We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 44. GABRIELLE UNION: Infertility, Bonus Parents & Free Families

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

1. Gabrielle shares—as rawly and honestly as we’ve ever heard—about the “emotional chaos” of her years experiencing miscarriage, infertility, and surrogacy. 2. Gabrielle and Abby discuss the label and perception of “stepmom”—Gabrielle shares what she avoids at all costs in that role, and the most vital part of the role for her: consistency. 3. How Gabrielle coached her NBA husband Dwyane before Zaya shared with him that she is gay, and how his reaction encouraged Zaya to tell the people on her “never-ever” list. 4. Gabrielle’s insistence that home is a sanctuary where all are embraced with love, understanding, and joy—and how, if you can’t get behind all of her family members, you’re not welcome. About Gabrielle: Gabrielle Union is an actress, executive producer, activist, best-selling author, and Time100 cover honoree. Union will next be seen in Disney’s remake of CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN developed by Kenya Barris for Disney+. She was last seen in “L.A.’s Finest,” the highly anticipated TV spinoff of the BAD BOYS movie franchise. She reprised her starring role as Syd Burnett opposite Jessica Alba in the series and served as an executive producer through her production shingle “I’ll Have Another.” Union formed “I’ll Have Another” in 2018 with the goal of telling stories that center marginalized communities with their specific point of views in an authentic manner.    In May of 2021, Gabrielle released – in partnership with her husband Dwyane Wade – her second children’s book, “Shady Baby,” which became a New York Times best seller the first week of release. Her first book, We’re Going To Need More Wine: Stories That Are Funny, Complicated and True, was released in 2017 and instantly became a New York Times best seller. The highly anticipated follow up “You Got Anything Stronger?” was released in September of this year and was a New York Times best seller as well.    Union has always had an eye for forward-thinking businesses centered around inclusion, accessibility, and affordability. In August of 2020, she relaunched her haircare brand “Flawless by Gabrielle Union” for women with textured hair. Prior to relaunching Flawless, Union co-founded Bitsy's with the goal of making healthy, allergen- friendly, school-safe snacks that are accessible and affordable for all families regardless of their socioeconomic or geographical status. Union serves as a leader and advocate for inclusion in the entertainment industry. She is also a champion of breast health and combating sexual violence. Instagram: @gabunion Twitter: @itsgabrielleu

So Pod Squad, Get Untamed, the journal is out today. Get it. I'm actually, I'm really excited about this. I do too. It's amazing. I feel like it's an experiment for people to do in their own homes and lives. So I was thinking this morning about how when Untamed came out, it was such a strange and weird time. And I thought, of course, you know this. I thought no one on earth would read it because it was the beginning of a pandemic.

And it turned out to be something that people really depended on, which was kind of a beautiful thing for me. So now get Untamed the journals coming out at this interesting time where we're all kind of trying to decide what we're going to build next. What I love about it is that I think instead of figuring out what we're going to build next, we kind of have to figure out from where we're going to build. And so many women especially struggle to know who we are because we've spent so much time trying to please others. So I'm excited for people to tell me how this journal works in their lives. And listen, we all know every freaking life is an unprecedented experiment. So I certainly don't have any answers. But in the journal, I kind of collected the questions, the right questions that I think will maybe help guide you toward the answers.

that are already inside of you. So give it a try. I want to know how it goes. I want this to be a conversation just like everything else. But first, order it today at getuntamedjournal.com or head over to your local independent bookstore or wherever you shop for books.

All right. Let's start a very exciting show. We've stopped asking directions. to places they've never been. Welcome, loves to We Can Do Hard Things. You're in for a treat today. We have a very special human being with us today. I would say one of my very favorite public women in the world.

I first remember encountering Gabrielle Union. A long, long time ago, I was watching some kind of interview. And I was much younger than I am today. And I remember distinctly Gabrielle Union being the first woman I ever saw speak vulnerably and powerfully about being a survivor of sexual assault. And it's seared into my memory. And then she went on to do all the things. Let me just read. Just a few. Here's a few of the things. Gabrielle Union is an actress, executive producer, activist, bestselling author, and Times 100 cover honorary. She will next be seen in Disney's remake of Cheaper by the Dozen, very excited about that,

developed by Kenya Barris for Disney Plus. In May of 2021, Gabrielle released in partnership with her husband, Dwayne Wade, her second children's book, Shady Baby. Let us please just talk about the name. Kavia, the Shady Baby, all day long. She's one of my favorite Instagram followers. is Gabrielle Union's not her, but her daughter. You got anything stronger, which is in my hand right now and highlighted to death,

was released in September. In August of 2020, Gabrielle relaunched her hair care brand, Flawless by Gabrielle Union for women with textured hair. Prior to relaunching flawless, Union co-founded Bitsies with the goal of making healthy snacks that are accessible and affordable for all families, regardless of their socioeconomic or geographical status. Gabrielle serves as an advocate for inclusion in the entertainment industry and she is a champion of breast health and combating sexual violence. Gabrielle, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Gabrielle can do freaking hard things. I mean, get out of here with that bio. Oh, my God. I was like, did my mom write that book? She's like, and when she was eight, she saved a cat. No, thank you guys for having me. This is, this is, I have to say, there's, there was one request when my book tour started. They're like, is there anyone?

You know, they usually say, who do you want to avoid? And I'm like, no, but I'll talk to anybody. They're like, is there anyone that you absolutely want to talk to? And I was like, please, Jesus. And then please, please, please. Are you serious? Please. Yes, I begged.

