We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Are you a Feeler or a Thinker? Either Way, Genius!

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

1. An Advocate, Commander, and Entertainer walk into a podcast – and each share how they feel about their labels. 2. Do personality types make you feel boxed in, or give you permission to be you?  3. How to decide when it’s important to work first and play later, or jump on a moment of joy and work later. 4. How Glennon as a strong F (Feeler) and Amanda as a strong T (Thinker) make business decisions together. 5. Can a personality be changed? To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We Can Do Hard Things. We can do hard things. Where our true intention is really just to make life a little less hard

and try to figure out the mystery of ourselves in each other. Just smidge more. Let's jump right back into our personalities, Conville. The third grouping is thinking and feeling. Okay, the risk of being Charlie Brown, thinkers step back and apply in personal analysis to problem solve. They value logic, justice, fairness. They are the correct people. They truth, overtapped. They are motivated by desire for achievement and accomplishment. The feelers consider the effect of actions on others. They are people and situation focused.

They value empathy and harmony. It is as important to be tactful as it is to be truthful. Motivated by a desire to be appreciated. So let's all say what we are. You will be shocked to know that sister is a thinker. Correct. Correct. So let's all say what we are. You will be shocked to know that sister is a thinker. Correct. Correct.

Abby and I both tested high on the feelers. What what? Yeah. So what do you think about that? I think we weren't surprised. Do you think that you are probably higher on the feeler than me or vice versa? Well, it's interesting because being married to you,

there's some logistical things that I've had to learn to put into my daily operations that force me into not necessarily being, I do think that I'm trending a little bit more towards becoming a thinker in some ways. By necessity. By necessity under duress. Yeah. But like I said earlier, I tend to instinctively have got feelings like I feel a lot and I'm thinking about the group feeling and what everyone will want a lot. And so this is I think one of the things that I scored highest at in difference to the other one. I think it's really fascinating how you to operate

being so different in this way. And I want you to talk a little bit about that. I do want to mark what you said. That's another reason personality is malleable. Because in a couple, if one person is really far the other way, you have to take on the other side. Maybe. Well, I think it happens with us whenever I stop being anxious, you start being anxious. Yes. It's like, you feel like, oh, she's not worrying. Then I guess I better worry.

So annoying. Yeah. That's called polarization. I'm familiar. It's a thing. I think for this one, it's one of those humbling ones because the feeler has this very, you know, people focused considering the effects on others. Things that arguably are great qualities to have

and the thinker is like none of those. So I remember when I was living in Rwanda had this Austrian roommate and she came home one day. We were living together for like six months at the time and she came home one day and she said, I've observed something about you. You are action-oriented. You are not people-oriented.

Oh. And I was like, huh, I guess for a roommate, maybe that's something that should be considered like, this is my call to maybe be a better roommate. But I was like, that's correct. I definitely am that. Like I just, I am much more, I'm just more focused on the goals than the people.

That's so interesting. Yeah. So when you say that you are more of a task oriented than people oriented, is that something that has made you feel bad over time, kind of like being an introvert has made me feel bad because I'm supposed to be people oriented. How have you experienced that over time? Has it been like a weakness that you're trying to change or no, especially as a woman?

Yeah. This stuff is just shit is gendered, right? So a man who's task oriented over people, great your hero awesome champion. A woman who's supposed to be nurturing, have you felt that to be gendered? I think I just think of it as a predisposition in a vacuum. If given two options, I'm going to gravitate towards the task. That's just, it feels very natural to me. And I think in some ways, then I have to look beyond that. So to answer your question, it's been so clear to me always that I think I just accepted

it. And I think I have a small group of people around me that I am oriented toward, but I am not a lot wider than that. Sometimes I think looking below when you think about adaptive, like where does that come from? Is my inclination to go towards the task? Because it is much easier for me to control outcomes with the task. I am very effective at it. I know how to do it.

