We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Abby Wambach: Will I Ever Be Truly Loved?

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

This is the one!   Our favorite person on the planet – Abby Wambach – is going deep, answering the questions that we all have, but that only Glennon and Amanda can ask.   Abby shares, in an intensely new and courageous way, about her lifelong pursuit of love  – including her complicated relationships with her mom, soccer, her first marriage, queerness, and her “shadow self” – and why she has questioned her own lovability for so much of her life. ABOUT ABBY WAMBACH: Olympian, Activist, Author, and Co-host of the We Can Do Hard Things Podcast Abby Wambach is a two-time Olympic gold medalist, FIFA World Cup Champion, and six-time winner of the U.S. Soccer Athlete of the Year award. She was the United States’ leading scorer in the 2007 and 2011 Women’s World Cup tournaments and the 2004 and 2012 Olympics. Abby is the host of ABBY’S PLACES on ESPN+, in which she showcases what makes her beloved sport of soccer a worldwide sensation. An activist for equality and inclusion, she is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller WOLFPACK as well as the adaptation of WOLFPACK for the next generation, an instant New York Times bestseller. She is a founder and part owner of Angel City FC, the first majority-female-owned soccer team in history, and is a member of the Board of Directors for the non-profit organization Together Rising. Abby lives in California with her wife and their three children. TW: @abbywambach  IG: @abbywambach To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I love to be loved, we need to be known. Okay. Abby, do you think if you put the corner of your mouth on the microphone, that'll somehow like disguise you. You'll only be half present. Yeah, if I look off screen, does it count? Okay, so here's where we're laughing. Oh, it's fun.

First of all, welcome to We Can Do Her Things. Secondly, it is fine, babe. We have my dream interview today, which is why we're already giggling with nervous laughter. We are skydded, all of us, which as those of you know who listen to the words my family makes up, that is half scared, half excited. When you have butterflies and you're about to do a hard thing, but you know it's a good hard thing that will be happy for you when it's over. That's what we're doing today. We are skydded because the interview we have today is Abby Wombach. We wanted to do an in-depth interview with Abby and ask her some questions that no one's ever

asked her before. And as my sister Amanda and I thought through what we wanted the theme of this interview to be, the obvious, you know, categories were like, you're just your greatness. So your achievements in soccer and as a leader, and we're gonna get to all of that. But the more we thought about your life, the more we could not get away from the word love. I wanna tell the pod squad that I had a moment when Abby was moving,

we were moving in together. And she was out of the room and I was opening boxes from her house, and she had just moved from Portland. And I saw this box called, it said books on it. For me, like opening someone's books is the moment where I truly know who they are, regardless of who they've been saying they are. Somebody's books is like a peek inside their soul. So I open up these books and I don't know. I expected them to be about sports and I leadership or this box of books, yall I just started pulling them out one to time and every single one

It was like Naruto love poetry romance poetry Spiritual books everything about how to find God and then another Stack about being an atheist and then another stack about falling in love. It was a box full of love Books and then there stack about falling in love. It was a box full of love books. And then there were journals. Oh, God, the journals. Journal after journal after journal. And I bet you wrote in Abby? Yes.

Or empty aspirational journals. Oh, no, no. Well, a few of them. I had a tendency to get a lot of journals and write for like a few pages and then it goes it up. It has the same. And that is true. There was 100 journals in there. Got two close. Got two series. Oh, that's what I mean about the aspirational journal. I'm like, this year I'm going to be someone

who journals. Yeah. That was for sure me. The journals were, each was a quarter full. That's true. But they were just about love. Most of them were about romantic love and they would, they were about just wanting it desperately and not understanding why it was so hard to get it. So this interview, my love, is about your relentless pursuit of love throughout your life. How do you feel about that? Yeah, that's probably the true statement of who I am. Oh, nailed it, nailed it. Mary Abigail Wombok.

