We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 7. FIGHTING WELL: Is your conflict style making or breaking your relationships?

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

In this episode, in which Abby joins Glennon and Amanda, discover:  1. How Glennon and Abby realized that each of their recurring Five Fights (about money, food, etc.) are all actually about the exact same thing—and how it all goes back to their childhoods.   2. The guardrails Abby and Glennon built to protect each other when they fight.   3. How to handle a relationship in which one partner runs from conflict (Team Abby), and the other rushes toward conflict (Team Glennon). 4. The one red flag that Amanda insists is a relationship-ender. TW // eating disorders

And to be love. Hi, everybody. Glennon here. Thank you so much for joining me again for We Can Do Hard Things. I'm thrilled to tell you that today's episode is about fighting. What I mean by that is this. I think that every lover is a fighter. Because when we're trying to love each other well, what we're really trying to do is,

know each other deeply, right? What we really want is to be known deeply and to deeply know the other. And to know each other deeply, there always has to be some stretching, some extra trying, some conflict, right? So today we're talking about conflict with, obviously, sister, and also with Abby. Abby is the person I love the most, so also the person I fight with the most. And what we learned during COVID was that really most of our conflicts are the same five fights over and over and over and over and that they always have to do with once again, love and control. So let's jump right in to five fights.

Well, hello, everybody. I am here with my two favorite people, my sister, Amanda, and my wife, Abby. Say hello. Thank you for being excited to be here. Hello. And the reason the three of us are here today is because we wanted to speak about something hard, which is this. This is a hard thing in the center of Abby and I's relationship, which, let's just say that, babe, our relationship has been discussed in many beautiful ways and people rightly assume and know that we have a beautiful love story, right? So gorgeous. Yes, yes. And we are deeply in love with each other. And we also drive each other bat shit crazy

sometimes. Would you agree with that? That is also very true. Yes, for human beings. Yes. Yes. And one of the things. Right. And one of the things that we noticed during COVID this time where we had, oh, so much togetherness. Oh, so much family time. Which taught us that an interesting thing was that it felt a little bit like our days and our arguments were like Groundhog Day. Like we were having the same freaking fights over and over and over again. Did you feel that that was true? Yes. And, you know, you just never kept learning the lesson that I was hoping you were going to learn. And babe, vice versa. Vice versa. I can't see my joke, though. Come on. No, it's good, really good.

So we actually started talking to a couple other couples. And they also felt like they were having the same fights over and over again. So we thought maybe this is a universal thing that couples have the same fights over and over again. So today, the hard thing that we are bringing to you is our five fights, right? Okay. Dokey. We have again and again. So buckle up, folks. You're going to find that there are Team Abby fans and Team Glennon fans. And I just want to say, which one are you? I just want to say right off the bat that I don't want people to think that I am not aware that most people are on your side. I understand it. I understand that you're more lovable. But truly, I, you are my favorite kind of person, babe. But as it goes, I am who I am. And so these are the

fights that we get into again and again. Tell me, tell me which ones you're bringing to the table. Okay. I'm going to tell you the five I'm bringing. Okay. just as a disclaimer, we discussed this last night. Okay. So as to not actually get into a fight today. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And you agreed that these are ours. And there was really no surprise because it's obvious. Number one is food. All things around food. Okay. Number two has to do with talking. We will get into that. Okay. Number three is money.

Number four is absent-mindedness. Yep. Okay. Wild guess about whose absent-mindedness it is. And then our fifth fight is that we fight about how we're fighting. Okay? So there's like the issue. And then we start fighting about how we're fighting.

And then we can't remember what we even started fighting about. We're not going to be able to talk at length about. about all of these things because there are five things. So let's try to succinctly, I want to know how you would define our food issue because it's a lot of things. How would you describe it in a general way? I, the way I grew up and my relationship with food is different than the way you grew up in your relationship with food.

And in a lot of ways we are at odds with each other almost all the time. I have food scarcity issues. I used to overeat. I actually don't anymore. I need to stop saying it like that. You have restriction issues from your whole world of food. And so I think that because of that, we both were probably at the beginning super attracted to this thing.

Like, oh, she has this freedom with food. And the more that you got to know me, you understood that I was under the same kind of, in the same cage that you were in, just in the opposite way. So we'll be ordering food and I over order. And that's triggering for you and some of your food stuff that you've dealt with throughout your life. And so this is a kind of a has been. I actually think that we, Adam Grant kind of helped us recently with us.

Well, that's because he was on your side. I know, but don't you feel like it's a little bit better? Well, his point was, okay, we described the situation where Abby will walk into our house and we ordered pizza, right? We're going to order pizza. And there will be four of us or five of us. And Abby will walk in with five pizzas, right? Do you feel like that's, maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration. Maybe it's four pizzas for five people or something.

Okay. this is extremely triggering to me because number one, I was raised never to waste anything. Wasting was like sacrilegious, right? And then two, because I have had such issues with restriction growing up in my whole life, it scares me to have that much food around is the only way that I can explain it. It makes me, it freaks me out. But it makes Abby feel safe to have more food, right? have enough to make, she'd rather throw it away and, and have felt like there was enough

to feel safe. And Adam said, well, isn't it great that, that Abby can have safety and all it costs, you guys, is like a few extra bucks. Isn't that lovely? And so, yeah, go ahead, sister. Well, I think extremely relevant here is the fact that Abby was the youngest of seven children growing up. So in order to understand the scarcity issues and the being left with the leftovers that were not enough for her, I just think it's important. That part of the equation feels important. Yes. Yeah. And also, we can disregard Adam Grant's theory here for just a second. And I think it's a good theory, but I also think, you know, we have kind of come to terms with like some of these fights, like who it matters more to, right?