I can just put my head down and get it done. Whereas when it comes to people, they are much more messy and complicated and unpredictable and it's very hard to keep them on track. And so I wonder if that has something to do with my adaptive need to control and need to be invulnerable and all of that. So it's just interesting from that perspective to be like, it is true that this is where my natural predisposition is.

And then it's just trying to go a level lower and say, why is that the case? And is that working all the time for me? Is that working? Like, am I the satisfaction I get from accomplishing tasks? Is that level of satisfaction, satiating my actual joy and fulfillment and all of that? What's interesting about you, sister, I think, my actual joy and fulfillment and all of that.

What's interesting about you, sister, I think that is this idea of you being this T, this thinker, this task oriented person, because I think you have this laser-like focus that it is for your people, because all of the tasks that you're doing is for people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so true.

That's where it is. So it's like kind of an interesting thing. And you two have like an incredible dynamic between Glenn and you being an F and you being a T sister on how you make business decisions. You have to talk about that. Okay. I'm a strong F. You're a strong T. First of all, do we believe that's true? In terms of being careful about the stories we tell ourselves, do you believe that you're a strong-t?

Like you think your way through decisions instead of feeling your way through decisions. I 100% think I am. Yeah. Okay. I am also willing to accept the strong-aff for now. Let's take the pod squad through how we might make a decision together, because we do make probably every single decision, whether it's a little thing, like, what's this caption

going to be for our social media? Or like, what's this huge next decision? We make every single frickin' decision together. Like, literally, should there be one exclamation point on this question mark? That's how much we think through every single thing we say to you. Lots of detail. We think it for 15 years. For 15 years.

Okay. So say like a big thing is presented to us. Do you all want to do this big event or whatever? Then how would you say that goes between a thinker and a feeler to make that decision together? I would say that we both have our niche expertise and that I run through the kind of risk-benefit analysis and like who are the partners, what the ROI is, what the vet the people and all the things like this. And I will come to a conclusion about the advisability of it. What's your analysis? But I would think, okay, I just have this one wild and precious life. If this thing were tomorrow, I always have to decide if it were tomorrow. Because if I say, oh, that's six months, that's some other version of me.

This were tomorrow, would I feel a yes in my body about going, even though there was the no, because every yes is a no, right? So I'd be saying no to being home with the family, to being, is that yes bigger than this no? Like in my body, and I would seriously think about my little school that I wear around my neck, on my necklace,

like I would think about death, I would think of the life is short, I would think think about my little skull that I wear, around my neck, on my necklace. Like, I would think about death. I would think of the life as short. I would think all those things. I can promise you the word ROI would not be part of my decision making. So then I would have a feeling, a gut feeling that's a yes or no, and then we would get on a call.

And I would just interject that you are very in tune with the people involved, both the people who are on the other side of the opportunity and your feelings towards them and whether it's warm or whether it feels just right or whether it feels a 1% off with them and then also in your family. There might be times where it's a very good time for your children, and they won't miss a beat when you leave. And there's also times where you say it literally doesn't matter. How great that opportunity is. This moment is not a moment that I'm leaving.

So and so. Exactly. Because my feeling is that it will not be good for them that I leave right now. So it's like end of discussion. So that kind of high touch on the people, I would say also is heavily involved in your studies. Yeah, I think of it in terms of like concentric circles. I'm in the middle.

Is this good for me in my spirit, in my sobriety, in my soul, in my peace, and whatever? And then my family is right there. Kids in Abby and Craig, what's going on with them. Then there's the wider circle, which is our team. There are times when it's like, no, it's not good for us. Like they need me, we need, I need me on the ground. And then the wider thing is whoever I'm going to, that is important to me, less important to me than all the concentric circles. And by the time you get to me, I already know it's probably a good partner because you know who I want to speak to and who I don't.