Is an Olympian activist, author and co-host of the Unparalleled. We can do hard things podcast. She is a two-time Olympic gold medalist, FIFA World Cup champion and six-time winner of the US soccer athlete of the year award. She was the United States leading scorer in the 2007 and 2011 Women's World Cup tournaments

and the 2004 and 2012 Olympics. Abby is the host of Abby's Places on ESPN Plus. She's an activist for equality and inclusion and the author of the number one New York Times Best Seller Wolfpack, as well as the adaptation of Wolfpack for the next generation. She is a founder and part owner of Angel City FC, the first majority female- owned soccer team in history,

and is a member of the Board of Directors for the nonprofit organization together, rising. And she's Amanda Doyle's sister-in-law. You've done so many things, my love. Let's start with the first complicated, gorgeous love story of your life, which I think is with Judy Wombok, your mama. Judy. Can you tell us the story you've always told yourself about your mom's love?

And then maybe the one I have heard you noodling on revising lately. How would you describe your love story? I grew up in a really big family. There were nine people living in my house almost at all times and one could probably understand that there was a kind of a fight for the attention of my parents and my mom being kind of the main caregiver, the person that we all looked to for advice to be told what to do. And so I think living in that kind of environment set me up to be a really good pro athlete, because

I was like always striving for something. I think that the early, the early years, my childhood and through my young adult life and my early adult life, I felt really torn because all I really wanted was this love from my mom, this like acceptance, this full acceptance from my mom. And because I had this deep knowing about my gainness, and I felt like, Oh, my mom will never accept this part of me. And so this is where I think I learned how to split myself a little as a young kid, being really athletic, getting that kind of affirmation and attention from my mom really was something that I could hold on to. And there was so much chaos in my house kind of all the time

that a sensitive kid like me who really was trying to feel loved. I think I directed myself in ways that I could get it. And so there are ways that I feel like I knew that I wasn't gonna get it. And so this are ways that I feel like I knew that I wasn't gonna get it. And so this persona, I kind of developed this athlete, this extraordinary athlete, started to develop. And the other part of myself, like who I was,

started to kind of take a more of a shadow side, I guess. There felt like to me like a light side of my life and a shadow side of my life. But I was equally committed to both personally. Like even though from the outside, my family and even my friends on some level might have thought that I've just put so much of myself into my sport, I was really committed to staying kind of normal in a way, having a normal existence. I remember when I was really young, after I'd come home from whatever sporting event it was, my family would be so amazed at like my goals scored or points made on the basketball court.

And I love that. I love that attention. And I love like the respect I can get from my brothers and sisters being the youngest. And yet I always felt like, why can't my mom love like this other part of me? How would you describe that, Abby, that part of you that you felt that you got the message

to keep shadowed? Was it all about being gay or was it other kind of parts of your personality that you thought like this isn't going to be praiseworthy in this house? Well, I think it was like my beingness. It's hard to explain, I guess, because when I was really young, I didn't have the concept of gayness yet. I didn't understand what that meant. And as I kind of grew older, got into my high school years and college years, I started to understand more about myself. My mom would have called me a free spirit, you know, when I was younger in high school, that I marched to the to the beat of my own drum. I kind of like looked out in my family environment and I saw my family in their life,

like doing everything in a certain way. And I just didn't like, I didn't fully buy into it. There were times when my brothers and sisters would be like, Abby, just do it. Follow the herd here. And there was a part of me that always was like, no, there's a better way. There's a different way.

I'm not, I am not this, I am that. And I didn't even know what that was. But it was something that I felt like it was important for me to continue to pursue. And as I got older, I just kind of wrapped that whole thing in gainus, right? I wrapped that whole part of myself in this one thing that I knew my mom would never accept

in me. And that's what I have held on to for my entire life. Like that is where I have martyred myself and probably prevented myself from having any kind of real emotional relationship with my mom. It's so interesting because it reminds me of what Dr. Franco said in the episode 179 where she said about attachment and loneliness that if you don't show sides of yourself and people are showing you love, then you don't believe their love.

