We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Are You A Cool or Warm Person + What Does That Mean?

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

Glennon, Abby and Amanda *attempt* to do a ‘fun’ rapid fire but find themselves in deep discussion about setting boundaries, self regulation, and how to find your unique marrow of life.  Discover:  -How to know if you are a warm person, cool person or a combo of both.  -Which type of person Glennon, Abby, and Amanda each see themselves as; and -What you might need to do if you identify as a people pleaser. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Hey everybody. Hi. So here. Hi. What are we doing? What are we doing? Well, every time we try to lighten things up, it never works.

You guys are the worst. You two are the absolute worst We are the worst. I know are the worst, but here's the thing I don't know why I can't be lighter like I think I'm funny I'm funny person. Yes. Yeah, so how come Every time I start talking I end up talking about trauma and death. Like what? I know, the problem is, is like, we're, okay. So Pod Squad, we're trying to do some Q&A, like rapid fire Q&A's just right now.

Like to lighten it up. Like, Glennon's gonna say the question and we've just been sitting here looking at it and she just, she feels stumped because these questions aren't meaningful. Well, no, no, no. Okay, here's- Really? It's because I'm making them too meaningful.

Like, OK, pod squad. The first question is, what are you binging or streaming on the TV right now? OK, so that seems like a simple question, except I don't want to answer that because, first of all, we're actually watching a show that I don't love right now. But I don't want to answer that because first of all, we're actually watching a show that I don't love right now. But I don't want to say that.

I don't want to say I don't love a show. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I don't want to start beef with a bunch of actors I don't even know trying to do the best they can with the writing that did the best they could. But also you have very, very, very high standards of which things we watch. I have one wild and precious life. Yeah. I'm not wasting it on bad art.

But I also then reminded you of another show that you're binging right now that you love. All capital letters. I do. But like even that show makes me nervous to say because everyone has so many opinions about everything. And I feel like when I reveal something that I like, it says something about who I am, that makes me scared. But I will tell you that right now, I am watching for the third time, all the way through the show, Girls.

People are allowed to have opinions. I fucking love that show. I know. I love watching Hannah Horvath. She's one of my favorite characters of all time. I love Jessa and Marnie and Shoshana and they are all a freaking mess. And I just, I love it.

Okay, but can we just go back to the thing that you said right before the girls? Yeah. That like, whatever you say will be an indictment on who you are. Really? Yes. Just step into fucking all of that. And if people have feelings on shit that you like, they can go right on and fuck all the way off. Okay.

Like for real, because this is your life. You get to appreciate and love and enjoy whatever you want. Thank you, babe. I don't understand. Like it makes me crazy thinking that you have to worry about what other people think. I know you are amazing because you are a very embodied person

and I am working on that. You're doing so good. I am working on thinking through my life and what I want to do only from my own brain. And not looking at myself from trying, which is an impossible task, to look at myself through a million other eyes and brains and shape shift to become whatever it is

I think other people will approve of. Yeah, love what you love. This is the work of my life and I'm doing it now. It is interesting to discover to save one's life, one needs to become embodied and think more about their own experience than other people's experiences of them. After that person has accidentally built an entire career on exposing themselves to other

people and what other people will think of them. So it's like suddenly becoming a vegan after you have created a meat packing empire, okay? I'm not saying it can't be done. I will find a way to do it, but that's how I'm experiencing my soul work right now compared to my world work. Is that they are sometimes really hard to do

at the same time. Sister, what are you binging on streaming right now? I was going to ask you if I could ask some rapid fire questions. Yes. Just to keep this going. Okay. Abby, what color brings you the most joy?

Green. Glennon. Blue. Yellow for me. What's your favorite place on earth, Abby? The Thousand Islands in Canada. My couch with my family. Only particular members of my family.

I was like, oh. I just pictured it. I just pictured it got a little crowded. Particular members of my family who will not be named. I think Connecticut with my family in the summer. Abby, we know you don't have a tattoo and would never get one, but if you had to, what would it be?

That's the problem why I never got a tattoo is because I never could think of something I would want on my body forever. Right, but if you had to have something on your body forever, what would it be? I thought of this when I was younger and I'm so glad that I decided not to, but I thought north, south, east, west,

like the thing on like a compass. Or that thing, okay. Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous. I'm so glad, I love myself. Glennon, what do you value most in others? Maybe softness. Oh, wow. I would not have said that.