And then when we talk, how do you feel like that goes? I feel like we would say, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling, and I'd say both of us have veto power. Yeah. So, if you're feeling awesome and great about it, but I've done my analysis and I'm like hard-known, then it's off the table. If I'm feeling super hot on it because of my analysis and it feels cold to you, it's hard-known. So, I think that has worked well. And I think inherent in that is a very high level of respect for each other's process process. You know, because that makes a big difference. Someone, if anybody off the street walked in and said,

I just feel like it's a no. I'd be like pound sand. I'm not listening to you. But I think over time, we have developed that trust with each other's process to know that that veto power is well-founded. And I'll say, we have never, sometimes we're both yes, sometimes we're both no, but there's never been a situation

where one of us has vetoed that later we've been like, damn, that was the best opportunity. It's always turned right. It's always, there was a reason for it. And I would say as a feeler, one thing that I really appreciate and if for all of those thinkers who are partnered in business or family or friendship with feelers, one thing that I always appreciate is when I come back and say, no, it's not right, you never say why. Because feelers can't really always give you a bunch of bullet points, but we do have a process. So

your respect for my process and not making me verbalize all the reasons all the time, because you probably could verbalize your reasons usually, right? Because you've thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah that means that's breadcheap for it, but that makes sense to a feeler or exactly like so I think that the mutual respect that you both have is The element to this process that makes it work so well. Yes, it's really something All right, the next category is judging or perceiving so this is Jay or

P or perceiving. So this is J or P judging or perceiving and now real quick judging does not mean judgmental. I mean it might because I'm a J. Okay, well I'm a J2. I'm both. Okay, this is about working, planning and decision making. How we make decisions and how we kind of order our times and days and lives. Judging people are people who lean towards structure and making from decisions, perceiving people like to be more flexible and open. Yeah, with their time, their decisions, their day, how did all of us end up? I'm off the charts. J. Yes. Yes. Off the charts. J. Yes. Yes.

Off the charts. J. Okay. I go back and forth between judging and perceiving. I'm always on like the 50 50 percent. And then what about you babe? I'm P. Per se. Your P. Your Per se. Yes. Of course you are. Of course you are. So this is a person that likes it to do list. Is the judging person? It's somebody who wants structure in their time, in their day. They might make lists to-do lists. They might make lists for how to make decisions,

pros and cons. This is one of those categories that makes me a little mistrustful of personality tests because to me, and this could just be me, but I just feel like there's always a back and forth between wanting structure and wanting openness. It's like, you know, when the kids are little or are now, and it's the school year and every minute of your life is like accounted for from minute everybody wakes up to the minute you go to bed with like school and practice and all the things and you're desperate for free time. Right? You're desperate for summer. Come on summer. Come on summer. So I can be free from all this structure and then you get to summer and it's like a week into summer and then everyone's just laying around being

themselves with no time and you're like, please God, take me back to structure. Yeah. So it feels to me like my whole life is like a wanting the thing that I don't have. If I have structure, I want the freedom of theness. In this way. Yeah. And then if I have the openness, I'm like, I feel like an untethered lost ship at sea and I want the anchor of structure. Right. But that's just the human condition.

Okay. We want the thing until we want the thing until we want the thing so bad. That's the thing that's going to make us happy. We get the thing and we're like, I want the other thing. That's what's going to make me happy. I agree with you on your analogy of the summer because that works, but it's also just, I don't think limited to this category. I think it's pretty much everything.

Yeah. I think more than the other ones, especially this one for me, because I love open space. I think more than the other ones, especially this one for me, because I love open space. I love being able to fill my day with whatever. But I, in the piece I get from having structure, liberates me to have real experiences with that open time. So getting a workout done and having a calendar and seeing things on my calendar makes me feel safe to be able to be free and open. So this is one category on the Myers-Berkes test that the grass can be greener on the other side in some ways, but this is also one of the ones

that I have figured out that all of these tests, I am trying in my life, trying to get into them, I'm trying to get to the middle. I really am, because I see positive attributes on all of them. I really do. I find that it is almost imperative for me to try to find more of a balance, because this for me feels like this will balance out all the pieces of my life for some reason.

