We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - 88. Brené Brown & Barrett Guillen Sisters Double Date!!

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

1. Brené and Barrett share their parenting strategy that Brené calls “the opposite of raising a child that’s full of shame.” 2. The family of origin roles that Brené (the Protector) and Barrett (the Peacekeeper) had to adjust in order to work together–and the two keys to working well with family.   3. The ways in which a child who grows up living on eggshells becomes an adult who is fearful–and how that fear shows up differently for Brené, Barrett, Glennon, and Amanda.    4. The hilarious moment when each sister confesses a secret that they fear the other believes about them–and we find out whether or not it’s true.  5. How Brené and Barrett are walking through the grief of their mother’s sudden decline, and how they circle back when the stress of that grief makes them shitty to each other.   About Brené:  Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at The Graduate College of Social Work.She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, is the author of six #1 New York Times bestsellers, and is the host of the weekly podcasts Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead.  Brené’s books have been translated into more than 30 languages and titles include: Dare to Lead, Braving the Wilderness, Rising Strong, Daring Greatly, and The Gifts of Imperfection. Most recently Brené collaborated with Tarana Burke to co-edit You Are Your Best Thing: Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black Experience.  In her latest #1 New York Times bestseller, ATLAS OF THE HEART, which has been adapted for television and now streaming on HBO Max, she takes us on a journey through eighty-seven of the emotions and experiences that define what it means to be human.  Brené lives in Houston, Texas, with her husband, Steve. They have two children, Ellen and Charlie. TW: @BreneBrown IG: @BreneBrown About Barrett:  Barrett Guillen is Chief of Staff for Brené Brown Education and Research Group. With her team, Barrett supports both Brené and the organization by helping to prioritize competing demands, managing relationships, and building connective tissue and strategy across all business initiatives. Barrett holds bachelor’s and master’s degrees in Kinesiology from the University of Houston. After more than a decade in education in the Texas Panhandle, Barrett and her family moved back to the Houston area to join Brene’s team in making the world a braver place. Having the opportunity to work with her sisters every day has been one of the great joys of her life. Outside the office, you can find Barrett spending time with her family (immediate and extended), enjoying her daughter’s games, eating her husband’s famous burgers, floating in the water (any water!), or on the pickle ball court. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today is a double date, but not the sort of double date we've done before on We Can Do Hard Things because we at this pod like to celebrate all kinds of love, not just romantic love. So today we are celebrating a special kind of love that is, has always been the steadiest love and most important love of my life, which is sister love. life, which is sister love. And this double date is with two of our favorite sisters in the world, Brene and her sissy, Barrett. Dr. Brene Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, is the author of six number one New York Times bestsellers,

and is the host of the weekly podcasts, Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. Brene's books have been translated into more than 30 languages, and the titles include Dare to Lead, Braving the Wilderness, Rising Strong, Daring Greatly, and The Gifts of Imperfection. Brene recently collaborated with The Tarana Burke to co-edit You Are Your Best Thing, Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and The Black Experience. In her latest number one New York Times bestseller, Atlas of the Heart, which has been adapted for television and is now streaming on HBO Max, Brene takes us on a journey through 87 of the emotions and experiences that define what it means to be human. Brene lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Steve.

They have two children, Ellen and Charlie. And Barrett Guillen is the chief of staff for Brene Brown Education and Research Group. With her team, Barrett supports both Brene and the organization by helping to prioritize competing demands, managing relationships, and building connective tissues and strategy across business initiatives.

Barrett holds bachelor's and master's degrees in kinesiology from the University of Houston. After more than a decade in education in the Texas panhandle, Barrett and her family moved back to the Houston area to join Brene's team in making the world a braver place. Having the opportunity to work with her sisters every day has been one of the great joys of her life. Outside the office, you can find Barrett spending time with her family, enjoying her daughter's games, eating her husband's famous burgers, floating in the water, or on the pickleball court.

