We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 49. Dr. Brené Brown: On Holding Boundaries & Facing Our Fear

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

1. Brené and Glennon role play through a scenario on how to put boundaries in practice with family members this holiday season. 2. Why Brené insists that starting “a love affair with the thing you’re most afraid of” will change your life.   3. Glennon asks Brené the question she’s been dying to ask about how a woman’s work is defined and received in the world compared to her male counterparts.  4. How understanding that grief and loss are an inevitable part of change helps us navigate toward the decisions that serve us.  5. Brené answers questions from the Pod Squad and our rapid fire session on: tough emotions, tattoos, and her favorite place on Earth. About Brené: Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at The Graduate College of Social Work. Brené is also a visiting professor in management at The University of Texas at Austin McCombs School of Business.   She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, is the author of five #1 New York Times bestsellers, and is the host of the weekly Spotify Original podcasts Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead.  Brené’s books have been translated into more than 30 languages and titles include:  Dare to Lead, Braving the Wilderness, Rising Strong, Daring Greatly, and The Gifts of Imperfection. Most recently Brené collaborated with Tarana Burke to co-edit You Are Your Best Thing: Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black Experience.  Her TED talk – The Power of Vulnerability – is one of the top five most viewed TED talks in the world with over 50 million views. She is also the first researcher to have a filmed lecture on Netflix. The Call to Courage special debuted on the streaming service in April 2019.   Brené lives in Houston, Texas, with her husband, Steve. They have two children, Ellen and Charlie. Book: Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience Instagram: @brenebrown Twitter: @BreneBrown To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everybody. We are back with Dr. Brené Brown, who is going to be answering all of your 40,000 million questions that you sent in. She's not going to be accountable for that, but she is not accountable. That's right. Good God. So many questions for you. But guess what? I get to ask the first question. So here's my question. Okay. I've been dying to ask you this question in a public forum for years because we've talked about this several times in non-public forums. My question for you, Dr. Brené Brown, is about the way women's work is defined and perceived and translated in the world compared to men's. You and I have talked about our slight, just minor frustrations around the phenomenon of our male counterparts in the world, often being defined as so many things,

leadership experts, et cetera, et cetera. Well, no matter what we introduce ourselves as, we are often defined, and I've even seen you defined many places as a self-help guru. Mm-hmm. a self-help guru. Can you just, because I'm sure that there are many people who would think, why is that even an issue? Why is that? Can you just talk to us a little bit about your thoughts about how your work is defined in the world compared to counterparts and how misogyny is laced in a lot of that? Yeah, I'm so bad just even thinking about it. Yeah, because look, I have $125,000 in student loans.

I went to school after I graduated from college for like seven years. Like anyone that does what I do would be, any man that does what I do would be called a social scientist, researcher. They would never, you know, like there was a headline in the UK that said self-help queen. I remember that. Yeah. You know, it's just. It's diminishing. Yep. And social scientist queen, great. Send me a tiara or whatever. I'll wear that. Great. I'll stick my data right up there. It's twofold for me.

One, it's just the patriarchal gendering of me, But then it's also dismissing from a long history of rational thought over emotion. It's dismissing my work as quaint and secondary and soft skills and optional. Women's work. I write it.

Women's ministry. Oh, oh, oh, oh my God. Oh my God. Don't ever put those two words together in front. I mean, yeah. And it's so hard because it's like, I write Dare to Lead. And Dare to Lead has been a really big book. But so many people in the beginning said, it's like women read leadership books by men and women. Men read leadership books by men. Mm-hmm. You know, and I'm like, I don't even like the gender binary part of that story, but it's, I don't get it. It's not that you feel less.

Mm-hmm. don't get it. It's not that you feel less. It's not that your lack of paying attention and your lack of self-awareness around your emotion is benign. You're hurting people. And you think this is soft skills? So let me give you two options. You can take three days and you can study PowerPoint, or you can study three days and we can talk about shame and the diminishing feelings inside you and how it's leading you into power over as a leader. They're going to pick PowerPoint every time. That's the soft class. It's a passive, aggressive, gendered jab that I just cannot tolerate. I can't stand it.

