We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 36. WRITING & ART: When does your real self get to breathe and be seen?

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

1. How writing is a lifeline for Glennon because it’s the one place her real self can tell the truth. 2. Why Abby feels that her time on the soccer field was art.  3. The unorthodox way Glennon’s writing evolved from hourly 5AM sessions to survive sobriety with three young kids to three New York Times Best Sellers. 4. Why it’s horseshit that books by women authors are indiscriminately labeled “self-help.”

Because we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that. Well, hello. Thank you for coming back to our We Can Do Hard Things Party. We are delighted to host you. How are you doing, Sister and Abby? Good, good, good. I'm doing great. So excited to be here.

Just so excited. Thanks, babe. On this very day, I'm actually feeling good. I'm not just saying I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good today. Wow. I know. What do you attribute this rare occurrence to? We don't, we just don't even ask those kind of questions on days. We just, we just feel grateful for that being nominated. I actually agree with that completely. I feel like my general attitude and feelings are rarely tied to reasons. Right? Or to, um, I would actually totally disagree with both of you. I just think that there are probably things that happen in the last couple of days in your life that have given you the outlook you have today.

And so finding those little bits and trying to recreate them. Like for me, that's just like, that's all I do every single day is just try to recreate. I know that it's probably a good definition for addiction, but like recreate something so I can feel good. Interesting. I dig it. That's good. It's conscious living. Conscious living. What is leading to a better, happier me? Let's do that instead of something else.

That whole revolutionary idea of do more of what makes you feel good. It feels so simple. And every time I see it, I'm like, that is a mind-blowing idea. Yeah. Suspicious. Highly suspicious. Yeah. So speaking, who can go about doing things that make you feel, what the hell kind of lulu nonsense is that? Speaking of woo-woo nonsense, what are we talking about today? So today we are talking about art and creativity and writing and all of it. And the why and the how so many people in our pod squad have asked about writing and about how this all this whole little writing. writing revolution came about for me and all of the different things it's morphed into and what it um not what it does for the world but really what it does for for me in my personal life um so we thought we'd chat about the power of art in the world and in a human

being's life beautiful yeah so why should someone um so in every human's life or just in the artist's life I'm just wondering if this applies to me. Well, I mean, well, I guess first you have to ask like, why the hell art? Like, what is the point? Yes, that's why I was trying to ask. Yeah, you were trying to ask more kindly of what the hell is the point of all this woo-woo art. I mean, so obviously in preparation for this podcast, I've been thinking a lot about what the hell is the point. Why did I start feeling this desperate need to create art?

And I think that it comes down to for me this idea that I have always felt like I had two selves. Okay. That even when I was 10 years old, you know, that I had this like public self, this representative self that had to go out into the world and kind of act appropriate. and have good manners and, you know, represent myself to teachers, to my parents, to the world. But then I had this real self. So it was like the representative self and the real self. And then my real self, and I think this came into such clear focus to me so early because of my bulimia.

It was very clear to me that I had the self that I sent out into the world to school, to do the things. and then I would come home and binge and purge. And so it was very clear just like I had my out in the world self and then I had my bathroom self, my kitchen and bathroom self. Yeah. And that was a completely different self. Mm-hmm. And it made set.

It was like a way to kind of indulge or live into the hunger and humanity of being human. appetite, hunger, all that, while publicly following the rules of girlhood, right? Like, don't be wild. Don't be hungry. Don't be animalistic. So what was clear is that my real self was not fit for public consumption. That's what I understood to be true. And I mean, this idea of two selves, I mean, you know, sister, because you lived it with me

And then, Abby, I've told you so much about this. But on the last podcast, I talked about the moment when I was a senior in high school. And I went into the guidance counselor's office and said, I can't do this life anymore. I need somebody to help me. So I actually did leave high school. I went to a hospital. I stayed there for a while in the hospital. I'll talk about that on another podcast.

that actual experience in there because it was really life-changing and important for me. But then when I came back out of the hospital, I went back to high school. Okay. So it was just like right back into that environment that I was so afraid of. And then the wild thing is that I think a week later after I got back to high school, I was voted leading leader of my senior class. And this is a huge-ass class. Okay, it was like a thousand kids in this class.

Like, everybody sat down at their desk and thought, who is the best leader in this class? And they were like, the girl that just got sent to the mental hospital. That's the one, her. We want to follow her. Okay. And so, and then so I found my side. I've had the sash that said leading leader. I'm driving around on a car and like the homecoming parade, having just been discharged.

