We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 82. Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

1. Why Hannah describes her later-in-life Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnosis as “an exfoliation of shame.” 2. How neurodiversity affects Hannah’s relationships–and how she connects to the world through what’s “interesting” instead of what’s “important.” 3. Hannah’s revolutionary commitment to stop using self-deprecating humor about her body, sexuality, and gender–and why we might all consider the same commitment. 4. Why it’s easier for Hannah to share her personal stories “in bulk” on stage instead of one-on-one. 5. What it takes for Hannah to prepare for conversations–like ours on We Can Do Hard Things. About Hannah: Tasmania’s own Hannah Gadsby stopped stand-up comedy in its tracks with her multi-award-winning show, Nanette. When it premiered on Netflix in 2018, it left audiences captivated by her blistering honesty and her singular ability to take them from rolling laughter to devastated silence. Its release and subsequent Emmy and Peabody wins took Nanette (and Hannah) to the world. Hannah’s difficult second album (which was also her eleventh solo show) was named Douglas after her dog. Hannah walked Douglas around the world, selling out the Royal Festival Hall in London, the Opera House in Sydney and the Kennedy Center in DC, a sit-down run in New York and shows across the US, Europe, Australia and New Zealand. Douglas covered Hannah’s autism diagnosis, moving beyond the trauma at the centre of Nanette and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah’s brain – one that sees the world differently but with breathtaking clarity. The show was an Emmy-nominated smash hit and is available throughout the world on Netflix, recorded in Los Angeles.  Hannah Gadsby’s “overnight” success was more than ten years in the making, with her award-winning stand-up shows having been a fixture in festivals across Australia and the UK since 2009. She played a character called “Hannah” on the TV series Please Like Me and has hosted multiple art documentaries, inspired by her comedy art lectures. In 2022, Hannah’s first book Ten Steps to Nanette: A Memoir Situation was published by Ballantine, an imprint of Penguin Random House, in the United States, Atlantic in the UK, and Allen & Unwin in Australia. Hannah has done plenty of other things over the course of more than a decade in comedy, but that will do for now. IG: hannah_gadsby TW: HannahGadsby

And to be like to. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the incomparable, brilliant, honest, funny. Funny and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby. I have been wanting to speak to Hannah Gadsby for so long ever since I, laughed and cried and raged my way through Nanette. And then after that with Douglas.

Which are her stand-up specials. Right. Her stand-up Netflix specials. And we talk about all kinds of beautiful things today telling stories and parenting and especially neurodiversity, which I know, sister, you've been wanting to talk about on the pod for so long. I'm so thankful that she came on and shared so honestly and quite a lot. about she has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And I think it's so important to hear from women about that. Her story is fascinating. She went through really hard time. She was unhoused. She was in terrible situations, a lot of her life and was only diagnosed when she was 30, basically, I think it was a year before Nanette came out. And a lot about her story has to do with

living without this knowledge of herself, but just living in kind of an ill-fitting world. And it is a place where a lot of girls are. And it's just so important that people learn about this and the way that girls do not exhibit the same science of autism that boys do. We live by a male model of autism. So that means they're looking for the same markers. that means when they're ultimately diagnosed, they're getting the same therapies, when in fact, the girl brain with autism looks different than the boy brain with autism. It results in a lot of real damage. 42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism when they go to get checked. And boys are diagnosed two years earlier. So there's a lot of girls struggling out there

with depression and anxiety. And like Hannah, not being diagnosed until they're 30, and in her words, not haven't participated in life up to that point because they've been so sidelined by it. This conversation can help a lot of us to understand ourselves and give us insight into people we love. And importantly, it can help us reframe neurological diversity as differences, not as deficiencies. What Hannah shared about the exhaustive preparations she has to do to navigate everyday things, including this conversation today, was so important.

It reminded me of something I read that explained how we all have a social brain, a network made up of multiple regions throughout the brain that help us navigate social interactions. And there's a new line of unpublished research suggesting that in girls and women with autism, they keep their social brain engaged, but every bit of social interaction may be mediated through the prefrontal cortex, which means that whereas many of us are able to deal with social interactions instinctively, for girls and women with autism, processing every social interaction can be the equivalent of doing high-grade math. So when she talks about being exhausted, having to prepare, how depleting it is, it's because every social

Q is essentially an equation of long division, which is the labor neurodivergent folks do in masking to be in relationship and community. Masking is mimicking, trying to replicate what other people are doing, but they're not doing it by instinct. I just am really thankful that she goes into that detail for us because I think it's really important as empathy for people, understanding the people that we love. that that's the work they're doing every day, the work that we take for granted just getting a feeling. Yeah.

And it's so important when talking about neurodiversity to actually be talking to people who are neurodivergent. And with that, we're going to give you Hannah Gadsby. Hannah Gadsby stopped stand-up comedy in its tracks with her multi-award winning show, Nanette. Its release in subsequent Emmy and P-Body wins took Nanette. and Hannah to the world. Hannah's difficult second album, which was also her 11th solo show, was named Douglas after her dog.

