We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 65. How Do We Make–and Keep–Good Friends?

Episode Date: January 27, 2022

1. How chronic social isolation throughout the pandemic has impacted our friendships–and why that’s affecting our mental health and cravings for connection. 2. Glennon, Amanda, and Abby each make a Next Right Thing plan for prioritizing friendship in their lives. 3. How we grieve a friendship ending when there’s no cultural template or ritual to acknowledge that deep loss. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everybody! You came back! Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We are proving that we can do hard things by talking for significant amounts of time about things we know nothing about. That issue this week being friendship. Friendship. Why? How? When? Who? I mean, it's just such an interesting thing to discuss right now because, wow, is this a doozy of a time in human history in terms of everything? One being connection. And like how, if connection, we were talking so much in the last episode, if we are living with anyone, in an unhealthy way, probably, right? Just to be totally solely dependent on a few people. And then just so isolated from friendships we're used to, from community. How are you doing, Sissy?

What do you think of all of this? When everything started in 2020, there was a little bit of like a kind of, it was horrible and sad, but you had like some energy. You had some like Rosie the Riveter situation where you're like, I can do it. I can pull through and gather my resources and my people and we can find a way. And like a bazillion teen years later, and we're still going through it. It just feels like surrender Sarah. It's just like, it's just like, what even, why? No, this is just life now. It's just like a wall, man. It's a wall. And I think that, I think that actually the social isolation has been this kind of creeper that we haven't really registered. I mean, obviously, it's been the overwhelming stress. It's been the having to reinvent and invent our lives.

It's been fear for our families. It's been all of this. But I think a silent player in this has been what we didn't recognize was fortifying us through the other times, you know, these connections, these kind of everyday interactions, and also the reliance on these ritualized connections with friends, the disappearance of that, because we culturally don't value it, mm-hmm, it disappeared silently, and we don't connect the kind of serious anguish that you know speaking only for myself we're going through right now I think a lot of it is attributed to that that's so interesting and especially as someone who I mean I think on the introvert scale, I'm probably a 10 being most introverted.

I can tell myself, and I hear a lot of people saying this in my little, you know, highly sensitive introvert community of people. We really believe that these are the conditions that we actually need to thrive. And I really think that even me, even an introvert 10, I have not been doing very well lately, just psychologically, daily. I think I have finally proven to myself that I actually do need other human beings in some form, not just in pages of books, not just on my computer, but actual human beings. Because I think you're right. I think that's one of the major traumas of right now.

I was writing a thing the other day about how we all need to, you know, the idea that everyone just keeps saying, I'm so over it. I'm so over it. Well, okay. Being so over it does not in fact make it over. Like there's no amount of angst and anger and apathy that we can have that will then result in a pandemic just being over. And that's part of the Sarah surrender thing. Even though we don't have any more capacity to deal with this, we still have to because it's still existing. I was writing about that and I put out the like, we have to keep showing up for each other because we belong to each other. It was like, who's the we? I have forgotten who the we is.

When we're out in the community, when we're seeing other people, when we're connecting, even when those people annoy us, even then whatever, there's this idea of the we that is kind of what keeps you going. And now it's just without seeing each other, without looking each other's eyes, the we is gone. And then I think the we has actually crumbled a little bit because of what's really seems like a failure of direction of guidance of good decision-making of it feels like this every man for themselves mentality. And so the every man for themselves mentality mentality the constantly having make decisions without any guidance the feeling like you're an island and then you're actually being an island right we don't have any of the things that get our resilience activated it feels much like a

perfect storm it's like what is that Like exhaustion makes cowards of us all. It's like, we are so physically, emotionally, spiritually exhausted. We are, we are hope starved. We are, and then we are in the ecosystem of social interaction. We're at this really crisis point, even introverts. So the, I think it's worth drilling in on that because I think we have so, we have a disproportionate number of introverts, I would guess, that listen to this podcast. And I think that as you're saying, when you didn't identify, you're saying, this is great for me for the first X amount of time, because you don't have that, that need as much as others. I think even for folks like you, we're hitting a crisis.

And, and so I think it's interesting to talk about. So this professor Kay Tai, she discovered that we all have a social set point that is like similar to hunger where we have, you know how like with hunger or temperature or thirst, our brain circuits, our whole being is, has its own like set point. So I know I am satiated when I eat this. I know that I'm not thirsty anymore when I have this. There's a thing called social homeostasis where it's, we have a drive to seek out balance of that. And I have always felt like a bad friend because I don't crave the things that I think that good friends crave. I don't crave getting on the phone and calling someone. I don't crave making a coffee date. I always thought they were good friends.