And that for me is the pinnacle of the two selves for me. There was the mental hospital self. And then a week later, there was the leading leader, smile, wave to the crowd, self. Right. So and I know that most people have maybe less dramatic versions of the two selves. But I do feel like everyone has them, right? Like you have yourself, okay, you're at a party for people who go to parties. You're at a party.

You have the self that's like on the couch or mingling and talking to people. And then you have the bathroom self where you're staring in the mirror and you're like, okay, what did I just say? Like am I, is this I want to leave? Right. I mean, do you all have two selves? I mean, this sounds a lot like me, a lot like the way that I went through my addiction. It's like I had this shadow self, this self that I didn't really let anybody know about.

And then I have my public self. So I think probably a lot of folks out there who struggle with addiction probably will absolutely understand what you're talking about for sure. Yeah. Or even just in day-to-day relationships where you're like, you're in a relationship and you're thinking in this moment, what a healthy, constructive person would say is X. But what I'm thinking inside my head is a whole different ballgame. But you're not allowed to say what you're thinking.

Right. And some of that is like good call. Because if I said everything that I was thinking, I would have no relationships at all. So there's a thin line. But I think everyone could recognize there's something. This is the internal monologue and drama that you're dealing with internally. And then there's what everyone else can see. Exactly.

It's like when someone asks you, how are you? Like we talked about in the last pot. And what you say is fine, I'm good. And then your other self is thinking, a life is shit. my marriage is suffering. I'm so tired. I'm, like, if you've ever said something that your inner self was not saying,

that's the two selves, right? It's like throughout the day and the you staring at the ceiling at the end of the day. It's the onstage self and the backstage self. And what you just said is kind of where eventually I'll get the art part, which is like it's good. You can't just release that self all the time. but to me it feels of existential importance that that self does get released or not somewhere and somehow. And art is a way to do that.

And explored, right? Like not just release, but to explore it. Yeah. Yeah. Like that self has to come up for air and be seen. That's why art, I mean, how many people who couldn't say the things that they wanted to say to their families or their parents write a novel? or short story with all the rage they've ever had in it. Or a memoir. Right. Or my little kids in school. I mean, when I was teaching, I'll never forget

this little one who was, oh my God, his name was Oscar and he's one of my favorite humans. And we were writing poetry. And all these kids were, of course, writing their fancy stanzas with their rhyming ending. And I love roses and I love noses and all of the things. and this kid got out of red crayon and wrote mad with red crayon on a piece of paper. And I was like, that is art, right? Like, the art is not about showing off. Art is about showing yourself. That inner self that you're not allowed to show.

show anywhere else because all the scripts we have and all of our discomfort with humanity. And whenever you get a glimpse of somebody's insides, which is usually unfancy, right, that's art. It's like allowing that inner self to breathe. So when I got sober, I started going into the recovery rooms, right? And that was, one of my first experiences, except for the mental hospital, where I got to see people actually live out loud, their real self. That's what happens in those circles is it's like the place to breathe for that inner self that people are not allowed to. And so that was extremely comforting to me to have a real live place where you could let your real self breathe. And I, in the end,

And I realized I feel more comfortable with people's inner wild selves than with their representative selves. Like I would just live in these circles if I could. And then I started having all of the children and couldn't leave the house, just felt so overwhelmed and underwhelmed and all the things. And I started freaking out. There was no time for my inner self, right? There was no, that was over.

I was just one role after another all day. And I'm sure many people will be able to relate to that. And then one day I was getting ready to put the babies down for a nap. And I passed my computer. And there was this thing going on on Facebook called the 20 things or 25 things. It was like this little challenge, you know, the challenges that go around the interwebs. And it was like just to write 25 things about yourself. Okay.

and something like tingled in me like oh, I could do that. You know that little tingle of interest of curiosity. And I sat down and I typed out a list of 25 things and I passed post my personal Facebook page and I walked away, put the babies down, did all the vacuuming and all the things that get done every day and nobody ever sees them. And came back to the computer a couple of things. couple hours later and had this very confusing moment where I looked at my computer and I saw that my list from my personal page had been shared like a million gazillion times. And I looked at my email

and I had like a ton of emails. And if you'll remember, sister, I had like four or five voicemails in a row from you. Okay. Which is the moment that my blood went cold because usually when I have a lot of voice mails in a row from you. It's a signal that I've done something weird that like normal humans don't do, right? And so what had happened? And the only way I can describe this is to just tell you, listener, here was my number six. Okay. I'm a recovering food, an alcohol addict, but I still miss booze. In the crazy way, we can miss those who repeatedly beat us and leave us for dead. Just a light little, little casual Facebook 25 things.