And you can't actually receive it because you're always thinking internally. Yeah, but if you knew this, you wouldn't love me. Yeah. And that's what you thought. You thought they love me for my famous, soccer-y self. Yeah. But they don't love the real me. That's the story that you've told about you and your mom for a long time. Yeah. That's right. And, you know, I think the real truth, sister, I think you're hitting on it. But I never wanted probably for fear of rejection, but also fear of my own capability of being vulnerable at that time. I never showed them my full self. I never opened the door and was like, hey, come on in. Here's my weird world. And a lot of factors go into that. I'll

look here or I don't do that there, right? But I didn't have the strength. And a sermon saying you're going straight. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, settle things like that. Yeah. I didn't have like the confidence or strength back then to be able to like see and and be like, no, this is who I am. And we lived in a different time than two. And so I think the true story that I am trying to weave into my life now is, and I don't know if people will understand this or even relate, but I believe that my parents really did their best with what they had. And that my mom loved me in every way she knew how. I've been thinking a lot about all of like,

obviously when I, we have children and I'm driving our kids everywhere and I'm showing up for them in the ways that I know how to love. And now I'm thinking back on my childhood and thinking, my mom sacrificed her whole life for her children. She completely, and not to say that this is the right thing

to do as a parent, I don't know, but she drove me to every soccer tournament, every soccer event, thousands and thousands of miles clicked on that odometer. The amount of murder mysteries we listened to. I mean, I had triptics. The triptics. I'm like a very good navigator. And like we spent so much time together on the New York State through way, I just feel like my mom really did love me in the most amount of way that she possibly was capable of. That generation had a certain memo about parenting.

There was a certain kind of conversation around what love was and how to love a child. And ever since I've retired, I've been getting more and more of that because gone are like the famous soccer Abbey days. Thank God. But here my mom still is. You know, like, as excited about me being a parent as I was about being a gold medalist and as involved in my life as she ever was when I was traveling the world wearing the red, white, and blue. I feel like I put such a huge expectation on what kind of love I needed. And that is true. I am a person that felt based on my circumstances based on the DNA and the heart that I have. I have been in search of love. And I've wanted it from my mom. And I feel like because it wasn't in the exact perfectly wrapped gift

that I have not been able to actually call it love. Mm. But that's so beautiful. It was, I think it was love. And is. So you're saying that the way that your mom has been showing up since you retired has a little bit destroyed your story that she only loved the famous you and was only excited about that part

since now she's showing up just as much for you. It's sort of ruined your thesis statement. Yeah. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy.

And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. Shh. Ah, ah, ah. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. Ah, ah, ah. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them.

She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. It's so interesting from a timing perspective because it feels like so you grew up and she was showing you all of this like affection and adoration for all of your achievements. Then you have this moment where you tell her you're gay and she doesn't handle it well. And then that

sad and terrible thing casts this very long shadow where you go back and you're like, see, now that you know the real me, you can't love the whole me and you're rejecting me in this moment. Therefore, everything you've done for the past 20 years. Yes. Self-prophesy, for sure. Must be that. But then give it 10 years. And now she's still loving you the same way she did in soccer and you're like, oh, wait. Then maybe all of this is love. It's just interesting how we assess things after the fact and the shadow that that casts

both in a way of appreciating love or completely devaluing everything that happened before because of a moment. Yeah. And having our version, you and I talk about this all the time, but it's like, we have this way. We've decided that we need to be loved, which has a lot to do with, to me, I think of it in terms of dimensions. Like, we have this deep inner self, which you say you equated all with gayness, but it was probably a lot of things.

And we want to be loved for this inner self and this outer self and all of these dimensions of ourselves. And because our parents sort of had a different memo about what love was with your parents as you alluded to, and they're like, no, I'm doing it. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And we're like, but you're not loving me on all the dimensions that I need.