There were people who were good who got excited about those things. I feel resentful and annoyed and burdened by those things. When I know that I have a coffee date, all I do is pray that someone cancels the coffee date. Same. Game of chicken every time. Just if I wait it out, maybe they'll cancel and then I can get credit for not canceling. Game of chicken. Yes. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So I've always been, well, clearly the only rationale

for that is that I am an asshole who doesn't deserve friends anyway, since all I want is to not ever do anything with friends. And it doesn't have anything to do with liking them or not. I very much like them. Why don't you want to then? I think it's very similar to like exercise and any of these other things where I don't ever want to do the thing, but after I do it, I feel good and it's doing good things for my mind and soul and body, but my cravings are not aligned with my needs. And the interesting thing about that is that there is no should social amount. Exactly. So can we talk about that? Because is that it? It's like, as a culture, we have defined mental health. We have defined physical health. We know as human beings that if we want to have a healthful capacity in that certain area, we have to do certain things that we do not necessarily crave. We have lists of things that we can check off that we have done to address our mental health, to address our physical health? Is there another realm that needs to be explored and planted in people to understand

that friendship health is a whole nother thing that we have to contribute to? I have a hypothesis listening to you too. What is it? Because I would say that I fall in similar categories of like not having a ton of friends. Okay. As you two. Do you think this could have something to do with motherhood martyrdom? In that friendships, like so if we had a priority list of things that you needed to get done in a day, you've got kids stuff, work stuff, and kids stuff, work stuff, kids stuff, work stuff, maybe some health and wellness and care, self-care in there. Do you think friendships

are like a privilege that gets put at the end of that list for women more especially? Because I don't, quite frankly, I don't see a lot of men out there going, having a struggle with the relationship with friends. It's actually not true. Men have more of a struggle. You don't hear it because they're not talking about it. One in five men can't identify a single good solid friend. Wow. That is so tragic. It is very tragic and it is a problem. You know, I was so proud of Craig. I actually, a problem. You know, I was so proud of Craig.

I actually, did you see on Instagram? He, right on New Year's Day or something, he posted a few pictures of him with some friends at different times of the year. And he said, my intention for 2022 is to foster and nurture my friendships. I mean, listen, this guy at New New Year's Eve party. Oh, yeah. He had New Year's Eve party, which was very social distance

and only a few people. One of his friends came up to me and said, you know, Craig has just been, like I was his parent or something. Craig has just been such an addition, such a great addition to our friend group. And I was like,

what a compliment. Freaking Craig Milton getting the compliment of all compliments. Yeah, he's the best. He's such a dear friend. But I mean, it's an example of being of a guy being vulnerable enough to value and, you know, publicly state that they want to value friendship. And I think it's probably harder for men for men too because it's not just about finding the time it's about finding the vulnerability talk about not having a structure they're not even allowed to talk about the real things that human beings need to talk about to make friendship

helpful like your actual life and your actual pain and your actual vulnerability and your actual struggles you know men have weather and work weather and work in pain and your actual vulnerability and your actual struggles, you know, men have weather and work, weather and work in sports and sports. Yeah. I think Glenn, what you're saying about like, is there a cultural understanding we need to develop to get the value of social connection in our lives? I think as a society, we don't value it, but I also think it becomes problematic because then you run into this world where like introverts and extroverts and me feeling like I must be an asshole because I don't want to get together all the time to do this thing. And so I think it's important to say, and I felt very relieved to learn this, but like each one of us has a very

individualized social homeostatic set point, right? So you think of it as a hunger. Like some people will eat two bowls of pasta and they're like, no, I'm good. Some people eat smaller amounts like that. The same thing applies to a social isolation starts to deteriorate our brain, our body very, very quickly for each of us. But that how quickly that happens depends on how introverted or extroverted we are because our introversion and extroversion sets that socio homeostatic set point. So like, it's interesting because like the way the mind

works. So you, if you have a little bit Glennon,on, as an introvert, if you have a little bit of social isolation, your body will automatically crave that just like hunger. And you will crave out some kind of connection and you will get it because it's a natural part of your body's craving. because it's a natural part of your body's craving. But your body will dump a lot of dopamine when you get that social interaction so that you don't need a lot of social interaction. So like brief, infrequent social interactions for you, you're craving satiated. You're good.

You're like, I literally am good. So when you ask me to do this other thing I don't want to do, I am resentful because I don't need it the way you need it. It's like you're keeping serving me over and over again. And I already said I'm full. Exactly right. Whereas I'm being over-served.

I'm being over-served. And in fact, you're asking me to meet because you know, the secret resentment that you always have where like, basically I'm being over served. And in fact, you're asking me to meet because you know, the secret resentment that you always have where like, basically I'm doing something for you. It's in fact true because they actually need more. They crave more. So you are meeting their need by being with them. So like they have, because they get a lower dopamine dump out of every social interaction, they need more frequent. So they are extroverts. Yeah. So if they have a higher level of extroversion, they need more. I think it's also helpful to understand each other. Like

a, that helps me understand, like there's nothing wrong with me. My brain circuits just require less of that. And then for, if I have a friend who doesn't understand why I only want to get together every third time, maybe it's like, oh, it's not that I don't love you just as much as they do. It's that I don't, I, that's not what my body is asking for. Yeah. You can be my favorite food, but if I'm already stuffed, I can't, I don't want any more. How are we to to know if this is social anxiety or introversion? Like it to me, it feels like a little bit that it's like an excuse making also for social anxious people. Like, I think that you're a social anxious people person, Glennon, and also an introvert. So like, how do you know which is the difference and when to push and when to not?

