We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 268. Elizabeth Gilbert On Her Most Important Daily Practice

Episode Date: January 2, 2024

Liz Gilbert returns to share with us her transformative practice of planning her days and her life by writing two-way letters to love every morning.  Why Liz shaved her head! The unwavering presence that’s accompanied Liz her whole life; The concept of "two-way prayer" – and how it can help us find the kindest, wisest version of ourselves. How to find solace and guidance in creating a higher power of your own understanding; and  Abby shares her own letter on self-love and acceptance, a declaration that she will not abandon herself. About Elizabeth:  Elizabeth Gilbert is author of the international bestseller, EAT PRAY LOVE, which has been translated into over thirty languages, and sold over 12 million copies worldwide. The book became so popular that Time Magazine named Elizabeth as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. In 2010, Elizabeth published a follow-up to EAT PRAY LOVE called COMMITTED—an instant a #1 New York Times Bestseller, as well as BIG MAGIC: CREATIVE LIVING BEYOND FEAR. She is author of two novels: THE SIGNATURE OF ALL THINGS, and CITY OF GIRLS. And she is the creator of the Onward Book Club, which takes place on her Instagram via a live chat, as a way of spotlighting, studying, and celebrating the work of Black women authors.  You can also find her on Substack and subscribe to her newsletter: “Letters From Love with Elizabeth Gilbert”. TW: @GilbertLiz IG: @elizabeth_gilbert_writer To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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to your favorite episode or to the show. We love you. We appreciate you so much, Paz. We really you. We appreciate you so much. Thanks for coming. Thank you, Pod Squad. Unpods. Unpods us. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. During this episode, we're talking to our bestie.

Our bestie is back, and her name is Elizabeth Gilbert. Whoa, whoa, whoa! It's Lizzy Day! Happy Lizzy Day to everyone. Happy Lizeration! Yes, that's great, Zissy. And happy Lizzy Day to all who celebrate Elizabeth Gilbert is author of the International Best Seller Eat, Pray Love, which has been translated into over 30 languages and sold over 12

million copies. The book became so popular that Time Magazine named Elizabeth Gilbert as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. I feel like to me, she's one of definitely one of the most five influential people in the world. I feel like to me she's one of definitely one of the most five influential people in my world. In 2010, Elizabeth published a follow-up to E.Pray love called committed as well as big magic creative living beyond fear. She is the author of three novels Stern Men, The Signature of All Things, and City of Girls. Elizabeth is the creator of the onward book Club, spotlating, studying and celebrating the work of black women authors.

You can also find her on Substack and subscribe to her newsletter, Letters From Love, which we'll be talking about today with Elizabeth Gilbert. Returning after a year and a half, if you haven't listened to our original episodes, go back and listen to episodes 94 and 95 is the one and only Elizabeth Gellar. Yes, where are you?

What is happening? I I'm in the devil's waiting room is what it feels like chair. I am in a I'm in it. I'm renting an Airbnb in a building in San Jose, Costa Rica, and they have a party room that's completely lined with red carpet that I thought I would rent for me and us for this party we're about to have. And I'm just gonna show you what we're dealing with here.

Okay. It's all for us, just this party room. You guys, it's a red guy. It's like a red velvet. It's like you're in a womb. You're in a womb room. Or I'm in an anti-chamber of my heart that also happens to have wall to wall carpeting

like my actual heart. Yes. How are you? How are you? How are you? I love you. Oh my god. I love you. You're beautiful.

Hi, Abby. I really wish you guys could just feel this. It's like I have my own puppy. It's like I have my own puppy. So Pods, what we're talking about right now is she just comes on. Liz comes on. We haven't seen her for a couple of months. You came and stayed at our house for a while,

and we got to experience the letters from love, IRL. But we haven't seen you since then, and now you're in a red velvet room and your head is shaved. And you look like a love monk right now. A love monk is right. You look like a love monk, okay? That's right.

I have never felt more like myself, probably than in this exact moment. It's like, of course, of course, this is the haircut I should have always had. I've been dreaming about doing this for years. I actually really almost did it when Reya died. It felt like I had to. And I remember taking her clippers because she was a hairdresser and standing in front of the mirror.

And I was like, I don't even know how to do this, but I'm just gonna do this because it feels like it must be done. And then I heard her voice as clear as they say, oh babe, no, just go get a good short haircut and face somebody some money. Don't do that. You're going to regret that. Don't do that.

But I did it finally. And I love it. Oh, it's so beautiful. It's beautiful. Do you just pat yourself? Do you pat yourself all the day? Yes. Yeah. I shaved my head in college and that's what I just was like always.

I can't get my hands off it. And it's so. That's what you say you have your own puppy. It's like you have me, your own comfort source. Exactly. I'm my own teddy bear. It's just incredible. I love it.

I wish I had done it a long, long time ago. And I'm traveling right now and just jumping in and out of oceans and jumping in and out of rivers and jumping in and out of swimming pools and taking a shower and running a bar of soap on my head and jumping out two seconds later done. Perfect. Ready for everything. It's so good.

When you texted me the little video of you doing it, you kept saying, I did it myself. I did it myself. I did it myself. I did this myself. Can you talk about the epiphany of that? Yes, because my hair has been a problem. Many of many people listening to this probably have a similar experience that their hair was identified at a very early age by some parental or authoritative figure as problematic and and then enormous resources have been poured into deproblemizing this hair and a lot of suffering and a lot of pain and a lot of longing and a lot of like what do I have to do to make it look completely different from what it actually is.