Yeah. gendered jab that I just cannot tolerate. I can't stand it. Yeah. And it's a jab, not just to you, but I think if you're in a place where you are writing to mostly women or women are consuming your work, it's insulting to them to call everything we do self-help. If it's for men, it's about how to like conquer the world, right? How to use what they have, right? How to use what they have to conquer the world. But if it's for women, we're just such neurotic messes that we just have to fix what's inside of ourselves real quick before we, right? Like the idea that everything we do is self-help

is so misogynistic to everyone who even receives our work. The word that keeps coming to mind is dismissive. Yeah. And self-perpetuating too. I mean, it's similar to the way Abby's, you know, women's sports don't make as much. Well, A, they do. So women's sports don't make as much. Well, A, they do. But B, it's because the marketing dollars and the channels you put them on and all of the like, it takes the investment to get the return.

And when you assume as a publishing company or whatever ventures that you're in, oh, that this cute thing from Dr. Brown is going to be for these ladies over here. They're not making the investment. They're not marking it as if it is what it is to the world. I mean, it's, do you know that when I was, oh my God, when I, the first book I wrote, I couldn't get it. I couldn't even get an agent, much less a publisher. So I borrowed money and I self-published it. And I paid an extra $30 at a writing conference to have an audience with a real New York City agent. And it was so funny

because he said, first of all, he said, don't use humor in your work. There's nothing funny about shame. Nietzsche once said, blah, blah, blah. And then he said, we'd be interested if you would be willing to turn the book on women and shame to women's most embarrassing moments. Oh, Jesus. It's so good you can't make it up. No, yeah. Like, what does that mean? Remember that time that tampon fell out and I was walking and it went down? I mean, what does that mean? Same, time that tampon fell out and I was walking and it went down? What does that mean? Same, same. Like, so similar to your actual work is that vibe.

Oh, my God. Well, I remember when my last book came out, the New York Times article said, Glennon Doyle releases another memoir? Question mark, question mark. Okay? And then David Sedaris came out with it as his 48th book the next week. And it was like, David Sedaris reveals blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yay. And it was just like, in the title, it was like, is she going to say another damn thing? She's going to say another thing? She has three things to say? Is she still talking?

She's still, why are we letting her talk more? But like when it's a man and he's on his 60th book, it's just amazing to me how men, you know, I'll do interviews and they'll say, do you ever worry that it's just like narcissistic to keep talking about yourself? Wow, men talk about their lives and it's a reflection on the human experience. Women keep talking about their lives and it's narcissism.

Right? Oh my God. It's just, yeah, it's, yeah. I mean, I remember I reached out to you. I did not, I don't even think I knew you that well. And I read something that said Christian mommy blogger. Oh dear God, it'll be on my motherfucking tombstone no matter what else I do.

And Brene, they only did that. That only came out when we started, when we got together, because some talk about propagating. Some person wrote a headline because what's the most shocking clickbaity thing we can put with Abby Wambach? A Christian mommy blogger, right? To be in a lesbian relationship. So one person put it in a headline and then that's all I was called for five years. I wasn't a mommy blogger anymore. I don't even know if I was a Christian anymore. Like, it doesn't matter.

I mean, yeah, it is. And sometimes I can talk about it like this and be okay, but sometimes I'm like in a corner crying. Like sometimes I'm, you know, I did Texas Monthly, which is a big thing in Texas. Like, you know, I did Texas Monthly, which is a big thing in Texas. Like, you know, Texas Monthly did a cover story and it had a picture of me, an illustration, like I was looking kind of into the clouds and it said, the journalist kept saying, you know, as a therapist, I'm like, I'm not a therapist.

Like, don't call, like, like I go to a therapist. I love therapists. I train therapists, but I'm a, I'm a researcher. I'm not a clinician. I'm a researcher. I'm a, I'm a social scientist. Mm-hmm. that. Oh my God. Oh, because she's also real touchy. She's real touchy. That's exactly it. It's important to just recognize for every person when language matters and then when people are assigning us roles and assigning who we are to us when it is not true of our experience and we are seen as touchy, overly sensitive or precious when we clarify who we are in the world. That is a universal issue that women face, I think. I love the point that you're making, Amanda, because I have a real shame trigger for me,

just family of origin stuff about being high maintenance. Like when we were growing up, high maintenance was like not a good thing to be. Like, it's like, hey, we're going. And it's like all the girls, baseball caps on, ponytails in the car in five minutes. There was just no dilly dallying. Like if we were on a road trip, you had to go to the bathroom, but it was across the freeway on the other direction. You're like, it's tough shit. Like, you know, we're going. Hold it.