And because you have dealt with much worse circumstantial stuff around food, that 70%, 80% of the time, I defer to making sure that you feel safe and comfortable. But quite frankly, the way we've landed is if we ever order pizzas, I just, I over order. Sometimes lately you've been ordering, which has been wonderful. I do have some anxiety. But when I do order and I order an extra pizza, I just promise you that we'll eat it for leftovers.

That does help. That helps me. But there's another food issue that we have decided matters more to you and that I just have to arrange myself. And that is your complete and utter refusal to share. Yeah, that's not that that that's not that's like I'm calling marriage on that. Right. So like if you get a milkshake, right?

And I and I don't choose not to. And you don't get one. But like I really just want a sip of a milkshake. No, no. Then get your your damn, your own damn milkshake. You can do that. You have every moment. And I give you the option.

I sometimes order two. just to be safe that I get everything in my milkshake cup. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I understand that the world is divided on this and that there are. No, there is no division. No. There is the right way. That's how I operate in this way.

And then there is your way, which is completely wrong. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that's helpful. So sister, could you weigh in here? What do you think is correct here? because I just think that, first of all, truthfully, I mean, what's underneath all of this?

Because one of the things we've figured out is with our fights, there's always something that's really deeper underneath. So this is really not about milkshakes and whatever. This is the idea that because I'm a person with recovery, with eating disorder issues, I just want a taste of something, but I don't allow myself to have a whole thing. right? It goes back to the restriction stuff. So that, that is an experience with food that feels safe to me, that I can have a sip and taste it, but I can't allow myself the whole thing. And I actually don't even want the whole thing. So, but then I also understand just wanting

to keep your own damn milkshake. What do you think, sister? How does this, who's, which one of us are you in, in the relationship? It's funny because I, I have, I have, I, I have. I'm more you from the standpoint, obviously, of the way we grew up and what I is my core kind of negative self-dialogue that manifests this way. But I think that it's interesting to think of it from a safety perspective for both of you, because you don't feel safe with that much food in your house because you know, you know, all of the days of binging of it. It's like an invitation to relapse.

But it makes sense that Abby doesn't feel safe knowing that there isn't, that you won't cross a boundary and take her stuff. Like she doesn't have the safety of boundary around her food. Probably like she didn't for, you know, if there was one thing of ice cream in her freezer and she had six siblings who she never knew if it was going to be there when she wanted to have it. So that's a lack of like safety too. I do think food is so.

I just think a lot of these things break down into this key thing of like you're two, you actually are two separate people. Unfortunately, I hate to be the one to announce it to you on a podcast. Are you sure? Do you feel that that's right, babe? I feel like I'm 100% sure. I don't want to be the same. I want to be a mesh.

I know. We need an actual therapist on here. Right. But you are. So I just feel like, I don't know, I feel like the food in the house is a harder one. But I also think it could even be something like you just have to have a boundary around her food that she orders. Like you cannot cross that. That feels like since you know that about her.

I know. And I think that we have done that. And what I think is interesting and what I think we'll find out about all of these five fights is it's just fascinating that Abby's ability to be free and indulge is for sure one of the things that I found most attractive about her. And I think one of the things she found most attractive about me was my ability to be disciplined. Right. And so it's like the thing that you want from each other is always the thing that you end up. resenting about. Resenting. Right. But it's also beautiful. It's beautiful. Like what she has taught me to have joy and freedom and for food to be a celebratory experience too. So it's just the Venn

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cash on hand, what's trending in our inventory, and you can automate all those manual processes no one wants to do. Right now, get our free business guide, demystifying AI at netsuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at net suite.com slash hard things. net suite.com slash hard things. Our next one is talking. This one is endlessly fascinating to me, okay? Oh, gosh, yes. Because this issue of talking is about oversharing.

Okay? And I feel like people listening would probably think that since I'm the writer, since I'm the memoirist, that it would be that I'm the oversharer, and that is the opposite of our situation. Mm-hmm. Right? One of our most frequent arguments is that Abby has said something or shared something that makes me, how would you describe it, babe? Yeah, so I, like I said, not that this is an excuse, it's just evidence that I grew up in this big family. I actually just recently went back and saw them for the first time since COVID started. And I was in the room.

And I remember having this thought that I was so grateful that Glennon, you weren't with me for like the first time because it was so loud and it was so intense. And there was 15 people in this room. and they were all talking at the exact same time, and nobody was listening, and nothing was getting heard, and nothing was really getting said. And this was the anti-communication. And what ended up happening was I started to overshare something. And I came home and I told you about this experience,

and you were upset with me that I shared this information. And what I realize is being from a big family, where nothing is really said, like the more gossipy or the more you can share with people gets a little bit more traction. So there's a more attention that's put on you. And being in a big, loud space is like almost a trigger for me. So long story short, I'm a loud talker, which is annoying. I understand. I'm an interruptor, which is very annoying. I now understand. And this oversharing bit has complicated your trust in me to be able to share stuff with me, knowing that I won't share it with the freaking postal worker outside.

Like I see somebody, I'm like, oh, I can't wait to talk to them. And I am an extrovert, but there's a part of me, this like immaturity inside of me that I do want to work on that can't be, can't wait to be the one to share it. If that makes any sense. So is it the substance? Is it like, because I didn't know this about you too? Is it, is it there's something that you, Glennon would have thought was just between you two? And Abby shares it with someone else? It can be something that's just between us.

It could be something that I consider to be gossipy and not our business and something that. And I feel like since Abby is who she is, when she talks, people listen to her. And like it, I, it's like the food thing. I am super disciplined about the things that I say in a way that I feel. And I think through how it's going to make them feel and them feel and them feel and them feel to the point where on a spectrum. Where that's not healthy either. Exactly. It could be considered almost like manipulative, I think.

Or like overly controlling or Abby calls it's Exhausting. Witchy. It's exhausting. Yeah. But then on the other spectrum is just saying whatever, whenever, and not thinking about how it's that person's going to feel or that person's going to feel or the repercussions. Well, I have a question about that then.