I would not have guessed that. You wouldn't have said that for her? It could just be right now. I would not have guessed that. I know, it also annoys me, softness, so I don't know. But I do, you know, it's like- You value it both negatively and positively. It's a push pull.

Honesty too, soft honesty. For me, authenticity. What does that mean to you? It means being who you are. Not acting, okay. For me, it's help. Help. I value people who can help me.

Cool. What does cool mean to you, Abby? It's gonna sound so basic, but like people who are themselves are very, very cool. I don't like the word cool. I have bad feelings about the word cool. I feel like cool means detached, distant, acting, like not vulnerable, separate, aloof. I've always wanted to be cool, but I have surrendered to being sweaty and hot and warm. Oh my God, that just reminded me.

Okay, so Alice, like six months ago, was talking for the first time, so she's in fourth grade, for the first time, she's noticing that there are like cool kids and not cool kids. Or cool kids and everyone else. I don't think she thinks they're not cool kids. I think she's just seeing,

oh, there's some cool kids around here. So she was talking to me and she seems totally detached from the whole thing. She's just reporting it as fact. And she's like, so there's some cool kids. And I'm like, awesome, great. And I said, like, what does that mean? And like, are you a cool kid?

And she goes, no, no, no, I'm not cool. I am warm. Yes, Alice. Oh, yes. I have never thought about warm being the opposite of cool. Of course it is. And that's what it is, right?

Cause warm is so vulnerable. You have to be like open to people. And like, here I am ready to receive you and be friends with you and not to disparage anyone cool, but by definition, they sure as shit can't be warm. That's right. That's right. That's interesting. I've never thought of that.

Well, we have talked about it in our family because we spent a lot of time defining people, which is awful, by whether they were cool, cool, warm, cool, cool, warm, or warm, warm, meaning this. No, do you remember this? You mean people just around? Yes, and everyone in our family. Just vibes, what your vibes are.

So there are people who are cool on the outside, but really warm on the inside. Like those are people that you wouldn't like approach right away because you feel like they have an iron kind of exterior. Yeah, but then you discover when you get closer to them that their insides are just like gooey and mushy and whatever.

There are some people who act gooey and gooey and like their outsides are warm and then you get close and you're like fuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. And I don't know that it's necessarily bad and good. I don't think that's true. It's just a way of being. Preference. Yeah.

And then there are people who are Cold, cold. Cold, cold. Cool, cool. So like, do you remember what we decided everybody was? Cause this actually changes. What do you think you are? Warm, warm. You think you're warm, warm?

Mm-hmm. I think you're cool, warm. Abby's cool, warm? But- My exterior is stronger. Well, I just think it's like impossible to say you're not cool. I don't know anymore.

Like, I know what you're saying, that her look is cool. Yeah. But her energy is not cool. Her energy is the most approachable thing in the world. Yeah. So I think her costume is cool. Her wrapping paper, but like her energy is cool, is warm. And then her insights are warm.

What would you say you are? I don't know. I'm a great mystery to myself. What do you experience? If you could guess. I don't know. Just try. Okay. My guess is that my mask,

my acting self is warm, warm. Maybe my truest self is a little cooler and then cool again. But not cool in like, I have a lot of defenses. I think I have a lot of defenses. I think I've told the story on the podcast before that I had a problem with another mom early on in school. Our kids were struggling and she,

and I didn't know that they were struggling and she had known that they were struggling for a long time. And so when I found out, I said, why didn't you tell me? And she said, because you are unapproachable. And that hurt my feelings so much. And I actually called Liz that night

and was very upset because I don't have a good grasp on how I'm perceived in the world. So that felt like such an indictment that I have been doing it all wrong and that. And I said to Liz, she's calling me unapproachable. And then Liz said, I don't understand what the problem is. Do you wanna be approached? And I was like, no.

And actually not. She's probably right. Like when I would go to school with the kids, it reminds me of the story you told about Alice at the race. I was very, I wasn't there to socialize. Like I didn't, I didn't want to do the social scene at school, I just didn't. When I was there, I wanted to be there for my kid.

I wanted to get credit from my kid for showing up. I wanted my kid to have all my attention so that I would get all the mom credit. Really make it count. So I probably was sending out vibes that were like, I'm here for one reason and not to chat. I don't know. What do you think?

