We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 77. Double Date with Brandi & Catherine Carlile!

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

In this hilarious and heartwarming in-person double date with Abby and Glennon—and their dear friends and brilliant artists Brandi and Catherine Carlile—we learn: 1. Why Brandi was completely dismayed the first time she met Catherine; 2. Who made the first move—and why it made Catherine sweat; 3. All about the Carlile family compound—where they are raising their girls surrounded by family, band members, and exes; 4. How they communicate and deal with jealousy; and 5. Why Brandi believes this conversation—two queer couples sitting on a couch publicly discussing marriage, family, and domesticity—is revolutionary. About Brandi: Brandi Carlile is a six-time GRAMMY Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, #1 New York Times Bestselling author and activist, who is known as one of music's most respected voices. Her new album, In These Silent Days, recently debuted at #1 on Billboard’s Americana/Folk Albums chart, Top Rock Albums chart and Tastemaker Albums chart and continues to receive overwhelming acclaim. The New York Times praises, “Larger than life and achingly human…she empathizes, apologizes and lays out accusations. She’s righteous and she’s self-doubting. She proffers fond lullabies and she unleashes full-throated screams," while NPR Music declares, “absolutely breathtaking, across the whole album Brandi Carlile pulls out all the stops. It’s just extraordinary…she’s just claiming rock god status." Carlile recently received five nominations at the 64th Annual Grammy Awards including Record of the Year, Song of the Year and Best Pop Vocal Performance for the album's lead single, "Right On Time." Following a breakthrough debut on "Saturday Night Live," Carlile and her band will embark on a series of landmark concerts next year including stops at Washington’s Gorge Amphitheatre, Los Angeles’ The Greek Theatre and New York’s Madison Square Garden among many others. In addition to her 6 GRAMMY Awards, Carlile has been recognized with Billboard’s Women In Music “Trailblazer Award,” CMT’s Next Women of Country “Impact Award" and received multiple recognitions from the Americana Music Association Honors & Awards including Artist of the Year for the past two years. TW: @brandicarlile IG: @brandicarlile About Catherine:  Catherine Carlile has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience. Since 2012, she has served as the Executive Director of the Looking Out Foundation, which has raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes including close work with Children In Conflict/War Child. She also serves as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions. Prior to her current work, Catherine worked with Sir Paul McCartney in coordinating his charitable interests and endeavors. Originally from London, Catherine now lives outside of Seattle, WA with her wife, Brandi Carlile, and their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are continuing our conversation with six-time Grammy award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, number one New York Times bestselling author and activist and our dear, dear friend, Brandy Carlisle. But today we are having a double date. We are joined by, of course, my beloved wife, Abby Wambach, and And we welcome Brandy's wife, Catherine Carlyle. Catherine, one of our favorite people, has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience. Since 2012, she has served as the executive director of the Looking Out Foundation, which has raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes. She has also served as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions.

And you'll very quickly find out she has an amazing voice. She's also an incredible writer. Catherine and Brandy now live outside of Seattle, Washington, with their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah. Let's jump in. Her secret is that she did voiceovers before she moved to the same. That's my secret dream job. Okay, we're going to start because I want to talk about that.

No, no, no, no, that's not. Oh, no, really? No, no, I mean, we can talk about that plan. Don't worry. Anything could be. Perfect voice. Are we recording? Okay. All right. So you've just, you've just joined already our double date.

This is, we can do hard things, double date episode with Catherine and Brandy. And you've kind of interrupted us in the middle, but that's okay. You don't need to apologize. Yeah, just to give the four and one, we just had lunch. And so we're technically now in the after food portion of this double date. Yeah, it's the after party. And we were just learning that Catherine used to do voiceovers. This doesn't surprise me at all. Tell me more. Shall I or do you want to tell?

No, tell the person who does the voiceovers we want to talk. It was, I worked at a studio as a studio manager, and they would do voiceover stuff in the studio. Listen to that voice. Oh, stop. And then one day, one of the vocal coaches doing this voiceover work said, you should do it, you know. And I said, sure. And I had like a couple of lessons and did them out of my cupboard under the stairs. Okay.

If anyone's listening right now that like is in charge of voiceovers, you just need to hire Catherine. I can listen to you all day. Actually, that is a line in the rock. Is that what it's called? Yeah. It's so good. What is that line about when Catherine goes for a walk and you're so codependent that you can't handle her. Me and my garden and you out on your walk is all the distance this poor girl can take without listening to you talk.

I mean, listen to her. I know. She's only human. I love some. I get it. Okay. How did you guys meet? And who asked out who first? Yeah.

Who saw who first? Ooh, I love this. This is so exciting. Well, I knew what Brandy looked like before she met me because obviously, you know, she's Brandy. Right. And I did not know what Catherine looked like. And this is actually very funny because I was involved in a campaign in the States called the Fight the Fear campaign. We were teaching women self-defense in response to a really violent crime that happened in Seattle.

And Catherine had been reading about it all the way over in the UK. And she got in touch with my manager and asked if her and Paul McCartney, who she was working for at the time organizing his sort of charity stuff, could donate anything to the cause to help us raise funds. And my manager connected me with her because she ran a foundation and I had just started one. And so I was being mentored by this person for quite a while, actually, like little over a year. And I knew some things about her.

I knew she had a girlfriend. I knew she liked the Indigo girls. And I knew she worked for Paul McCartney. And I thought she was Paul's age. Oh. Going back to the voice. I thought I was talking to like somebody pretty close to like 70. The whole time.

So when did you discover that she is in fact not? When I saw her. And how did you see her? About two years later. In New York. She came to a show. in New York City, she'd come to New York to work at Paul McCartney's office in New York City

and came out to a show. And I remember the tour manager being like, hey, the charity lady that's going to be at the show. And I was like, oh, I want to go out to the gay bars with the lesbians. My friends is in New York City. What the hell? You know? I'm going to see the charity lady? Wow.

And I got back to the dressing room and there was Catherine in her 28-year-old glory. we were both 20. I just couldn't believe my eyes. The shock of what I thought Catherine would look like to what she did look like was just really disarming. Did you love her right away?

Yeah, what was like the first thing you said to her? I think I made, I think I said, I thought you were 70. Yeah, you did say something like that. Smooth. Yeah. And she was there with her girlfriend. Oh.

