We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 60. Telling the Truth of Who We Are with Luvvie Ajayi Jones

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

1. A hilarious, profound take on judging people, and why Luvvie’s telling the world–and has often told Glennon–to: “Fix your face.” 2. How to prepare for hard conversations with those we love–including the lists Luvvie brings to those talks that help keep her calm and vulnerable. 3. The importance of sitting with the fear behind the questions: “Who am I when I am not giving something to somebody?” and “What is my worth when I have nothing to offer?” 4. How we can affirm our teen Troublemakers to keep being different–that their power is in remaining as odd and amazing as they already are–and the complications that led to in Glennon and Abby’s home.  About Luvvie: Luvvie Ajayi Jones is a two-time New York Times bestselling author, podcast host, and sought-after speaker who thrives at the intersection of humor, media, and justice. Her critically acclaimed books Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual and I’m Judging You: The Do-Better Manual were instant bestsellers and established her as a literary force with a powerful pen. Professional Troublemaker was just released in paperback.   She’s an internationally recognized speaker who takes on dozens of stages every year around the globe and has spoken at some of the world's most innovative companies and conferences, including Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Twitter. She is also co-creator of the #SharetheMicNow global movement and hosts her podcast, Professional Troublemaker. Instagram: @luvvie Twitter: @Luvvie

I chase desire I made sure I got what's mine. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. And today we are going to do a very exciting, easy thing, which is have a combo with one of my favorite people. Her name, and I'm sure that all of you know her already, but I hope today you get to know her better. Her name is Levy, Ajay-Jy Jones, and she is a two-time New York Times best-selling author, podcast host, and sought-after speaker who thrives at the intersection of humor, media, and justice. Yes, she does. Her critically acclaimed books, including professional troublemaker, the Fear Fighter Manual,

which just came out in paperback, and I'm judging you the do-better manual. The best. Yeah, both of them, the best. One, I will tell you that I'm judging. you is the one book that my sister read maybe cover to cover. And then when she got off the plane, after she was reading it, she called me and said, I actually just peed in my pants on the place. Like, pee came out. You know how you always say L-O-L, but really you're like, just typing L-O-L. You're like, I did not even a little bit laugh. I actually was laughing out loud

on the plane. People were looking at me funny. It was amazing. Yes. And so many people felt that way, which is why both of these amazing books became instant bestsellers. Levy writes on her site, Awesomelylevy.com, covering all things culture with a critical and hilarious lens. Her wildly popular TED Talk, check it out, called Get Comfortable with Being Uncomfortable, has over six million views. My bio is so long. Blennon, you don't have to continue.

It's okay. Okay, well, I do want to say that she was born in Nigeria. Yes. Bread in Chicago and comfortable everywhere. Lovey enjoys laying around in her plush robe eating a warm bowl of Joloff Rice in her free time. Her love language is shoes. I have so much shoe envy. I know.

Her shoe game is serious. Well, the best part of her shoes is that she, her shoes make her like a frat boy, like a preppy frat boy. She has preppy frat boy loafers all the time. She's just, she's so intersectional. I dress like I own a yacht and I summer in Maine. I do. I do. It's true. Well, Lovie, we freaking love you. I mean, listen, you don't know this, but I get you in my inbox because I follow your newsletter that comes out. And every single time, because on the newsletter, you say, Abby, comma, and then it's your newsletter. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, Lovie emailed me. Every time, Lavi. Let me email me. And then I open it and it's like your newsletter to like your millions of community people.

I'm like, oh, she didn't email. Abby, she mailed to all of us. I want you to have the special feeling every time. I really do. So yes, please continue to think I'm emailing you directly because I probably am thinking about Abby. Okay. Who isn't thinking about Abby? That's what I'm saying.

That's what I'm saying. Well, many of us over time have been taught not to. judge. Okay. We have been taught judge not lest we be judged. So we're scared because of whatever the hell that means. Okay. So we only judge. All we do is judge right though. That's the problem with that is that all day all we do is judge. No, no. Some of us. We are all of us. All of us. All the time. Right. So what I love about Lovey many things, but one of the things is that she judges freely and openly and relentlessly and shamelessly. And shamelessly.

Shamelessly. And it helps us all do better. That's right. Yeah. Yes. So before we get into all of that, what I want to know, love from you is the theme of our podcast is that we can do hard things. So we are always trying to talk about the real shit, right?

Yes. So what would you say right now at this moment in your life when you have such a beautiful professional life, but also such a beautiful personal life. I love your marriage and your, just your relationship with your friends is so real. I want to talk about that later. You guys always are doing something cool together and you're always on a yacht somewhere. And supporting each other. I want to be on a yacht somewhere with Lovey and nobody's freaking invited me.

You don't have yacht shoes so you can't go. But what Levi is hard for you these? days. If you had to think about what, you know, you wake up, you go to bed worrying about or thinking about, what is the hard thing for you as we begin this 2022? You know, the hard thing for me is stopping. You know, many of us are type A overachievers, perfectionists, creatives, writers, artists. Stopping is my biggest problem. Like, I always have a thousand ideas. And here's the reason why it's a hard thing. Because I feel like my brain just won't shut off.