And they're like, but I don't even know what you mean. Yeah, they're like, what dimensions? Right. I live in this dimension, the one where I drive your ass all over New York. And that's love. And then it feels like in 20 years, our kids, there will be some other dimension that because of the way that culture evolves, it will be so obvious that we should have been loving

them that way. And they will come to us and say, what the hell? You didn't even love me because you didn't love me on this dimension. And we're like, so sorry. Didn't know that dimension existed, but loved the shit out of you, the way that I knew too. Yeah, it's terrifying. And I think that there is a responsibility that I never was able to honor in myself

and a fear and all of that, that like I didn't do anything to establish the relationship with my mom, giving her all parts of myself. I just caged the parts of myself, called it gay, packed it away, and shut the door and locked it and threw away the key. And that, that's, that was a choice I made. And I have a responsibility in the outcome or the consequence of that. I think that I'm old enough now and why is enough now? And I'm sober enough now.

I mean, I'm sober now, to be able to see that. Oh, yeah, this wasn't just a one-way street that my mom was walking down. I also put a stop to that relationship from being fully evolved because I could have said or are 25 years old when I was a proper adult. Hey, mom, this isn't working for me. I need to be loved in a certain way. I could have done certain things. I wasn't capable then, and I know that now. This is not revisionist history. This is just trying to really see it for what it is, like the truth of what it is. And as my parents age, as my mom is getting older, I think it's important for us

to really revisit these stories that we have permanently inked into our beings and see if they're true or not. It's so interesting that you say you wrapped it all up and called it gay, that the part of you that was questioning everything that your parents told you you should be because that is queerness. Right. It was all of your queerness. It was like, not that. No, thank you. Questioning the way we do this, different than that. I feel of your queerness that was like not that. No thank you questioning

the way we do this. Different than that. I feel like your mom and soccer are so tied together in your original story. And clearly, one of the love stories of your life has been between you and soccer. So cute. Abby Wong-Bock. Did you play soccer because you loved it? Or did you play soccer to get love? Or both? I think the answer has to be both here. But I feel like this is the most boring podcast in the world. Just so you know, I think that what you just said was the most beautiful, well-artic articulated, world shifting.

I thought it was like if we ended it right now, I would be like everyone needs to listen to this 20 minutes. You are crushing. All right, so when I was five years old, I went to my very first soccer game and I scored nine goals and next soccer game I scored. And they were like three games in one day. And we're walking back to the car and my mom said, so how many goals did you score? And I said 27. She said, how many goals did the other team score? I said zero. And she was like, okay, what about passing?

How do you feel about, you know, assist making? And I said, well, I don't understand what the problem is. If the whole point of the game of soccer or the score mark was in the other team, and I can do that better than somebody else, why would I pass? And she was like, oh, K, might have to work on humility at some point.

And so that's how I was just a very talented little kid, doing weird stuff at younger ages and everybody else in my family. And so from the beginning, I knew that this was going to be my thing. And I loved that. I loved being good at something. And it gave me self confidence. And it gave me that affirmation and adoration from my family and from my mom felt like my

whole world. I feel like love? Yeah, when do you remember feeling love because of soccer? Oh, instantly. We always had family night dinners every single night. And all of us would have a sign seats and we'd be sitting there and everybody got to talk

about their day and it was always chaos and everybody's interrupting each other. But at some point they'd say, Abby, how is your game? And I'd be like, it was great. How many goals you do score? And I'd say all of them. I mean, I was a little.

I was also probably insecure when I was young because I was just trying so hard to be something in this huge group of people that felt like bigger or some things. And so I loved seeing the shock on the faces of like my brothers and sisters like, what? And they were always really good at pumping me up. I think that as time went on, I was always pretty good. I was always one of the best. I played on a boys team when I was really young because this is the long time ago

and elite girl soccer club teams weren't really a thing. And I think that the love of the game was there. It was also really hard. Even at 10, 11, 12, 13 years old, I felt this pull, like this weird energy that was like, this is not gonna consume me. This is a part of who I am, but I will not let it consume my whole person.