Yeah, because I think it's important that you still get interaction, even if it doesn't feel 100 percent like. It's such a good question in terms of like, so how do you know when what's good for you? What amount is good for you? Like, is it all based on how you feel? Because it's not necessarily that way when it comes to mental health or physical health. Like, I feel like I don't want to go for a walk. Every time. Right. And every time you feel like you don't want to go to dinner or you don't want, you know, but like when they leave, you're like, that was so great. Well, it could be this crisis point we're in because this is the rub is that our self-regulation of our cravings only

works in typical times when, when we're having this chronic level of social isolation, it stops working. So listen to this. You know how like you eat when you're hungry, you eat when you're hungry. Once you've been fasting, your body doesn't crave the food the way your body craved pre-fast. The exact same thing happens in our bodies. So right now, we have been restricted from social contacts that we would prefer to have. And we are so socially isolated that we are out of our set points. And that is developing the elevated stress hormones, all of the negative effects and the craving is not happening. That's true. That rings true to me.

That me too. Do you know what, you know, what you're saying in fancy words is what I have been feeling the last couple of weeks. And the best way to describe it is dead inside. Yep. Yeah. I just feel absolutely dead inside. Nothing that I do that would normally bring back the magic of the day or like, you know, give me a boost or like just feeling everything. It's like, we're fine. I'm going through the motions, but I'm utterly dead inside. And so that's what, okay. So on that positive note, I would like for us to move into discussing. In the last episode,

we talked about how we're all three kind of deciding that we do want, we believe it. We believe the hype about friendship being good for us and adding layers of magic and goodness. The hype, also science, but the hype about friendship being good for us and adding, you know, layers of magic and goodness. The hype. Also science. Well, to me, it's hype. The course of true love doesn't always run smooth. She got really like upset and then I got super upset and we were like screaming

at each other. I'm Dr. Laurie Santers and in a special Valentine's Day season of my podcast, The Happiness Lab, we'll explore the science of making our intimate relationships more harmonious. This is like the worst possible way to spend a relaxing vacation. Journalist Charles Duhigg will help us all become super communicators. Everyone knows that experience, right? When you've had a great conversation and you just feel like you're on cloud nine afterwards. And we'll hear from husband and wife relationship experts, the Gottmans. I turned the phone off.

You didn't turn it off. On why we should argue better. I did, yeah. Uh-uh. Listen to The Happiness Lab wherever you get your podcasts. Happiness Lab, wherever you get your podcasts. I want to talk to the three of us about what each of us are going to do. Like why, what we've told ourselves in terms of why we haven't been able to have friendships in our lives. And now what we're kind of like next right thinging, because I feel like all three of what we're kind of like next right thinging,

because I feel like all three of us have been kind of deciding, we're going to try something new because we want this. In order to get a different result, you have to try something different, right? Definition of insanity. Right. So like, what are we going to try differently to build, begin to build this incredible, like building block of life which is friendship so what have you told yourself babe about why you haven't been able to be a good friend and what are you going to do differently so I'm gonna say some some words and just just hear me out. Okay. As a soccer player, everything that I did was all about me and it was a very selfish exploration. Um, and in order to do it at that level, I, I do believe that I had to, to think about myself and my life as this very rare and very exclusive kind of life. I was traveling the world.

I got to play in front of amazing. I got to do amazing things. And so it gave me this excuse, I think. And the story I have is that I'm a bad friend, but I had this noble cause, this noble reason for being this bad friend. So I didn't have this consistency with my life and I was always gone. So being on the road all the time. And I do live a very present life. You do, you do. So, so you're, you're so present in the moment that you're not thinking about other things. And it does make me forget

about thinking about my friends the whole of my life. So I don't know. I, I, I was horrible at keeping in touch with people because of, I think, the person that I am. And I always just thought, well, I'm a bad friend in this way. I think because I'm not traveling as much, like that's been such a gift during this weird pandemic time. So I haven't been on the road. And still, I'm not staying in touch with my friends. Well, do you think, I mean, one of the things we've talked about is that

the maypole that we talked about in the other episode that you did have, I mean, when your friends from your soccer life talk about you, they talk about you in ways that are so beautiful, the way that you were friends to them and the way that you showed up for them. And I wonder if having the maypole of soccer is, you did have a special mission. You did have a special vehicle for friendship. And that is what a lot of people do. That's what book clubs are

about. That's what it's like. People create a structure that is around something that is important to them personally to create friendships. So is recreating a maypole what you need? You're not going to just think about them for no reason. Do you need a project? Yes. And because I think overall what I know about my happiness with friendships, I was happier. I had a happier friendship life during my playing days because we had this maypole. So a couple of years ago, this is literally before the pandemic in 2019,

I reached out to a couple of my former teammates to ask them to see if they wanted to run a marathon with me. We decided to do that. And then we went on this two-year escapade because of course, you know, the pandemic canceled the marathon in 2020. We ended up running it in 2021 in November. And so I understand now that sometimes like when life happens, you have to go out and create certain things to see, to see what works and what won't work. Because it's integrating your life. Sometimes I think in terms of a very busy life also, we don't have these huge chunks of time just to set aside for friendship. So I think it's a cool idea to think about what you need in your life and what you want in your life and what your curiosities are and your passions and then include friendship in those things.

