We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 68. SARAH PAULSON IS PLAYING GLENNON ON TV!!

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

1. Glennon reenacts her first emotional and hilarious email exchange with Sarah Paulson about the Untamed TV show.    2. Sarah contemplates how she will prepare for the role of Glennon–and why she’s “never been more excited about anything truly ever. ” 3. Glennon, Sarah and Abby discuss who will play Abby–and how they will recreate the “There She Is” moment.  About Sarah:  Sarah Paulson’s acting work includes lead roles in FX’s anthology series "American Horror Story,” and playing Marcia Clark in "The People v. O. J. Simpson,” for which she won an Emmy Award, a Golden Globe Award, a Screen Actors Guild Award, a Critics’ Choice Award, and a Television Critics Association Award.  Her film credits include the Academy Award-winning "12 Years a Slave,” as well as “Carol,” "Ocean’s 8,” and many others.  She can be seen in the FX miniseries "Mrs. America,” Lionsgate’s "Run,” in the title role in the Netflix series "Ratched,” which she executive produces, and most recently in the third installment of American Crime Story: Impeachment as Linda Tripp.  IG:@misssarahcatherinepaulson TW: @MsSarahPaulson

And I continue to believe the best people are free. Hello, I don't know if I've been more excited about a show or to tell you this cool thing that I've been holding inside of me. I have been working really hard with a few amazing people to take the magic and the fire and the love in the untamed book and turn it. and turn it into a TV show to come into your living rooms. And I haven't really wanted to talk about it much, even though it's been going on for a long time, because I feel like when I talk about things too early that I'm making, they, like, lose all of the magic.

Like, I need the containment to build the pressure of it inside of me or something. So I've been keeping it to my... little self. But we have kind of a milestone right now, which is that we are getting ready to take the beginnings of this project we've made and try to find a help for it. So we thought we'd celebrate that by sharing with you today first on the We Can Do Hard Things podcast, the person who is going to play me in the Untamed TV show. So today we are joined by her.

You're about to find out who she is. Big hint is she is a she. And I'm so freaking excited to introduce you to her and her to you. Many of you are going to already know and love and adore her. But if you don't know her yet, you'll be in love with her in the next hour. She has become such a force and friend to me just so important. me and to our family. And I cannot wait for the magic that we're all going to make together. So today she joins us. Let's jump right into our conversation. Okay. So I would like an apology

for my wife. Okay. We're going to start. We can do hard things by apologizing. I am sorry, Abby, for not handling the technical difficulty that we just had with the grace that you have come become accustomed to in moments of crisis from me. Got it. Okay. Thank you. I feel better. Okay.

Everything's fine. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Bless you for having missed the last five minutes where the tech went wrong and my life was over, but my life is back. And I'm glad because there's no way I could be more excited for the next hour, which in my defense is why I wanted everything to go perfect, which is why I was so upset before. Okay. Here we go.

So what were. about to do, dear listener of we can do hard things, is we are about to share with you this top secret magical information, which is that as you know, we can do hard things, listeners, untamed as being made into a TV show, this is not the big news. Exciting, but not the big news. But I, in my little sweaty heart, have known the person that I needed the universe. The only person.

The only person that I needed the universe to provide to play me in the untamed show that I have always known in my little sweaty heart. One shot. One shot for this human. We're going to go down to it. Are we going to start Eminem? They say to me, give me your list. What is your list?

I say here is my list. They say, your list has one person on it. I say, I realize this might be difficult for us. This is not a good definition of list. We've only got one shot. Do not. Miss your chance. Sarah Paulson.

Once in a lifetime. Sarah Paulson comes once in a freaking lifetime. That is actually right. And tragically, I was not the only one who knew this. The whole universe knew this. And so that's why it was she going to be tricky. So, first of all, hello, Sarah Paulson. I love you forever.

That was quite an introduction. Quite an introduction. Hi, Glennon. Hi, Abby. Hi, Amanda. Hi. I'm starstruck about Amanda. Is that weird?

I know. Isn't she striking? I just feel starstruck because, you know, I've seen her. her a lot, but this is our first real, aside from share the mic now when I was, you were there a lot, but this is really our first, like, eye contact, you know? I know. It's like looking at the sun looking at you, Sarah Paulson. Oh, my God. And are you in the closet? Are you in a closet, Sarah Paulson? We're just going to call you Sarah Paulson the whole time. Okay. I'm in my closet. I'm in a closet in my home. Not the only closet. But this one is the one I chose. Yeah,

There's this one. It's got sweaters and I thought I needed soft things. Yeah. How do I sound? Am I too close to the mic? Maybe a smitch. Oh. I was like you're honest. But I don't care because like I said before, you were perfect and everything you do is perfect forever. So what I want to say to you, Sarah, and what I want to introduce the world to is how we came to each other.

Mm-hmm. Because for a very long time, we had a sad relationship where I was the only one who knew how close we were. And honestly, I felt like it was a little lopsided and non-reciprocal. But the team of people from Bad Robot, Jesse Nelson, and this team that was making this show knew that Sarah Paulson was the North Star of this. And so at one point they said, we're going to have to ask her to do it. If you're going to continue to be certain about it. And I said, is there any other way? And so they recommended that I write you a letter.