Welcome, sisters. Okay. Brene and Barrett, the sisters. This is our first sisters double date. We're delighted. Thank you both for joining us on We Can Do Hard Things. There are so many parallels between our sister stories. It just freaks us out. Actually, right now, PodSquad, you can't tell, but we all kind of look alike also. It's very weird. So Barrett, about a decade ago,

you came to work with Brene during a transition time. So you had just had your baby, Gabby. You weren't sure you wanted to go back to teaching. Brene's career was growing and she needed help. So sister, my sister, Amanda, came to work with me about a decade ago. She had just had her first baby. She wasn't sure she wanted to go back to her law firm. My work was growing and I needed help. So first of all, weird. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. And second of all, how do four people who are as wise as we are end up intentionally deciding to work with family? What are the risks? You know what it is this is my theory there's a lot of good stuff that comes from it but maybe it's one of the gifts of doing all that shitty work you have to do there's no way right none i mean how often are we the topic of each other like therapy sessions often yeah like so. Like, so I think, yeah, maybe it works because

of the work. If you stay aware and you have great communication skills and love and respect, being able to work with Ashley and Barrett, because we have, Barrett has an identical twin sister who also works here, but we don't work together every day. She's a therapist and leads another part of the company. But it's probably one of the greatest gifts of my life to be able to work together every day with people I love in my family. Having said that, how many companies do we go into where it's a total clusterfuck? Yeah, a lot of companies. I spend 90% of my time in organizations doing leadership work. That's my primary thing right now. And in family owned and run businesses, it's very rare, very rare to see it working well. It's the biggest impediment to whatever metric they're setting

for success. Is it because they come in with all their childhood wounds and roles, and then because they haven't done the work to free themselves of those things, they're enacting it in the daily? Yes. I mean, I think that's number one. And with a close second is, I think you have to have both of these things. And I think sometimes people think number two falls out of number one. They're certainly related. But number two is a separate skill set. One, there are tons of self-awareness about family roles, dynamics, history, who they are, how they survived in childhood, and how that is good and not good in adult relationships.

But then I think the second thing is really tremendous communication skills. You can't have the second without the first, but you could do the first and not have the second. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what, go ahead, Sissy. I think that's so interesting because we talk a lot about how the family of origin is so hard because you can be 43, but when you're with family, you immediately revert back to your immutable 12-year-old role. What roles did each of you have to get over or let go to be able to work together so closely in your business? It's like our life's work, Amanda. That's our life's work. That's our life's work. Yeah. And first of all, when she said, go ahead, Sissy, I'm like, no, I just went. Call her that too. Because that's my nickname in my family is Sissy. And so like my dad, do you think he knows my name's Brene? I think he probably does. Hey,

sis. If he's mad, hey, sis. And if not, hey, Sissy. I'm the oldest of four. So I mean, that says it all kind of. Massive co-parent in the absence of some parenting, probably. I think I was the peacekeeper. I think I still have peacekeeping in me, making sure everybody else is okay and taken care of and cared for. Yeah. And I'm just like, I take care of everything, boss everybody, be resentful. take care of everything, boss everybody, be resentful. Yeah. I think I wrote an Atlas of the Heart. When things were bad, I was definitely the protector. When things were between my parents, I mean, like physically, everybody in my room, like, let's go. And then when things were good, I was the protector in waiting because it would only take a second for things to switch.

And so when I was the protector, and this is still stuff I have to work on all the time. So when I was the protector in waiting, I was not fun because I was waiting for the wrong comment, the sideways glance that would set one of my parents on fire. And so when I was in protector and waiting mode and everything was fun, I was on the outside and did not belong at all within my family because I couldn't switch that quick. So I had to stay very serious. And so I can still really grapple with belonging issues with my family. I don't belong. I caretake and I protect, but when things are fun, I'm waiting. Wow.

Sister, that's you. That's you, sister. Sister is the Jack Nicholson of our family. We're like, relax. Have a joy. Have joy. And she's like, you need me on this wall. Does the protector and protector and waiting resonate for you it does and I think it's also

it dovetails with that but I think the identity that I am constantly my life work trying to shed is like the identity of a long-suffering perseverator, trying to adopt the belief that things can come easy to me and that I would still have the same value if they did. Sabrina is sneaking out off screen. Whoa, say that again? That's uncomfortable. I'm trying to let go of the identity of the long suffering, um, perseverator. And I'm trying to embrace the belief that things could come easy to me

and I would still have the same value. I don't know what you're talking about. Sounds hard. Sounds like a bad deal that you got there, Sissy. Oh my God. Yeah, I have that. Are y'all Enneagram people? Of course. Yeah, I'm a four.

Oh. You're a one, Brene, right? And you're a six, Barrett? Is that right? I'm a three. Gladden's a four. And so what is the age difference? We are three years apart, but here's the difference. I fell, jumped, whatever it was, into addiction very early at 10.