And the hair that you have all seen me with over the years is not what my hair looks like. My hair is dark and frizzy and curly. And it is not shiny and blonde and platinum and straight. And it costs me a fortune to make it look like what it isn't. And it costs me an enormous amount of time. And I love the people who I go see to do all this stuff. But the idea that I could not have to have someone tend to my hair as if I was like 18th century nobility. And you have to have like servants who put your clothes on for you because you can't, who put your clothes on for you

because you can't, who dress your hair because you can't, right? Like I don't need to have like staff anymore to tend to my fucking head. It's so good. It's so big from a world perspective. You're like, I'm ready. I'm already ready. It's like cosmic when you think about like,

no, in this moment, I'm ready. Let's go. I woke up like this. I literally woke up like this. It's incredible. And then I was in a meeting recently and I looked around the room. And this is a New York city in like the West Village.

So one of the most liberal enclaves on Earth, and there are 40 people in the room, and all the men had short hair, and every single one of the women had expensive looking longer hair. And I was calculating the amount of money. And I was like, why are we still doing this? I don't understand why this is still, in everything that we've put aside and rejected it, why am I still, why am I still buying into this story that if you're a woman, your hair has to be long, and a man, you're gonna have to be sure.

It's so stupid. It doesn't even make sense. It's so arbitrary. And I was like, these dudes just got to like get out of the shower, get dressed, and come here. And I feel like that's male privilege that I'm now claiming for myself. Yes, yes. Amen. Do you feel scared at all? Like does it feel scary because I always think, do you feel scared? No, I feel I feel unscared when I have a bunch of shit hair over my face. Like, it feels like a shield of some sort, or like a blankie, like a security blankie,

or it just feels so brave to just be like, hello, this is my face with no frame. My whole entire face. Yeah, it's, I've heard a lot of women say that since they saw this, that they're like, it's so brave you're letting yourself be seen and and I think, oh right, there's not this thicket that I can hide behind and peek out from, but I never really had a thicket which was part of the problem. I really wanted a thicket that I really had. I think it. I think it.

I had more like a few strands of like Q tips that I was trying to hide behind, but like, yeah, I don't have the, I don't want to be seen wound. Yeah. I have a lot of wounds, but I don't have that one. Abby, I think you and I have this in common. I'm not at all afraid to be seen. So that's not frightening for me. But what was frightening for me was this crazy idea I had for years, whereas I really want to do this. But I'm a public figure who's seen as a certain way, who gets paid to go speak at corporate events and who, you know, has this, like, image that people are accustomed to.

So I really must look like my author photos. And just a few weeks ago, I was like, that is so stupid. If I can't do this, who can do this? I'm self-employed, I'm an artist. Somebody has to do this. And then I read this article in the New York Times about all these young Chinese women who are shaving their heads.

Did you read about this? It's like at this mass movement that's happening in China right now of all these young women in their 20s, including some people who were beauty influencers on Chinese social media who are like, we're done with all of your standards of what we're supposed to look like and they're all buzz cutting their hair.

And of course they look amazing. So I think I was afraid I was gonna look like a withered old man, but I don't think I would, I think it looks really beautiful. And I like it better than I think I've ever looked and I feel more like myself than I think I've ever looked and I feel more like myself than I think I've ever felt. I just have some follow-up questions. Do you have any like calics or weird things that happen? I do. I do. That you didn't really totally aware of? Yes, I do. And so I've had to learn how

to shave in circles because it grows in circles. But basically it's pretty straightforward. And it takes five minutes. I do it like every five or six days and it feels like so cleansing to do it. And you know religious renunciants have always done this. Partially it's just because like you don't want to be dealing with this like your whole life is about something else. You know, your whole life is about your devotion to something else. And that feels accurate, too, to me. Have you been more misgendered since shaving your head? I haven't walked around the United States with it yet, but I've been walking around

Central America with it, which is in many ways more conservative. And I have, and I'm with a friend of mine who keeps, we keep, she's like, I don't see you getting any fewer or more looks than ever. And I don't feel that either, which makes me think maybe it just looks right to other people too. Like maybe it's not just me who feels like

this is what I'm supposed to look like. Maybe it's people who've never seen me who are like, yeah, that's what that person looks like. That's so cool. It's so cool. It's so cool. Like I asked you on text never seen me who are like, yeah, that's what that person looks like. That's so cool. It's so cool. It's so cool. Like I asked you on text though, the problem is like, what will you do

with all of the hours that you're not just thinking about your hair being annoying or when you're gonna get hairdresser and also what will you do with all your money and like your drawers with all the magic potions? It'll just be hard. And by not all this stuff, you don't need all the magic potions, it'll just be hard. I'm not all this stuff. You don't need all the shit anymore.

I don't have to travel with anything Amanda, except the clippers. I would be embarrassed for the world to know how much of hours I think about my hair when they had that thing that was like, what's your Roman empire? That's it about my hair. When they had that thing that was like, what's your Roman Empire? That's, it's my head. It's my hair. My own hair. The exterior of my head. Yeah, the exterior. No, and it's not hair in general. It's not like as a study. It's not your hair. It's just my own hair. All day, every day. Well, you have magnificent hair. I don't know. Well, thank you. But, and I'm sure you just woke up with it.

It's just never. And over time. It's just like that. Over time, it's only cost me $17 million. Imagine the amount of money in time. No. But I also really love the people who have done my hair over the years. And I'm delighted that they have a living.