And so what did Liz say to you? She said, good job. You didn't wanna be approachable and you were told you were unapproachable. Well done. What did Liz say to you? She said, good job. You didn't wanna be approachable and you were told you were unapproachable. Well done. So I don't know. Yeah, I think that you outside of this house are cool cool.

Okay. And I think inside this house, you are warm, warm. Oh, okay, that's fine. That is how I wanna be. That is how you wanna be. Warm, warm. Okay, that's fine. That is how I want to be. That is how you want to be. Good job. Yep. What about you?

What about you, Sissy? What do you think you are? I think I'm warm, cool, warm. Time to tell us more. That's three layers. I know, I get it. I get it. That's what I am.

I get it, but go ahead. Yeah. I think I'm like, I'm so warm, I get it. That's what I am. I get it, but go ahead. Yeah. I think I'm like, yay, I'm so warm, I'm so warm, I'm so warm. And I wanna be that, but then you get a little layered and I'm like, whoa, bucko, that's a bridge too far. Take a one full step back.

Exactly. And then through that layer in the inner sanctum is warm again. Yeah. So you just gotta ride it out for like, you gotta like, to get into that inner sanctum of warm, you gotta really trudge through that coolness. You gotta really ride through that stampede

and I'm, and near a few get through. Has anybody, except your children, has, and your children, and John, obviously. But like, we actually were talking about this yesterday. What was I saying? I asked you if you're good at making, if you felt like you were good at connecting with people deeply.

Yeah, and I said, I think when I want to connect with someone and I feel, I think when I want to connect with someone and I feel like they are a safe, interesting, like, match, then I think I am good at it. But I don't try to be good at it as often as maybe other people do. I don't wanna do it all the time. It's very tiring to me. And it's important.

It doesn't feel like something that you should just be going around doing all the time. It feels wise to be very selective about that. Yes. Speaking of boundaries. Are you good at opening your front door? I am good at opening my front door when I have invited someone over.

Yes. Right? When it's deliberate and intentional and I feel safe and good about it. That's when I open the door. That's very good. Do you want to hear from Anna? I want to hear from Anna.

That's exactly what I woke up thinking this morning. Hello, my name is Anna. I wanted to call first to thank you for sharing your personal experiences. Your stories bring these topics to life in ways that help me look at my own past and see important patterns I did not yet know how to name. I am several months into a burnout and do spratical,

and thanks to you, I can now say that I am in the desert and without my puzzles, so thank you. My question is related to your episode on self-regulating and healing relationships, which had me crying on the train as I recognize so many things you described. I am curious to hear your thoughts on how to balance regulating oneself and establishing boundaries. Two things that I understand are my responsibility When is it reasonable to decide that I just don't have the energy to maintain certain relationships? Again, thank you so much and I look forward to future episodes. This is like varsity level shit because

Don't you think it's like once you get through the first level of figuring stuff out then you're at the second level it's that Anis quote or how do you say in the name of like the nice nameasin. Yeah, Anayasin of you don't see the world as it is, you see it as you are, you don't see people as they are, you see people as you are. So that is true. So you get to this place where you're like, okay, she's talking about her relationships,

like when does she decide if she doesn't have the energy to maintain certain relationships? You can get into a real cyclical abyss, because if you're like, okay, I'm in this relationship, I don't like the energy of this relationship. Then you start thinking, okay, but I'm in this relationship and I'm seeing this other person in this relationship and I'm seeing the entire relationship as I am. So is there a different thing that I could be bringing to this that would change this

whole thing? And you can get super into trying to do that to the detriment of something else that is equally important, which is not denying the feelings of your body and the knowings of your body that like are saying no to this. So when your body is saying no to this, is it saying no to this. So when your body is saying no to this, is it saying no to this because of the way

that you're seeing this thing, which you need to be sure you can rely on? Or is it saying no to this because in fact no to this? So this is this, when she's talking about regulating, that's what I think, regulating like I am grounded in knowing that I am seeing this clearly without the neuroses that I'm going to take into every next friendship.

