We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 286. Brandi Carlile & Tish Melton: Behind the Scenes of Making Tish’s New EP

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Today, Glennon shares a very special conversation with two of her favorite people on the planet: Brandi Carlile and Tish Melton. In this celebration of music, collaboration, friendship, and community, they take you behind the scenes of how Brandi and Tish created Tish’s debut EP, When We're Older.   Discover:  -What it’s really like having Brandi Carlile as your mentor;  - The happy 3:00 AM accidents that found their way into the album;  - Why we need to take girls’ emotions seriously;  -What it finally took for Glennon and Tish to – just recently – realize they are two different people; and  -Why we should stop justifying who we are.   Download/Stream Tish’s debut EP, When We’re Older, Here: https://ffm.to/whenwereolder  For our other We Can Do Hard Things conversations with Brandi Carlile, check out: Episode 76. Brandi Carlile: Live From My Couch! Episode 77. Double Date with Brandi & Catherine Carlile! Brandi Carlile is an eleven-time GRAMMY Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, #1 New York Times Bestselling author and activist – one of music's most respected voices. Aside from the production of her own work, Carlile has been increasingly in-demand as a record producer – helming albums by Tanya Tucker, Lucius, The Secret Sisters, Brandy Clark, and Tish Melton. Tanya Tucker’s 2019 album While I’m Livin’, co-produced by Carlile with Shooter Jennings, won the GRAMMY for Best Country Album. Last year saw her production talents excel with new album projects from Brandy Clark and Joni Mitchell – both of which took home wins at this year's GRAMMY Awards – as well as her cover of “Home” for the last season of Ted Lasso and her version of “Closer To Fine” with wife Catherine Carlile for Barbie The Album (Best Weekend Ever Edition). Carlile has collaborated closely with Joni Mitchell, Elton John, The Highwomen, Soundgarden, Alicia Keys, Marcus Mumford, Dolly Parton and more. When not on the road, she spends time in her home studio in rural Washington state where she and Catherine raise their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah. Tish Melton: 18-year-old singer, songwriter and multi-instrumentalist who wears her incredibly perceptive heart on her sleeve. “As a songwriter, I’ve realized you can just tell stories,” she says. “They don’t have to be big, dramatic moments. Personally, I learned how to write songs by simply sharing my journey and feeling how I naturally do.” For her debut EP When We’re Older, she has teamed up with eleven-time GRAMMY® Award-winning artist Brandi Carlile, who is a mentor to Melton and joins as producer. Their musical chemistry is undeniable, rooted in mutual respect, shared taste, and an appreciation for good songwriting and musical catharsis. Inspired by the clear-eyed storytelling and indie rock influences of Taylor Swift and boygenius, Melton chronicles teenage relationships – from the lonely pain of first love, unrequited love, friend crushes, joyous friendships, and the pain, fear and excitement of becoming an adult. She tells these stories as she’s living them, with a sharp eye for detail and lyricism that brings them to life. Her work has received praise from Variety, V Magazine, FLOOD, and Magnet Magazine. When We’re Older is a bold and generous opening statement from a newcomer who is destined to share her stories, and it’s available to stream or download now. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today is a really special day for me and I hope that it will be a very special hour for you. The reason is that we have today two of my favorite people on the entire planet, Brandi Carlisle and Tish Mountain. And they are here today in conversation with each other and us to celebrate Tish's first EP called When We're Older And also to celebrate music and collaboration and friendship and community because these two have a very special musical friendship. It's really been incredibly inspiring to me and I think it will be to you too.

Brandy Carlisle is an 11-time Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, number one New York Times bestselling author and activist. Brandy is truly one of music's most respected voices. Aside from the production of her own work, Carlyle has been increasingly in demand as a record producer, helming albums by Tanya Tucker, Lucius, The Secret Sisters, Brandy Clark, and Tish Melton. Carlyle has collaborated

closely with Joni Mitchell, Elton John, The High Women's Soundgarden, Alicia Keys, Marcus Mum, for Dolly Parton, and more when Not on the Road. She spends time in her home studio in rural Washington State, where she and Catherine raise their two daughters, Evangeline and Elisha. Tish Melton is an 18-year-old singer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist who wears her incredibly perceptive heart on her sleeve. For her debut EP, When We're Older, she has teamed up with 11-time Grammy award-winning artist Brandy Carlisle, who is a mentor and friend to Melton and joins Tish as the producer of her first EP.

Their musical chemistry is undeniable, rooted in mutual respect, shared taste, and an appreciation for good songwriting and musical catharsis. Her work has received praise from Variety, V Magazine, Flood, and Magnet Magazine. When We're Older is a bold and generous opening statement from a newcomer who is destined to share her stories and it's available to stream or download now. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things, Brandy and Tish. How are you both?

I'm great. You are? Mm-hmm. Why are you great? I'm great. You are? Why are you great? I just turned 18 a couple of days ago. So that was fun. It was scary but fun. And I get to miss the day of school to do this. So that's really fun as well.

That's awesome. I'm really good too, Tish. It's happy to see you 18. You look different somehow. I don't know, I can't explain it. Do you remember being 18, Brandy? What were you like? Vaguely. I think I was about the same. That's amazing. I could see that.

Just very serious. Yeah. No, I remember it. I had already been living out of my parents' house for a year because you could do that back then. And now that's not a possibility. And just as laser focused on making a path for myself in music as Tish is, we have a lot in common actually. Like what? Well, we have that kind of laser focus and that steadiness, you know?

There's a knowing that I feel that Tish has. You don't seem to be overly anxious about the speed upon which you deliver your impact because you know you will have one. Just pod squatters, just all you anxious parents, just note that it can happen. You can be your anxious self and raise a kid who is not. Nice little fact. Thanks, Brandy. I want to not talk during this because you are the two most interesting people I know. And so I would like to not take any time from you two. But let's just start by, Brandy, you tell the story of how you even found each other, how you started working together, your origin story, and then you can just jump in when you want to, T.

