We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Are You A High Functioning Codependent? Find Out with Terri Cole

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

402. Are You A High Functioning Codependent? Find Out with Terri Cole. Amanda, Glennon, and Abby are joined by licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert, Terri Cole, to talk about high-functioning codependency—a term Terri coined to describe those who appear highly capable but feel deeply exhausted, resentful, and overwhelmed in relationships. In this episode, we’ll explore how being overly invested in others' outcomes can take a toll on your peace and relationships, and how to begin your healing journey. Be sure to tune in next episode for a deep dive into codependent recovery and how to navigate the process. -Why the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency -Terri’s personal story about how she finally got into recovery for codependency -The two questions you should ask yourself as a codependent before you say yes to anything -The three quick practices you must do to protect your energy On Terri: Terri Cole is a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert and the author of Boundary Boss and Too Much! She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that clients –including parents, celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs – achieve sustainable change.  You can find her through her blog, courses, her podcast, The Terri Cole Show, and at terricole.com. Check out www.terricole.com/hfc for a special offering from Terri just for the podsquad! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can Do Hard Things, Answers to Life's 20 Questions comes out on May 6. You can pre-order We Can Do Hard Things anywhere you get your books or you can go to treatmedia.com. You can also join us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys were doing a live virtual event. Because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it, and we can't stand your sadness.

So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores. They show up for us, we're showing up for them. May 6th, if you pre-ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event. Please register for the event

by uploading your Indie order at treatmedia.com and just click the option that says, I've already pre-ordered from another Indie. Okay, we'll see you there. ["I'm Amanda"] This is so exciting. Terry, thank you for being here. Amanda.

I am Amanda. I know who you are because you mentioned me and then like 40 people texted me immediately. People were like, holy shit. So anyway, thanks. Of course. This is Glen and Abby. Hi, Terry. Hi, friends. In fact, when we were doing this and setting up, I was like, well, let's be sure to reference our other podcasts we did with Terry. And we had all thought we had done another podcast with you because we had talked about you before. Well, behold, it's the first time.

So pleasure. Thanks. Pleasure to meet you. Hello, Pod Squad. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. You have heard us talk about codependency on this pod before. Episode 142, Codependence, How to Stop Cont controlling others with Melody Beattie. And then more recently in October 24, we did when you're tired of holding up the whole sky. If you're like me, then when you

heard us talk about codependency and being codependent, you thought I am whatever the opposite of that is because I am not dependent on anyone. Everyone is dependent on me. If you're doing all of the things for all of the people, if you're a fixer, a handler, if it gets done because you do it, if your first thought is it has to be me and your first response is I've got it.

And if you are also deeply in your most honest places, to your bones exhausted, depleted, and a tiny bit resentful about the life force you are trading to make everything around you go well, then I would really, really love if you would listen to these two shows that we are doing with Terry Cole, because they are going to change your life. Terry has discovered a new kind of codependent, coining the term high functioning codependent.

Terry Cole is a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert and the author of Boundary Boss and most recently Too Much. She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that her clients, including parents, celebrities, and Fortune 500 CEOs achieve sustainable change. You can find Terry through her blog courses, her podcast, The Terry Cole Show, and at terrycole.com. Terry Cole, thank you for being with us today. Oh my God, thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

Okay, Terri, we are gonna jump in because I feel like, I just feel very passionately about everyone knowing about what you are here to teach. You say that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency. Can you tell us what high functioning codependency looks like? Well, what it is, is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the relationships, circumstances, finances, I mean, we could keep going, of the people

in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. So we have to really look at that distinction because we're all mothers and lovers and sisters and daughters. And obviously we want the people in our life that we love to be happy. We want all people to be happy. But when you are a high functioning codependent,

it's more than that. So now it moves over into actually feeling responsible for those things. And it's not good for you or your relationships, as we all know. You tell a lot of stories in your book that I just had to laugh out loud because they felt so like they could have been inside of my own head. I think we need to lead up to your varsity story of your sister because that is like, I think we need to lead up to your varsity story of your sister because that is like, can you tell us about the salon? What happens when you're sitting in the salon?

See if you can pick up on some elements of yourself, people. All right. So this is a story about what I deemed auto accommodating. So I was in a busy, my hair salon in New York City and it was Saturday. I don't usually go because it's so slammed, but I'm laying in the busy, my hair salon in New York City, and it was Saturday, I don't usually go, because it's so slammed. But I'm laying in the bowl, right, and I've got something on my hair, I'm going to be there for 30 minutes.