Because if you're taking the next everything into every relationship that you're in, which you are, then you wanna make sure the person that's showing up in that relationship, who is you, is seeing things with clarity and with health and with a regulated nervous system. Right. We all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks

and maybe even bad years. But the good news is we don't have to figure out life all alone. I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of TED's How to Be a Better Human podcast. And our show is about the little ways that you can improve your life, actual practical tips that you can put into place that will make your day to day better. Whether it is setting boundaries at work, or rethinking how you clean your house, each episode has conversations with experts who share tips on how to navigate life's ups and downs. Find how to be a better human wherever you're listening to this.

I just have a question because I feel a little confused by this only that like what is the relationship she's trying to make between regulating oneself and establishing boundaries do you think? Oh I get it completely because. Can you explain that? All right let's take it to what is regulating? We're all just trying to feel better. We're all just trying to feel a bit of peace, a bit of calm,

a bit of joy. We would like homeostasis. Yes. Regulation, to me, means there is a state of being that is not a trauma response. OK. OK? I'm told.

Apparently. I believe it. I've had glimpses. Okay. Now. There's also several planets in the solar system. That's right. Right. Never seen them.

This thing exists. Um, mermaids, unicorns, and regulated nervous systems. Okay. There is a state of being that is more peaceful, more joyful, more loving. It's clarity. It's the dream, okay? What I have learned is that when we don't know how to do that for ourselves, we use other people. To me, what she's saying is, how do I know

if I'm creating boundaries based on my regulated, real, clear self? Or I'm just using these other people to regulate myself. Wow. So for example, people pleasing, we all think, people actually claim people. I think that people put claim being people pleasers in a way that's almost

heroic, valorous. Like I just like making people happy. But what people pleasing is at the end is it's using other people to get off. Okay, that it is. To regulate you mean? Yeah, or to get the dopamine or to get the hit. It's other people's approval of me is a drug that it is. To regulate, you mean? Yeah, or to get the dopamine or to get the hit. It's other people's approval of me is a drug that I need.

And so I am using you to get what I need and your approval of me to feed my addiction. That brings you- Which is not actually what I need, but it's the thing I think I need more than the thing I actually need. Yeah. And you're using other people's and like the kindness

of yourself as a shield. Yes. There's no real connection in it. There's no love. There's no whatever. It's actually like, you might as well be a bottle of pills. Yeah, sometimes, but yeah. Well, no, if it's people pleasing, that's what it is. I know, but I am a people pleaser and I've talked about

this with my therapist a lot. I'm for sure a people pleaser and I've talked about this with my therapist a lot. I'm for sure people pleaser and I'm for sure I use it in a addictive way at times. But there's also another part of me that is really truly like the caretaking isn't about me. And so I think both can be true at the same time. Yeah, I guess for me, I would say that part of you that is so beautiful, that it wants to serve,

that wants to care, that cares about community and other people, that's separate for me than people pleasing. To me, people pleasing. If it's coming from a genuine place, it by definition is not people pleasing. Yeah, because your end is not to people please. Your end is to honor the part of you

that values the serving. Yeah, it's like confusing people pleasing with caretaking. So they're very close, they're abutted next to each other. Totally. So when everyone's talking about these days, the regulation of the nervous system, I think it can be tricky because we all want healing and wellness to be this individual project

that we can do by ourselves in our house and be set. That is the lie of wellness, that we can just get a few tricks up our sleeve, get a few machines, get a few, a diet or whatever. Shockingly, all these things cost money and people benefit from them. But like that wellness is this individual purification process that we can do on our own,

which of course whiteness is all tied up into and power. And the fact that if we do it that way, that's convenient for status quo, because there is no collective liberation in that. We can achieve wellness and never talk to another human being, never leave our house, never enter the struggle of collective liberation in any way.

Quite convenient. Plus, corporations can make all the money off of that version of wellness. What I have found in my own life, which is all I can say, is that there is like this weird symbiotic chicken and an egg situation here that you cannot separate. That my own body, in my own breathing, in my own work in therapy to get to a state where I can see people and things more clearly. So that I know, like with what Anna's saying, if I feel like I don't have the energy to maintain certain relationships, is that because of the relationship?

Is that because of the other person? Is that because of me relationships? Is that because of the relationship? Is that because of the other person? Is that because of me? Doesn't matter. Signal that I have some work to do and some stuff to figure out. What I want to do every day is every time I have a problem with another person, I wanna go in, I wanna work it out,

I wanna say all the words, I wanna go, go, go, go, go. This has not worked well for me. This has stopped working for me. What usually is the case for me lately is that the problem might be the same. Like it might be the case that this relationship doesn't work for me.

