slightly, but you've already said yes, and you're grateful for my generous hosting. So grateful. I think that I might suffer from this affliction more than the average bear, but assuming that everyone knows the same etiquette is not, I don't like going into a million different spaces and not knowing what's going to happen there and not knowing what's expected of me.

And not, I mean, our most ridiculous example is somebody invited me to a potluck and asked me to bring a dish. And so I brought a fucking dish, just a dish. They meant food on it. No food on it. Did I know that? No, because they assumed some kind of common etiquette knowledge. Correct.

This is such a beautiful example. And I loved your episode on etiquette. You're totally right. etiquette is a specific code. And it's a code that works if we're generous to it. It's a code that works for monolithic cultures. When there is a way, I, you know, Abbey, I know you went to, I don't know if it was Catillian or if it was Manor School, like I went to the same thing, right? I'm, my mother's, I'm Indian immigrant. My dad's like from a small town in Iowa. Like,

it was like the thing in my high school and Virginia people were doing it. So like every day I would wear the same vest and skirt because I own like one good outfit. I mean good, right? I'm putting good in clothes. No one wants to see like the white channel neck and the kids. Yeah.

And I would like go and they wheel out the little trolley. Yes. And they're teaching a specific way to put the fork. Oh my God. We're not dancing the Harlem Shake. We're learning the steps to the Fox Trock. That's right. And again, there are millions of people who have gone to Contillion around this country

as I understand it, who actually, if you're trying to enter a certain world, it actually helps people who didn't grow up in certain worlds to know that when someone says, bring a dish, you put food in it. But we don't live in that world. We are a browning country. We are going to soon be majority, minority. My husband, Anand Girdhar Das, is a journalist. And he says, we are falling on our face right now as a country because we are jumping so high.

Because we are trying to be the first thing that has ever existed in the history of the world, which is a multiracial democracy. And part of explaining temporarily, hey, I'm having this party, this means this is it's actually deeply inclusive. Yes. That is so beautiful. And the last thing I'll say is a lot of the people

I interviewed in the art of gathering, and a lot of people starting to take this course, and some of the best gatherers in the world are introverts. They're self-described as often on the outside of things, as loners, like this is their language, not mine, and I thought this was so interesting, and I finally asked one of the people I was interviewing, I said, why do you think this is?

And she said, I don't know about other people, but most gatherings I go to, I'm overwhelmed. I don't know how to be. I don't know what the codes are. I feel unheld. And so I create the gatherings I wish existed in the world. And they're not like relying on the fancy house, like their starlight personality.

It's thinking ahead of time. What is this thing? If I hosted a picnic, what is the specific item everyone could bring? Bring your favorite T mug. I'll bring a thermos. Bring two mugs, your favorite T mug for yourself, and one you want to share with the group. And tell the story as to why.

It costs $3 to have tea bags and a thermos, but so often we don't know how to have a specific disputable purpose, but meaning lies in specificity. And in a democracy, gathering in this way, learning how to actually think what is my need, who needs to be there, and how do I explain this to them in a way they want to be part of it, they're willing to give up some amount of their freedom. Oh, we're that silly hat for Glenin' because I realize she explained it to me in the invitation. This is how she used to party when she was nine years old.

And I love her and she's trying to bring more silliness in her life versus stepping in and being like, here, where where the silly hat Gathering in this way is good for our democracy But it's just one little pebble at a time Meaning lies and specificity meaning lies and specificity so you are not being specific because you're a pre-Madonna. You are not being specific because the thing that you're hosting, you want it to be just so. You're being specific in order to make sure that this gathering has meaning and the meaning matches the need. And so this reminds me so much we just did a couple episodes on

dating, the stretch, but dating and beige flags. And the way that they were talking about beige flags, it's like I want to be so approachable and accessible to everyone that I am going to exude such a generic mass appeal that I actually appeal to know one. Yeah. Because you actually don't want your gathering to work for everyone on God's green earth. You want your gathering to specifically work specifically for this group of people that you are gathering. If everyone is invited, nobody is invited.