Yeah, so it definitely wasn't love at first sign. because we weren't in that headspace. And Kim was back at home in Maple Valley. And her and her girlfriend were going to go to Memphis. They wanted to see a place that rock and roll was started. And I was like, don't come to Memphis. Come to my house. And so they did.

And we became fast friends. We played guitar all night. We cooked steaks. And I did love her right away. I absolutely thought she was just the funnest person. But it was a really platonic at first for another year. for one whole year? Yeah.

And then who made the first non-platonic move? Well, Brandy... I say her, she says me. No, you got you winked at me. You gave me a really big cocky wink. Whoa. Yeah. Can you describe the, like, what?

Yeah, we were at a blackjack table. I'm a cliche. It's a long story. And she had her leg cocked up on the chair. Uh-huh. She looked at me and gave me the most confident wink I've ever received. And it made me feel really nervous. And I thought, ooh, what am I supposed to do about that?

Probably winks at all the girls, you know. I was sweating. Yeah, it made me sweat a little bit. And I would say that was the boldest move. It was the first time that we were like, oh, you know, Maybe there was no tension. There wasn't any of that long drawn-out lesbian friendship tension thing. It was just like, that was the moment.

I was like, she is so gorgeous and really fun. And, you know, my brother was there with me and people in my family. And it was just like there was just something about it. It just belonged there. And I was like, I'm just going to give her a wink. I don't know whether to be like impressed or disgusted. No, I'm not impressed. Because like a wink, it's just like a wink.

It's so confident and like wild. Very confident. I don't know. I might want more than this. Like one of those. It was like an open for business way. It was like I'm open for business. It was a sign.

Okay. It was a lesbian sign. Yeah. See, I'm new here. So I didn't know that was one of our signs. I was relatively new too. Oh, oh, okay. We have a handshake to.

I'll show you later. We have a one handshake. We're finally going to show me. But then we didn't see each other again. We went our separate ways. But when we saw each other again, it was like, I saw her and she saw me. And as soon as we locked eyes, I remember, she was standing in the front of a tour bus. I was standing in the back of the tour bus.

And that's like, that's it. I've done. Nothing else. And during those three months, were you guys in connection, like contact, communication? Really casual. Very casual. Yeah. Catherine had sent me some music.

She'd been making some music in her band. And I had sent her a bit of music and there was no, nothing, no hidden agendas in it. We just, I think we knew. we really knew instinctually, and actually we never really talked about this, to keep enough distance between the two of us. Well, there was a lot of distance. To where when we did come together. I lived in London, too. Yeah.

Yeah. You knew that something, we had that. We were like, we know this is going to be like an almost holy thing. But not yet. And so we need some time to get our shit together. So that when we get together, neither of us hurts each other kind of thing. Yes, we did that. Or compromises our own integrity.

Yeah. Yeah. That was like a really, like we wanted to separate from our former lives well. Yes. So that we could step into our future. Yeah. Because we want to enjoy telling this story, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I do. Yeah. Did you both have that full sight? What would you say? She was more mature about it than me. I was like, what the fuck?

I just want to see you. Yeah. Right now. I made and held the line. Yeah. That's right. And I'm really grateful because it is a story. I love to be able to.

tell and I feel really good about telling it now in hindsight. It was too important. And I remember thinking you were too important. Like this is not something to mess with. Yeah. And you met on a book till, right? Yeah. Super sexy.

A librarians convention. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Two thousand librarians. Yeah. I was just thinking about that moment. So there were like seven writers lined up on this dais and then there was maybe 2,000

libraries. It was the hugest ballroom ever. and then they, and Abby. Okay, so seven writers and Abby. And this was like at the height. She was just retiring. And so then they said, okay, you can all come up for to get your book signed. So then all the seven of us writers sat there and there was one line up for Abby.

It was so awkward. I was like trying. I wanted her to think I was cool. And there was no one in my life. So I just had to be like, I'm just not doing signatures right now and like walk out. It wasn't quite like that. It was like that. I mean, listen, I'm not a writer by trade, but here I was trying to, like, sell my book to the librarians of the world.

I hadn't even finished my book. So they all had their books. Oh, wow. And I just had, like, like a cover sheet. She was deciding whether to actually tell the truth in her book, whether to talk about addiction. And she came up to me in the hallway. We were walking. We had never spoken before.

I was already in love with her, but. Because, you, it was love at first sight. Well, now I see it as desire at first sight. I thought it was love like magical, mystical, Disney love. It was. It was. But now the drugs have worn off in her brain, you know. Not the drugs, but the science, the chemistry in her brain.

Yeah. It was love at first sight. But we were walking through the hallway and she stopped me and she knew that I had an addiction background. Because she read all the little blurbs about the people who were going to be there. And she was like, I'm really, I don't know if you've, I don't know if you've heard like what happened to me. I'm like, I don't, I, where would I have heard? Like, what are you? I don't do sports.

I don't know what you're talking about. Like what? And she was like, like, like, on ESPN. And I was like, no, no, I haven't watched ESPN. She had just gotten a DUI and it was a really hard time for her. Yeah. But she was so terrified to talk about addiction. She was thinking about putting it in the book.

Because for somebody who's like a shy. any Captain America type, sports type, they have to be perfect. Right. It was so weird for me to hear because as people in music or a writer, I'm like, so what? Yeah. Everybody has addiction. Yeah, what is there even to write about? I was like, yes, what else would you write about?

Yeah, it was the first time anybody in my life had ever given me advice that didn't require me to be perfect in order to stay where I was. Right. And I just remember she touched my arm, electric. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck? And then she goes, I have a rap sheet as long as your arm. Like in the real world, we like real people. And I was like, oh.

So that's what I can do. That was my wink. Yes, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Good advice, too. So the tour bus, the wink of the smart person. Right. The wink boundaries.

The smart person boundary. Well, I didn't have like a blackjack table on my leg on. It's pretty cool. That's not really my jam. Okay, I wish there was a crystal ball to tell the future sometimes. And I'm sure anyone who runs or wants to start a business would totally agree. Fortunately, there is a lot of tools out there that can help you if you find yourself in this position, including one of our sponsors, NetSuite. NetSuite offers real-time data and insight for so many business owners.