So while I'm the oldest sister, my younger sister, Amanda, stepped into protector very early because I was out to lunch, literally, and then throwing up. I had bulimia and then alcoholism, all the things. So she really stepped into peacemaker, protector on the wall. And then the second I got sober, when I actually could start taking care of myself, she came on to work with me and be my on the wall Jack Nicholson of the world. So we chose jobs that reinforced our childhood roles in some ways. Okay. I could never make the ages work because I would have bet everything that you were the older sister, Amanda. Yeah. Yeah.

Isn't that interesting? I wonder, does it happen with families with addiction in it or mental health? Yes, 100%. It does all the time. Yeah. And I think it dovetails too with the kind of, again, I think my value is in my performance because I kind of saw that as I was like a kitten bringing little gifts to the door. It was worrisome and troubling what Glennon was going through.

So I'm like, look at my A, look at my prize. You know, like every, if, if, if I bring this, it'll all have the equilibrium. Right. And so I continued to kind of see that as my value add that I would bring those things and that that's where it came from. So, yeah. The course of true love doesn't always run smooth. She got really, like, upset, and then I got super upset, and we were, like, screaming at each other. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, and in a special Valentine's Day season of my podcast, The Happiness Lab, we'll explore the science of making our intimate relationships more harmonious. This is like the worst possible way to spend a relaxing vacation. Journalist Charles Duhigg will help us

all become super communicators. Everyone knows that experience, right? When you've had a great conversation and you just feel like you're on cloud nine afterwards. And we'll hear from husband and wife relationship experts, the Gottmans. I turned the phone off. You didn't turn it off. On why we should argue better. I did, yeah. Uh-uh. Listen to The Happiness Lab wherever you get your podcasts. Barrett, what about your peacekeeping stuff? Does that bring up challenges with work? Because are you hesitant to bring up problems or issues? I'm not that Brene would ever cause you any issues, but is it hard for you in conflict to say what you need?

I don't think it's hard for me to say what I need with Brene. I think it does show up for me in terms of trying to make sure everybody has what they need and protect her at the same time. I think for me, the hardest problems that we've had at work have come from me trying to protect her from the pecking to death of what everyone needs. And not only in our organization, but everybody. protect her and trying to make decisions that are not mine to make, but are hers to make and making sure that I just have all the right information so that she can make the decision. But I have found myself a few times just not letting the information get to her at all. And it's caused some real hard times. I don't know how she does it actually. real hard times.

I don't know how she does it, actually. Like, I don't really know how she does it. I'm so intense. And I'm under a lot of pressure all the time. And I don't know how you do it, actually. I'm really grateful. Me too. But I don't know how she does it.

Because it's, yeah, like yesterday, we were all at the lake and we were packing up and I had been there for like nine days for spring break and I said I'm not fucking going back to work tomorrow and she goes your choice strong choice but your choice just let me know so I can cancel all your stuff but I mean I knew in the back of my mind she was going to be here but but she but she would never say like maybe early on she would say, look, you know, you got a lot of stuff on your schedule tomorrow and blah, blah, blah. She would not react to that anymore. Yeah. She'd be like, all right. Or like, I'll be backstage.

I'm not going on. I had a headache. I don't feel good. I'm scared. I just want to go home. And now I'm just like, okay, I've got our purses. We can go. Yeah. And then it's so terrible because it, I've got our purses. We can go. Yeah.

And then it's so terrible because it's like a tricky parenting move. It is. It is. It's been done to me so many times. No, no way. Oh my God. No, y'all do that too?

Look at Amanda's going, oh, this is like, this is old news for us. I called my sister one time from the airport. Now, this is on the way to fly to the librarians convention where I met Abby, but I called her from the gate. It was the beginning of the love warrior tour. And I said, I'm not going, I'm done. I hate this job. I say I'm quitting once a month. Everything's too hard. Everything's too hard. It's all, what are we doing?

The amount of pressure, like the amount, it's ridiculous. I don't know. I told you. I told you it was hard. I believe y'all. I mean, I don't think Amanda and I for one second would question the pressure or how hard it is or that you want to quit. No, the only person I'd rather not be than myself is my sister. That's the only thing.

That's what I told her. I said the only job that's harder than mine is yours. Exactly. So there's nowhere to go from here. I called and said, I'm done. I'm not doing this tour. I'm not doing this life. I'm not doing this job.

Will it be a big deal if I don't go? Okay. And she said, oh, you could not go. You can, of course you can not go. It will be a big deal, but I will deal with the deal and you can not go. And then I just went because I felt like that was a parenting move. Like, I don't know. I went and God dang, I love those librarians. Yeah. And I met Abby. So what if I had not gone?