Cool. I mean, I started seeing Tish through you guys, and I was like, wow, that is a talented kid. And you were really young, Tish, when I started seeing videos of you singing and playing guitar. And again, you had that same focus, the same dead-eyed thing that you do now, you know, just like you're not going to be phased by your surroundings. You're not embarrassed. You're not worried. You are going to like deliver your inner knowing through music. And you had that even then that I was like, man, that kid is like formidable.

And then Glenn, when you reached out to me and asked me about getting involved for some music with the pod, you know, when you were first starting it, and me and Tish did that project together where we were working on the song, We Can Do Hard Things. And I was kind of starting to understand what kind of energy Tish was putting out there, what she was going to do lyrically and musically, getting involved with changing it and sculpting it, and then sensing a really healthy friction and resistance from Tish around making certain changes because she really feels that she knows who she is then and now. And right or wrong, that friction is like a really good sign of a budding artist and actual artist. And since she ages in leap years,

it wasn't only but a few years later then, or even two, I don't even know how many years later, I'm getting these demos of songs that are like very real songs with real hooks and writing that is happening that is like in the moment writing, like in the present writing, not mimicking other artists and is just centrally focused on this person's life experience, which is incredibly, I'm going to try really hard and not use this word more than once, mature.

It's an incredibly mature outlook to write about your right now. Because what young people do and what artists do is they, in an attempt to look mature, they write about their future self or they mimic, you know, an older artist. And this person's just not doing that. And I was like, there's just something really formidable and steady about this artist. And I can hear it in lyrics, I can hear it in the music.

And I became intrigued and interested and started just trying to get involved with the conversation of where Tish wants to go. And what we decided to do, Tish, right, was just go for it, just record music, because why not? And I'm really pleased with what we came out with. What was it like recording with Brandy Tish? I was really nervous walking into the first day

like at Shangri-La, which I found myself being nervous about the wrong things, I think. That's like a thing that I feel like you and Brandy both say about me a lot is how steady I am. Like not anxious about things, which is true. I feel like a lot of things that people should be anxious about, like playing with a band

for the first time. I walked in there and I saw the band and I was like, wow, I have never ever played guitar or sung around anyone else before. And I walked in there and I was like, I was nervous about how would I get lunch? Or like, well, I don't know what it's gonna be like. Like, I don't know where I'm gonna sit

or what I'm gonna talk about. But I wasn't really nervous about the actual music part of it, which I feel like is really common for me. So I was really nervous walking to the first day and then I was more nervous when I realized how many things I had forgotten to be nervous about. And then- You like compartmentalized him behind the lunch.

And then we just started playing the first song and I remember we walked in there and then we kind of got started right away. And we started with every song. I would sit on the couch and play it to Brandy and then she would pick up her guitar and start playing or like thinking of a way we could switch up a melody or one tiny lyric

to make the hook better. And we would just play together just us. I felt like that was like so special to start that way. Cause I think that also created kind of like a chemistry just between us. And then we introduced the band after that. They were just such pros that it went super smoothly. Like we got all five songs in like one day,

which was super cool. All the basic tracks, which, you know, I hope that steady is not to be confused with placid or that you can't be riled because you're also deeply emotional and kind of a seeing person or whatever. But it's the steadiness that you have made itself really obvious in that day, leading a drummer, a drummer playing to a 17-year-old guitar player. That just doesn't happen every day. And it was really just fun to watch those guys furrow their brows and kind of watch

you and be like, I'm following her. I'm following her. She's square, feed her on the ground, and she knows where we're going with this. And I was like, wow, what must that feel like to you to know that, yeah, like the house of cards is built on your hands, your steadiness. Yeah. I mean, I talk about it a lot because I think that it wasn't like relief when I started

playing and it kind of like all gelled and I was able to lead the drummer. It was more like I was exhaling, but you know, it's like this whole time that's how I felt it was supposed to be like or it's like my first time, this is my first time doing this, and I'm going to be doing it for a long time, and it just felt right. Yeah. And I had also gone in there, I was super sick too. Yeah, you were like really worried about your voice.

And my voice was like completely gone, but then we found that when I had gotten my voice back, when we were back at your house, all of my vocal takes were just worse because I didn't have my guitar. They were worse, but they were. Yeah, you do lose something. It's something happens.

You didn't really lose anything. And some of the takes that we did here, we did wind up keeping, but that again is another indication of an innately gifted artist is when you wind up keeping scratch takes, accidental takes, like those instinct moments, make the record, you know that you're dealing with somebody who's kind of sanctioned in a way. Let's talk about the songs a little bit. When you said instinctual moments, I was thinking about the story you told me about sober. When you're recording sober, talk to us about the song sober, and then what the moments were like recording that with Brandi.

Because you guys were at Brandi's house, explain where you were recording. Oh, okay, so sober, I think that's one of the songs that I'm most proud of because I think it's the only one that I had the very clear vision of how I wanted it to sound. And I feel like in the beginning,

I don't think Brandi even understood, like I was trying to explain vision of how I wanted it to sound. And I feel like in the beginning, I don't think Brandi even understood. Like I was trying to explain it about how I wanted it there to be such a long outro with no words. Like that was the only thing we were not on the same page on. But I was so clear in what I wanted. And then it ended up how I envisioned it when I was writing the song, which is it's the only song that ended up that way

because I had no idea what to expect when I walked into the studio. So I didn't have a real clear vision of how I wanted the song to sound production-wise besides sober. So walking out of the studio from the first day, I felt really proud because I knew that we had the long outro that I wanted and kind of felt like a montage, like a movie. And then in the studio, at Brandy's studio, we were sitting around one day and Brandon was mixing the end of sober, not sorry, not mixing, just like trying to figure out what it was gonna sound like.