Which is why? Because they didn't want me to speak to you in person yet. Because they wanted us to have a shot. Which is wise. Because Sarah might right now be reconsidering this whole situation. situation. She is not. She's never been more excited about anything, truly, ever, ever. That's the truth. You can see as evidence by what I think is about to happen now. If it's happening now, is it happening now? Yeah, let's do it. So I'm going to read the email that I sent to you. And am I reading the one I

send back? Would you like to? I mean, I don't like acting on the spot. I would like to hear your interpretation. Okay. Okay. So I think that that would be kind of great. Yeah. So, so, so I'm going to be Sarah Paulson. This will be so funny. In a minute. Okay. So this is what I wrote to you. Dear Sarah, everything is hard right now. I like to just start with that as a level setter in all the things I say. The way I love the world when things are hard is to keep creating beautiful, true, hopeful things. And the way I love myself is to co-create those things with beautiful, true, hopeful people. To that end, I have forever worshipped you as an actor. I understand that this is not a unique experience as the entire world worships you as an actor. I will tell you this. I never imagined I'd dare to ask you to play me.

I thought you were too elegant, sophisticated, cool. I am many things, but cool is not one of them. I am warm, toasty, sweaty even. Then, you showed up at our first share the mic now call. You were goofy. You were real and present and so open-hearted and vulnerable. A little sweaty even. and you took the action seriously. You were careful. You cared about the women involved. After Share the mic ended, I began watching every interview you've ever done

and reading every article ever written about you. Sarah, untamed is on the surface, a sexy, funny, modern, classic love story between two women. Underneath it is a story about women, breaking free from conditioning and tribalism to save ourselves, each other, and the planet. The reason the book is selling at astronomic levels

is that this is what's needed in this exact moment. We need a woman to lead us out of the matrix of patriarchal, capitalistic white supremacy. But we need her to do it a little clumsily and sweatily and simply by trying to live her own fucking life. Now I ask you, who the hell else can play this role but you? You are already this role. Your lifelong resistance to labels and commitment to creating a life and love of your own. Your activism and love for others. Your twinkly eyes!

Are you aware that every few words you say your eyes twinkle? I am obsessed with eye twinkles because they are proof that a woman is up to something. Dear God, give me a woman who is up to something. And Sarah, your constant ability to sway between the dark and the light, the way you stay joyful while rushing towards the hard stuff, the pain of the world. I like how you use your life and talent and fire and power, Ms. Paulson. I really want you to play me. I want to make something together that the entire world can claim as a moment of hope and beauty

and a map of the way forward. I want to make something that the queer community can claim as our own celebration and proof of what we've always known that the best life lies just beyond where they told us to stay. We would have so much fun. We would have so much fun. Love, Gletit. Oh, my God. One of the great emails of all time, I think, personally. She'll really get you.

So I send it. I send it. And then I sweat. but I think only like two days later, I give back this email. Quick turnaround. It just says this. Okay. Let me be frank.

I have never gotten an email that made me sweat and cry and sweat and laugh and sweat and cry and sweat whilst. That's right, whilst making my hands shake a little. Also, did I mention the sweating? Glennon. Glennon. Glennon. I. I.

I. Truly don't even know what to say or where to begin. Okay. Here's what I know. I revere you. Top to toe. I love that line. I cannot believe that you want me to play you.

I feel. I feel. I have so many feelings. Always with the one million feelings. Is this email making you rethink things? I'm sorry. I will stop shouting now. All caps. All caps. Line break. We take a breath. I would be so honored. I would be so blessed. I would be so scared. I would feel so incapable. I would do it anyway. I'm sure I'm not supposed to tell you all of these things that I'm feeling. But I'm

don't know how else to do, well, life, really. Your letter made me feel like I could fly. More soon. Sweaty, Paulson. I think that's a pretty good email, too, I have to say. It's so good. Mostly just because it is just me represented as clearly as I possibly can represent myself. There's not a single hyperbolic, even though I, on.

the face of it, I can imagine someone going, this is not. Who could possibly, but it's, that's just me. Yeah, it is. In a nutshell, in little words, letters put together that form words. Oh, it is. So, Sarah, at the point that you reached, that this email reached you, you could play anybody in the whole world, right? You are, sister, can you read her just actual bio real quick? Oh, God. It would be a damn honor. I mean, it would take the hour, so I'm just going to connect. But as you know, Sarah Paulson is the first person to ever that's ever in the whole wide world. Win all five major TV awards in one year sweeping the Emmy, Golden Globes, SAG, Critics Choice, and Television Critics Association Awards for her portrayal of Marcia Clark in FX's People versus OJ Simpson. She started in the run, which was the most watch original film on Hulu.

She stars mesmerizing Ratchet. Ratchet. Early transcendent as Linda Tripp in impeachment, both of which she also executive produces as well as as as complex as they come in the Academy Award winning film 12 years a slave. She is a Sagittarius, an Aquarius Moon, a Virgo rising. She's afraid of flying. She loves watching the real. housewives. And most importantly, she and Holland, Taylor, are mothers to two absolutely perfect

rescue pups, Winnie and Louise. Wow. That got all the good stuff. That's all the good stuff. Good job, Sarah. Good job, Sarah, Paulson. So funny, when you hear it sort of spelled out like that, it's like, oh, all those things I have told myself about maybe it's not going well or maybe I haven't done it. And then I go, oh, wait a minute, you're talking about me. That's wild. That's wild. That's wild. I feel like I wish every listener if we could do hard things when they wake up in the morning could just get a bio red. Yes.

Somebody read them a bio before they get out of bed. Everybody's done a lot of good shit. It's so hard to remember when you're in the thick of your day and you just go, wait a minute. Everything feels so hard. And then you're like, but wait, I've done. I've done some hard things. Yes, that's right.