It might be the case that, but it keeps being that if I resist the urge to say all the things right away and instead sit with it, regulate myself, it usually becomes clear that it's not, it's often not a conversation that I need to have, it's just a little tweak in how I'm approaching that relationship. I don't know how to explain it other than that. That it's that my side of the street thing back again and again and again.

It's the Al-Anon work. I mean, that's all of what that is, is what she's saying, is it you, is it me, does it matter, all that. That every time we get a signal that somebody else is fucking us up, it's a signal that we have some work to do to become less fuck with-able. To give away our power so easily.

Yeah, it's like that Alan on idea of like, I got some stuff to work out with that person and it's probably not with that person. Like it's probably something that I have to work on internally or so the best. Is that different than emotional divestment? Because what I hear, that everything you're saying makes perfect sense to me.

And I also know that one of my struggles with intimacy is that once there is an issue, I'm like a little squirrel that like runs and gets the issue and picks up the acorn and runs away and like stares at the acorn and studies the acorn and figures out what the issue is and whatever. And then like, it's mine.

I work it out with myself and potentially we'll come back and like come back and be like present the acorn to the other person and be like, well, we had a situation, here's it is, I'm explaining to you, let me show you the acorn, that's the thing, instead of working it out with the person, which allows it to be an actual live relationship, working, talking about the thing. So like, both of us are avoiding vulnerability then. So like, just in opposite ways. Like you're like, I don't wanna be vulnerable

with this person in the moment. So I'm gonna go and solve this shit and then come back to you. Energetically, I will not involve you in solving this problem with you. Yeah, I'm in a relationship with myself presenting to you the relationship. Yes, and I'm like coming in guns blazing saying,

and by the way, the guns blazing could be just all love and concern. It's not like I'm fighting. But I'm coming in like, let's do this. Let's figure this out. That is still avoiding vulnerability, because there's no moment of like, wait, I just feel a little uncomfortable.

And I'm trying to figure out what's going on here. Do you feel like something's going on here? It's like inviting someone into a journey you need to take together in a vulnerable way. Only people, people can only do that if they are regulated themselves. Vulnerability, which everyone talks about all the time, has been construed to mean this thing

where you just show up like all bloody and gutsy and like say whatever the fuck you want and brutal honesty and all of that. But I think to be truly vulnerable, you have to be so steady and centered in yourself. You have to enter a conversation and be strong enough to know that whatever happens in that conversation is not gonna destroy you because you've got you.

And that you don't have control over what happens. And you don't have to have control. With Sister specifically, I think she wants to gain control and understanding before going back and presenting her case to whomever. You, when you go into a situation guns and blazing, you already have the outcome. You've already figured it out from the beginning to the end.

Right. So do I. That's the point of taking the acorn away and studying it so to come back and present it. Exactly. It's the same thing. So I think underneath this vulnerability thing is this real fear of losing control. Yeah, so Liz always says to me,

I wanna talk about this thing and I have no cherished outcome. I think there's something to that. It's like, if you're in struggle with somebody, then by definition, you must admit that it's not just about you. That somebody else gets to bring their full self and their agenda and their whatever.

And if you are both surrendered to the ending being something that you have not even thought of yet, because that's the only possible outcome. If you're both bringing two vulnerable different ideas, you are gonna end up with something if you're doing it right that you couldn't even dream of on your own. But it's surrendering to a process and to me that's what embodiment is.

It's like something happens and being like, okay, wait, can we just slow this down because I feel like energetically something's weird and I feel uncomfortable and can we just talk about it? It's like so in the moment, which I am starting to be able to do. And what I would say is that it's some kind of fucking magic trick.

It is some kind of effing magic trick. And Alex, my dear friend, Alex Haddison has been trying to tell me about this magic trick forever. She's been trying to teach me what vulnerability actually is. And it is not just showing up and saying all of your sad feelings. It's an in body experience of I am available for whatever you need to bring to me.

