We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 288. Alanis Morissette On Highly Sensitive People & Empaths

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

Music legend Alanis Morissette (!) is here to discuss her life as a Highly Sensitive Person and why HSPs so often turn to addiction. Alanis shares strategies for managing the flood of emotions and information that she experiences as a life-long empath. The normalization of under communication and the impact of being a child of the "white knuckle generation”; Addiction as a means of self regulating – and how to recognize dysregulation and find healthier coping mechanisms; and The beauty of getting older and finally recovering the person you were always meant to be. About Alanis:  Alanis Morissette is one of the most influential singer-songwriter-musicians and artists. Her deeply expressive music and performances have earned multiple awards – including 7 Grammy® Awards. She has sold over 75 million albums worldwide and was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame and The Canadian Songwriter Hall of Fame.  Her debut album JAGGED LITTLE PILL, was followed by nine more eclectic and critically acclaimed albums. Her artistic impact can also be seen via the two-time Tony Award winning “Jagged Little Pill, the Musical,” which continues to tour globally.  Alanis is also a dedicated supporter and student of spiritual, psychological, and physical wholeness which includes addiction and trauma recovery, female empowerment, and the advancement of a more “whole” approach to children’s education. Her podcast “Conversation with Alanis Morissette,” features conversations covering a wide range of psychosocial topics extending from spirituality to developmentalism to art.   TW: @Alanis IG: @alanis To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine. I had no choice but to hear you. You stayed in your case, time and again. I thought about it. You already won me over, in spite of me. And don't be alarmed if I fall. Head over feet. And don't be surprised if I love you for all that you are.

I couldn't help it. It's all your fault. We did not plan that. Honestly, I think there are like two musicians in the world that I remember the songs to and Alanis is one of them. Okay. Now, since no one is listening anymore and everyone has turned off our podcasts. I mean for sure we're cutting that but fine. I don't think we are. I do not think we are.

I'm so embarrassed. Today, when we can do hard things, we have the Alanis Morissette. Alanis Morissette is one of the most influential singer-songwriter musicians and artists in the world. Her deeply expressive music and performances have earned multiple awards, including seven Grammy awards, and she has sold over 75 million albums worldwide and was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame and the Canadian Songwriter Hall of Fame. Her debut album, Jagged Little Pill, was followed by nine more

eclectic and critically acclaimed albums. Her artistic impact can also be seen via the two-time Tony Award-winning, Jagged Little Pill the Musical, which our family has seen twice or thrice. I've seen twice. I think I've seen it thrice. No, I've seen it once. You saw it in New York and then you saw it here. Which continues to tour globally. This summer, Alanis will be on the triple moon tour.

So exciting with special guests, Joan Jett. That's why I hate myself for loving you. Such a disservice we're doing them. And Morgan Wade. Joan Jett and the Blackhearts. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Joan Jett and me. And Morgan Wade.

And the Blackhearts and Morgan Wade. And Glennon. Get more info at Alanis.com slash events. Hello, sweet Alanis. How are you? You too. Hi. Hi.

Oh my God, I'm so excited to finally meet you. How are you? So nice to see you both. I'm really well, actually. Oh, good. I can safely say, how are you? Good, I think we're well-ish too. Do you think?

We're very well, yeah. I think we're well-ish. Well-ish. Yeah, yeah. And I'm feeling well-ish. Yeah, yeah. And I'm feeling well-ish-er than usual because, first of all, we've been huge fans just for absolutely ever, like the rest of the world. Not just of the music of everything,

of the meditation album, of the musical. We've seen it twice with our family. Oh, wow. But, beside all of that, I have to tell you that I, in preparation for this interview, I started... Rabbit-holing. She went down.

I'm sorry, and you're welcome. Yes. I feel like I've been on your path of healing, and I kind of thought you were like an incredible student of people in the world. And then you turned into this teacher, and I just, I feel like you have done so much work down, so many rabbit holes of your own. Yes. That I have a simple goal for this next 50 minutes with you,

which is to synthesize the human experience. No, no pressure. That's very kind. And I think pithifying is a thing, right? Yeah. My main intention behind it though is that not everybody wants to read as much as some of us do, as biblio peeps. But we're all experiencing the human condition, which includes despair and suffering. So if there can be some alleviating of that through distilling and just taking

all the knowledge and the millions of models and having created some of my own over the last while. It's a service, you know, just showing up and you do it every day, you too. It's an ethos, it's an orientation, it's a worldview. I think of us as filters, you know, there's the course of the animating force that runs through all of us. And I think it varying speeds. Some of us, it's coursing through really quickly, and we have to be semi-responsible for that. And then some of us, it moves more slowly. So in my case, it definitely moves quickly.