Douglas covered Hannah's autism diagnosis moving beyond the trauma at the center of Nanette, and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah's brain, when it sees the world differently, but with breathtaking clarity. The show was an Emmy-nominated smash hit and is available throughout the world on Netflix. Hannah's award-winning shows are a fixture in festivals

across Australia and the UK, Her first book, Ten Steps to Nanette, a memoir situation, which I adored, is out now. We're talking today to someone who, I think, on my list of top five humans, guests that I was dying to have on this show, was right up there. Number eight. And that is her. Her name is Hannah Freaking Gatsby. I know. Thank you for the middle name.

I don't have one. Got one now. Okay. Hannah, your new book is so freaking wonderful. Abby knows. I picked it up and then disappeared from my family for three days because I just thought it was so wonderful I couldn't put it down. Thank you. Did I mess with your head?

Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it did. We'll get into that. For sure, it did. I love the whole journey that you take us through with your mom. I love your mom. You love your mom.

Everyone who reads your new book is going to love your mom. And when you were a kid, your mom was harassing you so relentlessly about some dirty glasses in your room that eventually you blew up, exploded, started cursing at her. And she was happy because she said, I just wanted you to feel. And then later she said, after you got your autism diagnosis, I think you were 30. Spoiler let. Right? Spoiler let. She said, I thought there was a lot going on inside you.

You were like a tin of baked beans and my tin opener wouldn't work on you. Yeah, to just give that some context. My mom is a very distinct character. And in my performance life, I impersonate her. So just to give that how it really was for me, she said this, oh yes, I always knew you. There was a lot going on inside you. You like a tin of baked beans, and my tin opener was broken. I just couldn't get in.

And I said to her, I said, Mom, you don't like baked beans. And she said, no. No, I don't. No. Yeah. Yeah. She's a very funny lady, very funny lady. But yeah, I was a bit of a bit locked up as a kid.

I didn't have great language access. So, and also, you know, the feelings thing was, you know, because I'm not typical. It's frustrating, I think, for neurotypical parents to, connect with neurodivergent children, but you get there. So what was that like as a kid growing up as you without a diagnosis? Well, it's, you know, it's difficult. I think it might be worth like just clearing up what autism is. Great.

Exactly. You know, because there's a lot of, we'll just call it, misinformation. And I think so. What it basically is, like if you want to boil it down to its bare bones minimum, is it's what animates you, what drives your central nervous system. In your typical people, it is sort of what is important. So what drive your behaviour is what is important and where you are in the social tribe. In neurodivergent people, it is what's interesting?

And that can vary. Like, there's a saying is like, you know, what's, you've met one person on the spectrum. You've met one person on the spectrum. The particular place that I am on the spectrum is I have, I have, you know, sensory processing disorder. Now, people can have sensory processing disorders and not be on the spectrum. That's an important distinction to make. But where I'm, and I do have that, I am turned all the way up to no filters. I'm very heightened.

Some of them cross over a little bit. My taste and smell are kind of sometimes indistinct. And then there are two others, vestibular and proceception. So I'm hyper aware of my space. Clutter distresses me. And I have the vestibular is, I balance issue.

So I don't know where my head is in space. So I fall over, I have a lot of accidents. I hurt myself a lot. So it's just like this invisible disability that becomes very visible because I break my leg. I'm currently got a broken leg because I fell but didn't know that I was falling until it's too late. And so I broke my leg. It's fun times, good times. Last year I had a total knee reconstruction.

Same thing. It was falling before, you know, and it was too late. Gravity was already my bitch. And so I had my knee busted. And the year before that, I busted my nose open. And then it was a broken toe. Like, I have, you know, if someone would dig me up and, you know, after I was dead, like, hundreds of years of time, they would dig me up and go, wow, I think we found a warrior

princess. You know, because my skeletal sister. is, you know, it's like got remarks of war, but really, I fell over walking. Yeah. So I'm playing a long game, really. So these are sort of, you know, not knowing these things that, you know, I have sensitivities was kind of a lot of the kid because you see people behave in a way and interact and socialize in a way and you try and do that and I would get completely overwhelmed or

disassociate because, you know, I have an oral processing disorder, so I can't, I can't tune in to noise very well and sort it out in my head. So it's very easy for me to just tune out and listen to people who are speaking English and go, wow, that's a foreign language. So I have to focus really hard, which made learning very difficult. I was very lucky my mum made all my clothes, though there is a dark side to that. Papadashry abuse is real. But so I never had like the tag issues because there was no tags on my clothes. And she always used nice fabric in the texture quality, not necessarily patterns.

No child needs to wear harlequin sweaters. And then so there was a lot about my childhood that protected me from the worst. of my ASD. I grew up in a really small town, and I was part of a large family, so I had a ready-made social network. I just fit in. But it was windy there.