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oh shit, something is happening? I mean, not in that moment, but I felt it actually prior. I remember like I was on this greyhound in bus traveling to see her. Dedication. I know. I know. I got on a fucking, excuse me. I got on a Greyhound bus.

So that was love, obviously. Yes. But I remember feeling really nervous, like, really nervous. And I didn't have an appetite. And that's when I know there's something wrong with me. And, yeah. You love food. Yeah, I love food, yeah.

But, no, I do remember the bus. And I do remember it kind of becoming obvious that it was like a mutual attraction and that maybe there was hope for us. But it all felt a bit hopeless at the time. Okay. You do have a lovely voice. I know.

I forget one of a podcast. It's like, ask after more questions. Keep talking. Ask half been more questions. I know. Okay, so hopeless at the time because you were in different places. Different countries, yeah.

When did you decide, okay, I'm going to freaking move to America and live? in a commune in the woods with no heat. There's a lot. I make heat. The fire gets made every day. Which is so awesome. Can you tell us about your house?

Tell us about your house. Well, it's a log cabin. It's a log cabin. The foothills of the Cascade Mountains. Yeah. I get that right? Yep. Yep.

And it's a really beautiful place. It's really humble and there's a wood stove. And you feel like you're going a bit back. in time. Wow. It's just really cozy and it's beautiful all year round. It's just... So you split your own wood and you create your own heat. Yeah, every single day. There's no heat like it. And there's no heat like it. It's like forced air just like blows stuff around. It just feels, and I don't like the way it feels. I like kind of radiant heat. And she does too, because that's like all the cobbledy streets. Higgledy-piggledy houses.

You don't have air conditioning or, you know, heat coming out vents. We don't have dryers. We have radiators. Or warm water. Oh, that's so interesting. I'm just... Water. I don't know. I can't even you if you're telling me that right now. So, you know, there's this wood stove. You know, I've lived in this house for 21 years. It's a wood stove right in the middle of the room. And the room is, everything's in kind of one room.

There's like a little loft with a couple of bedrooms. The kids are in and everything. But for the most part, this is just big wood stove in the middle of the house. And we just make a fire and keep it going. I'll keep a fire going for like three weeks. Oh my God. And then just let it go out to clean the wood stove. So when it's really cold, what happens in the middle of night? Well, you know, you pack a wood stove, especially when you get really, really used to for all these years in such a way

and you close down the dampener in it to where it starves the fire of oxygen, just enough to keep it warm. But there's like that flame and blazing and everything. So when you wake up in the morning you just introduce the air and it goes, lights itself back up. This is a metaphor. This is a really good metaphor. What do you guys fight about the most in the log cabin?

It's the splitting of all the wood. Of course. We have pockets of dysfunction and they complement each other actually. I have an issue about dishes. We're good fighters. We fight all the time. You don't know because I've never seen you fight. Well, the cute bicker things like dishes are one of them.

But no, we don't like, we don't want for anybody to think that there's anything unnatural about having a good route. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So what would be about? What was your last, like, actual? We are having a conflict. We are going to have to work through. Not just like, you know, a housekeeping one, but like a real one.

We normally, you know, Christmas is an interesting time, you know. We typically fight around that stuff. We fight about alone time. She needs it. I don't. And she doesn't need it from me, which is weird. Like, if I'm there, she still feels alone. Do you worry about that?

That whole thing. It's a very good of paying attention to myself. But, like, you know, I want company. I remember, like, being a kid, like, my favorite sound was gravel under carwheels. He was like, who's here? You came to surprise me today. And I'll change everything. Like, if you come for dinner, I might not want you to leave for three days, you know?

and Catherine's just like, what the hell is wrong with you? Yeah, Catherine, that's my favorite sound too, but it's because people are leaving. I like company. I just, I like to know when people are showing up and when they're going to leave as well. That's important information. But yeah, we've learned to like live with each other around that kind of thing. But big fights have come of that. You know, I want family to come and stay and she thinks that we need some family time away from other family or whatever.

So we've had been fights about that. We've fought about COVID. Oh, God. You know, neither one of us hates to not be in control of the situation or not know what's going to happen. I don't know. We're just like we're together all the time. We get that. Yeah.

You too must be. Yeah. What about you guys? What's your most constant fight? We fight about control. Like I tend to be a very controlling person. and so Abby is uncontrollable and that is like

which bends first the impenetrable force or the image it's that I think has been interesting but I think we fight mostly about how we fight so it doesn't matter the fight like it doesn't matter what the problem is

it's that after the problem we go into this pattern where I'm trying to be right I don't know what are you doing you often go to shame. So like if, so something happens. Like, Abby drops something and we're fighting about dropping. She'll be like, I'm the worst person in the world.

I can't believe I did that. And so then I have to be like, no, you're like such a good person. And then I'm pissed because I'm like, wait, how did we end up here where I'm talking about what a good person are? You dropped the fucking thing. That's clever. Oh, that's a good thing. That is a whole kind of thing. And then we feel like we have these bulletproof jackets.

I feel like when you get hurt, get hurt, hurt is like, what do you do with hurt? So then you put something on, right? Like Chase, you always put on humor. You just start laughing about everything nervously. And then, or one of our kids would go to apathy. I don't care. Whatever.

So what do you think your bulletproof best is in a, that covers hurt in a fight? Well, I think you kind of hit on the head with the shame bit. I put a shame jacket on. But at the end of it, like, what does that all mean? And it's, I think it's a power play. It's how do I get out of this to win? Right? Same with you.

Control is a power thing. And like Glennon, if we were to get into a real argument, will 100% of the time win. Because she is very smart and very good with words. And we'll come up with 72 different cases in which this just happened. The point was proven. And that's where we start from. This happened yesterday.

We were walking. We got in an argument. And it was that. It was like, she said, okay, do you want to be right. Oh, wow. It's just like I don't, that's, I'm not in this. That's torture. Yeah, I'm not in this to be right here. It's awful.

I'm telling you right now, whether it's right or wrong, what you just said hurt me. And she's like, can you understand that my feelings are hurt? That's what actually. Can you just stop and understand that my feelings hurt? That's brilliant. That's really good communication. I wish I could say when my feelings are. Amazing.