And it's busy. And now there's somebody online. And now there's another person online. And the more people who are waiting in their little robes for a sink, the more stressed out I became. I was like, I don't need a sink, I could be sitting anywhere, I should tell them that, you know. So I can't, I finally get to the tipping point where I can't not say anything. So I raised my hand and I called the girl over and I was

like, you know, I could move. Like I don't need to take up a sink. And she's like, yeah, lady, uh, we do this every Saturday. Like we're okay. We got it. You're good. And what I realized in that moment, so I was like, what else could you have been doing, Tara, instead of sweating some shit that is nowhere near your side of the street? This is someone else's side of the street running the sink flow at the salon, not you. But the cost, like, why do we even care? That's one example of what I could have been doing. I could have called my mother. I could have been meditating. I could have been listening to your podcast. I could have been

doing a million other more valuable things than trying to control something that was not mine to control. And after that, I actually did a quick video on that that went viral and people were like, oh my god, me everywhere. Like so many people felt identified with that experience. So I call that auto accommodating. And you're telling yourself in that situation, I am just being considerate of others. Right. What is actually happening? What is what you cannot tolerate in that situation that makes you automatically accommodate when it's none of your business? I'm worried that the people online are frustrated and mad at me because I'm hogging up a sink that I don't need. They can obviously see no one's doing

anything to my hair. So what's actually happening is I don't want the people online to feel frustrated at me, get mad at the nice assistant. I don't want anyone to be in trouble. I don't want there to be a conflict. I don't want any problem. I just want peace. Can we just have peace? And I think that if I make a move to move myself, right? Cause I'm the all-knowing and the all-I'm, I am the solution to all problems FYI, when I'm in HFC, right? That I'm just going to fix it by telling the girl I'm going to move and it's all going to be great. Now, obviously that's not great because what really is happening in there? I'm making assumptions about what needs to happen with the sync flow that's done in my business. I'm calling over an assistant who's busy doing something else to tell her that I think

I have a better plan for the sink flow than what they got going on. I think you're asleep, little girl, at the wheel. So I'm just, you're not doing the right thing. So I'm going to step in and get it figured out for you. That's what it could look like. I don't know. She didn't seem like she cared at all. She was just like, yeah, we're good bye.

So she didn't do anything. But how much time do we spend in our lives trying to control things that are legitimately not on our side of the street? And when people say, maybe you're just nice, Terry, or maybe I'm just being nice, like all HFCs wanna defend their behavior so badly, they can't wait to tell me that they're just nice, Terry, or maybe I'm just being nice. Like all HFCs want to defend their behavior so badly, they can't wait to tell me that they're just good people. Hello. And I say,

that may be true. I do believe you are good people. And if you can't not do it, that is a compulsion. That's not you being nice. That's not you being nice. Some things like in my body, I can put myself in this circumstance a lot where I'm the nice one, I'm accommodating, I can read a room, and if something is going wrong, I'm like, this is for sure me. And something that I'm curious about is the deeper why, right? There's this belief that we are the one that can control, the need to control, The thing that I'm curious about is the deeper why, right? There's this belief that we are the one that can control,

the need to control. And to me, I'm just like having a full body like, oh shit, is this just all a ploy to avoid myself? Or is it worthiness? Is it worthiness? Cause you're saying like, are you not worthy of the space to take up the sink? Are you not worthy of the space to take up your own life so you're fixing other people?

No? Here's the thing. Everyone's going to have a different driver, right? Because we all had different familial experiences, right? I hate to say we got to go back to the scene of the crime. Oh God, Terry again? My poor parents. My mother just stopped listening.

But here's the reality is that's where these seeds are planted. So to get back to Abby's question, like your question was, why? Why do I feel that way? Why do I feel compelled? Well, let's look at family systems. Let's look at your downloaded HFC or relational blueprint. This is all unconscious stuff. It's a paradigm already in your unconscious mind

of what is the right thing to do? How are relationships? How am I supposed to behave? How do I behave in public? How do I behave with other people? Then mixing, you're an empath, right? So if you're feeling all the feelings, right? HFCs, most of us, if you're active, now I'm in recovery,

but I'm still a massive empath. So I still know the temperature of every person in every frigging room. And I still know what conversations are going awry, where I still wanna dive in. And I just don't, it's just like drinking. I stopped drinking when I was 21, right? It's not like I don't ever wanna drink.