And he had his headphones on, he was just locked in. And we were talking for like an hour. And then I was just kind of looking around the studio and I picked up a poetry book, a Leonard Cohen poetry book. And I opened it in the first poem that I opened it to is the Thousand's Poem, which is basically like all of us are fake artists and we're just pretending to be artists and no one like really belongs, but I'm going to choose to tell my story anyway. And I thought that was so cool. And I think that's such a cool way to introduce myself to the world

of just like promising people that even though I feel like we all feel like we don't belong most of the time, but I'm just going to choose to tell my story anyway. And so that's the talking at the end of sober. And then Brandi is speaking lyrics of a Joni Mitchell song. The very rare occasion that Joni writes in an observational, but uplifting sense, which she's talking about, you got to shake your fist at lightning. It was, we had a vinyl of Four of the Roses and neither of us really vetted either of the poems that we read. It was about a 30-second decision.

I said, I'll read this one, you said I'll read this one. And if you actually look at the exchange at the give and take that happened between those two pieces of poetry, it's just another one of those things that just was like really meant to be that way, you know? And you communicating what you wanted in that outro and just a lot of what you communicated musically came through you playing me things by other artists. And I think that's really important for a producer to know and a younger artist to know,

even when there's not an age difference between the artist and the producer, is that sometimes that's the only real language, especially if you're just getting started with the music and you're not counting bars and using studio terminology. And in my past, working with producers that are different than me or older than me, playing the wrong thing could get me laughed at. Like, if it was in a different key or it didn't have the right production, and I would play this thing for a producer because I couldn't get my point across or I wasn't speaking on their level.

And I would notice as I was playing it that it didn't sound like I remembered it, that it must have been a feeling and not a sound, you know? And because of how much I think I understand you, like as a person, Tish, even when you played me things that weren't in the key or the tempo or didn't have the instrumentation that we're using and they were just totally different and out of left field, I would try and listen for the way that that music felt and see if we could speak to that instead of the exact instrumentation. So when you were playing me those long outros and there were these cinematic things happening and messages buried inside of ambiance and ether, I knew that that's what you are going to be going for with the end of sober. And I think we know that now I think it's better than any of the outros of any of the songs

that you played me as an example. It's insane. It's so beautiful. It's my favorite. We stayed up so late too. Some of this stuff you can only do very late at night. So you have to be almost delirious. Is that what you guys were?

Almost delirious? Yeah, or it's like last minute, like it's like things that it's like, okay, it's getting so late Let's just do this and we'll figure it out tomorrow And then we did it and then the next day we're like, oh, that's good. Let's just keep it It's like I feel like a lot of times the things that we thought that we would end up replacing For the things that just stayed

Because I don't know I'm an overthinker and so when I started thinking about like that's when we were recording the Vocals for damage. And I could not hit the notes, even though they're not even that high. I was just overthinking and overthinking. But then we ended up keeping all of the takes when my voice was kind of shaky or cracking because it just sounded very real.

Yeah, very cool. I thought that's the case. Yeah, very cool. You can be taught to sound perfect. You can't be taught to sound cool. Oh, that's good. Okay, I'm going to think talk to people who are providing a sense of hope and inspiration when life changes course.

Uplifting conversations with inspiring individuals like NFL legend Drew Brees, singer-songwriter Ziggy Marley, and today's show co-anchor Savannah Guthrie as you have never heard her before. I found faith more viscerally not because the bad thing didn't happen, but because it did. I promise you, like me, believe these conversations with some wisdom for your own journey. Empowered and inspired to make space in your own life. New episodes of Making Space with Hoda Kothby are released every Wednesday. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Can you talk about Long Drive?

And I want you to tell the story of how you wrote it, but then what it became when you produced it with Brandy. Okay, I'll just start at the very beginning. I was at soccer practice at school, and there's some drama at school, and I was feeling very stressed, and I called you. And I was like, mom, I'm freaking out, like I'm spiraling, I was walking around the track,

like I was hurt so I couldn't play, and I just, things were building on top of each other, and I was super stressed out. And then I got in my car to drive home and I was like stopped at a red light and I like had this moment and I was thinking about my life and thinking about how old I was and I was looking to the passenger seat of my car and there's no one there. I was driving myself and I was on the highway on PCH. But anyway, I was at the red light and I just realized that I am the age

that I used to dream about being when I was little. I was 17. I used to think when I was little that I would be perfect when I was that age. And it would be just like this movie and out of the perfect life. And I'd be super popular and cool. And I realized that I was none of those things.

I mean, I think I'm cold, but in that moment I was spiraling about stuff and so I just literally pulled over my car and wrote Long Drive in my notes app. And it was just like a dump. It felt like I was like throwing up all my feelings onto this no-tab thing. But I don't think I changed anything about that song when I went into the studio lyrically, which was cool because there were some tweaks that we did in the other songs, but Long Drive just really stayed the same. And so we went into the studio and tracked it the first day. And then when we were in Brandi's home studio it was like literally 3am and we were recording these harmonies and my brain just wasn't working and so Brandi was like I'm gonna do these harmonies for you and then you can go in there and just copy them exactly

because we were like we're done like we did so many vocal takes of that song and then when we listened back to the song with Brandi singing the harmonies, it just sounded like this conversation between us and we decided to keep it. Yeah, there was like a generational bridge that just kind of matched the lyrics. That's why I love the name you chose for the album because I think it's really an interesting thing to be aware of who you are and your age. And honestly, I'm not going to try to get too broad with it, but I think that that's one area where you're like really lucky is that a lot of the people that you admire are

writing like that too. They're not projecting themselves into another time and age. They're just very aware of where they are. And I noticed that with the people that you were hipping me to, like Lucy McAlpine and Boy Genius and Phoebe Bridgers and Lucy Dacus, like sort of specifically, but then even through them and through you, I've gotten hip to and gotten to know Gracie Abrams

and Noah Kahn and the way that they're writing, Noah Kahn says, I'll call your mom. Oh God. It's like, you don't say that when you're 40, you know, you don't say that when you're 30. It's just very unashamed to be 23 or however old these artists are. And I don't know if I've seen that kind of an awareness and a centeredness in a generation's like songwriting since like Laurel Canyon. And even then I don't think

it was as warts and all, you know, Emily, I'm sorry. I just make it up as I go along. It's so unpretentious and yet not dumbed down. You know, I'm actually really keen on the way young people are writing songs right now. And you, I think, are sort of leading that charge. And it's so weird because while we were doing Long Drive, I think I got a call. I had told you I had a call scheduled with one of my great idols,