And I just have to be aware of that and take responsibility for it process enough, you know have enough people around me to process with bandy things about with mm-hmm Yeah, God bless community if there is a Community of highly sensitive people They are our people like everyone listening right now, right? Yeah, so good. If you have lasted this long with this podcast, you are likely. People ask, who comes to your shows? Who are my people? And it sounds like there's an overlap

in temperament, proclivity, how our brains were highly sensitive, a lot of empaths. So 20 or 30% are highly sensitive. Of that 20, 30%, 4% statistically are empaths as well. I did not know that. Can you talk to us about that whole thing you just said? Like what is a highly sensitive person? What was your life like before you knew

that's what you were? And just take us down this road for people who don't know what this is. Yeah, so I always felt something was wrong with me. We live in a world that basically praises, as you both know already, praises extraversion, basically. And I would look at these people who seem to let everything slide off their back, you know, I just think,

what do they have? What do they know that I don't? Because I feel everything so intensely. And I've now been able to sort of organize it a little bit in categories, like there's the macro sense of what's happening in the world that is felt in my body and those of us who are empaths. There's the immediate microcosmic interaction with spouse, family, friends, colleagues. And then

there's this whole energetic in here, all these parts that, you know, they want my attention. So, yeah, just kind of fielding all of that and then realizing, you know, there's people like Rose Rose Tree, there's some beautiful books that are being written about being an empath now. And the distinctions weren't really clear for a while because I think in the neurobiology communities, the psychotherapy community, they poo poo temperament. They didn't even want to bring it in to any conversations.

And I kept going, but how could it not be taken into consideration with education for kids, with programs for adults? How could it not be taken into consideration? It's a big part of the epicenter of our filter. So I think it's becoming more normalized now. And I've even heard in television shows, people say, well, I'm an HSP.

So yeah, I'm a four on the Enneagram. Same. All the self-knowledge tools that are out there in the world, I think they're so powerful for us to embrace. Not just for entertainment, although it can be wildly entertaining and hilarious. But for the self-knowledge that we

know where to put ourselves, we know how to live our purpose in a way that is sustainable for our bodies and our well-being. Although I'm careful with the use of well-being these days because it can be another term that we use to beat ourselves up. So I think about wholeness. I'm on the wholeness journey. I'm not on the wellness journey.

Although sometimes it looks like a wellness journey. The perfectionism comes in and wants to just co-opt the whole wellness journey sometimes. So I'm like, let's maybe not use that word. Yeah, it sure does. Yeah. Okay. So the, you just thought something was wrong with you. And then did you find a book about being an HSP?

Was it Elaine Arons? Did she sweep into your life and say, okay, here's the four characteristics of a highly sensitive person. And you were like, oh, I'm not that bad. You had me at the acronym. Someone gave me the book, the highly sensitive person. And you were like, oh, I'm not going to die. You had me at the acronym. Someone gave me the book, the highly sensitive person book. And when I first got it, I was seeing still through the lens of patriarchy and extraversion, centricity.

And I didn't actually want to read it. And then a few years later, there it was. And I read it in its entirety, and I was just weeping the whole way through at a recognition and just thought, oh, this explains a lot. Then I just talked about rabbit holes. I just wanted to go more deeply and deeply and deeply. And a lot of times I would think, well, I'm an extrovert because I love humans. I love conversations. I love listening. And I've come to see that introverts and highly sensitive and empaths,

we light up when we're around like-minded. When we're not around like-minded, we can often be paused to check or just more observing, more what sort of people watching. So it depends on context as always. So for those listening, the four characteristics of a highly sensitive person are the depth of processing, which means when Abby and I walk into a room and then we leave.

And I'm like, do you not notice the 12,000 things that just happened in that room and she's okay. Abby, are you a non HSB? Do you identify as non HSB? I do. Yeah. But I'm married to an HSB. So that, that has been, that, I mean, but it's like,

I think that that's really important for this conversation is because there's so many people listening, you may be an HSP and you may not, or you might be married to one, or you might have a child who is an HSP. This is so important because this helps me be a better partner. Yeah.

Oh, beautiful. And Elaine talks about, you know, the pros and cons of all couplings, and she's married to a non-HSP. So, and I'm married to a non-HSP. She actually mentioned, I think, in the highly sensitive book that the, or maybe the highly sensitive person in love. She mentioned that the highest level of satisfaction, all in quotes, is two HSPs. But my running joke about that is

that two HSPs will never leave the house. Get out of their cozy clothes, or they won't stop ruminating. It's like, good luck getting out of the house with two HSPs. I can think of worse problems, by the way. I mean, I think an HSP with a non-HSP and a lesbian marriage, that might be like the middle ground. Yeah. Because you're both what?

Woman bodies? We're pop processors. We like these kind of word. You're thinking women. Yes. Yeah. We say it's not enough to understand each other. We have to overstand each other.

Yeah. We have to like. Well, when people say over communicating or overstay, I always just think, oh, you mean communicating. Yeah. Yes. We've normalized under communicating so much. But the idea too of HSP, non HSP, I think of examples like if my husband and I are going to

pick up food somewhere, you know, it's implied that he's going to go in and get the food with tons of people. I'm going to wait in the car. I mean, it's implied that because you were mentioning a second ago, Glennon. So a non highly sensitive, not to say insensitive, no, a non-highly sensitive temperament person will walk into a room and get 50 pieces of information. A highly sensitive person will walk into a room, especially if their empath compounded, will walk into a room and get 500 pieces of information. So it goes without saying the

acronym that you started laying out, that we can get flooded more easily, more quickly. And it's not that we're overly fragile, although I love fragility. It's that there's so much information, and I actually have sought a lot of help around how do I calibrate the incoming influx of non-stop stimulation. And I even share it with my kids who are all HSBs. I share with them when they feel flooded and I'm noticing it, I just go, wow, it's a lot of information, huh? Because it's sensual information, it's auditory, visual.