I begged and I begged and I begged. And so this is this, you have no idea. My girlfriend gave me untamed. and like every, probably like on page two, I had already underlined so many things, and I just kept calling her. She's like, I have a job, ma'am. And I'm like, I know, but we have to talk about this. I'm in the cage, I'm pacing.

It arrived at a time where I was circling the drain. And it just saved me. And I just, I have to thank you. And I've just been a fan of both of you. Yeah, I'm just, I'm going to try not to fan out and be a weirdo. I have to tell you, I had the same experience with your book. I remember having that conversation with Austin, my friend Austin, Shannon Brown. We were both in the middle of the book.

And we called each other and we're like, holy shit. Like she's saying the true things. Yeah. Like I just kept being more surprised and more surprised every chapter by how honest. Yes. You were in this book. I loved it so freaking much. But I have to tell you, before we even got this book in the mail, you got anything stronger, Abby and I have been, I don't know what the word would be, moved, inspired by your family. Yes. Okay. We've been watching. Yes. We've been reading Instagram captions aloud to each other. We see how. boldly, you know, our biggest dream for our family is that everyone in our family feels both held and free, right?

Held by each other, but also free to be their full selves. And you are modeling that so well with your children, and we'll get to that in a second. But when I read the first chapter or several chapters of this book, I knew not only did I need to know you personally, but also have you on because so many of our listeners, deal with infertility. It's, I think, the top thing that people write to me and say, please talk about this because so many people are suffering, experiencing infertility. And you write about it so honestly and so beautiful. Gabrielle, you said, the reason I can't tell you how many miscarriages I have had is that my life became one long

loss. I numbed myself growing used to the fact that life is not a series of heartbreaks, but an unending of failure and rejection. The worst thing about hope is that it remains to taunt you just out of reach. Can you talk to, I love that, by the way, because people are always talking about hope as a good thing, but actually hope is what kicks your ass. Absolutely. Because hope keeps you on the line. It's the carrot that you're sort of chasing after because we talk about hope as if it's our

salvation. As long as you have hope, you'll be okay. As long as you have an idea that there can be something different or better or change or evolution. Yes, yes, absolutely. There is the possibility of better days. But sometimes hope is fools gold and our ideas around what hope can do. I don't know. I think we need to shift those a bit and be a little bit more honest about what it means to dive head first into a shallow pool of hope. You're not going to come out okay. You're not. You know what I mean? There will be injury, some that you can see, some that you will feel spiritually forever for a lifetime. But we kind of have to need, we need to know that, that hope isn't secure all that. the salvation for every one of life's bills. It just kind of keeps you in the game where you're like, maybe, maybe this time. I don't know. I don't know. You know. That's why it's like a Buddhist

principle of abandoning hope. I'm going to say that wrong and everyone's going to write to me about it. But the idea that the hope is, am I going to be okay eventually? Yes. Yeah. I'm going to be okay eventually. But the hope is not, I'm going to still get this thing that I want so bad. That's good. Well, that's, I think, what we think of hope as, you know, logically, practically, I think we look at hope as the dream, you know, you can hope and you dream. We kind of use those interchangeably. If you remove hope from your life, you don't exist. You know, if you remove dreams from your life, you don't exist. We just have to, I think we just need different language. So we can be completely honest. Like, I want better. I want more. I want more. I want more. different, but I recognize that it might not be the end all, be all that I had chocked it all up to be. You know, I used to want a young man, you know, with bow legs. I thought that, I had hope that if a man with bow legs just entered my life, life would change. You know, I, to this day, I have hope that if I can learn to twerk, that my life will change. The world will open up to me.

I, you know, maybe I need some different hopes or maybe I need some different language, you know, surrounding some of these things. The infertility in particular is so interesting to me because there's, you were so honest when you were writing about how it felt like failure. And this always fascinates me about women. All these things that happen to us that have nothing to do with our control. We can't control them. but we, because of what society tells us we're supposed to be, they feel like failures. You said, if I could get pregnant, I would forever shake off the distrust society has for women who, for whatever reason, by choice or by nature, do not have babies.

The murmur of the unseen crowd came to me. This woman is such a failure. Can you talk to, I just want people who are listening to feel seen by this, I don't know, would you call it a struggle or this long period in your life when you were trying for this thing that you wanted so bad and couldn't get? Yeah, fertility is a journey. Like when they say journey, that's exactly what it is. I mean, I have our, you know, miracle child, Ms. Cavia James. She's amazing. But there's that thing in the back of my head every month. I mean, I just turned 40. I don't know how many eggs are left.

You know, they could be filled with dust. I don't know. But every month, when my period comes, to this day, it feels like a little death. And it feels like my body failed me. It feels like the world failed me. It feels like every system that I bought into, you know, desperate. and totally. It was all BS.

It was all bullshit. You know, because we tell kids, we tell kids, you do the right things. You know, you get good grades. You're a good person.

You're helpful. You're compassionate. You like your mother, whatever. You know, you're good people. Good things are going to happen. And you just sort of assume,

I'm not going to have any trouble. I'm a good person. Like, you know, they tell you to eat like basically weeds and, and take the supplements and, you know, whatever.

And, and then, You know, you're preparing your body for the life. And what if you do all of those things? And it doesn't fucking happen. What are you left with but feelings of failure? You either get it done or you don't. And, you know, Abby, you know, you could speak to this as an athlete.