If I am willing to date everyone, I am willing to not date anyone, specifically. Closing the door, metaphorically and literally creates the room. And it's not forever, right? So, community is different than gathering. People start getting upset, like, you're gonna leave them out of this one time.

It's like, it depends on the purpose. And in workplaces, people are invited to avoid too many meetings. Okay. It's like, give them their time back. Yeah. So often, we don't know what we want to attend because there's not specificity to it.

And you can be specific and be exclusive, right? You can definitely be specific and be a prima donna like specificity is a tool. If someone suggests a dress code that costs $1,000 to me, that's a very specific form of connection. But specificity, I'll give another example. A friend's boss received like a magnum of champagne for it as a from a client and he doesn't drink. And champagne for it as a from a client and he doesn't drink. And the magnum was from 2003 and the friend of mine said, like, what do I do with this? Like, this is a huge amount of alcohol.

Like, what do I do with this? Like, do I invite four people? Do I invite 12 people? Like, is everyone taking a sip? Like, it actually size matters. Right? Like, depending on the gathering, like, it's literally like, everyone has a thimble

and it's hilarious and you invite 70 people. What is, it's just this funny design constraint. And I said invite 12 people and the barrier to end the cost of entry is you have to bring a story from your life in the year 2003. Specificity, right? It just, it's like that moment of connection. There's so many different things one can talk about, right?

All of us have so many different identities. One of the things I loved, Lennon, when you had like a deep dive on Amanda, he said, there are so many ways to tell the story. There's so many lens I could give you to this beautiful person, right? That is true of all of us. And when we enter a room, I'm debating.

Am I telling you my biracial side? Am I emphasizing my conflict side? Am I saying my divorce side? Am I emphasizing my softball player side? My marching band side? Do I not want to tell you about my marching band side? No matter what? I think the party's people.

Whoops. Whoopsie, Jesus. Please marching band listeners raise your hand. Oh, it's so good. It's so beautiful because, you know, in the beginning, What's he daisies? Please marching band listeners raise your hand. It's so beautiful because in the beginning you said this is about world creation and it is. It's also about identity creation as someone who's slightly obsessed with who the hell am I.

We do so much of it alone and that's why we're so confused. I mean, I'm on a freaking Buzzfeed trying to figure out if I'm a Harry Potter character. Like, we're not really what you're saying is, these gatherings are partly, I brought you here because I see you as brave. Like, if someone did that, I would be like, oh, I'm brave.

Yes, yes. That's how I see it. Right, we see each other through each other. Yes. And not every gathering needs to be, like through conversation or through dialogue, it can also be a shared experience. I don't know if you heard,

but there's a lot of conflicts, intention within families right now. Oh, jeez. Oh, here we go. You like to send us a little bit. Just gonna tell you, don't gonna tell you. Let's get into it. So there's a woman I know, again, specificity.

So a woman I know, every example I share, I have permission to share. She's actually on one of our office hours, the digital course office hours, and she was trying to figure out, like, real person, we're testing like, how does she actually shift from like, I wanna gather this way,

but I have a family reunion, ah, like, what do I do? And it was her father's 70th birthday. There's always drama when the collective family comes together. She didn't want the focus to be a big long meal because the more they talk, the more everything goes downhill. Sometimes baby ritual example, like, what is the structure? What's the coordinating mechanism to shift how we gather? And so all she did, she realized that the math and poetry of her gathering was she invited her entire family two weeks ahead of time. She's hosting them before they arrive

to send three photos of pops. It could be a photo with them, just three photos. And then the moment of focus, the peak of the gathering was in all of the family members gathered in the living room. She on her phone projected at TV and then she invited them. When you see your photo, tell us about why this reminds you of pops. And so there was like an old photo from 50 years ago of he and his wife when they were 22 outside of a just sold sign in the house that they're all sitting in. And then there's an image of a black pickup truck. And the four-year-old granddaughter searched jumping up and down, it's an accessible, like coordinating mechanism.