What, wow. I mean, the result that would get from me would be. like excellent. Oh, my result wasn't that good. Well, you're often still stuck in it. One more time. I want you to listen to me, explain why what I did was right. So what did you, what do you say when your feelings are hurt?

Like, how do you express yourself or not express yourself? I have arrested development emotionally. I can only express one emotion, which is typically anger. So I won't feel sadness. It's just an extension of, sadness anyway, angered. But that's how I would display my emotion. And I actually don't know at the time that I'm sad at all.

I just feel angry. So I make sure I tell her exactly how she's feeling all the time. Oh, pretty. That's good. That's a good strategy. And if it's not like worthy of her, like it's being disproportionate, I say things like, get a hold of yourself. Oh, that's really.

Do you tell you to calm down? Have you read a newspaper lately? Pull yourself together. These are really effective. Yeah. It's my favorite. So you say pull yourself together. Yes.

And then what do you say after that? Calm down. All my favorite ones. Well, I typically, so you go to shame. That's your armor. I actually fall asleep. She sweats with her. God.

This hair comes down. Because she's so brilliant and intellectual and measured and articulate and seems to have all the answers all the time. and seems to have control of herself. So I get so exhausted by it, not being able to articulate myself because I'm feeling all the things, because I'm all about nerves and feelings, and she's like up here. So I have to fall asleep.

It's just so physically exhausting and mentally draining. And it always happens in the car, which has made me think she can't drive, so I never let her drive because I'm afraid she'll fall asleep. And I'm like, oh, it's because we always fight in the car and you fall asleep. And then you wake up and you're like, oh, what should we have for dinner? Like everything, it's like, everything's great when I wake up.

She's sleep. That's her, that's her palate cleanser. It's just a 10-minute nap or whatever. I love the way that she processes feelings. And I don't think she has the rest of development at all. I think she's going to live to be 110 years old because of the way that she walks through the world. That's amazing. And it's like, I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with Catherine at all,

except for all the things she thinks are wrong with me. that's a good one well one of the things that I struggle with with Glennon because everybody wants to get back to that no I think that this is important because the feelings bit like

Glennon feels like the world's pain a lot but she struggles in her own personal life to actually be able to access those emotions so sometimes I'm hurt I'm like literally crying

I'm upset I'm crying and she Something shuts off or shuts down inside of her Where she just goes completely cold It's so terrible Gone Do you know what I think it is? What is that?

Arrested development But also You're perfect But also I think I've never said this out loud before But I think that I was raised as a girl A very girly girl Okay

So I was raised to be in a heteronormative relationship. And I was raised with toxic femininity, which expects toxic masculinity. And in a marriage, that means I am vulnerable and you are not. And if you start to get vulnerable, I'm scared as shit. Because wait a minute. Who's going to protect us? No, you can't do that. Like, what's happening there?

Who's going to protect us? Whoa. I think it's like a deep, like, it's like that thing where women want their male partners be vulnerable. because that's like the buzzword right now. But actually when you see it, the most feminist women inside are like, be a fucking man. Wow.

It's this weird thing. When you're taught that you have to be passive, you have to, you need a dominant person. It allows you to be passive because you know that there is a dominance. But I have both. I'm dual, right?

And so when I go, dare I say soft or when I actually have real like emotions, Glenn's, I can see it on her face. It's a hardening. Like, I can feel it, but I know that's not her. Like, I know better than that. So I have to like, I have to explain my real true depth of sadness.

I'm sorry. I'm working on it. I know. And you're doing a good job. Thank you. Did you have like overly emotional parent? Did you have to comfort an overly emotional parent or anything like that? No.

But I was, I feel, I think I was raised in a loving but very volatile household. And so when someone else that I love, it sounds with my sister too, by the way. When someone starts expressing very strong emotions, whether it's like yelling or cry, it makes me freeze up. Oh, yeah. That, and I believe my whole thing is feel it all. Like I, then when someone to me close to me does it, I'm completely stunned. Not with the kids. Except with the kids.

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Well, it's cool. It's like my band that I've been in for over 20 years, like they're 20. brothers, Tim and Phil, and one of them married my little sister. Oh my gosh. And so like 21 years ago, I bought this five acre property with the log cabin on it that I still live in now. But there's all this property around it because it's like out in the middle of nowhere. And like as our family has grown, people have started to buy property around it in the band.

And it grew to 95 acres. So Tim and Phil moved on with my sister and then Tim's wife and they had kids and now the kids are growing up together. And then because bands are so, can be so insular if they choose to be, Catherine has two sisters that lived in Boston on the East Coast. And when they graduated high school, they would kind of come out on the road and hang out with the band or sell merch or whatever. And then our band's cellist married Catherine's sister. And then the engineer married her other sister. And they all moved to the compound too. Wait, I did not know that part.

Each have one child. So we live with Catherine's sisters, my twin brothers, my sister. And, you know, so all in all, it's six, eight kids now on 95 acres where we just walk to each other's houses or take four-wheelers or whatever. And, you know, lately we've actually been thinking about how we can continue to get together because we've gotten. It's actually getting so overwhelming for my house, which is now the smallest house because nothing's changed, you know. since all those years ago to get, but I, you know, like, I'm destined to be the young matriarchs. Like, I wind up cooking everything and we wind up in my house and it's like, it's too many people now. Well, can't you just build right next to?

We're talking about it, like a big barn or something. Yeah, a big kitchen. A pull-down dishwasher, like they have the elementary school, you know. That's so good. The holidays are hilarious. We have to, like, stage all of the kitchens. cooking. Like if I do a roast dinner, it's, oh my goodness, it's like, I have to do like, you know, three trays of roast potatoes and then I have to cook like, you know, three

different turkeys and three different ovens. And there's not enough chairs. We have to go get the drum thrown and the piano bench and all these different things and the kids chairs and everything. And we have to feed Kim too, you know, you know. We have to feed Kim. Kim's next door. Kim, explain Kim. Kim. Kim. Brandy's ex. Brandy's ex. She lives next door. Okay. So Kim, okay, because that's my.

normal. Yeah, that's a really normal. I left that one out. I want to know with you too. So do you not deal with jealousy in your marriage? Oh, I love this question. You live in, your ex

lives in a house next door to you. Yeah. I just, you guys are very evolved about this, for real. But like, how do you, do you not, are you, neither of you jealous people? We are about each other. Like, if I thought that

someone had a crush on Catherine or she had a crush on somebody that was actually meaningful, I would lose my mind. I would become a danger to that person. Okay, that makes me feel better. Thank you. We are that way. So I just wanted to.