And so, yeah, hold it, hold it. And so when I say, you know what, can you not refer to me that way? Like, oh, sorry. She's kind of high maintenance. Yes. Yeah. You know, I'm like, am I? I feel like it's integral to all of the work I mean how are we supposed to be people who set boundaries to say to know where our edges are but yet we're supposed

to be when the world tells us who we are when the world tells us where we belong we're supposed to turn into this amorphous just yes fitting in wherever we may be. And yeah. I mean, the whole book, Atlas of the Heart is about using specific language to tell you who I am. But then when she tells the world literally who she is, they don't get to like, they don't have to use that. It's so important when people tell us who they are to believe them and to use that language.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm for it. The course of true love doesn't always run smooth. She got really like upset and then I got super upset and we were like screaming at each other. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos and in a special Valentine's Day season of my podcast, The Happiness Lab, we'll explore the science of making our intimate

relationships more harmonious. This is like the worst possible way to spend a relaxing vacation. Journalist Charles Duhigg will help us all become super communicators. Everyone knows that experience, right? When you've had a great conversation and you just feel like you're on cloud nine afterwards. And we'll hear from husband and wife relationship experts, the Gottmans. I turned the phone off. You didn't turn it off. On why we should argue better. I did, yeah.

Uh-uh. Listen to The Happiness Lab, wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to The Happiness Lab wherever you get your podcasts. wanted to ask you about personal evolution and guilt. It's a wonderful thing to work on ourselves, to do hard things and to evolve as a person in whatever time we get with our one precious life. I found that sometimes that can come with a sneaky side effect of guilt when the evolution can mean leaving parts of our life and even relationships and friendships behind. And I was wondering, Brene, if you have any advice for embracing our evolved selves. Thank you, Brene, and thank you, Glennon, sister, and Abby. You are loved. Have a great day. Yeah. You know, I think back to in social work, we study systems theory and we, there for every change and for every shift and for every boundary, there's reverberations.

I maybe 10 years ago used to be more cavalier about you just have to do what's best for you and hope that other people can appreciate that. And if they can't appreciate it, I hope they can just respect it. I think when we make changes and we evolve and we figure out who we are, I think that path always includes some grief. And I think that we don't talk about grief as a part of change enough. And I think we don't do that. And it does people a real disservice because then when they hit grief, they think they've done something wrong or they think, I didn't know this was going to be coming and I'm changing for the better. But look, I've done everything from completely lost relationships that were important to me to having to really reconfigure and recalibrate relationships in a way where they exist, but they don't look or feel like they used to. And there's always been some grief in

that and questioning myself. And I think about this personally in my own life I think about this in the research I think about this in the leadership work I do change is often actually change is always I'm trying to think about being hyperbolic but change is always or always includes

a a series of small deaths. And if we don't understand that grief is going to be a part of change and that loss is going to be a part of change, I don't think we can successfully evolve. And I don't think we're doing people a favor by not saying there's going to be some loss. Even if it's the death of an expectation, you know, like I set this boundary and I really expected this person to say, I respect that boundary and I want to make this new relationship work with this boundary in place and they never show up like that, there's a death there. That's so helpful. Just the expectation. But also there's a death either way is important to remember because if you don't choose the change, if you don't choose yourself, then there's a death happening that way also, which is whatever

you were about to become. Yeah. So death this way, death this way. Choose your death. Choose the right death. Yeah, choose your death and maybe be guided by the possibility of rebirth as you choose your death. You know, and I don't know that we can birth

what we don't have some control over. You know, so I'm always going to choose and sometimes it'll take me 10 minutes and sometimes it'll take me a decade to make those choices. Loss is hard. Yeah. Okay, let's go to Kim.