Sometimes I'm like, brain, shut up. Like, let's just chill for a hot second. Let's not do another project right quick. Let's actually just sit on the couch and be blobs. And I think, you know, in the run, run of our lives and of these purpose-driven lives that we want to lead, sometimes purpose will lead us to exhaustion. And it's, you're excited, you're invigorated by the work and by the journey. but sometimes you also hit a wall and you go, I'm burned out.

So that's why my challenge is to stop. I've produced so much. Yeah, so that's really hard. Well, I have a question. I just want to follow up. What is driving you to not stop? Like, what is the driver of that, like, the thing that rises up that's like, oh, no, I got to keep pushing on.

I got to forge ahead. Oh, that's a good question. Momentum? Maybe it's like the ball is rolling. Don't stop the ball. And I think it's something that a lot of us have in terms of limiting beliefs. If you're on any margins, you feel like your chance is small. And what's interesting is I don't even think my chance is small for whatever my purpose is.

But yet I'm still running. I think it's our constant need to maybe it's that we actually think without producing we're really not worth all we think. worse. Okay, so you're driving towards a worthiness? I think there's an imposter syndrome piece there. That's cool. I think there's an imposter syndrome piece there because we talk about imposter syndrome is like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm in that room. No, I think as a lot of us rise in our careers, it shapeshifts into this thing that says now you have to prove your way to stay where you're at. That's good. And to be worthy. I feel that. And it's like you and I love you. you, we have teams of people and we have people who are counting on whatever the hell we're

going to show up and do next. So what if we don't show up and do anything? Like what? I don't, that's, it's scary actually. The other day, I actually wrote a note to myself in my phone and I said, who am I when I am not giving something to somebody? Damn. It was a question I wanted to start asking myself, who am I when I am? not giving somebody something. Like, who do, what do I feel is my worth when I have nothing to offer? Ah, geez. Am I still lovable in my most selfish moments? So let me ask a follow up to that. I think it's really important. Who do you take from? Because it sounds like, who you get from?

Yeah. It sounds that you're always like giving, giving, giving, giving. Who do you let give to you? Who in your life is is giving you love, force, energy, light? Oh, this is so good. Good. Wow. I take from my husband. And sometimes he's like, let me give you stuff. And I'm like, huh, that's hard. And I'm like, I just have to accept. I am the person who I'm not kidding. Again, had this conversation with Cardinal last week. Anybody who walks into my house walks away with something. A book, some food, a drink, something. I don't let people walk into my house without them leaving with something more than they can. in with. So that question of who do I take from, probably my village, my friends and my partner, because they force it upon me, right? Like they're like they're helping to rewire my brain to say like the giver can also receive. Yeah. That reminds me, Levy, of that part of professional troublemaker where you're talking about your grandma to whom that book is a tribute. And you were talking about in her late years, you know, this woman who had become so fiercely independent, her whole life was allowing herself to be taken care of for the first time.

And you wrote, the lifelong soldier had dropped the reins and allowed herself to be fully in the hands of someone else. It was a show of strength. If love is a verb, is there a greater show of love than to abdicate your very being to the person you raised well enough to hold you up? what is pride when we can have love shown to us instead? And to me, the what is pride when we can have love shown to us instead was like soul shifting for me because that encapsulates this whole conversation we've been having, right? If you think your worthiness is being in what you can offer, what you can prove, and you take your pride in that, it becomes a self-fulfilling way of living your whole life. And in the absence of that pride, in the absence of that offering, you feel like,

what am I even doing here? But when you compare it to like to love, where that might be your choice in any circumstance, it might be you can choose pride or you can choose love. Isn't that? So do you think it's pride, lovey? Do you think it's partly pride that keeps us hamster wheeling, um, afraid of not producing the next thing? Is it partly pride? a part of it is pride, but I think just a majority of it is fear of losing control. You know, I think that's also what it looks like when you have to receive something. You have to, when you're receiving, you're not the person in control in that moment. Yes.

Right? You're not the person who's calling the shots. And I always tell people, like, I write things and I create things that are actually speaking to me. So as you're speaking those words that I wrote back to me, I'm like, God, damn. me, that's real. Shit. Because it is something that I struggle with and I actively have to practice the willingness to like let go of control by being the person receiving and not the person giving, okay?

And by receiving that. And again, some of it is ego because you think you got the answers. You think you have it all together. But a lot of this is like I just don't, I'm not comfortable when I'm not the one in control. Giving as control. Yes. Yes. Yes. And receiving as love because love is the opposite of control. That's right. And receiving is

surrendering. Yes. Surrendering is hard. Again, so it takes us back to why I can't stop, right? If you actually stop, you have to surrender. You have to let go of control. You have to just trust something bigger than you for the next moment. But I'm like, run, run, run, run. So that surrendering is a struggle. It is a constant work in progress. This show is brought to you by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people

give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed in-network therapists, without all the runaround. You can browse without even making an account, and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience, whatever helps you feel understood.

Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97% say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people? Better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello-a-l-M-A-com slash W-E-C-A-N. Lovie, for those of us who have any sort of concept that there's some kind of bigger power, it's amazing, which we both do, it's so amazing that we are so crazy hamster wheeling. It's unbelievable, actually.

Because if we stop, we actually, do we believe that? I know. Because I actually believe if I am the one creating all of these things, if I'm not stopping ever to let the, the, the, the creator of things. Say, hey, how about this next? I don't know how they would get my attention. I'm too busy stressing about the next thing to listen for the next thing. Correct. That's because anxiety is real, okay?

Because type A is real because lifelong perfectionist is real. Lifelong purpose driven people are real. But yes, we say we believe this is higher power. I wear a cross around my neck have been since I was born, actually. And yet, I'm not surrendering to just let God do what he's going to do or she or them. You know what I mean? The universe align. I was in my basement the other day, and my mom, a long time ago, made my daughter this sign that said,

what would you do if you weren't afraid, which made me think of you, of course, because of the fear thing. And I think, you know, that sign is always made or that quote is always said, to inspire people to do big things. But my immediate thought was, I would stop. I would stop. If I were not afraid, I would stop. Damn. Oh, that's good.

That's it. Because here's the thing. I don't think I'm afraid of failure. I will always win. Right. I'm afraid of success and what comes with it. And all the things I've got to put in place because of it, all the things I'm not prepared for.

I never call myself an expert in anything. I never say like, oh my gosh, I got it all figured out. Even my book, I'm always like, listen, I wrote this for me. You just happen to be able to read it. But it's like the fear of, I don't know if I'm prepared for what is next is real. You do such a beautiful job telling us how to do better in every ways. I mean, my sister will call me and read your rant. How can the world do better in 2022?

Who are you sci-eyeing? Side-eye sorceress these days. Okay, hold on. Before we get into this, I just want to say, like, when we first met Lovey, we met her on, like, a nationwide tour, and she would do the same, because we all had our scripts that we would say every night. It was so much fun. And I had never heard of the concept side-eye until I met Lovey. And I just think that like some of your vocabulary is so important. So like make sure to include in all the story you talk about today, all of the fun little thing.

Side eye, fix your face. Well, Lovey Todd, you fix. Lovey, I have a problem. Oh, yeah. I have a problem. Okay. I can't not show how I'm feeling on my face all the time. Your face is an outside voice like mine is.

Yes. Yes. And face is an outside voice. So if somebody stood up on our stage, we were. We were all behind. We were all on stage together. And if somebody stood up on our stage and started to say something that I thought our audience wasn't going to like or whatever, my face would just look nasty. And then my face would be on a huge screen above. And Lovie, I wouldn't know it until Lovie would look at me and go, fix your face, Glennon. Fix your face, Glennon. And so it's a marriage shifting moment for me because, number one, you gave me language at. things that I could do that could help disengage Glennon from what was going on in her insides to maybe like cover it up just a touch, just a touch. She says it to me every day, Levy.

Fix your face, baby. So if you were going to say to the world, fix your face, how would we fix our face these days? Yeah. Well, first of all, anytime me and Glennon were sitting on the stage next to each other, it was a problem. Yes. It was a problem because then you have two of us on screen at the same time. one of us undoubtedly having a face that's just not it, right?

So there were other times when Glennon told me to fix my face like, because again, I have an outside voice. Me and I feel like Glenn is like my soul sister. Like we're so similar in so many ways. So me and her together is either disastrous in the best way. Actually, no, that's always that. That's it. It's disastrous in the best way.

It's disastrous in the best way. We both need supervision. So. And I feel like Abby and Carnell are our supervision. Okay. Yeah. Abby and Carnell should have a support group is what they. They really do.

They have a club. They really do. So what I'm telling the world to fix our face around because, yes, I am judging us. But here's the thing. Like the thing about judging is instead of us kidding ourselves and being like, I'm not, we're not judging. We're making judgment calls every single day. The problem is we're judging each other on the wrong things.

Right. We're judging each other on what we look like. and who we love or don't or what a deity we worship or don't. Instead, we should be judging each other on how to be better human beings. Okay, like how we're showing up to make this dumpster fire world less of a dumpster fire. And who I'm judging now, it's mostly the GOP who is like removing the rights of women who are not recognizing the humanity of people purely because they identify as a different gender. It's just so crazy.

I feel like we're moving backwards in this country in terms of decency. But I also feel like part of the reason why we've been able to move backwards is from the silence of quote unquote good people. It's from the people who enable fuck shit simply by just, oh, that's not my business. Oh, I can't say anything. Oh, you know, I'm not going to challenge that. That is how the world is a dumpster fire. And that's why I'm constantly judging, actually.