Is it related to the substance of the information? As in you feel that the dispersal of that information could have. have a damaging effect on someone. Yes. Or is it, it is that as opposed to the fact that Abby shared that reflects negative on me. No. Because I'm not a person who would share that.

It's because it's going to come back to somebody and hurt someone, especially somebody in our immediate family. Like, watch out. Like if I've said something that exposes our children or Glennon in any way or you sister, she has a complete allergic reaction. to that, rightfully so. I'm not, I'm not defending myself here. And that's when I'm like, oh, yeah, I've gone and done it again. Like, there we go. So it's interesting. It's like the idea when you're, I think when you're in a big family, you speak to exist. Abbey has said to me

many times, I feel like if I don't talk, I don't exist. Right. So it's like getting a word in edgewise. And that's where the interrupting comes in. And we had issues in the beginning. of our relationship, which, you know, one of the reasons I felt so madly in love with you is the way you are with people and in a room and your presence is so huge and your being is so huge. And I am much more, in a social situation, I am much more quiet and much more introverted, right? So we used to have issues where we would go somewhere and we'd come home and Abby would be like, wasn't that amazing?

and I would be like, but you didn't notice that I didn't say one word the whole time we were there. You didn't even notice I didn't speak a word. I didn't. That's not the life that I lived before I met you. People were just ingratiated. Is that a word? Yes. Yeah, they were ingratiated in what I was saying.

And the selfish Abby, the former pro athlete Abby, when I was in it, like people, it's, it's embarrassing to think about those early days. And, you know, I remember feeling like, oh, she's trying to change me, you know, like she's trying to change my personality. But the truth is, especially something like this, that's so important, being heard and listening, finding some semblance of a middle, because, you know, I didn't want to make you feel like you were completely disappeared in a room next to me. Like, I wanted you to have your own space and take up your own space.

space. Yeah. And I think that's, I've talked to so many friends who have that dynamic. There's like one big personality and there's one maybe that is a little bit quieter. And so it's that both people want to be seen. And so it's sometimes falls a little bit more on the bigger personality to leave deliberate and intentional space for the other person who isn't going to just jump in. Yep. That's hard for me. I would remember. I would have to like, sister, she goes like, sometimes when we're sitting,

I will see her because she does it, like when we're sitting with the kids and she's trying to actively let them talk and not interrupt. She holds her lips together like a duck. She literally closes her lips like this. I have to do it. Otherwise,

but that could also go to an extreme, right? I mean, both with the food and the talking, if, you know, you also don't want this dynamic to be such, that Abby is, I am I doing it right? Am I allowed to, am I be being policed in this space? Am I talking too much so that you're not at ease? Because then the, you can try to please someone to death and not be at ease in yourself. And that's awful. Yeah. The good news about that, and I think we got to go on to the money, but the good news about that, sister, is that these two

specific topics are topics I really want to be more mature and understand more. So though it might look like on the surface that like, oh, Glennon has a little bit of a need for more control in certain circumstances, like in these areas, these are some of the things that I feel the most embarrassment and shame around my own personality, maybe not shame, but just I feel embarrassed like when I'm interrupting people and I feel like this immaturity rise in me that I need to say something. otherwise, like, I want to work on those things, right? And of course, I would end up choosing a partner like Lennon who could help me work through that stuff. And same. I mean, I feel embarrassed about

my hypervigilance in every room, right? Like, is that person getting, like, I love about you that you are free and open and not, not, you know, they call people high self-monitors or low self-monitors. So a high self-monitor is someone who's constantly, like, worried about how this, just, you know, sometimes changing, but always monitoring how they speak, what they speak, what. And I think that is anxiety producing for other people, too. I think one of the reasons people love you so much is that you are just yourself all the time. And so it's like all of these things are things that we both are mirroring for each other. that we're both working on, right? I mean, either one of us is like, do it my way. Like, I don't, the last thing I want is for Abby to be me. Jesus. And we've had to work through, we've had to work through, like,

dealing with that instant denial or argumentative or just dismissal. Like, no, like, because of course I make fun of the fact that, like, no, I don't want you to touch any of my milkshake and I actually truly, deeply don't want you to. But if you did. If you did, like it wouldn't ruin our life. You know, like we joke and much about this. But it's, you know, we have to understand that this has been a process and something that we have worked through. Like, I feel like we've made great progress.

Yeah. We should talk about money now, though. Okay. So money, I don't know. I do feel like we've gotten a little bit better with money. I would say that the overall gist of the money issue is that I'm sure the people who are listening will be shocked to hear that I am more anxious and concerned and conservative about money. And I have a general feeling of scarcity when it comes to money, right? And you have a general feeling of abundance and everything will be fine and it will all work out.

And we can spend money on things. Like how would you define our money issues? I would put it in those terms. I would go so far as to say when we first met, part of probably what has developed, part of a reason why you've created the money. thought around our family is because when I first met you, I was very frivolous with money. I spent it too much. I was going through a horrible time of my life. And it was like the only thing I could do that wasn't drinking that made me feel a little bit better. Yeah. And I think over the

last four years, five years, I've learned quite a bit about myself and the shortcomings of some of this abundance thought because it's just immaturity, right? So what I've actually been doing over the last couple of years, which has, I think, helped with your anxiety and your scarcity is I've just totally dove into learning about money and learning about investing and learning about, which has brought more control and maturity in the decisions that I make around money. So you don't have to be the one in our relationship to protect it. I know. Have you noticed that like I've been like buying things lately? You buy more stuff than I buy. I know because I used to be so scared to buy anything because I felt like well all the all the wastefulness has to be on that side and I have to be

so overly controlling and careful so that I don't have to get in fights with her about the spending. But now it feels like since you are being careful, I'm finding myself having a little bit of like, I don't know, I'm going to buy that shirt. It's so, it's kind of fun. And I'm really grateful to you for that. Thank you very much. And I did hear this thing recently that said, I also have been trying to live with less fear around money and taking on a little more of your belief that I don't know. I just heard somebody say recently that the reason why we get so nervous in our money stories is because one of us always feels like we're breaking our parents' rules about money. And my parents, you know, my parents were both very hardworking public school teachers and we always had enough, but we never had extra, right? And so money was to be very, very careful with. And any waste was shameful. And so whenever I feel like we're spending, I think I secretly feel like I'm breaking my parents' rule. Interesting. But our parents' rules weren't usually right.