I just don't. So when you're in recovery, you just slowly but surely I stopped drinking when I was 21, right? It's not like I don't ever want to drink. I just don't. So when you're in recovery, you just slowly but surely stop those over-functioning and they're really controlling. Because when you think about any kind of codependency, right? Whether it's Melody Beatty codependent or more codependency, whether it's high functioning codependency, at the core of these behaviors is an overt or covert attempt or desire to control other people's outcomes.

So any time, like a little trick that you guys can use, is any time you think in your mind, oh, I don't want them to think, or you say, oh, I don't want them to feel, immediately just back your hiney up to your own side of the street, because what they think and how they feel is their side of the street.

And your side of the street is what you think and how you feel. It's so interesting about the drinking analogy, because as you were saying that, I was like, that feels similar to me. I don't drink anymore, but I have very good reasons to drink and very good reasons to still drink. I just choose not to. But when people, whether it's the salon or whether I get on an airplane and

I see that, you know, those two people want to sit together and they can't because the people won't move. And I cannot physically not absorb their anxiety and their discomfort. And so me doing the thing where I jump up and say, you can have my seat is to get rid of the anxiety that is their anxiety, but is my anxiety, because I can't keep it on them. I have to take it. Yes. Okay, here's the thing. You don't have to, so that's what recovery is about.

So we're gonna talk about how not to. But think about Gabor Monte talks about why we wanna change people's feelings. It's like, you're having a stressful feeling. You're in pain. You have a problem. That problem is causing me pain, I want my pain to end.

Yeah. Yes, right, so that's kind of what you're saying, but here's the thing, when you're an empath, and it's so interesting, Amanda, because you know it, I don't need to say you're an HFC, like I just, you know it from everything, how highly functional you are, how highly functional you are, how highly capable you are, how you don't love vulnerability, all of those things come into this.

So one of the things that was really helpful and can be, if you guys are identifying anybody listening, identifying with this is to really understand your energy and to do energy work. Now I say that even though before I became a psychotherapist many years ago, I used to be a talent agent. Like if you had said energy work to me 20 years ago, I'd be like, okay, like what, that's not even a thing. That's not even real. And then it is a thing and it is real by the way.

And so zipping up your energy, learning to protect your energy, meditating and having an actual dedicated practice. Like the top thing that can help an HFC in my experience is a dedicated meditation practice because what happens is, at least what happened for me and I've taught, I'm a meditation teacher, I've taught thousands of people to meditate, is it buys you about two seconds of response time. And that's all you need to not get up and give your seat. That tracks.

Two seconds to go, oh, this is uncomfortable. Okay, I'm going to take a deep breath. That's not my side of the street. It's okay. Does that make sense? Yes. Can you explain some other ideas of energy work? Sure. Because there's lots of different modalities. What are some of them that you would recommend? And what do you mean by energy? Yeah. I mean, your energy, right? So go into a room. And if someone's in a really bad mood,

does that affect you? Yes. Correct. They could say no words and you're like, oh, take your poisonous energy away from me, please. So we know that energy is a real thing. How we can protect and take care of our energy, especially when you're an empath. First of all, it's learning how to clear

or clean your energy. That's through, there's different baths that you can take by putting in, you know, put in witch hazel and I put in lemons and I put in essential oils to clear. And as a therapist, there was all these things I used to do because being an empath and a therapist is a lot because you're trying not to walk around with 45 charts on your back every day is that there would be, I would put water in my office. I'd have water and I'd have

red clear stones and that water would supposedly, and listen, can I factually tell you what happens? No, I do not know. Did it make me feel better to think I was doing something to protect my energy? It did. So I would clear that water every day. But there's also energy work that you can do, which is super simple. One of my best friends actually is a very skilled energy practitioner. Her name is Laura Riggio. Anyway, she taught me years ago, I'm talking 25 years ago, how to zip up my energy. So there's three things that I think for HFCs that are probably the most important energy things. Zipping up where you just, it's so simple. You take your hand, put it on your

pubic bone, zip up your center meridian, right? You're just tracing the center meridian. And then when you get to your mouth, you're going to lock it in like that. And we're just going to do that three times. Super simple. And now you are containing your own energy. And this isn't to ward off people. It's just the people who think that you have what they need when you don't. It makes them not think you have what they need. So there's that weaving your aura. Again, if you had been talked about or as 15 years ago, it would have also felt that was stupid, but I don't because of what I've been doing for so long. So anyway, it's super easy. You're literally just crossing over. It's almost like doing figure eights

physically in front of your body, all the way down to your toes, all the way up, all the way sort of behind your back. So what this does is this doesn't let a lot of sort of negative energy come in to where you are. And the third thing is you can hold points. When you're in HFC or anyone who's highly empathic, we can be overwhelmed with energy. Just too many people's energy, too much energy. And there's this position where you can just sit on your couch and do it where one hand is in the back of your head and the other hand is right here, like where your hairline. Just breathe.