The people who identify as good people, but do not put action behind it. do not put voice behind it. Do not put money or time behind it. But what's good about you? Your apathy? That's not good. So, yeah, those are people who I'm constantly being like, yo, you're not doing your part. That's the your line of life is a one giant group project.

And our grade largely is dependent on other people's actions. It's like we are living in a group project. And half the people are like, just sit this one out. Someone's going to, someone's going to do the report. Someone's going to do it. You know what? that is why we are on the hamster wheel, Glennon, because the A students are having to pick up the slack for the F students

who just refuse to show up. And the A students are like, come the fuck on. Like, I did my part. I did my part of the project. Now I got to do yours. I don't even have the time for this. But then we still trying to do it. That's why we can't surrender because we're like,

but if I stop, who's going to keep going? I mean, that's why when you and I do any sort of group project together. Oh, my God. It's you and I at 2 a. on the call still. Yep. I'm like, y'all, I'm like, all right, let me send Loe some food because she has left her damn chair in three days. For 13 hours!

Yo, I just have to say again, let's actually go back to that. Okay. The group projects that me and Glenn have done together. At this point, I can count at least three. And I have to say, there's usually a point where I call Glennon, where I start just, She don't even get a hello. I just start cussing on the phone. When I'm just like, what?

Like, she just speaks up on. I'm just like, why are people awful? Why are people trash? Every single time. And she's like, I know. So we have like 20 minutes we were just cussing at the state of the world and people and why we hate people and we love them at the same time. Yes.

And that you guys continue to engage and said group projects amazes me. I'm like, but okay. So, but she, because Lovie, here's, because Lovie is judging people. But what the thing is that I love so much is that the reason that she keeps judging, it's like the James Baldwin thing about like, I love America and because I love America, it is my duty to ceaselessly criticize her. Like, it's like that with you. It's like you would not continuously and relentlessly show up and insist upon better if it didn't come from a. love a belief that we can all create something better here. There's no apathy there.

Here's the thing is, I mean, what it means to be a disruptor is not just the person standing on the corner being like, I don't like that. That's not cool. You have to be trying to put some skin in the game. You can't just critique the world, but what part are you doing to be a part of the change?

Which is why I end up doing more group projects, right? because I'm like, I don't like what's happening. Instead of being on the sideline complaining, I got to do something. So it's to do something where that happens. But I think we go against people who wise are not clear, right? We go against people who are not sure why they do what they do, who don't have values that are very concrete. And then we have to fight against that.

We have to like position it and shift it. and make sure it's in the right place. Like I am usually the person who will come back and say, hey, I don't think this direction is working. Or we're leaving some people behind. Or we're not asking the right questions. And the frustration is in the love of like, let's fix it. That's why the difference between being a disruptor and a cynic

is the risk you put in of your belief. It could be better. Oh, that's good. That's, you know, it's easy to be a cynic and be like, everything is trash. That's not what you are. Because that person is removed and safe from the distance of having none of their heart in it. Right? Yep.

And the disruptor follows up. Like, Lovie, you know, it's saying the thing and then saying there needs to be a change here. And then offering Lovie and then the way Lovie does, offering. offering six creative solutions to that thing. And then having four people that she brings the table that says these people will help. And then still being on the call at 2 a.m. It's like not this. And here's what we're, I'm putting my blood, sweat, tears, energy, mind and soul behind changing it.

Absolutely. How do you know when that's enough? That was just going to say. What is enough? One day we were at something recently and I was up at 5 a.m. and doing something on the computer. I don't know what, writing something or... And Abby sat down next to me with a cup of coffee and she said,

do you know that we are not going to destroy the patriarchy? Like, singularly not going to... She was dead serious. And I was like, what? And she was like, just us. We're not going to fix this. And it might never. You're not just one...

You're not one project away from fixing this. You are never going to fix this. And Lovie, for a full day, I was like, what? Like, it was as if I was actually living with the idea that we were just like one group project away, that we were like so close. And this idea of, oh, my God, I have to figure out how to take care of my life and each other and still engage, but not live that way. Yeah, because how do you...

We're part of the long game. game here. Like we are in terms of our like little short lives like this whatever 60 70 80 100 years if we're lucky. Like that's a that's a snap in terms of the timeline of humanity. So what we're working on is something we might never ever see fixed. Right. Like how do you stay motivated to stay on that that that rat wheel? But take care of yourself too and have a beautiful life because everybody deserves to have join now and peace now. I will tell you one of my purposes

and why it's a selfish purpose. So I feel like one of my life purposes is to recruit more professional troublemakers in the world. It's to create them to affirm them. Why? Well, one, I'll tell you what a professional troublemaker is. A professional troublemaker is not the cynic.

They're not the troll. They're not the chaotic person. The contrarian. They're the person who feels this deep compulsion to make a change for good. They're the person who is speaking up in the meeting. They're the friend who has a tough conversation with you. They're the person who says,

you know what, I'm going to do or say the hard thing. Why I called my book professional troublemaker is because I wanted some people to see themselves in it and I wanted it to shock some people because it is a good thing for us to be troublemakers. I think about, you know, the late great John Lewis who said be necessary to make good trouble. And his life is the testament of making good trouble.