Oh my God. So I have retroactive stress about that. Okay. Speaking of stress, sister, ask about eggshells. Okay. This is a selfish move because it just personally was so huge to me. move because it just personally was so huge to me. But you talk about how growing up it was a loving home and a volatile home. And I heard you essentially say that a child who lives on eggshells becomes an adult who is fearful. And that shook me because I never saw myself as a fearful person.

And I've worked hard to not show my fear with outbursts and the kind of things that clearly require people to live on eggshells. But I am afraid. I'm afraid to ease up. I'm afraid of mediocrity and of dependency. I'm afraid that my inability to let go is suffocating myself and everyone around me. I'm afraid that not being okay is just the price I have to pay to make everything okay. And that fear permeates everywhere in my life. And I just wondered how that fear shows up in both of your lives in terms of what that looks like. Because fear can look like a lot of different things, right?

Yeah. God, let me just pause on the eloquence of that question and that thought. I mean, God, that was so powerfully put. That was so beautiful. There's just healing in the way you pulled all that together and wove it together. I can't even answer. I can cry. For me, I think how it shows up as I'm a number six on the Enneagram. I worry about everything. I and I try very, very hard every single day to not pass that down to Gabby. So I name it. I mean, like the best thing I can do for Gabby is just name it. And I'll be like, I'm going to crazy town right now. So I just want to let you know that that's where I'm going.

And I'm going to talk through that with dad and then I'll be back and I'll talk to you about it in a minute so I just try really hard to name it but for me constantly I'm like worst scenario all the time and one time my therapist was like you know when you go through all those scenarios in your head it's why you're so exhausted because your body experiences those. Yes. So I was like, you don't know me. That's my thing. But yeah, so I just really try.

I know that's where I'm going to go first and I just really have to pay attention to it. God, something that does serve you in childhood though, that doesn't serve you anymore in adulthood. When you're a kid living in a volatile environment, going through the scenarios is a form of self-care. It's a form of planning. And then you're an adult and you have to unlearn a survival mechanism that worked for you in childhood. It's hard to deprogram yourself. It is. And I'll tell you that as a social worker, one of the things I really appreciate about social work

that's different from the allied professions like psychiatry, psychology, even counseling, is this kind of person and environment perspective. And I'm not intellectualizing now, so I don't have to talk about my stuff. I'll go to that next. But I will say one of the things that's interesting, because you mentioned it, Glennon, is that we really, as social workers, get very concerned about pathologizing and mental health diagnoses. shows up as a diagnosable issue is an incredibly smart survival strategy when it comes to trauma or abuse or volatility or poverty or dehumanization, white supremacy. I mean,

these are how you stay alive. And so then to turn them into, especially for women, pathologies. And it's interesting. There's interesting research being done, even looking at borderline personality, what people would call borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, narcissistic personality disorder. How if you pull back and look at the behaviors, how for many people, those behaviors were survival, even down to like the idea of splitting. Like I'm being parented by Glennon and Abby and I split as much as I can and say, well, she said it was okay if you, you know, I'm kind of manipulative that way because I'm trying to get something I need and know how to do that in a way that's becomes immediately pathologized when you observe it in an adult. For me,

there was a real physical protection issue for us growing up. That's real. And what you said was so hard for me to hear, Amanda, was like kind of squeezing the life out of things with control. kind of squeezing the life out of things with control. And always, I mean, I write about it a lot in Atlas, always trying to predict, okay, I see this behavior. I heard this comment. I've got 10 minutes to get both the girls here, find Jason. These were the things I did. And so when that's imprinted, I think, on our hearts and our minds with a seal of trauma, it's hard to be like, they just want me here for my carefree attitude, my fun-loving personality, and my warm-heartedness. It's not even about a question of, do I have value outside of that role? For me, that's like the second question. The first question is, is everything going to be okay if I get off the wall?