Little number six. Here was my friend, here's my friend Lisa's number six. My favorite snack food is hummus. And I was like, oh shit. Like I should have read other people's lists before I did my list. Like this, we were not doing that here. Or not. Like, or not.

Yeah. Or maybe we should have been doing that there, right? Yeah, yeah. So, babe, that's, okay, so I freaked out at first. I had what, you know, Brne Brown calls the vulnerability hangover. I just thought, how do I get this back? Because, of course, number six was like my lightest one, you know. I was easing in.

And but then I started reading these emails from people. Okay? and they were from people who I had known my whole life, but were telling me things that they had never told me before. Things like, I just read your list, my sister's blemick, and I have no idea how to help her. I just read your list, and I'm struggling with depression and have been for years.

You know, I just read your list, and my marriage is just, you know, so difficult, and I have no where to talk to. It was like all of these me-toes, me-toes, me-toes, And it was mind-blowing to me because it was like, oh, I talk to these people all the time, but our representatives are so busy talking to each other that we never show each other our real selves, which means we never bring to each other the real stuff that we were actually meant to talk through and help each other through and feel less alone about. Right? So boring.

It's so boring to stay on script all the time, isn't it? It's so lonely. It's so boring and so lonely. And so it's just in our experience, in my experience, because I too have done this. But my question, honey, is, is it possible to get rid of these two selves and become one? I don't think so because after this epiphany of like, oh my gosh, everyone wants to actually release their real selves, you'll remember Amanda that I had this like, I'm always doing these like mini challenges for myself. So I was like, I am going to just do this.

I'm just going to be my real self. And the only places I went back then were like a playground. So I was at the playground. And I somebody said, how are you? And I started just telling the person, this poor woman. You know, I talked to her about my marriage. I told her, you know, about my eating stuff. And it was just like, I just saw her face.

Like she just was like, oh my God. Like that, how are you is just something we say. Like I'm trying to watch my kid. So like what I'm telling you is that I actually believe that there are places for it. And maybe we need more of it in real life. But when I try to be my real self everywhere, it's just very disruptive to the day. I have noticed. I mean, I would disagree. I think that I think that your real self is perfect everywhere. It's just sometimes you got to know who's going to be receiving, right? And or. or understand that like not everybody's going to receive you your full real self in the ways that is required. I think that that's important too. That's a good point. That's a good point. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge.

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What I learned from that is that writing is a place where I can explore. I can be this real self. I can show my real self to the world. And they can actually see me. And, you know, it's like I heard my friend Holly talking about writing as like this flare we throw up into the air saying, find me, help. I'm here. My people find me, you know, and we look for people's flares and we find our people. That's what it felt a lot like to me.

And then for Christmas that year, my sister came to my house for Christmas and she brought me, right around Christmas time, brought me a laptop, said, you were meant to write. I want you to get up every morning and I want you to write and I want you to use that voice you used in that Facebook list. So I started getting up every morning and writing. And I don't know if you remember, but I started writing and just sending emails to people to my friends. I remember. I remember. Yeah. I would just get up every morning, write all of my thoughts and opinions about everything, and send them to like five of my friends over and over and over again.

Angels. It's angels. Angels, they are. Oh, my God. And then if they didn't write back, babe, because they were, you know, like trying to have a life and at work, I would ping them and just be like, just wanting to know if you had any chance to, you know, read my thoughts. And finally, my precious friend, both of our friends, Joanna, Joanna Cosmetus then, Joanna Edwards now, who's one of my favorite artists in the whole world who actually designed the Love Warrior book jacket. She was one of those lucky, lucky five. And she wrote to me one morning and said, honey, I'm attaching a tutorial about how to start a blog. It's true. Logs are for people who have as many thoughts and opinions and feelings as you do, but want to keep their friends.

Godspeed, we love you, Joanna. Now, it is the truth that, so I started writing on this blog called Mama Staring this is years ago. So my writing career started because my friends didn't want to read my writing. It's a true story. We didn't not want to read your writing, but to have to read it from like 8 to 8 20 every day and then send you a reaction was like a lot of responsibility. It's a job. You had five editors. Did you read it?