Kim, are you there? How do you know when to quit? And because I feel like I beat a dead horse until it has gone to dust and ashes and I stay in things too long so I just you know I think the fear of change is probably a reason why but you know I just don't know when you know when to walk away from a job from from anything. It's not just like relationships or anything like that. So thank you. I think it goes back to the first question as well from Caroline, right? Yeah. I think for me and what I see in the research is the question

of, and I think about you, Abby, a lot around this, because I actually think about sport in general. But I have to say, just for the record, that Wolfpack was the most impactful leadership. I've read 5,797 research books. I don't think anything changed my life as much as Wolfpack. Oh my God. Oh my God. Renee, get out of here. No, no, no. I don't. I don't. I don't think it was like, like I get teary eyed thinking about it.

It was so monumentally just impactful and useful and really changed me, changed who I am as a person. Wow. As a parent, the way I, in my, you in my partnership with Steve. Thank you. Yeah. It's, I think that thing that when we find ourselves just not letting go and wondering why am I, you know, I think it's the question of fear. And I always ask myself when I find myself charging towards something over and over or running away from something over and over, like, what's the fear? You know, what is the fear? Like, if I let this go, if I stop doing of, that's the most, that, you know, a love affair with the thing you're most afraid of, there's nothing more powerful than that,

than just not running from that thing, but saying, I'm going to invite you to be with me, this thing that I'm the most afraid of and teach me like, what is it that, what am I doing? the hope, the expectation, the dream, because we don't understand the fear that's right under letting go of it. Yeah. But I think about your work a lot. I'm going to just tell you this weird story. This is a very weird aside from the question, but so I, I was a competitive swimmer, any sport I did, you can start with competitive. So it's just my nature. Yeah. Yeah. But not high level, like, not like, you know, a professional or even a D one athlete, just, just whatever. I'm going to beat you, um, wherever I play, Just whatever.

I'm going to beat you wherever I play. No matter. I love that. Yeah, it's really good and it's terrible. But so tennis. And then I just took a pickleball. Abby, have you played pickleball? I have not played pickleball, but I know of it.

It's like huge in Naples. Oh my God, that's a capital of pickleball. That's the Naples is the capital ball. Yeah. So anyway, so this is my fear. This is my, my love affair with my fear. So I played a lot during, and as an ex tennis player, it's great. Cause it's, you know, less hard. I thought so theoretically, but it's probably still pretty hard on your body, but I'm playing, I'm playing, I'm playing, and I'm like, I'm going to be a four player by this time, and I'm just doing this. And then all of a sudden, I'm in COVID playing. And we go one day because it's raining to an indoor pickleball place. And there's four of us. It's me, my sister, and then my coach,

and then another friend of ours in Austin. And you don't get a court with all four people. You lay your paddle down. It's open play. And we call two people at a time and you play. It's the first time I've been in public in a year. So people are already like, oh, hey, oh my God, I love your work. And they're taking pictures of me. And I get on the pickleball court and these two paddles. I hold them. I was like, oh shit, those are ours. So I go and these two guys are like, oh God, these two men. And when you serve in pickleball, you just put the ball into play. It's nothing fancy. You're not tying like a tennis ace. You just put the ball into play. Seven faults in a row.

seven faults in a row. Seven faults in a row. Just wrong side of the court. And the guys are like, of course, like this, we draw these two women, you know,

and Daria. I fucking hate those guys. I hate those guys. Yes. Yeah. I hate those guys. Fucking hate those guys. So they don't know because we haven't been able to play

because I'm faulting everything. That the person with me is a professional pickleball player, D1 college coach, coach at UT. And, you know, because we haven't been able to play because I'm faulting everything, that the person with me is a professional pickleball player, D1 college coach, coach at UT. And she goes, she just looks at me and she goes, what are you afraid of? And I said, I don't know what's happening right now. And she said, she goes, total sports psychology on me, focus on the task. Bounce the ball, hit the task, bounce the ball, hit the ball, bounce the ball, hit the ball. And I said, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of being filmed. I'm afraid of people putting me on YouTube. I'm afraid of Brene Brown. I'm afraid of, oh my God, I'm afraid of laying down these fuckers I don't even know at this pickleball place. And then I was like,