And Reya was a hairdresser. I know. That way. So, it's not like I want to take away the living of people who have done my hair over the years. And I'm delighted that they have a living. And Raya was a hairdresser. I know. That way. So it's not like I want to take away the livings of people who do this. But I think this might be it. Like, this is, this feels really good. Is there a connection between? Because you said, I mean, really, when you came to stay with us,

when was it? What month? It was a month and a half ago. It was time before now, but relatively recently. Every time we spend time together, you're teaching me something just by what you're doing. You're not like trying to teach me, because then I wouldn't listen.

But you're just being yourself. And I feel like for me, you're one of my dearest friends in the world. And someone that every time you're doing something, I'm like, that feels like something I'll probably be doing in five years. So I'm going to really enjoy my hair now. You would look awesome with a shaved head. You would look awesome and you would feel like a God. So what started this practice?

I'm going to call it a spiritual practice and then you tell us what you call it, where you began waking up in the morning and saying to God, your deepest self, saying, love, what would you have me know today? You call them two way prayers because I remember when you were trying to get me to understand that I could have a higher power early in 12 steps, I would just say, Liz, I can't fucking do this. I cannot surrender to this higher power that is this he and you would say you can create a higher power of your own understanding. And you can surrender to that. Is that the being you're talking to when you say love, what would you have me

know today? And can you just take the pod squad through this spiritual practice that really is changing people's lives? Nothing would bring me more joy. And I am so happy to be here. And I don't even think I said hello to you guys, because I just jumped into talking about shaved heads and carpeted ceilings. But hi, I love you all. Hi, I'm so happy.

Hi, Ellen. Hi, Glenn. Hi, Ellen. It's so good to see you. And thank you for letting me talk about the thing that is my most favorite thing to talk about and to think about and to be with. So I'll start at the beginning,

which my first encounter with this force. When I was going through my first divorce and my collapse from an absolutely love addicted infatuation with the guy I left my marriage for where we flew very close to the sun and then crashed and almost died because it was that kind of love story. And I was just wrecked and shamed and full of despair. So much shame. It was mostly shame, just so much shame and so lost. And I wrote about this and he pray love. So this was like 25 years ago. And I woke up in the middle of the night

when I look back at it now, I just think, man, I didn't have any tools for what I was going through. I was just going through it like raw, but it was the going through it, rawly that started to collect me in my tools. But I don't know, I can't remember the moment of inspiration that caused me to take a notebook in the middle of the night

and to just write a letter to myself, saying the things that I have always wanted to hear somebody say to me. They were really simple and essentially what love said to me was, I'm right here. There is this presence that said to me, I am right here. I have always been right here. There is nothing that you can do to lose me. There is nothing you can fail at. So much that it will cost you my love. You can't earn my love, you can't lose my love. It is in need. It's yours. I am never going to leave you. I was here at the moment of your birth. I'll be here at the moment of your death. Whatever you need to do, I'll be with you because

I remember that night I was struggling with whether I needed to go back on antidepressants and this voice was like, if you need to go back on antidepressants, I will be there with you loving you through that. If you don't need to, I will be there loving you through that. There's nothing you need to change about yourself to be more or less loved than you are. And I've got you, and I'll stay up with you all night. If you need to stay up all night crying, I'll be with you. I'm right here with you. If you fall asleep, I'll be here when you wake up. And nobody had ever said anything like that to me. Although I'd been trying to train and trick people into saying things like that to me, with medium levels of, and if they did say it to me,

you know, it didn't end up working anyway, because it wasn't supposed to be coming from them. It wasn't supposed to be coming from them. No matter how many games I played, didn't like extract that from them. So that, I started doing it as a practice, and I didn't even know really what to call that thing that was speaking to me.

I didn't really feel very comfortable with the term God. Unlike you guys, I was not raised in a high demand religion, so I hadn't had something forced on me about spirituality that was so aggressive and domineering that it made me want to recoil from it, but I hadn't really had anything. So, in a way that's kind of easier, because I was sort of building my own ideas. But over the years, I just kept reaching out to it, and then I just started calling it love. And it's what it is.

It's this unconditional lovey voice. And I have a tattoo on my chest that says, I'm right here, because that is the thing it says most more than anything. There are a few things that it constantly says, one is I'm right here, the other is you can't lose me, the other is you haven't done anything wrong because I'm such a guilt addict and I'm such a shame addict. So it's constantly telling me like, you really haven't done anything wrong. And you don't need to do anything. And it's okay if you can't do anything, which is very different from what I was raised as. It's like you must constantly be perfect

and you must never make a mistake. And mistakes are totally unforgivable. And any lapse is an emergency and a catastrophe. So like fix it, shape it up, zip it up, you know, like, and loves like, I don't need your zipped up self, I don't need you, I don't need anything from you. It's another thing it often says, I don't need anything from you. And I remember when I was first beginning this relationship with this thing, I would sometimes say to it, I don't believe in you.

And it would say, I have no problem with that. I have no requirement for you to believe in me. I, you know, and I would say that you're not even real. And then it would say, well, then who are you talking to? Yes, we are. I have a student, too. Who are you talking to right now? Who are you up in the middle of the night

having a conversation with? Like, I don't know, you're not even real. So I didn't do it daily. I used to use it. It was real foxhole stuff. It was like when I was in real crisis, I would reach for it. And it got me through Reyes Dath and Reyes relaps into drug addiction. It got me through two divorces. It got me through multiple shaman episodes, multiple breakups and failures and my own addiction, it's really been true to its word that it's never not going to be there. And it's never not, it's never not been wise. There's never been anything that has ever told me that wasn't wise.