Did you read it? Did you read it? Every morning. So bad. I'm embarrassing. It's embarrassing. So I started that blog, Mommestery. It was called Mommestery because I was all am so obsessed with every spiritual tradition.

Right? Back then, my everyday spiritual practice was motherhood. That's how I was, I was in the trenches. That's where I was learning the most about myself, my capacity for caring, my capacity for rage, my exhaustion, like all of it. It was a crucible, early motherhood. So I called it momastery. I promised myself I was going to get up every single day, no matter what was happening. And I would go up at like 5.30 in the morning to this little place. room, tiny playroom that we had upstairs. And I would sit and I would write for an hour. And then I would press post every single day. That was a big part of it too, because you didn't, you made that promise that you were going to just after an hour post it whether you thought it was like good enough or not. And I think that was a big part of how you ended up doing what you were doing because you didn't wait for everything to be perfect. It was just every day you'd just. do it. That's exactly right. Can you be an artist without posting? Because I think that we have that question with Tish. Like sometimes she writes all these songs and won't play them for us or won't let

let us read the songs. And it's like, does art need to be made public to be considered art? I don't know. I think people probably won't like my answer to this question. But my first reaction to that, and I'm sure this is wrong in a million ways. But I feel like for me, me, the people who make art and then don't release it, it feels like purer to me. It's like they're just doing it because they have this self that they want to get out and see for themselves and they're not doing it for anyone else's applause or reaction or it just feels so pure to me. Oh my God, that's how I feel about trips. I feel like when you go. like there is something so sacred to me about traveling and visiting and seeing new things. And I have

this feeling about it, about not posting anything about it on the internet because I feel like then that becomes you're living for that post or you're doing it for the people's response to, oh, you went to that place as opposed to just living it and being it and having that be the end and of itself. I love that. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It's like, I feel that same way. It's like once you give something away, it's so important in so many ways. This is not a black and white thing. Like, it's, it's so important. Art can change people's lives and change the world. And obviously, like, I believe in putting it out there. But there's something that when you keep something to yourself, you just get to keep it. Well, it's also proof to yourself. Well, it's also proof to

yourself that that was an end in and of itself. That like that just that there is value just having produced that not for the consumption of others, but just that was worth it that it got out of you and that you created it, but not that anyone else saw it or understood it or appreciated it. I think that's why Emily Dickinson, reading Emily Dickinson makes me so emotional. It's because I'm like, oh my God, she just is writing this. It just makes me feel, feel when I read her stuff because it's clear to me that she was just trying to get her insides out for her and not for the world's approval or response. Well, and think about her during the time when she was creating that art, how little women were respected.

and especially in I bet the art world still, right? It's hard as a woman to get like any respect. But you did get respect, Glennon, with the don't carpe diem post that went viral. Tell that story. Well, I mean, because that's people always want to know like, how did it get big? I mean, I wrote on the blog, just that,

without a doubt, that is what I was looking for. It's a place to tell the truth, a place where other people, it was like a meeting. It was like turning the my life, my everyday life, the inner webs, the, my life and my home where was so isolated into a meeting because I'd get to say every morning, hi, my name is Glennon. I'm recovering everything. And here are the things.

And then everyone else would go, holy shit. I think that stuff too. I thought I was the only one. And then it's like this process where the deep, dark thing inside of you that you're trying to hide. You get it out in the light. everybody else goes, oh, same. And suddenly you're free from it. It's not dark anymore. You feel lighter. You just, that's what I was looking for. It's like that Muriel, um, Ruth Kaiser poem that what would happen if one woman told the truth about her life, the world would split open. It's like that's,

that that's kind of what happened over there. Yeah. Yes. And it was beautiful. It was, it was what I wanted and needed and and then somebody revamped the blog and added share buttons. I didn't even have share buttons on it for like a year or two. Or maybe longer than a year or two.

It's like five years. Clearly you set the blog up, sweetheart. I know because I had this Joanna's tutorial. She followed Joe's tutorial. She's like, Dear Google. So I wrote for years and years with just no sharing ability. And then somebody came and revamped it and added share buttons. And then the next day after it changed over, I wrote a post called Don't Carpe Diem about raising small children and how people are always telling you to pay attention because it goes by so fast, which is the worst thing we can say to parents of young children because every day feels like a freaking.

millennium when you have small children. So then not only do you feel exhausted, but you feel guilty for not being joyful enough and on and on and on. And so that post, and I remember you and I were on the phone that night, sister, because I was like, what's happening? Why do these numbers keep saying like 40? Yeah, our blog is broken. My blog is broken. Yeah. It just went so crazy viral. And so then all of these agents. And the only agent I had ever had in my life before this moment was a real estate agent. So literary agents started emailing me. And I just did nothing.

