We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Are Old Women Really Irrelevant?

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

378. Are Old Women Really Irrelevant?  Glennon, Abby and Amanda are talking with you, Pod Squad, about questions around women and aging and wtf “processing emotions” really means in action.  -How becoming useless to the culture will set you free  -The truth about how to stop people pleasing once and for all -Personal tips for moving through an emotional wave.  AND! If you would like some solicited advice, please reach out:  If you have a problem you want to write about, email us at [e-mail] with a subject line, SOLICITED ADVICE.  If you want to share how a guest or an idea from the podcast has changed your life, email us at [e-mail] with the subject line, MADE ME DO IT. If you want to call in, give us a call and use the word, “ADVICE” at the top of your voice mail at 747-200-5307. We can’t wait to hear from you! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Thank you. We will see you there. Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have missed you. Here's what we're doing today. We have had so many amazing conversations with so many brilliant experts and we do love those episodes.

But our favorite episodes are the ones where it's more family meeting vibes, right? It's like the three of us and some pod squatters. And so that's what we get to do today. We are absolutely delighted. We are taking your questions and we are going to give you our responses. Now, please hear that we are not giving you answers. We don't know answers, but we are going to respond and be together, right? Yep, that's my goal.

I'm right here with everyone. You're right here with everyone? That's nice. Good for you babe. I'm also right here with everyone. Yes, I'm excited because as fun as it is to talk to all the people, it's very, very fun

to talk to our people. And I love when they call in. It's such a delight. Me too. You're a damn delight. Let's start with Georgia. I love that name, by the way. What a good name.

Yeah. Hi, my angel. My name is Georgia. My query, quandary, thought, you know, saying is I'm in my 20s, I'm 26, I'm 27. And the thing that comes to mind a lot is that I'm really dreading becoming irrelevant. I'm actually super excited to age and go into my 30s. And like, that feels like a big gift, especially with so much shit going on in the world, just to age.

But it seems like women from 40 to 65 are considered irrelevant in the society. How do we integrate them into our world? I'd love to hang out with some 40 year old women. Like they actually seem really cool. They just seem overlooked. I'm not excited for that part of my life. I'd love to, I don't know, make it more fun or not irrelevant. Okay, I love you guys. That's all. Face us. Georgia, Georgia, Georgia.

Sweet baby Georgia in her twenties. Why have we not been calling our Q&A episodes queries? Oh my God. It's a really huge mistake. Queries. Why have we not been calling our Q&A episodes queries? Oh my God. It's a really huge misstep. Queries. Queries. How did I miss that? How did I miss that gay pun?

I'm obsessed with gay puns. Abby and I just had a big conversation with a lot of our queer friends that we were all planning a thing together. And there's this thing we decided that happens when there's a critical mass of queer couples that you can get other queer people to join by just telling them how many queer people are already going, then they'll feel left out and want to come. And

we call this queer pressure instead of peer pressure. I thought you were going to say homo instead of homo. Well, Megan Fally, when I said to her it's queer pressure, she said it's homo-fomo, which is better. Because Megan's a poet, so of course. So anyway, that was an aside. Let's come back to Georgia. Okay, I want to hear your all's take, your guys' take on this, because I feel like I'm

going to have a weird one of what was happening in my body when I was listening to Georgia say this question. For example, when Georgia said the words, it seems like women from 40 to 65 are considered irrelevant. How do we integrate them into our world? My immediate thought was, Georgia, stay the hell away from us. We do not want to be integrated back in to your world that we just narrowly escaped with our lives. Okay? Georgia? Georgia, don't cry for us Argentina. Okay?

Secondly, here's what I want to say, George. I have two stories to tell you. One of them, if you've listened carefully to this podcast, you may have heard before, but it's in a different context and it's important for me to tell it this way. I read this story in a book called How really big beautiful forest in Oakland, California. And it had been around for a very long time and the people loved the forest, but then the foresters came, okay, and they needed to harvest all the wood. So they came in with their bulldozers and whatever tree people use,

and they start chopping down trees. Okay? Now, over time, all the trees start disappearing. There's this one tree that the loggers don't cut down. It is an old, twisty, twisty tree. It's not shaped conveniently like all the other trees. They need the, you know, like straight wood. This is like a queer tree, okay?

This is like, this tree is misshapen. It's old, it's curvy. So at the end of the day, this tree is the only tree left standing. The reason why it's left standing is because it was useless to the loggers. Wow. Hold that thought. Last year I read this book called The Matrix by Lauren Groff. Lauren Groff is such a good writer that honestly she pisses me off.