So why then you're in, you know, at this point you can do any role. Like, why did you, why untamed? Why did you? say yes to this role. Oh my God. Okay. Well, you know, I told, I think I told you this a little bit that I was convinced it would be a different actress and I don't know if I'm supposed, but I, I can say, I thought it would for sure be Reese Witherspoon. I thought for sure. I remember, you know, I was following the whole launch of the book and Abby, you know, getting you on speakerphone with Reese

and the book being chosen for, it just was, I just thought, oh, it's going to be Reese. It's going to be Reese. It's going to be Reese. And of course, why should it be Reese? Reese is incredible. And then I thought, well, that'll never be me. And then I thought it would be Kristen Bell. Then I thought it would be, you know, a lot of sort of, I don't know, very charming, littler. You know, I'm a little taller than you. I don't know how, maybe I'll play the part on my knees. I'm not quite sure what we'll do, put like knees and shoes on me.

You're like, you're like we. You know, I'm like a. So I just thought, I don't know. I just, I thought it would never be me. But I dreamt about it being me. And I would watch you read passages of the book, every place I could possibly watch you read passages of the book. And I kept thinking, I don't know, you know, sometimes there are these, and I know you'll know what I'm talking about, these things that are impossible to describe, but this sort of feeling I felt in my body that it should be me, just thought it should be me. And I didn't even know it was going to be made into a television program for people to watch. But I just thought if they make it. this, when they make this, it should be me. It won't be me, but it should be me. And I think the reason I want to do it is because I'm terrified of failing, which is a barometer I often use for the things

that I know I must do. So I didn't know it was going to come to me, but I thought it should be me and I didn't know why and I couldn't explain why, but just something about it just, I almost sometimes get a, this is going to make it sound like I think I'm some kind of psychic friends network person, but I'm not. But I had this like shaky feeling when I would see you read it and I would watch you and Abby and I would see interviews with you and sister. And I just thought, this is, something is, I just would get a little shaky. I didn't know why. And then when I got your email, that's why, even though the email seems a little over the top, my response. we don't do over the top we believe over the top this is just this is just really what I felt and I couldn't believe that it was happening I couldn't believe it but it terrifies me

it terrifies me because you are a you belong to people is what I feel there are people who kind of claim you and need you and all that you represent to feel brave enough I think to take steps

to make just little movement even internalized movements, anything. I think you really are a North Star for a lot of people. And I feel that is an enormous responsibility to, that people will have attachments to the you that is the you for them. And I will, of course, try to do that, but it also has to be sort of filtered through the you that is you that I see, you know, and that, because that is the ultimate thing too,

is that you have to, you're going to sort of give this over. Not that you won't be around for all of it and tell me when I'm doing it wrong, which is it will happen. No, because I won't know. No, I don't, you will. You'll be like, that doesn't feel like me. Like I sometimes think about like, will I do a voice? Will I try to do your voice?

Will I not try to do your voice? All these things that I'm already thinking about. And there's so many things we still don't know yet. So, you know, I just don't want to mess up what, you know, But I do believe that sometimes that is, for me anyway, a incredible motivator for like a lockdown, deep dive to sort of block out the fear component and just focus on. The only way for me to deal with the fear is to focus on the act of the doing and learning everything I can.

And, you know, so the fear. The fear is mostly why I want to do it. And also, you're the greatest person who ever lived. Oh. I agree. And I think it's so fascinating that to be such a high performer. You are. There's only one greater one and that's Sarah Paulson. I don't think so. What about me? And also you and also sister. That's a weird thing. I just said, honey, you are the greatest person. And my wife just said, Sarah Paulson, you actually are the other one.

That's right. This show is brought to you. by Alma. When I first tried to find a therapist, it felt like a scavenger hunt with no map, pages of names, long wait lists, voicemails that never got returned. I remember thinking, if this is what it takes just to talk to someone, no wonder people give up. So when I found Alma, it felt like someone finally turned the lights on. Alma, ALMA, is this beautifully simple way to find licensed in-network therapists without all the runaround. You can browse without even making an account and you can filter for what actually matters. The therapist's approach, background, specialty, lived experience,

whatever helps you feel understood. Nearly everyone who finds a therapist through Alma, 97% say they felt genuinely seen and heard. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit hello alma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation. today. That's hello-a-l-m-a-com slash W-E-C-A-N. What do you do? Like when you said right now you're trying to figure out, can you just, again, I'm dripping with sweat right now. I'm sweating too. I'm sweating too. Okay. This is a sweaty one. Can you talk about what do you do? Like you're trying to figure out how to play someone. Like freaking Linda, trip. Yeah, you got your eyebrows back.

I see. They grew in. Good job. They grew in. Congratulations. It was one of, thank you, because it really was a very painful time. I mean, can you imagine if you just took your eyebrows off your face, what you might feel about that? Like, it doesn't seem, it's a sort of silly attachment to have

to one's eyebrows, but really think about taking them off your face. And all of a sudden, the distance between and also, I have a bit of a high forehead. Let's not like, so if you take the eyebrows away. You got a five head. Between the top of the eyelid and the top of the head is too big.

It's too big. And so it's hard. And it was hard for me to feel, you know, you're playing a character at work 16, 18 hours a day. Great. Nothing I could want to do more. It was a heaven on earth to me. But then you come home and you still have anything on your face that used to be there. And so it's like you're still Linda Tripp at home.