I can handle it. And we can figure this out moment to moment. And also I'm going to deliver moment to moment in real time what's happening inside of me. Yeah. So, but it's, there's no, the point for Anna for me is there's no answer to, do I get my shit together and then establish my boundaries or do I establish my boundaries

so I can get my shit together? There's no clear that. It's like pain happens in relationship. Brokenness happens in relationship. So healing tragically must happen also in relationship. But there's this individual work that we can do that allows us to enter, that makes us strong enough and centered enough

to enter into these relational conflicts in a new fresh way that result in new fresh results. Yeah. And maybe it's one of the clues that you are doing both of those, because she said, which I understand are my responsibility. Both of those things are my responsibility, the regulating, getting balanced in her regulation of herself and establishing boundaries. And so maybe the way to know that you are taking responsibility for that, both of those things in the relationship

is if you are not, when you're really honest with yourself, you are not going to the other person saying like, save me, save me, save me. going to the other person saying like, save me, save me, save me. Whether that's like, I'm really upset, we need to talk about this now. Because then you're using that other person to make yourself un-upset. That's right, that's right.

Or you have to talk to me right now because I know I'm feeling off and the only thing that's gonna help me not feel off is to speak with you about it. That by definition, you're not doing your responsibility. And the reverse, if someone is coming to you with that frantic panicked energy of using you to bring themselves down to a regulated place,

then they're not taking their responsibility either. It's just a bunch of people using each other to regulate themselves, and that is what we must not do. If we want to have real relationship. I just wanna give you a quick example in my real life of something I noticed that, it's a simple example of this, but our youngest plays soccer and she,

I get anxious about her on the field because she is now playing against all these big people. And anyway, this stuff happens and she falls and sometimes they're faking it in soccer. It's just like a lot to understand as a mama on the sidelines and when I'm supposed to be upset, sometimes she's like actually calling for help from the field, but really it's just this,

I don't even know what it is, but I don't know when I'm supposed to be upset, when I'm supposed to be worried. And my nervous system doesn't know for sure. You know, like look after her, look after her, don't look after her, don't look after her. It's the credit card machine again. So we were sitting at the table and we were talking about

the fact that when Abby used to get hurt on the field, she would have a little signal to her mom when she'd sneak it at the bottom. Like she'd be laying down on the field, acting like she was about to die. But then she'd put up her thumb a little bit so her mom could see this secret thumb thing that was like, it's okay mom, I'm cool.

And. That I'm not hurt, I'm just laying here for extra long, A, to catch my breath, and B, to maybe like, gain some favor with the referee, maybe this foul, maybe they'll give that other player a yellow card or something. It's all gamesmanship stuff that happens in the soccer field.

So gamesmanship means lying. No, it does not. It's just like playing. It's pursuing your highest, what is it? Pursuing your highest advantage. Okay, all right, so lying. So, so I was saying to Emma, I've caught myself saying, so maybe let's have a signal for me.

And then I realized Amanda's job on the soccer field is to play the best game of soccer she can with her full self. Amanda's job is not nor has it ever been to regulate her mother's nervous system. That is my work. This is a very simple example of me, I was using my daughter in the middle of your thing. Can you also add this other thing that will help my nervous system calm down? That is not her work, right? When parents cannot regulate, do not know how to regulate,

do not know all the things that they need to do, which by the way, it is not just breathing and doing your vagal nerve shit, which you should do and help. Vegas. Whatever it is, your Vegas nerve, is that what it is? It feels not right, because like Vegas. I feel like it's like,

vagal, V-G-U-S. Vegas, Vegas? I think it's vagal. It's the Vegas nerve. Okay. But maybe I'm wrong, could be Vagel, I guess. The point being, it's also about knowing yourself. It's also about the self.

Vegas, F-A-J-U-S. Vegas, what happens in the Vegas nerve? Stays in the Vegas nerve. It affects everybody, okay? What happens in the Vegas nerve stays in the Vegas nerve. It's about a lot of things. It's about doing your work, knowing yourself, knowing when you're putting your shit on other people,

et cetera, et cetera. But the point is that it gets dangerous to create a life when we are using other human beings to regulate our nervous systems. And it is parents' job to do what they need to do, to take care of their own nervous systems and reactions so that they are not using their children to make them less anxious, less angry, less whatever.