Now, my purpose is to recruit more professional troublemakers so that, Glennon, you're not fixing the patriarchy. But if 100,000 people can say, I am going to be a part of the fix, maybe the 100 years becomes 80, you know, maybe eight generations, not 15. So because selfishly, I want to be able to say, you know what, today my job is not to fix the patriarchy or racism or transphobia. It's your job today because you're chilling right there. The more of us who are committed to doing this work, the less time it will take.

The more of us can rest, okay, and take breaks because somebody else will pick up the baton. But what happens is everybody is constantly waiting for somebody else to do the work, right? Everybody's waiting for Superman when they also have red capes. So it's like, how about it? everybody thought they were superman. Everybody, all of us, says it is my job. So then when Glennon is sitting at home and goes, I don't want to do this today,

you don't have to think, well, shoot, nobody's doing the work. Somebody else is always there to pick it up. So that is why I'm like, I want to recruit more people in the world to feel convicted, not just compelled, convicted, to want to do something, say something, be an actionable part of change.

Because listen, a lot of people are exhausted. A lot of people decide to take a day off or a month off or sabbaticals. Hell, I want to be a librarian in Ohio for like six months one day. I don't know. Oh, are you serious? That's my, I want to work at a small bookstore and that's what I want to do. Every day I think that's my dream. Where nobody knows me. Yes. Right. Right. But I'm like, who's going to be truth telling. So this. Who's going to be side on people and tell them on the fixed their face? The people that you were going to be true telling. Yeah. Correct. Yes. And that is why. I'm like, and that is why. And that is why I'm also creating baby armies. That's why I created

Rice and Troublemaker for the teens, because I want them to also pick up the baton for us. Can we talk about that? Yeah. Let's talk about that. Because you and I have had conversations about what you talk about being a disruptor and being a troublemaker out in the world. But what we have learned with our

life recently is this very interesting thing that when you model for kids what that looks like, as we have tried to model for our children, they start to become a interesting kind of troublemaker, which is that they start to notice and call out toxic patterns, not just out in the world where you taught them to do it, but inside their own damn home.

Even worse. Yes. Okay? Levy, you know, I mean, I have had, we have had some really things I'm not even ready to talk about in public, our little most sensitive kid is our troublemaker. Yes. She would never break a rule out in the world. But she calls out things in our patterns in our family that we long ago, Lovie, made an unwritten

pack to not speak up. Okay. That's tish. She knows. Yes, Tish, I stand. I stand. Yeah, and Lovie, that's why your book, your new book for teens and tweens is so freaking important because these kids, the troublemakers are the canaries and the coal mines, right? They're the ones who speak up, not just out there, but in systems in your home and break patterns.

Yeah. And I tell you that I wanted to write the, write as a troublemaker for teens because teenagers, are the troublemakers of the world, right? But what happens is it gets beaten out of them, abused out of them, insulted out of them. I think the truest version of ourselves is before that happens.

So what happens if we catch them before they are broken out of who they really are and say, continue being that person? I need you to continue using your voice. I want you to continue being different. I want you to be too much. And like, yes, have people be like, she's different. Yes, you're welcome.

Right? What happens if we don't have to unlearn who everybody else wants to? wanted us to be. That's right. Like the power of if somebody at 12 or at 13 is told who you are right now as odd and weird as you want to be is amazing. We would not be 35, 36, 37 looking for who we are. So it was important for me to write that book. And when I came to your house and I got to sit with them for three hours and talk to these brilliant world leaders, right? I was like, oh my God, yes. What you guys are doing that's magical

is that you are giving them the permission to just be. Yeah. And that in itself is revolutionary. That isn't itself something that we did not have the privilege of having. I happen to have it because of my grandmother because, I mean, I had a mom who insisted like she'd let me be this person. So I was like, what is the thing that 17-year-old, 16-year-old, 12-year-old Lovie what are the things that would be good for her to know,

which would confirm her journey, right? As opposed to her being like, yeah, I'm still going to be myself. It's kind of weird because everybody thinks I'm different, but I mean, I'm still going to do it. But what if she hears, I need you to do that? Like, it's not even an option. I want you to do it.

I welcome you to do it. I will support you and have your back in it. This is the way you are supposed to move. So Chase, Tish, like, in talking to them, they inspired me to really go, yes. like what does it look like for other kids to get that affirmation before something traumatic happens, before they have to unlearn all these things about themselves that nothing was wrong about. It was just people were uncomfortable with it.

Children are not actually supposed to tow the line because they're from a whole new place. So they're supposed to be leading us somewhere forward. Yeah. That's why I think this, I just, you know, I told you long ago, I just think that you're, message is of insane importance right now, especially as we go into whatever the new normal is, because I think that in corporations, in families, in schools, in every institution, we have gotten to a point where we understand that the dissenters are the ones who will save us. If people don't start, if families, institutions don't start creating cultures, where dissent is

celebrated, they're all going to go down because they're all families and every institution is run by old ways of thinking. Yeah, it's just a matter of time. And so if you silence people, you're screwed later. That's right. That's right. Right. The world we live in was built by troublemakers, was built by people who saw the way things were and said, that's not going to work. Like, we fly in 10 cans in the sky. At some point, some point. Some people. was like, maybe horse and buggy is not the move, right? And then probably somebody else is probably like, you're crazy. That's wild.