I grew up as an athlete. My dad is very, you know, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Bobby Knight. He was a famed basketball coach, Indiana, who was notorious as being a bit, like, oh. Some say passionate, some say toxic and abusive. I think there's like a legal, like a legal trail behind that man. But my dad thought Bobby Knight was the Messiah. And he raised the three of us girls with like Bobby Knight mentality with like a hard fist. Everything is black and white.

You put in the work, you know, you should win, which is, you know, you could put in all the work and you never win. But I took that, I took that mentality into every area of my life. and when you take that mentality into fertility, I'm doing all the things. I'm making my appointments. I'm doing the shots. I stopped trusting myself to do the IVF shots. I hired the nurse from the clinic to come to my house because I'm like,

why are you trusting me with such a big task and a big part of this journey? I don't trust myself. I'm clearly not getting it done. I'm clearly a loser. I'm clearly a failure. And then it feels public, right? When people, you get married or you're in a committed relationship. And the question is always, when are you guys going to have kids?

If someone loves your love, they want that love to spread and to create more, right? Children. And so the questions are nonstop. And when you are someone that is known or in the spotlight, it's literally millions of people who are invested in you not getting your period, you know, and you creating this life and being able to hold this life and doing all the right things to show that you deserve. this life and that you are worthy of this life. And when it doesn't happen, it feels like this public flogging, this public emotional flogging. It is emotional chaos that I don't, honestly, I probably didn't do a great job of it because it's so big, but you're trying that you're,

you're so covered in shame like syrup that you can't get out from underneath it. And it just feels like, everyone can see everything. They can see your failure. They can see that you're a loser. They can see inside of your womb and inside of your heart to know you don't deserve it. And that you must be doing something that is affecting your ability. But it all comes down to you, like character issues. You know what I mean?

Like character flaws. And it just feels like death. every month. I mean, I, what you just said was so profound for me because when we got together, I came into this marriage with her and Craig had three children. And my dream was to have a child of my own. And over time, I realized that wasn't what this family was about. That was actually preventing me from getting close to these other children.

these children that I want to bring into my own heart. But what you just said every month when I get my period, I kind of like, there's a moment that I experience with myself. And I'm sure whether you are trying to have a baby and cannot or when you are choosing to not have a baby, I'm sure that that monthly reminder of your uterus being, and I'll say it for myself, feeling like my uterus was worthless. Yes. What the fuck was all of these periods for?

What was all of this? I mean, listen, it's not easy to get your period every freaking mom. There's a lot of drama that goes into it and stress and money and pain. I mean, the pain, the cramps, all of it. It just feels like, well, what was this all for? Yeah, good call. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking,

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off. Strawberry.combe, because your career should feel good again. I loved this part where I was trying to figure out this in my own life, where you said, Gabrielle, yet you're still trying to find the difference. Like, when do you know when to stop trying? Especially if your dad loved Bobby Knight. And that's your whole, my dad was a football coach. Okay. So I'm with you. No pain, no gain. No guts, no glory. It's too far from the heart to hurt. It's time for a Hail Mary. Your book was so full of sports metaphors that I actually had to ask Abby about a lot of things. Yeah. Okay. So I loved the part where you had to decide where was the line between continuing to try or go a different route, right? And you said, I'm still trying to learn.

the difference between resilience and neglecting my emotional reality. I mean, listen, I wish I had the complete answer, but the reality is I still struggle with this. And the choice was kind of made, not kind of, it was my husband who had been along on this journey and we were going through our own thing that made this journey feel so much more public and so much more fraught with... chaos and scrutiny. And by the time we got the diagnosis and finally someone was like, oh, girl, you got adenomyosis. I don't know what you were thinking was going to happen. You know, your adenomyosis is in a part of your uterus where most implantation occurs. And what it does is as

the embryo implants and tries to grow, the adenomyosis covers it like a blob. And the only hope for you to carry a baby to term would be to try this drug, Lupron. And Lupron gives you a 30% chance of carrying a baby to term. But the fun part of Lupron is that it throws your body into early menopause and kind of makes your bones super brittle. So I was like, what? I could break bones and still not be able to have a baby. Sounds perfect.

And my husband was like, ma'am, ma'am, enough. me threw in the towel. And it felt very much like, you know, I am full of sports, you know, metaphors and references. But that moment of, you know, he's like that the Apollo Creed's manager that's watching him die.

You know what I mean? And Rocky movie, Dave. And Rocky 3. And he's like, and he's fighting Clubber Lane. Like my infertility was like Clubber Lane. And my ass was Apollo Creed. And, you know, D is the manager like, that's it. I'm throwing in the towel. And he's like, no. Cutsu, he's dead. R-I-P Apollo Creed.