I love it when you read a book and you're like, damn it. Yes. I just say damn it every few pages. It's so good. She's so good. I also read an article where she writes two or three books at a time. What? Well, that's crazy. They're like in different parts of her home and she goes to this one and then she goes to that one. And if you understood how freaking intricate and incredible every book

is, I don't understand it. Okay. She has this book called The Matrix. Okay. Or Matrix. this book called The Matrix, okay? Or Matrix. Loosely, it's a story about this woman a long time ago who leaves her village and creates this like, convent kind of, like this nunnery. The nunnery ends up being integral to the survival of the people in this huge culture in like this revolutionary, crazy, weird way that

only a bunch of outcast badass women could create. There's this one part in the book where the woman who's leading the nunnery is explaining how she started this whole thing, because it's very strange for a woman to be leading this way. She explains that she was from a group of sisters in a family and she was the only one who wasn't pretty. All of her other sisters were beautiful women and so one at a time they were picked off by men in the town. And they were all now living like, maybe they were happy, whatever.

I don't know. It was a time where they were being dominated by their husbands. They were second-class citizens and they were basically servants in their homes. Because she was useless. To the culture. To that culture.

This is how she defined it. Because she did not have the characteristic that was most valued in that culture. She was left alone to create her own life. She became this leader of this nunnery and she was free. Okay. Georgia. We do not want to find a way to continue to be useful to the world that has sucked us dry. Okay. I am so serious, Georgia, when I say that I have never been more excited, never been more started to feel more free. I feel like I understand what George is saying. I now walk down the street, nobody looks at me. I feel like underestimated all the time.

I feel like in some ways this like the world, the cultural relevance, it goes down a little bit. I feel like age for a woman can be a little bit like wearing an invisibility cloak. But do you know how dangerous and happy a bunch of women underneath an invisibility cloak are? I was with my daughters the other day and I was so pissed because they came home and were like, they went for a walk and Abby knows this, they got catcalled on the street. And I just, you know, they felt very icky, that ick that begins when you're 10 and then doesn't stop until you're 50. And I felt so exhausted for them. I just felt so like, wow, we are entering a time where yes, the bad news is we might be ignored

on the street and the good news is we might be ignored on the street. Like we can do whatever for the, we are not going to be sought out for or used like those logs in the forest anymore. Once you hit 50, the bad news is you might be a little less needed by your kids. The good news is you might be a little less needed by your kids. The bad news is in a meeting you might be overlooked because you suddenly don't look like the freshest,

most usable item. But that's the good news too. It's a superpower, I think. And especially for women, I mean, I do think that the world sort of looks at young women like a freaking forest of trees that can be cut down and used in a million trillion different ways. And the name of that tree that was left there

because it was unusable and it kept being able to grow in weird swirly ways is called Old Survivor. That's the name of that tree. So Georgia, we're just old survivors. Like, please, honey, you're looking at me and I'm almost 50 and you're thinking, oh my God, that's so scary. She feels irrelevant.

And I'm thinking, oh my God, Georgia, you're 20. I feel so tired for you. Just hang in there. You will get to the point where you too can be an old survivor. All I wanna do for my life, I mean, Abby and I talk about it all the time. We think of our house as like, we call it the coven.

All we want to do for the rest of our lives is to have old women around us and sit on the couch together and cackle and dream up schemes we can do underneath our invisibility cloaks and be irrelevant to the culture so we can finally be relevant to ourselves and our friends and our lives and our integrity and our creativity and our joy and our freedom. So that's where I am. I would not go back to being 20. I would not go back to being 30. I would not go back to being 40. I just keep feeling freer and freer. And I think about that. My hair's, you know, it's an inch of gray now.

I keep dying it. Maybe I'll stop at some point. I notice all these wrinkles and like my body's looking different and I'm kind of like, okay. Like, I feel, I'm smiling. They can't see me, but I feel a little bit like, this is the superpower of what will signal to the world that I'm irrelevant so I can finally be left the fuck alone

and do whatever the hell I wanna do. It's really good. I have no notes. Really? Yeah. It's really good. Yeah, those are beautiful stories. I think there's a few things, like she was saying from the posture of, I feel so bad,

I don't want to be invisible like that. But also how do I integrate into my life, which is in some ways what you're saying too. You're saying you want your coven and you want older people there integrated into your life. And I think it's a really good call. Just a side note of that we didn't discuss on this is like the intergenerational aspect of it is really wise for people to have older people that they hang out with and younger people that they hang out with. We're learning from all of those folks. And I think it's one of the, just in the very, very recent history of humanity,

we have lost that, which is very unfortunate because I think that's why we're a little adrift is that we don't have that wisdom being passed down and passed up. That's an important piece of it. I think of it as like the relevant means important to the matter at hand. And like, that's the thing, right? that relevant means important to the matter at hand.

And like, that's the thing, right? We are no longer important to the matter at hand, which is the uber striving and trying to find your identity, the uber striving to prove yourself and your worth and to be desired. I mean, there's plenty of older women that are trying to be desired, but I think they're actually more interested in what they desire as opposed to being desired, which is the shift there.