Right. Right. One of the things that has happened frequently with us is I used to say, well, we can afford it. Yeah, that used to drive me. And that would drive you bonkers. And I understand, I was listening to this book the other day, what I have to say to you is based on our financial blueprint and based on our long-term goals, I think this falls in line with us still reaching our goals at the time we want to reach our goals. Right. So I just had to find a new phrase that is true and it rings true. It just doesn't sound like, oh, I don't want to deal with this conversation right now.

We can afford it and I want to be done with it. Exactly. It feels intentional. Yeah. Yes. Because I feel, okay, saving yay, giving, yay. Spending intentionally, yay. Wasting bill. So I just have to know that it's been thought through and it's a decision and not just like an impulse or something.

Yeah. I mean, it's so fascinating to me because I think all of these things, they're like about food and taking up space and talking. and money, but they're really, when you think about it, they're about feelings of security, feelings of trust, feeling the way you, what you view as an indulgence or not, and whether you're worthy of it, safe around it. I mean, it's, they're all wrapped up in these core beliefs about like, am I going to be okay? And I mean, if you do this, is your, are you worthy of trust, is your judgment good enough? Is it going to be like, am I going to be secure? Am I going to have what I need? Is all of my, you know, if I, if, and also what does it mean in the backdrop of

my day-to-day life? Like Lenin, you work your ass off. So you're always working. So it's like, if you are so regimented about all your time is working and then you see a purchase that you you see as frivolous, do you receive that as you have no respect for how hard I work? I do a little bit. I used to. I know, but yeah, but not even one. Right. Like, I also work too.

Yes. And I, like, I get to spend my money and you get to spend your money. Like, that's an important thing to say out loud. A hundred percent. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that it is, that it is a correct assessment. I'm saying that does the gut reaction. that it immediately comes to that place because it's like a deep core. And the depth of like some of it being childhood trauma.

I mean, I will never get past the part where I'm, this is where I can't get past, where I'm like, okay, I know that it doesn't make any sense for me to have a sip of your milkshake. But it's childhood trauma for me. So even though it doesn't make any sense, can I just please have a sip of your freaking milkshake, even though it's not a good, even though it should be a boundary. And then Abby's on the other side. Come to me with that. If you said that, honey, to me, every single time I would give you a sip of that damn

milkshake. But you don't say that. You say no things and you go in there secretly into the freaking refrigerator. Take a sip. I know you, I literally, I know where you've walked. I know what you're doing. You're trying to do it secretly. Which is also childhood trauma because Glennon and I used to sneak food because we weren't

allowed to have it. So, but what I'm saying is that, like, it's, you also have to recognize Abby's childhood trauma around never being secure enough to have it. And there's a third way. There's always a third way. It doesn't mean, please indulge my trauma or you indulge my trauma. There is this third way that, Glennon, you really could allow yourself to get the milkshake, have this sip you want, and throw the rest of that shit in the trash. I know. And that's what I think we're working towards. Okay, what I have to, what I will say about that, I am not yet at a place, even though I'm working my ass off and I will someday be there where I trust myself with the whole milkshake.

I don't, I've never taken three sips of milkshake and throw it away. It brings back all my old binging stuff, whatever. So I'd rather just pass it up. But what we come back to is this like immovable object and, or impenetrable object and immovable, like force. It's like, whose childhood trauma? Do we bow to each day? That's literally all we're trying to figure out, right?

Totally. Okay, so we actually, you all, we are at 30 minutes. I don't know. Should we save the other fights? Oh, you want to not save, you just want to not get to the one that you suck at. I see you, Abby. I see you. Okay, so we did through talking of money.

Guess we won't get to absent-mindedness. Okay, so we'll go to absent-mindedness. Okay. And then I think what we'll do is we'll save the fifth fight for another time because it's all about how we respond to each other's fights. I don't know how to describe this one. I have no, this next one, I'm calling it my absent-mindedness. I don't know, babe, how you would describe it, but it's just this thing I've had since I was a kid

where I am not paying attention to anything that's going on in the physical world. And so I'm constantly losing things. I'm constantly breaking things. Can you just, can you just try to describe it? Yeah. I mean, I think that you are a unique human being because the thing that makes you so unbelievable, a genius, an artist at what you do, is your ability to think through really difficult problems and make them sound simple to the rest of us. and that takes a process and it has its toll. There's like there's a cost to it. And some of those costs are leaving a full cup of coffee inside the washing machine inside of it.

Nobody knows how that happened. And we can't, it hasn't been proven that it was. Also, hold on. Let me just get through a few of these. Also the, the fact that you still will not stop using my razor, no matter how many times I've asked you. to stop using my razor. That's so hard one. And so now I just have to change,

I have to change her razor heads for her. Because the thing is, she looks down and she sees two razors. She literally can't remember which one is hers. No matter how many times we tell. She's written my name. We've had tutorials. She's given me pneumonic devices.