There's a lot of Claire element that can come into MPASS. Like, you know, my kids hear people a block away, you know? And so really going into the senses a lot is a big deal. In America, we focus on academia, intellectualism, and we focus on action. We don't always focus on the senses and we don't always focus on the feelings,

especially the angry, sad, scared. Those three just get such a bad rep. They're gorgeous. They move worlds. Yeah. One of the interesting things to me is that when we wonder why, why is this, that 20% of people are like this. And then we find out that historically, the highly sensitive person's job was to pay such close attention that they would help the community avoid tragedy. Everything? Yeah. Right.

Can you talk to us? Cause I actually don't know at all the difference between we've got 20% that's highly sensitive. I'm staying almost 30 now. I think a lot of us are coming out of the door. We're coming out of the closet. Then how do you know if you're an empath within the HSP?

Are all empaths HSP's? All empaths are HSP's, not all HSP's are empaths. Right. OK, so how do you know if you're an empath? It's a pretty good chance you know because of the level of somatic overtaking. Like, I am somatically overcome when I see animals, when I feel a room that is unaddressed trauma. And so much of this is none of my business,

right? So for me, the maturation process is about tuning into something. And I come up with tricks. Rose Rose Tree, she's sort of one of the OG empath women. She's got all kinds of cool tricks about some of it is just, it looks like straight how to not be codependent, you know, but really, it's how to be an empath and navigate so that it's a sustainable way of living where you can notice but not be debilitated physically by it. For me, it's the begged question that can really elucidate it for me is who's is this? So now we know we got our generational trauma and we've got our current traumas. We've got our planetary traumas and so for me when I'm feeling debilitated or I feel depression or a

Rage I can't explain often. I'll the first question that I start with is who's is this? Is this my mom's? Yeah, my husband's is this? Is this my mom's? Is this my husband's? Is this the school's? And then just sort of rendering distinct what's going on helps. And then also that I notice. So a lot of ways that you can tell that you're in an empath merge, it's actually called an unskilled empath merge. And I was in it all the time where I would see someone and I would almost like teleport into their experience to the point where I'd get home at night and I was in it all the time where I would see someone and I would almost like teleport into their experience to the point where I'd get home at night and I couldn't even move. One example to kind of get out of that mode is to close your eyes because staring is an indication. So Abby if you see Glennon super staring,

a little snip snip like hey what's going on how are we doing? How do you hey, what's going on? How are you doing? How do you feel? What's going on in your body? You know, the orientation helps visually. What's happening in the body? What do I notice? Oh, I notice I'm hungry. I notice that I'm itchy on my shoulder.

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Join HodaCoffee for a brand new season of her podcast, Making Space. For season five, I am making space to talk to people who are providing a sense of hope and inspiration when life changes course. Uplifting conversations with inspiring individuals like NFL legend Drew Brees, singer-songwriter Ziggy Marley, and today's show co-anchor Savannah Guthrie, as you have never heard her before. I found faith more viscerally, not because the bad thing didn't happen, but because it did.

I promise you, like me, believe these conversations with some wisdom for your own journey. Empowered and inspired to make space in your own life. New episodes of Making Space with Hoda Kothby are released every Wednesday. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Is it an empath thing to actually get physically sick about anything like it? Yes. You go down hard when something, especially in the world macro, as you talk about, when the stuff goes off in the world macro wise, Glennon will be in bed for three days. Yeah.

Or you're faking when you're out of bed because you really want to be in bed. And you can imagine for all of you love bugs right now, who, and we're going to get into this more this season HSPs don't worry and paths all of this But you can imagine if you're a kid who's an HSP and you don't know you're freaking HSP And you don't know this is a whole way of being and you all you know is you are constantly overstimulated You think something's wrong with you. You are always Disregulated you're looking for comfort and to self-soothe this way of being that no one understands.

But we make great addicts. What might you become? Yeah. An addict of everything. We're seeking relief from the onslaught of incoming information. Talk to us about your experience with this, because it's not a coincidence that so many of us

who start out with just these tender, big, wide-open hearts and eyes, I have so many addict friends. I mean, I'm an artist and activist, so all my friends are addicts. And like, they all, they get to the point where there are families and their friends, everybody finds them so insensitive because they're behaving badly.

Yeah. But when you're flooded, you're not at your best. Yeah, but you start out as the most sensitive. Well, self-absorption can really kind of steal all the pros of our temperaments and everything, right? And self-absorption is the great metaphor that I think of is when someone steps on your toe and it really hurts, we're animals. Our first instinct isn't to go, are you okay, person who stepped on your toe and it really hurts. We're animals, our first instinct isn't to go,

are you okay, person who stepped on my toe? Our immediate instinct, animalistically, is ah, fuck, ow, right, get off me. And then, oh my God, you know, so our self-absorption is from being in pain and it not having been addressed. And for me, one of my questions to my therapist and people I work with is,

with all this incoming information, I've had a really hard time feeling like I catch up to real time because there seems to be this unaddressed energies over here, the future vision of what's possible, the macrocosmic felt sense of what's happening in the world, the immediate stuff with my relationships, it's too much. And I just think, is there an end to this? And one of the sweet pieces of information I got just this week is that when one part is dialogued with and there's