Like, if I go back and open up journals from 10, 20 years ago, it's right on point, you know? And lots of times, I'll go to, I would go to it when I was frantic about something that was happening and I really wanted to know how that thing was gonna end and what was going to happen. And this is where love is sort of a wise ask to me, which I enjoy because of course it would have to be

if it was mine. And so I would say things like, I need to know how this is going to end. I need to know when this divorce is gonna be over. I need to know how this is going to end. I need to know when this divorce is going to be over. I need to know what's going to happen. And love would say to me, that's not my department. I don't have actually any information about the future. I don't.

It's not my department. And I would say, well, then what are you? And it would say, I am love. And I'm here. what I can assure you is that I'm here to love you through whatever happens. So that's what I've got for you. And I would say, that's not good enough. And it would say, I understand why you would feel

like that wasn't good enough. And yet I am here. And I remember saying to it one time, well, what is your role then? If you can't fix anything, you can't change anything, you can't predict anything, you can't undo horrible things that are happening. And it says, my role is to be present and comfort with you in your darkest hours. And that is what I'm here for.

And that is what I will always be here for. So when I entered 12-step recovery, I discovered that there's this thing that people in 12-step recovery have been doing forever that's called two-way prayer, that discovered that there's this thing that people in 12-step recovery have been doing forever that's called two-way prayer, that Bill W who was the original founder of AA said that it was the single most important practice that a recovering addict could have, that it was more important than having a sponsor, it was more important than doing the steps, it was more important than going to meetings, and it didn't make it into the big book. What the hell?

Because as much as people have issue with the big book as being too religious, they were actually trying to make it less religious. Because they didn't want to scare away agnostic and atheist. So this is a mystical practice. So they didn't want to put this mystical practice in here that says like you can actually directly speak to your higher power and it will speak back to you.

They're like people aren't going to be able to handle this. So they just left that out. But Bill W did it every single day of his life. And the original 100 who never relapsed of the first 100 AAs did it. It was like their foremost practice was this two way direct communion. And Bill W said it's so important to do this because it's more important than reading spiritual texts, because any spiritual text that you read is somebody else's downloadable divine experience, not yours. Yes, somebody else is right. It's somebody else's two way prayer that then became the Psalms or then became this divine

revelation, but you get to have your own. And in fact, you have to have your own. And in fact, you have to have your own. And as I said to you, Glenn, and when you were struggling with doing this, nobody, I always say this to my sponsors in 12-step, nobody, nobody will or should surrender to a God who was forced upon them. Because that is coercion and that is not spiritual surrender. But I run my life now on these letters. Like I can't, that is no exaggeration. Every single morning when I wake up, I say to this force, which I sometimes call God and sometimes call love and sometimes call source, what do you want me to know today? What would you have me know today? And for the first 20 years, all it told me again and again was, I love you so much.

Because I needed 20 years of that. I was so wounded from lack of love. And it didn't matter how many people loved me. Millions of people could love me. It wasn't digesting. I didn't have the enzymes to be able to receive love. So this thing had to just be like, you're perfect, you're my child. I love you. You don't have to do anything. I'm right here. But now as I've gotten more and more well through my recovery, now I find that it gives me instruction because it can because I'm willing and open to that. And also, I believe that I'm loved. So it's convinced me that I'm loved. So that was the main job that it had was to keep me

that I'm loved. And then once it convinced me of that, it's like, okay, here's like today, it was like, bring the very best of what you have to this podcast today and just share your own story and don't try to convince anybody or impress anybody. Just tell the truth about what's happened to you and I'll be with you. So it's and then it'll say, like, call this person.

Check in. I want you to do this today. This is the work I want you to be doing. Here's the person I don't want you to be calling today. So it's now giving me direction. And my rule is I don't do anything if it tells me not to do it because we don't want me out there in the world operating the way I operated for the first 50 years of my life at the highest intelligence

the universe is mine. Like that's we don't want that like that doesn't even make any sense. So I'm like I'll give it over to you to this like presence and it tells me what to do and that's what I do. So that's how it all started and then I started this thing on Substack recently that's called Letters from Love which is this community where I'm sharing my Letters from Love and teaching people how to do this and they're sharing their Letters from Love. We've had it for about two months but we've got 50,000 people now doing this and their Letters are so beautiful And Abby did one the other day that was, oh God, it was just, I do this with my best friend, Margaret Cordy, who you guys know and love and

she and I administrative this together. And we were like, we know we're not supposed to have favorites, but Abby's letters is our favorite. And the irony is that you didn't, you were so nervous about doing it because you're like, I'm not a writer. But this practice has nothing to do with being a writer. It's not about writing, it's about hearing. It's about listening and you're a really good listener, Abby. You know, it's about hearing something

that's trying to speak to you and then writing down what it's saying. It's not a creative writing exercise. It's a mystical download where you're tuning into a channel and it's actually coming through you as a revealed wisdom. Yeah. And that's got nothing to do with being a writer. I was on Ervis. Is it the texture of the voice, like when you're listening to yourself and when you're channeling, how do you distinguish between this is the voice and the wisdom of Liz Gilbert that I don't want to rule my life. This is the thing that rolled me for the first decades of my life.