It's unbelievable. So you know, so you literally can't tell. It's not that you're like, I see this is Abby's and I'm using it. You're just like, oh, damn it. I can't remember. I'm literally standing. ending in the shower, staring at two razors, going, shit. Well, I do think that you, I do think you figure it out because you always,

always use mine. And why do you always, always use mine? Because when you're in the shower, passive aggressive shit. Yes. Because when you're in the shower, showering and shaving, you don't clean that shit off of the freaking razor. You don't clean your hair off. So when you look down to the two razors, you look at the head that looks the cleanest

and you choose that one. That one is always mine. So I go in there and I look at my razor and it has hair all over it. And I look at the other one and it has hair all over it. I'm like, oh, she chose my clean razor because it was clean. Who wants to use a dirty razor? Nobody. I just want to tell you that I love you so much and I can see that you're giving me too

much credit. That's not a process I would ever go through. I would never pick something up. You've seen my toothbrush. Do you think I've ever picked something up? and been like, this is too dirty to use? Never. I am disgusting.

You are disgusting. I would never pick up my razor and say, I would use a razor that didn't work for 20 years. I would never think this thing doesn't work so I should change it. I've actually figured out I have to hide the razor in the shower. That's smart. I've been hiding it from you. And it's not easy because there's like, you know, only three places that could be behind the freaking shampoo bottles.

So what do you attribute this to? Because I've always said, you know, this is something that's happened throughout my life. I run into things. I mean, this isn't, I have a lot of bruises because I actually run into doors. I will be driving and I find myself going somewhere. I'm not going. I am living inside. Our kids call it moms underwater, right?

I am living so much inside my head that I'm not. paying attention to the outside world, which so in our family, we say, mom can do hard things, but she can't do easy things. Yeah, I think that you, I think that sometimes what's happening inside of your own head is more interesting than anything. A lot of people would feel offense to that, but I actually know how smart you are, so I don't necessarily disagree with you all the time. I just have had to figure out how to manage around it because during the book writing process or even the creation of this podcast, like you go into a different realm. Like you have a different realm that you live in in some ways. And so that's why you leave stuff in certain places and I find them.

That's why the cabinet drawers can never get shut. you know, things of this nature. When it comes to the children, you don't really forget anything when it comes to them, which is really interesting. So that's interesting. So she is selectively prioritizing what she will pay attention to what she's not. And so her ability to do that, does that feel disrespectful to you, Abby, because you're like, well, you've chosen to come out of your world for this thing.

you just don't choose to come out of your world to leave my razor alone or to not put gum on the console of my vehicle. So look, I decided to marry Glennon. I decided to marry her after having learned this about her. And I think that part of what makes her so special is she actually needs it. She needs to feel like somebody else is going to like take care of stuff when she has to go into this different world or realm or in her head or whatever. And there is going to be a cost that I pay. But that's part of why I was put on this earth, I think.

I do. I think that there is a unique kind of person that can handle that. And I was built for it. So it's going to annoy the hell out of me forever. I know that also. But I think over time I'll stop caring as much. You'll go dead inside? Yeah, a little bit.

Well, what you just said, Abby, that you knew this about Glennon before you married her, that it's part of what makes her uniquely her that she needs it. I wonder if Glennon, you could think through the food, the talking, the money, and try to, no, through that framework. Like, you knew this about Abby. Did you already order your team Abby's shirt and you're just not wearing it today? No, I am not, I am being totally objective here.

I really am. Like, there are things that Abby acknowledges and celebrates as part of you that are annoying as hell. I'm not saying it isn't annoying the things that are true about Abby. I'm just saying that it's interesting to things. to think about those things less from the perspective of what Abby just shared about you. Yes. But I think that I have more of a personality that accepts people for who they are a little bit more

than tries to witchy them and control them a little. Like, no, and I don't mean that that's bad of you. That is 100% true. Yeah. That one of the most exceptional things about Abby is for supernatural ability. ability to love people exactly as they are and without condition. I have never seen it before. I don't believe I'll ever see it again the way that she has it.

And it is something that I, it is something that I would not want to change about her. Yes. And it's why we work. Yes. Her unwillingness to change you. Her unwillingness to change me. It's not something you would change about her. I find acceptable.

And with that, we would. will break and we will come back with some hard questions. I love you both so much. Just the way you are. Don't be mad at me because this was really therapeutic. It was wonderful. It was wonderful. I love you so much. Love you too. It's a new year and instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my my space to feel calmer, more functional, and a little more like a place that can reflect my goals and energy for this year, which is why I've been turning to Wayfair. It's truly a one-stop shop for

everything your home needs this season. What surprised me most was how easy it was to find exactly what I wanted in my style and within my budget, whether you're organizing kids' rooms, upgrading your work from home setup, tackling clutter, or just trying to make weeknight dinners easy. Wayfair really does have everything. Your home doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to support the life you're living right now. Get organized, refreshed, and back on track this new year for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R-com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Okay, we are back with questions.

from various pod squad members for Glennon and Abby. And the first one is from Jacqueline. Hey, Glennon. I am just finishing up my sophomore year in college. And I've been in about a four-year relationship with my girlfriend. We fight sometimes. But I fight more than others. I'm the one who fights.

And sometimes my fighting can be really unkind. and anger is just like one of those feelings that I don't know what to do with. So I guess my question is, how do you and Abby fight? Because Abby reminds me a lot of my partner. And what do you do when maybe you're about to say something that you really don't want to say or you know that you're going to explode or one of the other one's going to explode? I really relate to you Glennon. I've read your book and it really changed my life.

I recommend it to all of my friends. Okay. I love you. Thank you so much. Okay. So Pod Squad, if you could see Abby right now, what you would see is that that entire time that Jacqueline was talking, Abby had her hands over her mouth and was freaking out. And babe, I'm going to guess the reason.

Okay, you'll have to tell me if I'm right. I'm guessing that you actually think that Jacqueline is me that, like, I recorded that question and pretended to be Jacqueline because it sounds like maybe Jacqueline has some some similarities. Some similarities. So just a few. Yeah. I love Jacqueline, by the way. Jacqueline, I love you. I am you, first of all. Second of all. So, babe, we get to talk about not only our five fights, but how we fight. Because you and I actually fight about how we fight. Yeah. I mean, that for sure is the most lesbian thing ever. First of all, Jacqueline, thank you for the question. I think you know, it just feels, I feel warm when I hear other people talk about some issues that we have.