Sarah McLaughlin, who is responsible for so many of the ways that we congregate as women and artists, or at least was part of the architectural plan to make that possible for all of us within the industry. And I have a ton of respect for her. And when we get to talk and things can get really complicated, really fast, you know, we're strategizing and we both have these kind of big minds. And then when we sort of retreat into our artistry, we were discussing on this call, what do we write about?

You know, because we're concerned with the big things of the world and we're concerned with describing love from both sides now, you know, she's divorced and has adult children and I'm a lesbian and I have two children and we have all these complicated things we can write about. And in the background of all of this is Long Drive.

Is this 17-year-old brilliant songwriter that's writing about an experience she had in the front seat of her car where she recognized that she was at an age that felt make or break to her, you know? And I wonder sometimes if people like me and Sarah McLaughlin couldn't benefit from the whole stop, get small, and what's afoot around me right now and write about that. You know, what's within arm's reach?

Is that a song or not? Like, yeah, yeah, it's a song to your generation, it's a song and I really like that. And it's always one little thing, like I'm thinking about the Noah Kahn song. I'm obsessed with him right now, but there's orange juice in the fridge. He's writing about a friend who's getting sober, but the line is there's orange juice in the refrigerator for you.

Like it's the little thing. Yeah, because he actually said that to someone. Yeah. There's a school of thought that, yeah, if you'd actually say something in a conversation, it's not a song, it's a conversation. And I think I really disagree. And I don't know if I had as much of an opinion about it before I started working with Tish and getting involved in some of those lyrics.

You know? Actually, I remember in the 90s when Globe Sessions came out from Cheryl Crowe. And this is the first time I ever kind of witnessed it. She's singing in the song Crash and Burn and she says, in case you ever wanted to track me down, I'll take my cell phone to bed. It's just like, that was a very, technically that's an unhipped line at the time.

There's no metaphor. It's like really industrial. It's really right now and taking you out of the story and making you picture me having a cell phone. But that was the first time I remember hearing a lyric that's just like so right now. Even in Americana music, we still sing about hopping trains in the dust bowl and shit. We're not where we are. And I just love that about Tish's music and all the people that Tish is listening to and hip to. This is a whole movement I can really get behind. Yeah.

They're taking their lives seriously too. They're like, I don't have to pretend that life starts when I'm an adult. My life is important right now. Taking their feelings seriously. There's so many of your songs that are about friendship, about love. Tell me what you were saying to me this morning.

Yeah. Someone asked me what they think sets apart teenage crushes and love and heartbreak from adult and why teenage love songs or just teenage feelings in general are so impactful in the music world. And I was thinking about it and I just think that I mean I guess a lot of being a teenager is like first but it's also you haven't lived long enough to know that the world doesn't end when you have a certain feeling or you have like a certain experience or a heartbreak or any of that so like when I'm writing about that I feel like that resonates with a lot of people my age because I don't know a lot of the feelings that, I feel like that resonates with a lot of people my age.

Cause I don't know, a lot of the feelings that I have feel like the end of the world. And I think when you're an adult, you're expected to understand that everything will be okay and that the world doesn't end. And like if you have a certain feeling, the world goes on. But I mean, and then I also was asked like how it feels to have people of all ages resonating with my music.

And I mean, I love it, but I also like my hope for that is that if people much older than me can relate to my music, then they're also taking teenage girls feeling seriously. Because they also can resonate with what I'm feeling. Yeah. That's absolutely true. Brandy, how is being a producer, like watching you do this, it's such a beautiful thing to watch. Like you going into these people's lives and music,

what is it to you? And how is it different than being an artist? And also you've taken so many people who have such strong legacies and who are older than you and who have trailblazed. And are you intentionally now also reaching back for the younger ones? And why and what does that feel like? It's really different for each person. And I almost think it's more interesting when other people comment on whatever the heck

I've been doing than when I comment on it because I'm so clouded in a mission for each individual person that it kind of starts a process of rambling that I can't really stop. What I will say is that artists are really pure conduits of goodness in the world. And those sort of portals, they can get foggy and clogged in our perception of those artists, whether they're younger or older or disgraced or underappreciated or ostracized for whatever reason. Clearing out those windows, unclogging those sort of conduits just allows a really pure and profound goodness to come into the world through them. Joni is obviously a really good example of that and ties into what we're saying about

taking young women's feelings seriously. Is that Joni, the work that she did, the foundational work that she did in songwriting, what it really did for women, whether they were artists or not, was it started to destigmatize having feelings and started to dispel myths of hysteria. And as soon as people start taking Joni Mitchell seriously and Joni Mitchell's legacy seriously, they're going to start taking you seriously, Tish, and they're going to start taking your peers seriously. And that's why Gracie has River tattooed on her arm.

That's why she's Taylor's hero. Because people know that this person, however flawed, however uniquely flawed, started the process of destigmatizing feelings and bringing songwriting into the first person, which is one of now the ways that we communicate as a culture, whether we're artists or not. So to get involved with that kind of heady shit, that kind of work is as interesting to me as writing music. And I've had to come to terms with that.