I grew up on a really small island and on the northwest coast, and it's famous for its fresh air. Who knew? I did. I just told you. And so it was really windy, and so I was always confused

because wind throws sound around. And so I was perpetually confused as a child. Like, you know, I was always given names like, you know, dithery or vague or dopey and, you know, these sorts of things. And I used to confuse people because at one hand I could be incredibly intelligent and then as dumb as bricks. And the older I got, the more people would read into that, the less adorable I became and people would see it as willful or manipulative. because I could misunderstand what's going on and accidentally hurt people's feelings, but it would be an honest mistake on my behalf,

but it would be difficult for people to believe that because, you know, on the next breath, I could be incredibly intelligent. And not knowing and not being able to sort of contextualize all that confusion for me was difficult. You talk about social situations? like social, and you describe it as thinking that everyone's just saying what they mean. Fix this for me.

You think everyone's just saying what they mean and that's how you're operating, but you realize there's an undercurrent of things that people are communicating in ways that you're not picking up. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. There's no subtext for me. Like, it blows my mind when, you know, people are saying, I was just being polite.

But really, you know, the person they were being polite to leaves and they're like, hate them. I'm like, you were so nice to them. How are they supposed to know? I didn't know. That was nice to the person I'm supposed to not like. You know, and then, you know, you'd hear people deconstruct conversations. And then they said this thing and that meant this. And I'm like, did it?

I've learned so much these things. And then, you know, once a lot of them. I was diagnosed, it was like, you know what, I don't actually care. You go talk amongst yourselves. I'm going to rearrange my furniture. So was it freeing? Was it, tell me about, was it freeing? Tell me about getting diagnosed. Did it feel like something had been wrong with you that you didn't understand and now it didn't feel wrong anymore? It felt like its own thing? It felt like a, like an exfoliation of shame. Wow. Because once you understand that you have ASD, you understand that there's not a lot in your control.

Like, then it's less about being a, you're a bad person for not caring about small talk. And then you understand that it's not how you connect to other people. You know, it's not how you connect to the world. I connect through my passions and my interests. And when someone who's neurodivergent wants to connect to the world and to people, it's through those things. It's like what is interesting. And neurotypical people is like what is important.

And it's, you know, neurotypical people interact, you know, and connect face to face. You know, it's like direct. Whereas I'm into parallel play. You know, you want to get to know me. You go over there and do what you're doing. I'll be in the same room doing my thing. And haven't we had a great time?

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just one of each. And I've never actually been to Costco. That sounds like a nightmare to me. It is. Is Costco even a thing here? It's a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a really bad metaphor for me because I hate big shopping places.

Yeah, anyway. So, but we'll keep going with it. So it's sort of, I've lost myself. Hannah, my ex-husband when I was married used to sit down and say, I know, it's a whole thing. Used to sit down and say, so I heard, I read that your depression is back. I read it in a magazine. And he would try to talk to me about it. And I would say, but just read the article again.

Like, I just, I wrote about it. I did it in bulk. Yeah, I feel like I can. kind of get where he's coming from there. It's sort of like maybe he could have seen an advanced copy. Yeah. This is like, you know, maybe a heads up. Yeah. We've altered that in our marriage, right? Like, before things go to press, you know, we have the conversation. Can I help you edit your bulk declaration of situation? It is a tricky thing. Like, I think you just have to work out, like with any relationship, I guess. You have to just meet people where they're at.

When two neurodivergent people communicate, it's fluid. When two neurotypical people talk to each other, it's fluid. It's just when the two meet, it can be really, really awkward, and I've experienced that often. But the thing is, I have learnt the ways of the neurotypicals. I have studied these people. You know, like I prepare for neurotypical engagement. I know I'm trained in the art of small talk because I know it's important. The problem is, is the privilege of neurotypical people is they

don't have to learn how to parallel play with, you know, what happened is you're pathologized. It's like, you're not communicating correctly, therefore you are less than, you are not doing this right, you are weird, you know. Back in the day, they'd burn you at the stake. you know, like totally think I'm a witch. Like I think that's what witches were, just neurodivergent women. I totally float if you threw me in the river.

That blew my mind because I heard you say, ultimately what I'm in the business of is to demand people be more aware of how and why they think, not what they think. Because that's the reality of autism. You have autism. you have to think about how you think. That's what you do. And neurotypicals don't do that. They just assume the way they think is right.