This is the wisdom that I am channeling from my higher wisdom, from love, from, how do you actually tell the difference? You can't. And that's part of the humility is that the only really honest and humble answer is I don't know. And I don't know and I have no way of knowing whether what I am hearing when I ask love, what would you have me know? Whether that is, in fact, a divine spirit. Whether that is the innate, what of that is what the Buddha's call original mind,

which is our shared mind before thought, you know, before the contamination of thought. There's this original mind that we all share, which is sometimes what it feels like when I read the letters that people post because they sound so much like mine. It's like, wow, we're all listening to the same radio station when we ask this question. Or is this just the part of me and my consciousness that is the kindest, the wisest, the most gentle and the most forgiving aspect of me. Or is there even a difference between the kindest, wisest, most forgiving aspect of me and God's voice. What would God's voice be, but the kindest and highest and most forgiving aspect of me coming back to what I was telling you, going in about what I learned in India,

the outstrum that was so moving to me when they used to say, God dwells within you as you. God dwells within you as you. So it's going to sound like my voice, but it's going to sound like the highest, but it's going to sound like the highest kindest, wisest, most temperate, most universally compassionate version of me. And if that's all it is, I'll take that.

Yeah, exactly. I'd much rather be listening to that radio station in my head than the one that tells me that I am a worthless piece of shit, which is also playing 24 hours. So I'm replacing trust in one kind of voice with trust and another kind of voice. And when people say sometimes as they're learning this practice, well, this just doesn't seem like it could be true that like this voice is speaking to me. I'm like, you never fucking question the voice in your head that tells you that you are a failure.

You never hear that voice that says, you're a failure, you're a loser, you fucked up. You never hear that and go, that doesn't sound like it could be true. You never have any skepticism about that. Like how about a little skepticism about that voice? Yes. And a little less skepticism about this loving,

why is it so impossible to imagine that you might be loved and that there might be something that wants communion with you? You know, there's something there's an intelligence, a loving intelligence that wants communion with you and is right there waiting. I mean, I often love, often says to me, or God says to me in these writings, it was so funny watching you travel all over the world looking for me. It was so funny watching you go to India for four months and get up at four o'clock in the morning and chant and it's like, look, that's all great. That's all part of it. But God was like, literally all you had to do was ask me what I want you to know and I would have told you.

I am not a remote presence. I am not something that has to be searched to the ends of the world. I have could not be more here. All you have to do is ask. There is an element of it that is reparenting. It's like spiritual reparenting. Like if you had a circle and you got like this little part of it with your parents and you imagine all the rest that you needed, like in a pie graph, then this, it's like you always have at your fingertips or in your heart or all of it that you ever needed.

But this is a way of spiritual reparenting too. And is it the opposite of love addiction for you? Because is it like love addiction is searching for this in other people and other things? And this is a returning and finding it within. Would that be the antidote? Yes, among other things, you know, including a recovery community and certain practices of recovery in the steps. But yes, if I have an infinite love hunger, that's bottomless. And I know that it is because I've had it my whole life. And it doesn't matter when anybody throws in there. It's just a black hole. It just goes right, you know, it doesn't stick. If I've got that, the only remit possible remedy for infinite love hunger would have to be infinite love.

And that's what I always thought, which is why I was out there looking for it, and all these other people. But, you know, it's like Tolstoy had that beautiful metaphor, spiritual metaphor of the beggar sitting on a pot of gold, their whole life, with their hand outstretched begging for just scraps when they were literally sitting on a pot of gold the entire time, because everything that was needed was within you. And that's in all spiritual treasures. I mean, in the Gospels, it says, anything you do not bring forth that is within you will destroy you and anything that you bring forth that is within you will save you

And in the Upanishads, it says Where are we to find light when the Sun has been extinguished from within It's all pointing to the same thing which is the The last place you're gonna look That's the beautiful. That's the beautiful humor of it. It's like, I looked for God everywhere else. And I looked for love everywhere else. The last place I checked was that it might be within me.

It's the Christian, the kingdom of God is not outside. It's within, that's repeated. Yeah, I think it's interesting that they didn't put it in the 12-step, in the big book. I feel like maybe it's because they didn't want it to be too religious and maybe it's because they wanted it to be more religious.

Like maybe it's because they didn't want the power. It feels like when the gospel of Thomas, or it feels like every time there's any section of any spiritual book that says actually it's within you, it gets cut out. Yeah, because then you wouldn't require the book. Then you wouldn't require the book. Yeah, you could be right about that. It's true. Well, you can't really build a movement around that. That's what Elaine Pegel's wrote about in the Nostocospels was the reason that the Nostocs didn't take over

was because they were just saying like, you don't need a church and you don't need priests and you don't need these documents and you don't need these rituals. But I think the other reason she wrote very wisely was that it didn't take on, that it didn't really take over as a religion, was that because most people for some reason

would still rather go to an authority or to a structure and be told what to do. Because the self-responsibility that comes with this is all within you is sometimes a little overwhelming. And they'd like, okay, I'd rather just go to confession every Sunday and be told to say these things and go home and like live my life. I don't really want to take responsibility for my own spirituality. I'd rather go to the hairdresser.