I'm going to be my horse and bugging. This person was like, no, I feel like we can get places faster. And I'm sure along the ways, everybody thought this person was insane. The world we live in was built by people who saw the box and said the box is not enough. The box is not going to do. Let's blow the box up and build something else. So when we are against dissenters and trouble. makers and disruptors, I'm like, that means you're against growth and innovation. Innovation,

whether in tech, business, media, families is from the people who say, let's do something different. So instead of us constantly, like, punishing people, let's actually celebrate them and say, you know what? Yes, everything is right for disruption. The world we live in was built by disruptive individuals who created disruptive systems, disruptive ideas. And that's how we have the best things we have. We're speaking. We're like on the Jetson situation right now. Somebody thought that was possible. I'm like, we're talking.

We're not in the same room. And I see you and I hear you. And I'm like, wow. I know. Amazing. Technology was built by disruptors. People who were like, yo, we've gone to the moon, guys. Like a challenger did that.

So I just want us to start getting used to whether it's in our homes, where it's actually really important. Here's the other thing, too. Don't be a troublemaker out in public. and you are at home dealing with foolishness. Who you are in public, better match who you are in private. So don't make Facebook statuses about racism. Meanwhile, you cross the street when a black person walks by you.

What was the status for? So I love the fact that you have kids who are like, no, no, no. In the house, I'm going to start here because that's actually most important. I don't want us to think about like making the world better by just writing checks. What are we doing about the house we live in, about the people we live in, about the people we know and love, who we have access to. Like, part of the ways that I've built really deep relationships is I always tell my friends, my family members, that I'm always available for feedback.

You can always tell me when I did something wrong and I'll say, oh my God, I hear you. I'm so sorry. That for me matters more than the person who's outside and caps, caps, caps, caps, caps. And on Twitter or Facebook, Glenn, being able to text me something is way more important than 10 people tell me something on social media. It does not land just because I don't know you, but I know Glennon or I know this other person. They come directly to me. So in the same way, it is time. It is time that we start celebrating, creating, affirming the troublemakers because when we don't, dumpster fires happen like we are in now. So I love, I want, I want the kids to get this.

And I'm so, y'all are raising all these troublemakers, which means they're going to create other troublemakers, which means this world would be better for it simply because you have the revolutionary stance of letting them be who they are. And that, that is significant. It's a new year and instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my space to feel calmer, more functional and a little more like a place. that can reflect my goals and energy for this year, which is why I've been turning to Wayfair.

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Head to wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. I love the fire of the troublemaker, but then I love how you talk about it. about the softness, which feels like the water part of it to me, which is, and I have all of these things to say, and I'm saying them with fire, and I am always open for feedback. That feels so important to me. There's so few people that actually feel like they are truly open for feedback.

It's so scary to tell people when they've hurt you or how do you do that, Levy. You do do that. Recently you told me about you were in a real conversation with somebody that you had had a long relationship with and you were telling the person that you were hurt. How do you enter conversations with people that you actually know in love? Because that kind of trouble making is hard. It's a form of disruption. It's the hardest people we don't like. It's harder. I mean, I've had conversations on this podcast about my marriage that I haven't had with my husband. You know, it is easier. It is easier than in the closest places, you know. That's the hardest part. It's the hardest part. And I have to say, you have to have hard conversations with full vulnerability.

Full, like uncomfortable, the naked vulnerability, where you start the conversation by saying how hard it is to have this conversation. You know, where you go. So I've been sitting. on this for three weeks and I've been thinking about it and it's really hard for me. Talk about tough things. So allow me to say this and I hope you receive this in the heart that's intended. Just know this is really hard for me.

But I think it's really important. So I'm going to just push past by discomfort and I'm going to tell you anyway. Like full vulnerability. Just come with your imperfect self and just tell this person, I don't want to do this. This is not fun for me. I've sat on this for three weeks. I've procrastinated on it. I've thought about the words.

But here I am anyway. I'm just going to show up anyway and take me as I am. One, it gets the person ready to hear something difficult. Because you don't want to go in and all my, like, all right, so you just piss me off. That's in that moment where you're being vulnerable, you're actually priming them to start hearing you that something tough is coming. So it's not a blind side.

And then in it, they also know that like this, that you're doing, you don't want to do it. So the fact that you're doing it is necessary. And it buys you a little bit more time. Yeah. Even the 30 seconds, more courage. It buys you a little bit more time. And you go, okay, let's have this conversation. Here's what I do, practically, whenever I need to have a tough conversation. I will write it down first. I will come into the conversation with my own bullet list of points I want to make. Why? Because when I get emotional, I can get derailed very quickly. I might want to focus on one issue becomes eight. Next thing, you know, the first issue that was actually bringing to you, and even that.