But you're you. It's really unpleasant. That was the most unpleasant. pleasant part of it was that I had no eyebrows on my face. How is Holland? How did Holland do with this? You know, this is one of those moments where it was very clear to me that this person loves me. Because she always was so, she said, I think you look beautiful. All I can do is see your beautiful features. I mean, I'm not going to say what she says to me because it will sound self-aggrandizing. And that's not, I'm not in the market of that. It's uncomfortable for me. But she, made me feel, you know, I had to gain weight for it. My body changed. My eyebrows were gone. I had these

hideous nails that I lived with for these, like, no offense to all the people who love an acrylic nail. It's not my gem. I don't love it. They were, they were like square 90s French tip. And it was almost a year of this and I couldn't take them off. So I would come home, hairless, you know, with the body I didn't recognize with, you know, hands that weren't my. It just was a trying time. And this is the part that is a little deranged is that I kind of get off on it. I'm like, look at me. I'm allowing my body to be taken over by another person and I'm that committed. And then there are other moments from like, what was I thinking?

This was a horrible mistake. And for what, you know? So like embody this other person to then let, I don't know. It's a really weird thing to choose to do with your life. How are you going to transform to be like Glennon? Because you do transform. That's the thing about you. There are so many people who just,

who you're like, oh yeah, that's that person playing someone. But that's not what the experience is. Watching you act is freaking weird. It's like an actual transformation. I hate her. I hate her. Why do I hate her? She's my friend and I hate her. Or she's just like brilliant,

getting you to see the whole full humanity of a human being because she doesn't play a character. She plays a human being every time. All the prism of it. So what the hell and how and WTF? What the hell and how do you do that? How are you prepared to do play me? Do you can I ask you a question to maybe answer the question?

I could no more explain to you how I do it or what it is. I can tell you all the like I will work with a movement person and you probably you move in ways. I don't think you know, but you're going to become aware of them. You can say that again. Yeah. She doesn't have any idea. You're going to become aware of the way you walk and the way you can. help. I mean, it's beautiful. It's not bad. Like, you're making a face like it's bad. It's just like the way you are.

It's the way you are. It's the Glennon isms. There'll be things, you know, I will watch more video of you than you've ever watched of yourself. I remember having a conversation once with someone who was married to a person on Saturday Night Live. And she told me that the only way that he did what he did was he would pick like one, all you have to do is pick like one undeniable. physical communication of a person, like something that everybody notices right away. And whether you notice, you notice it or not, maybe not even the thing, but it's the way they move their hair or what they do with their hands. And it will sell it if they've got all the right things on in the costume and stuff. So there's a version of that, like I remember with Linda Tripp, the woman I worked with whose name is Julia Crockett, who you will come to know and she's an incredible person. I'm not a singer. I apologize for that moment. Neither is Glennon, so we're good. We got a couple of good. I hope we have a singing moment in the show where I can try to.

do that. But she watched so much tape of Linda and she, there were some things Linda did that if I did them, you would turn the television. She had a blinking thing that was very intense. And I thought, well, I can't do that blinking thing. It will be so distracting.

And so there'll probably be things about your physical self that I won't do because maybe it would be a lot. Like the voice? Oh, no. I'm, no, I think I have to say, good morning, everybody. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning, everybody. Good morning. I don't know. I mean, this is, this is just like my initial hit on it that is like not with any work on it at all. So it will be better than that. But it'll be a thing you'll decide. You'll go, I can't, that feels too. I don't know. I don't know how any of it will happen. I just know that it will. I'm trying to embrace this new thing in 2022 for myself, which I have never, never dipped. my toe into, which is allowing myself to be confident that I can do what I have spent 20 years

of my life doing. I have spent an enormous amount of time fertilizing this part of my being that thinks that in order to do my job well, I have to be disparaging about my own abilities. I have to not bring self-reference. I'm not allowed to sort of acknowledge that. And it's like we all, I think, collectively, I know that I've been guilty of this. Like a confident woman freaks me the F out. Like I get so freaked and it's because I don't operate that way, that I allow myself to decide that it's somehow negative, that a woman would, you know, think that they're good at what they do.

A human being would allow. But I think men get such a sort of broader, there's so much latitude for them to embrace their greatness. Whereas I think as women, it's really hard for us. to do confidently. And some of that is from the dangerous things that happens, the interplay between women about not wanting that from other women and feeling so threatened by it. And so I am trying so hard to acknowledge that I have spent over 20 years doing what I do. And there were times when I didn't know that I knew more and less, but I have to acknowledge at my current age that

I know how to do it. It doesn't mean that I will always do it well, because I do believe in that thing of like the Marsha Clark thing was I was the right person to play that part. And it was a magic alchemy and synergistic thing across the board. And there are other things that I've done since and that I will do in the future that will either have that or won't. And some of it we can't control. But I can acknowledge that I know I will do my absolute best and that will be good enough. That's right.

That is right. what do you think are when you think about playing this role are there things that you see for yourself now I know you're going to point and I'm going to stop do you know when you were at my house and we were chatting on your hands are you sitting on your hands I was so yes I get self I'm like oh wait is am I doing a thing that she's going to notice and start doing okay my question is if I remembered how to breathe or move what I would say is are there things that you find are similar about us and are different. Like what thing about me or the me from Untamed or the me that you watch in videos feels like something that you're tapping into because they're similar?

And what do you feel like is a huge difference between us? I think there are more alignments in our essential being, I think. I really do feel this, which is why when I would think that it was going to be Kristen Bell, I would get so upset. Because I'm like, I don't know if she's the same, that I'm the same like Glennon inside. I'm like Glennon, inside. Kristen Bell is great. She's the greatest ever. Did you see that Sloth video on Ellen?

Like there's nobody better or greater ever. But it's really how I feel. And I don't know why, except for the things that I do know about why. But in terms of the differences, you are braver. than I am, I think. I think you are. I understand why you're making that face, but I do think you are. I do know why you're making the face, but I do think you are.