I feel that, I get it. That's just how I feel about my work, my job. It's like, to what point do I prepare? The magic is somewhere between making it happen and then letting it happen. It's like where, like the magic of an hour of a podcast, magic of an hour on stage, like when I go do, speaking event this week, to me it feels like

prepare, prepare, prepare, and then show up and freaking let it all go. And trust that the preparation is there, but there's like, when you prepare and stay rigid, you miss the magic of the moment. So it's an end both all the time. But I don't like no preparation, something prepared, something let go.

It's like the annoying thing about life, how everything's end both. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat?

You know, trailer food. Shh. Ah, I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. Ah, ah, ah. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I

just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. I see where you're at. If we go back to our original ways, we started the first podcast about it's a collection of thoughts. And, you know, if you have this dichotomy between judging, being work first, play later, perceiving, being enjoy life now, work later. If you've got judging being taking deadline seriously,

perceiving being viewed deadlines as elastic, you know, both of those can be somewhat of cages if you're too far in the extreme. But as you gain more experience in your life and have more self-efficacy, maybe you can know when, when is it important to take this deadline seriously? And when can I actually push back a little bit? When is it important to work for first in this moment and play later? And when in this moment does the fullness of my life require me to like jump on this moment of joy and work later. Because too much rigidity, it's really like you're hiding behind these shields as if either one of those is going to keep you safe. You know, if I just enjoy life all the time, it'll keep me safe

from whatever regret I have. If I just work first all the time, it'll keep me safe to make sure that I get where I want to go. The truth is, nothing is keeping you safe. So if you begin to really have the fullness of confidence in yourself to be able to judge every moment or perceive every moment for what it is and make a decision based on that moment and what it calls for, you probably are going to make the wisest decisions for yourself. Yeah, I love that. I feel like it comes back to me to the beginning of introversion and extroversion. For me, it's location. It's like where I am. Like when I've prepared enough for something, that's my inner world. And then when I get to the podcast with you two, or I get to a stage, or I get to whatever,

that's when I have to force myself to be president in the outer world. And when I'm president my outer world, I can no longer control. And that's very scary to me. In the inner world, I'm in charge of all of the things in there. That's why social events, parties, being around other people is different for me. It's it's it's it's locationally different. I have to be in a different place like I have to be in the outer world where you're there and you can say whatever the hell you want to and all of these things are happening. So it's location. Does that make sense for it's like

I get that and I think that for you too, like this just happened this weekend, we were going to the Angel City game and you had to do some stuff for the soccer moms. And it was amazing. And I just, I had to tell you, like, you can prepare all you want, but you also have to understand that you are magic when you show up. And it's not because of the preparation, it's because you are magic. Like the things that you think about and the things that you say even off the cuff, that's magic. That's you showing up without like any kind of preparation and just being open.

And so like the confidence to know that you're magic in your openness and not just your structured self. Like that's, I think, an important element. in your openness and not just your structured self. Like that's, I think, an important element. You have that. You have that belief that you will be enough in the moment. And that's why you're always so present. And I always get the feeling like when we leave people

or like a professional event or anything that people's thoughts will be, God, Abby is so, oh, like you just make people feel so magic and loved and then they'll be like, Glennon really nailed it. Yeah. Yeah, but I know who I want to go to lunch with.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay. You're magic too. I love you. All right, I'm very fascinated with this one. And I understand the least about this last category, but I think. Because it's newer, right?

Yeah, it's a newer one. It's called identity. And it's the definition of it, or the description, is how confident we are in our abilities and our decisions. And the two categories are assertive or turbulent. And I think the assertive people are maybe more confident in their abilities and decisions. They're more self-assured, they're more even tempered, they're more resistant to stress, they don't worry too much, they aim for goals, they want successful results. They're unlikely to spend a lot of time thinking about their past actions or choices.

What's done is done for assertive types. Turbulent individuals are a success-driven, perfectionist, eager to improve, always trying to counterbalance their self-doubt by achieving more. They push themselves. Turbulent personality types tend to notice little problems and often do something about them before they come larger ones. But overall, assertive types are more confident in their abilities and decisions. And turbulent people tend to be less confident in abilities and decisions.