But I just didn't want to give up, you know? And if there was a chance, 30%, that might as well be 110. I'm going for it. And D was like, you've done enough. And there was the logical part of my brain that was like trying to fight its way out. That was like, ma'am, you squashed me for long enough. My tie, make an appearance. And I'm like, ooh, logic, how are you? And it's like, stop. It's enough. Like, you've reached the end at the road. And, but my emotional side was like, you, motherfucker, you are going to be the one to tell me. I've done enough. So it was, it was a decision that was sort of foisted upon me. And I begrudgingly accepted it. And I don't know, through a lot of therapy and Bray Brown, you know, Ted talks,

podcasts and books. I've read certain chat, like I've read certain little excerpts at the right time, just like when I read your book at the right time when I'm circling the drain. And she was like, vulnerability is a superpower. Vulnerability is where it's at. And throughout this whole thing, I'm holding it all in because I'm enveloped in shame, you know, and humiliation. Every period was humiliating. Every time my body betrayed me, it was shame. And here is this woman, this

gift, saying, yeah, yeah, sucks. But what if you were honest about it? What if you just told the fucking truth about what you feel to everybody? And you release the shame and you release

the humiliation. Because I thought those things were protecting me from reality. they're not. It's a delay from reality. It kind of morphs reality. It's going to look a thousand times worse than it actually is, you know, when it's framed through the prism of shame and humiliation. But when you embrace the truth and radical transparency, holy shit, it was, I freed myself. I freed, I freed myself to exist as I actually. was. And at that time I was broken and I had to be okay with being broken, but kind of committing to

maybe I don't need to stay here. Yeah. You know, being vulnerable isn't just like, yeah, ooh, girl, this shit sucks. I feel terrible and I'm just going to be here forever. Feel free to circle back and, you know, throw a dime in my cup. Vulnerability made me want to get help. Yeah. Vulnerability made me want to seek community. Yes. Yes. And talk to other people who are in this fumped up space. Yeah. Tell me how you got out. This is where I'm at.

This is what I'm dealing with. How did you see the light? How did you get there? Even if there wasn't a baby at the end of it, how did you get there? And what I realized was when you embrace radical transparency, it breeds community. But when you embrace the lie and you embrace caginess and being vague and silence, it breathes isolation. That's right. Yes. I learned that Gabrielle in recovery. I mean, walking into recovery meetings and sitting in those circles. And then it's like you have that

uncomfortable truth part where you're actually doing the thing. But then what's so cool after these recovery meetings is like you go outside and see all these, well, they're always like chugging mountain dews and smoking cigarettes because that's what we have to do for a long while. But like the joy and the community and the release that is the vibe after those meetings is because of that. It's because you feel free and then you want to, it's just this magical connection. Yeah, one person tells the truth and it makes somebody go, oh, I'm less alone inside of my thought of shame or humiliation. It's like if you can get comfortable being vulnerable, that is the freedom. Yes.

Because then you find all the other people that what Glennon always says is that come around. around and they just start saying, me too, me too, me too. Then you find your people and you feel less lonely. And then you've also released this shame and humiliation that is just like made up inside of you. You're an inspiration. Yes, she is. I mean, if you all want to know like the actual level of truth, because one of the things I love about you in general, and of course, the way you wrote the book is that there's no moment. I'm so wary of like the Cinderella stories where it's like, this was so, so hard. And now, right? Like so many people I think even think they have to write books that way. Yeah. And then it always sounds like bullshit. Because it is. Because it is. Because what

you're talking about hope also. Well, I'll be okay once I have the baby. I'll be okay once I find the love of my life. I'll be okay once. And then the once you keep landing there and you keep freaking being yourself. and then it's just a total, like the carrot, the chasing of the carrot can be forever. So the truth that you bring in this book, can you talk to us? You had a there she is moment, which actually freaked me out because the there she is moment is from Untamed is the most important moment of my life. But this is the moment where you first saw Kavia, okay, as like a little, what are they? A heartbeat. Mm-hmm.

You said. On one of those sonogram pictures? Yes. Yes. Yes. Natalie, who was your surrogate, laid down for doctor back to pass the ultrasound wand over the bump. There she is, she said.

And she was there, here, this very clear little baby in there. And you go on to say, Dwayne took my hand and there was so much happiness on his face, I lost it. My cry was a choke, stopped up in my throat, tears streaming down. it was grief. Can you tell us about that? That moment where should have, this is life, right? Should be joy, should be joy. Is joy is also grief.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. There are similar feelings in that moment to feelings of infidelity. When you are like, well, what did she? she have that I didn't have? What did they have that I didn't have? And what can I do to be more like that? Right. So as I'm looking at the screen and it's life, right? This life has been created.

I'm like, I'm looking at the chick that got it done. I'm looking at the motherfucker that had the goods to get it done. And it just again felt like humiliation and shame and worthlessness. And yeah, I just, I couldn't, I couldn't get past that that someone else had to be called in to get it done. Like to this day, I watch baseball and, you know, when they call up a pinch hitter in my heart, this is terrible. This is terrible. I'm just about being honest. I'm like, I hope they with because in the in I'm like I don't give it's my team like I'm like like I'm like I want the guy that got subbed out to be to have that moment of like see he couldn't get it done either um I am so grateful that Kavia James is here but in that moment watching someone else get it done

and watching someone else provide this joy for my man and our family that I felt removed from was excruciating. And all of the surrogacy stories that I read about were just pure gratefulness and moonlight and roses and unicorns and shit. And I was like, oh, now I'm a bad person. I'm definitely not worthy of being this little miracle's mother. I'm an actual asshole. Like I shouldn't be allowed around human beings.

Like I have these these thoughts. But that's the reality of where I was at. That is my truth. And if I'm going to keep it a buck, like a lot of people, when we're really honest, other women, other families who've gone through surrogacy journeys, talk about that. You're not allowed to talk about it, certainly not publicly. You know, when you go, when you take the baby to the first, you know, family gathering, It's got to be all moonlight roses and just, you know, pure gratitude.