Kind of like in your family, where you're like, I am part of this crew, but I am different. I'm gonna hold onto that. I am from you, but not of you. Yes. Yeah, I had friends, and you know, when I got to high school, I am different. I'm gonna hold on to that. And from you, but not of you. Yes. Yeah. I had friends and when I got into high school,

I was on the varsity team in eighth grade and I had older friends and so that was really fun. Do you remember a time when the love that soccer got you, where your talent started to feel like a block of connection. So there was a soccer game that where I played it's called sectionals in New York State, all the different regions of high schools they play and then you play for a state championship. And I think she says like that's normal. And then obviously you play for a state championship day too every time I'm on the team every time. No, my sophomore year I think this was we

got into the final of sectionals and we were winning two to one and the other team Grease Athena they got a penalty kick against us Mercy Monarchs and my coach called me over the sideline as soon as I got the penalty kick and she looks at me and she says, do you think you can save it if I put you in goal? I'm a forward, I'm on the field, I'm a field player. And I just like was like, yes, of course I can. She goes, okay, calls our goalkeeper

to the sidelines and says switch jerseys. And so I put the freaking goalkeeper jersey on. I do my best impression of a goalkeeper to the sidelines has switched jerseys. And so I put the freaking goalkeeper jersey on. I do my best impression of a goalkeeper like I'm jumping, grabbing the crossbar, trying to psych out the penalty kick taker. And I don't know how this happens this way, but the the penalty kick taker shot the ball right at me. I saved the goal. I'm now in goal. I'm now the goalie. So we end up winning the game minute later or whatever. And there's a picture. It gets in the newspaper, television stations. And so I remember being so excited for our team. And then like the next morning, the newspapers come out with the articles

and then that night, the new stations put the story on air. And I remember feeling like, oh no, something different is happening now. Like I knew I was the best player, but I wasn't yet the magnified only player that does the thing for the team. And also, I felt horrible for our goalkeeper. She was our goalkeeper.

Except when it really mattered. She was goalkeeper until it really mattered. And then she wasn't. So that is a tricky situation for you to be in. I felt super torn and I go home to my family and they're so excited for me. And I'm like, but I love my teammates. Like, I don't want to be different than them. I want to be the same as them.

I want them to know that I feel like I'm the same as them. I don't want to have this divide. So then it was this weird feeling like, oh, now I'm like this singled out thing in the soccer space, which drove my desire for normalcy and my other life to be even more important. Like, my friends in high school, we would go to parties and I would ask them to change my name so that nobody knew who I was there. And it wasn't like for protection, it was so that I could fit in. I didn't want to be seen or treated any differently.

That was really important to me. It's just fascinating to me that the talent part of your soccer got in the way of the thing you really wanted from soccer, which was togetherness. Yeah. And love and love and connection. Yeah. I find it so fascinating when you talk about how when you are admired for talent, it's almost impossible for it to feel like love. And why is that? Yeah.

So here we are. I'm like on the relentless pursuit of love. I'm trying to figure out how to get people to love me. And so I put on certain costumes, and this is like the soccer costume I put on and I'm like people will love me. I'm going to become the best at this and people will then love me. But there's actually nothing about me that people actually know by watching me play soccer. I'm, and I think that maybe that's why I played with so much passion and emotion is because the whole time I was like, love me. Just see me. I'm here. Look at me.

I'm a soccer player, but I'm more than that. Watch me. That makes sense. Yeah, and talent is not a person's personhood, and it's not their heart, per se. What talent is, you can see their work ethic, you can see their natural gifts, but it's not really the person that you get to know.

It's like this persona, the outline of a human being. And so it feels fake. So it was fake. It just makes me wonder because we have now met so many people who are so freaking good at one thing. They have achieved this level of greatness. And I would say, and I think you probably would too, that percentage wise, it's amazing at how many of them feel so lonely, isolated, unseen, fucked up in lots of ways.