Am I right in that I tested turbulent? Yes, you did. And you two both tested assertive, is that correct? I actually don't know what I tested on this one. I think I did a test that didn't have the air the tea, which is fascinating because I'm listening to say this and the turbulent describes me perfectly until you get to the point where you say it's about not being confident. Because I think I have all of those perfectionists that always want to improve noticing the little problems, that describes me perfectly,

but I wouldn't say that I'm not confident. I feel like I'm confident because I do all that shit. Oh. Yeah, I'm curious. This is the first test, Myers-Briggs, like test that we took that I, that these were two news new, which I actually appreciated a lot. It made me feel like there was an update to the system.

You always love an update. Well, I have done this test a hundred times in my life. A hundred times. It's not like the answers are different year over year. It's like 10 years later or five years later They should I change everything changes. So this has kind of been fun to read into a little bit I don't understand this category first of all so yeah I don't but can someone tell us what this category means call us and tell us what it means

I'll tell you what I decided that it means That my I feel like I do have first of, I think turbulent is a good word for me. I would pick that word from a lineup for myself. Right, I don't want that to be true. I don't want to be a turbulent person. I want to be peaceful and steady and easy breezy. But in fact, I feel like the fruits of my life might be turbulent and how I am on a daily basis.

But what I liked about this category was that I felt like it was telling me that my way of being, which is I am constantly racked by self-doubt. Okay, and I feel like annoyed by it because I feel like it's unsuffeminist of me and like unevolved and I don't want to be that way, but I am. I'm very concerned that there's something wrong with me. Like I always feel like there's something defective deep inside of me that I'm trying

and one day will fix or overcome. I don't know what the hell that thing is, but like everything I do all day is to try to all of the self growth, all of that, that is to like fix this thing that is just not quite right. But I feel like what this category was telling me was that maybe there's like an okness to even that way of being, that that's just a way of being that I've always decided was neurotic. Maybe it's just that way of being makes me a good thinker and writer. And I don't know what the hell it means.

What do you think it means? I'm interested in this because for a couple of reasons, the addition of this to the test might bring it full circle to, we talked in the first podcast about really personalities being in collection of thoughts. Because it is interesting if you think about the collection of thoughts making you think a certain way all the time, like you being like there's something wrong with me over and over again, which leads to any number of behaviors that you just referenced. It makes you think, well, is that so?

What if I were to lay down this collection of thoughts, let's just posit that that is a possibility. I don't know if it's possible to lay down a collection of thoughts that ingrained. But were it to be let down? Is there another whole set of energies and actions that you would be able to invite into your life by setting that down? And then be, if it is not the case that you can set that down, because that is just whether it's because it's adaptive or trauma-based or whatever, it's just who you are, then it makes me think of Cheryl Straits. It's conversation

in an earlier podcast where she's talking about, I'm never going to not hear this voice, you know, and I am just going to invite it to the table and the way I realign it is I don't give it as much of a voice. I say you're just one of the many, many voices that are in our symphony that is me and what I need to know about you is that you're usually like 99% wrong. Yes. Because it made me think of Dina on our team who is just exceptional in every part of her job. And we were all laughing because we all did the tests and sent them to each other. And hers was, she's a turbulent architect because, and just to back up, every one of these

Myers-Briggs, there's obviously since the original four, there are 16 permutations that you can get because each one of the four categories can either be a turbulent or assertive. So there's 16 and then they name them all in the 16 personalities. So hers is architect. And for turbulent architects, many of their best efforts come from concerns about real or perceived shortcomings. This may push them to work harder and be more meticulous in an attempt to do better or make things better. These personalities are more thorough,

not despite the fact that they worry, but because they do worry. And so she's in INJTET. That made me like, oh, that makes total sense because she's amazingly meticulous. But it also makes me sad because I'm like, what if you just trusted that you were amazing and meticulous? Like, what if you didn't need to worry, and that's what I think about when I think about you, what if you didn't have to think

that there was something wrong with you? Like what would happen with that extra energy? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I have an idea because language is so important to you. And the word turbulent, I think, has kind of a negative feel to it. Like, an ocean that is like out of control and it's going to, right, drown everybody.