That's for sure. Yeah. Totally. So let's talk about conflict first because we've figured out just recently, actually, that we have different ideas about conflict in the first place. That we both have different beliefs about conflict that makes it tricky. right from the start. Yeah, like what purpose, the conflict is serving? Like, what is conflict in general in each of our lives? Right. Right. So we figured out that I am very, very conflict. I'm a fan of conflict. You're pro. I'm pro conflict. I always feel like what we're trying to do down here

is understand each other better and get to the root of things. And I have always understood conflict to be the vehicle one uses to get to the root of things. Yeah. Right? And I believe that conflict is the end of us as we once knew it. Right? I think I think we just figured out that you think of conflict as constructive. And I think of conflict as destructive.

Yes. Right. And so we have considered the fact that maybe this is what we were taught in our families of origin. Right? I would say that my family of origin was very, we had a lot of conflict, like high, high intense happenings all the time. Oh, I mean. How would you describe it? Cellular? Yes. Okay, great, cellular. So Abby, how would you describe your family's approach to conflict? Avoidant. I mean, when you're living with nine or 11 people in one house, one conflict can ruin it for the rest of the bunch.

So it was celebrated to brush conflict under the rug. And so that's how I learned to deal with it. And that is actually one of my greatest strengths and also one of my greatest weaknesses because I am very much a conflict avoider. because I don't want to ruffle the feathers. I don't want to mess up the juju of the energy of the family. And that's so interesting for us because in the beginning of our relationship, we'd get into a conflict and I would feel like, oh, this is good. And you would retreat and feel like, oh, this is bad.

Right. But I have a question about that because if the, it's like peace, peacekeeping versus peace. making because Glennon, you can't, you are very, very comfortable with external conflict and vocalizing conflict to resolution. You are very, very uncomfortable with internal conflict. So when you have an internal conflict, you vocalize it, you work it out. That part feels good to you. But Abby, when you, when conflict, inevitably, there must be some, like when something isn't going right and you avoid the outward conflict. Are you experiencing an inner conflict in that

moment? Yeah, I definitely experience it as uncomfortable on the inside, but I don't necessarily show it on the outside, right? So like, I don't express the need to be in conflict as much as I'm feeling the need to be in conflict. So my body's going through conflict. I'm actually probably my body's suffering and I'm not getting that conflict out. So what I have, learned through being married to Glennon for four years, beautiful four years and being with you for five is that actually saying what's going on in your insides and getting them out is the only way to living a peace, a peace-ish life. Peaceful-ish.

Peaceful-ish. Yeah. Like that. Can you tell the folks how we fight, like what's our number one, like, way of operating? Okay. So when we finally get to the point where we're like, okay, we can trust conflict, right? Conflict is how we get to know each other better, how we show each other our insides. All, you know, progress. It took me three years to get this comfortable with conflict, by the way. It was a slow slog. Well, to be fair, just, just, I mean, I just don't, I want to push against this idea that there's some people comfortable with conflict and some people that aren't. Abby, the type of conflict you're comfortable with is inner conflict. The type of conflict, Glennon is comfortable with outward. She's uncomfortable with inward. You've gotten to the place where you're comfortable enough with inward, more comfortable than outward. So it's just, that's interesting. Everyone has some kind of conflict. Well, it's, yeah, it's the idea of there's a price to pay. It's choosing what price you're going to play, right? So it's like, but I also do believe that as women, we are trained to look at a situation,

look at a room, be at a table, be in a relationship, and count the cost of saying the thing. Count the cost of expressing ourselves. Count the cost of saying what we need. And that will cause too much drama, chaos, or other people's discomfort or whatever. And so we don't want to pay it. But what we haven't considered is that there is a price to pay for not saying the thing, for not expressing the thing. And that price is never being known.

And that price is slowly dying inside. So the idea is that there's a price to pay either way, which price? Well, and I think that the way that we choose and the way that we have worked through this is that we promise each other not to go after each other's weaknesses. and knowing that I go straight to shame, there is the price that unfortunately, like a toll that you pay every time that we get into some sort of conflict. And the toll is you have to make me feel safe.

Unfortunately, I'm sorry, babe, that you do. You have to make me feel safe that you will not leave me before we head into any kind of conflict. And it's annoying. Like I bet that that has to be so frustrating for you. But that, unfortunately, is the price. the price of entry to this kind of conflict to make me feel like we can do this on even terms on some level. Does that make sense? Yes. It was like putting safety. Like it's like when you go

to the bowling alley and you have to put those like, well, I do. You know how the bumpers? When we go bowling, you get me the bumpers. Have you ever been bowling? Yes. We remember when we went with the kids and I got the bumpers. Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. So the bumpers of those first conflicts the first couple years is we figured out that I would have to say to you, we need to talk about something, but please understand that I'm never going anywhere. Like, I want to talk about this hard thing, but please breathe and know that we're going to make it through it and no, there's nobody's leaving, right? Nobody's going anywhere. And that was, but it's gotten safer lately. Like we don't necessarily need those bumpers because you know I'm not going anywhere.

Because you've allowed me to jump to my prefrontal cortex. Like I've been operating in my reptilian brain and you've given me time so that I have the space to go from reptilian brain to the thinking brain and rationalize, oh, she isn't going to leave me. But before early in our relationship, I didn't know that. So I was like only operating with like these past experience. So now I feel comfortable getting into a conflict with you and knowing you aren't going to leave me without you having to necessarily pay that same kind of toll because my brain has rewired itself. Like truly, like that's kind of like it's magic. Like your brain is valuable in that way. What's the price that I have to pay?