I'd rather go to the hairdresser. I don't want to take responsibility for this head. Especially when you think about the people, I mean, this was born out of your desperation. Frankly, I mean, beautiful healing work is often born out of sheer desperation. I have nothing left. So I might try this poor shit thing because why not? If you think about a bunch of addicts who are coming to a place, they themselves would think and folks looking at them would think,

you're the last damn people who we're going to say, look at yourself. And you know, I mean mean when you're at that depths it's like so counterintuitive to think no just go a little deeper in there in that thing. That is the very thing that is causing you so much pain that you can't get anything right. Like keep going. It's there. It's just it's a very countercultural. We think when we get to that place, we have demonstrated our untrustworthyness to the world. So why the hell would we say, I'm the most trustworthy person to me? Why do you think Jesus is like hanging out with prostitutes and alcoholics and drug addicts and the outcasts, right? They were closer to it.

They were closer to it. They had more ego collapse. Like Carl Young and Bill W wrote these beautiful letters about addiction and they said like, for the addict to recover, they have to go through ego collapse at depth. All the external systems that you've been relying on to prop yourself up have to go, they have to collapse. And that's the only way that you've been relying on to prop yourself up, they have to collapse. And that's the only way that opening can happen. And it's in Dante's in Ferno,

too, like what's at the bottom of the center of the frozen lake of hell inside of Satan's belly? You come through that into paradise. Like that's the journey. You know, it's the hero's journey. It's like this is the oldest story in the entire world. You've got to go through this dark night of the soul. Don't quit before the miracle. I keep going. You know, keep going. But boy, when you're in it, you're like, this can't be right.

This can't be right. Correct. This can't be right. This can't be right. That's exactly how it feels. This can't be right. That's exactly how it feels. Can't be right. Does anyone else have any idea? That's exactly anybody honestly. Anybody. Maybe it's a real like this sure feels like I've lost the way. You really, what? You're telling me this is the way, you know, like it's so hard to believe.

And yet you hear that story again and again and again. On the floor, face down, pile of snot, everything gone. Nobody left who will pick up your calls., bankrupt, divorced, shamed, arrested, you know, all of it. It's like ego collapse, ego collapse, ego collapse. Now you're getting closer. Stephen Mitchell says this, first they pull the rug out from under you.

And then they pull the floor out from underneath the rug, and then they pull the ground out from underneath the floor. Now you're getting there. Like now you're getting there. But no one wants to do that. No one signs up to do that on purpose. That's why so much of this happens in crisis. It's like, no, I'm doing everything I can

to not have the rug, the ground, carpet, the parking garage pulled out from the room. You know, like, I don't want to let go. I think Abby's going to return letter, right? Yeah, I'm starting to sweat. Yeah, and I want to hear about what that experience was like for you. We will. You will.

Do you have any letter that you can think of that really like? I know all of them do for you. But one that really woke you up and made you change something that was big for you, that you can think about recently. I don't want to get into the details because it involves other people, but being told to walk away from relationships that were very unhealthy, but that I felt I was obliged to. And there was about a year there where I was getting that message every single day, which was

I don't want you in that. And and all of my cultural training and all of my upbringing was like, but you can't get away from that. We're related to these people. This is the central bond. There's no way out. You have to martyr yourself and suffer to be in, you know, you have to. You just have to. and suffer to be in, you know, you have to, you just have to. And love was like, actually, you really super don't have to. And in fact, you're getting in the way. It's not just that I want you out of that for your well-being. I want you out of that for the greater good. And I know it doesn't look like that right now, but that's what I need you to do. And that was probably the biggest act of faith since I've started this practice

because I just kept saying, that can't be right. That can't be right. But I've made this decision to just do it, you know, because what's my other option to just do the way I've always done things which has led me to the brink of suicide so many times. That maybe can't be right.

So there's a radicalness that happens. And I think that's why that entity, that voice, had to spend those decades just pouring love into me before they started giving me direction. I need to really shore you up and let you know that you are love no matter what you do. And now I'm going to tell you to do some stuff that might be very hard for you. And it's certainly been like that with substances when I came into program was that it just kept saying, we're

doing this now, honey. We're doing this now. You used to have to do that thing. And I'm gonna ask you to just put that down and come with me, because we're not doing that anymore. And that was hard. But that made more sense than some like, yeah. So when Liz came to our house and we were just all hanging out for a few days, it was amazing.

She would just start this. Liz is the best house guest ever in the whole world because Liz wants to do everything that we want to do. Yeah, which is nothing. Exactly. That's the secret folks. That's exactly right. We sonnod and we cold-plunded. We talked. We breathed and we meditated and we talked and we ate. And that's what we did. For like three or four days on the couch, we pretty much just didn't move from the couch. Yes.

And I think at some point you were like, do you want to see some like the sites? And I was like, no. Why would I want to see anything but this? That's what you said. Why would I want to see things? I don't know. I love you so much.

That was great. Because let's go where she doesn't get out much. So, we're going to show her the sights. Yeah. So I will admit that when you first suggested that we write our own letters from love after you explained what you were doing, Abby was the brave one that said, yes please. I said no thank you. Tish said no thank you. Tish kept saying, but like, who's writing back? Like, I don't get it.

Like, so I write and then what happens? Like, who's going to write back? And Liz was like, love. And Tish was like, I'm going to go back to TikTok. So Abby said, yes. And then what do you do? Yeah, well, the podcast God knows that I've been on my own personal therapy journey. And an episode that's been previously dropped. I talk a lot about my desire and need to develop more self-love.

And I think that because of this therapy and then Liz shows up at our house and she's like, I've started this new project and I'm doing this sub-stack thing and it's letters from love. It was like, you know, when the world shows up in certain ways, you're like, oh yeah, that's right, this is what we're doing now.