But like, all of the attributes that you read are very positive, right? So like, you think, oh, maybe this, this has something to do with like that feeling, like, something is wrong with me. That's, I need to change something. So I'm always doing self-care, trying to perfect, trying to fix that one thing. If maybe the language is a little bit different, maybe you are just like a growth mindset at person. We're always just trying to better yourself. Well, that's funny because the assertives are defined as growth mindset, interbulate.

It's got. So it's interesting. Do you think that last line that I read about Dina that she's good, not despite the fact she worries, but because of it. Do you think you're good, not despite the fact you think something's wrong with you, but because of it? Yeah, I think that's correct. It reminds me of something Liz Gilbert said recently, which was, you're afraid to stop being anxious because you think if you stop being anxious, you being anxious because you think if you stop being anxious, you will lose control. But you never had control. All you ever had was anxiety.

So it's like, I'm scared to stop feeling like I'm not enough. I'm scared to stop worrying that everything's going to fall apart because I actually believe that my worrying is what's keeping all this shit together. That's right. But that's not the case at all. But I just, I actually didn't mean for this to turn into a therapy session. What I meant to say was that it made me feel like, first of all, one thing that I can do with this voice is just to voice it every once in a while because I think it makes other people sometimes feel

who have that voice feel less debilitated by it. Sure. Because I can have that voice and then still show up and do this shit all the time. I just don't know if it's ever going to go away. I kind of feel like this might be not optimistic or something, but I do feel like I'm somebody who has tried a lot of shit, who has done all the things, a lot of things, and I still have this way of being.

So what I did take from this was that maybe there's a meaning behind it, because I feel like when you say you feel sad about Dina's worrying. Like maybe we all feel a little bit sad about everybody else's thing because we're bringing our own judgment to it. Like I feel sad about yours, your commander having to be in charge all the time, having to be

whatever. But what this test has done for me is to stop feeling sad about that, because that's actually just judging your personality by my personality. It's like the any or gram episode. Yes. Yeah. I think the whole point of it is like, we don't have to change each other's things. Maybe my worry that there's something, you know, yearning inside of me for different isn't something that ever needs to be changed. Maybe it's just acceptance. Maybe the longing inside of me for something different is what helps me be

who I am in the world. And maybe Dina's like fire inside is what is helping her be who I am in the world. And maybe Dina's like fire inside is what is helping her be who she is in the world. And maybe you're like driven leadership is what's helping our family and our company be who they are. And you're like Abby's commitment to joy is making all of this not suck for us is like being the music behind all the like lyrics and being the energy behind all of it. So what I'm trying to say is not like, what if one day I replace these things? It's like, what if this is just who I am and that's okay? Acceptance.

Ah, that's what Antonia Dodge and Joel Markwitt do personality hacker and they say that these personality tests for them are to give folks permission to be themselves. And then unconsciously give that permission to everyone else. Yes. They say, we believe that when you give yourself permission to be yourself, you own all of the components to who you are, including your genius. And that way you can give your gift, the gift of who you are to the world. Yes. Okay, that's right. That's what I was trying to say.

Maybe my neuroticism is my genius. It is. Well, let's, okay, let's tell one of the cool things about the test we took, which by the way, you guys just so everyone knows, we don't have any like, we're not, we don't have any connection to this. We just found this shit. Okay, we're not like pushing it we know

how to use it by it we know how to use the Google that's on account of how we found all this right okay so these little categories we told you the introvert or extrovert the intuitive or sensory the judging or perceiving the turbulent or assertive gives you a letter in each category. And then that makes up your personality type. So for example, mine is I-N-F-J-T. I am intuitive. I am, nope, I am introverted.

I am intuitive. I am feeling, I am judging, I am turbulent. So the name for my particular personality is Advocate. Yes, they give you a word for what you are. I and FJT is Advocate and then that gives you a bunch of paragraphs that describe your particular personality. I'm just gonna throw out that my personality was one of the rarest Right six percent of people. I've read the things. I felt like some of these things really applied to me.