Saying, every time I see a black truck, I start getting so excited because I think it might be a puppy. She found the right coordinating mechanism that was accessible. Everyone had a few photos that was ahead of time. That wasn't too high a lift that gave people a meaningful way to engage that was equalizing. Equalizing. Equalizing. Equalizing. Yes.

That protected them from each other. Oh, my gosh. And let them spend time together in a way that wasn't going to be really painful. Yes. And in that specific family, like they still wanted to spend time together, but she realized as this aspiring artful gatherer that she needed to slightly tilt how they spend their time and bring their family along in almost like incognito form. Yes. The equalizing too, I tend to feel so comfortable when there is a structure for time because I feel that lack of equalization if we just invite people into spaces, then there's always a couple

people who have the kind of personality that dominates conversation that will talk the whole time that every space is filled with their voice. And so if we don't arrange different structures, there's only three people ever talking. We don't get to know 80% of the people. So it makes me feel so comfortable when there's a structure that's like, now that person has the floor. Now this, now the four-year-old's voice gets to come out because it's her moment.

That's probably the most precious moment of the thing and it never would have happened. Yes. If there was an structure. Exactly. And structures can be like found in the moment. So I'll give you a different example, retirement party. My father is a government civil servant,

worked for the government for like 30 years. This is a couple of years ago, he was retiring. I mentioned earlier he's an Iowa, so code for that was like he didn't want to make a fuss. Yeah. And he was like slip out, you know? And one of his colleagues realized for that was like he didn't want to make a fuss. Yeah. And he was like, slip out, you know? And one of his colleagues realized,

Ron's retiring, sent an email around, and very well-intentioned, like beautiful instinct, right? Let's mark this. My stepmother asks, oh, there's a lunch and he's kind of like, I guess, like, sort it. Can I come? Yeah, yeah, sure. So she goes, she'd read my book.

You know, you're like, make sure your parents read your book. And she sat down and she was so excited. And there was like a 17 person table at like a Greek restaurant across the street, 10 minutes go by, 15 minutes go by. And then all of a sudden, she's like, starts getting really nervous. And she's like, is really nervous and she's like Is lunch just gonna be lunch? Oh Is like his retirement party after 30 years like

Whoa, what is happening here as she describes it to me. She like kind of blacked out like done her glass stood up and was like Hi, you know voice shaking. I'm I'm Renee, I'm Ron's wife, and I'm so happy to be here today. And you know, I know like, home Ron, but I don't really know work, Ron. Oh, this is good. Would you tell me something about him? Silence. We can do hard things.

And then out of the corner, there's a small little ding and it's the intern. Oh, God. And he stands up and he says, I've been working here for a few months and I learned very quickly, even though Ron is on the other side of the floor. If I have any question, I walk across the floor, because no matter what he's doing, he will put his papers down, stand up, and answer my question. Another one, things. You know, Ron is always the person at the end,

he's created pesticide programs, at the end of the program, right? When we're all just done, there's like, ship this thing out. He rallies the troops and he's like, we get to name the acronym. And his personal coup was when he named one after his daughter, the Pesaside Reduction Information Act,

the plia. Oh my God. You know, and all of a sudden, like popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, people laughing, people talking, people sharing specific stories. She sits down. She models like radical, audacious, guessing. Yes.

And vulnerability and vulnerability. And vulnerability. That's what it is. You have to be so vulnerable to be like, I have a need that we get beyond surface level and that I have a place where I can share my squishy middle. And so it's vulnerable for me to host this thing where I'm asking for somebody else's squishy middle. But that's what it takes for people

to be able to show up that way. But for a purpose. Yes. They're not saying share your childhood traumas. And there are workplaces that are currently doing that, and it's inappropriate. Yeah. It was vulnerability for a purpose.