I live with people who have some sprinkling. Sprinkling. It's a veritable cornucopia over here. Yes. And that, thinking, you know, turning that lens on myself and thinking,

no, this is how. how you're thinking about it. And that is why you're out of sync. Not necessarily there's something wrong or broken about the way they're thinking. And how do you think that people who want to balance that hierarchy as it's set up right now who want to connect with people of who they love, who are neurodivergent, how do we begin to understand about how we think that is building those barriers? I think a really great place to start is not to take things personally and just move past it to the next thing. It's really difficult, I think, with the parent-child relationship

because it's, you know, children don't have the language yet. They're learning the language in order to you know, then communicate what issues are, what the problem are, you know, what might look like as, you know, a tantrum is probably a sensory overload and it looks like a small problem. So, you know, a parent might go, well, you know, I'm taking you, I'm taking you seriously, but really, but, you know, come on, this is, you know, like you don't like that cup, come on, clam down. But what's happening is perhaps there's something about the sensory part of this process that seems insignificant to a neurotypical, but is, you know, a war zone for someone on the spectrum. There's an expected, you know, bond that's supposed to happen with parents and children

that neurodivert children are always going to disappoint. And I think one of the first things is like, you've got to stop taking that seriously. I mean, you've got to take it seriously, sorry. Words are my gift personally. Like try and sort of meet people where they're at. And there's always going to be a lag with children because especially if you have difficulty with language, it's going to take a while to sort of get to that place.

But in the adult world, it is difficult for women. women on the spectrum. Men get, you know, there is a certain place on the spectrum that, you know, is reserved for the great white geniuses and they're allowed to hyper-focus on their special interest and be terrible at interpersonal communications and they're held up as, you know, the best of men. But it's much more difficult for women because of the expectations in the social network that we're supposed to uphold. and when we fail, that is a failure of character.

And it's really difficult to sort of convince people that it's just like, I can't do it any differently. My brain is not wired to do what you want it to do. Now what? But we sort of get stuck on this, like you're weird, you're doing this wrong. And I camouflage and mask a lot, and that's an incredibly exhausting process. So for this podcast, I have to prepare a lot. Like I had to listen to your, not, it wasn't a chore.

Love your podcast. Well done. Keep up with good work. But it wasn't, it wasn't, it was really active engagement with it. Because in order to talk to three people at the same time, I felt, you know, like I had to make sure I understood the way that you speak, the cadence, you pitch not as a way of familiarizing myself. So when in the moment, hoping that I could hear what you're saying, process it, and then turn it around with reciprocal speech, takes a huge amount of effort for me. So what might look like, you know, it's just a casual chat is a marathon

for me. And so then that depletes your energy levels. And then once you, you know, I have meltdowns, They shut down mostly, they just stop communicating. And that's hard for people if they don't want to believe that it's not personal. It's great. It's a good life. Love it. How you just shared is such a gift. I mean, that's so important to understand that the work that you put in to showing up in a space,

I just feel like that's a gift for people to understand. that and thank you for doing that for this. No problems. Hannah, can you talk to us? The problems I outlined in, didn't I? No problems. No worries. There's a lot of worry.

But no, we're cool. Thanks. How does ASD affect relationships? Like what challenges and if there are gifts, what are those? Because you're in a relationship now. Nailing it. Nailing it? Yeah.

But before there was a disconnect of, you know, when I mask, I'm fine. Like people are like, you're normal. You're a little bit quirky, but you're normal. But you can't maintain that. That's exhausting. And so once you're spending your private time with someone, I begin to melt down. So it will be reactive. I struggle to regulate my emotions when I'm under stress.

and I have a lot of trauma, big T's and little T's. So, you know, that also affects your ability to regulate. So, you know, I can, I have been, you know, I can frighten people, you know, when I'm just trying to set devastatingly simple needs. But if those needs aren't met, then I, you know, can be snappy in a way that is not pleasant for other people. And so I was laboring under the false idea that perhaps I was borderline abusive. But what was happening was my boundaries were not being respected.

And so I'd be a snappy Tom and they're like, you know, when I'm fine, I'm very easygoing and like, okay. So it just seemed like I was Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. And one of the really interesting ones for me is touch because it's overwhelming for me. And in a lesbian relationship, that what? Who are you supposed to do that? It's all about the touch, isn't it? Oh, touchy feeling. I'm like, do I have to talk about our feelings again?

And just a light touch. Like that's a universal standard, isn't it, for like, you know, intimacy. like just a nice soft, and I flinch, you know, like, because that is a really horrible sensation for me. So, but not knowing that, people take that as rejection. Like it's like, oh, you know, you hate, you find me repulsing. Like, no, just that touch. Generally, lovely. But it's really hard to communicate that when you don't know, even when I did know I struggled for a while, because it seems simple. It doesn't seem like much. Like, you know, if people kept, not touching me with a firm touch and just a light touch,

I kept flinching, it builds up. And it just doesn't, it's a really easy fix, but the other person has to want to believe that I don't want a light touch. I don't know if I'm answering your question. You are. I have kind of a follow-up question, if you don't mind. I love follow-up questions, Abby, so thank you.