You both that way. Yeah, we both are. I mean, Abby always says she's not jealous, but what do you think? I'll let you speak for yourself. Well, you just got to this gay world. And so there's a part of me that you're naivete when it relates to other women that come into your life.

I'm always just like, because I have not only gaydar, but I can sense energy really well. And I'm like, be careful there. And also, I have to admit that I have a lot of PTSD and getting cheated on a lot. So it was just the nature of never being home. That's so weird. Why would I think that I could be in a relationship that I never was home for ever? Same. Yeah.

It's like it surprises me now that I could think that that would work. But anyways, yes, I do get jealous, but mostly because, and I don't mean this in an offensive way, because I don't think that you're paying attention to some of that. To vibes. Yeah. I don't even know if you know what to look for in that. Well, I didn't know about the wink until today. Interesting. Here's the thing.

You do with men. Well, that's because I, yes. It's just like, no. Oh, gosh. Like, because it's repellent. Well, and then coming from the other. side, when we were talking in the last episode about being newer, the hard things about coming out later and coming out earlier, I don't know what the boundaries are. Like, I was, I was, oh, I was,

I had friends, I had friends that were women. And like, we didn't, we just, we didn't have boundary. I mean, we didn't make out, but like, we, we were very close. And like, now suddenly I'm supposed to read things in a different way than I ever have before with women. So, I can see your point, I guess what I'm saying. Yeah. But I think you'd know. Yeah. I think I would know too.

I'll know first. So to answer the question, yes, Abby is jealous. I'll know first. I'll have already wondered about it. We'll have already had a conversation. It's all right. So, but you are. And are you jealous?

I mean, every lesbian in the whole wide world wants Brandy. Yeah, so it's very hard for me. I think I'd have a real problem if I really, brandy. I think I'd have a problem if I was innately, I don't think I'm an innately jealous person. And I do have to accept that there's a lot of women falling over Brandy. And I just see that as a compliment. But no, if there was ever anything meaningful, you know, I would be very similar to Abby, because I think Brandy may not see things straight away just because of how intoxicating

and how magnetic she is and how her profession, people romanticize singers and artists. and they read too much into the lyrics and there's like, infatuations happen very quickly. Interesting. I mean, I've probably said to you a few times, like, oh, you know, just pay attention to that person, you know. Yeah, and you're always right. Really?

Yeah, she's always right. Okay, that's good for me to know. That's good. I mean, the very first person I told that I was going to ask Catherine to marry me was Kim. She was so excited. And she's the one that told me to go and make something more of what, of what she could see that Catherine was to me. She was the biggest supporter of our relationship.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that Kim's like the most evolved person in the world or anything, but she is, you know, special to me and she loved me most of my, has loved me most of my life now, or a big part of my life. And so she just saw, she's like, yeah, the Catherine thing, that's, this is it. This is when you go. Wow. That's really special. It is.

It was. And yeah, now she lives next door. That's why it's not awkward. Right. Sometimes it is. Like she has little compulsions. What do you mean? Like walking into our bedroom and being,

caffeinated and telling us how to load our dishwash? No. Yes. She walks into your bedroom every morning. Well, yeah. She won't mind. She'll think this is funny. This is amazing.

Or like if we go somewhere, it's like I drive because I have to drive everything, but no one can drive me. And Kim has all these little caveats like built in. Like she says she's got sleep apnea, which I don't think she does. And she says that she... Do you think it's weird that Kim and Catherine both fall asleep when you talk? Or do you... Because that's a coincidence.

I'm just seeing a pattern. She, uh... No, but I'll give that some thought. One thing I do know is that she gets in the front seat next to me, and then we fight the whole drive and Catherine sits in the back seat and last. Kim gets cars sick. Everywhere we go. It's me and Kim in the front seat.

And I'm not allowed to drive, apparently. Like parrots. There's Brandy White knuckling it with Kim. And then I'm like... the kid in the back and I'm watching my parents argue. It's like so fucked up. This is your time alone. This is your time that you get to yourself.

That's when I also fall asleep. Yeah. You're watching in your life. So you don't, Abby and I have now finally decided after five years of trying to make it work that I just actually refuel. I will never drive when Abby's in the car. Like it's done. It's over.

See, I made that decision about a month ago too. A month ago. I'm just not doing it. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. Someone's going to die. I told you I was sorry about that. I told you I was sorry immediately.

Are you what is it called a backseat driver? Is that what you do? Do you scare her? Like Abby scares me. Do you? Oh, oh. Yes. Yes.

I mean, to be fair, I'm genuinely terrified. Same. And to be fair, how many cars have you hit in the last seven months? I mean. How many? This is a hard place. How many times have you hit our car on things? I don't know.

I'm okay driving here. We moved. and the streets are thinner, right? And so it's just like... Oh, the old thin streets, true. Yeah. They're not thinner than the cars. Cars fit just as well when I drive.

Some of us just have things that we're good at, some of us have things that we're not, and it's okay. What came first? Because I never had a complaint about my driving, and I didn't have any accidents or anything, and I drove on the other side of the road, and I thought I was doing really well. and I only deviated to the wrong side of the road once

and... Oh, that'll do it. She wasn't even in the car, by the way. But now I feel like she made me a really bad driver because she's putting me on edge all the time and making me second-guess. That's true. And by the way, when have all of my accidents been in just recently?

Can I ask you both a serious question? I've lost my confidence. No, but can I ask you both a serious question? Yeah. When we're, when you're driving with Brandy and you're driving with me. Would you prefer to be driving? Or would you prefer to be in the passenger seat?

Let's be honest now. Yeah. I would prefer not to be driving. See? Because I'd yell that. That would be my answer. You would prefer not to be driving because you are sleeping. And you are sleeping every single drive.

It could be five minutes. It could be an hour. It's the hated. It's the hated. It's the hated seat. The biggest. The biggest complaint I have is I think she will fall asleep. No, if I feel sleepy, I wind the window down and it's all fine.

I think the Catherine is a spiritual genius. This sleeping thing is the answer. It really works. It's good. It really works. She can really sleep this girl. So what ways do you feel like you are the most similar? That's a good question.