And I don't know what this signals. Lara could tell you better than me because I'm not an expert on this. I'm just telling you guys what I actually do to protect my energy. And this is stuff that you can find out about and it can be super simple. What I love about my friends work is that's, everything is like a two minute video. Yeah, that's nice. Cause here's the thing, no offense, if I can't do it in like three minutes,

I'm not that interested in doing it, you know? Yeah. So true. So true. So true. So true. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big.

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Who paid for that fancy dinner? What did your house actually cost? On every episode of What We Spend, a different guest opens up their wallets, opens up their lives really, and tells us all about their finances. For one week, they tell us everything they spend their money on. My son slammed like $6 worth of blueberries in five minutes. This is a podcast about all the ways money comes into our lives and then leaves again, which of course we all have a lot of feelings about. I really want these things. I want to own a house. I want to have a child. But this

morning I really wanted a coffee. Because whatever you are buying or not buying or saving or spending, at the end of the day, money is always about more than your balance. I'm Courtney Harrell and this is What We Spend. Listen to and follow What We Spend, an Odyssey original podcast, available now, wherever you get your podcasts. So we have the salon, we have the plane. Can you tell us, I'd love for you to tell us

about your sister, and then I want to get into some of like the signs and life impacts of how all of this shows up. But tell us how you discovered yourself in this role through your sister. Yes, this is really how I discovered and coined the phrase basically through this experience. So I have three older sisters, I'm the youngest. I know two of you are youngest people. But did you know, I wanted to ask you, Abby, you could be the youngest chronologically, but you could also be the designated oldest child. That's correct. I was in my family system. That is correct. My sister's the designated older child. That's such a helpful term because we're

never figuring that out. And everyone always says, you're the younger one, right? To me. I'm like, is that just because I'm shorter? And they're like, no, that's not right. It's helpful to know that though, because you're like, why am I feeling so responsible for all the people and all the things?

But it is also something, well, we could talk about this another time, but you can also sort of correct that because it makes the birth order out of whack. Anyway, moving into, I'm the youngest of four sisters. One of my sisters had a history of like bad relationships, addiction, I mean, we all had a history of addiction, but hers was not getting into recovery yet.

So she was an active alcoholic. She was in an abusive relationship with a guy who was actually doing crack and they were living in the woods with no running water and no electricity. So like there's no amplification required. Like that's an HFC's nightmare where now my own life at that time was very busy. I had just married my husband. I had became a bonus mom to three acting out teenage sons. I quit my job as a talent agent, became a therapist. Like all these things are happening, But that shit is all on the back burner

because the only thing I can think about is getting Jenna out of her situation. So I was talking to my therapist and this is probably, however many millions, weeks in a row it felt like. And I just said, Bev, what am I gonna do? I've done everything, and trust me, I had done everything to get her out.

And she was like, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it in this lifetime? And I just thought, well, I mean, at the time I said, well, I think we can both agree she doesn't need to do it with this piece of shit in the middle of the woods without running water. Like, you know, I got extremely defensive. Feels reasonable to me.

That's my girl, Terri. And she was like, you know what, Tara, I can agree because I'm not God. She was like, I don't know what your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it, but do you know what's happening for you? And I was like, clearly no idea. So help me out. And she said, you've worked really hard to create a pretty harmonious life. And she said, and your sister's

dumpster fire is really messing with your piece. So you really want to fix it, fix her so that your pain can end and you could get on with like your happy life. Yeah. She is not lying. So what does that look like? Because I didn't know you guys, I had no idea that I had any other choice than to just be balls to the wall, loyal to the end, try until I'm dead. Like never, ever, ever give up. It really felt like it was my job to do it. My family expected me to do it. Like there was a lot of pressure to get this thing right, you know? And she said, you need boundaries.

And that was the beginning. That was literally my introduction to boundaries where I was like, wait, what? What is that? And she was like, you don't need to talk to your sister about this guy. Because my sister would, you know, we would talk and she would be like, I always feel so much better after talking to you. And I'd be like, I always feel like a toxic waste site after talking to you.