I was like, this is too weird. I remember I started forwarding them to you, sister. Mm-hmm. And saying, what am I supposed to do with this? You said, find one that you like and email them back. Find one that you like. So I read one email. There was two women.

I felt like their email was great. I wrote back. I said, what the hell is happening? And what am I supposed to do? They said, you're supposed to pick an agent. I said, how the hell am I supposed to pick an agent? And they said to me, you just need to ask around. And that was the moment where I was like, how in the hell?

Okay, let me tell you where I go. I go to the bus stop. I go to the grocery store. Should I ask around at the bus stop about like what's the best? process of choosing a literary agent. So you and I, Amanda, end up going to New York City a month later to meet these agents and to go on a publishing tour where we go around and meet all of these different publishers in New York City.

Yeah, it was actually two separate trips. First, the agent than the publishing. But I do think it's important to note here that for people who are. aren't as lucky to get an influx of agents trying to get their attention that like three months prior to this, we had printed out every single page of the blog and organized into chapters and like did a letter to a couple of agents to try to get published and was rejected by them. So I think it's important to know that if you get rejects, it is, it is not necessarily because your work is not worthy because, you know, fast forward

a hot minute and they were all trying to get your attention. So, so anyway. Yeah. And then you get to think about those people that rejected you. Just every once in a while, you just get to think about them. It's the best. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? Not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking, I can't keep doing it like this. You're not alone. Strawberry.me is career coaching that helps you get to the real root of your burnout, whether it's workload, boundaries, a tough manager, or feeling disconnected from the work you used

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Strawberry.combe because your career should feel good again. So that, I think that trip to New York, I don't think I'd ever been to New York City. Had I ever been to New York City? I remember walking around with you in the streets. And you just holding my hand and begging me to walk faster and just being like, oh my God. Like what is happening New York City? Why are all these people walking so freaking fast? Like, where is everyone going?

And you just begging me to pay attention and begging me to look at the street. And I had to run in order to walk New York. Yeah, your poor little legs. You weren't made for a place like New York City, babe. No offense. It's just not. It's just not. Incompatible.

Yeah. Incompatible. Just no. Yeah. Nope. Nope. Nope to that. I will say that that weekend in New York before anything had happened, but like we were like, whoa, something's happening.

Nothing from the rest of my career has compares in any way to that time with you in New York. I think we got on a freaking rickshaw. Actually, I still have that video. We're going to play that for the Bod Squad. The Rikshaw, you and me, being like, wait, they have carts that you go through the streets of this chaos in a bike. Well, we couldn't get a cab. We were late for our train back because our meetings went so late and we were going to miss our train back and we couldn't get a cab. And so we had, that was our only choice.

And then we were like, well, it's been a good run, but we die here. Yeah, but it's okay. It's okay. We could die happy. This was so fun. And I was so excited. And I remember we went to a lunch, like a fancy lunch in New York with like some kind of publisher type person. And I just felt like all of New York was for us that day.

And I remember leaving, walking out of the restaurant and the man who was holding the doors looked at us and said, congratulations. And I looked at him and said, thank you. This is a really big day. And we walked away and you said to me, sister, he was, it's because I'm nine months pregnant. Like he was talking to me. Nobody knows what's happening with you in the city. Like so many other more important things are happening in the city. I mean, oh, you're so so freaking cute.

Thank you so much. This town is lovely. I mean, my parents are so excited. We're just really, we're so grateful. It's an honor being nominated. As if every New Yorker got a bulletin that morning in big news today, Glennon Doyle is in New York for a meeting that's important to her personally. Exactly. But yeah.

So that was, you know, people often want to know, like what was what is that process? Like that's what like that weekend was for us. And then we turned the first book was carry on war. Warrior that was a line from Don't Carpe Diem, which became a chapter in the book. And I just spent a lot of time turning the blog posts that people resonated with the most into that first book. I love that book. I love that sweet little book. It feels like, it just feels like your first house you lived in.

You just like love it so much. And then I look back to the way I was talking and that, it's like so strange. you all to have a version of yourself a decade ago out in the world. Like, I want you to think about if, like, your senior picture from high school, like people were walking around looking at it, talking about it. It's like, it feels like this is why Jesus only wrote in the sand, right? It's like so, it can be very crinchy to have this version of yourself that. But it's beautiful.