I just, because let me say this, here's why. You, I hide behind character. Myself gets revealed in the roles that I'm playing, right? And if people are paying attention, they might notice some, like, connective tissue that's in each character that they might be able to connect to something. something about me. You are you out in the world as you. You are not hidden. You are, you are, you are, you are, you are, you are, you are, you are, you are, you are not hiding. I ultimately, as a performer inherently, um, hiding a little bit and revealing at the same time. So I think there is a, there is an inherent bravery in just revealing oneself the way you do.

It's a new year and instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my space to feel calmer, more functional, and a little more like a place that can reflect my goals and energy for this year, which is why I've been turning to Wayfair. It's truly a one-stop shop for everything your home needs this season.

What surprised me most was how easy it was to find exactly what I wanted in my style, and within my budget. Whether you're organizing kids' rooms, upgrading your work from home set up, tackling clutter, or just trying to make weeknight dinners easy. Wayfair really does have everything. Your home doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to support the life you're living right now. Get organized, refreshed, and back on track this new year for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Where do you feel like you're not hiding? Where, in what parts of your life do you feel like you are the most seen and held and where you're not performing and you're just the coziest

and the most, where do you feel your belonging? With Holland, most. significantly for sure. It's the most, I've never slept the way I sleep when I'm next to Holland. I just like a kind of, it was the most significant indicator to me beyond the other sort of more overt, obvious things. It was like, oh, the peace I feel. And I'm not a peaceful person internally. I am a kind of chaotic, anxious, overthinking person. And, And Holland has some of that too, but she's a much more practical, logical, optimistic person than I am generally. And so, but there's something about, you know, we sleep holding hands.

This is a real thing that we do. And it's not even something we started doing or tried to do. It's just how we sleep. And that is, I just feel most peaceful with her for sure. And I have pockets of that in my really. relationships with some of my closest friends in the world. You know, Amanda Pete and I have been known to literally wet our pants while being together from laughing so hard, like an actual pee.

Same with sister. We had to pull over once on the road. And she was wearing a kind of sweat pant where there was like a bloom of water all of a sudden. I was like, oh my God, you peed! And we could, but I couldn't speak. And there's a sound that I make and that she makes me when she's laughing so hard that is so funny that even just thinking about it really makes me it's just like

unacceptable it's like a I can't explain it and it's so horrible and it's just we've almost gotten into car accident it's been bad you know it's bad it's bad and great and delightful and when she laughs sometimes she goes

like something happens you have her teeth and her she got really big teeth you can play the piano and Amanda's teeth and just last night it was her birthday yesterday and we were talking on the phone and she something happened And she laughed and she did that.

Like it almost sounds like a machine gun, which there's nothing worse than a machine gun. But it's like when it's coming out of her teeth, it's only funny. Anyway, that was a tangent I went on. But there is a lot of peace I have with a person who can wrap the pants laughing. Yes. And my sister as well, we have my sister and I have a very, we're so close in age. And so we have a laughing thing too that's unnatural. Very natural to us.

But I think people are like, okay. No, we get it. Nobody thinks it's funny. Yes, we get it. We learned, my sister and I learned very young that in uncomfortable situations we would start laughing with each other. So this is when we were like seven and ten. So Sarah, we had this thing when my dad would be yelling at us.

We figured out if you put your arm over your face like you're scratching your back, you can cover your face. You can be laughing. We would just be standing next to each other covering. our faces. And to this day, the laughing. Abby told me, I said, asked her one time, when are she most jealous? Because I'm kind of a jealous person. Me too. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Jealous. Yeah. Jealous. Jalous. Holland, not jealous. Doesn't get jealous. No. Abby doesn't really get jealous either. And I told her, I said, when are you ever jealous? And she said, the only time I'm really

jealous is when you're laughing so hard at your sister. Because she can make you laugh like no one else gets. Yeah. Speaking of Abby, you know, we haven't. I know. We haven't. We haven't. We haven't cast an Abby because it feels so huge and important. What are you hoping for in that casting, in that chemistry, in that what are we going to do? Don't you think Abby kind of has to weigh in very heavily about who that person is? That's what I meant to say. Abby, what do you think? I'm just saying the reason why is that I wonder if it should be for Abby what it was for you with me. Ooh, that's interesting. I honestly, when I think about it, my brain goes to like, where is she? I don't know. Is it who I don't know?

That's the thing is. That's the thing. It's got to be. We've talked about it. And it's very weird to have to actually have this conversation about who's going to play me in a television. It's a very weird conversation. It's a very weird conversation happening. So I have to like side-

All right, fine. I'll do it, Abby. I'll do it. Go ahead. Wait, Sarah, you should know that Lizzie are one of my best friends, Liz Gilbert, tried out for the roll over the phone. So she was sending me pictures of like her hair in a mohawk. And then like trying to look like Abby.

And then she sent me pictures. She said, well, I know Sarah's great, but have you seen this? And she sent a picture of herself in like a cardigan with two glasses on her head. trying out for the role of me. Okay. I don't want to compete. I can't compete with Elizabeth Gilbert for the part of Glennon Doyle. Like I kind of feel like if you have to pass the baton, I would understand.

I would understand. Yeah. I don't know who it should be. I don't know either. And I kind of feel like should just be like a new person. I was thinking about that too because because here's why. Let me say why. Even in the book, and I can just, it's very cinematic.

Even in the book it is, it's cinematic this moment of you seeing Abby for the first time. And the idea of not having an attachment to an actor that audiences have any particular feeling about and any, but that the idea that it's about Glennon's experience, aka me or Elizabeth Gilbert, I'm sure there's others. I'm sure all the people will comment below about. Who they would rather see, and that will be a great day for me. They will not. So in advance, I say thank you and F you. No. Some people might.