But when we're allowed those honest moments where we're just talking amongst our, you know, our little crew of people who know this intimately, some of us had feelings of like just negative feelings toward the surrogate because it was a reflection. It was a mirror of how we felt about ourselves. You know, some people didn't want to talk to their surrogate or see their surrogate because watching life grow outside of your body. body, your child growing outside of your body. These nine, ten months are supposed to be when you bond with your baby. And here you are, you're removed from it. You're no better than the husband. You're no better than the other spouse that is where it's happening outside of your body. You're both at the same place. And mothers are supposed to be ahead of fathers in that way. But here we are.

And he's, you know, he was a teen parent. So he's been a parent longer, you know, over half his life, my husband. And I'm like, I didn't even babysit. Like, I didn't even babysit. Like, I was like, I'll mow your lawn. Don't give me your kids. Like, oh, no, thank you. I'll clean the gutters before I watch your kids. And it just, everything was just foreign. And there was, there was so much shame and hurt watching someone else get it done that it,

yeah, it just was a walking, breathing monument of my failure. And everyone was celebrating her. And here I was struggling with my feelings. But when I talk to other families and we're being honest, I know I'm not alone. That's right. But it really comes down to it's a reflection. It's all the reflection of how we feel about ourselves and those feelings that we don't allow to see the light of day, that we keep pressed down because of shame and because of our fear of humiliation and our fear of judgment.

That is the kind of vulnerability and honesty that changes lives and boost people because women are allowed to say it was very sad and then it was very happy and ungrateful. That's the storyline. Yeah. We're allowed. So to say it was sad and infuriating and I was jealous and also still might be sad and jealous. Absolutely. And there still might be those feelings. Like even though Kavia is with you.

and Dwayne and you guys are living your life, I think that there still might be some of those feelings that have continued on. Even if you go to therapy, you're like, fuck, I'm still sad. And you've got a lot of complicated, beautiful parenting going on. That is the nicest way anyone has ever put that. And I love it. I love it so much. If you're a business owner who knows nothing about AI,

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That is the kind. I cannot stand when people say anything about have you had, are you going to have a baby? But that is the most generous. I'm going to remember that forever. Okay. You are a step-parent. Yes. Yes.

Can you tell us a little bit about, well, actually, wanted to ask questions. Go ahead. I should probably let you since you are the actual step parent. Yeah. One of the things that I go through in my life that I could relate with you, I think, is this idea of step parenting. And I never really quite like the word itself, step parent. And I think the way that I watch you interact and stand with and stand up for Zaire and Zaya. I think that it's just astonishing to do it in such a public way. I feel like I felt so much of what you have been going through. You said in your book that you kept a fence up between you and them.

And I would love to know a little bit more about that because I can relate. I'm just curious to know what you think about that. Yeah. I was a, you know, I was an adult child of divorce. So my parents were married almost 30 years and they got divorced after almost 30 years. And I was in college. So all of a sudden, I'm a grown-ass person. Well, you know, you're a kid in college.

But like, I'm an adult. And here I am having to deal with this new terminology for this other grown-ass woman that's now saying, I'm your stepmom. I was like, I'm going to call you your name. call me my name, but we're, that, that's stupid. And I, to this day, I refer to, to her as my dad's wife and her name. I don't use the phrase stepmom. And so when I first started dating Dwayne, you know, obviously I knew he had children. And then he very quickly went through a very public custody battle. And to this day, I'm kind of like, this is kind of wild. You were a single NBA player who got full custody of small children. It's not common. But yeah, so all of a sudden it was like Monday,

we were just this carefree, you know, couple. I had, you know, gotten divorced, you know, a few years prior. And, you know, I was enjoying my life. Let us just put it that way. We were fully enjoying all of the things. And then Tuesday, the kids arrived, like, on a dime. Right. They, they cut, the ruling came down and here are these kids and they need, they need guidance and they need parenting. And I, you know, we weren't married at that point. So I was just this additional adult in their life that I wanted to make sure that I was consistent in their lives. Whatever personality that I was trying on that day or, you know, whatever, whoever I was, I just needed to be consistent so they could get used to me, right?

They've already gone through so much upheaval, you know, moving states away, not knowing anyone, you know, having gone through the trauma of divorce. And I just, I knew I needed to be consistent, but I just didn't know what my role was. And so by the time they proposed to me, because it was D and the kids proposing to me, I knew that when I married him, I was marrying them. The step-parent label was put on me by the kid's school. because you have to describe yourself. Like, who are you if you are not their mother? God, it's so annoying. It's very annoying. And it's not a word I would use. There's something about the second you say step parents, stepmother, stepfather. I mean, it's just, thank you Disney for making, you know, like the worst villains ever.

The wicked witch from the West. Yeah, it's like terrible. So you're automatically going into it with a kind of vibe. Like, let's see what the mother's going to say. And so you're already behind the eight ball. So what I realized very quickly is you will never, ever, I don't care if the other parent is dead. You will never be able to replace that other parent. Don't try to replace that other parent.