So in terms of like neurotypical neurodivergent, It would be because I think, I mean, I actually, since we had our pre-call, I'm like, I think I want to get tested because I just feel like we all are somewhere on a spectrum, right? And I think I've had learning stuff throughout my life that I want to just understand more. But I think it's the role, like what happens is is neurotypical people want to like fix this part maybe in you. So like, let's go through a problem. process, Hannah. Is this like common? Like let's go through a process and work on this touch. Like exposure therapy? Yeah. Like let's beat this out of you or pray it away. Like what? Have that, has that ever happened in your life? Oh, like, all the time. And I do it to myself before I was diagnosed too. So like, because I'm a problem. So I have a problem solvers brain. So like this is a problem. I want to fix it. And then so like I experiment with fixing it. And this is like this, you know, ends up. I've had so many major depressive episodes, it's almost funny again because it's that overwhelm of putting yourself

into these sort of situations that are overwhelming and detrimental to your central nervous system and then you just can't cope and then it's like broadcast out. And I will say this, Abby, like, you know, do, if you feel like there's something that I'm saying that is connecting to you And I've been speaking a very vague and specific terms here. And it is a very complicated thing. But do get yourself checked out because if you are, it'll be a game changer. And I will also say this. There is a very large crossover between autism and gender ambivalence.

I'm going to call it gender ambivalence. I love it. You know, because, you know, Because, you know, left to my own device is like, whatever, but people, neurotypicals demand that, like, front on, like, what are you? But inside of my, it's just like, well, it's just coming out, how it's coming out, isn't it? Like, you need to deal with your feelings on this. But there are a lot of non-binary folk, trans folk, genderqueer folk on the spectrum.

Because I think there's something about the gender binary that does not make sense. sense. If it's logical, it is what is important, not what is interesting. Interesting. Cool. Have you ever hit a point at work where everything just feels heavy? Not just a bad week, but the kind of burnout where you're staring at your laptop thinking, I can't keep doing it like this. You're not alone. Strawberry.comme is career coaching that helps you get to the real root of your burnout, whether it's workload, boundaries, a tough manager, or feeling, disconnected from the work you used to love. Our coaches help you untangle what's draining you,

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is being based and studied on, you know, young men, white men, if we want to get specific. Like the biases that exist in science everywhere in all parts of science, medicine research, you know, exist in this. So, you know, there are women of colour on the spectrum, and a lot of them are running around not knowing it, because it will be different again. Because women are expected to behave in a certain way. And as a culture, we've been trained to apologise women who don't behave in the correct way in the way that it is a character flaw.

It is, you go on to hell, you're not doing it right. You know, it is that shaming. And so if a, if you're, If a young boy doesn't interact with his peers and he wants to identify every single dinosaur, there is fine. That seems normal in a way. If a girl was to do that, often their peers will identify it as wrong before a parents will observe it. And they begin masking.

So the masking thing in girls, because you're watching your peers and you're like, they're doing these things, I should do these things. And so I think a lot of the time, not so much now, like it's opening up now, but I think women of my generation, that's what it's happening. Like you're, you're masking. And you find people in their 40s having breakdowns all the time, women on the spectrum, undiagnosed women. And it's similar to even our model of heart attacks, how women present very differently than men. And so women are dying of heart attacks because their symptoms don't match. girls typically have often a different presentation than boys. It made sense when you said the

exfolliation of shame because girls are kind of in this lost period of masking and not being identified. Then they're going through adolescence. Then they're being diagnosed with depression and anxiety as the primary reason for their struggles and owes them. that's so hormonal. And then they spend their whole lives thinking their lives aren't working out because of their depression and anxiety and not they're depressed and anxious because they've never been identified and understood for who they are. Yeah, I always was sort of like to frame it is like, I always thought that I was struggling because I was depressed and anxious. But then I realized I am depressed and anxious because I am struggling. And so I never identified.

that I was struggling. You know, that, like, I didn't understand that I wasn't looking people in the eye and, you know, because I would just watch their mouths move. Like, I wasn't, didn't understand that I couldn't hear properly. I can hear properly. My hearing, as my mum would call, 20-20. That's sight-mom. But I do.

I watch people's mouths and that helps me put together what they're saying. And so it's a lot of compensatory. techniques that I use to get through that. But also it's about how trauma presents in neurodivergent people is not the same. So getting therapy is fraught, particularly if the therapist doesn't know or you don't know. So, you know, there's like, let's talk about this thing again. Let's talk about this thing again. And that is so stressful.

Like it is so stressful to be front-facing to these things. because the central nervous system is not cut out for that sort of onslaught. So it's, things compound. And a lot of people, women on the spectrum, have complex PTSD because these small traumas are just daily. Can you talk to us about your decision to stop using self-deprecating humor about your body or about your sexuality or about your gender or any of it in comedy? Like how did that come to you and what does it mean to you? That's a long process.

When I first started doing comedy, I was quite monosyllabic and, you know, I had to learn very, you know, trained very hard to modulate my voice and things like that. But, you know, I was very deadpan and just used, worked with people's assumption on who I was and then subverted it. but that in order to subvert people's assumption, you have to play in that, on that field. You have to play that game. And even if you're trying to subvert it, you're still kicking that ball around. You're still kicking the stereotypes around.