Yes. Yes. Because you feel, because when you actually get good results, good results, except for your life and your brain and your heart. Yeah, right. But like good safety. Because it's dead inside. But the results out there keep being successful and you have worried and stressed and controlled your way to that result. It is easy

to think, well, if I let go, I will stop earning good results with my sweat and anxiety and intensity. It feels like, it feels like, oh, that's a sweet idea for you, but you don't know what it takes. Exactly. It's like everyone else looks around and says, look how great it is. You can let go. And you're saying it's only this great because I will never, ever let go. I'm very curious about how, I haven't read the research. I probably need to look into it, but we should try to find somebody to talk about this, but I don't know how you get over a childhood and a lifetime of hypervigilance. Mm-hmm. Like I could do it when I was drinking. Yeah. You know, or eating or yeah, I could do it there. But hypervigilance is a very difficult thing to let go of. And it's why I think a lot of people are like, you want me to be vulnerable? Like I'm sending a black child out every day into the world. You know, vulnerability is a privilege of white folks, you know, but then at

the same time, it's a very difficult thing because it's not like other, it's not like some people need vulnerability to access joy and love and belonging and some don't. It's that we need to figure out how to fight for a world where vulnerability is not a privilege and where hypervigilance is not rewarded or necessary. You know, that's hard. How do you two, because we grew up a certain way, some of us pendulum parents, so we go the absolute opposite of what our parents did, which is actually not creative either. It's just a reaction. How do you feel like you're screwing your kids up in ways that you didn't predict you would? That idea that adulthood or parenthood is looking both ways before you cross the street and then getting hit by an airplane? It's like, is there anything unexpected that came that you weren't seeing? Cause I imagine you, you intentionally tried to parent differently than you were parented. So as not to create the same issues, are there anything that turned out

to be airplanes hitting you after you looked both ways? I think we both, we are both, it can be both at the exact same time, keenly aware, especially as athletes, keenly aware of how fucked up the parenting was around that. And then- Be that. Be that. Be that. But we don't act on it. But when you're on the sideline, like, I, I mean, like, I'll never forget the first time I took dad to one of Ellen's field hockey games. And I, I mean, purposely did not tag because I have so much like, this is like, yeah, yeah. Hard.

Like he's hard. Like call the constable, the swim meet kind of hard. Like, um, don't give him the starter's gun, like just hard, you know? And so she's in the middle of this field hockey game and he gets up and starts walking the fence line behind all the folding chairs. And I walk over and I'm like, I'm not putting up with this shit. This is it. This is, I'm making a stand for everyone this has ever happened to in all of the world. And I'm like, dad, what's going on? He goes, one, this game looks violent to me. Two, y'all are putting way too much pressure

on these kids. This is ridiculous. This is high school sports. You need to take a deep breath. And I was like, no, sir. I couldn't even function. And I'll tell you who is the athlete in the family that really made it through was Steve, my husband. He's like this empathy leading pediatrician. And so when we would have the troubles that like, you know, I want to be out. I don't want to play. This is too hard. Steve would be like, that's great. That's okay. We're just here to, you know, I want to be out. I don't want to play. This is too hard. Steve would be like, that's great. That's okay. We're just here to, you know, this is just fun. And I'd be like, what the fuck?

I would have to just take deep breaths. And he was like, that was great. And then ended up raising like athletes because they loved it. We, on the other hand, are saving for therapy. Right. Because we have not caught in there yet. No. But we're really trying.

Yeah, we played Devil's Pickleball this weekend and it was... I threw a tantrum. It's hard to play against your partners on that court. We played Frankie and Steve. I told Brittany, I was like, play the ball, not your husband. Play the ball, not your husband. Yeah. And she... Oh, not your husband. Play the ball. Not your husband. Yeah. And she, like, I was.

Oh, me too. I was like, did you fucking turn around sideways and spin and hit it backwards? No, sir. I think this. I am pleased with my parenting because both of my kids are hardcore believers in therapy. I feel like my work is done. That's right. If they just believe in the therapy, they can do.

Yeah. I love that you name it. I love that because it's so freeing to me. We don't have to get it all right. But when we know we're getting it wrong, we can just tell them how I'm acting is not normal. Like I am not, I'm doing my best with eating, with body stuff, with whatever. And still, I know I'm modeling a million different things, but my kids know when I'm doing it, that's mom's stuff. She's working on it. So they're not thinking that's normal. That's it. Yeah. That's it. And I'll tell you one thing we are, that I think we are so good at this generation. Wow, we are normalizers. So we came from a family where no one talked about bodies, bathroom stuff, sex, feelings. And we are normalizing maniacs.