So for you, that marathon running, that running, that physical commitment to a physical goal was something you would have been doing anyway. But you circled your friends into it because then this individual mission became a friendship building mission also. So it's combining the two. But what was interesting is that wasn't necessarily my intention at first. I wasn't capable of reaching into the whole of why I was doing it. I was really doing it because I just needed some help and some support in running. And then over the literal year and a half of the training bit, I mean, just this last week, we've been texting about families and, you know, aging parents and the struggle of our own personal mental health with small children during the pandemic and

had I not needed this help and accountability in my pursuit of wanting to run a marathon I could have I would have not could have I would have missed out on not just knowing other people, but like their lives are informative for me and in my life. Right. Like, and not that I've give them much or anything really, but sharing of story is so fucking important. And I don't know, like every time we get off of a text chain, you know, with my friends, my marathon, my former teammates, I should say my marathon friends now, I feel more full. I feel like, oh, we're sharing and we're caring about each other. And, you know, each one of us are in kind of different phases of our children's ages. And us folks who have children that are older and that have left the nest, like we are able to share a little bit of wisdom.

And those who are younger are able to make me understand, oh, small children and parenting small children right now is fucking brutal. Impossible. It's brutal. And the grace that we have to give parents is so important. And the grace that we have to give parents is so important. So this is all to say that the things that I want to be doing and learning about, I want to be inviting my friends into that. Because I think that that is, for me, the way to get to intimacy and friendship. It's like driving in the car, right? Like how you can have sometimes a better conversation, both looking forward without being

too, having to be forced to be too intimate. For me, that's what. That makes so much sense. Creating that maypole around some other thing. And, you know, like for instance, Katie, my friend, thing. And, you know, like for instance, Katie, my friend, Katie and I, like we would start, we started running, becoming friends, working out. And all we did was talk about our lives during our runs. And those were some of the most important runs that I've had over the last five years. Cause you got to express yourself and talk about, you know, family stuff and, and stuff that I was going through personally. Cool. Yeah.

So you're going to invite human beings that you want to be connected in into efforts and projects and interests that you have. Yeah. I want maybe to create some maples, some more maples in my life, whether it be around hobbies or things I'm learning, you know. So it's not the story you've been telling yourself is that you had this special thing going. So you couldn't be a good friend when in fact it might be the special thing. That's right. That allows you to be your best self for me and self. Yeah. For me. Like that's just my that's kind of my avenue. And it's so cool because it's kind of like, it just, that magic

just needs a vehicle, right? Cause the magic will flow, but, but you wouldn't have, we're not in touch enough with our needs to, on any given Tuesday, you're not going to call Katie and be like, I just need 45 minutes of your time so I can chat through this thing. But if you are in a flow of some kind of, you know, ritualized connection with somebody, whether it's a book club or running or whatever, then it flows just through that vehicle, which is cool. What about you, sister? What is your story and what are you going to do? Cool. What about you, sister? What is your story and what are you going to do? Um, well, I think that what I've told myself is that it's, it's, um, a lot to survive, that it is a lot to make it through the day and to be a mom and to be a partner and to be a sister and to be a writer and to be all these things.

And that's what I can do. I've looked at sections of life, you know, and been like, if I have mental health, I have physical health, I have work, I have family, and then there's friendship and maybe a couple other things I don't know about. I can do these few. and maybe a couple other things I don't know about. I can do these few. I'm going to do motherhood, right? You're doing so well. You're nailing it.

Nailing it, sister. I'm going to do my marriage. I'm going to do work. Do that well too. Thank you, babe. And that's what I'm going to do. And like, I'm okay, you know, being, letting go of that one section because I know my capacity. And if at the end of the day, I'm on my deathbed and, you know, it's just my family there, but I've had this good life in other ways, like, that'll be fine. I'll be cool with that.

cool with that. What I think I'm understanding truly listening to this last, listening to you and this conversation is that perhaps I'm not thinking about it exactly right, because perhaps I could be doing a better job or being happier inside of my mental, physical and familial health and work health. If I infused every area with friendship, if I didn't think of it as like a separate thing. So I think I'm going to try to, I think I've got like a wagon and what's it, a cart and a horse thing or something. I think I've gotten a little bit backwards. I do want to integrate friendship into my life. I also think that there's this interesting thing that happens when you have, when I had young kids, when you were talking about people in communities needing each other to survive,

I felt that when my kids were very little. Like I felt like I was losing my mind constantly and having friends or other moms around was necessary to my survival. And then when the kids get a little older, for some reason that just like goes away. And there's many reasons. There's less like immediate physical terror constantly, less physically taxing. You're sleeping a little bit more. Yeah. But also it's lonelier because when kids are little, they like all their problems are the same. You can talk about your kids in a way when your kids are little.