You're still engaging with stereotypes. And as I matured as a performer, I got bored with that. That was no longer interesting, even though it was important to an audience. And I began to feel very disconnected. I, you know, about eight years into my career, I started going, this, I don't make sense on stage anymore. And part of that was early on, you know, I do stand up. And then during festivals, I'd work with like a gallery and do comedy art lectures.

Now, we worked out, I wanted to do comedy art tours, but turns out I'm not a natural leader. So I'd be going, right, we'll go and look at this painting now. And I'd go over there and I'd stand. And everyone's like, oh, we'll go over here. And like, I'm like, no one's following me. So we worked quite quickly that I have to, people have to be seated facing me, stuck. Stuck. And then they're actually quite interesting, all right.

But so I do comedy art lectures. And what I discovered there is I became what's known as a high status comic when I'm talking about my special interests. Because I'm passionate. I'm talking as, you know, with my autism first. It's like, this is what I'm interested in. And, you know, people love these. They're really popular. And I love doing them.

And I feel good on stage. And I'm like, this is me being autistic. It's me, like, being funny as a, you know, without masking. And in my comedy, though, when I'm trying to explain myself and go, you know, like, it's very hard for me to do observational humor. Because like I'm not looking at the same things everyone. So it's like, you, you know, you know what it's like. And people are like, no, what you're speaking of is not familiar.

So you have to do a lot of explaining. And then so in that, I folded in a lot of masking. And then that becomes confusing. As you get older and more mature and you like who you are, you're just like, this is a true representation of how I see the world or how I think people. You know, like I'm softening myself. I'm, you know, I'm apologizing. I'm like, hey, it's weird that I'm like this, isn't it?

And they're like, yeah, it is. And then eventually I just broke. I said, you know, once not, it's weird that you don't notice that people are different. And that very much informed, like, my desire to stop being self-deprecating because I just wanted to be autistic. I didn't want, I just wanted to go, hey, I've got some stuff to talk about and whatever feelings you have about what this is, you need to get over it because I've got things to say. And that is part of the reason. The other part of the reason is, come on. Like, why,

particularly women, why do we have to put ourselves down in order to speak in public? It hasn't changed. I still get all the hate mail that you want. Like, take a pick. Like, men have been trained not to like women who speak their mind in public. It's a thing. We're not going to change it soon. We're going to have to grin and bear it, but I may as well grin and bear it being confident. Yeah. So I just want to talk about... Bet you do. You do. I just want to talk forever, but we only have 15 minutes. So here's what I want to talk about now. Fast money round. This is what's interesting to me, is the journey that you and your mom have taken, but that in terms of the journey you've taken, you've taken,

and to figure out what comedy is to you. You had a moment with your mom where she was talking about not having regretted anything, and you said, is there anything, maybe? Yeah, well, she said this thing. She's like, I'm really proud. I like them personally, my mom. I'm really proud that I brought my kids up without religion.

I really am, because I've raised five children with minds of their own. I'm really proud of that. And I'm like, well, don't you, mum, you pat yourself on the back, good on you. And I was just sort of like, she's having a, like a moment, and I missed it because I think we've, we know why. And so I said, oh, yeah, well, what parenting decisions do you regret, Mum? And there's a laundry list, I thought you'd go. And we talk like that a little bit. Like, I'll say to Mum, I'm used to scare the be jeezeseses to say how to me when I was growing up.

She said, good, I didn't like you that much. Like, and it's, like, it's funny. Like, we're being funny. It's quite Australian, I think this horrifies some American audiences when I say that. I was like, it's fine. But she wasn't going there, so she's being thoughtful. And then she just said a thing that blew my mind. And it was the sea that became my show in the net.

Where she's like, you know, the thing I regret is that I raised you as if you were straight. And I'm like, I just, like, because when you, the coming out story is all about will people accept you? And mum just did all this work and I didn't know. She went way back and she went to a place that not many people are at now. She's like pushing 80. And she's like, oh, I shouldn't have assumed you a straight. And I wasn't your friend. And I should have been.

She said, I knew. I'm just committing to mum's voice here. She's like, I wanted you to change because I knew the world wouldn't. And she's right. The world didn't change. But she's like, and I was just sort of like, because when you, when you're coming out, it's overwhelming. Like you're just ready for the rejection.

And it is all about you. It has to be all about you. But the telling of our coming out stories, telling of a lot of trauma stories, we are freeze framing on that moment of trauma. and we don't then have a lot of public discussions about these moments because we live in a, you know, a punishment society. Like we don't give room for restorative justice, let's call it. And the art history informed that part of it for me.

So mum said this to me, but also because I was thinking a lot about proto-renasance, I made these connections. And this is the gift of autism. Like you make connections. Your brain has more connections going on. And so in art history, I don't know if you know this, but it's a myth where people sort of like, oh, back in the day, not everyone could read.

So they learned from paintings and pictures. And that is not correct. They learned through oral story telling. Stories would be told. Stories are familial. And the art played a purpose of freeze-framing, the stories into familiar. parts of the stories, points of the story.