So much to the point where you know, I'm wish for my children to not be extremely great at anything, just because I've seen the results for real. I don't believe in it. Because when I think about in order to be that great, you had to not pay attention to any of the parts of life that actually make you feel loved, like actual relationships, connection, the mundane things, one day, like you had to ignore that

to achieve greatness. Do you think that greatness comes at the cost of connection and peace? Yeah, I think that there comes at the cost of connection and peace? Yeah, I think that there's a very small part of the population that can achieve. At least I can speak for athletic greatness, like I was able to achieve, like in terms of the whole of the world. But I do think there are some people that are able to manage it in better ways than I was. Kristen Press is the first person I think of somebody who takes her full humanity. Yeah.

She centers it. Like she centers it as you can't watch me and soccer without knowing this about me. So it's kind of like a requirement. If you're going to buy this, you're also going to buy this. Yes. And what I would call her is an outlier, right? Of this of this even smaller fraction. She's like a minuscule percentage point of this minuscule percentage point of people

that make it into them. But yeah, I do think for me, my greatness compromised my real ultimate goal in my life, which was to feel lovable. Tell us the moment that you realized, because I think I know this answer, but when you finally realized, oh my God, soccer is answer, but when you finally realized, oh my god, soccer's not going to ever love me back enough for me. Like, this isn't going to work. So you can imagine a person striving for that deep need for love and thinking, you're going to

get it through this one medium through, and I thought it was soccer. I'm gonna finally be loved and beloved and and lovable through the game. And in 2012, I think the awards happened in 13, but it was for the year of 2012. I got the FIFA player of the year award. Somebody literally handed me a trophy that crowned me the best in the world. And I realized that night I remember laying in bed feeling like oh, I still feel void. I still feel unlovable in this weird way. And I think I realized then that

my talent and soccer world wasn't really an exploration or a show of who I really was. It was just like that part of myself, like the quote, unquote, perfect part of myself, like the soccer part of who I created my soccer avatar. Yeah, you had to reach the top of the mountain. there was no further left to climb and you're like but Wait, I was waiting for the feeling. Yeah Because there's nowhere else to go up and it's still not here. That means it's not coming. There was no there there Yes, the only way I can explain it Everybody wonders. Oh, and everybody aspires to being the best in their

field or whatever. And that wasn't the thing. That wasn't the thing that was going to fix my internal angst about my life. It's so relatable to me. I feel like so many of us do that. We still feel the void. And so we think, oh, I just need to get one wrong hire in the ladder. Oh, I still feel the void. So it must be that I just need to get two rings higher. And then Abby gets to the very top of the ladder where she's looking down at everybody else and she realizes this might have just been the wrong ladder. Or I needed to be climbing something else at the same time, but I've done the thing as high as possible. And it wasn't the climb to the top that was ever going to make me feel. Whole. Yeah. Yeah. It was really weird. I was excited that night. And then I I got back to the room and my parents were so excited. And I remember looking around and being like,

you're the best. And also, I do have to say this because this is actually what I believe philosophically. It's just fucking impossible to name one person the best at something like that's such a relative thing. There's so many positions and so many people like just because I scored goals didn't mean that I was better than some of my teammates who passed me the ball or saved the goal from going in our own net. Did it feel a little bit like that time you got put in the goal? And then all the attention was on you, but it felt icky because. Yeah, because then you have to go back to your team.

And they're like, congratulations. And I know deep down that like some of them are like, we helped you get that fucking thing. And also deep down someone were like, you're not that good at soccer, because the truth is, I was one of the best at scoring goals. I know that deep down. But I wasn't really a good soccer player.

Like this might be a sign from this podcast. Abby Wombuck, not really that good of a soccer player. Like this is the headline from this podcast, Abby Wombuck, not really that good of a soccer player. I was really exceptional at this one thing. And if I was fit, I was one of the best at it in the world. But I was not a technical player. I'm not the player that can break down a defense in my mind and like go in a locker room and be like, all right, you guys, here's

what we need to do. Here are the X's, Y's and Z's of the next game plan. I was just like, give me the ball. That like literally brute force. Yeah, I will get it in there. Yes. Yeah. And that relentlessness to score.