Okay. So if people have the bumpers, right? So we say, okay, we're going to enter into conflict, but everybody gets their bumpers. So you and I have this theory that the second we go into conflict, that each of us has like this bulletproof jacket. And we use this phrase, the bulletproof jacket in our family all the time from many different, well, I'll talk about it many times on this podcast, I'm sure. But it basically means that when we go into conflict, we feel vulnerable, right?

Because the reason we've got there is probably because we're hurt or we're sad or we're fearful, right? That's why we've gotten into the conflict. But hurt, sad, fear, those are very soft, vulnerable emotions. And so heading into conflict, we all throw on a bullet-pocket, right? That is some sort of emotion or approach or way of being that makes us feel less vulnerable, right? So mine is always anger and right. And right. So mine is always anger and right. Okay. Anger and rightness. Yours is shame. So early in our relationship, what the bulletproof jacket does is it makes it absolutely impossible to even talk about the thing you were talking about before. Because now you're dealing with each other's representatives. You're not even talking about

the problem. So mine would be, it would drive you nuts. I would turn into a lawyer, like dissecting every single words you said, making you, making you feel wrong, making you feel afraid. I remember you figuring that out a while in and saying, babe, if you want to do this, you'll, you'll always win. That's great. You're smarter than me in that way. A war of words. You have, you're better at words than me.

You will win this game every time. The game. Right. Right. And so that's when I figured out that that was my bulletproof. jacket and we'll get to why we have these. Yours was shame. So what would you go to every time we got into any kind of conflict?

I would go to rage. I would go to. Shut down. She's leaving. Right. And that, I'm terrible. I'm awful. You're going to leave me.

And that would frustrate me to no end because then... Then I become the victim and you have to take care of me. Yeah. Right. So then I don't even get to have... my feelings anymore because I'm pulling you out of the fetal position. I mean, it's a good tactic, right? Like, you got to give me a little credit because it's.

It is. And the reason why is it's beautiful because what we figured out is that, and I want you listening to like really think about this is that we put on our bulletproof jacket in conflict to, I think, cover whatever is our deepest shame belief about our self. ourselves. Okay. The reason that I always argue about rightness is because my deepest shame belief because of my childhood and because of how I grew up and because of all of my various diagnoses is I am crazy. I am over-emotional. I am too much. I am illogical. I am, nobody is going to be able to take me for long. So I start listing all the reasons

I'm right because I want to prove to you that actually it's logical how I feel. And then what do you think like your shame? That's why the tagline in Untamed is I'm not crazy. I'm a goddamn Cheetah because I am constantly my whole life trying to undo that shame belief that I, my 10 year old self decided when she was sitting in therapy sessions for the first, all the formative years of my life, that I will have to spend my life pretending that I'm not crazy. Right. Right. And what's yours? Well, I mean, growing up in the family that I grew up in, having so many people needing the attention of your

parent, right? And there's too much, too much need for too little attention. And then being this gay kid, right, this, this young gay kid inside the Catholic church. fearing literal hell, right? Choosing myself over hell, dealing with the kind of internalized homophobia that still lives inside of me today, sadly. I feel like I'm an abomination and I am bad when we enter into the conflict and you saying, I'm never going to leave you. I love you.

And then we get into the conflict. that's helping my brain rewire itself. That's helping me work through some of this trauma. And so we just, we've promised ourselves never to use the very thing that is our biggest weakness or our biggest vulnerability against each other in conflict, right? And so your. That's, I think, what fighting affair is. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And I think that your tendency to shoot into anger, right? Like, I want to talk a little bit about that because, you know, why do you think anger is your go-to? Well, I mean, I think that growing up, I learned that love is loud, that love is like, you know, that conflict is the way you do things, that I had an extremely loving family. I also, there was a lot of anger. So I'm sure that. Because would you say that I also, like, do you think that I, well, here's what I would say. I, you, it makes me angry how little you get angry, okay?

Like, it pisses me right off, okay? So you're, it feels like, I, I feel like maybe you probably Jacqueline's partner. would relate. Like you, it feels to me like you are very uncomfortable with anger. I'm too comfortable with anger, right? That's my go-to. And it feels to me like you are averse to anger that you don't. Like sometimes I just want to be like, are you feeling this?

Because I sometimes feel like I have to feel it all. And here's what I secretly think. I think you feel like you have to stay steady for me because I'm fired up. But what happens when you get fired? up. What happens to me? Oh, you go super calm. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm like, oh, I get to be the calm one now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So like when I, when I do get angry, I don't have a difficult time feeling anger. I have a very difficult time showing anger. So it's, it's happening inside. I'm angry. But one of the things that I've learned throughout my life, is this.

In a marital relationship, it has never, or in a relationship, period, it has never benefited me to respond out of anger, not one time. Well, what do you think about, we have talked before about the anger also being this, I don't know what this is, okay, but whenever, when we get into conflict, you have an amazing ability to remind us to always be on the same team. I tend to, I don't know why this is, I tend to the second we get into conflict be like, okay, we're opposing teams. I need to win.

I'm blah, blah, blah. And you are always reminding me, wait, but aren't we on the same team? Yeah, you go right into individual sport athlete mode. You're like, I'm fighting for my life. I'm the only one over here. This is do or die. And I'm fighting to the death. And I'm like,

ho, ho, ho, ho. Like, back up a second. Like, no matter what happens, like, we're on the same team, right? I think we're missing part of it on the conflict because it doesn't apply to you two. But I think we should talk about it. Because one piece of conflict, Glennon,

and you said one of the reasons that Abby does. bring conflict up is because of a historical lack of trust that it will be received in a correct and gracious way. But I think there's a whole other basket of folks that it also has this issue of trust that it is worth your time and effort because anything in your relationship will ever change. Yeah, that's good. Because it's this whole, I mean, it's this whole idea and it relates so much to conflict for me because part of it, I am a very high conflict person. Anger is my mother tongue, just like you, Glennon. There is the comfort of the default emotion that makes you feel safest. And when you're desiring to be understood above anything else, being able to make your case. So that the other person will understand you is, I get that completely. And so I bring a lot of, quote unquote, conflict.