No, they won't. I will have a block party. I will have a block party that day, and I will block, block, block, block, block, block. Okay, great. I've never liked a block party more. But the idea that it is your experience of seeing this person and what happens to you when you see her is easier to do when it's a person. that nobody has any, you know, should just be some girl out there, woman out there who's a star

and she just don't know it yet. That's right. But we do. That's right. I think that's it. Open casting call for Abby. Yeah. Do you know what's interesting is that that is what Sarah McCarran, who is going to be the showrunner,

and you and I had a meeting with her. Sure did. During that meeting, Sarah Paulson. I don't even know if you. you know what you were doing in that meeting. But when Sarah McCarran started talking, we were needing somebody who understood, who was the same as us on the inside and who understood all of the layers of what this show needed to mean to the world.

And she started talking fire out of her mouth, okay, the fire we needed. And Sarah, you started, you were like in the feet, you were rocking back and forth. I was like, okay. So, yeah, you were rocking back and forth in your chair. The whole time she was talking. And I was like, okay, so I guess we're not having a poker face during this one. I guess we're just going to, we're going to. I'm not great at that.

That's not my strong suit. You were so excited. And I was so excited. She's amazing. She's just amazing. Have you guys been watching Station 11? Yes. You know you about this because I'm obsessed by it.

And there was one episode in particular written by Sarah McCarran. And I was like, boom, bong, bing bong, we already have her. Yes. And we've been meeting every day to like, nimb. We've just been talking about all of what the show needs to mean. I'm bringing her up because she said those words to me that you just said. She did? Yes.

She said, I feel like it needs to be. Everyone needs to have the reaction when they're watching their own reaction like you had. Like we want everybody to go, holy shit. Who's that? Right. Holy shit. What is that? What is that?

There she is. She is. So that's interesting. I can't wait for you to like just this, Sarah's amazing. We knew it. We knew it. We knew it. We knew it.

She got on the call started talking. We were like, there she is. We're like, there she is. What is that? What is that? There she is. I have a Sarah Paulson question. Your whole theater background informs everything that you do.

And I heard you say that text is queen. Your text derived. for your process and I heard you say that you dig in there until you find out what is at stake in every story like what's truly at stake and then you let that your person you become emerge from what's at stake do what is at stake in this story in the story of untamed um a life everything everything I think oh my God I mean um sometimes when I get asked at question where there's 15 answers to it. I almost like see a, you know, like a paint wheel that you get when you look at colors of paint. And if you spin it really fast, there's a million colors on there,

but they actually go white when you spin it really fast. So it's like I see nothing all of a sudden. The reason I said that about stakes when it comes to acting is because I believe in every person's life, everything is at stake all the time. And I think sometimes people, um, When you're acting, there's a lot of like throwing it away things and this casualization of things and making things less important. Sometimes it's a style of acting. And it's just never been my style because I always think anything anyone is pursuing in life matters more to them than anything in the world, whether it be, you know, finding shelter for their child or, you know, making a choice to leave a bad situation for a better one or, you know, what they want to put in their coffee. Like sometimes things like that are vitally important. Amen.

You know, and in terms of what is its stake in untamed to me, it's about survival and freedom and stepping into one's power and owning one's choices and being able to breathe. I think the book is too huge in terms of its importance and its value to even put, and almost also because of the way it's written, each piece. each piece of it, each individual, I don't even, what do you call them, Glennon? I mean, are they chapters? They're not even, are they chapters? Are they, you know, they're not? Yeah, they're not. So it's like each story, story vignette. I mean, I don't even, I don't even know how to categorize it, which is what's so incredible about the book, is that it's totally original, too. It's just never been, which is what's so exciting about what I imagine will be the thing about what, Sarah, you and Sarah will, that is so important, I think, to it feeling like the book is to have

it not be a sort of traditional way of telling a story. That's right. You know, because it isn't a traditional story. You are not a traditional person. And yet in its lack of traditional, is that traditionality? Is that a word? I like it. I don't know. I went with it. It becomes completely universal. It's like in its uniqueness, it is the story of every woman, you know, person, really. But it's hard for me to put into a kind of categorical stakes because I think each little part of the book, each one has a different velocity to it. And sometimes they're still and sometimes they're full of fire and sometimes they're quiet. And I don't know. It's just so like a person. It's so multifaccentive. Like a person. You know, it's so amazing to me. What do you feel like is when you think

about your life and your relationship to all people and to the queer community. What do you, because it was very important to me, I mean, I was just really grateful that you, what I would have called before now queer, that you were queer. Thanks for that, by the way. You're welcome. I did it for you. I needed that to be true. I did it so I would be right for this part.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Because I was actually severely, really important to me. And I read this that you said in the New York Times. A long time ago I read this, probably when I was obsessing about you. And it's funny that you just think that you were sitting there in your bed thinking, I should play this part and it was coming from nowhere.