It's also a little science and biology here because a lot of women are going through perimenopause, menopause, postmenopause during this period of time that we're talking about. And it's like literally the chemicals in your body make you give less shits, make you care. Like the nurture part of you starts to fade away. And so you get to be like,

oh, I don't actually give a fuck anymore and I'm just gonna go and live my own life. And for me, I'm excited about that. Yeah, somebody needs to tell us, I read this. I'm not saying it's true. I think it is though. There's this thing called the veil, that like we call it menopause, we call it whatever,

but what Abby's saying is science. There's something that's equivalent to a people pleasing hormone that starts to disappear. It's estrogen. That's the empathy, the taking care of everyone around you. That's an evolutionary thing that is wired in us so that the people around us don't die. Yeah. So it makes you understand then why men tend to trade their wives in for younger models. I don't believe that it's just all about like better boobs or whatever. I think that they want somebody that still is strongly in the people pleasing. Caring for them. Hormone. Yes. Like, they can sense a woman who has become only relevant to herself

and they can sense a woman who is still, you know, striving to be chosen and an important part of the capitalism experience, which it does include little family units where women are running the show at home. And, you know, I mean, it's, it's all part of a bigger system, but I do wonder if the reason why, and I'm sure I felt exactly the same way as Georgia when I was in my twenties and thirties. Like a pity about older women. Yeah. And I wonder if it's because we have lost the intergenerational thing. Like if all Georgia's seeing in media is what the media wants people to think of older women,

which is that they are sad and just all sitting at home wishing their kids would come home and they're all like, you know, they're all staring wistfully at 20 year olds just wishing to go back. Yeah. Maybe if- Not for all the money in the world when I go back to Yeah. Maybe if not for all the money in the world, back to 20. No. So maybe

if, you know, I should, it makes me think as I create my coven world of older women who are sitting around cackling with me that we should invite younger ones in to see us. Like just to see us. Just alternate programming. Right, to just see that actually this is the promised land. Actually what they're selling you as the end is the real beginning. Yeah.

It's like a dream to become this sort of old woman, not something to avoid. It's hard to sell something to an older woman who has herself. It's hard to sell something to an older woman who has herself. That's it. And what a vision to not only like have those glimpses. I think the dream world vision is not like, you want to see us so that you can imagine being this

when you're older. So then you can imagine that this is what's ahead. It's the way we used to live is, we're all living this together. Exactly. The older people are living with the middle people who are living with the younger people. And so that is all happening at once.

So you have an older woman's wisdom in you throughout every step of that. You have the younger person's awe and joy, every step of that. You have the younger person's awe and joy, every step of that. And we have like such fragmented lives from isolation and from just we're surrounded by people with this very narrow frame of reference on life. And that's at the detriment of all of us. It's a damn shame. As my daughter starts to enter into the phase where she will be going through puberty and she will be starting to go through all those stages. I'm like, I want all kinds of women around her all the time.

I don't want her only talking to 12 year olds. I want us all to be doing life together at every stage, which would be a goddamn dream. But I think it is relevance is a question of centering. Who are you centering? Because I know that now when I go to a concert, I get maimed left and right. And that was a shock the first time people started like, excuse me, ma'am. And I was like, oh, I'm wearing tight black pants. And so ma'am like, that's a first. So I know that I am invisible to those 30-year-old men. But I feel absolutely as visible as I've ever been to the people who are in my orbit.

I feel more visible than ever. So why are we looking at that 30-year-old man's perspective and calling it invisible when in fact, it's the first time I've really emerged as visible in my real life ever. So we're choosing some random perspective, and it's not at all random, and calling that true of the whole thing. Yeah, and we can forgive Georgia for thinking that that perspective is the perspective, because that is media's perspective.

Queerness can help the start of this because for the first few years of being married to Abby, I started to experience what it feels like to not be living under the male gaze, truly. It was a very strange experience to suddenly be in rooms, be at a party, and feel the difference when I was not feeling like prey. Okay, like there was something that shifted

in the energy around me, in the way people approached me, in the way men did and did not approach me, in the way women did and did not approach me, where I started to understand, oh, everyone is seeing me differently. I am not a conquest for that man anymore. I am not a competition for that woman anymore. It changed in my every experience of my life. You were not important to the matter at hand for that man or that woman.