some healing happening, it affects all these other parts too, because they often come in clusters. So these parts, they're in pain, there's some wisdom they have for us if we have that interiority muscle to dialogue with them. It's basically the ability to kind of create space, because I just kept thinking, is there going to be an arrival point where I'm not flooded, where I don't feel like I have to catch up? And the answer is, no, if I'm going with amounts of parts

that want my attention, no, because I want to be in the world, I'm going to be exposed to all the incoming pieces of information. It's about organizing it. So I'm in this mode of attempting to organize it internally, because if I am aware of all the energies, I'm just flooded and I kind of shut down. So to put even categorically, like, I I'm gonna put these energies in the past, I'll still deal with them, but they're in the past, they're over here, there's some like disidentification,

some stepping away, some space gotten, rather than being completely blended and overtaken by it. And then there's the stuff from the future. And then in the present, there's this real stillness and spaciousness that allows me to function and not wait for both of these to be cleared up so that I can start living if that makes any sense. It does.

And you're talking a lot about like internal family systems. It sounds like you're talking about the parts. We talk a lot about that on this podcast. And actually I was just talking with my therapist the other day about it. And she said something really beautiful to me She said so what we're trying to do in This work Abby is to turn the volume down on some of the parts of you that have been screaming and that have been serving you

So I love that visual like just to turn that like the volume down But that's interesting that you talked about your parts as a past and in future Yeah, because I'm trying to organize it in some way. IFS isn't necessarily about relegating, it's about dialoguing and embracing, and Debbie Ford whom I was very close with for a long time before she passed. It was, you know, for her, it was about connecting with what piece of wisdom do you have for me? What action can I take on your behalf? What do you need? Is there anything else? And so it was a great trailhead to use an IFS term, a great trailhead in to loving these parts. They're trying to protect, they're trying to seek relief, they're trying to manage the unmanageable, trying to keep everything in homeostasis.

So even the ones that are super violent and cruel in there, they're doing it for a reason. So if we can get to that nucleus, it can shift and make it a little more friendly in here. And I used to just view these cruel voices as that's just part of being a human being. But when I've moved toward them by dialoguing with them in journaling or whatever it is. There's a deep wisdom in there and such goodwill. These parts are just doing their best to keep it together for all of us. They're trying to make this system manageable. And sometimes they're doing it, as you said, a little wildly high volume.

And Neil Donnell Walsh used to say that too in the 90s. He'd be like, I have this incredible you know, I have this incredible quality, but when it's on 11, everyone hates me. When it's on eight, everyone likes me. Yeah. Just like, nice. Well, and you can't turn the volume down on them until they're heard.

Like they can't, you can't turn the volume down on them. I mean, and if you're listening and you're like, what the fuck are they talking about? It's like you have these parts and just very quickly and horribly. If you're listening to this podcast, you know that I had a part of me that did not want me to eat that my NRX itself that I'm in just a year into recovery for now. Nice. Thank you. And well, also 35 years. This is the freshest version. okay? This is the new- The current iteration of-

And so you wonder like, what is this part doing? Like why is it telling me not to eat? Why, why, why, why? Turn it down, turn it down, turn it down. No, six months in, it's saying, Glennon, your house wasn't a safe place to indulge your appetite. Nourish. Yeah, like you, I was keeping a small and safe.

Like that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to keep you small and safe. Like I'm a good, I'm protecting you. And so it's like you have these parts that did their best job, actually did a really good job. Like amazing job. You survived. Amazing job.

Like, oh my God. Good, like well done. Thank you. Like now we're. Oh my God. Good work. Well done. Thank you. Yeah. Now we're in a different place with different rules. The rules here are no longer that we can't grow. So we have to slowly encourage this little precious protector to take some risks now or

relax a little bit, but not until, Elenice, I spent six months, and Abby knows this, just walking by myself. It was just a gentle walk. I was calling it an exile walk, and I had to like hear these voices. Like I had to hear, let these voices rise and talk that were trying to protect me. So these are the parts, they're all good,

there's no bad parts. They just might be malad-adjusted now. That's a good way of setting. Okay. Can you talk to us though? Because we have so many, the Venn diagram of sensitive humans and people who are in addiction or are recovering from addiction. When you talk about the human condition, we are sensitive.

We are overstimulated. We are noticing everything and we want to turn the human condition. We are sensitive, we are overstimulated, we are noticing everything, and we want to turn the volume down. So we find, talk about protectors, talk about things that we grab. Oh yeah. The managers are very, very crafty. Yeah. In the best way. They'll find ways to create relief. There's so many beautiful words for managers. And I call them relief seeking creatures. Basically, when what is relief? Regulation.

Right. Exactly. Anything that puts the eye on the prize of regulation, co-regulation, regulating as adults, doing it with our kids, doing it with our puppies, doing it with our parts. How did you feel when you were dysregulated? I want to talk about what we go towards when we are doing our best to regulate, but we

don't have all these skills yet. Because there's a lot of people out there who are grabbing the booze, filling the carts, doing the, who are just love bugs, trying to regulate their nervous systems. How do you feel when you're dysregulated and talk to us about your addiction journey? Well, the best thing about drugs, alcohol, shopping, work addiction, love addiction, love addiction is gnarly. Withdrawal is gnarly. Is that it feels really, really good for the first 20

minutes, and then it kills you dead. So for me, those 20 minutes were such relief that I didn't care about dying until it became apparent. And I was like, oh, I have to stick around. Same. Yeah. I wanna actually be, I'd like to live to 127 now, whereas in the past I didn't even care. So, but in terms of the relief that it offers, it really does.