Right, there was a legitimate purpose there, which is, let's honor this guy. He, she found the right coordinating mechanism. In this course, I call it the math and the poetry. She found the poetry and the math. What could they all do? What's equalizing? They then choose their level of vulnerability. But the last thing going back to your first point, Amanda, is like, it changes things afterwards. When I say transformative, first of all, the story in my father's head, for the next however long he lives, God bless him,

is my work mattered. People saw my moments of kindness, but it also changed the guests. Whoa, maybe I should stand up when the intern comes. Yeah. Oh, that's the story. Didn't realize people noticed moments of joy. Whoa, right?

And so she got there in the moment and she took a big rest and sometimes it can fall flat. Right? But the amount of times we're at a funeral or like memorial or I was recently at a launch for a film at a big conference, hundreds of people there, people milling around. And like, you can kind of feel that pregnant moment and we're like, okay, someone's gonna say something, like, are we doing, what are we doing, what are we doing? And no one said anything.

And I went to the person who the ostensible host is. And I was like, that person was like, oh, no James, here's your moment. Here's your moment. And he said to me, I have my notes in my pocket, but I don't want to kill the vibe. Oh. And I'm like, I don't know if this is an American thing.

I don't know. Are like misplaced fear of imposing. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're birthing the moment. Yeah. Right? Like a moment of focus. One minute, two minutes, three minutes. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, a global pandemic with teams in 32 different spots. And the way that you, Clarissa, I'm making this up. Shipped the tapes, right, from the driveway

and wiped them up with Clarice wipes and sent them to Eric. And then you took it on a donkey, clearly I'm like literally making this up now. Damn! Nailin' it. Right, it's like all of this moment's like moments of specificity and marking and allowing us to own the good. I mean, Abby, you do the...

This is your captain. It's almost like let us steer the ship as a captain. These are people that need to be loved, they need to be touched, but they need to be oriented. What are we doing here? And why are you all here? And why does that matter? Can't believe not knowing why they matter to something. And it feels like such an opportunity. Listen,atters introverts weirdos like this is our moment

Right like and this is our moment to be like no what would we want what when we say when I say I don't like parties I don't like being with other people. I don't mean that. That's not true I mean, I don't like the form and the way that it always is. I actually love being with other people. I just need intention and structure. It's what's the truest, most beautiful, and gathering you can imagine. It's like you actually do get to do that. And the beauty of that is then not only do you get to have it for yourself, but you are creating a culture that allows for other

people to say, well, actually, this one's my drierest most beautiful gathering of my imagination. It gives people permission. This is literally the tilt between, I don't like parties. I don't think anyone likes those parties, but it starts with language. It starts with specificity. It's like, were I to mark whatever it is and my life, what would this be?

It may be three people, right? But it's a muscle. Practicing, gathering, it's a muscle. It's an everyday practice. And if this feels overwhelming, then you can start as a guest. My really good hosts are really good guests. This sounds fun too.

It doesn't feel like a good one. It is fun. It sounds like a party I want to go to rather than like one that I don't. That even to 7 trillion times. And I also just want to put you on the spot and ask you for one more thing. And then I want to talk about the giveaway and how people are going to get this. So we've created this space. But the problem with get together is with people is people.

Okay. But the problem with get together is with people, is people. Okay, so what I would love for you to do is to say, Glenn and I will come back and I will talk to you about how to when we gather, deal with in loving generous but protective ways with people who are difficult. Period. It would be my honor. Okay. We could cause we can do other people. Are the Trojan horses of the conversations we have been avoiding to have. Oh, fuck. Because they're these forcing mechanisms

that actually ask, who do I want there and who do I not? And the interesting part isn't who do I want there. The interesting line is the ambivalence lines. It's also not like who doesn't need to be there, who cares? It's that like ragged edge where there's so much juice and where there's an invitation to either like have a facing conversation.