Like I'd never feel better. I only feel worse and more worried than I was before. And so the boundaries came where I just said, hey, I love you and I can't keep talking to you about this guy who treats you so badly. And when and if you ever wanna get out, I'll always be your person. I'll always be here." And less than nine months later she called and she was like, hey, are you

still my person? I was like putting on my sneakers, picked her up. She got into school. She got into recovery. My husband and I helped her in an appropriate way, right? Not doing it for her in the way that we could. And here's the important part of the story and the painful part too, is that I could have forced it and sort of saved her, done an intervention, whatever. There's a million things that you could do. But in the end, at the hero of her story. In this case, my sister is the hero of her own effing story, which she should be. She gets all of the self-esteem that comes from doing it. And my anxiety, I learned from my therapist that I could not center the solution on myself, which is what I was doing.

And that was painful. Right? I literally thought it was all love. I thought that I'm like Mother Teresa. I'm just a lover like that. I just care about people. That's what that's about. And then you got to be like, and want to control the crap out of them too.

Oh, well, that's slightly different. Not as good as the other thing, but more true. And that was the beginning of me understanding that A, there is such thing as high functioning codependency. That was sort of the beginning of being like, what was I doing? What was happening for me? I was obsessed with liberating my sister from this situation. And then I got permission from my therapist that I could stop, that I could let the chips fall where they may because she told me,

and she said, the thing that convinced me to cease and desist on the never ending trying to get around was my therapist saying, Tara, I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. was my therapist saying, Tara, I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying you can't. It's like actually not even in the realm of possibility. And I was like, well then let's not do it. That makes sense to me. Was there a grieving process with that? Because I think we hold on to the control so much because it's awful, but it's only less awful than grieving that we can never save our people. Yep. But the thing though, I got to say, Amanda, it became so clear to me that it was an illusion.

The illusion of power, the illusion of being in control of my sister's outcome. And so the grief was the guilt. There was first a massive amount of guilt where I was like, how could you be like out here with Vic and the boys and be having a normal day? Like you don't even know what's happening with, you know. I would make myself feel terrible, but then I would talk to my therapist about it

or I would journal about it and be like, what makes you think you know? Just keep holding onto that. So I think the guilt was there, but there's something on the other side when you get into acceptance and surrender to the truth, right? The truth of what is. We don't want to stay on our own side of the street, Amanda, because then we got to deal with ourselves. Right? It was so much easier for me to be obsessing about my sister

than it was for me to be a new bonus mom to these kids, to figuring that out. I mean, I was figuring it out, but my anxiety about me messing that up, like, how am I going to do this wrong? You know, and I'm sure I did and didn't. Like, I mean, they're great now. They're grown. I have seven grand babes. But at the time, you know, it was like no terrible twos, only terrifying teens. We just skipped the whole beginning part. Yeah, I know, Abby.

I see you, Abby. It's really something. It's scary. Can I ask a quick question? I feel like this is a codependent question, but can you talk to us about how people in a family or a friendship or sisterhood or whatever feel in reaction to the HFC? Because I feel like people who are HFCs feel like I am just loving everyone so well. And everyone loves me for sure.

I want you to give us access to the brains of everybody else. Okay. This is what I think we should do and you guys tell me if you agree. I think we should talk about traits and behaviors so that people listening can go, this is me. Great. Because I feel like it can still be amorphous sometimes. Wonderful. It's sort of like, is it?

Am I caring? Am I codependent? This is always the question, caring or codependent. So what are the predominant traits? Feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems. We've established that. Going above and beyond. A lot of times, even when it's not

asked for, but we kind of think that thing should happen. They didn't ask for the new thing, but we got it anyway because their spinner was old and gross. So it's a gift. I sent you a gift. All right. Always ready to jump into damage control mode, right? So the great things about HFCs, and don't worry, when you get into recovery, the great things just get amplified and the shitty things get less. So don't worry, you're not going to suddenly change. You're still going to be an amazing problem solver because this is part of our makeup, right? We are great in a crisis and we're ready to help.

You are hyper independent. Anybody feeling hyper independent, don't really like to depend on other people. I know Amanda for sure you for sure. Yeah. We're going to need to circle back to that one because I have like 14 questions. I feel like I'm a low functioning codependent and sister's a high functioning codependent. It's not low, it's just different. Medium.

It is different. Okay. But the desire to control Glennon is still there. I think that she's a hiding, like she's a hidden high function. Just in my brain. It's all just in my brain. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't want to interrupt. Please go ahead. What else are the behaviors? We're giving unsolicited advice. We are the auto advice givers of the world. We have such good advice. We can't stop telling you what it is, even

when you don't ask. Being overly self-sacrificing. So let's just say you were in a situation two people were going to work, your partner walks out the door and there's a flat tire in their car. Immediately you just yell out the door, take the other one, I got it, I'll Uber, no worries. Like we're just problem-solving and there's a certain amount of self-abandonment. Like we are as HFCs always willing to take one for the team. Whatever the team needs, I got it. We auto accommodate, which we already talked about.