I mean, alcohol, as Byron Katie says, alcohol does its job. It's a neutral thing, you know, shopping, fashion, beauty, glamorizing, all of it. It's all neutral in and of itself and how we use it becomes the more pointed relief seeking measure. And it does, it offers relief for the first little bit

and then it ruins your life and ruins your relationships. So when my eye goes on relief seeking measures that is more relational, you know, and some would say, well, Tequila is relational, I'm my best self. No, you're turning into an extrovert. I mean, a lot of times I would drink Tequila so that I could be another temperament.

And I miss her sometimes because I don't drink anymore, but I'm like, oh, she was fun. Yeah. Yeah. But we'll find other ways to be fun. The definition of fun changes as we get older. That's right. But basically we get into a mode. We're chasing dopamine. We're chasing oxytocin. We're chasing serotonin.

We're chasing the feel good because there it isocin. We're chasing serotonin. We're chasing the feel-good because there it is a birthright for us to have some semblance of joy in our bodies, you know, so so we're chasing it understandably But these external means of satisfying something that can't be Satisfied through external means, it's just a temporary blip. But we get a glimpse of it. We get a glimpse of what it feels like to feel joy or to have the serotonin go up. So some of us who are empaths and HSP's also have a tendency to be depressed and anxious because we're not only exposed to all these energies, but there is

a sensitivity to how the amygdala works in our brains, in our biochemistry and physiology. I often use the metaphor that I'm a shaky poodle inside a black stallion body. And they're constantly pedal break, pedal break, because I have the high novelty seeking, I wanna jump off that cliff, I wanna paraglide, I have motorcycles, let's do this. And then also this part that's like, tremoring and shaking after I ride my motorcycle, where I have to calm down for 45 minutes.

So- Well, I'm a shaky poodle inside of a shaky poodle. Uh-huh. I like, I always wanna hold you and regulate. Come regulate. I'm the outside of poodle and on the inside of poodle. Inside poodle. Well, that makes it really easy.

No one misunderstands you, and says, no cliff diving. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting though, because you do have that, I mean, my God, how do you be that bad ass? Sweaty. I mean, my God, how do you be that dichotomy, that badass, sweaty, Alanis Morissette on stage, and then you're a shaky poodle. You know, they're in line with the inquiry and lifelong inquiry.

And there's some Gemini stuff going on. There's some four on the Enneagram thing where I just, I love variety, I love newness, I novelty seek all the time. Yeah, but then the poodle part needs the constancy, predictability, commitment, you know, in my case, monogamy. Like there's certain things that create safety for this. And so it's up to me to make sure that I carve that out

in my life to the degree that it can be done. What's the hardest part about being you and parenting? The first thing that popped to my mind was how protective I am because there's so many considerations about being in the public eye that I have to take into account and that are just so normalized for me now. Whereas I see my kids processing certain things and my eldest son will say, you know, mom, in some ways it's cool to be your son and in other ways it's just terrible.

And I say, yeah, that's true. And I'm so sorry for the times where you're othered because of me, you know. But then there's pros too, you know, there's people who come talk to you who ordinarily might not. So, but for him to navigate it at a young age is really, it breaks my heart a little bit because these are sophisticated considerations.

The idea of fame and the effect it has on your life, that's an adult process. So for kids to be subject to it, I just leave the door completely open for them to vent or say, well, that's cool, you know, or, you know, we'll be on the road and they don't want to come to the show and people around us will be like, they just kind of skip shows. I'm like, yes, this is very normal. Yes, for God's sake. Of course they skip shows.

Yes. And I bet they're different. I mean, we have one who wants nothing to do with anything is very private. And we have another who's like, went to I love my baby. is very private. And we have another who went to- I love my baby. Oh yeah. She went to a soccer game when Abby couldn't go, a national team game, when Abby wasn't there with her friend.

And she held up, she made and held up a huge poster that said, I am Abby Wambach's daughter. So that she could get special attention. So they're different. The kids handle it all differently. But temperamentally, probably quite different. Yes, yes. And there's no right way to do it. differently. But temperamentally, probably quite different. Yes, yes.

And there's no right way to do it. You just have to feel your way through it. Yeah. And just process anything that comes up and stuff comes up. You probably deal with it every day. Yeah. What are your best non-maladaptive strategies now for thriving as a highly sensitive person? I'll just kind of point form it with you. Tons of breaks, any linear,

and that's one of the first things she recommends too, just breaks. And for me, the breaks have to include a door click. There's something about pin drop silence and solitude that is instantly rejuvenative. That's a bit of an introvert thing. The theory being that how we recharge our batteries is solitude and how an extrovert recharges their batteries is through interaction and social interaction. So for me, if I can have breaks

throughout the day where I can take a deep breath and just be quiet, that helps sustainability, body stuff, anything somatic. So my value system is, number one is the triadic connection. So connection with source, other in here, those three. Number two is self triadic connection. So connection with source, other, in here, those three. Number two is self-expression. It could be picking an orange t-shirt, it could be writing an email, it could be writing a chapter, whatever it is. And number three is body, somatic and body-made stuff.