So I actually know me, to that own self be true, right? So I will have my bullet list and I say, okay, I want to talk to you about these things. Let me finish before you say something, because I want to make sure I get through it and then let's talk it through. Do you actually have the list with you or do you just keep it in your mind? No, I have the list with me. Oh my gosh, that is amazing. I have the list with me. So if the person's done in the same room as me, I typically like to have tough conversations on camera, so I video called them. So I have lists on my computer. If the person is in the room with me, I will have either the notes on my phone. And I'll say, I'm looking at my phone, not because I'm texting, but I have my notes on here. And the person

goes, okay, this is how I even do with my husband. He knows. But I need to have a tough conversation, it's most productive when I have something written down. If I come to him off the jump, it's not going to go well because I'm going to get real raggedy. It's terrible. So, I get real bogus and raggedy. I'm like my mouth, my mouth, okay, my bad. So I come with the notes and then I talk and then we can go back and forth. And it's like really logical. Whenever I'm really upset and I want to have a tough conversation, I also slow down how I talk.

I am actually very deliberated and intentional, especially when I'm feeling emotional, because I want to make sure I don't ruin or break something that can't be fixed because of impulsivity or because of my mouth or because in that moment I feel like being petty. So I'll slow down how I'm talking. I'll say, okay. So how I'm feeling, literally like this, how I'm feeling is me who typically is like fast talking, I get real slow. And I say, okay, here's how I'm feeling.

Here's how this thing hurt me. I feel like, and I get real slow. And then the person is like, all right, got it. So if the conversation does not go well, it's not because I blew up the box. what is something in your marriage that you're trying to do better this year? That's a good question. So remember how I said, I need to write everything down?

I also suck at listening sometimes. Like, especially, I'll go, okay, I got to focus. I got to focus. What you got to say here? I'm like, I'm here with you. I'm here with you. Next thing you know, I'm like, squirreling with my to-do list. I'm like, oh.

But he just said the last 20 seconds. Oh, missed it. Damn it. So I'd be like, can you write it down for me? Like, I'm actually trying to be a more active listener for when he's talking to me in those moments where I don't go in my head and start going, but like, come on. Tell him to text it or tweet it. But Lovey, that's part of receiving. It's part of receiving.

When you're talking, you're in control, you're offering, you're, I'm giving you the business. There's the, it's surrender. It's nothingness in the listening. It's the listening. I am actively trying to be like a better. listener for him because he's actually become a better communicator, right? He's become a better. Our therapist was like, he's actually more emotionally available than you. I was like, I was like, it's true. Lovey is mouth open, completely shocked right now. If you. I was like,

gas. I like clutch my pearls. And I was like, I don't even have pearls, but I'm clutching them. But she's right. I was like, I can't even argue that fact. Because like, he's a better listener, sometimes a better like communicator when it's time to receive information. And I'm over here like, okay, I got to do better at that. So again, as I'm judging the word, I'm judging myself too in this moment, like the intentional fixes of my own thing. Like how am I making trouble my own marriage? I got to be a better listener so I can be more present. So I can like receive better, surrender better. Okay, let go of control more. Yeah.

The takeaways from that. I freaking love that I think sometimes we think, well, if I'm going in with my closest person, I can just free form. I can just. And then we end up bringing our worst selves to each other. I love that you, because it's like whenever I leave a hard conversation feeling bad about myself, it's because I lost my shit. I didn't stick to the plan.

I got emotional. And then I feel guilty and worse afterwards. It just happened to me yesterday. I just, and then I have to apologize and do all the things. I hear this. However, I do think it's important that for those of us who want to have an intentional, important conversation, that sometimes your script or your list isn't really getting to the truth is truth of it all because it's just only one-sided.

So to me, I think it's really important what you said minutes ago about. being this disruptor and also being open to feedback, there's this surrender in terms of those conversations. So yes, you can have a plan. Yes, you can have an intention. But there also has to be surrender within that. Yes. Yes. 100%. Correct. So here's the thing is it's important to have surrender within a framework. Why? Because again, I had a conversation with him where I did not bring my list where like somewhere in the conversation my brain shut off from listening and it just became defensive defensive I was not receiving anything and I just started spying off at the mouth so the next day I'm reconnecting to my girlfriends I was in WhatsApp and one of my

friends goes she gave me like three minutes she let me like rant for three minutes and she comes back and she says so you know you have to apologize right now I was like what what do you mean I'm feeling petty right now why am I apologizing for anything why Why? And she was like, ma'am, if you don't go apologize, you went too hard. And I was like, but I'm feeling petty. Like, I don't feel like being a big person right now. She was like, your assignment in the next hour is to go apologize because you were wrong.