And it was true. And it was true. So is everyone seen your picture. No. No. Well, not mine, but, you know. Not good. Beautiful in the way of that was a true snapshot of you at the time.

Exactly. When you were in fact doing your best with what you knew. My snapshot. Baby, did you have long hair in your same picture? I had a ponytail and this is, I had my, hand on, my class ring here. I was just like crushed it. For everyone listening, Abby is resting so gently her chin in her chin in her hand in a,

in a very artful and natural post that you can imagine for a single picture. I had this baby blue like cashmere like. It wasn't real cashmere. Casimir like sweater on. Oh my gosh. Good times. All right. So what do you, that was gosh, 12 years ago, 12 years ago, something like that 10 years ago. What would you say is your favorite thing about being a writer since that was the moment that you could actually officially call yourself a writer. Or did you call yourself a writer before that? And what's been your favorite part? My favorite thing about being a writer, which is, I think, the most life-changing aspect of having art in your life in any way. So I remember when our oldest decided that he was going to be a photographer. Okay. So being a photographer just means someone that takes pictures. All right. So I don't think of like being a writer or being a photographer or being a painter as someone who makes a living off of that thing.

It's just someone who does that thing. So anyone who writes is a writer. And to be clear, I know plenty of people who write and do not get paid for it who are who I believe are like true artists. And I know plenty of people who write. and are marketable in a way where they get to make money off of it, who I don't feel come close to these other people in terms of depth and talent. So there's a million things in our world that affect who gets to be paid for their writing. Things like race, things like gender, things like a million different reasons why some people get opportunities to get paid and others don't. And that does not define whether you're an artist or not. I've just seen, I've just seen that being disproven every day.

So when our oldest decided to become a photographer, I just felt so my heart just like exploded because I started to watch him experience his days differently. Okay, because he was always looking for something interesting or beautiful to take a picture. So what was important and life-changing about the decision to be that thing was never the result. Like, honestly, the picture was just like this cool thing at the end of the day that he had. what was amazing was that the way he experienced his world and his day was it changed forever because we seek and you shall find like we find what we're looking for and what I love about being a writer is that I am constantly thinking what is true about this moment what is

beautiful about this thing I'm experiencing my day differently so it's not just about what I do when I come back to the computer. It's about what I'm looking for all day. That makes my life better. It makes my life more interesting. It makes my experience of other people and of the earth and of the entire world just alive. And then there's the other side of that. Every good thing can become shit, right?

Like where sometimes I feel like, wait, Am I even getting to have an experience here because all I'm doing is like seeing everything as potential writing material. And actually this is my wife, not a character. Right? And actually that's just a cactus, not a metaphor. And actually that's just a piece of chicken. Oh my gosh. Our kids would have so much to say in this moment.

They're like, mom, everything doesn't have to be a metaphor. My goodness. they can't take it. Although they're also starting to do it, which is so beautiful. I know. It's so beautiful. I know. They don't see a table as a table anymore either.

The other thing I love about being a writer is that I think one of the reasons I can't stand the two selves is I understand that because of all of our conditioning, when we see someone, we are never really seeing that person. As human beings, it is our nature to prejudge everything. And so when we see someone, our experience of them is always skewed immediately. Right? They're no fault of our own, just the way the human beings are made. So it's a art when somebody puts out a painting, when somebody makes a play, when somebody writes a poem, when somebody dances a dance, it feels to me like a way of showing

that untamed self to other people's untamed self. Right? Like a way of truly, how do we ever really, I mean, it makes me so stressed out and sweaty to think about this, to really think about like, how do we ever show our real true selves in a way where other people can actually see us? And it's not perfect, right? I feel like I'm writing in a way that is as close as I can get. Okay, hold on a second.

This is fascinating. And it's like striking me. This might sound super odd. I don't know. But it feels like what I was doing on the field was a little bit like that. So maybe that, maybe I also have art in me. Because yes, I was creating something out of nothing. but I don't know.

There was maybe sports is like art in motion on some level because just hearing you talk right now, Glennon, I'm like getting like this. When I was on the field, I wasn't performing like gender roles. I was like out there just being free and being powerful and being fast and being talented and being creative and being skillful and being tactile and all of these things. though it might not from like the world's quote unquote definition of what art looks like. Like I think that that that is art on some level. And I think that this could be kind of telling in terms of the way that our women's national team is experienced.