So I've been disassociated most of my life and mired in fantasy. It's been a great survival strategy, also helps art. But to come back in here has been a big deal. And that's one way that I make being an HSP empath work. Like, okay, I can attune proprioceptively to raising my third toe. You know, and I just play with that.

I play with sensation, I play with musculature, the skeleton, all of it, like just being able to use my imagination instead of for fantasy, use it for imagining parts of bodies and muscles that I wanna have, you know, activate this movement. Or so a lot of body stuff has been incredibly helpful, somatic experiencing all of the juicy stuff, silence, recharge moments, processing.

I'm not always around people who are up for processing nonstop all the time, but when I am, it is pure joy. So processing anything, my son and I are both pretty intensely HSBs. And when a movie is finished, we'll sit there obsessively watching the credits while all my non-HSP friends are ready to go. They're like, let's get out of here. So just in moments of just letting myself slow down to move fast is a big one too

because this lifestyle could really have a lot of hurry in it. Yeah, you just said something that really brought something really big to the top for me. And as a something really big to the top for me. And as a non-HSP person who is married to an HSP, I'm often put in positions where I have to take some solitude because Glennon requires it. And what I have realized that maybe I'm not so non-HSP as I thought because the solitude that I take, I'm now choosing to do it for myself.

And the world that we live in, it celebrates extraversion. And noise. And noise. The noise pollution is incessant. And I think it's important for people who might not necessarily relate to all the HSP things. We've said that if you would identify as a non-HSP to give yourself some of that solitude to see in fact, because maybe I'm just like wearing a big ass costume. Because I do feel like I am sensitive, but I don't think that I'm as highly sensitive as you.

I just had that thought and I'm like, what if I've been faking it all these years? Because that's what was affirmed in me and how to become successful in the way that I... Right. Yeah. Yeah, and by the way, there's a lot of HSPs who don't consider themselves to be HSPs because it's not culturally allowed. Right. Yeah. So that could be interesting.

I think that I've learned so much from glennon and the way that she Needs to regulate that even though I don't need to regulate in the same ways I still need to regulate because I still get Disregulated like even if you're if you're not an HSP we're all getting Disregulated every day your kid walks in from school and they tell you a bullying story and like, I'm like, activation, activation. Yeah. So all of these things are still so applicable to even those of us that wouldn't necessarily consider themselves HSPs. I couldn't agree more.

And my husband would be fist bumping you right now because, uh, you still have a nervous system. You're still subject to dysregulation. And so all it really means to me is that HSPs and MPaths, their dysregulation, the felt sense, is so budging and tense. But Abby, what you just said is so true because nervous systems are nervous systems. So one might have a felt sense of hyperintensity to the point where it's debilitating. And another might be super dysregulated on the verge of a panic attack, but they're sort of okay to some degree.

Right. Yeah. You consider yourself a recovering love addict and work addict. And a few others. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But most of them actually.

Most of them. I love that. Yeah. And you've had food and body stuff, right? Yeah. I have a lot of them actually. Most of them, I love that. And you've had food and body stuff, right? I have a lot of them too. And alcohol was hard to beat, but then easier to keep, because it's so easy to just not do it. I mean, after 27 years of sobriety, there are things you can just cut out.

Food, love, work, trickier. How do you manage recovery from love addiction and being married and in love? And how do you handle being a work addict and being such a creatively engaged work? Yes. I can always tell when I've jumped the shark. So I'll be working, clickety clickety, super inspired, and then I can feel where it shifts into like not a full blown mania, but a white knuckle. And so in those moments, I'll pause and go, am I done? I've been working on this for a couple hours. Am I, do I need a break? Am I finished? Versus just forget breaks and work addiction. So Brian Robinson has been huge support. The food conversation,

every time I meet someone with an eating disorder, I always feel like there's the smartest people with regards to nutrients. And it's almost like there's an extra steeliness for those of us looking at food stuff because we have to eat. And you could avoid alcohol, not to downplay how challenging it is

to stop drinking alcohol, but with food, it is part of your day to day. Karen Koenig, a bunch of people who really basically saved my life. But it's an ongoing thing. This isn't like, oh, I worked on my eating disorder for six years, I'm good. You know, it still comes up.

And I can tell with food, with work, I can tell when the camera has a Dutch angle and it starts turning into something that is fear-based, that is hungry, that is angry, as opposed to just inspired. I can feel it in my body. So there's the somatic indication. And then how to be a recovering love addict in relationship.

I mean, there's no better way to recover from love addiction than to be in a relationship where there's enough functionality and enough support from couples therapy or otherwise. I love IFIO, it's basically IFS mixed in. There's enough safety to begin with provided often by a therapist in a triangle that it can be explored in real time versus the pain of love addiction, which is the cycle keeps happening and the abandonment keeps happening. So it's just compounding. You got your past trauma, then you got your current ones because you're repeating the pattern. And Pia Melody just knocks it out of the park with love addiction recovery. I mean, she's just got the seminal model and I've been following it for years and bow down to her because she gets it from

the inside out. And then eating disorder, Richard Schwartz's wife is writing an IFS informed eating disorder recovery book. I can't remember the title right now, but very excited about that because it's its own eating food, anorexia, bulimia, recovery from it, it's its own world. It's hard to describe, and there's some beautiful books out there. I think there's one called Talking to Eating Disorders. There's some books that can really help elucidate what it's like for someone who's on the outside watching someone with an eating disorder, but with postpartum depression, depression in general, love addiction and food addiction,

it's a tough one to articulate unless you've experienced it. I will always try, I'll chase it, I'll try to articulate it, but that one is, if you've been inside of this, there's a knowing empathy. I think that work addiction and love addiction are going to be the next big things that people start to identify in their lives. I think it's going to have a moment because they're like, the things that are so celebrated. The praised addiction, it's called.