That is not your job. Your job is to be consistent. Like if you're a disciplinarian in your own life, continue to be that. Don't be some tiny, as the kids say. Just be consistent so they know who you are. And kids adapt, like whatever. whatever, you don't put on a weird act that you cannot keep up. Be consistent. Understand that you are never going to be their parent, but you can be a consistent, loving, compassionate adult in their

life that they can always count on. And you need to be the sanctuary in the storm. It is not your job to offer commentary about the non-custodial parent. It is not your job to point children in the direction of, you know, the truth that you feel like is going to set you free, but burden them with knowledge that they don't really need, especially, you know, children. And always remember that there is a gap in ages for a reason. One of y'all is the adult. And then there are children. And you always need to be the responsible adult that knows better. You know, the high road is empty because it sucks. But when it comes to the peace and sanctity of your children's lives, as much as I hate it, I will only take the high road when it comes to the kids and protecting

their peace and their grace. All others, meet me on the low ground because we're fighting bare-knuckle brawl. But with their peace, it's like, don't take. Don't take. family stuff or the past marriage relationship stuff and make it current topics in their presence. That is not your lane. And I just talk about staying in my lane. My lane is to be consistent and a sanctuary in the storm and to just be an additional set of eyes and ears to help them be amazing people. Yeah. And I think what's so wild and why everyone really needs to read this book is that what Gabrielle is saying, she actually shows when you talk about a sanctuary, you were such and are such a sanctuary for Zaya.

And this is how we always liked you, but we felt deeply in love with you and your family watching you lead the way with little Zaya. So one of my favorite parts of the book, which there are many, is when you're preparing Dwayne for Zaya to tell him that she, I think this isn't when she came out as gay, but when she came out as trans, you said to Dwayne, I need you to practice your listening face. I need open face, eyebrows up, like, oh, this is a pleasant discovery. And then you go on to say, which I love so much, this test wasn't about Zaya. It was about who he was as a father.

That is right. Yes. Your kids are your kids. They are who they are. But this was when Zaya came out as gay at the time. Okay. It was a very quick, you know, transition. She had different language.

She only knew the language that she knew at that time. So she came out as gay in the third grade. And she had done this school project about identity. And it was, you know, a picture of her in the middle. And she had all these folks. And, you know, I'm a middle child. I'm this. I'm she also said she was Native American and we were like ma'am that's not what the 23 of me said but um you know and then she said I'm gay and her teacher who was an amazing lesbian in Chicago uh she was like okay this is amazing uh don't know if this information is safe with the other parents because this project was going up for um open school what is it back to school night or open house or whatever it is so the other parents were going to be touring you know the classroom and because of

we are both in the spotlight, her concern was that Zaya's privacy would not be, and her piece would not be respected. And maybe some folks might use her truth as conversation starters, as folks do. So she gave us the heads up that this is, this was happening. And I was like, perfect. I'd seen this coming for a while. And I was like, welcome. But with Dwayne, you know, my mom took us to our first gay pride parade in 82 when we moved to San Francisco and she brought us these stickers that said straight but not narrow

minded and my mom is like a super duper Catholic like teaches CCD like all of her friends are priests and nuns she's that kind of Catholic and she but we're from Omaha Nebraska the north side so it's just even smaller and but her

thing was I've always wanted to raise my girls with a global perspective not a town perspective. And she was like, and now we're in the Bay Area and there's all these amazing communities. And I want you to, you know, to see it all and experience it all and, and get in there. And so that's how I was raised. I mean, that's just sort of how I was raised. But Duane, maybe a little different on South Side of Chicago. You know, his mom is a pastor and, you know, and in sport, there is, you know, as you know, there's just a lot of bigotry. It's a lot of bigotry, a lot of

bigotry, a lot of fear, a lot of hatred, a lot of ignorance. People say a lot of stupid crap. And when we first got together, I have a gaggle of friends in the LGBTQIA community. And he was like, oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, every day, you're going to be in the community. So I need to be comfortable. Every day. I'm just tired every day, Gabrielle, I got to tell you. I mean, my best friends in the world. So they're around a lot. And he was, like, oh wait, are you sure so-and-so is gay? Because like, he's like, and I was like, get this. There's all kinds of gay guys. Gay guys just like you. There's gay guys on your teeth.

Yeah. He's like, what, what? Yeah. And guess what? You're not their type. Yeah. You know, anyway, so it was an education constantly throughout our relationship. And so when I knew that, you know, Zaya was coming home to share her truth with us, I was, I also knew that D's listening face. He listens like he's listening to a coach. And it's not like you're listening, like you're in the huddle and you're like, yeah, tell us about that play, Spolstra. This sounds amazing.

You know, the eyebrows aren't up. Your face isn't open. He just, he listens, you know, scrunchy face and the whole thing. And I was like, so when Zaya tells you, I need open face, eyebrows up, smile. And he's like, okay, okay, okay. So Zaya comes home and she is shaking. She's just, she's shaking. She has no idea.

what our reaction is going to be, which to me, I was like, damn, I feel unsafe to this child. And I thought I was doing all the right things. But it lets you know, as much as you think you're doing, you probably really aren't doing shit. And she's turning into me, just bawling. And I was like, what is it, baby? What is it? And she was like, I'm gay. And I said, oh, my gosh, this is wonderful.

We're going to celebrate. This is so awesome. I'm so happy that you told us. This is so great. And she's like, I was like, do you think you can tell dad? And she was like, I don't know. I don't know. And I was like, I think dad might surprise you.

So D comes in from practice and, you know, he's still got the D face on, which is kind of scrunched face, eyebrows, you know, looking like a villain. And I'm like, I'm behind Zay. You know, I'm looking psychotic. And he's like, you know, now he's putting on this weird face. since I was like, I don't, now you look nuts. I don't even know what to say to you. But she told Dee and Dee was like, this is so wonderful.