Another behavior is anticipatory planning. So we know we're going to be with that difficult person, so we think, what am I going to do? All right, make sure I have the booze they like to drink. Make sure Uncle Bobby doesn't sit next to Uncle Jimmy because they hate each other. So I will put them separate sides of the table, right? Instead of having a conversation with the uncles, that's like, if you two can't be adults, you're not invited to Christmas, get out. Instead, we just twist ourselves up and light ourselves on fire to

make sure everyone else is comfortable and warm, no matter what's happening for us. We might plan exactly what we might say in 14 different scenarios. We might. We might when we're in the shower. Okay, Terry, it's our business. That's right. It's our personal time. What's wrong with being prepared, Terry? For anything.

We want to be prepared for anything. Might we also feel responsible, Terry, for the flow of every conversation that's happening around us and make sure that certain people are getting to speak and make sure when things get dull, that we spice things up. Might we do that?

Yes, actually a friend of mine, many years ago, I was away with my childhood girlfriends and one of them is an interrupter, which I can't stand. She wasn't even interrupting me. She was interrupting someone else. And I was like, okay, can she whatever. And then she's like, you know, why aren't you the conversation police?

And I was like, why can't you ever read the room? Why don't you let someone finish what they're saying? How about that? Anyway, so yeah, there are those things, Amanda, that we might do and we might think is righteous because we might think it is wrong for that person to interrupt that person. But you know who that's between? That person and that person.

And my friend had a good point to make. Oh God, that's a hard one for me. Glennon is now taking off her flannel shirt for everyone at home. She's beginning to sweat. Because that's a hard one for me. Abby knows. Conversations where people are interrupting other people and other people don't get to talk is extremely upsetting. Yeah. Maybe not for everyone. It is. And those people who are not

getting to talk have to be the people who care enough about talking to assert themselves so they talk. I see. They need to be their own hero. They need to be their own hero. They do. They need to be their own conversation police or just assert themselves. All right, back to the traits. Moving on to one of the last ones

is over-functioning and under-functioning. So this one is very important for us to understand the dynamica. I say this kidding, but it's not a joke. In my 20s, I could take a perfectly functional boyfriend and turn him into an under functioner in two weeks or less. You get it? You're just like, I got it. I's good. I got it. Don't worry. I got it. You know, there's a point when people just stop fucking asking because it's really not satisfying

when you're with someone who never lets you do anything or doesn't think you're going to do it right. And listen, I'll agree with you, Amanda. I know what you're thinking and it's true. They're not going to do it right. That is accurate. And life isn't perfect. Life is messy as hell.

We know this. So part of it, I remember I was living with a boyfriend many years ago and I called my mother and I was like, he doesn't know how to vacuum or brown garlic. Can't stop burning the garlic. It's so annoying. She was like, first of all, your father never touched a pan or a vacuum. So let's just start there. Secondly, Tara, let him can vacuum. She's like, listen to me. If you need everything done, your way. You will end up like me doing it all and doing it all alone. I was like, damn. She's like, just let them vacuum and

let it be quote unquote wrong. I was like, okay. Yeah. That part of your book where you said that the question is not, or maybe this is my notes from your book, I don't know, you tell me. But the question is not, you don't ask yourself who can do it better and more efficiently because if that's the question, then the HFC doing things will always be the answer. Correct. Yeah. So what question do you ask yourself instead of, could this be done better by me?

What do you ask yourself instead? Well, part of with all the over-functioning and overdoing, the two things, these are two questions that you just put in your back pocket before you do anything. Do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? Ooh, the without that, the second part's important. Do I even fucking want to do it? Because as HFCs, if you want me to do it,

you Amanda want me to do it, I want to do it because you want me to do it, right? It's very rare until we're bitter because here's the thing, this behavior is a one-way ticket to bitter land, literally no other stops. It is impossible that you will not become a martyr if you continue with this behavior. And trust me when I tell you that there is no 68-year-old martyr out there. We all know one. When they were 20, they weren't like, oh my God, I cannot wait to become a martyr when I grow up.