So therefore you were irrelevant for those. Right. Same when I'm walking down the street, same when I'm in a store, everywhere now, when I'm with Abby, I have a different experience than when I'm not with Abby. And when I'm at a place where everyone knows me and knows I'm queer, I have a different experience

than when I'm in a room where no one knows me and no one knows I'm queer. And I can feel it and no one could ever talk me out of it. I know exactly the difference. It's in the air around me. To live outside of the male gaze, even in moments in this country as a woman, is a fucking miracle. It's also a challenge because there are things you get and things you need from people in power. And so I'm not knocking it, but to live free of it at all is a miracle

that makes me understand and want to step into also being outside of capitalism's gaze. We don't talk about that enough. Being seen as a conquest is to live inside the male gaze, but to be seen as a resource. Consumer. Or consumer or any sort of resource is to live inside of capitalism's gaze. And so to become an older woman, to not be marketed to all the time anymore because they think you, I don't know why the hell that is true, but to not be invited to as many things, to

not be tapped on the shoulder as many times, to not be catcalled, to not be zeroed in with a red target all the time is for me the next level of the queer experience that I had. Yeah. Thank you, Georgia. We love you. You're invited to my house to sit around with a coven and just dream of one day joining. ["The First Day of My Life"]

What's up, Spotify? this is Javi. I remember this one time we were on tour. We didn't have any guitar picks and we didn't have time to go to the store so we placed an order on Prime and it got there the next day ready for the show. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And we make a TV show called Severance. On January 17th, Severance is back for season two on Apple TV Plus, and we can't wait for

you guys to see it. And before the premiere, Ben and I are going to be binging season one and putting out daily recap podcasts. Yep. Each weekday beginning January 7th, we'll be dropping an episode featuring exclusive behind the scenes tidbits and brilliant insights from our cast and crew and us. Patricia Arquette, Britt Lauer, Zach Cherry, John Totoro, the list goes on. All your favorite Lumen employees, their friends, families, enemies in your feed every single weekday.

And here's the best part. After that, we're going to keep going. Tune in weekly as we recap every episode of Season 2. The podcast drops on the same day the episode comes out. It's The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam. On Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's hear from Casey. Hi, Glenn and Abby and Amanda. My name is Casey and I'm a huge fan of the podcast. I've been listening since you started and I had a question for you. I was listening to the episode on confronting crisis with compassion and it came up a lot, the idea of needing to process emotion. I was wondering, what do you think that actually means? How do you

process emotion? Because I think what I normally do is what you all sort of described as jumping straight into action. Glennon, you were talking about calendaring out the treatment plan for Amanda and that not really being processing emotion. So I'm just wondering what does processing emotion mean and how do you do it? Thank you so much. Casey, I love people who ask the questions that everyone's thinking. Like, what the hell do you mean when you say processing emotion? Because there's so many phrases we throw around that's like, truly, what the fuck does that mean? But I don't wanna be the last one to ask

because it seems like everyone's saying it like they know what the fuck it means. I am just learning this, which is why I like Casey, because she's talking about the episode from a while back what we did about when going through the breast cancer situation. And I remember I had not cried yet. And so I was reading Prentice Hemphill's book, where they talk about setting like a date with yourself to do it. And I was like, okay, I know that this is probably something I need to do. And I just don't cry really.

And so I set a time and I went into my basement and I was like, this will be the time where I cry about breast cancer. And like, I put a candle on, I put on my friend Wendy's t-shirt that her partner gave me and I put on music and I just cried. And it was really good. And then I finished that.

And then flash. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Stop for one second. I need to process this. Okay. First of all, I need to know, was it on your to-do list? I just have a few follow-up. Was it like something that you wrote

on your list for the day? It was planned. There was a yes. It was planned, yes. Okay, and then when you got down to the basement, did you have a slotted amount of time that you were giving yourself? Well, I was generous with myself. It was an open-ended...

There was about an hour of open-ended time where I could just sky's the limit, you know? Okay, and then when I'm picturing you doing it, you light the candle, were you like, come on, tears, like, come on! Do it, fucking do it, Doyle! Do it! Did it, do it. Did it come naturally? Did you have to think of sad commercials? Did you really like, were you method acting or did it really come naturally?

Yeah. I mean, at that point, I think there was probably enough stored in reserve from the prior couple months that I think it was there. However, I will tell you that flash forward, many, many moons from that crying date to on yesterday, o'clock, I recently have shifted up my meds. And so I have found myself feeling this strange phenomenon of like, I feel like this is what people must feel before they think they need to cry.

And so I was having like a really, really tough time. And this is relevant to our friend, Casey. Everything felt like, you know how when you're like so full of food and there's no room, That's the feeling for me where it's like everything is so full, like up to my throat and there's no more room. Even when you're breathing, I feel like I can't take a full breath. It's just like, there's only that little part of my throat that can take the breath in because everything else is twofold. That's the way it feels to me.

So it's yesterday. I'm feeling like total shit. My therapist comes on a little late to think and I'm doing that thing where I'm praying that she had to cancel at the last minute. And I'm like, I can get out of this. This is amazing. But then she shows up and I'm like, God damn it.