Because maybe I for a long, maybe the whole of my life have been breaking free for. from gender norms or the gender, the conditioned idea of what being a girl is on the field. Like, I'm just going out there playing and being fierce and being myself and not following, like, the guidelines or the conditioning that was handed to me when I was born into this world, right? So, I don't know, I think I could just be free to be myself out there. And maybe that is what is so contagious and magnetic about watching our women's national team is we're watching women not just break free from the social norms we were handed at birth, but also the freedom that we are being and using our bodies with that we kind of took. Like we took this freedom from like a young age. I don't know.

I mean, it's fascinating. It's like, while far from perfect, sports do seem to, first of all, of course, it's art. You're creating something out of nothing. You're creating the play. You're creating the thing using your mind and your body. You're creating this thing that was not in existence before that people are seeing and feeling and reacting to in real time. It's like a play. I've had that experience, Abby,

where I've watched the boys play the sports on the television. And I have watched them hug each other, kiss each other on the cheeks, be so affectionate to each other, watch the men in the stands with a full unbridled enthusiasm and passion and tears. And I have wondered, is this why they love the sports?

because it's a place where they can be fully human where they're allowed to let go of this, you know, conditioning boys have, which are don't touch each other, don't show vulnerability, don't show enthusiasm, don't show joy, don't care. They're allowed to do it in that realm.

Right? And girls are allowed to be fierce and animalistic and mighty and not care how they look and just care how they feel and compete and, So did it, did that freedom, this is one of my question for you, what I'm really interested about. When you stepped off the field, because there was your, you felt free. But what about the world's reaction to you?

Yeah. Okay. It was like, I guess this oasis, this field for me, just thinking about it instantly when I'm walking off the field, right? Like the first things that are said to me are just, first of all, surprise at what I was able to do. Wow, you don't play sports like a girl. Like you don't run like a girl. And so from a young age, I'm internalizing this misogyny. I don't understand it to be that.

I'm taking it as a total compliment, right? But what's getting set in my conditioning is. hatred of women, that women are less than, that women are not to be aspired to be. Right. So this probably informed so many of the decisions that I ended up making on how I want to dress and how I want to present and how I want to walk in the world. And what looked like a big compliment is this total, like this total sexist way of being. and like, yeah, what not to be like. And so I don't know.

I think it's really fascinating. Thinking about this freedom that I was expressing on the field was then being not just judged, but like put in this corner. So I'm now, I mean, the male privilege that I have experienced in my life is true, is real. And it's something that I'm trying to work through, right? Like, why have I made some of the decisions that I have made? And a lot of it has to do with the way that the world. responded to the freedom that I showed on the sports court or field.

And I would say that about art. I would say that exact thing, that that has been my experience. That in art, I feel free to show my true self, my real self in a way that feels less encumbered by my conditioning. When I step off the field, right? When I put that art in the world, the world's reaction to my art is completely gendered. Okay. Men write about their lives and it's called literature.

Women write about their lives and it's called women's issues. Men write about their lives and they're called leadership books. Women write about their lives and they're called self-help. Such bullshit. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on.

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I can tell you want to jump in there and I know you do. Well, I just have scruples. I think that's really important because I think the whole idea of women's art being self-help, I think is important because it isn't this kind of, oh, an author feels annoyed about being labeled a certain way, which I know that that's a thing too. But like to me it has nothing to do with the author. It has all to do with how the world views women. And this phenomenon where every author that connects on a grand scale with women is defined as self-help, it's based on this kind of circular logical fallacy that completely patronizes and completely pathologizes women. Because here's how it works.

It assumes that women's lives are a series of isolated problems as opposed to these, like, as opposed to these deeply problematic political and social structures. And then it says these individualized problems, clearly these women need to help their selves out of, right? So therefore, anything that connects deeply with women, anything that edifies them, anything that is a conduit in which they recognize their own lives and experience must be an answer to our collective, yet individual neuroses. Neurosis, right? Yes.

We are, so, so that's why art that is the story of men's lives, Hemingway, Vonnegut, Fitzgerald, that's art, right? But art that tells the story of women's lives is self-help. That's right. And it's horseshit. It's, it, every time someone hears that, they should think, you are viewing me as neurotically in need of self-help. Because when I say,

Inherently flawed. Yes. All of my male counterparts are either memoirists, artists, or leadership people. All of my female, that's what they're labeled. All of my female counterparts are. are self-help. It takes, it makes it, it makes, uh, this self-help idea is only talking to the individual. And this leadership idea is talking to the masses, right?