What did you all think? Because I think this is an interesting part where we can get the self-deception out of this. Did you all feel like this described me and in what ways? I thought it did. I, this was my favorite quote from your section. People with this personality type enjoy the pleasure of their own company. They may seem quite a reserve to the world at large, absolutely light up around the close friends.

They bring to their friendship mutual support and growth, having fun together is wonderful, but for these personalities, it isn't quite enough. That reminds me so much of your like, fun is for children, bring me something else. Advocates may end up with just a few true friendships rather than a wide circle of casual acquaintances. That's an example of one thing that this test can make you feel better, because it's like, oh, it's not that I'm defective and that's why I can't have a million friends. This is just part of my personality that I might prefer to go very deep with a small circle than, you know, a wider one. I also think just in terms of the word advocate, I just don't know if there's anybody in the world

that's advocating more for other people than you. You're always trying to include, especially any person who is marginalized. I think that you are through an extraordinary advocate. Thank you, Lovebug. Okay. Sisters was commander. What are her letters? Her name is even in it. She's commander, Amanda. Amanda the commander. And she is ENTJA. So can you tell us what those stand for, Susie? Extroverted, intuitive thinking, judging assertive.

So I guess I did take the assertive death. Yeah, you did. I felt like this really, to a T described you, at the negotiating table, be it in a corporate environment or buying a car, commanders are dominant, relentless, unforgettable. This isn't because they are cold-hearted or vicious. It's more that commander personalities genuinely enjoy the challenge, the battle of wits, the

reprote that comes from this environment. And if the other side can't keep up, that's no reason for commanders to fold on their own core tentative ultimate victory. If we're in like a negotiation, and the other side is like being human, like breaking down, not not quite as prepared, not quite like sister won't be like being human, like breaking down, not, not quite as prepared, not quite like sister won't be like, oh, let's like, like, take it slow down and see how that person's going. Sister will be like, finish him. It's so fascinating.

So commanders, well, and this is true. If there's anyone, commanders respect, respect is someone who's able to stand up to them intellectually. So say we're at that table. And the other person is bringing the same level of genius and attention and preparedness that sister is. So the battle is on. That sort of thing will make me have a nervous breakdown.

That will make sister be like, that's my new friend. Yeah. The conflict, if it's of a certain quality, that's what sister respects in the other person. Bearing myself in a hole. Right. Exactly. What do you think? Well, you were very kind to take the work-based part of the test and highlight that, because when I first took this test, I was at a very small dinner party with my dear friend, Vee, and she had us all take the test. And then she began to read everyone's results, and she was in mine, and she got

to the interpersonal relationship part of the commander. And she looked up and looked at me in front of everyone and goes, oh my god, do you want me to keep reading? It was rough. It's like someone being like, this is what your insides look like. Would you like to show it to the dinner party? And we did. And so I'm just saying, to me, it's funny that you're reading that and I take that as a compliment to some people. People might be like, she must be so embarrassed by that, I'm like, thank you for the compliment. I know, but that's all of it is that good.

I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good.

I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it is that good. I know, but that's all of it things that's cool about this is, say your partner, say, John is hearing that.

How you are in a relationship. Isn't that helpful though, because for me, sometimes when you're in commander mode in that professional setting with me, I can think, I'm not doing this right, so she feels like she has to like, I'm taking it personally. I think there's something wrong with how I'm doing it, so you feel like you're needing to whatever. So when I read this stuff and I'm like,

no, that's just my sister. Mm-hmm. Like this is just her bad ass out. It has nothing to do with my defect, my whatever. It helps take things less personally and like respect and accept, respect and accept, I think. You're not defective. My baby, Abby Wombach is an ESFP.

Okay, so you're an extra reverse sensing feeling perceiving and assertive. And assertive. Right. And everyone, the whole plan squad will be shocked to know that Abby's particular personality is called. I'm the entertainer. She's the entertainer.