Am I a real artist or do I like facilitating these moments better? I don't even know anymore, but I love the idea of women and marginalized people being taken seriously and adding to the kind of annals of culture. So I love the idea of working with a young person. I love the idea of being involved with someone like Joni, whose legacy has been a bit miscommunicated through the years. And now that feels all really cleared up. And this is an exciting time for me. Tish, why were you, I won't use the word hysterical now. I should stop using it. I love that word though. It's so good.

I mean, no, because I feel that way all the time. Yeah, same. When we were watching the Grammys, this last Grammys, when the moment came that Brandi came out on the stage, so you walked out on the stage, Brandi, to do the unbelievable introduction you did for Joni, which was so beautifully written where you spoke of her so beautifully and you said she was like the one who goes skiddy-dipping first

and then the rest of us, I'll never forget that, tished out and crying when you walked out on stage and then it didn't stop, it just kept getting more hysterical to the point where it was like interrupting. But- Well, we're sisters.

Yeah. And then Joni and then Allison and Sister Strings and all the people and then you all started singing. So then I started in. Everybody just freaking, it was a nightmare. Okay, we just, but can you Tish try to put into words? Because I actually haven't asked you this yet. Why?

Like why the immediate tears when Brandi starts saying things and why it continued so much when they were up there with Joni? I think first of all in this past week, I've been in a very fragile state anyway, because I was like refusing to let myself think about turning 18. And then, I mean, I don't know.

I think that like the tears came from like, I'm always so proud of the people that I know and being able to be close to people that make such a difference. But then also, I don't know, it feels like at this point, the people like Brandi and the people that I'm surrounded with in her world, they're all like my family. And so seeing them all on stage together with Joanie, who feels like she started everything. It feels like

she's the root of all the songwriting that all the people that I love and the people that I call my family and my world, it feels like she started it. Are you crying? Just keep going. And then she just started singing both sides now. And I was thinking, I don't know, I feel like I'm at the point, like I'm starting to experience the thing that she's talking about in that song from like the first side, from the less mature side. It feels like turning 18 or like starting to have a lot of the first experiences like from the less mature side, it feels like turning 18 or starting to have a lot of the first experiences like life and love and cloud. It feels like I'm looking at it from the first perspective. So I kind of realized that as I get older, I'm going to start thinking about it

from the second perspective also. But then I also realized how young I am in that moment too. And how I haven't had enough perspective to understand the song yet. And so I was like thinking about all of these things while like my family is on the stage. Don't do that. You know what I mean? Because that's the thing you're so good at, Tish, is going, I don't need perspective. I don't need to question whether or not my feelings are valid and turn on the news and like make myself squash them down because other people are experiencing different things than me.

That's exactly what, actually, kind of what Joni did, not to go off on Joni thing, but sort of for all of us is like, yeah, you're right. Like when she wrote both sides now, she was totally humiliated by the public and laughed at. And they didn't, they wouldn't even really accept her recording her own song, you know? And then here she is, two trials of like learning to walk later and an aneurysm and just a

life of, you know, just battling stigma. And listen, she's a white woman in the music industry. She's done really well too. But again, this kind of this disclaimer style culture comes in where if I voice any pain, if I voice any turmoil at all, then I have to voice that, that turmoil isn't justified at the exact same time. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And that is the thing that you get, you already get it, you get it in your songs, you don't need to justify who you are and where you are. You just sing about it because it's true for you. And then it's also true for thousands of other people who are going to hear it and feel like through you they have a way to speak, you know.

We're in an interesting place, the two of us, because we've never done this before. Parenting has always been pretty intuitive to me, but now I'm so out of my league and I am parenting a kid who when she first played at the Troubadour that night, Linda Perry asked her to come do a fundraiser. I had never seen her play anything, anywhere, just in her bedroom. And now she's gonna go up at the Troubadour and the day before I was like,

should we get an outfit ready? Like, should we do- By the way, it's the Troubadour. Like, oh my God. It's a big deal, right? Yeah. And she looked at me like, why would I do that the way, it's the troubadour. Like, oh my God. It's a big deal, right? Yeah. Yeah. And she looked at me like, why would I do that?

What are you talking about? And I'm like, oh, because see what you do is you just like turn into a different person. You just like get really upset. Because it can't be you. You're my child. No, what are you going to do? You're going to go out and be yourself.

That's just, that's not what people do. Okay. You create a persona and then you so watching her get up on that stage and the whole place just go silent and then I it was an amazing experience because the whole place erupted afterwards and it was really beautiful and we were all stunned. And when I went up to her afterwards she was surrounded by people and all the And when I went up to her afterwards, she was surrounded by people and all the, and I said, what God, do you believe what just happened?

And she was like, yeah, I do believe it. That's what I planned to happen. I'm not surprised by any of it. She's not surprised. She just is doing this thing and she never changes who she is to do it. Which I mean, I was playing guitar for maybe like two years before I like really started working with Brandy and playing guitar and writing and every time I would play something everyone would be like

oh my god I don't believe it like I don't believe it can you believe this happened and I feel like that was one thing that felt like kind of like an exhale when I started working with Brandy because I would play something and she'd be like yeah yeah, like, okay, like I believe, like it's like she believed that it was right from the beginning, which I think that's like the difference in reactions between other people and Brandi. I just felt like from the beginning,

she had this belief that what I was doing was right and it took me seriously from the beginning. When like the other people, it was like the shock and I was so annoyed with people being just shocked at me. Like I was like, no, I bet it's like everyone like could shock. And I was so annoyed with people being just shocked at me. Like I was like, enough. I bet. It's like everyone could not believe that I could do this. So I feel like Brandi was the first person

to believe that I could do it and be like, okay, now we go and record this because it's good. That was the change, I think. Yeah, you really needed that. You really needed to be taken away from our- Shock. Anxiety and shock into Brandy's just vibe. That night at the troubadour, you and Mandy, the whole time,

they would come up to me before I was about to go on stage for the first time ever and be like, Oh my God, are you freaking out? We're freaking out. We can't believe you're doing this. We can't believe it. And I was like, I was like, okay, I wasn't nervous, but now I'm like, now I'm like, wait, maybe I should be more shocked at myself. That's how cool your job is though. Like you have a job and a skill and ability that's so cool other people cannot even fathom it, you know?