I don't think we've ever been asked that before. We're actually similar in so many ways. I think we're both artists. For sure. And, you know, there's a whole lot of who's going to protect us going on sometimes because when we transition into that place of being artists, there's no adult in the room. Oh, wow. That's cool.

Like what? Give me an example of what that looks like. Well, I think you have to tune out and go into another place when you create. And we have two kids, so. We can't both do it at the same time. And that's interesting. That's an interesting scenario. Quite often that will be a source of frustration for me because I always feel like naturally that space should belong to Brandy first and foremost because it's our bread and butter really.

Whereas for me it's more of a hobby, I guess. We're really sensitive to each other's writing. Like my wife is so cool. Like there have been some times where, well not sometimes, every time. time if I, and I don't write very often, but if I do go glossy-eyed and I wind up at that piano and I will look around 20 minutes later and every light in the house will be off, there'll be a candle, a glass of wine and she'll be gone and so will the kids. I'm witnessing. I'm like, she did it again. Well, I'm witnessing something that's come in from, you know, somewhere. You're

witnessing something that's come in from somewhere? Tell me what you mean. Well, she would say it comes from God, but I'm, you know, a British atheist, so it's half a minute to get on that. You're agnostic. Agnostic, yeah, sorry, whoops. It's so interesting. I do that every time Abby said she's atheists, I'm like, agnostic. I know. Agnostic.

Agnostic. Yes, I believe in something. I don't know what it is. Agnostic. But, no, and she's not a disciplined writer, and she doesn't write all the time. It's very whimsical. It's very spontaneous to the point where she could just be going past the piano and just go, plonk, and then be like, like, you know,

like, ooh, and she'll sit down, and then she'll write this masterpiece. So for me, that's a really precious thing, and I'll do anything I can to facilitate it, because I know how these things come and go, and, you know, you should seize the moment with creativity, even if it's inconvenient, you know. That's super magic. Beautiful. That reminds me of the real key thing that's love is protecting each other's solitude. Yeah. I thought you were going to tell a story that that reminds me of a time when you did this. No. I know that's what I'm saying.

Are you going to tell them I build you a cabin or do I have to do. Oh, yeah. She did. Yeah. Okay. Tell me about that. I mean, come on. Well, we live in a very small log cabin and I was after a couple of years of marriage and, you know, two kids or whatever.

I was starting to crave some space. And we have a very busy house. Lots of people coming and going all the time. Her favorite sound, the driveway, wheels on the. on the road. And I was going solely insane at that point. So she was very intuitive about it. And she suggested I needed a room of one zone, right?

Virginia Woolf. I definitely didn't have that. And she created that space for me. Me and those Amish guys. Yeah, it was like a log cabin. Do they live with you also? They came from Montana. Hamish and Jables.

Stop it. Are you being serious? No, dead serious. Amish guys. Came out and stayed on the property for about. five days and we built the cutest log cabin for Catherine. It's filled with instruments and all the things that she likes. And she goes out there and writes all the time.

And I just installed blinds because I realized like I could still see all the things happening. And I could still see my children. So I have to like have a blind pulled down as well. Yeah. I had to work in the closet. Yeah. That's right. And then when I thought, oh, I need an office because I'm a grown up, right?

So when we moved houses, I got a big office and I couldn't do it. Did you go back to the closet? I wrote all untamed, even in our new house in the closet. In the closet of the office. Really? It was like a little troll, like underneath a Eve and like, and it's one little teeny table and had to be. Because of that, I would still see, like, remember my life. And I can't remember my life.

So you write, how often do you write? Because we get to hear all of brandy stuff. Oh, just whenever I can, you know. It's not a priority for me. I always choose work and kids and brandy. But on the rare occasion, I'm disciplined enough to be like, I'm going to that log cabin to write. I typically have a great time and end up being really prolific and productive and I love it.

What do you love to write about? I like to write four other people. I find that really interesting to put my head in, you know, walking somebody else's shoes and try and write for somebody else. That's a really good exercise as a writer if you feel like you're uninspired by your own. happy life, you know? I write about my kids, about brandy, whatever's on my mind.

And do you not have, because one of the things we talk about is like, people say, well, there's a kite in every relationship and a kite holder. And like, the kite holder is the one who holds the one who's out there and doing all the things. And that's kind of bullshit, right? Because then there's one person who always has to be grounded. Right?

So, you know, with us, there's like somebody who's staying grounded and then switch sometimes. Do you guys feel that or do you not have a desire to be as out there as Brandy? So you don't have anything that's like, I wish I was doing that. No, God, no. No. It makes me so nervous watching her have to do these terrifying things all day long all the time. I'm much happier to just support and watch and, you know. So now I don't.

I don't have a desire to do that. But I'm very immersed in it and interested and inspired by it. Yeah, so no. I don't want to get on stage and do that. It is so terrified. I remember seeing her, we went to your, I was about to say, Coming Out party. Yeah, the album, the release of the album, we listened to the album. That night was so ridiculous.

What that fun? Oh, my God. It was, okay, so listening party. So it was a bunch of people in a backyard. And it was the first time anybody had heard the new album. Yeah. And you performed some of it. Played all of it.

On the ocean. People just sat in couches and listened to it. And I think it was the first time a lot of us had been out in a long times. Yeah. And seeing all of those amazing. And it was safe. And it was outside. Everybody's in Mac and cheese.

Yes. Really good. You rented sofas. And so we were sitting on sofas outside. And Capon was so cutely nervous for you. That's what I remember. She came over and she's like, why does she want to do this? crazy shit. Why? She was so

and so supportive and so beautiful. And that was the night that everybody figured out that this album was going to be insane. It was so good and so moving. I was really focused on the couch you guys were at. I was like, it's really important to me, you know, what you guys think. And it was really important to me and Catherine that you were there. You know, and it was, that's why, you know, that's why we sent you demos. That's why It's like, you know, you're an important part of our lives and we see you guys as, you know, kind of pivotal peers, don't we?

Yeah, absolutely. Same. Yeah. There's a lot of similarities too in our relationships. And it's weird. It switches. Yeah. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy?