I also had like an relentless of energy and emotion that I played with probably because I was like, please love for me, everybody. But I wasn't necessarily like the best soccer player on any team that I played on. I was just good at the one thing. I think it's so interesting what you're saying about, like this loneliness and alienation from people

as a result of being elevated from people and And that kind of makes sense even from a visual. When you put someone on a pedestal, hey, you're giving them a job. Like you are now on this pedestal. Don't disappoint us. We've given you a job you didn't ask for. You're up there. So when you open the paper and you're like, Oh, wait, I'm the one in the paper. Okay. So I'm different. If you're up on the pedestal, then people are looking up at you. You're not looking at each other and you're not being together. And so there's this separation that happens. And I wonder if that just inevitably leads to loneliness.

If everyone has collectively decided you're up there, then you are necessarily not down here with us, where people make actual friendships and actually are together. Yeah. It's like how Pride is the other side of the coin of shame. Yeah. Because it's like, shame is I'm below us all, and Pride is I'm above us all, but all the good stuff is just in being equal and the same as other people and you didn't have any of that.

Well, it's pride and what? Abby's one of the most proud people on our team. I don't think it's pride that's wrong. It's pride and what? So now she's supposed to instead of have pride in her team and be generating the will and the excitement and the connection with other people, it's supposed to just be in herself and her own achievements.

Like, that's pressure and that's scary and that's lonely. Lonely. Well, and I spent my whole life, this is not just in the national team, but my whole life yearning for the connection of my teammates. And so it was a complicated matter when I knew I was one of the best on the team When you're on any team there's competition regardless And so I made it my mission to and I really philosophically believe this like truly But it was also with a desire to create and to have the connection of my my teammates to be friends with them

That all of my interviews, all of the things that I talk about, were about them. I was always trying to deflect like what was happening to me personally, individually, to talk about the collective, because I really, all I was doing while playing soccer was trying to get the connection

and love of my teammates. And I was doing it through this certain way, but sometimes it separated me from having that connection and that deep desire for feeling loved that I think I was in search of all along. So you get the player of the year, here at the top of the mountain, you don't feel... I guess it's like satisfied.

It's like a deep satisfaction that you're trying to settle into, and then a year later you get married. Can you tell us about whatever you want to tell us about the first marriage? And why did you get married? I think that the FIFA award made me see that soccer wasn't going to be the thing that eased the angst. And at the time, I didn't have these words. I didn't know that I was like in search of love or love ability. I was just like, what's the next thing that I need to do? And next mountain Ica climb.

Yeah, like the world. Surely it's at the top of that. The prescription that you get from the world is like the higher you achieve the better you have it, the happier you'll be. And I bought that stupid bullshit. So I remember that next year I got married and the relationship had its ups and downs

even before we got married. But I really, I loved her. And I felt like this could be a relationship that lasts forever. But there was also something about it that I think was missing. And I think a lot of people out there will totally relate to this maybe. Oh, the missing pieces of marriage. Like the thing that you're looking for will be fixed with a lifelong commitment of a marriage. So we get married months later after the FIFA awards.

And I'm waiting to expect like the happily forever after feelings. Whatever this void is and I'm trying to like fix or fill. These are the angst is so freaking good. I love that. Because I've been on teams my whole life, I was thinking, okay, maybe this is going to make us a team finally. Like I feel like maybe that was like something that like we weren't necessarily. Maybe this is going to make us a team finally. I feel like maybe that was something that we weren't necessarily. We were kind of like individuals walking side by side. Maybe I felt like I was walking ahead at times because of my career.

And so I thought, oh, for sure, marriage team, that's it. That's the fix. And that wasn't the fix. In fact, it felt like immediately after our marriage, we started to even get more separated in our individual experiences and lives that just kept fracturing us. And by the way, our whole relationship

I was gone for so much of it. And again, this is me splitting myself, soccer Abby, and trying to have like a normal life Abby. And it was a really confusing and hard time because, you know, when you think about the struggle that I had with my mom and the relationship I had with her, me putting all of my eggs in my gayness basket. And then I have the gay wedding.