I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. And then she was like, hmm, maybe I could tell others. And she had this list called the Never Ever List, the people that she did not, she never wanted to tell about her identity. And it was like, you know, 10 names deep. And half the people on that list lived in our house or worked in our house. And 15 minutes later, you know,

the older kids came home and she goes upstairs, comes flies back down. And she's like, I told him. I told Zaire and Dada. And we were like, what did they say? And she's like, Zaire was like, oh, okay, cool. And what did Dada say? All right. And we're like, that's great for them. They're teens. They don't talk. But she was like so surprised that she was being embraced with love and understanding and joy. And people, by the end of the week, everyone on the never ever list, they had flown off the list. And she was able to live free. And we made it clear that our home and anything that we touch is a sanctuary. And if you can't get right by how we are living and embracing of all of our family members, you are not welcome.

That's right. That's right. I'm going to love you from across the street and wave. But this home is a sanctuary. I can't protect them from everything out there. but this house, no, you got to save all that shit for, you know, your group chat. But I hope that your actual soul changes and expands. But if you can't pull it together to, you know, to be decent in our home, you're not

welcome in our home. And we were clear about that. And then you told the school. And I just, for all the teachers, so many teachers listen to this podcast. And I just want to read this one part. Okay. So Gabrielle goes or calls, calls the school. Gabrielle, I'm sure you could never guess this, but she describes herself as ready for battle.

Okay, she's going to tell the school. And I guess the teacher or the principal on the other side, when you said, you described what Zaya was going to go by. You said, Zaya is her name and her pronouns are she and her. Yeah. And they said, okay, no problem. No problem. When I tell you that I wish this for every parent of an LGBTQ child that the person they adore and cherish is not seen as a problem.

I say this from the deepest part of my soul. And Gabrielle, what I loved about that is like you were, it was a shout out to parents. It wasn't, you know, we worry so much about the kid, how's the kid going to feel? And that is the first priority. but the gift of of LGBTQ parents being able to say here is my most precious the most precious thing in my world will you please not consider this precious thing a problem exactly so powerful and to all the teachers and administrators just no problem I mean we have been very lucky very very very very very lucky and I say luck because it is the luck of the draw. But there is, there is the opportunity at every, at every institution, you can either respond in kind and compassion and love. And I'm not even going to say understanding

because I don't need you to understand. I need you to say, maybe I don't have all the answers, but let's figure it out together. And I'm going to always make sure that I'm creating a safe space for you to learn and grow and nurture, be nurtured. But every, every year I meet with not just the teachers, but if the teachers aren't supported by the administration, then you're only going as far as that classroom. And I want it to be clear. I don't have a problem suing people. I've sued many people. You could be added to the list if you want to with my kids. No problem, but let's be really clear. This is a situation. And don't start non-will-been and how we how are we doing, guys. And I've never been met with anything. But, you know, and I say luckily, because I know,

There's a lot of parents who've been met with derision and just discrimination and just horror stories. I've just been very lucky. And there's the horror stories. And then there's the general annoyance. The beauty of, you know, my child is trans. My child is anything. And then the reaction that makes it seem very clear that it's inconvenient for the other person. Right?

It's just like annoying. Like they don't fit in a box or they don't fit in it. So it's going to make it more paperwork. or it's going to make me switch my brain and this idea that even if it's inconvenient, love is always inconvenient. If you're working with kids, just be ready for a lot of inconvenience if they feel safe enough to actually tell you who they are, which is what we're trying to create anyway. Yes.

Yes. I just want to say this before we move on. The way that you celebrate Zaya is something to behold. It's something to witness. And I watch you all on Instagram and I see the way that you're not just like letting her be a part of your family. Like you're like, no, this is who we are. And having her step in front of you and Dwayne at times to be almost like the face of your family. And to me, like as a, I've been a gay person all my life. And I just want you to know. know that it is the modeling you're doing for other parents is maybe some of the most important work you and Dwayne will ever do. And you're saving actual lives. What you guys are doing now

is saving lives. And I just, that kind of love is not, it's not common. And I'm just so grateful for it. Then we see it coming from you. We see it all. We see you leading that way. I mean, did you see, like, their outfits today? I know. It's too much. It's just amazing. Well, Zaya is like, you know, she wants to go into fashion. So we're like, bet, say less.

And shit. So she's like, it was weird because, you know, the whole, people ask us all the time, like, why would you, you know, make her story so public? And the reality is we weren't. That wasn't Zaya's, you know, wish. But there was a time, you know, year and a half ago or so at the story. start of seventh grade where Dee was doing this documentary about his basketball career. And they were using a lot of footage of Zaya as a young little person, as a young child.

And not any current footage, because current footage would show that she's wearing women's clothing. And the filmmakers were just, you know, trying to avoid it. But when they would use her dead name, you know, because they're filming at our house. So she can, Zaya could hear them using her. dead name. And so she came to us. She's like, hey, you know, can you can you have them use my name, Zaya? And we're like, yes, absolutely, but we need to explain to you what comes with that. This is a public thing. This is going out to the world. Dad will have to do press surrounding this documentary. It's going to open up a can of worms. You know, I don't know if you're ready for that. You're a

kid. And she was like, uh-huh, I get that. But I need them. to use my name. I want my name. And we were like, she was like, so whatever, the chips, let the chips fall, but they're going to need to use my name. And from that moment, she has led, you know, there's a reason she's walking in front, you know, she's leading us in many, many ways. She drags us for filth often. You know, we only, we only know what we know. And, you know, so like, sometimes you might use the wrong, the wrong words, they're phrasing. or you're just ignorant to something. And she's like, okay, sit down, story time kids.