And we start to talk and I'm like, in my head, this is what I'm doing, okay? I am thinking, this is a code red, I can feel it in my throat, I think I might have to cry. And so in my head, I'm going through the entire day that I have, and I'm looking through to try to find a 30 minute window where I might be able to take care of this thing that I have while I am actively trying to pretend to listen to a woman who there's an allotted hour of time

with a skilled professional to whom I'm paying hundreds of dollars to presumably do things like process my emotion. And I'm like, won't be able to do it today. Is it hard for you to cry in front of somebody else? Yes. So I'm so proud of myself. I told her that.

I'm like, right now, what I'm doing, just so you know, is trying to figure out when today I'll be able to cry. Oh, that's good. That's such a good start. I did so this relates to Casey because this is It okay, so we talked about it. I'm like it's not gonna work. You know how like if you're Having sex with someone you're like this isn't good. We're not this isn't gonna go there. We should just stop no I'm usually like this isn't going anywhere.'re not, this isn't gonna go there. We should just stop. No, I'm usually like, this isn't going anywhere. This is awful. Let's get married and do this for 20 years.

But you're like, can we, this is embarrassing for everyone. Can we just tea and just stop? This isn't gonna happen. We can pretend like we're gonna keep doing this and it's gonna happen, but it's not. This is what I felt with the therapist. I'm like, oh, we're gonna do the thing where you're gonna be like, try to get it out of me. And it's going to be so awkward for

everyone. But the, the orgasm thing is relevant truly because my therapist has talked to me about this. It is emotion is a wave. Okay. So when you're actually processing an emotion, there's all these steps. It's physiological because there's five core emotions, right? You don't really process feelings. You process these five core emotions. And if one comes up and people call it different things, but you basically, the first step is recognizing it, which is like that alone takes a lot of years, not just thinking, oh, I'm so pissed at the mail carrier for coming late.

It's like, no, you're very sad about something else, you know? So recognizing what you're feeling and then allowing the wave to come. And that's where I always was like, nope, and I jumped ship, right? Because you have to let the wave crest up and you actually have to feel the shitty, shitty, shittiness in your body and let it all come in order to ride the wave down

and finish the cycle. It's like any other physiological cycle. And so you don't get that release. You don't get that catharsis. You don't get that orgasm. You don't get that whatever the thing is if you don't let your body actually ride it all the way up or down, and you remain full like that. And so for me, that's what it feels like. It's the space making in your body that if you actually allow yourself to fully ride that up and down, you're actually not

doing anything. You're tolerating something and the tolerating of it naturally creates what you need. Like the wave crashing makes the waters stiller. That's the way it works. And so that is what processing the emotion is, but it's so petrifying because A, as we've learned that I've learned, it is so impossible for me to do that with someone else. Like I literally, in this instance,

when we were going through it, I covered my face with my else. Like I literally in this instance, when we were going through it, I covered my face with my hands. Because it's so awkward to me to have it happen that I just was like, I'm gonna need to cover my face with this. And she was like, you just do whatever you have to do. But after it, it flowed through me and there was more room.

And I think that's what it is. But the reason a lot of people don't do it is because it's actually so scary at the very top of the wave. That's where people usually stop because it's so scary. And that's where our fight or flight behaviors come from is that like fear right at the top. So you have to just keep riding it through.

Yeah. I mean, the word, it's emotion. It's motion. It's emotion is energy in motion. When you're having an emotion, it is energy stirring inside of your body. Energy stirring inside your body, whether it's a wave gathering or whatever you want to is stirring inside your body, whether it's a wave gathering or whatever you want to label it. So what we do is we tend to say, I am feeling sad or I am feeling angry. And that is because my father did this and I blah, blah, blah, blah. And so we stay in our head about it. We stay in the story. Yeah. But energy and motion is not about a story. That's why people say, Oh, you're angry. How does it feel in your body? Is it in your chest? Like when you get really still, it's a tightening in my chest. And then suddenly this magical thing

happens, which is that you've been so scared of 30 years of story that's about to pour out of you in this moment. And actually all it is, is a tightening of your chest. That is processing emotion also. When you realize, let me get out of the story of this into my body, what is actually happening? My fear, my anxiety is often in my chest. It's a feeling in my chest. My dread or depression, it's in my gut. It's in my chest. It's a feeling in my chest. My dread or depression, it's in my gut. It's in my gut.

My sadness always manifests as an overall bodily exhaustion. There is, when you start to get out of your head and into your body, you feel where the energy is. And this amazing thing happens where you can actually just physically ride the wave of the emotion without the story attached. And the physical piece is so huge of it because it's like this crazy circle, right? Because in order to ride through the emotion and create the more space in your body, you

have to recognize it, but you can't recognize it until you've gotten so skilled at feeling where it is. And it's also that what your emotions are trying to tell you is how safe and stable and secure you are or not. That's what their whole job, that's why there's only five of them. You know, that's why there's things like fear, joy, anger, sadness, disgust.