Like, what aren't you saying? Is there a smell that you're worried about? Let's talk about it because that's so normal. That's everybody. Are you sure? A hundred percent. Yeah. That's so normal. Yeah. I mean, like we are normalizers and I started probably as like with them. Oh yeah. We, and we've gotten to watch you raise your kids. And so it was like, we've just taken a lot of notes along the way. Or I have. Ashley's daughter's older. She's in between years, but mine's the youngest out of the girls. So it's been really great to watch what you and Steve do and be able to take it and run with it. I think people do not understand that the opposite of raising a child that's full of shame is normalizing, normalizing.

a child that's full of shame is normalizing, normalizing. I mean, normalizing things like hard things. Sometimes when I spend time with your grandmother, I feel so grateful to be able to take care of her. And sometimes I wish she would go ahead and die because I can't take it another minute. And just one day know that if you're ever in a caregiving situation, that swing between it's my honor and holy shit, I cannot do this another day is super normal. You just have to talk about it with somebody. God, I love that. Like just normalizing, normalizing. Normalizing is fighting future shame. It is. As much as you could ever protect against shame. Normalizing is doing that. How is it with you two? Because you're part very much in the middle of this sandwich time,

right? Where you're doing your best to raise your kids. You're trying to have some sort of life on your own and marriage and all the things. And then you're also dealing with parents who are aging. And how is that on your sisterhood? Because how are you doing this? You're working together at unbelievably high levels of stress. You're playing freaking pickleball on the weekend. So you're choosing to hang out more on the weekends. Sounds like.

Yes. You're also caretaking as a team do you caretake for your parents the same way that you work do you have interesting the same roles we do it did I mean like we you know it's interesting when we had to clean out my mom's house we all had very different ways of grieving that and wanting to go through things. And that was probably actually the hardest thing that we've had to go up against since our parents have kind of gotten older. We've done a great job and we have amazing tools and language to talk about it and put it on the table and not ignore it. and put it on the table and not ignore it.

And if we do try to ignore it between the three of us, us and Ashley, someone will put it forcibly on the table in front of us. Yeah, there will be no escaping the table when something like that happens. And so that was probably one of the hardest. She went into the hospital with like a minor thing and never went home again. And so her house was just like breakfast dishes

in the sink kind of thing. Six months before that, she was the controller for our company, like a big accounting career, but a combination of a physical illness, rapid onset, cognitive stuff. It was probably one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. Yeah. Yeah. And so her house is just there, full of everything. And our house has always been, since my parents' divorce, a very sacred place for not only us, but our kids. Even if we didn't live there. It was our home.

It was our home. And it was the only one that we ever had because we never felt connected to our homes growing up because they were just not, they were hard. And so I was like, we got to get this shit packed. We got to pay somebody, do it. We got to move out and put this house on the market right now. And then they were like, well, you know, let's do this. And no, she's never going to do that. No, this is never going to happen. Like I was like pushing, pushing, do it, do it. And, and they were like dragging their feet. And I was like, what is going on

they're just like back off and then finally I go over there one day without them and just lay on the floor and cry for four hours and Steve literally has to pick me up and put me back in the truck and drive me home we all had to to have that moment. I think I had it in the closet. Ashley had it in there. Like, I think it was just like, once we had that moment and we were like, so this is grief. This isn't about packing the house. This is about, you know, I'm not going to see her every day. Like I did before. She's not going to pick Gabby up from school. She's not no longer my emergency contact, you know, like all those things you don't think about. And so I think once we were like, this is this is really sad. This is hard. This is grief. We've been shitty to each

other. All right. What what do we all need to get this shit packed up? But what do we need before we get it packed up? I think Ashley for a while wanted to touch everything and kind of go through, oh, I love this spatula. I really like it. You know, it was like, and then, and then we both had the same. Well, did you ever have the same? I was like, oh, Gabby loved this fork that you expand and you poke people like.

Did you have that? I don't think so. I was running from pain by doing. That's my forte. That would be my do. I just run from feeling by doing. It was once we named it that we were in grief. And then even to the point where I was like, we just have to do what we can. And Ashley's like, I want everything in this pile in storage. I was like, for what? And then she's like, it doesn't matter. That's good. And I was like, she's a therapist.

And I was like. So we stored that shit. We stored that shit right away. Yeah. And we give each other permission. Like, you know, my phone will blow up one day and I'll be like, not me today. Yeah. I thank God for the circle back.

Like, thank God for, I mean, I was such an asshole yesterday, but it's because all the insurance stuff came in and I was really resentful that I'm in charge of her insurance. The circle back is so beautiful because it just gives us permission to go back and say, dang, that's not what I wanted to say. And that's not who I wanted to be. Yeah. Yeah. The circle back and that it doesn't matter.