And she educates us, you know, within her smart butt way. But that's how it has to work. You know, sometimes when you don't have all the answers, and even if someone younger than you maybe has more knowledge about certain things than you, humble yourself. It's okay. Life's not going to end. And let the children lead, you know.

Whitney and Dolly said it best. You know, let the children lead the way. Yeah, we don't have to have the answers. I mean, we're always so afraid to talk to the kids because we don't have the answers, but we never have had the answers. We just have to be, as you would say, a sanctuary where they can tell us what they know. Well, a lot of parents, and it was weird at first because it just feels, I don't know, harsh and hateful, but they'll say, I don't know how to love her like that.

I don't know how to love him if he's going to do that, if he's going to be that way. And you're like, you can't love your kid? And they're like, no. Like just no hesitation. Just like, I mean, can you imagine? I'm like, yeah. You just love them. You don't have to understand every single thing.

I think they think love means understand. Yeah, or they're doing what you're doing. And it's like you don't have to approve or condone or condemn or understand every single thing. that's your baby. Love them. Love them and protect their peace like it is, like it is your piece. And in the way that you're trying to force your kids to shape shift, to make you more comfortable, so you're not dealing with questions and conversations that you may not be ready for, ma'am, sir, how about like address your shit? Don't put that on your kid. That's an option. That's an actual option.

Don't jack up your kids because you're not right with yourself because you're afraid of your neighbors and what they have to say. It is okay to cut out people that are trying to shame you or force you or cajole you into not loving your children? A fucking men. No. That should not loving your kids. Putting your children out like the garbage should never be on the table. Ever, ever. And there is no love without full and radical acceptance.

Just don't, it's something less than love when we are holding that, whatever we call it, approval celebration back. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge. You can see what's clicking and where a little extra reinforcement could help. That's where IXL steps in, giving kids targeting. practice so they can strengthen those areas early and keep moving forward with confidence. I-Excel is an award-winning online learning platform that supports math, language arts, science, and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade. What I love is how seamlessly it fits alongside

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Visit Ixel.com slash we can to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. I want to end with this. A few sentences. little caveat, James. You said the moment she pressed the plunger to transfer the embryo, there was this bright burst of light into the void. It was like watching the birth of a star. We just had to hope that the light stayed bright and was not extinguished.

And I just read that sentence like 13,000 times because I understand that that sentence was just about that moment where the embryo was being transferred. but it feels so much, Gabrielle, like that's what you do day in and day out with all of your kids. Like that you are just making sure that their light is not extinguished in any way. And you can watch their little faces. They just are so full of light or they're so full of whoever the hell they are. Each of them is so different. They're just, but your celebration of them is our favorite.

It's just, it's a beautiful thing. and I hope that you are also making sure that your light is never extinguished because you're a freaking light in this world. That's right. I mean, I do, you know, it's a show. You know, we all have our path and some days they're better than others. But it's a phrase that I have used not only for our children, but for our marriage, for business, for my friendships, for my familial relationships, because there's always that opportunity to snuff out somebody's light or to be in such a state where you're open for your light to be snuffed out. And there's just the little stupid things that you can do that just lets people know.

And I'm such a cusser. I was about to say, let the let motherfuckers know. Let people know. I am too. It's a problem. It's a problem. To let people know that their light is not just shining where they can see it. Their light is so bright that it's illuminating worlds that they can.

can't even imagine that they are illuminating. Okay. And those are just, I mean, they're little things that, like, go a long way, you know. So, yeah, just try not to extinguish anyone else's light. Let's do that today. That's going to be our next right thing. Blow out, no one's light today. Also, please, please go out and get Gabrielle's newest book, which is already in New York Times

bestseller the first week it was out. You got anything stronger because you're going to love every chapter because it's so freaking honest and beautiful, but also because we didn't get to the one part that I was dying to get to, which I am going to invite you back, please, to talk to me about, which is the chapter about ISIS and how you would redo her. I mean, you're going to need to get the book just so you can read what we didn't talk about yet. But someday, will you come back and talk to us just about ISIS?

Someday, next week. Listen, we got to talk about ISIS. We got to talk about, you know, me, my love of strip clubs and perhaps don't drink dark liquor and take X-Lax and go to a strip club. That's a chapter in there. But yeah, there's lots to talk about it. And I would love to come back if you guys would have me. And, you know, again, I don't want to be a psycho fan, but I am a psycho fan of both of you.

You know, Abby, I watched your whole career. We're similar in age. And, you know, you played with some of the greats that I came up with and, you know, played against, you know, Tiffany Roberts back in the day. Oh, hey, you know, girl. This is like, I mean, like, so I've just been a fan forever and what you've done for sport and what you've done for all women has just been, you know, amazing. And the fact that you all found each other, that is, that's everything.

And I just want to thank you guys, you know, for having me on. Proof of hope. That's freaking hope that either saves us or kills us every damn day. All right, then we will see you back here soon. And we will see you on Instagram. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Thanks, love. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. And my sister, if you're listening. See, I got it in there. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. I came out the other side. I chase desire I made sure it's mine.

I continue to believe that I'm a... Because I must were adventurers and heart breaks on math. A final destiny They stopped asking To places they And to be late To be known We'll find through a heart

A brand new star Things fall I continue The people are free It took some time I'm finally fun Final destination We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been And to be hard To play and do hard We Can Do Hard things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you

really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.