Those are the five things. Why is disgust on that list? Because it's evolutionarily, like we needed to know not to eat that fruit because we would die, because we weren't safe. So these emotions are evolved to keep us safe. So that's why when something happens that we don't understand why we're so disproportionately out of our minds about something. It isn't that that thing is that bad. It's that it touches this place in us that we've never really spent a lot of time living in that feels deeply unsafe around that thing. And then the people who are like, oh, I know what I want.

I know that that person's not good for me. I have a really highly attuned intuition and gut wisdom. It's because they've practiced this shit. Yeah, exactly. Because they can feel it at the slightest nudge, whereas it takes some of us getting run over by a car to be like, I don't think that was very good. Should have seen that coming. Yeah, because it over by a car to be like, I don't think that was very good.

Should have seen that coming. Yeah, because it's like a car. There are some cars that are so highly sensitive and those are the really expensive cars. You just touch the brakes and it stops. You just tap the whatever. A highly sensitive, highly attuned, well-practiced emotional processor doesn't need a lot of dramatic signals anymore and it stops. You just tap the whatever. A highly sensitive, highly attuned, well

practiced emotional processor doesn't need a lot of dramatic signals anymore because they feel it right away and because it is physiological, it is in your body, but it is also signaling. And I think what I want to say to Casey is, for me, processing emotions is two different things. First of all, it's the physiological riding of the wave and the not suppressing it and the not ignoring it and the stopping and the being embodied and the feeling it. People since the beginning of time have had different ways of doing this music. Okay. We lost a beloved aunt during the time where I was on tour with Tish. And she was opening for this incredible artist named Monrovia.

And he, every single night, sang a song called Damn These Forces that was about him losing his best friend. I was so busy as on the road during that time that I felt like I didn't have enough time to like, sit with what had just happened to our aunt and our family. And so I used to go out to the venue and for that set when he played Damn These Forces, I would just bawl.

Just stand there in the middle of the crowd and just cry for three songs. And I... Music. I know when I am in a not a good emotional place or disconnected or dissociated place because I won't listen to any music. Yes. Oh shit. That's so true. When I am in my body and I know I can hear and I am processing right and I can listen and I want to listen to music. I want to feel it. I want it to move through me. When I'm

in a suppressive state, I won't touch it. It's like hot coals. Music, art, movies, why are we crying? It's not about that character that we're crying. It's because it's touching an unprocessed emotion in ourselves that is the beauty and importance of art. So there's that. You go for walks by yourself.

You give your body time to let the wave rise. And then for me, there's a second part, which is for me, it's not just about the riding the wave. It's about then figuring out, why did that make me angry? It's sitting with my journal in the morning. It's taking the walk and thinking over, okay, I rode the wave, but what information was that trying to give me?

Why am I continuously angry about this, this, and this? What patterns are there that are guiding me to make a different decision in my life? For me, emotions are not good for immediate decisions. Often, it's the riding of the wave first, and then it's phase two, which is a kind of grounded reflection when I'm out of the wave. When I'm out of, yeah, when I'm out of like the fight or flight,

whatever it is that brings, the wave brings, it's then looking back and really taking time to figure out what is my body trying to tell me? Why am I disgusted by that and that and that? Why am I feeling this deep sadness about, and what can I do differently? What is my anger trying to signal that that's not good for me? I think that's kind of the sensitivity of the car too. It's like, what's the point if you're not turning the wheel based on the signals you're getting? And I think it's important, you know, I think that you two are really interesting like examples

in this because I think that Glennon, especially recently, you've been really doing quite a bit of work on processing emotions and feeling them in your body. You've lived a lot of your life head up, and you've thought through your problems a lot. And one of the most beautiful things that I've noticed that you've put in your daily life is whenever we have a discussion And one of the most beautiful things that I've noticed that you've put in your daily life is,

whenever we have a discussion about pretty much anything now, you actually say out loud, I don't know if this is something that you're doing intentionally, but it's something I'm noticing. You say, I'm feeling that in my body, and you'll feel it somewhere specific, or you'll attach an emotion to it.

And I think that that is like such a good kind of way to begin. And maybe it's like varsity level. I don't know. I'm not a psychologist, but what it actually does for me in a conversation is it actually allows me to check in with myself in my own body so that I'm not just in my head space trying to solve the problem. We and our culture and our society, there's all these nails that need to be hammered down, all these problems that need to be solved,

but so much stuff that happens in a day, we are conditioned not to even process this shit. We are conditioned to just keep moving forward, keep trucking along and giving yourself the moment or even in a conversation to just be like, oh God, I feel that in my chest or I feel that in my gut or I feel that in my heart, whatever it might be. And what I've noticed about you and whatever kind of way you're processing through this is you've become more curious and consciously curious. And I don't know how to say this without sounding weird, but like less certain.