okay. And I literally just kind of grabbed this air and I was like, okay, fear. And I stuck it in my pocket and I was like, okay. And then I just played, we beat them of course. Yeah. But it was, and I talked to Pippa Grange about it, the sports psychologist. And she's like, you know, you got to befriend the fear. It's telling you something, probably trying to protect you from when you didn't have agency as an adult. You know, but what are you afraid of? So good. Gosh, that reminds me of that part of your book where you said anger is a wonderful catalyst. So good. Of like that fear being catalyst to be like, what is it? As opposed to like, I'm just going to be with it. I'm just going to let this just be with me and define my experience for this whole time.

Yeah. And not letting go of something is not a good catalyst because you don't know what the emotion is underneath it. So what's the fear? What's the shame? That's the catalyst. And then you'll get the decision whether to let go or not, or keep gritting away. But you know, big difference between grit and grind. Can you say that? Say something about that. I need to know the difference between grit and grind.

More please. You know, grit, I mean, I'm thinking of Angela Duckworth's construct here, but grit, thinking of Angela Duckworth's construct here, but grit, people who have a ton of grit walk away from stuff often. They're not afraid to say, this is not working. This is not what I thought. I'm changing course. I'm pivoting. I'm letting this go. Grind is much more externally focused than grit. Grit is, this is about me. This is about my grit. This is about grind is what will people think. Holy shit. This is so fucking transformative for me because it's exactly the thing that I've been working on in the last five years of retiring from playing sports. I was grinding as an athlete because I was so focused on the external, what people thought of me, the rewards that I would get externally. And then over the last five years, because I don't have that audience, literally, I've been working so much on the grit and being able to say, you know what, that actually isn't working for me. So when I suck at commentating, when I first retired on ESPN,

I hated it. I hated every second of it. And I also got the feedback that it was really terrible on Twitter and Instagram. And I thought, okay, this just isn't for me. And I just left it. And so now I find myself doing things that that's really, really fascinating. That are for you inside that, you know, the right kind of hard or the wrong kind of hard. That's right. That's right. Cause, and I can be disciplined. Like I go surfing every day, even though I suck because I want to, I have grit because I want to figure it out. Yeah. That's grit. That's grit. Like waves up your back, salt water up your nose, can't breathe, fuck, I don't want to go today.

Yeah. That's grit. Yeah. With me, it's just you. Yeah, because it's you, the board and the wave. That's so good. And to watch you play,

like my sisters and I did obsessively, that was grit. So good. Yeah, you could say like, she really doesn't give a shit what any of us thinks. It's, you know, her, the pitch, the ball. I wonder if she even knows we're here. I did. Do you know what I mean? I did. I had a little vanity in me for sure. But the difference between grit and grind, it's really big. I love that, Brene. Okay, you guys, let's hear from Danielle.

Hi, everyone. My name is Danielle. My question is around boundaries. So I know boundaries are super important. I can set boundaries. But how do I tell people what my boundaries are? I feel very uncomfortable being like, hey, I have boundaries. This is what they are.

Can you please follow them? So I'm not understanding how to do that in a way that is comfortable for people to get my boundaries across. And that is my question. Thank you so much. Boundaries. Listen to Brene's podcast. Yes.

Very good at this. Concrete, very concrete instructions. I do give really, I set really concrete boundaries, but I don't think I've ever used the word boundary in setting them. Really? I think that's really complicated and hard and could set you up for a not good conversation. So I think that the setting of boundaries is about, I wish she was on the phone so we could role play one together, but. I'll role play with you. Yeah.