It was coming from me across the country praying in my bed to God that she would tap you and say, make you really feel like you needed to play this. But you said if my life choices had to be predicated based on, what was expected of me from a community on either side, that's going to make me feel really straight-jacketed. And I don't want to feel that. What I can say absolutely is that I am in love and that person happens to be Holland Taylor. This is an ongoing life conversation between me and Abby. Do you identify as anything? I identify as a human being in love. That's how I identify. I sometimes, and this is a more complicated, I reject and resist that which is sort of insisted upon me by any person. It makes me crazy. And it's not because I don't want to belong or I don't feel part of the community as it is. I want to be the president of my life, the governor, the governess, the

mayor of my town and I don't want to be I I and I think sometimes it is a bit of a pushback that is just a you know because I I feel um I don't know like like I I don't want to have to answer to anyone I want to answer to me and I want to answer to those people in my life and I want to live honestly and make honest choices for me and I don't want to worry about disappointment I'm already like at war with my own disappointment in myself. I already am having to fight that battle with me and I'm quite a worthy adversary. And so I just, I just, just can't have the other noise. It's too much for me. So it's not because I don't feel part of it. It's just, I don't like a label in any which way and certainly not put on me by anyone other than me. So does that make sense? Does that

sound like, I don't, I don't want it to feel like it's a rejection of something, to choose that idea or that belief system for me works for me and I don't mean it to be a rejection of something else. I have no problem if somebody else, you know, wants to label me in one particular way or the other, I suppose, because, but it's not how I, I don't know, because, and this is, I mean, this will be the most inflaming thing a person could ever say, but, you know, I don't know what the future holds. I just don't want to worry about letting anyone else down. I want to be the only person that I'm worried about doing that with,

except for the people that are in my immediate circle that I, you know, who I depend on for my brain health and my heart health. And, you know, I get that deeply. It's kind of like religion in that way. Yeah. Well, every inclusion is an exclusion. Exclusion. Right.

That's right. I remember when actually Chase came out to us. I remember saying, you know, and if, One day in the future you change your mind, like, great. Like, we are good with you. Whoever you want to bring home. Whoever you want to be, we are good. Yeah.

It's not about us. It's about you. You make you happy. That's right. What did he say when you said that? Was he relieved? Or did he expect that you would say that? I think that I think he was just like really overwhelmed with having just come out.

So I don't know if he actually heard me. I'll circle background in a couple years and just remind him. We know what's so funny. is that we, that was our reaction and that was like the same thing that a person who is very different. Like a mother who, like your mom was like, this isn't necessarily real. Like you can change your mind. And that was on one side. And we were on the other side going, oh, you can change your mind.

But we meant it like in the most fluid progressive way. But it was the same thing as saying. Well, no, my mom didn't say you could change your mind. She just said, no, you're not. Yeah. I was like, no, I am. No, you're not. She's like, I'll just wait here until you change your mind.

Yeah, whatever. It's not about me. I just, I think it's so beautiful because I think it's really important that you just have to, every single person gets to be and do as they please, I believe. And that is true, truly what I think being a queer person. It's just like, you do you. And we shouldn't have to belong to people in order. to be seen and respected and celebrated.

Like that belonging and checking all the boxes shouldn't be a requirement to be seen and allowed in the world. Except you. You belong to me. Except for you. Yes. Yes. For your child, as the school year continues, patterns start to emerge.

You can see what's clicking and where a little extra reinforcement could help. That's where I-XL steps in, giving kids targeted practice so they can strengthen those areas early and keep moving forward with confidence. I-XL is an award-winning online learning platform that supports math, language arts, science, and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade. What I love is how seamlessly it fits alongside what's already happening in the classroom. Your child can practice the same skills they're learning at school, which makes it easier to keep up, feel prepared, and really understand the material. I-XL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get I-XL now. And we can do hard things listeners can get an

exclusive 20% off I-XL membership when they sign up today at www.IXL.com slash we can. Visit Ixel.com slash we can to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Glenn, your hair has gotten really long. Do you know what happened, Sarah Paulson? Tell me. Is that my wife for Christmas got me this fancy thing that is a blow dryer that blowdrys in magical ways from some weird company. And because my entire life, it's a Dyson. Yeah, this is not a commercial for Dyson.

Sorry, but it works. It's a great blow dryer. I have it too. And Abby looked at me today and I was actually using it, which is weird. And she was like, what's happening with all of these like waves? And I was like, I just, life is such shit right now. Like, I swear to God, Sarah. I just, I don't understand what's happening.

The pandemic. 2020's been a doozy. Yeah, it's already just, I know, it's just already a total, effing shit show. And I don't remember who I am or how to be human. And I'm just fucking blow dry in my hair, Sarah. Yeah, I blew dry. I'm just, I blew a, I blew a, I blew a, I blew a dry. What is it?

It's a tough one. I blew it dry. I bloated dry. I bloated, I blow dried it. You done blow dried it. I blow dried it. Wait. I blow dried it.

We blow it dry? We blow it dry? I blow it dry. No, that's not right. I blew it dry. I blew it dry. I blew it out. I had a blow dry.

I blowed it. No, it's not bloated. It's definitely not that. That shows you how. But I did this. That's so good. You have a curl. But then.

But see, My hair is curly, I have a curly weird hair. Same. Yeah, same. Another place where we are aligned. But I do think about sometimes the joy I'm going to have with your hair in this show. Yeah. Like early days long, long, long, town hair.

You can get real housewife extensions. I know you like real housewife. I do like them. And I, it's only because I want to play them all, really. That's the thing. Right. I do look at them and I'm like, explain to me what you're doing. I'm trying to understand.

to understand what you're doing. And I'm fascinated. Maybe I'm just tricking myself into thinking I'm doing something. And really, it's just like a way of creating some negative space in the brain where I usually have none. That might be it. So you're calling it research. I'm calling it research. But really, it's just like this.

Like a test pattern. Boot. That's the extent of my thing. Blue. I blood it dry, guys. I blew it. I blew the front of my hair dry. You blow it dry.