There's an uncertainty around that. And I think that that also is part of what makes people scared about processing emotion because there is no certainty. It's like, well, I think I feel sad or I think I feel angry. And then what do I do with it? Or how do I solve the problem? Because it's a longer thing, right? It's not just about the awareness, though that that's a really great step. It's not just allowing it letting it go through you.

It's also like you said, Glenn, and trying to like capture the why of it all. And is it a story I've told myself? Am I just riling myself up over here because some sort of conditioned belief that I have had since I was four years old, how old is this emotion? Does this track way back? Is this even something that I actually still believe in my 44 year old body now? Or is this just like seven year old, I mean, I had a tantrum the other day, a literal physical in my body tantrum.

And it is a young part. It is a young part of me. And Glennon can feel it and I'm like embarrassed about it. And yeah, it can be embarrassing. Yeah, so I just, I love this question, Kasey, cause it's not one size fits all, who knows what will work best for you. We're not like therapists here,

but I just feel really proud of both of you two because I know how difficult it is for you, or it has been to just wanna actually get into the emotion of your lives and Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah. For the people, like that seems like a fucking lot, a lot of work and thinking about it and feeling it. What I think I'm figuring out is that it's a lot of work either way.

The energy that it takes to not let your emotions, to not let the wave come, you're putting your body up and trying to stop the wave from coming takes at least as much energy as it takes to actually let it happen. So you're using that energy anyway. Yes. So you might as well let it create more room in your life. I actually have no basis of reality

in what I'm about to say. But what I believe to be true is I think it's actually way more detrimental to not process emotion. And I actually- Oh, it's way more detrimental. I'm just for sure. I'm just saying the energetic output. I know, but I also think that it shortens a person's life.

I have no research or science, but if you are not processing your emotions, I believe that we are doing real harm and real damage to our physical beings. Yeah, I mean that's what the whole, when anyone says that's a defense mechanism, all that means, a simple way of understanding what that means is that is a way a person has learned to not feel their feelings. And so when you're in relationship with someone who doesn't feel their feelings, doesn't process,

you're in relation with a group of defense mechanisms. That's it. You're not in relation with the person. The person is not present. So when I am in an argument with you or a conversation and I say, okay, I know what you're talking about. I'm like, okay, I'm going to stay embodied. I'm going to stay in my body.

What I'm doing is I'm stopping myself from jumping into my mind and activating a million stories about this is what this means. This is what always happens because that's my defense mechanism is to go to my mind. And so I'm avoiding that. I am not activating story. Because when we activate story, this vicious loop happens between our emotions and our story. And we don't even know what's real anymore because our story is intensifying the wave. That's right.

The wave then is hijacked. Yep. And you actually don't have to hijack your wave with story. That's why, where do you feel it in my chest? Let's stay in our body. So then when I'm staying in my body, I am actually having a conversation with you, my wife. I am not in conversation with my own mind. You're gone. I'm not even with you when I do that. Yeah, I know. And I think that it's really, it has been maybe one of the most profound things and we've said this on

this podcast that like sometimes when we get into an argument or I am telling you that my feelings are hurt, I've never felt until recently that you actually cared. Honestly, we just had a big conversation the other night and it was, I'm not kidding. It was literally one of the first times that I actually think you cared. And I'm like an anxious attached person. So the not caring is really hard for me to not just get over, but like to be like, are we okay? Like, is it really okay? We had a big conversation and it was the first time that I was like, Oh no, I think that we're really okay. And that was huge.

That was really huge. Not that I thought we were like getting a divorce, but like I didn't have any adverse secondary questions and wonderings about what her experience was. I knew it. I could feel it. Yeah. And that's so interesting because, Glenn, you said defense mechanisms are trying to avoid our feelings. I think defense mechanisms are survival strategies.

Yeah. And a lot of people's survival strategies are don't feel your emotions. Yeah, right, right. And then you start to get to the sadness of how sad it is that your survival depended on not feeling your emotions. And so then when you can actually feel them

and bring them to your relationship, oh my God, how beautiful and redemptive is that to be able to do in your relationship? That's beautiful. So good. It's just the whole goal changes. Like I thought the goal was to work it out. The goal is to fix it.

The goal is to like make your columns, figure it out, who's right, where we're moving on from here. They used to drive Abby crazy. I'd always say, where we're moving on from here. They used to drive Abby crazy. I'd always say, where are we moving on from here? Just tell me what have we learned. And we will never come back to this thing again. We've learned.

No, I'm not talking about this again. Yeah. All right, write it down. Let's sign it. What have we decided? But like, I'm understanding now that that's not it at all. It's just like, oh, we're just supposed to be messy and like present with each other. And that's all that at all. It's just like, oh, we're just supposed to be messy and like present with each other.