It's not something everybody can do. And not only that, it's not even something everybody can understand. It's so unique. And your ability to do it consistently is so unique to you. And you and I have that in common. I remember being young and wanting

so badly to be taken seriously to the point where I would only have older friends. I dropped out of school. My manager said to me recently, she realized that she had footage of me in the 90s as like a 16 or 17 year old on stage in a contest that she just found because she ran the contest and didn't realize it was me and we had this huge moment and she's like, do you want to see the video? And I was like, no, I don't want anyone else ever to either. You know, I'm in my forties and can't reconcile my need to be taken seriously.

And I'm raising a child like that too. Yes, you are. So we just have this in common where we're like, everybody calm down and believe in me. I'm a captain. I've got this, you know? And I really see that in you. And I know that, yeah, you don't want encouragement in the form of enthusiasm. You want encouragement in the form of allyship, maybe.

Wow. What is your goal? What do you want? I feel like I answer this different every time, but I always answer it most honestly when Brandi's there, because I feel like she validates me in it. But I think I just want to do music with the rest of my life and be able to do it in a very sustainable way and create a community around me, which is my wholesome answer to it.

But I also would really like to win a Grammy or sell out an arena. That's what I really want. So I think there's two sides of that answer. Do you ever like picture it? Do you ever visualize yourself? Oh yeah, all the time. Like everything's dark and you're standing there

on the stage, the microphones in front of you and there's a spotlight and there's all the dust particles floating in the spotlight. And everyone's silent because they're waiting to hear what you have to say and then you just let the words come out of your mouth. You ever like visualize it? Because I think that's how it happens.

Like you have to start rehearsing your Grammy speech now, and in 20 years, you'll get one. My Grammy speech is rehearsed. I rehearse it all the time. Oh my God, what would you say? Please just tell me something. No, I just really, I get stressed in, like I'll be in bed at night

and dreaming about my Grammy speech, and I'm like, oh my God, I totally forgot to mention my best friend. Like I'm like, I'm like, I'm like pretty stressed about forgetting to mention someone that I like love and care about. Yeah. What's one thing you'd say?

I just think, like I have an order in which I thank people. Like it goes like family and then like Brandi and Catherine, and then everybody else just in like an order, you know? Yeah, cause they're like family. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Brandi?

What is your goal after you've already done all the things? There's nothing else to climb is there? I remember being Tisha's age, and I specifically visualized myself at the troubadour. I would visualize myself on stage at the troubadour with, this is so embarrassing, it's totally dark, there's the club lights and the place is totally packed and it's like they're screaming and I like my head throws back and I'm like, I'm a rock star. Like I scream that into the microphone.

That's good, I like that. It's like a total ego maniac, 16 year old. Like that is the kind of shit I just dreamed it. But I dreamed of like weird other small things too, like record stores full of people there to see me. You couldn't even walk through the aisle because I had my acoustic guitar and I was busking. It's like visualizing scenarios is such a crazy thing because it, I don't know if it does anything cosmically, if it changes your trajectory molecularly or any of that, you know, horse shit all.

All I know is that it makes it seem very possible. It just gets more and more real. The more you see yourself in the places that you wanna be. And I'm not sure that was your question or not, Glen. And I just, I got really excited about what she said. Do you still have those things? Oh yeah. What is something that you're visualizing now?

I just, I can't imagine what is still out there for you. I get really just to see now. Like I've always wanted to like win one of the big four Grammys, like the kind that takes place at night on TV and everything. And I always like picture myself marching up there and like thanking the indigo girls. And just like being clear about who put that road down for me and how I don't think it's fair that you know they're not standing there but not in like a self-righteous way but just in this kind

of like reparative way. Yeah, setting the record straight, yeah. A few things, yeah. So I guess I still think about those kinds of things, which is nearly all that excites me anymore. Hmm. Why do you trust Brandy so much? You have told me some crazy things about like, if a million people tell you that something is bad,

but Brandy Carlile says to you, no, it's good. You will go with that. The other day she said, if Brandy said, you have to do this one thing that's gonna cost you all of the money that you're ever gonna make in your entire life, you'd be like, okay. So like what, why? Because you are a person who your entire life,

you don't trust easily. You keep it very tight. So why? What is it? I don't know. It's so hard to explain. I feel like Brandy has so carefully cultivated her own circle and her own image as an artist and her own music. It feels like everything she does is so thought out and staying true to herself while also being in the best interest of the people that she loves and cares about. I think we also just connect.

We have this mentorship going on, but we're also just buddies. It's like I trust you as one of my friends. So that's part of it. It's also just like, I mean, I'm so lucky to have literal legend as my mentor. How do I not trust her when all she's done has lettered like where she is now? Yeah. I trust you too, man. You know, we need each other.

I need you. You have helped me keep things fresh and keep things in perspective in really, really profound ways. Like for instance, you get to know that you've planted seeds in me that will show themselves in the next music I make, tissue be in the next music I make, because I trust you to and need your energy and perspective. You've given me a lot. I can't wait to show you. Are you writing, you're making music right now? to show you.