Can I just read a little bit about our Abby? Okay. Do it. Entertainers get caught up in the excitement of the moment. They want everyone else to feel that way. To know other personality type is as generous with their time and energy as entertainers. That is so true. When it comes to encouraging others and no other personality type does it with such irresistible style.

You're irresistible. Oh my gosh, you are and your style is. Yes. Yes. Entertainers are welcome wherever there's a need for laughter, playfulness, and a volunteer to try something new and fun. There's no greater joy for an entertainer than to bring everyone else along for the ride. This many laugh.

Entertainers can chat for hours, sometimes about anything, but the topic they meant to talk about. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha always and have forever been somebody that's been looking for joy. And nothing does make me happier than seeing other people experience joy and maybe having some sense of closest to it, either helping them create it or being next to somebody like surfing with other people who've just figured out, even though they're not necessarily great surfers, they've just stood up on their first wave and they're in the water and they come out of the water and they look back, like heart explodes,

like care bear rainbows are just like going out. Yes, you, that's, yes, in our family's life, it's just Abby's like carbonation. It's like, I'm like the still water. Abby just brings the carbonation. We recently had it and my mom was here for a few days and Abby wasn't here. And it was like all the carbonation was gone. I didn't know how to make things magic for my mom. I just was sitting there like, what now? It's just the difference between fizzy water and still water. Here's one of the things I think is cool about these things,

is that yours said that entertainers are very sensitive. Okay, strongly emotional, very vulnerable to criticism. They can feel like they've been backed into a corner sometimes reacting badly. This is probably entertainer's greatest weakness because it makes it so hard to address any other weakness brought to life. I thought that helped me so much because especially in the beginning of our relationship, when we would try to communicate about something, I would bring up something and you would get so upset about even. Shut down. Shut down.

She was power down. Boom. Right. And so then it was hard to ever discuss the actual issue because we were always dealing with your shame about the issue. Which I was constantly like, am I doing this wrong? Am I bringing this up wrong? Which by the way, I probably was.

But it did help me to read that because it's not personal. That's like actually a personality trait. If you love that person, then you work with it. I've really worked on it, though, and you've helped because every time you come to me with any kind of issue, conflict, not anymore so much because I feel more safe. But at first, you would have to say, honey, I'm not going to leave you. I love you. Everything's going to be okay. But I just need to talk to you about this thing. Yeah. And then it would settle me. I wouldn't go into that. I don't

know. There's something happens that I it's a I almost like blackout and I shut down. And I immediately spin and spiral down into like the worst case scenario. And so then I can't hear, it's hard for me. It was hard for me to hear any like personal criticisms. So your worst case was abandonment. So I would say I'm never going to leave you. You would say to me, there's nothing wrong with you. Yeah. You're not crazy.

I just want to talk about this. Thank you. So what do you all think was your biggest takeaway from this test? And what else do we want to say that we have not said to our beloved pod squad about the situation? I want to tell them that they can take this test at 16personalities.com. That's where we found it. We have no connection to 60 personality.

We have no connection. We do not lend any credibility to that, but just if you want to know. I think one of the things that I just appreciate a lot is our whole team, not just the three of us have taken this. And learning about everybody is really important. And we're doing a lot of personal, the three of us do a lot of talking about our personal lives, our personal selves. And to me, it was really helpful to get to know Allison and Dina a little bit,

more deeply, so that I can speak into their personalities. Like, you know, this is just information. And I think the more information, the better. And and leave out some of the information that doesn't serve you. Yeah, I wonder if every INFJ, what am I? Yeah. T is a pod squadder because it's only 6% of the population, but half of our team. Yeah, and Allison.S.J.T.s. Anyway, we love you no matter what your freaking personality is. And if life gets hard this week, don't you just forget that you can do hard things. If y'all would be willing to take two minutes and do one thing,

it would really be wonderful. Following the pod is so important to us and it helps the show a lot. It would mean a lot to us. If you take a minute to follow, we can do our things wherever you listen to podcasts. That's how you know that you'll never miss an episode or special announcements about events like the live ones we've been having.

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