That feels like the first thing we should be taught as parents. That feels like the first thing we should be taught as parents, right? It should be the first thing we're taught as parents, that it is not those children's responsibility to make you feel better. Let's hear from Brandy. Hi, my name is Brandy, and my many questions slash comment

regarding the recent podcast regarding the busyness and I relate a lot to Amanda and how she's worked through this. And I think there was brought up the idea of what is, what are we also afraid of. But I didn't hear discussed and I guess for me is such a motivating factor for the busyness and Also, I work in the Hospice and Palliative Medicine field and with people at End of Life and It has it's a beautiful job and it has left me with some fears of not living my life fully and I think there's also this piece of how do we incorporate rest, relaxation, enjoyment as fulfillment as opposed to just those

big those big life events that we hear about at end of life. So I'd love to hear that discussed or hear your thoughts on that. Thank you so much for all you do, bye. I love this. Do you think what Brandi is saying is on one side of things, we wanna live the biggest life we can

with the most rich experiences and we wanna like go for what's the biggest, most adventuresome life so we won't have regrets. And how do we incorporate the idea of rest and relaxation as something that is not at the detriment of having a big life, but is part of it. Yeah, I guess it's just like, there's a lot of pre-framing even in that question. It's like, what does a big life mean and who has taught us that?

And why is rest, relaxation, joy and pleasure something that is in contrast to whatever that big life is? Like it makes me suspicious that what we have been sold is a big life, a big important life has to do with climbing a ladder, being visible, being famous, being well known, being important. And then that feels suspicious to me because that's exactly the story I would tell if I were trying to create a capitalistic culture. That like, if I show you the big prize is this thing, then you will think that's what a big life is.

It's just funny that that is the goal. Like if we don't think it through intentionally, then we just soak up the culture's idea. And so of course we would think that. It's really confusing when you start to be meeting all of those people that's really confusing when you start to be meeting all of those people and you realize that, I would say that this is maybe controversial, I don't know,

but like, Abby and I talk a lot about how sometimes it feels to me like the more outwardly successful a person is, the less happy they are. And like, I really have experienced that. Over and over and over and over again. Is it because what actually constitutes a big life, meaning joyful satisfaction, I guess, contentedness, full satisfaction, I guess, contentedness.

We're told over and over again by anyone who studies it that it's not this thing we think it is, that it's relationships, it's rest, it's relaxation, it's the joy in the little things, it's whatever. That perhaps if we switched them, if we made the big part of our life, these other things, the little things, the relationships, the enoughness, the walks with our dogs, the things that we can actually remember bringing us joy, that maybe, I mean, truly that's what I have the biggest FOMO about. Yeah, for sure. That is the only FOMO I have is like in trying to get this other thing that was never actually

going to make me happy. Did I miss the thing that was right in front of my face, which is what everyone who's ever studied joy or happiness tries to tell us, right? That it's not the mountaintop moments that we're told. It's the like everyday, delicious, accessible. Yeah, I also just think that it depends on how you're framing it. Like to me, when you make me a coffee

and you hand it to me in the morning, that feels like a mount mountain top moment for me. And it's bringing into focus and appreciation of the stuff that actually matters to you. And I think that what Brandy is trying to talk about too is through the lens of the end of life in mind. And I think that it's easy to get busy when life is busy and things are happening.

But trying to define what are the things that are the most important, that bring you the most fulfillment and contentment. Like for me, it gives me such a rush to like cross off something off of my bucket list every year to do. Like whether it's like traveled to, I don't know where, with my family or do some sort of challenge, I don't know.

Like to me, that's, even though it feels like I'm being sold a bill of goods, like I do like accomplishing things so that when I do get to the end of my life, I will be able to say I had both. I don't think that it's wrong to be in search of adventure and you know. It's just knowing yourself.

I think the dichotomy here is like Brandy, which makes total sense in terms of our conditioning. She's like, do I suck the marrow out of life and have the greatest experiences or do I allow myself to rest? And where can I find the balance? And it's like, no, you suck the marrow out of life, done. The question is, what is the marrow of life to you?

That's right. Yes. And no one wants you to compromise on sucking the marrow out of life, but sucking the marrow out of life can look like spending most of your time on the beach with a book by yourself. Or it can look like being in conversation with your kids.