Well, I blow it. sake, I do hope you get to do, I hope they put in the scene when I first went out for Karen Warrior and I went on the Today Show and I was watching a lot of Real Housewives back then Sarah Paulson and they told me I was a mom and I didn't go anywhere really, but the bus stop and a few other places. And they told me to get TV ready. Okay. So if you're going to tell me to get TV ready and the only thing I'm watching is the Housewives, what I need you to do is Google at some point my first Today show. I, I have. I, had extensions down to my waist. I had a skin tight dress on with chicken cutlet plastic things in my boobs so that my boobs would look bigger. I had eyelashes that were mile and a half long. I had Botox in my forehead. And my topic was how we should show up as we are, vulnerably, transparently, as ourselves in the world. Okay? And nobody knew what to do with me because obviously. So at one point, They discussed, you had this viral essay about don't carpe diem, which has to do with, you know, knowing that being a young mom is hard and time going by fast. So you know how they put the ticker at the bottom with the, you know, it will be like Nobel Prize winner or like whatever. Mine said, mother who understands that time goes by fast and is okay with it. That was why I was on the date. And is okay with it.

My question is, do you have a date so that I, because I'm sure that you've been on the today show a lot. What is it? What year was it? I would have said it to you. I don't know. Please send it to me. Yes. It's, it's, it's too much to be real. It's too much. But I just, I'm excited about it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about also how I can find a chamber that I can step into that will just reduce my height by like. I know, isn't that interesting. It's just like I wish I could just. Well, you know, we'll do, Sarah. We'll just make. Every other person that's around you, four inches taller. Listen, they do things like this.

I mean, we don't want to give away all the secrets, but they could make a countertop much higher looking so that I'm actually not that much higher than the countertop compared to the, and then the person, yeah, you can do all kinds of, there's all kinds of short, short movie stars that have been towering over women for years. That's right. With the help of lifts and boxes and Apple boxes and camera angles, so we can make me look. How tall are you?

What? How tall are you? I mean, I know I've already Googled. You're 56, right? 5.7? No, I'm like 5, 6 and 3 quarters. 5.7? Yeah.

But I'm not really 5.7 because things have already started to like... Yeah. It's like 2020 and 2020. It was really hard. So I think I'm like 5.4 and a half now. Right, exactly. Probably. No.

How tall are you? Are you 5.2? I'm 5.3. No. No. Sister, yes I am. I just went to the doctor's appointment. Tell them.

It said 5.3. It said. Look at Switzerland over there. It said five three. The form that Glennon reported her height, it said five three. How tall is she? Amanda, how tall is she? She is five, two and three quarters. Yeah. What is a quarter? My God. I can't believe you've gone through all this for one little quarter of an inch. I'm just reporting it. She said she's five, six and three quarters. You're not taking her three quarters. You're round in yourself. Nobody will know. Nobody knows how tall people are. and television? I just think remember our Abby is she just has to be taller than I. Yeah. So open casting but you have to be seven and a half feet

You have to be seven and a half feet tall or we won't even see you. That's fair. We won't even see you. We won't meet. We don't want to see your reading. We're sure you're great. But no. That's right. So it'll help us narrow it down. I just think and what I mean by that is 5-9, 510 is fine because I'll be in some flats, I guess. That's right. That's right. Unless it's the today.

show and then you're going to need to wear still-like. Okay. We need to let sweet Sarah Paulson go right now. Oh, I hate when Sarah Paulson goes. We're going to have all these beautiful conversations because we're going to make such beautiful, wonderful things together this year. And I'm just... I know. I need us to start. Oh, don't worry. We've been starting Sarah Paulson every day. I've been, Sarah McCarran and I have been writing and working every single day. And if you understood the fire and beauty that is going on, I mean, Sarah, Abby walked into the room into a Zoom the other day.

I thought she was in a proper fight with somebody. Like that somebody was attacking. I walk in and I was like, what's going on? And she's just discussing, you know, feminist theory with Sarah McCarron. Like, they're just discussing the theory of it all. And she's like, she's like, don't tell me. And I was like, is everything okay? She's like, oh yeah, no, we're just talking.

I'm yelling at them. Right. Not her. Right. Them. Yeah. So the greatest news about this is that they're. she is. We found the right person. We did. Yeah. That's so incredible. And she is great.

It's a passion. I've actually spent a few hours with her. She's great. And she's, she's very, very, very smart. She's way smarter than me. And so is Ben and Jesse who's gotten us to this point. Yeah. I think she understands the book better than I do. So that was a bonus. You were like, that is what I meant. That is exactly what I meant with that sentence. It's just like no one else has brought it up. No one knew it, including me. But thank you. Oh my God. I'm so glad you exist. And I am so incredibly grateful that you said yes to this. And I just love you so much. I love who you are in the world. And I just think this is going to be the beginning of many beautiful things to come.

I hope and pray that that is exactly right. And I know it is. I just don't want to let you down. I'm working on it though. Never. Working on my confidence about being able to do this. Yeah. Aren't we all?

You're going to be great and I will be the best fucking cheerleader in the whole wide world. Correct. I know that to be. You're going to do great and Holland and I will sit on the sidelines and just marble. And they'll talk about how beautiful we are even without eyebrows. We love you. I love you. Thank you for doing so many hard things.

Thank you for having me. You're the absolute best. You're the absolute best. I love you. We love you. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. I walk through fire, I came out the other side. I chase desire, I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue to believe that unfore me, because I'm a, like the luck is where I'm Adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination They've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved We'll finally find Can do a heart

A brand new star Sometimes sometimes things fall I continue to believe people are free and it took some time but I'm finally

fun because we're adventurers and heart breaks I'm at a final destination we lack we stopped asking directions

to places They can do hard. And sure it's a play for bed. And too do hard things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.