You might have started with issues that made sense for you, but the way you handled it did not make sense. And I was like, ugh, I hate when she's right. And I had to go apologize, right? So again, receiving the feedback. back, being able to get those from people who you trust. And then at that point, I received it, and I heard. And I said, okay. And I went back and said, here's what I said, that was not okay. Here's why it was not okay. Here's how I will try to mitigate this next time. And I am sorry, because I did get to a point in our conversation where I was not listening to you. I was not

receiving anything you were trying to give me. And that's where it went wrong. So, yeah, give and taking that way. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? Not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking, I can't keep doing it like this. You're not alone. Strawberry.me is career coaching that helps you get to the real root of your burnout, whether it's workload, boundaries, a tough manager, or feeling disconnected from the

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I just think it's interesting because on the issues of surrender and trust and communication, the part of your book that clicked for me was about none of those things. It was the part where you were talking about how you don't share your first name outside of your house. You say that you stopped when you came to America and you started a school in the U.S. for the first time. You said you stopped using your name because people, and you still don't. You still only use it in your home because people made it ugly and heavy. I wanted to protect it fiercely. When people used it, it took on a sound that was unrecognizable. And that for me is so much of why we don't share. When I tell you my experience, when I tell you how I feel, like you, you return it back to me in a way that is unrecognizable to what I feel in my bones.

And there is nothing that makes you feel lonelyer than that. Yes. Yep. Wow. Yeah. And so I think that's why when people share, I'm always shocked by defensiveness. I mean, I get it, but it's like, are you kidding me? You've just been gifted with a trust that 99% of the world doesn't have.

Because most people will just decide they're done with you, will never disclose anything vulnerable to you because of that fear that when you return it to them, it's ugly and heavy and unrecognizable. And I think that's why we don't do it because it's so hard. It's so hard to have someone we love say, okay, so this is what I hear you saying. And if it's 1% off, we're like, you don't know me and no one will ever know me. No one will ever know me. I thought we were in community.

Right. Yeah. And I think marriage, deep friendships, like deep friendship. I don't care about your point. Deep friendships require that type of sharing and vulnerability and failure because you will drop the ball on somebody's feelings, especially the people you're closest to are who you will drop their feelings more often than not.

So how do you make it safe for them to do it again? Right. And I think that's where the apologizing comes in. It's what my therapist calls repairing. It's not that we had the argument. That's not what matters the most. It's how we finished it, how we buttoned it up, how we repaired it, how we came back together. So we can bust and fight, whether it's friends or partners.

But at what point did the fight end in with, but I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I'm sorry that I did this thing that did not honor you. I'm sorry that I stepped outside of my own integrity. and did something that made you feel unheard, unseen, unaffirmed. And I think that's what's important about anything. Like, I'm trying to be a better friend. And when I call somebody a friend, I mean it. Because when I call you a friend,

it means I'm taking some responsibility for your care. Right? Which is why I can't call everybody my friend. If I say that as my friend. That was big. I am taking some. responsibility for your care. And I take that seriously. So you are all my friends. And I've said that to you. Like, I don't use that word lightly because it means like, now I have to put some

skin in the game for your well-being. Okay. Levy, I want to ask you, if you were going to tell our precious pod squad, just one little thing, one next right thing that they could do to just fight fear in their lives. Like just today. And it's called we can do hard things, but let me just be clear that we really mostly like easy things. Okay. So not a huge hard thing.

Just like a little thing in our everyday lives that we could do to fight that fear voice inside of us and kind of shift the wind. Like drinking water is one that I love. So like if drinking water is a two, We go to a four. I don't know. I think drinking water is hard and also really good for you. I think so.

I don't drink enough. One thing that somebody can do today to help them fight their fear. Man, I want you to give yourself permission to fail. What does that mean? Whether it's having the tough conversation, maybe it's not going to go well. Whether it's asking your boss for a raise. I think that's an important thing because when you give yourself

the permission to fail, the fear becomes less, it's less daunting. If you're like, I might not do it. But I'm going to try anyway. It becomes less of a dragon. Slave the dragon, okay?

And you're giving yourself permission to fail and you're also giving yourself permission to try in the pursuit of this permission to fail. I love that. Just be like, it might not go well. It's fine. Nobody dies. Oh, I love that.

It's fine. So, yeah, just give yourself permission to fail today. That's like the Bart Simpson thing I always liked. At least to try, that jiff. Exactly. And then he was always like, I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try. I feel that. I feel that deeply.

Yes. I love talking to you so much, Levy. You're just a really important person in my life and sister's life and Abby's life. We care for you deeply. we call you a friend and we would like to have skin in the game about your care. Okay? We are grateful for your time here and everyone's going to be really excited to know that Levy's going to be back answering our questions.

So when life gets hard this week, don't forget, you're free to fail. Yep. And you can do hard things. We love you. See you back soon. Love you. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle.

I've got to be a final destination they've stopped asking directions to places they've never to be like can do a heart a brand new star sometimes things fall hard People are free

And it took some time But I'm finally fun Because we're adventurers and heart breaks On that destination We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved We'll find so hard to play.

Never been. And too big and do. Yeah. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.

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