But conflict with the goal of resolution. I mean, conflict resolution is in fact one of the greatest things that you can accomplish in your life and in your relationship. So for me, when I view people as not bringing conflict up, I think it is a, I think it's being unfaithful to the relationship. I think it's, it's an abdication of your role in the relationship and you are actually hoisting on the other person, the responsibility to resolve your conflicts, the responsibility to speak those things out loud because people go their whole lives, never voicing any conflict,

not because there isn't conflict, but because. they're either too lazy to do it. They don't have the trust in their partner to receive it, or they're just like, you know what? I tried that for seven years and not a damn thing changed. And I'm done. And that's when you get into the scary places in your relationship. When you, when you, seriously, when I catch myself not bringing up conflict, I am like, that's scary. Oh, red flag. And it's a big, because, because it's an absolutely. It's a Slowly dying. It's apathy. It's a slowly dying. It's apathy. It's a slowly dying to and not really, it's a, it is an atrophy of the relationship because you are not, it's an investment to me. I view the willingness to bring conflict to the table to make yourself vulnerable. It shows a faith in your relationship, an investment in a relationship, a belief that your relationship could be better than it is. And if you do not bring conflict to the table, you are. saying my relationship is never going to get better.

It's going to be the same shit every day over and over. I have the greatest metaphor for any sporty spices out there. It's like when your coach doesn't say anything to you is when you should worry. When your coach is saying things to you and still coaching you and giving you pointers, that means they're still invested. It's the same thing. Sister, you just like, you just healed something for me. That was good.

That's so good. And I think that's why, honestly, that's why it annoys me when people who bring up the thing are seen as like difficult or whatever. And I'm like, to me, I see it as generosity. I see it as I'm spending my energy on this thing. Like I'm offering myself. I'm offering, to me it feels generous. Well, and this is the cost.

It's like a cost that you are paying to have good relationships. Glennon, you have wonderful relationships, and I don't. I have a couple of decent relationships, but you have wonderful relationships with the people in your life because you are paying a price of entry and you're saying hard things and you're whether you're afraid or not, I don't know, but you are comfortable with the conflict, which leads to a resolution. It's really beautiful. Well, and I would say, oh, sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, I would say, that you have taught me more about how to, I'm amazing at bringing up constantly.

I'm amazing at bringing the thing. And then I suck. And then I go into roly-poly, ragey spice, getting nowhere. I would rather be right than kind. I would rather be understood than progress, than make progress in the relationship. So I'm good at, well, babe, it's like everything else in our relationship. It's like starting, it's like cleaning the garage. It's like, it's like, I'm great at starting. And you are great at finishing, right? Like, once we get started, you are the one that keeps us kind. You are the one that stays

vulnerable. Well, I'm, I mean, remember, I'm just thinking about the last fight we had argument in the car. Even like my body language, I shut down. I like turned away. I, I, like, I'll, you know, sigh like it's, and you stay tender and you stay vulnerable and you constantly remind me that I'm not too much and that I'm exactly enough. I remember saying, I'm exhausting. And you saying, no, you are exhaustive. And that was so beautiful to me. It was like, well, you are going to bring up every damn thing.

But it's not exhausting. It's just the wrong. And what we found out with bringing up every damn thing is it's a little bit the rightness, a little bit the control. I just recently figured this out that like when you're repeating, like we've come to the end and we're just like going over the analytics of what we've just talked about. I understood in the most clarity that I've had in a long time. I was like, oh, I get this. Okay. So what she's doing right now is we're creating now a new frame of reference. a new starting point. Yes. So she's putting her flag in the stand. And this is where we begin from now, from here and now. Yes. We have carried the ball.

Yes. We have carried the ball down the field. And here's where we will pick a bag up. I need to see progress. I need to see progress. I need to say this is the, okay. So now we have not wasted this last hour. Here is the true or more beautiful mutual understanding.

We have agreed upon as of this moment. It's like when you get off a really mind-numbing conference call for work and somebody's super smart and is like, okay, in short, here's what we've come on with and here's our calls to action. And you're like, oh, that person's so smart. That's what I'm trying to do for us, babe. But I realize it could be seen as ever so slightly controlling. Okay, I love you. Let's come back for our next right thing.

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Midi, the care women deserve. Okay. Here's our next right thing for this week. With your Pod Squad, think about this question. When you get into conflict, when you feel afraid or sad or hurt, what is the bulletproof jacket that you pull on to protect yourself? just what is it? Maybe we don't even worry about solving it. We just think about, you know, I have Abby and I and Craig have three kids and we noticed when they were little when they'd get afraid, when they'd get in trouble. The oldest one would always get a humor. Okay. Like I would confront him and he would burst out laughing. And it was so infuriating until I figured out, oh, that's what he does when he's scared, right? The middle one would go immediately into a shame spiral. I am terrible.

I am awful. I am, right? That was her. The youngest one, absolute apathy. Shut down. She just shut down. Just, you could see her eyes go glassy. Like she just, I'm not here anymore.

I'm not here. It was like a baby who like covers their face and it's like, maybe if I cover my face, she'll go away. Right. So let's just think this week, what is your bulletproof vest that you pull on when you're feeling vulnerable? as you go through this week and life gets hard and it will please remember we can do hard things thank you so much for listening and we will see you back next week i give you tishmilton and brandy carlyle

i came out the other side i chased desire i made sure i got what i was mind and I continued to believe that unfor me because I'm a cause we're adventurers and heart breaks a map a final destination they've stopped asking directions to places they've places they never been to be like to be known we'll finally find through I can do a heart it felt like a brand new star and sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe the best people are free and it Took some time, but I'm finally fine.

Because we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map. A final destination we lack. They stopped asking directions to places they've never been. And to be looking do hard. We Can't Never Been And too We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.