And that's all that comes out of this. And it actually then isn't. But when that's the only goal, all of this magic comes out of it. So anyway, Casey, in short, find a couple processing things, music, walks, whatever it is, and then write down your noticings. I think that's what processing means. Okay, here's what we've been doing, Pod Squad.

The reason why this episode was such a great, great joy to me is because anyone who's been listening for long enough knows that I am in a process of learning that unsolicited advice is in fact criticism. Okay, so if you've listened, you know that I basically, my entire mind used to be made of a metaphorical file folders. One was for each kid, one was for each person in my family, one was for the world. I had file folders full of ideas of how everyone should live their lives and how they'd be happier and how what they should do and just waited around for people to ask me to retrieve their file.

And then of course, when no one ever did ever, not one time, I just assumed that they didn't know to ask. And so then I would just pull out their file at any given time. And lovingly or so I thought. But it turns out this is not the most connective strategy for relations. So I am working on it in my various ways, one being 12-step meetings. It's a good time. But I have found a loophole and that is that, so as Megan Fowley says, I am allowed to be a source of water. I am like a pond, a lake in the wilderness.

If people come to the pond for water, I am allowed to give them water. What I am not allowed to do is chase them down with buckets of water. I'm not allowed to, I have to stay in the source of the lake. But Pod Squad, that means if you want to come visit my lake, if you have a problem, a challenge, if you're stuck somewhere in your life,

in your relationship, in your relationship, in your family, in your work, if you have a big problem that you want some advice about, if you have a little problem, like you don't know what to name your dog, or you don't know what sofa to pick, or something that's light. If you bring it to me, I am allowed to respond to you. And I will. If you write me an email, okay, if you write to the pod squad, if you write to the podcast at wcdhtpod.gmail.com and you write me your problem with the subject line, solicited advice, not unsolicited, solicited advice.

Do you have to show these receipts to your 12 step progress so they know, look, it says solicited right here. Oh no, I didn't run this by anyone in my 12 step program. They would not be allowing me to do this. I hope they write it. Yeah, yeah. That's good.

So write an email, then I can read it. Think about your problem, and then give you some advice on the pod. Or if you're more of a talker than a writer, you can call in the number 747-200-5307 and please only one minute, y'all. You can only leave a message that is one minute long or we can't use it. And you have to use the word advice in it. So we know that it's for this purpose, okay?

I just think this would be great fun. Maybe we'll bring one of these horses with their water. I feel like that pond thing was irresistible. With their thirst. With their thirst. Maybe they could come on the podcast. I want the Podsquatters to be people that we talk to like they're our guests.

Okay, the IRL. In real life, I want this. Oh, that would be so sweet. I want this so bad. You guys, nobody cares that I played soccer anymore. The deal is I'm a podcaster now and I need a little bit of like, I don't know. What you're hearing is Abby's sick of us.

Yes. No one recognizes her anymore. She's sick of us. Yes. No one recognizes her anymore. She's sick of talking to us. Just help a sister out. Help us, help you, help us. Do you want to come on the pod? Is what we're asking. Okay, I love that idea.

Does the pod squatters want to come on the pod? But you have to have a problem or else yeah, they won't let you on. That's right. That's right. Or I think it would be kind of cool if one of the pod squatters wanted to come on and talk about an episode that changed their life in some way.

That they've like put into practice some things that we've been talking about. I mean, my goodness, my shadow side. Anybody else working on their shadow side? I would like some freaking pod squatters who are on my side here. We could talk about it. It's like Liz Gilbert's Eat, Pray, Love made me do it, but We Can Do Hard Things made me do it. It's like Liz Gilbert's Eat, Pray, Love, Made Me Do It, but we can do hard things made me do it. Yes. Oh yeah. And Liz won't care if we steal it from her because she's our bestie. So let's just steal it from Liz. Let's just actually call it Eat, Pray, Love, Made Me Do It. Welcome to the new podcast called Eat, Pray, Love, Made Me Do It with Glennon Doyle, the never ever was a soccer player, Abby Wambach. Okay, so we're gonna end here, but I'm just gonna say then in some, let's process this. If you have a problem you want me to help you solve or any combination of us to

help you solve, you're gonna write to us an email with the subject line, solicited advice. Okay? And I actually love your idea. If you are someone who one of these episodes made you think about something differently, try something differently, do something different in a relationship or in work, or there's some episode that sparked something cool that you wanna tell us about, and maybe even come on the pod to talk about.

Yes. Okay. Let's do an email for that too. And the subject can be made me do it. Made me do it. Made me do it. Okay. You guys, I'm feeling an emotion of joy. And I'm feeling an emotion of joy.

Big joy. In my body. All right, Pod Squad. We love you so much. And we will see you next time. And we will see you in the inbox. And on the voicemails. Alright, bye.

Bye! If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach

and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.