The purpose of this is this and like next time when there's something else, there's this and you don't mean that thing to me. I had a friend who had a 40th birthday party recently. He wanted to keep it relatively small. He's part of a theater community. I read about this in my newsletter recently and I put like the theater communities and nastier

just because as I understand not being part of them, like these people were all deep. Like you've been part of many shows. We have like six friends, like they have like 200, you know, like real friends. So he was having his 40th birthday party and he wanted to keep it relatively small, which this is why I'm like joking,

relatively small for him was 40. Oh, but that was a tight line in an embedded community. And he still he wanted symbolically, he knew himself. He knew what he is like at 40 versus 200. So he kept that was the line. And the line he chose for the purpose to protect it was, if I am going only going to invite the people who I've had a meaningful one-on-one conversation or experience with in the last year.

Because that to him was proxy for like desire, active desire. So he did that. A bunch of people were invited, some were mad and didn't say anything, some were mad and said something. And the transformative conversations were the ones who said,

I thought we were close, why didn't you invite me? He explains his line. And then some people were like, well, that's dumb. And some people were like, oh my gosh, it's been a year. I'm so sorry. I totally get that. I'm actually kind of embarrassed.

I love you so much. Can I take you out for dinner? It shifts the relationship. And so if you want to, we can coach you through a gathering in all the steps. I will ride along. Come back and talk about it But this is why it's so interesting because the planning yeah for the host

Can be transformative. I see it and it's why it's one of the reasons that I trust you in this work It's because I don't want anybody talking about gathering unless they're also a conflict resolution because I don't want anybody talking about gathering unless they're also a conflict resolution. That's true. I'm sorry. That's gala. It's like, who are we? That's what it takes. Who do you want to be now?

Yeah. Gathering is political. It's small people political. It's saying, I think we should spend time in this way. I think these people should be here. I think for this moment, these people should not be here. I think this is how we should coordinate. People may revolt. People may have a better idea,

and they might, but it is actually choosing to engage with each other and putting something out there. I love it. Sister, tell people how they can get this free giveaway, which is our first one. I'm so excited for this. I knew this was for free giveaway. You get a course.

And you get a course. And you get a course. Come here, of course. Part of the reason I'm giving away these courses on your show, I've never done this before, is because what is harder You get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course.

And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course.

And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course.

And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. And you get a new course. then what the people who most want to try to do things differently. Yeah, amen. Amen. Okay, this is the art of gathering digital course. This is the one that Brie has been talking about. She's spent two years researching and building it normally goes for $397. It's a six week self-guided course. She is generously gifting us with 50 that is 50 registration. So the first 50 pod squatters who go to preaparker.com slash hard things that's PR I

Y AP AR KER.com slash hard things and sign up on the landing page. You will get it the course for free and it is just thrilling and exciting. So come do this course. And even if you aren't the first 50, we have goodies for you there. Oh, that's so good. You're going to be on the first 50 because we know you all are. You all rolled deep.

We just say a little deep. We're like a theater. The first 50 million. Exactly. Triarkarka, we love you. Thank you so much. Modeling artful gathering that protects people that is authentic, that is based on the questions you actually have, that honors your guests, that creates safety, that creates vulnerability, that has differentiation between different episodes

of when are you going deep on you, when are you mirrors and when are you windows, you're modeling this. And it's like, it's a distributed gathering over time that's a new form. And so you're modeling this in this fascinating new way, but you're already walking the talk with your community. And Glennon, we'll see how you do this

with your other community at some point. Yeah, coming to a theater near you. In body community, it's a new fun to you. Our two friends are like, whoo, that's what we want. Our two friends are like, we're gonna have to come back over here. Looks like another pizza night at Doyle. But the toppings are specific. Exposive.

And then you have to bring stories. Inspecificity, there is meaning. That's right. Exactly. That's why there are pod squatters. We will gather here next time. Bye. Bye. Oh, I love that. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with cadence 13 Studios.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. I walked through a fire, I came out, the other side. I walked through fire, I came out the other side I chased, desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me, and because I'm mine, I want the line. Venturers in heartbreak some map A final destination in the cloud They stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time

But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So man, a final destination With land, we stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain

That our lives bring. We can do a heartache. This world finished her rose and heart breaks on mine. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stop that skiing direction. The path of asking directions Some places may have never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things

Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Hardly