And my mom is there. And then the gay marriage is falling apart. Oh, shit. And so I'm like, fuck, this is proof that my mom is right. Yeah, you're ruining it for the team. Like, this is fucking proof that shoot everything. And I think that that was also like one of my deep fears because of my internalized homophobia. Maybe my mom is right. And I think that this is also the case for much of the struggles that I ever had with my life.

I turned to drinking as the solve. I just relate so much to the idea that we often escalate a relationship to fix or create something that's not there. Instead of only escalating a relationship because of what's already there. Our marriage is struggling, so we're gonna have a baby. Or like this job isn't right for me, so I'm gonna get a promotion. Or something's missing from this relationship,

so let's just get married. And like the escalation doesn't ever bring the thing that was missing. It only escalates and illuminates what wasn't there in the beginning. So the idea that we maybe consider only escalating because of like a celebration of what's there and not to create what was never there.

Yeah, and I wanted to say that first marriage was so important for me. And I learned more about myself, I think, than in any other experience, because I was so heartbroken around being the failure at marriage. I was so confused. I just want to say, like, I went into it with real pure intentions. You know, this is hindsight 2020, a lot of this stuff. I thought that it was going to work out and I thought it was going to be great. And it wasn't. And that doesn't mean the person I married was bad or wrong. And it also doesn't mean that I was bad or wrong. It just

means like we made a decision that it wasn't best for both of us. It was an extraordinarily difficult time in my life. We were married for two or three years, two years without being separated. And we really, we, we struggled a lot. And I'm so grateful because it taught me so much. I'm so grateful because it taught me so much. I have seen the depths of the darkness. Mm-hmm. And I think that almost every divorce in a lot of ways feels that way. And I'm glad not to be in that darkness anymore,

but I'm also grateful to that marriage and the hardship of it because it makes me, I don't know, the love that I have around it and the protective nature that I feel for it, I think it still lives in me today. And it's part of who I am. I love about you, Abby, that you honor and protect your ex-wife and your marriage.

So beautifully, I feel like that's such a priority for you. And I think it's it respect for yourself. You honor every piece of your life before now and protect it whether or not it's an active part of your life. And I just think that's a really beautiful, honorable thing about you. This is my story, right?

Like, my ex has her story, and I don't think it would be fair of me to insinuate that her story is the exact same as mine, because there are always two sides, and her heart breaks might be different than mine, and her reasons might be different than mine, and her stories might be different than mine, which is true. All of it can be true. I just think it's important that, especially now that we have so many years in between then and now, I've just done a lot of work around it and I'm grateful to be where I am.

It's a weird thing we do where we just demonize or throw things away because they end it. We don't have to do that. We can hold a lot of things at once. We're going to stop here because we're going to get to the next episode and we're going to start with your strategy of numbing and coping all of the angst with booze. Drinking a love story, I think that's a title of a book which I love that title so much, but I do want to just, I don't know, this is so weird. I just want to send love to your acts. I just am so grateful for the part she played in making you who you are.

Do you have anything to say, either of you, before we wrap this up? No, I said enough. I said enough. I said enough. You're perfect and wonderful. who you are. Do you have anything to say either of you before we wrap this up in the next episode? I said enough. You're perfect. I just really can't wait to talk about Abby's unrequited love in the next episode because I find that whole thing fascinating. Yeah. Okay. And we're talking about that. I'm quite a love in addition to the drinking which also appears to have been in a lot of. Yes.. It's so far to theme, isn't it? I think maybe this is the theme of my life until you're gone.

All right, we'll see you back here next time for Abby Wombok Part 2. Thanks for hanging with us, y'all. Sorry, it was so boring. It was not boring, it was beautiful, you are beautiful. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you,

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While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walk through a fire I came out the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continued to believe That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine, I want the line Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, a final destination You're glad, you stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain

That our lives bring, we can do a heartache. I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers

And heartbreak so mad A final destination with that We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do a heartache heart This world finished her rose and heart breaks on land We might get lost but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do hard things Yeah, we can do our things Yeah, we can do our things you