Nobody is planning on becoming a bitter martyr. They're not. But what happens is these repeated self abandonment, what we're driven by is not pure love. It's control. It's something else. So people can't even be sufficiently grateful, right? Because our motive is messed up. Right? If they're grateful, they're not grateful enough because we sacrifice so much for whatever it is. Let's go back to what Glennon had a question about with the cost to others or whatever you want to say, man. No, please.

The effect on the non-HFC. Yes. I'd love to hear that. First and foremost is their autonomy, right? People have the right to succeed and fail, to thrive and flail. Flailing is people's rights. You know what? When we're in HFC, we do not want any flailing in our vicinity. We do not like it at all. This is a no-flailing zone, people. Take that flailing outside. I do not want it. We can't tolerate it. It's exactly what, Abby, what you were saying before, this feeling, right? And what you were saying on the plane,

this feeling that then drives the behavior. So moving on to the cost, and then we're going to talk about what you can do. So we're not accepting people where they are, right? Because we want them to be somewhere better. If they're in pain, if they're suffering, if they're in a bad relationship, we can't just accept them. And let's talk about what is the real flex when it comes to love. It's not fixing people. I can tell you that it's not people as projects. I can tell you that the real flex is someone having a dark night of the soul and you being like, I'm willing to be in the fucking foxhole with you during your dark night of the soul. I will be here and not fix you. I will be here and ask, how can I best support you right now? I'll just lay with you. We can watch a movie. We can do nothing, but I won't shy

away from your pain. And when we immediately wanna fix someone and we immediately have a great idea for someone, what we're really doing is we are centering ourselves in that person's problem. We're like, I have the answer for you. Sometimes we need to flail, and loving the people in our lives means we will tolerate how uncomfortable that makes us feel to actually be present for those we love. Anyway, I digress.

I got it on a soap box. Moving back to- You do not digress. You are so good at this. Wow. Oh, thanks. All right. People as projects we don't love, right? Nobody. Have you ever been on the receiving end of it? I'm sure we all have. How does it feel? Because HFC is travel impacts. So whenever my HFC friends can't wait to auto advice, give me, I want to punch someone in the face. I literally, now we have all the language that when you get into recovery, you go, Oh, hey, I'm not looking for input. What I would love if you could just compassionately listen, that would be amazing. Cause what is holding space really? It means I won't make a stupid suggestion you're not going to take to make myself feel better at your expense. I mean, that's a very

ungenerous way of looking at it. Cause obviously that's not our intentions. Can you say that one more time though? I do feel like it's worth repeating. What y'all is holding space? We might not know what it is, but we can tell you what it isn't. Terry, go ahead. I don't even know what I said. I really can't. Okay. I think you said it is not offering some dumb ass advice that you're not even gonna take in order to make myself feel better at your expense. Yes, that's exactly what I said.

Thank you, Amanda. Because you do kind of end up feeling, I feel so annoyed when I share something really vulnerable and somebody just offers a quick fix back as if the problem is that I wasn't smart enough to figure that out when really the problem is just that I'm a human being who's having feelings. Yeah, that makes sense. Briefly though, let's talk about the most important thing we can change if we're auto-advice givers. And this is, it's a simple change, maybe not easy.

Before you tell anybody, even your kids, what you think, you're going to ask them what they think they should do. And then you're going to stop talking. So you have a little kid who comes home from school. I had a fight with Bobby today at school. You're not going to be like, in this family, we don't fight or whatever it is you could say as a parent, you're going to go to the principal. You're not saying anything. You're going to say, okay, tell me what happened. Then they tell you what happened. Okay. I want to know, what do you

think? How should you handle the situation? And just stop because listen, parenting is what? Teaching kids deductive reasoning, critical thinking, consequences for actions, right? How are kids going to develop these skills if we're endlessly centering ourselves as like, I know the answer. Well, no shit, you're a grownup. How about I'm seven? Maybe I could learn those skills. You're not winning, mom.

You know what I mean? But what is winning is having your kids say, you know what, I think I should go in tomorrow and punch Bobby in the face. Now you go, now this tells you, you're learning so much about your child. You're not gonna condone or encourage them to do that. Well, why do you think that's the right thing to do?

What do you think then would happen? Let's learn expansive questioning, allowing people to talk. Glenn and you said you don't like it when someone's like, blah, blah, blah, just do this. What if they said, is there more you want to say about that? Then what happened? Then how did you feel? All right. So what do you think? I mean, is that not love pouring on you? Give someone the floor, kids, partners, whoever, and let them. And I promise you guys, pod squad, if the only thing you took from part one was that you were going to stop auto-advice giving and you were gonna start asking expansive questions. That chip would change your entire life, I swear.