Are you writing, you're making music right now? I am kind of getting ready to lean into it. And there's all these little pieces and fragments starting to come together. And you know what I think, because I'm kind of a visualizer, when I'm thinking of a lot Tish, you'll recognize this is the sounds I was making on that Flying V Fender with that amp that we had dialed all

the way up to where it was just all it was doing was feeding back and it was just I got out of control and I had three pairs of headphones on so it didn't make me deaf. And I was just like kind of floating around all the chords and that ambience that's behind a lot of cool moments like long drive and sober. Like I think a lot about that, how I never would have made that sound without you and that that feels like it makes its way into the next things that I make. And the piano, the way that you kind of taught me to translate damage onto piano, that those really open chords and that space that just leaves nothing but room for brutal honesty.

Yeah. That will be coming from Tish when you hear that, you can credit Tish for that. If it's good, if it's not, she'll tell me and I won't release it. You do tell each other the truth. But I don't wanna gloss over how much that meant to me, the things that you said, Tish, thank you. What do you, when you picture your relationship

with Evangeline and Elijah when they're 18, what are you planning and hoping for? What will it look like? I think we've talked about this, you know, you, by the way also, gee, you show up in my songwriting too, as you know, I just wrote that song based on what you and I talked about backstage. I don't know because I'm starting to only now get glimpses of it. Like I have an oldest daughter that is just so special. In fact, I happen to have a photo of her right here.

This is so good. Oh my God. And a younger daughter that's so special too, but that younger daughter doesn't cater to me in the way that my oldest daughter does. She, last night's a great example. We went clam digging, which is very much my thing. I love fishing and crabbing and shrimping and clam digging.

This child pretends to like fish because she wants to do those things with me and she wants me to think she's like a mini-me and we have this thing about it. Watching her try to choke down those clams last night. As funny as it was heartbreaking, but I'm only just starting to see glimpses of who she actually is without me, without being tethered to me. And instead of finding ways to move forward in tandem with Evangeline when she reaches the age that Tish is, I'm trying to seek out guidance from people like you guys about how to move forward in support of her, even in places I don't understand.

Like you guys haven't been telling me I can't get out of the car at soccer practice. I wouldn't know that. I've never seen a soccer practice in my life. Yeah, you know, there's just things like, I hope that my relationship with her is authentic. Let's put it that way. And that she doesn't feel like she still has to choke down

razor clams to gain my... Oh, God. But I think that takes a lot. It wasn't until like this year when my mom and I's relationship actually became like two separate people having a relationship. Like, really? We didn't know we were two separate people. Tell me about it.

Yeah, tell her what happened on the scale. Was there a point? Was there like a turning point? It literally all came from me two separate people. Tell me about it. Yeah, tell her what happened on the scale. Was there a point? Was there like a turning point or something? It literally all came from me arguing over my curfew with her. I didn't have a curfew for a while, because I wasn't like, it wasn't until this year when I really started going out with my friends, because we used to be the same person.

So I used to stay home every single night and be in bed by 8 p.m. and read my book, and then fall asleep. It was perfect. I had it all under control. That sounds exquisite. It was great. And then this year, we just started disagreeing over stuff,

and we had never done it before, and it was so weird to disagree about stuff. I mean, I remember one day you being on the stairs and me saying, I think I have to say to you, this is, I think I have to say to you, you can't go. And she's looking back at me going, she just looked actually confused and she was like, what's happening?

She goes, are we having different opinions? And the next morning, Brandi, I went to her and I said, okay, I think here's what's happening. I think we're doing something called individuating. So we, yes. I think it's good. I think we're supposed to be doing this. We're supposed to be disagreeing. We're supposed to be separating. We're supposed to be getting to that support thing and not pretending that we like clams. And we have to be okay with that. But that happened for 17 years. You don't have to stress about this happening anytime.

Like, I mean, obviously everyone's relationship is different. It goes really fast. But I'm a lot like my mom. I think Eva's a lot like you. So I think it's just like, I don't know, maybe you just take in the time when she pretends to like clams. Cause I feel like I probably pretend to like clams a lot.

If you're giving me permission, then I totally will. We went to the boat show the other day, there were 2,000 boats and her and I just like I probably pretended to like clams a lot. If you're giving me permission, then I totally will. We went to the boat show the other day. There were 2,000 boats and her and I just like, we went on boats together, just me and her. Just she just pretended to be interested in boats for four and a half hours. It's like, I am so enjoying it. And I don't want to feel guilty for enjoying

that she wants to be like me right now, even though she's probably really not. But I super am enjoying it. And also for what it's worth as a triangulation to your moms and also your friend. If I were your mother, I would vote for you to not have a curfew just out of concern for other people's children.

Just knowing that if you were there, other people would make better decisions. And it's true. That's a good point. I would consider like a service to other parents to let Tish stay out so that she can make sure her friends get home okay. Yeah, and like having set rules was just always strange for us because we just talk through everything.

Everything's like, everything's how do we feel what's happening right now? Who are your friends? It always just felt like we should feel it out as opposed to making rigid structures. Do you feel ready? This is something I'm interested in. I was at Bonnaroo on a golf cart with this guy that was working the festival. And he was like, oh yeah,

my 17 year old daughter's here with me. And I'm like, well, where is she? And he's like, oh, she's probably out in the festival making out. And I was like, how can you say that? Like, how are you okay with this? And I had like a three year old at the time. and he goes, you will be, you'll be ready. Things will happen that will make you want them to be out in the festival audience making

out. And I'm like, no, I don't think so. But that's a difference. Like, that's a very, I don't know. I think that there's a difference between like the connection between mother and a daughter. That's dad vibes. And also, that's just like a cliche thing people say is different with

every kid, but I don't buy into the American idea that we're supposed to reach a certain age. And then it's like, I guess our relationship is over or something. No, I don't like that either. I think it's absolutely ridiculous in everything about the living situation, everything about how we transition into, yeah, I think it's insane. That's like a Swestern ideal

that just we for some reason hold on to. Yeah. But I feel like part of our disagreement was me being like, mom, this is horrible. I'm just a baby. I'm only 17, please like pay for my lunch with my friends. But then like, I'd be like, mom, I'm almost 17. Like I can not believe that I have a curfew.