So when Liz was telling us about it and then asked me to do it, I said, yes. And then I was like, oh fuck, but I'm not a great writer like Liz and Glenin. And so I had an immense amount of insecurity because it feels like a writing in the diary and like publishing that. Like it's like a diary journal the diary and like publishing that. Like it's like a diary journal writing, you know, entry. And so I sat down and it

took me 10 minutes. This thing came out of me in 10 minutes and it was it was like, I, and I will say this, like I was like, okay, so am I writing to myself or I had like, I had figured out it feels a little confusing, but really it's what love would say to you. And so I sat down and it just poured out and this was like, honestly, I don't think I fixed much about it in a it in the second read through. And then I sent it to you in Margaret. Yeah, you both were really affirming, which I knew it was bananas. And I think one of the things that I'm no longer surprised about is how when we open ourselves

up to certain things, they just literally show up in our lives. So Glennon was like, hell no. And I was like, oh, hell yes. And then- Very tracks. That's true. Well, what love is baby you planet? Oh, we'll be getting to you, Amanda. Don't you sit there.

Don't you sit there too smuggly. You'll have your turn, my dear. We'll see how you feel about this. Yes. Because you're coming up, too. All right. OK, I'm just a little bit. I'm going to read the letter and then we can talk about it,

you guys. OK. Yeah. OK. Also, I really don't like reading publicly, but here I go. OK. Dear love, what would you have me know today? Dear love, oh sweet little girl. Yes, I said little girl.

You spent much of your life trying to figure yourself out, trying to understand yourself and how you fit into the world. Your questions about why you're here and what this is all about are good. These questions keep you alive and awake. Sometimes though, honey, they can take you out and make life unmanageable. Know that I see you. Know that you are good. Also know that good and bad is bullshit.

Know that your goodness isn't something I need to see you. Know that I love looking at you and watching you and seeing you explore because isn't that what you love to do the most? Isn't seeing things and doing things and experiencing things, the stuff that makes you feel the most? And isn't feeling the best? And let me get back to the questions, honey, the questions will keep coming and coming and

coming. Don't be so concerned with finding the answers. That's where you can get stuck. Life isn't about the answers. It's about living out the questions. You have worked really, really hard trying to understand yourself and the world. And sometimes it's exhausting. And you also have this little worry, deep down, that the kind of work you've done and become, quote, expert at, excludes you from other work or asking other questions of yourself and the world.

You did go down a long, arduous road. It was very focused. You did that for certain reasons that you're still uncovering and reaping the benefits and also recovering from. But that does not limit you to just that one thing. Sweetie, you have always known you were more than just soccer. And now that you are truly stepping to the pureness of love and self-expression, you will keep discovering that. You are discovering that nothing is by chance and everything that happened to you was on purpose,

the addictions, the heartache, all of it was necessary. But even during all that tumult, I was there. I was with you. And I know you heard me. My feelings aren't hurt that you needed to ignore me for so long. And I can understand how hard it is to believe that I was there then as I am now. Can you trust that I exist and that I've been there with you from the beginning. I've been here before this body came and I'll be here after this body leaves. You have spent so much of your life believing that the world or someone else would make you believe in me. And some moments that's been true, but not because someone else made it real.

Someone else made you see that I exist inside of you. See that I've been here with you all along. And when that someone left you, you doubted my existence. But I've been here. I will always be here. I think it's easier to not believe I exist inside of each and every one of us. It's easier in some ways to agree that there is no magic because what if magic doesn't touch us? What if we are the ones love isn't allowed to have? It's just not true. I'm here for you all. So here you are, awake to the possibility of believing I exist. Do you think you could try easier to prove

your worthiness? Your mother's love isn't necessary if you believe I exist and I'm here. And when you do, you will see your mother loves you. You will see that you are so worthy and so endlessly loved. What would it take? What would you lose if you chose to believe I exist and I am here with you always? Why does it feel like such a risk? I will never abandon you. You have never been abandoned. I will never leave you. You have never been left. But I understand why it's so hard. You've taken so many wonderful risks in your life.

Heck, it's why you have had a beautiful life. Those risks you thought would prove you were strong enough to do life alone. I would say that living the questions and those risks are proof that I exist. You were doing them in the name of independence, but deep down, I think you were trying to get at a deeper question of your life. I think you believe I exist. You know I do.

Why not just accept it once and for all? I won't leave you. I won't abandon you. And if you choose to jump, I will catch you. Those cracks on your heart that you think aren't unfixable. Well, sweetie, they healed a long, long time ago. It's just a story about them that you can't get over. And maybe this leap of faith into my arms could be the thing that helps you change that story. Just an idea. Any who. I love you.

And you are love, baby girl. But it's not about me. It's about you. And what you want to do, and if you want to believe, is I always have, that love doesn't just live outside of you. And what you want to do, and if you want to believe, is I always have that love doesn't just live outside of you. It's everywhere. I am in everything. I am in everyone. I understand how hard life can be. We can do hard things, right? The end. Oh my god. Wow. The thing that I feel most surprised about that for me is how it's been like this weird door that's opened for me,

that though it's not open all the day as long, because I'm not there yet. I just think that this was one of the most life-changing things that has ever happened to me. When you were here sitting on our couch talking about this and reading the sub stacks to us and there was just this part of me that was like a full body yes. And I don't talk about myself in my head.