So, so, you know, the most famous one, I guess, is Christianity has been frozen to the crucifixion. Now, there is a big story, but that is, the freeze frame is on that moment. That is a big decision.

Like, because from that freeze frame, you can leverage a lot of shame and guilt, because that's like, that's your fault. But there are, some great stories in that whole narrative, but that freeze frame. And that, you know, in mythology, it's the same thing. It's like a lot of stories are freeze framed at the moment. A woman happens to

be nude. That is a, that is a strong freeze frame there. So, so art history has this tendency to freeze frame. And we, and I think generally our story telling sort of circles trauma. And then solves it in a whodunit kind of way. And then we don't have stories that then talk about, hey, I went through trauma, but I'm all right. Like, this doesn't define me.

Fuck me up for a bit. Sorry, language. But, you know, like, older women have these stories where they can put into context, you know, context in their entire life. Like, they're not, you know, And I was just missing those stories in the public sphere. I know so many old ladies and they're just like, yeah, yeah, he's an idiot.

They're all idiots, but they're fine. And, you know, I just wanted to put that breath into my own story. It's like, you know, in my comedy, I made a lot of comedy out of the way my mom reacted. And it was a way of, like, paved the way for my own healing to be able to make fun of it. You need the jokes. But it then, you know, it stops our ability to talk about the evolution on both sides. And we're obsessed with trauma points. Like in our storytelling culture, like news is nothing but scattergun trauma porn.

Like we always know what's going wrong, but we never know how stuff resolves. and I think public, you know, displays of resolution are important and missing. It's a new year, and instead of trying to reinvent myself, I've been asking a simpler question. What would actually support me right now? And honestly, a big part of that answer is my home. I want my space to feel calmer, more functional, and a little more like a place that can reflect my goals and energy for this year, which is why I've been turning to Wayfair. It's truly a one-stop shop for everything your home needs this season.

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That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Can I read you one quote from your book that you said about your family? that I think is so important. It'd be weird if I said no. Yeah, it would be weird, but I would honor you. We would respect it.

Yeah, he's very fond. Pass. This is about your mom having a very hard time with you coming out at first. But you said our family unit had been collateral damage, nothing more than pawn porn for the juvenile and toxic political games being played out well above our heads. That is the shit that ruined my life. Yeah, and that's happening now. Right. Right now, particularly trans kids now, because we're not talking about their humanity.

We're talking about whether or not their gender is wrong. Like, we're talking about whether we can solve gender right now. And that's, it's a political point. I see it's doing my head in. Like, it's breaking my heart. It is excruciating to watch. We as adults are making the same mistakes. The way we speak about these subjects are in terms of like, I am right.

you're wrong? It's just like, can we just agree that we don't know what the hell we are? And just give people what they need and not pathologized, but this is like it is happening now as we speak. The trans kids are being politicized. That is exactly what happened to me. Some families are reacting badly to their humanity. And I think your point is so important that Those families, those parents are pawns. Yeah. They have been duped. They have been tricked.

They have been preached to by higher powers that have taught them to fear their children. Yeah. Yeah. So how is it going with your mom now? How does she feel about your new book? Did she read it? No. It's all lies.

I'm not going to read it. Like she's a bit scared. And fair enough. Like, you know, fair enough. It's her story too, and I've got complete control over it. So she's good. She's great. She's both my parents are good.

I don't know. Like, Dad was really sick when I was going through the net of it all. And one of my last edits of the book, I think I forgot to tell people that he's fine. Because it's like his dying of melanoma and he got some experimental treatment. And it turns out it was a good experience. Berman. I mean, who knows? I don't even know what it was. Could be warm that blood. We don't know, but he's fine now. But it was like my, my mum and my dad are chalk and cheese and the thing to say that explicitly in the book. And he's just so accepting. He's like, oh, yeah, good one. But mom,

like, has a reaction. Then she goes away and then she has to think about it. And then she has another reaction and then she has to think about it. So that's what's happening now. She's having to think about it, having reactions, having thoughts. That's why we love her. Do you feel she called it, well, you called it in the book. And by the way, you did say your dad was okay. There was one little part. I searched for it. They're like, we need to know. Oh. There is no resolution there. I'm like, oh yeah, but he's fine. They are a fact. It was a very small sentence just so you know. Yeah, I didn't. But it was there. It wasn't important.

Or interesting? I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't interesting. Your mom, you called it pinning butterflies. Yeah. The freeze frames of people's relationships or lives. Do you feel scared of that? Now that you have that understanding that telling stories about other people is kind of pinning butterflies,

I'm just wondering if you feel scared about your work going forward because I do. I feel scared about telling stories about people suddenly. Look, I think it's important to just tell stories. I think it's important to leave flexibility in the weave. The problem comes when people hold you to things and go, you're not allowed to evolve. That is the receiving of the story. But I think there's an enormous amount of healing that goes into the craft of a narrative.