Or it can look like bungee jumping off of every bridge in the universe. Like what is your marrow? And that is why it's not easy. I used to have the Hunter Thompson quote where he says, "'Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body,

but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride. Yes. Written like a true drug addict trying to justify their... But I used to think like, and I was like, yes, that is correct. That is correct. And then I was like, do I have to dispose of that way of thinking

because I'm not trying to sprint up the mountains? No. What about sucking the marrow out of life? What is relationship other than being thoroughly used up, totally worn out and saying, wow, what a ride? Like it's not either or, that is about the marrow. And we just have a very narrow branding of what is adventure and what is the marrow of life.

And I don't think we have to accept that. I think we can be pretty banged up and used up and thrilled and having really fulfilled our adventure in a lot of different paths of life. It's good. Amen. What is your marrow? That is so good.

Yes, we all agree, Emerson, Thoreau, I think it was Thoreau. We should suck the marrow. If we don't think hard, and maybe it's not even thinking, if we don't notice what actually brings us joy, then we will default to what the culture tells us will. The culture will tell us the marrow is achieve, achieve,

achieve, climb, climb, climb, be visible, blah, blah, blah, blah, hustle. But what I suspect is that when most of us actually notice what brings us joy, it won't be that. It might be for some, but I, in similar vein, and we've mentioned this before, I think of it every day. What is your marrow is very similar to what we say over and over again to people.

The Mary Oliver quote, what is it that you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? And that is used to make people feel shame that they aren't doing enough with their life. But what Jessica Kantrowitz wrote a poem about, and I think about all the time is that actually if you read that full poem, what Mary Oliver was saying is because I only have this one wild and precious life,

I will sit on this grass all afternoon and watch this one grasshopper eat this blade of grass. Yes. Because I have only one wild and precious life. Because I am so determined to suck the marrow out of life, I will sit here and watch this fucking miracle that no one is taking the time to watch. And because her personally, like when you read her work

over and over again, you understand that what brought her, what her marrow was, was being alone in nature. And then working things out with her partner, which is relating the two. Solitude, nature, my partner, like art, right? So she, her marrow, because I have only one wild and precious life, I will do what looks to the world like nothing, because life is too important

to do something different than nothing. I think we've got a really good idea for another tripod podcast and to really think about and discuss what is our own individual marrow. Yeah. I think that's the work of life, you know? It's like, and comes back to embodiment. If you don't, if you're not in your body

and you don't know what brings you joy how the fuck Can you figure out what your marrow is? Could you off the top of your head like ring off five things that are in your marrow? yes, I've talked to my therapist about this so much because I Have this idea in my mind that I am supposed to want and go to and do these things that look like fancy, that look like achievement, that look like making it out in the world. Okay? And what I try to explain to her is there's a part of me that is hungry for that. Okay? So when I see it, I'm like, oh God, I should be doing that. I should go to that friggin awards.

I should go to that banquet. I should be in that room. I should want that show. I should whatever. And I'm hungry for something there, I think. And then if I go, it's like I sit down and notice that all of the food being served is like that plastic food that they show on advertisements. Like, it's like I'm hungry for something,

but whatever it is, is not there. It's a version of it that makes us, for me, maybe it feeds some other people, maybe it really does. And I'm not judging that life in general. What is true for me, even if I should want those things, even if I'm lucky to be there, even if other people would want those things, is that I am happier just in my house on my couch any day of the week. The things that are supposed to be big, big joys never bring me as much joy as the things that are little, little joys.

And that is just the truth of things. But like, there's still that moment where I have to say, no thank you, I just would rather be on my couch. I've learned that I don't have to say that second part. And then giving up a thing that other people are supposed to want is what Brandi is saying, because she's saying, how do you deal with the fear of missing out?

And I still have that FOMO, but what I remind myself is what I'm missing out on is something that maybe feeds other people, but doesn't feed me. So I'm more scared of missing out on the thing that I know that feeds me, even if it looks weird to other people. Amazing. I'm impressed by all of you. Just so the Pod Squad knows, when we go into these Q and A's, we have like five, sometimes six cues

that the Pod Squad has sent in. We only ever get to two. Only ever. And I just think you guys are very good talkers. Very smart. Aw, babe. I think you're a very good talker. I don't know.

I don't know about all the shoulds of the world, but I just am so grateful to be able to do this with y'all. Same-sies. Same-sies. Pod Squad, thank you for creating a place where we can stay on our couch, still be connected with you, and share our low, so many thoughts.

We love you. We'll see you back here next time. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend We would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much We can do hard things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.