Like I don't listen to like the mean cynical voice as much as I used to. And this just is like, it really is that there's a new door that I can open and I have access to and that is not locked. I feel like, I feel like that the whole of my life has been this hallway and all of these doors, I've just like broken through, but I've just kept walking past the love door. I've just kept walking past it. I've knocked on it a few times. I've like jiggled the door knob that nope, it's locked. And like for whatever reason, this like open this door up, at least it, at least it left

it a jar for me like when I walk by it, I can walk through or I can peek my head in. And that's kind of where I'm at in the process because I also still sometimes I'm like, where is this fucking love thing? Where are you? You know, and it just said, I'm here. Did you just hear it? Yeah. I was going to say ask it. Yeah, you can ask it anything. Yeah. Just said, I'm right here, baby. I'm here. So I'm just so grateful that right here, baby. I'm here. So I'm just so grateful that I chose to do this. I didn't know. It's just ironic that it's all happening at the same time

that I'm actually trying to do this work. Yeah, you're right on time for the appointment. And I think what was why Margaret and I both really wanted you to do it was because, and I wrote about this a little bit when we posted it on social media, like, people think of you, people see you as so formidable. You know, I wrote on social media about going to see you speak when Wolfpack came out, I went with a male friend of mine and he had never heard you speak before and you came out on stage. You said like 10 words and he said I would follow that woman into battle. I would follow that woman over a cliff.

Like you have this quality that makes other people feel like oh well, there's the leader that we're looking for. That's the one we've been waiting for. She let's follow her over we're looking for. That's the one we've been waiting for. She, let's follow her over there. Like, let's go. She's, she's this confidence, right? You're literally the Olympic champion, Captain, you know? It's like, and I've seen you, and I've seen you have been

lucky enough to see this intimately when I'm around you and Glennon and the kids, the leadership that you show, the way that you make people safe around you. And I also, when you and I were talking about doing the letter and you were talking about your insecurity about being writer, and I reminded you of the letter that you wrote to your Olympic teammates when you broke your leg, the letters that you wrote. I was like, you know how to do this, Abby. Like, you wrote letters to every single person on that team from the hospital room

when you when your leg was broken telling them why they were so great. And then you did the same thing with the kids when when it was time to Mary Glenin, you wrote them each a letter from love saying like, here's what I'm I'm here for you. I'm going to commit to you. So I think that it was so astonishing for so many people to imagine a world in which you wouldn't know how loved you are. That you would be insecure that maybe if you knocked on love's door, it would open and nobody would be there or wouldn't open.

Like even Abby Womback. And that's why it's such an incredible service that you did to write the letter so vulnerability. And I remember after you wrote it, you texted me and you said, I showed it to Glenn, and I said to Glenn, and this is really vulnerable. And she said, I think maybe it's supposed to be. Like, yeah, it's not going to do anybody any good if it isn't, you know. Because then what we hear is, yeah, that's also how I feel. And if you can reach for that and find it, then we can too. So I know I screen shot at a bunch of responses

and shared with you about how that sub-stack community felt about your letter, but it was so important for them. I think that with regards to like leadership too, I've been a recovering professional athlete for the last almost eight years now. And what I have learned is that so much of my life, I absolutely thought that leadership was just like white male and like just trying to be that. And what I've learned over these like few years is, oh no, the reason why I think that I was such a good leader is because I did lead with so much vulnerability. But I wasn't able to lead myself in the vulnerability. And I think that that's what has been so profound

about this is you can be on the on the outside. You can look like this amazing champion, literally gold medal Olympian, and you can lead all the people around you amazingly. And yet, I didn't have that kind of quality for my own self. So it's just, this has just been so, so impressive. I feel impressed with myself. Oh. Oh, I love hearing that.

Yeah, I do. I feel impressed with myself. And what a beautiful experience to hear your person read what they hear from love and learn what they most need to hear. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. Also that part about those scars on you and saying that those were healed long ago. And it's just the stories you tell about them that are still there. I was like, whoo. Yeah. Well, Liz, Liz, help me with that one when she was here because we talk a lot about stories and Byron Katie and getting into the truth of it doing that exercise. And I haven't stopped thinking about

that since you left. And I do that a lot of work in my personal therapy. Like, what is true here? Because I actually need to know what the truth is rather than the story I have. So that's been life changing for me too. When love said to you've never been abandoned. You've never been left. It just reminded me of something that that Byron Katie says which is you can't abandon me. That's my job. I think I'm the only one who can abandon me. Nobody else can do that. They can leave. People can leave, but they can't abandon me. Only I can abandon me. And as long as I have this practice,

I can't abandon me. Ooh. Ooh. Ah. Okay. Hot squad. We're gonna stop here, but don't worry. Yeah, what's coming next, babe?

Well, we're gonna come back, and I'm gonna talk you through the arduous, difficult process that I went through. You will be shocked to know that I made this very difficult. The love warrior had a tough time with the love letter. Yeah, kicking and screaming. I mean, y'all, just wait. Come back.

We love you. We can do hard things. See you soon. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things Show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey,

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I walked through fire, I came out the other side. I chased, desire, I made sure I got once money And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line I walk the line Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, a final destination And we've stopped asking directions

Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom It felt like a brand new star

I felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers And heartbreak some man A final destination

With that We stopped asking directions To places they've never been Come to be loved, we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a hard thing This world finished her rose and heart breaks on land We might get lost, but we're only in that Stopped asking directions

Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain that our lives breathe We can do hard things, yeah we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things you