Right. Because I think about it too. Like if I were staying up till four in the morning doing crystal math or heroin, everyone would go, oh, we should maybe rally around her and check her out. You know, but if I said, oh, I'm not 19th day in a row working till 4am, I would get probably some high fives. Good work, Alanis. So you're praised and you're dying.

Yeah. You're still dying. And that's another thing that maybe helped you in childhood that maybe now doesn't anymore. Yes, yes. And also depending on our age and how we were influenced culturally and societally at the time.

I mean, the 90s being children of the 70s, that was a white knuckle culture. You feel scared, keep going. You feel tired, keep going. You feel sad, I don't care. It was this very needless, autonomous imperative that we were all indoctrinated with. So we're just taking that off now too. Wait, say more about that. So like this might be say you were raised by a football coach who would say you can rest when you're dead glennon. Okay, okay, okay? So a White knuckle generation so you believe we were raised by a generation where that was the needless oh

Okay, I needless and feminine hating that's still happening. So patriarchy basically is hatred of the feminine. And the feminine is what's gonna bring us all to salvation because we know how to use all these multitasking capacities and come up with solutions. In days of old, they used to go up to women who were premenstrual in the villages and ask her opinion about the system or society because they knew that the woman wouldn't mince words

and she'd bring a profound wisdom, a profound intellect, profound vision that would positively influence the villages that were going to these women for these opinions. That's an example of making the feminine and making our biochemistry and our hormones work for us, as opposed to sort of downplaying and vilifying the female experience, holding it up.

Yeah. And also when you're saying the feminine, you're not just saying women, right? You're saying like the energy that's inside of all of us. What do you mean when you say the feminine? The feminine is all the feminine qualities, feeling, intuiting, visioning, receptivity. So if you're going to channel some profound wisdom, you're in your feminine because you have to listen for it.

Listen and maybe heed. So the action part is the beautiful masculine in all of us, which I live for, empowered masculine. So I think of it in terms of empowered feminine, disempowered feminine, empowered masculine, disempowered masculine. And that's also the term toxic masculinity, all of it. It's a disempowered masculine because an empowered masculine

wants to provide, serve, uphold, protect, care for, offer, generosity. And then the empowered feminine is all of those things plus, you know, basically the empowered feminine is profound leadership taking everyone to account not stopping until there's when when there's no deal to be made here until we're done and I laugh with my family because I really think the power of negotiating in any context is a powerful. It's a very feminine one because the feminine waits until everybody's winning before she moves forward. So the idea, even in our living room of, you know, you want Mexican, you want Italian, you just want to feed a better sandwich. Okay, so let's take that extra three minutes, which can feel like three years for some

of them, to find out what the win-win is, and we always get there. But the feminine leadership is the leadership that takes everyone into account. And those are the leaders I want to follow or be next to. That's right. How is your recovery? Are you a 12-steper? I love 12-step, but I am, I mean,

not unlike religion and psychotherapeutic models, and I just say yes, like how do you feel about this model? Yeah, I'm definitely the toolkit woman. Like everything's in my back pocket, everything I know anyway. And I pull it out. It's just an ongoing journey. I remember asking Gatwarmate, I was like,

does this end, is there a seminal moment where the healing is like check check, and now we party? I think he gave me a couple of different answers, probably depending on the level of humor and our interaction. But I think eventually he said yes. I think what it is, it's not that we don't get dysregulated. It's that we now have ways of managing it. And my spiritual practice and my body practice are inextricably linked. So, you know, things like heat, hot mat, strength training, all of that,

they're all linked in with the spiritual practice. So for me, to the degree that they can all be integrated, that is part of the recovery. And the 12 steps to me is just a profoundly soulful invitation. You know, if you go through every step, it's just a, it's a connective model. Yeah, everybody can use it. So I'm all about that. And what is it that we're recovering? When you're like, when does it end? Because look, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I just know I'm doing something. And it is a lot of fucking work. But like, I'm not sure what I'm doing, but I'm doing something that is, it's working, it's helping. And what are you noticing? Like when you do the work, how do you know it's helping? Like,

what do you see? What is going on around you? Okay. So one of the things that I've been so fascinated with with this past year of eating disorder recovery is that I think what I'm recovering is like the person that I was meant to be. Like who you actually have always been. Who I actually am. Yeah. And by the way, that's the best part of getting older was a woman too. It's like, oh, I'm actually just returning. Just returning to what was always here the whole time and I was chopping it off or I was denying it or I was told to hide it or I was told to have shame around it. You know, it's like just they're all coming home.