Not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking, I can't keep doing it like this. You're not alone. Strawberry.me is career coaching that helps you get to the real root of your burnout, whether it's workload, boundaries, a tough manager, or feeling disconnected from the work you used to love. Our coaches help you untangle with straining you, build boundaries that actually stick, redesign your day-to-day so it energizes you, and create a plan so burnout doesn't sneak back. And with a new year starting, it's the perfect moment to rethink how you want to feel.

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So we're done with that. So forever. Yeah. Forever. We don't go backwards. We start here and this is where we start. Well, I feel like if you work really hard, you know how an argument is kind of like conflict? It's like you're working something out together.

Yeah. What's the point of it if you're not getting to a new understanding? Right? And then I want to move on from that understanding. I don't want to go backwards anymore because it's progress. Having the same fight over and over again is a struggle for one. Not coming. Have you ever heard of the book?

What is it called? It's like, how. Let your son go down? No, no. That's my lyric based on the book. But the book is called like how to. not talk about your marriage or how to not how to not talk about your fight your problems what was it i don't know but the whole the whole premise of the book is like you know instead of the

concept of like don't ever let the sun go down on your anger like you should always let the sun go down on your anger oh right right right just let something pass for a long time before you talk about it then you'll know if it's still really important or not so go to sleep people just go back to this spiritual to sweep. Well, we've talked about that before. My sister. I'm like, what is that rule? It's so stupid.

Like, keep talking about it. Because you're at your worst. Like, you're talking about something very sensitive. So you should keep talking about it when you're exhausted. Yeah, like, what's your worst self? Picture of the outcome happening in that situation. This is not going to happen. No.

We had an argument the other day. What was it? We ended up laughing at each other. We were still in the middle up and we started cracking up laughing. And I was like, well, okay, that one ended in the middle of it. I can't remember. I think I said something like, I barked at you and you barked at me.

I had said something rude you and I'm like, well, you really pissed me off. And I was probably Kim. And you were like, well, that's what you do. You do this. And I don't talk to you for two days. And I was like, well, can we just skip that? But we ended up being this like laughing thing or we were just laughing. And I was like, oh, that worked.

That's the best. Wasn't it Esther Perel who says sometimes when she's in the middle of a fight, she just lay down on the ground? Really? Because that's like injecting humor into how ridiculous something. Like you can't keep angry momentum going on when something absurd happens. Exactly. We get to that point where we keep saying the same thing. I'll say the same thing like five times.

She'll say the same thing five times. And then all of a sudden we'll go, we just need a moment. And then we take like a two minute break. We just don't say a word for like a couple minutes. And then we're like, I think we're good. Are we good? I forgot. It's like we're not coming to a resolution.

Nobody's like winning here. We're just, let's just like, move on. I think that that might be where like the 40s and 50s are at of age in terms of, because it's like the more I know is the more I realize I have to just accept you for exactly who you are and have no reason or need for you to ever change because history has it. It's just like never. I'm never changing. You're never changing until I want to change, you know, until you want to change. What do you want for your family and your relationship for this next chapter? Like, what's your dream next?

Well, for the pandemic to be over first and foremost, obviously. My dream for my family is that we just find a way to stay together. That's mine too. I was like, let her answer this, let her, don't do it, just do it. Stay together, stay together, stay together, stay together. Well done. Well done. Well done. I must have picked it up from me

No, yeah, just to manage to stay together in a sane way in the midst of all this chaos and crazy times and working really hard and just, yeah, just keeping us together. Do you mean physically? Physically. We like to experience things all together and even not the great things, you know. It's all of our traveling and our music

and, you know, our activism. We like to do it as the four of us for as long as we can because we know that soon these kids will aggregate, soon they're going to have their own, you know, things. And they might not want to come on the road. And a time is coming when, you know, they're going to say, Mom, I want to be with my friends or I want to go to this school or I want to do this thing. And since now's not that time, I just want us to stay together for as long as we can. It's so beautiful how you do that. Did you go everywhere together? We try to, yeah.

I mean, it's not great a lot of the time. You know, they get overtired. I get irritable. Brandy gets, you know, beside herself. And it's, you know, we're all in this hotel room wondering why on earth we're not in our nice cozy log cabin. But, you know, there's something beautiful in all the chaos, I think. I think so too. Yeah.

We just keep doubling down on that codependence, just double down. Yes. That's right. Just double down. I love it. I love it. I love it because what are you going to do? Go have these experiences that change you.

And then that's how, that's the growing apart, right? And then you're trying to explain it to each other. When I'm on the road, like, we get to the end of the day and we're supposed to be, you know, having healthy relationships or checking on the phone. I can't check it on the phone. You're the worst one person. I'm like in there or here and I can't do both. And I can't translate life. It's hard to translate life to someone.

So you either have to do it together. I know what you mean. And I will not call. And it's like she thinks it's a punishment. But it's like if she doesn't come with me, I will not call. It is a punishment. She becomes very discalice. And then she won't call.

She won't put up the fun. Oh, really? You're like, you did this. You did this yourself. You did this. You did this. Oh, yeah. What about, what about, what do you want for your family?

Oh, God. I mean, our family is changing so much. What's that like? Because Chase is gone now. You know, he just came back. He's not gone. He's in college. He's gone forever.

It's gone. And we just had him back for the first time. and it was really emotional for me because I think I had this fear, and I told him this halfway through, that when you raise them your way, right? Like you teach them all the things and you teach them your way of thinking and how you think about the world and like you do your best. And then you send them away. And you realize when they leave, they're going to learn about other families and how they did

it and other ideas. Oh, shit. Like they're going to start judging you for real because you can't really judge a situation until you're out of it. Yeah. So you see another situation, till you talk to other people who are no, they're not near their parents to like, oh, no, it's all good. What was your family? Like, I like my parents. And so it's scary because it's like this, it feels it's not, but it feels like a test of everything that you've done for the past. Like, send them out and see if they still like you. If they still respect you. If they want to come home. If they still. You know, and like, I can get so weird with Chase because he's the first, like, he'll, he'd come into the room and I'd like turn it from the real housewives to a documentary on.

So he would think I'm like, no, literally. I'm smart and like. Literally. Literally. Literally. She was in the bathtub in our bedroom, in our bedroom. And I was upstairs in the top floor.