God, I love that. When you're close with someone, giving yourself permission to not explain and just say, it doesn't matter. Put it in storage. That's good. What are you all afraid? Okay. If this doesn't make sense to you, just tell me. But what I, sister and I, I feel like each have beliefs that we're afraid the other one thinks about us. Okay. So I'm- We've never told each other what they are though. I'm interested.

Well, I mean- Wait, y'all haven't? Y'all have not shared them? No. But I mean, I think my all the time underlying shame belief is I'm crazy. That's what I grew up with since I was 10 years old. I was in all the offices, on all the medicines forever, on the, you know, so I'm always trying to convince people that I'm not crazy. Like I might be someone who would have a whole book that over and over again says, I am not crazy. I am a goddamn cheetah over and over again, right?

I might just say that repeatedly when meeting people. I am not crazy. It's like a thou doth protest too much a little bit. It's interesting because I was thinking about this this morning, sister, thinking my, one of my shame beliefs is that beliefs is that my sister will think I'm flighty and I'm not consistent and I don't work hard enough and I'm not going to show up and I'm not on time, even though I'm in the shower this morning thinking, okay, I've been doing this job for 15 years and I don't think I've ever been five minutes late to anything because I'm terrified

of being late because that will show I'm the person I was before. So first of all, sister, do you think you know what you're afraid that I think of you secretly? Yes. Oh, I can't wait. I am afraid that you think that I am inventing the stress that I hold. I am making things unnecessarily harder such that things are not working well instead of what I'm trying to do, which is deal with all the hard stuff so that things work out well. That's good. Wow.

That was such an honor to watch. Thank you. Sister, do you kind of believe it a little bit about me? No, I don't. And in fact, it makes sense because I feel like our conflicts that we have, when I hear you say that, it actually made me sad to hear you say that I think that you could be flighty because I don't believe that for one hot second, but it makes sense when I think about the history of conflict that we have had, it's preemptively defensive of that. Right. So if I think that you might think I'm inventing the stress that I hold, then I have to push to you. No, look at this legitimizing

factors of everything. I'm not, not that I want you to relieve that stress. Not that I want you to feel bad for me, but that I don't want you to think that I'm inventing my own, you know, burdens and then vice versa. Like the way that you get in front of that. So if we could just let down those two things, we probably wouldn't ever have those issues. What about you two? Do you have any secret fears that the other beliefs might believe about you? It's a hard question. Yeah, it's a really hard question. And I was like, just so intrigued watching y'all so beautifully, like y'all are so sweet and respectful to each other and kind and loving that I just like didn't even think about what I was going to say. I was just listening too. Yeah, me too. I think those self-protective thoughts just go back so deep. They run so deep and so hard. Do you have one? What I would say is I think that I worry sometimes that you think that you're not

ever able to see the cracks kind of in our systems because I cover for everybody and do everybody's job. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think I think that. I just want to say a little bit. I think you're inventing stress sometimes. So, Renee, thank you so much. I really needed to get that off my chest, but I was scared.

I want to say one thing. If we're doing this. I think that you have the ability to live six feet off the ground because I'm holding your ass up. There we go. There we go. There we go. And there it is. Okay. Here we go. Thank you for the honesty.

And it's true. I do get to think about my feelings all day and look at hummingbirds and write poetry because you're on the wall. Okay. And I need you on the wall. So then I shouldn't complain that you're having a hard time on the wall and bernie bernie you do sometimes feel like barrett is covering up cracks that you need to see right okay all right i do all right go. You haven't gone yet. There needs to be a moment of reckoning.

Fuck, I don't want to go. It's hot in here. It's so hot in here. I feel lightheaded. I'm sweating. I'm sweating too. I am sweating. I get it.

No, I feel lightheaded. I don't like... I feel like we're on the beginning of the roller coaster. What is the question again? What do you secretly think that Barrett might believe about you? That you're always trying to, like, make a case against with everything you say to her okay i'm so nervous i can't believe you fucking wore a turtleneck you should have known who we were talking to here i guess i have two things i worry that you think that i

am never content or happy or pleased because I set the bar so high. And then I also can worry sometimes, but this is less so. Sometimes I worry that people don't believe me when I say I can't do anymore. But I don't think that's about you because you're usually the first one that says, she's not fucking kidding. You're usually the one that says, like recently I had to cancel a big event. Like I was headlining a big event. And I didn't know what was wrong. I thought I was crazy. Like I actually thought I was crazy.