Yeah, it just feels like an emerging of and it's something that like if someone said how is your eating going? I could tell you that, you know, this is how much weight I've gained and that's all yay. But it shows up in my relationships. Like it shows up in how I act without thinking, like I'm just different. And can you give me some words? Like there's more space or there's more.

Yeah, I'm calmer. Calmer, so more grounded, yeah. I trust my judgment. I spent my whole. Calmer, so more grounded, yeah. I trust my judgment. Mm, nice. I've spent my whole life being like, oh, I can't possibly know that. I don't know how that works. I don't know how that works.

I don't know how that. I'm creative. So like anything else, I don't, I can't. Right. And now I'm like, I know I'm actually good at things. I actually can understand. You have access. Spreadsheet. I can understand. I can do basic math know I'm actually good at things. I actually can understand that. You have access. Spreadsheet.

I can understand, I can do basic math. I can figure out, like, I can do shit. I'm actually pretty good at it. I got this new piece of technology. You just give me four days, I got this. Yeah, no, all right, slow down. Technology. That's a quick text to somebody.

Suspiciousness, groundiness, calm. Agency. Agency is great, juicy. Yeah, trust, groundedness, calm. Agency. Agency is great, Juicy. Yeah, trust, self-trust. Like, I feel unafraid. I think it's hard to be present in a moment or a day or a relationship if you don't know who you are and don't trust that you've got yourself.

That there's some responsibility, you know, that I can actually respond and that I have access to. And there is some spaciousness, some slowing down so that I can actually tune in to my yes or my no and all those. That, because it's like, I will not go, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going to be friends with anybody. I'm not, I made my life so small because I don't think I understood that I could do whatever I wanted at any moment.

I'll give you an example. I'm gonna go to a get together. Okay, so I'm talking to my friend Liz. She's helped me through my recovery in different ways. I'm gonna go to a thing. She's like, what? I'm like, I'm gonna go. I got invited to a thing and I'm gonna go to it.

Okay, so this is like, it's a big progress. Is that something like you? Yeah, that's like, whoa, okay. And I say to her, so this is like, big progress. Is that something like you? Like whoa, okay. And I say to her, so like, what do I do if I, what if I'm there and I hate it? And she's like, Clinton, you have a driver's license and a credit card.

Like you are not stuck anywhere for the rest of your life. You are never stuck anywhere. Which means like if I can trust myself to decide what I want to do, when I want to do it, how I feel, how I look, then I can try things. If I can trust myself to know that this new person that I'm meeting three days in, I'm actually not digging this person and I'm out of there. That means I can go to coffee the first time. I don't have to cut every experience off before I have it because I can trust myself to make decisions as I go through it.

You'll be able to respond. Yes. It's the ability to respond versus just be triggered, which by the way, triggered is understandable. But I think the degree of healing can also be measured by the lessening of reactivity or the lessening of triggers. It's just informational. Not that there's anything wrong with those, they all make sense. But less trigger, more contemplation, more taking the information and sitting with it. Because the tyranny of immediacy is pretty intense in culture. Like, you know, we need this in 60 seconds.

It's like, really, do you need it in 60 seconds? That too, boundary. I think one of the most impressive things that I've witnessed from the outside is the growing of trust of self that you've been exploring is so unbelievably seen now more in our children. Like this mom is now trusting herself to do shit that she wasn't normally doing,

you know, for the first 10 years of some of their lives. And now the three of them are learning how to look towards themselves to figure shit out. Granted, it's still a work in progress, but I think that it's been one of the most revolutionary things for our children to watch you grow in the trust that you are developing inside of yourself, being of agency and having them watch and witness you do that.

So they're like, oh, I guess I'll do this thing on my own. And it's like just unbelievable to watch. They're like, oh, she's good, we're good. Yes. They're like going to do shit. What they've decided to do in the last year, and it can't be a coincidence. Yeah, one went to Berlin for the summer.

One's going to be a rock star, what could go wrong? The third is like doing her stuff. Anyway, we're going to come see you on tour. It's so exciting. It's so exciting. Before we got on with you, I sang an Elana song. Is that your, is that your warmup? And a Joan Jett song.

So don't worry, we're ready for the tour. We love you. We're going to be listening to everything that you do. Thank you for all of the healing work that you do to like, just like bring it to everybody, bring all of these brilliant things to the world. And you're just, you're just a love. Not just a rock star.

You are so much more than that. And all the work you're doing is just proof. And you do the work and it's totally obvious. And we're just so grateful for all that you've been doing. Thanks Abby and Glen, oh my God. I want to thank you both for just being huge avatars in the world. I just don't feel alone. So just knowing that you two exist in the world and you're doing your profound service

everywhere you show up. Thank you both. It's such an honor to be here chatting with you both. We hope we get to give you a hug some day. Yeah, I love that. And love to you and your beautiful family. Thank you. You too, sending love to you each.

Thank you for having me. Bye-bye, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time, but it won't be with anybody as cool as Aladdin. Ah, you've come back anyway. Come back anyway. Yay. Yay! If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please

follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things Show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review

and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So now, a final destination Yeah, now, they stopped asking directions And some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be normal We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do a hard thing I hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new start a brand new start I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe the best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine

Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So map a final destination, we've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be normal We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a hard day This world ventures and heartbreaks are mad We might get lost but we're okay now Stop asking directions

Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things