There's that like disagreement that I think I maybe use both sides of. I am an adult. So just buy my ticket to the concert. Like, well, it goes my way. But I want our relationship to keep evolving. And she's always gonna be one of the most important people in my entire life.

And I think it's just a matter of, I mean, honestly, Brandy, like, I'm not supposed to say this too often, my therapist says, because it's too much pressure for her, but I truly channel her as somebody that I'm trying to be more like. I can see, I could see that, I do too, actually. Yeah, in terms of never changing herself,

in terms of staying steady, like, when I was like frantically texting Catherine, while you guys were in the studio together, to ask her if she'd heard anything about what was going. And, Kath told me, you know, Brandy said something about, she's just, no matter what happens, she stays at her own beat, or something.

If something musical, like she keeps singing. And musically. Yeah. To my dismay sometimes. Same. Cant' Ryle could not rile you, you know? I remember being a kid and when I was young and doing music, I was really influenced by whoever was listening.

If they were excited, I'd play faster and sing louder. And there are good things about that because I'm an entertainer. And actually, I don't know if that's your path tish if you're gonna be an entertainer or Like Joanie like a poet a writer like an immovable force She you know you aren't a moveable force Is that more your path you think you ever think you're gonna be like jumping around on stage throwing up the goat horns and screaming

I'm a rock star and stuff I feel like I think the most special thing about concerts that I go to are like the opening, like the like bass and like you like feel in your chest. Like we talk about this. I know that feeling, it can make you cry. My like future tour intro is like what I imagine the most, like me coming out on stage at first.

So I feel like, I don't know. I think like my love for concerts and the amount of concerts that I try to go to and like every time there's a concert and I'm not there, then I feel horrible. But then if I'm at the concert, I also feel horrible because I'm not on stage. That makes me think maybe like a mixture of the entertainer and the poet. Hopefully I can just be both. I love your preoccupation with intros and outros. Yeah, it is. I think that's super indicative of the kind of 360 artist that you are. And also, I saw you witness a great intro when we went to Seaboy Genius. Their intros are epic. I cry every time. Right down from the land acknowledgement to the walk-in music of the boys are back in town, to them being offstage on the side

and singing that first track, you're right. You have to make an entrance and you have to make an exit. And sometimes that's all the entertainment a show needs. The rest of it can just be bearing one's soul. Yeah, because also I think the pressure of being a young artist is that for me, everything right now feels like an introduction or like a first impression.

I think that's why I play so much emphasis on it. Cause most of the time when I'm playing live somewhere, when I'm releasing music, it'll be the first time someone hears me or hears of me. And so that's why I really wanna like start with something that sounds important. So I want people to remember how I'm starting, but then also I wanna leave them with something.

So like the intros and outros, like the emphasis that I'm placing on them, I think that's where the importance comes from, especially now. I could see, you have to obviously keep working, but I could really see you transitioning now into a band because I've seen two times of performing with you and I've performed with you a few times.

Two times where just like your face, doesn't matter how steady you are, I see this total transcendence happen. One of them was when we did sober, I know you were probably nervous and like, maybe you felt like a bit out of body, but at the moment I could tell there was something in your brain going, this is how I hear it.

It's happening how I want it to sound. And also when we were at Girls Just on Weekend and we did Heaven and the Place on Earth, you love being in front of a band. You like it, your face just goes weird. So I think it could be really cool. And when you do that, if you grant me the privilege, I would love to be a part of helping you

with the intro and the outro. Just ambiance of it all, you know, creating suspense. And then obviously release at the end. What do you wanna say last Tish Melton? Do you wanna say anything else? Love you, Brandy. I love you too, Tish. I'm so, so thrilled for people to hear when we're older.

It's needed. It's just needed. That's all I can really say. It's needed, it's just needed. That's all I can really say about it. I think it's needed too. Your words and what you made, that's needed. Yeah, I think there's a couple of anthemi type songs that are gonna, I think Sober is gonna just crush people. Brandy, thanks for who you are in the world.

Thanks for being my little girl's hero and friend. It feels to me like you're a creator and so you don't always just wanna hear me gush about my gratitude to you. We've talked about it. Like if I could just dial it down a little bit, that might be good. But I truly believe that of all of the artists,

all of the writers, all of the people that I have met and worked with and known my entire career and life, that you are the most prolific in a million different ways and culture shifting, community exploding, life changer of other people, you and Kath, like together. I just, what you all do with your lives, I think is the most inspiring thing I've ever seen.

And I get to say this to you because this is my podcast. Okay. I really deeply appreciate it. And I think anybody listening knows how much that means to me coming from somebody like you. Cause you could probably turn all that right back around, even though that's not what I'm asking. We love you.

I love you both so much. You guys are my family and Tish, you're just a beast, man. I can't wait. I'm not ready. Hug the girls for us. I will do. I love you both. And write a song about pretending to like fish and clams and boats.

Okay. That's really good. Really n like fish and clams in boats. Okay. That's really good. Really nautical. Yeah, you're right. Just pick one. You can switch the metaphor. Just make it a different metaphor. Pod Squad, we love you.

Please go stream When We're Older by Tish Melton. You won't regret it. I think these songs are going to speak to all of us. I know they do me. Brandy, we love you. And we will see you back here next time. Bye. ["Sing to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll

never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreaks On map, a final destination That we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring

We can do a hard pain I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak We're at the end of the road. We're at the end of the road. We're at the end of the road. We're at the end of the road.

We're at the end of the road. So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things. This world ventures and heartbreaks are back We might get lost but we're okay now We've stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things you