And that's what I do. I spend a lot of time working out how to tell stories. And through that, I learn what part of the story is important to me. And, you know, working on stage a lot, my stories evolve sometimes to their detriment. So, you know, my coming out story, for instance, was designed to make people laugh. And that's where the issue was because the punchline was enough. But I think telling stories, I'm not frightened. I operate on the premise that it's okay to recede into the background and no one remembers who

the hell I am. And I just work on the craft and then everything else will work itself out. And with that, Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all of the work that you did. No problem. I would just like to acknowledge that I don't think I answered. many questions directly. But I said a lot of information after you stop talking. And interesting information and important information.

Time will tell. We won't listen to time regardless. But please also thank Jenny. And just again, thank you, Hannah. Absolute pleasure. Keep it real, guys. Keep on trucking. You're the best. Thank you. Thank you. See yeah. Thank you. Okay, what I want to say for our next straight thing today, it's not really a thing. This is a next straight idea. Okay. I, one of the things that I connect so much with Hannah on is that her major sensitivity and her, she has incredible soundries. Sounds are important to her. She has offered me strategies about how when Abby sneezes loudly, I can be start.

Because there's no way I cannot be startled. I will always be startled. Yeah. But Hannah described for me a way that I can decide in my own self what's next after the startle. I don't have to become furious after the startle. I didn't know that. Sister, I didn't know that.

Like she told me that when Abby sneezes, okay, so let's play this out. Okay. Here I go. Okay, sneeze. Hachoo. Okay. Well, that's not how it sounds. So not the way it sounds.

That's a false representation of the Abby sneeze. Right. It's an Olympic gold medal sneeze. I'm just being polite here. It is. It's like an alarm has gone off in our home. So let's say I'm doing the dishes or something. And that sneeze happens out of the blue.

And I immediately, my entire body reacts. My body freaks out. You go into freeze. I am startled. You go in a freeze. You freeze. Hannah taught me after that I can just. go with it. I'm startled. Ooh!

Oh, I'm startled. Oh! Like, there's an energy of startled can just go to like, I'm on a roller coaster. Like, I don't have to then become utterly furious that this thing has startled me. So I... Yes. It's a transmutation of the energy. That's right. It's like I can't control... I can't control my startles. but I can control what happens after the startle.

And that comes with time. So I'm going to work on it. Okay. I have no idea why I started to tell that story. But here's the next straight idea. Okay. This is just one quote from Nanette, which daily, I think about it. Okay.

And I just feel like it's very important for all of our pod squatters, many of whom are sensitive human beings, like all of them. are here. Okay? Listen. Hannah Gadsby says, when people say I'm too sensitive, I feel a bit like a nose being lectured by a fart. That's, we're just going to leave that with you. Okay. Do not let farts tell you that you are too sensitive. Wow. Okay. I'm so impressed that you just said fart twice. I know. I said it. I don't say fart. I don't say fart. But I'm saying fart, fart, fart because it's so important to the message. Yeah. Okay. I have another thing that I had a moment when she was speaking. And when she was talking about how her mom said, I'm so sorry that I raised you straight. And I think that that's something that we can think about. and be like, oh, that's right. But then she talks about how when she was growing up, right, you know, she'd be playing by

herself. She'd say, I don't want to go to that birthday party. I don't want to. And as a parent, it's it, but you're sad. You're sad if you don't go to the birthday party. And she's like, I'm not sad. And I think sometimes I, although I would never raise my kid with the assumption that they're straight and look them that way, I think that I can very easily raise my kids with the assumption that they're

neurotypical. Oh. So if I see a group of kids playing and my daughter playing separately on her own, I feel intense pain. And I project on her loneliness and sadness and separate. But that's raising her like a straight kid. That's raising her like a neurotypical kid. I just really got that from today's podcast.

I want to let my kid be exactly who they are without projecting what the world will see them as. I just want to see them through their own eyes and their own experiences. Amen. That's the next straight thing. It's like what Hannah's mom said, I wish I had been your friend. Yeah. Meaning like I wish I hadn't been a fixer of you. I wish I had just been a friend to you.

So beautiful, y'all. All right. And the thing that she, her mom said, I thought the world wasn't going to change. So I thought I would have to change you. It's like we get so scared for our children. And we bring to them the very fear that we're afraid that, the world will bring to them. We bring it to them. Sister, thank you for that.

So good. We'll see you next week on We Can Do Hard Things. Love you guys. Love you. I give you Tishmilton and Brandy Carlisle. I came out the other side. I chased desire. I made sure I got what's mine. I continue to believe that as I'm

Because we're adventurers and heart breaks on map A final destination They've stopped asking directions To places they've made to be like We can do a heart A brand new star Sometimes things fall apart I continue to believe

People are free Took some time But I'm finally fine Because we're adventurers And heartbreaks On that final destination We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been and to be hard so place never been do hard things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 studios be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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