Okay, great. So what's something you're worried about? Okay, let's say there's a, let's say. We don't have enough time for that, Brené. Let's say, well, the holidays are coming. So let's say a lot of people are trying to set boundaries with family,

like people who say inappropriate things or say, I'm a person who is single and my mom is always bringing up marriage in ways that make me uncomfortable. How do I talk to my mom about stop saying stupid shit? Yeah. So, hey, mom, I'm super excited. I'm going to get in Wednesday. I'll be there probably about noon. I cannot wait to see y'all. One thing I want to let you know is I know you love me, and I know you think a lot about me finding a partner, and I love that you think about me and you worry about me. It's okay to do that. What's not okay is to talk about it with me. do that. What's not okay is to talk about it with me. You can worry about me. You can think about it all the time. You can have a ton of questions. That's okay. What's not okay is to bring the questions to me and to talk about it in front of other people, even with me. You can talk about it with Aunt Julie. You can talk about it with whomever. I don't want to be in that conversation. you know, Aunt Julie, you can talk about it with whomever. I don't want to be in that conversation. Okay. Then in your research, what is the next thing that mom says that is so hurtful and not accepting of this boundary? What do they say next? Like, well, you're so

sensitive or. Yeah. Let's, yeah. I mean, you're, you know, oh, come on. Like, you know, come on. We're just, you know, we love you. And, you know, and we were just, we're just having a good time. And, you know, I just think you're just, what a catch you are. Oh God, mom, I hear you and I love you too. And I love that you think I'm a great catch. That's, that means the world to me. I'm going to ask you again, I don't want to talk about that. It's hurtful to me. So I'm going to say it's okay that you think about it and worry about it. It's not okay that we talk about it at dinner. Excellent. And then I have one more follow-up question. The thing that people say over and over again, as if it's some kind of antidote to everything

painful and shameful that we say to each other is this word, oh, we're just joking. It's just a joke. What do we say? I mean, and I love how you talk about sarcasm in the book too, and how that can be so dangerous to relationships. When someone says, I'm just joking, as if that's a permission slip to say whatever you want, what is a way we can approach that whole concept because it stops conversations. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things. So I think one of the most powerful things about a boundary that people forget is people think boundaries are just what's not okay. When we tell people what is okay, when we tell someone, look, hey, this is a true story. Look, hey, this is a true story.

Always had a Christmas party when Ellen was in elementary school, invited a lot of the folks from the neighborhood and just people that were not really friends, but you know how you become just a community, our kids go to school together kind of thing. Talk of the neighborhood for a while was someone who drank a whole lot. You know, it was funny. Everyone was joking because, you know, passed out at book club, those kinds of things. Not ever funny for me. And so I had two choices. I had given up gossiping for Lent that year, which was really hard. It was a very quiet 40 days and 40 nights. The desert, man. Yeah. I realized I had no friends at all, really. Cause I was like, what am I talking about with most of these people except for other people? I don't really like any, you know? And so

so it was a very spiritual practice for me to give up gossiping. So then I thought, oh man, what am I going to do with this person at the holiday party? So I actually asked her to talk to her after drop-off one day and said, I'm super excited about you and husband and kids coming to the party. Can't wait to see you. I'm going to have to ask that you don't drink at the party this year. Wow. Yeah. And she said, haha, I get it. I was a little waster last year. I'll take it easy. I said, I'm not asking you to take it easy. I'm saying, I really want you to come. I really want to see your husband, your kids. I really want y'all to be there. But I'm asking that if you come that you not drink at all. And she said, are you telling me that I cannot drink a drop of liquor if I come to your party?

And I said, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm saying that I hope you come. She said, I wouldn't come to your party. It was the last fucking party in the world. And I said, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm saying that I hope you come. She said, I wouldn't come to your party. It was the last fucking party in the world. And I said, I'm sorry. And I get it. And I miss seeing you there. I'm missing you there. And that was it.

We never spoke again. And I'll tell you the story is she ended up in a very tragic situation in rehab about a year later. There are just times when we have to choose, what are the choices there? Are the choices, I don't invite her. God, that's painful. That's so painful for that person. So painful. Are the choices, I invite her, but I don't let any liquor in the house. Well, maybe. And we actually don't serve a lot of booze at anything, but I think this was like a BYOB is what we usually did. But I'm not going to do that because I don't see a reason to do that. And she's not going to control the whole party. Right. Exactly. Do I let her come and let her get drunk again, which is really weird for my kids because I've

been sober before they were born. And Steve drinks a 12-pack a year. And so what are my options? That's my only ethical in my integrity option is to be honest with her. So I think the whole, I love that you think I'm a catch. I love how much you love me. I love that you're worried about me. That's okay. And I appreciate it. Not okay to talk about me.