And she texted me and she's like, what are you watching? And I'm like, my show. Nobody's up there. I'm by myself. She said, I would prefer it if you don't watch any killing or any kind of thing in the common areas. But you guys, the vampires, the killing, the guns. Like, it's just a lot she watches. It's called Last Kingdom.

It's what I do when I'm alone. But like, to be fair, I saw, you know, the Instagram of you in the bathtub looking like there was not an ounce of energy left in your soul. Yeah. And it's like if somebody's visiting and you, especially somebody as important as your child and you set yourself aside for long enough, you're going to think it's them you're sick of and ready for them to leave. I'm really you're just sick of not being able to be yourself. That's right. I mean, Brandy, that's the story of my life. That's right.

Wow. That's right. One time my friend said, we're going out New York to go to this meeting. And I said, I don't, it was like a fancy thing. And it was for a publisher's meeting. I said, what am I supposed to do? And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up. Anyway, the point is, he came home and he still loves us. And he just hung out and was wonderful. Glennon got an A plus on her report card. Yeah. On the mothering report card. It wasn't like a report card. It's just like an energy that. You want them to come home and feel like you're a resting place. Yeah. You know, like you're a charging station or like a safe, good place to come back to. And that's how it felt.

So I don't know. It's just, I guess with family, it's like. And we both are keenly aware of being in an environment in high school where I couldn't be my full self. So going to college was a, a, was paradise was like, I, it was like going to the place I could finally become myself. And so going home for the holidays or I never went home for for summer for break. I just stayed in college because that's where I felt like myself. And so it's just really important for us as parents that our kids can feel like their true full

self at their house. That's what I, that's what I mean. Like, I'm just like, do you feel like this is the place? where you're held and free? Yes. Or do you feel like you left and now you can be free? That's right. And so that's what you're trying to figure out.

And as a parent, you're kind of like hoping that they, because you don't know. You only hope. And then when you kind of get confirmation, oh, no, they do feel free. I did it how I wanted to do it. Because the way that might be impacted might be different. This is an elaborate way for you to tell us we have to accept the American Girl doll. But are these the kinds of things you have to think about now with kids that are this age? Because, I mean, I think about this all the time.

How do you keep them wanting to be with you? That's right. That's what it is. How? My entire life is just trying to keep them wanting to be with me. It's pathetic. You just keep telling them that they're perfect. And then whoever they show up every day is exactly who you want to be around.

That's it right? My plan is like four wheelers or zip lines. Okay. That will be probably also sprinkled within. But what if you have a poet child who doesn't want to go on it? If you said that to me, what did you just say? Say that again? Like my plan is like four-wheelers or zip lines.

Unsafe. Not safe. Well, there's always my roast potatoes. Or her roast potatoes. If I have a poet, I will say if you come around to me and mommy's house, we're going to have Glenn and a Nabi. Okay. There you go. Love them in.

Yeah. Look how smart we are. It's tricky if, and I just pose this as a question, what if Elijah or Evangeline are the kind of person that, what if they're just like Uber femme? So like what they might be then feeling in your house is the exact thing that you are feeling. Like, oh. Oh, I think so. You know? I think so.

I'm really sensitive to this. Because like what you're talking about is absolutely playing itself out all the time. There are things that, you know, that are so natural to them, this nurture nature concept is fascinating to me all the time. They have, at least at this point in their lives, embraced a gender expression that, you know, I've got to learn to navigate, and Catherine's got to learn to navigate. And both of us are just like, look at our hands. It's so hard. Look at her. Yeah.

Look at my gay hands. Yeah. Look at our gay hands. But, I mean, with the exception of the American Girl doll, I love it. Really? I love it. Yeah. And I've really taken to like, you know, ordering.

When they switched from pajamas to nightgowns, that was a big one for me. Because I little babies in their pajamas is the cutest thing you've ever seen, you know, with the footies and everything. And they're like, we want nightgowns and we want like lace on these things and frill and. And you were able to embrace it. Yeah. They looked like human. She did. Yeah.

They looked like human cupcakes. I mean, last time you guys came and Evangeline came, she had, you guys had gotten her a, like a little silver barrette that was crystals on it. Yeah. She gave that to you. She gave that to you. Well, you obviously did make it. It's upstairs. Even though you didn't make the book report.

No. She gave you her precious thing. Yeah. I'll just never forget when she told you guys were going to play that game and they had a timer on it. It's like so Evangeline. She's like, I don't get timed. Yeah. That was it. I moved that timer real fast.

And you're like, okay. Yeah. No, I... She does not get time. As if it had already been decided by a committee. Yes. I like it, though. She knows.

She knows her the stipulations. This is like revolutionary. The stuff we're talking about, it's a sense, two couples just having a conversation. But LGBTQIA domesticity, family discussions, they really are radical. The concept of it is radical. I could not have imagined it when Catherine and I got married illegally without a license all those years ago to think that, you know, not only are we all really married, but we're sitting here talking with kids as atypical parents and every, by every definition, about how to navigate these waters that we are really finally able to get a glimpse at. It's radical. It feels good and it feels like home, but also it's pretty crazy.

And I think maybe this could have something to do with like the homophobia that my mom might have struggled with during my teenage years, not knowing if I could have a life like this. If I could have what she has. Yeah. Because I couldn't then. Almost it was impossible. I want to extend a little bit of compassion. Totally. Yeah.

I feel that way now. Hopefully that sense of grief is going to become a thing of the past because I think that was my mom's default was like, am I going to have grandkids still? Yeah. But yeah, hopefully that's going to go away. Yeah. Ours are fucking rad. Yes.

One has produced a song with Brandy Carlyle. Speaking of. Speaking of. We will let you listen to that right now. Thank you for this. I have loved this so much. So fun. Every minute of it.

It was amazing. We can do hard things. Oh, guys. We had to do it on a podcast to finally have a real double date. I like that. I know, right? I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. I walk through fire.

I came out the other side. I chase desire. I made sure I got what's mine. And I continue to believe that I'm for me. Because I'm a We're adventurers And heartbreaks I'm at a final

Destin Stop asking To places they And to be late To be known We'll fight back We can do a heart A brand new star

Things fall I continue to The best people are free Sometimes I'm finally fun Because we're adventurers and heart breaks I'm at a final destination They've stopped asking directions To places they've made

To places they've never been. And to be hard. So play. Never been. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.

It's fine. You know,