Like really like talking to Steve about like, do I need to go into like Menninger, like some kind of inpatient thing? What do I need at this point? I was having a ton of anxiety. And the only thing that countered the anxiety was depression. And there were a lot of hard things going on in the world and then also at home. And then I coughed and Steve was like, that doesn't sound good. This was when you said, you cannot do this event. And everybody was like, she has to do the event.

And you're like, she's not doing the event. I don't care. She's not doing the event. And this is going to be one of the hard calls that we have to make. But she can't do the event. But then it turned out I had, this was like two weeks ago, three weeks ago, that I had pneumonia. Wow.

And so my heart was racing because it was doing the work that my lungs couldn't do. And then the depression was I just wasn't getting a lot of oxygen. You know, it was just, I was sick. When we were having that conversation, she said, if I felt physically the way I do mentally right now,

there's no way I could get out of bed to go do this. That's all you should have to fucking say. That's right. You should not have to say anything else. You should not go. Because if you felt that way mentally, you're just going to come back even worse than when you went. And it was to the point where I was like, am I going to be able to get on stage and do anything? Or am I going to like, is something bad going to happen? You know, have

you ever felt like that Glennon? I once, Brede, went on stage with a port in my arm full of IV liquids because I had to get on stage. I was already there, but I was so sick. So there was thousands of people there. They could only get the IV to me with 12 minutes left before I went on stage. So they pumped me full of 12 minutes, didn't have time to take out the port. So I had to go on stage with a port in my arm. Does this make any sense? That's so hard. Right? God, that's hard. Jesus. And then I walked off stage and they had the thing and then they pumped me right back to give me the rest of my IV. But I think what you said is so important to everyone.

But what you just said can apply to everyone. And Brene, you said, I worry that people won't believe me when I say I can't do anymore. And it's true. People don't believe you. People don't believe me. And also, every now and then Barry will be like, fuck your dig deep button. Your dig deep button is the worst part about you. And I was like, what? And she's like, no, it's just, you've got a level of go. You know, I always think about, you know, stapling Abby's head together and putting her back in the game. Like I do have a level of go that is.

Your dig deep button is your superpower and your kryptonite. Yes. Yeah, it is. Because we act like there is no cost to that. Like, oh my God. That's what we say that like, we'll just find it. We'll just find it. Guess where you're going to find it. You're going to excavate digging deep

and you're going to take from over here. And I do that shit all the time. And you know what, where I take from? My marriage. Okay. Yeah. It's coming from somewhere, but we just turn that part off.

We just say who I am is i dig deep not i steal soil from where it rightfully belongs damn damn if we said it that way it would seem less valorous and we wouldn't keep doing it yeah it sounds like shit when you say it that way but it's like do you ever like i'm just gonna glennon and bernie like do you ever, like, I'm just going to, Glennon and Brene, like, do you ever feel like, you know, if I didn't do another thing, I've contributed a lot and I've made this world a fucking greater place. I feel it deep in my bones. I am Joni Mitchell midway down the midway song over and over again. I feel so close to it. I feel like all what we talk about all the time is what is enough, enough, enough, enough, enough.

Yeah, I do feel that way. That there's a time that is coming where, I don't know, that this is going to feel different. I don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but there's not going to be a lot more digging deep. What I want to say to both of you is I love this conversation so much and I love you both and respect you both so deeply. I think the whole world's going to be watching Atlas of the Heart on HBO Max. All three of us have had real beautiful and difficult conversations as a result of watching as you people always do with your work. It's exhausting. As you people also do. Yeah. With your work. It's exhausting.

I will say just before I jumped, I, it's been such a pleasure to watch our teams so support each other. And I'm like, so grateful every time I get to talk to Amanda or email Amanda about something crazy that's coming up. So thank you. When people say stand on the shoulders of others, like I feel like the way you guys support each other has been so amazing. And so it's been really fun to watch. Yeah. I admire you very much. And I see you, the sister keeper in me sees an honor. And we are going on vacation without the other sisters. So yes. High five right here. Get ready. Get ready, Farrah. I'll plan it.

I'll bring the poetry and pictures. I don't think we're invited, sis. Oh, that's right. That's right. Love you both. Love you all. We will see you next time on We Can Do Hard Things. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.

I walked through fire. I came out the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm the one for me And because I'm mine I walk the line Cause we're adventurers

And heartbreaks are met A final destination We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do our thing I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart heart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time

But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on a map A final destination we lack We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home

And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on the map We might get lost but we're okay with that We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things. This is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.