That when they become older and have their little individual personalities and their problems become their own and their lives become their own, that you can't talk about anymore with other people. Like it's lonely raising tweens and teens because they have, you know, the Venn diagram of what is their life and what is your life of what is childhood and what is parenthood is not one big circle anymore. It's like you don't get to share their stories anymore. And that is lonely for you because their stories are still your life, but not really. So it's your life, but it's not parts that you have the right to share so it's more isolating so then your kids get older older like ours and you find yourself with what they call it an empty nest but there is a bit of emptiness and it's not oh I see what you did there well I'm empty nested working it out loud I literally never thought of that before but it's it's it is an emptiness but it's not just literal and it's not bad like it's it's an emptiness in terms of space that can be filled

up with something else finally right like possibility possibility the i love emptiness like i love nothingness i think that's one of my favorite parts is of life is the nothingness because something is gonna swoop in it's interesting because especially when kids are little very little they feel like you and you feel like them yeah Yeah. Right? And as they get older, there's no boundaries, but as they get older and they actually leave, it's this for sure understanding that they are an individual independent of you.

Yeah. And there's an emptiness that goes along with that as a parent. Like, oh no, I have to figure out, I have to fill my life up with things too.

And I think that's true. Yeah. I think instead of woe is me-ing about them leaving, it's kind of like, huh, what's, what am I going to, there's all this space now. Like, what am I going to do? What am I going to fill it with? Because the worst kinds of parents are the ones that continue to try to get their children to continue to feel that when their

kids are trying to go make their own life. I do feel all my same fears in terms of starting friendships, which we're starting now with some people that we are feeling excited about, is that I'm still afraid of commitment because I'm afraid of commitment that I don't understand. that I'm still afraid of commitment because I'm afraid of commitment that I don't understand. So, and I, I, I also feel like because I live my life so much through writing and through this sort of thing that as Abby knows, I always feel like I'm going to be the disappointment in real life. So I always have that. Like one of the reasons I don't want to go to coffee I don't want to like because you're going to be disappointed like I'll write you a letter

yeah I'll write you a letter and my letter will crush and you will be like this is the bed but then if I'm just sitting with you I'm actually not I'm kind of quiet in person oh but baby like I just couldn't disagree more with your

with your belief system like you are so fucking good in the flesh you are like hey not that kind of podcast abby and smart and i just i couldn't disagree more with your personal belief well thank you i mean i will tell you that i am going to pursue continue to pursue our friends this new couple that we have become friends with and this is like and let's just tell you how it happens this woman like reached out to us through this other person and and was like we we need to be friends and for stuff okay one of the things i liked about this reaching out was that it felt very formal and official and there was information in it. Okay. There was what sort of friends they are. There were pictures

of a recent celebration that they had had, which was a really precious. There were dogs. There were, it was very weird and unusual, but it worked for me. I felt like I knew enough about them to escalate. We met. Well, it's speaking your intentionality language. Yes. This isn't like an arbitrary, casual happenstance of a situation. It was a very long proposal almost. And it was like full of life. Here's our life. Here's what we have to offer. I've read your stuff and listened to your stuff. I think I know what you have to offer. Here's our full, beautiful life that we can offer you. I don't know. It just really worked for me. So this couple came over. I said, come over in the morning. I think the first time we got together, it was 730 in the

morning. Yeah. Well, because this is another sober couple. And like for us, one of our biggest things is being sober. It's like we're not going out to a bar after nine o'clock. We're not. We're not. We're in bed at nine o'clock. Dinner is too late. Dinner.

I'm not my best self. Like I know when I'm my best self. 730 a.m. until 10. That's right. We're about to hit the witching hour. I'm talking 10 a. It's 7.30 a.m. until 10. That's right. We're about to hit the witching hour. I'm talking 10 a.m., not 10 p.m., okay? 10 a.m. is when all my coffee, i.e. hope and joy, runs out, okay? So the point is, I actually feel afraid with this friendship

because I like them so much. And they are so special and so kind and loving and good and smart. And you know what you've been doing? You've been paying attention in this friendship. This is the first friendship I've seen you really pay attention. Yeah, I know. Because they make me feel less lonely. They make me feel very tethered. And so I'm going to, do you know what we're doing, sister? We have been escalating the relationship. What I've thought of is that I think we've gotten to the point where we're deciding we're going away for a trip together. Oh my God. So I think I might, I don't want to be disappointment is what I'm saying. I don't know that I trust myself. I'm serious. I've never had like a long-term relationship,

friendship where I've been shown up consistently and it's still there and I've never disappointed them or missed something huge or done whatever because I didn't get sober till I was 25 and then when I got sober I just became a family person so my point is I think I'm going to talk about this to my new friend I think I'm going to ask my new friend like what do you want from a friendship many friends friends. I need to know what my job is and whether or not I can accept. Maybe this could be part of, of, of the little trip that we're taking. That is maybe we can say, Hey, listen, we do better with expectations. Yeah. What do you want and need and dream from, from our friendship? Yeah. God, that's the truest, most, what's the truest, most beautiful friendship you can imagine. God, that feels true. What's the truest,

most beautiful friendship you can imagine? Oh, that's so good. I feel so cringy about this conversation already. Well, I know who you're talking about. The four of y'all are, you know, this isn't too woo-woo-y. But I do think for, you know, your average teddy bear like me, I think it is inspiring to have this idea that in adulthood, the beauty of being an older person is to be able to look around and have the experience to know, hey, that looks like a person and a relationship that would be edifying to me. Like that one, not that one, but that one. And I have enough confidence and self-embodiment to put myself out there and be like,

I know who I am and what I bring. I'm looking at you. I'm beginning to see who you are and what you bring. I propose that we see what we could do together. Yeah. I love it. It's so like, it's kind of super badass to present yourself to someone because it suggests that you have enormous amount to offer.