So it's like this whole philosophical difference between women can only help one. And men can help everyone. And this is like the freaking, this is why the systemic and institutional bullshit, like, who made up these fucking terms? Right. Like how the world sees us. The world believes that men's challenge is to just unleash themselves. Leadership. Just unleash your power.

Women's issue is that they just need to fix themselves. I think it's more, I think it's deeper than that. I think it's whatever the default group is. I think that men's stories are about our stories. Because that's the default. Because that is the lens through which the way. world allows them to just be stories. And women's stories and women's experience must be, must be a lens through which we see that all women have these various and inexplicable

individual dramas in their lives. That's right. One can't know why they're all so deeply, deeply irritated, but that's good because we'll give them lots of books. And then maybe they'll figure out what the hell is wrong with them. And then they can help themselves out of it. Yes. That's right. That's why they used to call in the second wave of feminism, they used to call the conscious raising in groups therapy. They would make fun of them. Oh, you good, the girls are in therapy again. Yeah. This is repeated over and over again to all female artists forever and ever. We just have to see it. And that's why I'm more. One of the, I feel like there's this, like, when you're talking about creativity and people might

think of themselves as, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a writer. I'm not a painter. I'm not a poet. So I'm not a creative. But the one of the like main theories about creativity is that a driver of it is this is called the assumption breaking process or counterfactual thinking that you need to engage in counterfactual thinking to lead to creativity. And so you have to get rid of all these kind of preconceived assumptions to even begin to attempt a new approach that hasn't been tried before. And that's why all of this, it always starts with like, if only, or why can't it be or why can't, and so that's why all of that kind of deconstruction of conforming to gender, you know, roles or white supremacy or worthiness is productivity. All of that is inherently a very

creative process. If you're willing to think, you know, what if or why not, that is creative. Like you're doing a creative thing. So I think what's what we're both saying here with this art and sports and all of it is that what is crucial to me is that art is just about five. finding a place to tell the truth about your life. Like as close to the truth as you can get, we call it like the truthiest truth, to be free, to let that real self free.

And then there's this crucial moment where you have to only be responsible for that. And when you leave the field, which the equivalent for me would be putting it out in the world or letting other people read it, understand that nobody will see it as clearly as you said it, that everyone's conditioning will come into it. And that is not your responsibility. Right? That it is not our responsibility to like follow our art around and be a lawyer for it.

Be a, you know, defender of it. That that actually, when I used to do that, that is what wore me out. Trying to make sure that everybody sees it the way that I meant it and trying to like prove that it's not, it was right or whatever. I almost quit writing a few times, not because I wasn't a writer, but because I wasn't a good lawyer. Like, I just stopped that part of it, understanding that once you step off the field, your job is done. You're responsible for telling the truth and in no way responsible for how the world handles your truth or reacts to your truth. So I think for our next right thing here, we're just going to ask you, you know, where do you get to where does your real self get to breathe and be seen? Like where and how is it that your real self gets some air? And it certainly does not need to be seen by other people. That's not what I'm saying.

Like it's just there is there any time in your day where your real self feels any freedom? Is it a coffee with a friend? Is it, you know, a quiet moment in the morning? Is it a walk? Like I'd, I, I actually want to know from the pod squad. Where is it during your day that you give your real self a moment to breathe and be seen and be acknowledged? And we love you. I'm going to ask sister, I just feel like we didn't hear enough from you,

which is shocking. I can't believe I talked so much. And it's just so unlike me. I think if it's okay with you, I would love to start the next episode with hearing about your approach to create and how it has or has not laid out in your life. Is that okay? No. Okay. Thank you for showing me yourself. I see your no. I acknowledge it. I celebrate your no as much as a yes. I said that to somebody on email and it felt good. I asked them for something and I said, I will celebrate your

no as much as I would celebrate your yes. That's good. Okay. We love you all. Find a place this week to let your real self breathe. It's hard, but we can do hard things. Also, babe, good job. You're using sports metaphors. Well done. Thanks, love. Thank you, love. Bye. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle.

Through fire, I came out the other side. I chase desire. I made sure I got what's mine. And I continue to believe. Because I'm a Because we're adventurers in heartbreaks on map A final destination We'll lack

They've stopped asking To places they've To be We'll find that all We can do hard A brand new star Sometimes things fall Things fall

I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time I'm fine Because we're adventurers And heart Destination We've stopped asking directions

To places We can do hard things. We can do hard things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.