I want you to come to the party. The joke thing is as a family that comes from joking and teasing that always ends up in tears, I think when someone says, and we're really good at it, we've honed the craft of, you know, I think when someone says, I'm just joking, and you can say, you know what, I get it. And it's tricky in our family because we have so much fun giving each other a hard time, this is not funny for me. This hurts me. And I'm going to have to ask you not to do it. And if we have to make joking off limits, I'm willing to do that and that will be hard. But I'm going to ask that we make joking about this off limits. It's not funny for me. That's good. Renee Brown teaches us clear as kind.

We have to go to rapid fire because we have like very few minutes left. We cherish your time. Okay. I'm still trying to get over that varsity level shit of that telling that woman. I'm like, wow.

I'm going to think about it for the rest of my life. Okay. Dr. Brene Brown, what's the one emotion that's hardest for you to carry? Fear. What's the one emotion

hardest for you to receive in others? Fear. Who makes you laugh? My sisters. Same. Abby gets jealous about how much sister makes me laugh. What's the thing about yourself that you find most challenging? I can be scary when I'm scared. Okay. What color brings you the most joy? Teal or turquoise. What's your favorite place on earth? Like Travis. If you could have dinner with any person dead or alive, who would it be?

My Meemaw. What's your zodiac sign? Scorpio. Interesting. What has been your best Halloween costume? I don't do Halloween. Me neither. If you had to get a tattoo, if you had to, like today, somebody said they're coming and they're going to do the thing, what would it be?

God. God, that's a good one. Yeah. Okay. How do you decompress after a stressful day? Pickleball. What song, we know music is very important to you, what song is at the top of your playlist right now?

Oh my God. At the top of my playlist right now is, oh, Brandi Carlile. We love her. I mean, and to end with Brandi, let us end with Brandi. It all begins and ends with Brandi. Ends with Brandi. It all begins and ends with Brandy. Ends with Brandy. That's it. Dr. Brene Brown, we are so flippin' grateful for you. And I just want to say real quick, I don't even know, just as we end, what the world needs to know about you, Dr. Brene Brown, is that besides what you already know about her, most of the time when I'm talking to someone who's in this world but is like not as far ahead, they say to me, well, I just had a call with Brene Brown and she told me this.

And then the next person's like, well, I just had a Zoom with Brene Brown. What you do for people behind the scenes is real and true and beautiful, and nobody gets to see that. And so rarely do we see people who are even more of who they are when no one is watching, and that is who you are. And we love you for it forever. Thank you. Man. Thank y'all so much. I just love y'all, and I'm glad we're all here at the same time making our way.

Yeah. Before we head out, let's please hear from our pod squatter of the week. This is my favorite time. Hi, Glenn and Amanda and Abby. My name is Sarah. This morning, I was having a really crazy, stressed morning, as most moms, I'm sure, experience a couple of times a week. I was trying to get my three-year-old and my seven-month-old ready to go over to their grandma's house for the day, trying to get my three-year-old and my seven-month-old ready to go over to their grandma's house for the day, trying to pack up all their things. And I was just running around. And I know that my three-year-old, who's very intelligent and emotionally in tune,

could see the stress on my face. He came over to me and he hugged my leg and he said, I love you, mommy. It's going to be okay because we can do hard things. And obviously that just stopped me completely in my tracks. Um, he was like, you use the advice that I gave you, which Glennon gave to me, um, back onto myself. And it was just a really incredible moment. So I just wanted to say thank you for filling my soul and my heart every week with your podcast. It's really obviously made a difference, not only in my life, but my children's lives and the way that we can communicate to each other and share information. So I'm looking forward to continuing to listen to your podcast in the future and please make them for the rest of eternity.

Thanks. Have a great day. I love that so much. I just think about that little moment and how I just think it's so cool that this podcast has and can do things like that. It's just incredible. And isn't it cool how we forget? We know things and then we forget and then somebody in our life just walks right back up to us and reminds us of something we already know. That's what we're doing for each other, right? We're just reminding each other, forget, and then remember, forget, and then remember. All right. When you forget this week that you can do hard things, don't forget. You can. We love you. We'll see you back next week.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.

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