And it's a compliment to them to suggest that they do too. So I think it's kind of cool to think about it that way. When you think about it, you would never just assume exclusivity or some kind of special status of a romantic relationship without talking about it, except me in middle school with a certain philandering seventh grader. But like the point is you would have a conversation. You would say, would, are you interested in this? Yeah. And it seems, it seems like we should be doing that to friends. More intentionality and expectation setting.

What about you, Sissy? What are you doing differently to have a different result? I think that I'm being honest with myself is, uh, with the fact that, you know, we talked a little bit in this last podcast is that, um, that I don't crave what I need and that my instincts are not to go towards things that fill my need and make me feel better. And they're more towards the kind of low hanging fruit of efficiency and productivity and mindlessness. And so I know, I think that's a good part of being in this desperate place of the wall of this pandemic is that I know I need to change things. And so I think my next great thing is just kind of remembering that about myself, just because I don't feel like I have

the energy or the craving to call a friend, that's my brain lying to me. And I know that on the other side of that, there will be a different outcome than what I have right now. And so I'm just trying to do, I'm actually doing it, which is crazy. And I think if I do it enough that it will rewire my brain more appropriately that like I will crave what is actually sustaining to me. And so I make you feel tethered, retethered after you do those things. Is that true to you? It does. And it also has this thing of like, I always feel like I'm like, oh my God, like, but to get on the phone. And first of all, I have to text people before I call them to say like, everyone is alive.

Everyone's breathing. Don't worry. I'm going to call you now because people are so used to me only calling if there's like a proper emergency. That's just kindness. It is kind. Yeah, it is kind.

And then, but it's possible just to have like a six minute check-in. It is possible just to have like a six minute check-in. It is possible. Okay, let's get some questions from our pod squad friends. Hi, Glennon and Amanda and Abby. I'm Sophie. I'm from Orlando. And my question is, how do we know the difference between loyalty and being a martyr? How do we know that it's the right time to be loyal to the people that we love and in our friendship?

And how do we know when it's time to let go and we're accepting less for ourselves than we deserve I think oftentimes I mistake loyalty and my friendships for really just holding on too long it's really hard to navigate when is the right time for a friendship breakup I guess and when is the best time to be a good and loyal friend that That's my heart thing right now. So I love you guys. Bye. Sophia, tell me if you think this is true, sister, because it feels true to me, but I don't know. Sometimes I can be a little bit too black and white about things. So I'm trying to think if there's any scenario in which being loyal to somebody else means not being loyal to yourself, like, and that that should be the right choice. to herself and her own knowing and her own peace and being loyal to this other person,

if staying with that other person means abandoning herself, then I don't think that can ever be the right decision. Isn't loyalty to another person, shouldn't it always coincide with self-loyalty? Is there a scenario in which I decide, okay, even though this feels wrong to me, even though this is not in alignment with my own values, even though this is a negative experience for me in terms of friendship, I am going to stay with you. Is that ever the correct response for either person? I think the confusing part, Sophia sounds like a, like a person whose identity and values align with, I am a good and loyal friend. I am a good and loyal friend. It isn't as clear as to her, it sounds like, do I stay loyal to you or loyal to me? It seems to me that she has built probably through a lot of her life and love, the identity and the value of being a good friend and valuing it in her life. So it's probably more confusing. But to me, I mean, the part where she said,

how do we know when it's time to let go and when we're accepting less for ourselves than we deserve? I mean, that's kind of the whole ballgame. And she's describing a really good friend of hers. But I feel like I think of it like a daycare when my kids were really little and we would occasionally get notes home from school and they would never tell us the name of the kid because of confidentiality protections, but we'd always get notes home that said something like, wanted to let you know that unfortunately during block time today,

one of Bobby's friends threw a brick at Bobby's head. Or like one of Alice's friends pushed Alice off the slide. And I used to laugh so hard at that because I'd be like, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Like their friends aren't doing. And that's kind of what I feel like with Sophia. It's so good. It's like how people are like,

I can't stand my friends or I have this friend that is such an asshole to me. Yes. Or I have this friend who never listens to me or I have this friend who constantly makes me feel bad.

Like, no, you don't. You have something else. Yes, ma'am. If your best friend is doing that to you, she is in fact not your best friend. Right. But we, she is in fact not your best friend.

Right. Okay, but can we trace back some of this bullshit thinking to when we're little and like we're forced to be around these people and other people convince us that these are our friends doing these horrible things to us. Throwing blocks at our ass. And then we get older and we don't know why our friends are throwing blocks at us and we're still calling them back. I mean, I think I think so. And I think it does get caught up in the identity of us. If friendship is super important to us to like, quote unquote, abandon this friendship, leave this friendship. Does that change how we view ourselves? I mean, it's very, it's very tricky.