It would change your relationships because the intimacy that we build when we're actually interested enough to listen to our people changes the depth of those relationships. Yeah, because if you're trying to step in and fix the problem, there's this undertone of non-trust in your partner, kid, whatever.

And over time, that erosion of the belief that your partner might not have in you becomes so prevalent. And then you're just like, fuck it. I give up. I'm not even going to try. Yeah. then you're just like, fuck it. I give up. I'm not even going to try. Yeah. Yes. That's such a great point. I mean, and it's like, I can't do it right. In Boundary Boss, my first book, I told this story of my husband who's like a very mellow Pisces.

We've been together 27 years. He's an artist. Anyway, he had a situation where a rep embezzled a bunch of money from him. And I'm an Aries and I was not at all involved at that point and I was so pissed and I couldn't wait to get legal and I was like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna. So I could see finally, it took a while for me to see how much my response was not helpful. Again, centering what was happening to Vic on me is the solution, even though this guy's 10 years older

than me and lived a whole friggin' life before me. And finally I said, hey babe, just tell me, how can I best support you in this situation? And he very calmly said, you can have faith, then I'm going to figure it out and then I'm going to figure it out my way. And I said, great, I have total faith. And the PS on that story is he got every dime back from that rep and he did it no legal, didn't cost us a penny to do it because he's a much better person than I am. Anyway, that's the story. But it's like a worthiness thing too, right?

I feel like God bless all the HFCs out there who, like when you said zip up your energy so that people don't think that you have the answers, that's scary for someone who has developed their entire identity and worthiness on the earth through this idea that what they have to offer other people is this thing. That takes a lot of gumption and like... Bravery, yeah. Because what do HFCs... Like if someone's listening right now who's an HFC

and you're telling them their job is not to love their people through, then what the hell are they here for? What is their worth? Okay, so that's such a great point. And let's finish your sentence. They think their job is to love their people through control. Right. Is control love? No, it's not. Is it? It's the opposite. Abby taught me that early because love implies trust. So we only control things we don't trust. So which means we have to do one or the other, correct? Well, here's the thing. I want you guys to get that when we get into recovery

from being an HFC, this doesn't mean that we never tell the people we love what we think. It doesn't mean this is off limits forever. People are like, Oh, so you're, you know, you know, online how they just love to misunderstand what you're saying. So that's what you're saying. I can never ever, ever. I'm like, no, it's literally not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying telling people what to do can't be the first stop on the bus. If you want to have good relationships, that's it. That's all we're saying. That's good. What if we just create space to be heart connected with someone while they're struggling with someone because here's the thing as HFCs and you guys, we know this, this isn't just important things.

I'm telling my hairdresser not to take the 405 because there's like, I can't even let you drive the way you wanna drive. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, you're getting in the correct lane at the grocery store and I'm super pissed because I am counting the number of things that you have and that is a 12 and underline you SOB.

And this is messing with my entire worldview. So it's everything, but I think I'm so excited that you agreed to do two episodes with us because I really am so happy to, in our next episode, talk about recovery and really talk about what is happening inside the HFC. Because I think we talk about it a lot of like, okay, so you're trying to control the person, the person isn't feeling love, they're feeling control and you're not having intimacy. But if you're the HFC who is pouring all of your energy, all of what feels like love coming out of you on to the other person, but you're not getting any loop of intimacy back. It isn't just about the other people. You are living your whole

life without a flow of love, even though in your mind you are pouring more love out than you even have to give. So I want to really talk about the way we kind of reroute our life force to come from a more stable place and to come back to a more stable place because that is the opportunity cost of all of this, right? Yes. There's so much though on the other side, you guys will see when we get into it, there is so much nourishment. There's so much relief.

There's so much peace. There's so much peace. There's so much relaxation. And these are all things when we're active HFCs, we really don't have. We're endlessly seeking peace, but we don't have it because we're doing it at the expense of self. And so we're just pissed. We're just low grade annoyed all the time, just waiting for someone to cut me off in traffic so I can be like right on the edge of exploding. And again, we think we're loving our people up and in our minds we are. But the experience back to Glennon's question about how do other people experience us, it's dehumanizing. They experience us as people a lot of times that they're afraid of.

All right, y'all come back for our next episode with Terry Cole. We're about to fix you. Yeah. Is that right, Terry? Correct. Three Aries and a Gemini. Guaranteed. If you just trust us, we're going to fix you, okay? Great, see you next time. Bye. ["The Hardest Things"]

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.