Can we just say also, if what's important to Sophia is the identity of I am a good friend and friendship's important to me and I don't just abandon friendship. Sophia gets to keep that identity if she for herself decides what a friendship is, because if she decides, if Sophia rethinks her definition of friendship and decides that a good edifying life giving friendship is a friendship in which she is in fact getting what she deserves, as is the other person, then Sophia not only has the right, but the the responsibility to leave this friendship because it's not a friendship by her own definition right yeah Sophia can only be a good friend if she knows what the word friend means to her yeah yeah because friendship is not martyrdom good friendship is not martyrdom, just like good motherhood is not martyrdom. And that hurts. It hurts to look and say that that friend is in fact not being a good friend to you. But you I think we can't allow the tragedy of that truth prevent us from seeing that truth. of that truth prevent us from seeing that truth. Like you can both grieve it. It can be very, very sad and you can accept it at the same time. That's right. Because that goes back to the idea that it's hard. It will be hard to leave, but it's hard to stay too. Obviously inherent in this entire question is that it's painful to stay. It's painful to go. It's hard to stay. It's hard to go. What's the right kind of hard. Right. And I think I'd tell Sophia, listen to the last episode

because the, where we talked about that research where in confusing relationships, or it has a lot of really great stuff, but a lot of really shitty stuff that, that actually those ambivalent relationships can be as bad for us as the ones that are clearly toxic. Right. And so just because the good outweighs the bad doesn't mean it's actually a healthful relationship to be in. And if an airport is life and friendship is like the moving sidewalk, it just makes it all a little bit easier, a little bit less effortful, a little bit more enjoyable.

A friendship like this, it's not just not having a moving sidewalk and walking on the regular ground. It's like walking backwards on a moving sidewalk. It's not only not giving you more energy, it's robbing you of so much energy that you'd probably do better with just nothing. Sophia, I'm sorry, but I think you already know your answer. Yeah. And you're still a good friend. Yes, that's right. You're just a good friend to yourself also, Sophia. And to the next lucky boo that gets you. That's right. That's right.

That's right. All right, let's hear from Meg. Hi, Glennon, Abby, and sister. My name's Meg. During COVID, I've lost the friendship of one of my most central people. And it has been by far the hardest breakup of my life. This is someone who I thought would be in my corner

forever and ever. I was prepared to show up for her through thick and thin until the end of time, but we had a conflict and her response, which I know was rooted in her own past trauma, was to cut off all contact with me. It's been over a year since our rift and I still think about her every day. I still run through scripts in my head of things I wanted to say and never will. I still get lonely and angry and really sad a million ways about it all, but I mostly keep it to myself because grieving a friendship doesn't really seem as acceptable somehow as grieving a romantic relationship would. With time and therapy, I've come to understand that as special as our friendship was, it

was rooted in some deeply unhealthy patterns of behavior on both sides. So COVID times have made it clear to me that I'm actually only interested in relationships that are deep and intimate and meaningful. But after such heartbreak, going deep with someone feels really risky and vulnerable and kind of unsafe. How do I find the courage to look for the kind of deep connections I crave after this friendship heartbreak? connections I crave after this friendship heartbreak? And how do I avoid returning to the entrenched patterns and roles and habits that led to our end in the first place? Thanks so much in advance for your thoughts. Take care. We had so many questions like Meg's. It feels like this is a real grief and trauma that so many folks go through in life and that there's no cultural legitimizing for template for showing that you're going through it or word. Exactly.

We have the word divorce. We have the word divorce. We have the word death. We have words for endings of things. And we don't even have a word for losing a dear friend. I mean, someone that, someone that you thought you were going to go through everything together, someone that you've spent decades of your life together or something, and then you don't even have a way of communicating that through your words. Like I remember when I got divorced, I remember having this odd sense of gratitude that we would actually been married. So I could say, I'm going through a divorce right now. And it's like, when you say it, people get that that's a big fucking deal that like you have all of the, like you're, this is really bad. And I remember feeling sorry about that people who are going through just as many losses as I had, but just

happened to be like boyfriends or girlfriends or engaged. Sissy, I have a friend who was so in love with her person and found out that the person was terminally ill. And they got married because she imagined the funeral and she imagined people coming up to her and not knowing that it was a marriage. people coming up to her and not knowing that it was a marriage and that she couldn't handle that, the world, the universe, not respecting the loss the way that people only respect loss when you have a fucking contract. Yes. But because we don't have a contract with friends, Yes, but because we don't have a contract with friends, the universe does not respect the loss of it. I mean, imagine like staying at home for a month in your pajamas. If it's because you divorce everybody, there's a million shows about it.

There's everybody, that's okay. We get it. You're not allowed to stay home in your pajamas in the dark for a month because you lost your best friend, but you should be. It's an ambiguous loss in some ways too, because there isn't a name and there isn't a cultural respect. And if the whole world is, you know, by omission telling you to get over it and you haven't been able to even walk through it because of that, you must feel like you're going a little crazy through it. And I wonder if also there's this role of, you know, I feel like culturally we're just starting to evolve to the place of in romantic divorces where we are letting go of the trope of there's like a villain and here we

have to demonize each other. Like there's also this strange trope of there's like a villain and here we have to demonize each other. Like there's also this strange trope in women's relationships where it's like an extension of the mean girl situation where I don't feel like we've quite gotten to the place where we can understand that relationships have evolved and are taking on a new form or going away. And that doesn't mean that anybody's a villain in any of it either. Yeah, because when you think about, too, the agreed-upon expectations that we have

in other sorts of relationships, there's a better storyline. There's a better, you cheated. You da-da-da-da. There's like a clear bad guy could get out of jail, free car, all that. But there's less it up there's like a clear bad guy could get out of jail free car all but there's less since there's less rules about friendship it's harder to know who broke them what's the storyline what's the narrative that's an all ambiguous loss it's lots of times not a bad

guy good guy situation it's just that that it's the idea that we have that relationships are only worthy if they am successful, if they last for fucking ever. Like this idea that a marriage is a failure if it ends. Are we sure about that? Because I have seen so many marriages that were very, very life-giving then stop being. And so they ended it instead of holding on forever and ever while everybody died inside of it. What if friendship is the same way? Like what if there are, friendship is not only successful if it lasts forever, but what if it comes into your life at a certain time and carries you across a river like a canoe? Like what if it grows you and helps you heal?

Like what Meg said, she said that looking back on it, she can see some unhealthy patterns. That means she grew. Right. she grew. Right. She wouldn't be able to see that in retrospect unless she had grown through that relationship and through its ending and now has different eyes to see because of that relationship in both good and bad ways, right? So what if she crossed a river with the canoe of that friendship and now it's time to put it down? You don't carry it. It's like that old story, right? You don't carry the canoe forever after it's gotten to you from the place you needed to go to this new place. And what if the next relationship she has will be all the more beautiful and healthy because of this one? And what if all of that is a raging success?

And that goes to her question about how do I avoid returning to the same patterns? I mean, I think that is in a way it's cyclical back to the same thing. I mean, we, you know, you go through a divorce and you hopefully do the work of really seriously evaluating, you know, what got you there, what kept you there, what happened there. And she is working with a therapist. And I think she gives the validity to this breakup and grief and really interrogating all that happened there at the same level as she would have that been a divorce. That's exactly right. I think we reveal so much about ourselves in those relationships.

And there's no reason why we just put it under a microscope with the romantic ones. That's so good. Yeah. Take it seriously. Right. Gather up every single thing you learned about yourself and also trust yourself in this new because what that relationship already gave you is new eyes to see right that's what you will look for different things and you don't have to will it you don't have to be scared you will look for different things because you have new eyes after that friendship you will see things differently just based on what you became

from that relationship. Good luck, Meg. Good luck, Meg. Okay, let's hear from our pod squatter of the week. Hi, Abby and Glennon and sister. My name is Mackenzie and I actually just ran into you three at LAX. Abby and Glennon, I think you were picking up sister and some other friends from the airport. And I was the girl on the curb who like was awkwardly telling you that I love your podcast and I love your book and your soccer and just everything. And I just wanted to call and just thank you guys for being so nice and warm. And Abby was like a pod squatter when Amanda walked up and Amanda like hugged me. And I started crying because I was trying to respect your space.

But I also feel like I just didn't adequately convey how much you three mean to me. I wish I would have shown more excitement, but I was also just like not trying to bombard you in the middle of LAX pickup. not trying to bombard you in the middle of LAX pickup. So sister, thank you for the hug. And gosh, today was just like the best day ever. I'm like, cannot believe that that happened. I'm so grateful for you guys. Have a great day.

Bye. Mackenzie. I totally remember Mackenzie. Do you remember her? Me too. Completely. Yes. I was, we were picking up, Abby and I were picking up you and Allison and Dina for a pod squad, like get together.

We were talking about this pod squad and Mackenzie was there. And I just, I forgot to tell you this. I recently, Emma's bunch of stuff fell out of her backpack and there were these little notes in there. And I was like, what is this? And she's like, oh's like oh that's so and so's mom's ideas for the next pod no I mean it's the most precious thing like it just makes me you know when we talk about friendship and being tethered so I'm working on my big, you know, corner tethers, right? I'm going to work on these friendships, but I'm telling you having this pod squad all over the place,

wherever we go. And because it's just like this thing you see in people's eyes when they tell you, and it feels like you're their people. It feels like if anybody lasts long enough to become a pod squatter in this pod, like they are people who have a sense of humor, who are honest, who are vulnerable, who are grappling with the hard things of life. And knowing that those people are everywhere just makes me feel so much less alone and tethered in a million little tethers to the earth. So Mackenzie, thanks for being a tether. We love you. I think I just want to also, I feel like this about the pod squad. They did this study that said if two people were standing and looking at a hill that it doesn't seem as steep if you're standing with a friend. Yes, I read that. And I just feel like that's what we want to be for you, Podsquatter. We just want to be standing at that bottom of the hill and being like, yeah, we got this.

We can do hard things. This isn't steep at all. Let's go. Let's go. Even if it's a time like this and the mountain is actually a wall. It's definitely as steep as it can possibly be, but it doesn't look that way to us. And even if we're just delusional, y'all, even if it's just a delusion, we're here to tell you that we love you. It's not as steep as it looks and together we can do hard things.

We'll see you back here next week. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast

if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.