We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - BEING BRAVE: What does it take to REALLY be Brave?

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

1. The story that led to Abby’s iconic haircut—how that decision terrified her, changed how she played the game, and changed how she lives her life.  2. How Abby and Glennon view “brave” differently—and why Amanda believes their perspectives may be more similar than they think. 3. Why for Amanda the bravest decisions feel like “lonely certainty” that can never be explained or defended to others.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or paid description starting at $12.99 per month. Stopped asking directions, some places they've never been. Hi everybody, you came back. So we can do hard things. Thank you for coming back. We also came back

because this is our favorite thing. We absolutely love meeting you here every week. We're gonna start today's episode, which is all about what in the hell brave actually means. With a story, I have a story which is a beautiful story about a man. I know, right? It's exciting because, you know, sister, I have heard in the ether, people suggest that perhaps I don't like men, and that is not true. Okay, it is not true that I don't like men. Okay, here's the situation for me.

The situation for me is that I love humans. I love human beings. I feel like we're born with all of this, you know, unique wild energy and love and potential. And then this thing happens on the earth where we are given these roles, you know, your male, your boy, your girl, and we're given along with our roles, we're given these scripts and these costumes and these ways of being. And like to the point where you all know, you to know, sometimes when I'm out in the world, I'm looking around going, oh my God, what is happening? Why are we all acting like this, looking like this, dressing like this? What are we doing?

It's like we're all in a, the whole world is a stage, right? And so what I don't like and I'm willing to admit is that I don't like, I am allergic to who men are conditioned to become in our culture. Not who they are, but the man act. The man act that the poor humans who have been labeled men are stuck inside. Okay, like the Matrix. So what this act involves to me, what I see the act being in the world is like just, you know, walking no yield. There is no yield in the man act. And what I mean by that is there is no yield on the sidewalk. Oh, God. If you are in, if you are in, I mean Abby knows I've tried to walk in our town and not yield to the men.

I literally have a bruise on my left shoulder. You cannot, they walk as if there is no need to yield at any point. When you actually do rub shoulders with somebody, a man, and you take like a hit, I'm like, how is that? You're like, oh, I hurt. I know, I don't love it. I'm like, how is that? You're like, oh, I know. I don't. I just stood my ground. I know. And then they look at me as if I am that shit crazy, like as if I am so rude to not have moved. But they did not

move. Right. It's so confusing. So. And then that that no yield, it's the entitlement of the talk time, you know, in a meeting, the man act says, you must speak for 80% of the time. The man act says on a airplane, you must spread your arms and legs over to the other side, the man act. And then, and by the way, in fairness, I want to tell you that I am equally allergic to the woman act of which I have been conditioned. Okay? Because we are, so I'll give you an example of the way I cannot stand my woman conditioning. Okay? So I'm at a grocery store a while back and I'm standing with one of my kids and this human being who has been conditioned to the man act is standing next

to me in line. And because he has to stay in his role, he is approaching me coming very closely. There's something with the man act that thinks that men who walk by women are supposed to put their hands on our waist or our back. What in the Sam Hill is that? If you want to know, if it's appropriate to put your hand on a woman's waist that you don't know when you're standing next to them in the grocery line, I want you to consider men. If you in fact would put your hand on the small of a man's back standing next to you in the grocery line. And if the answer is no, then keep your hands to yourself. Okay, anyway, that had just happened.

It was already prickly as all hell. And then the man said a joke that wasn't funny. It wasn't funny at all. It was kind of entitled kind of obnoxious wreaked of level a little bit of the ill. And a sister, I want you to tell me what I did. Yes. I laughed. I laughed at the man's terrible semi-root joke who had just put his hand on my back for no reason who I couldn't stand. Okay, I laughed at him because it is the woman's role in any situation to protect the male ego. I could not just or I could have. I have been trained.

I came in and her new book called this hymnathy. We are trained to have so much sympathy for men that in that moment, I knew that my job was to make him comfortable, even though he had just made me uncomfortable. So what I'm trying to say is that I do not like the acts. That's all I mean. I don't like the toxic masculinity act, I don't like the toxic femininity act that just keep us unscripted in our roles

and keep us free from being whole and from being ourselves and from really seeing each other. Okay. That's all I mean. Now, onward to the beach story. All right. First, actually, I'm going to tell a shitty story about a man. But then I will get to the beautiful story about a man in a development

No one's not coming but it's gonna tell a shitty story about a man I need I need the the juxtaposition, okay, and also it's just important. I feel it's important so Abby and I live by the beach now. It's amazing. We go there a lot and I'm sitting there. I sit and read. Mostly all everywhere I am, it's just a different place to sit and read. Right?

Great. Of Abby does things like in the water, surfing and such. So I'm sitting on the beach, reading my book. And I hear there's a family next to me, and they are so sweet, and they've got all these children, and they're all having a good time. And then I see the dad turn around

and look off in the distance, and his two children are approaching, okay? And the little boy looks like he's about eight, and the girl looks like she's about 12 or 13, okay? And the girl is carrying, it's like a big game or something. She's carrying it over her head and they're trying to get it to the family.

The man is so upset. He yells to his son, why are you letting her carry that? Why are you letting her carry that? Why don't you, like, he's shaming him the whole way up for not carrying this heavy thing? Why are you letting a girl carry that? Why are you letting your cousin who's a girl carry that? And it's so loud and everyone's looking. And so they get closer. And I am telling you that the man just, he brought the little boy and the girl over to the family and he said, did you see what this, it was his son?

Did you see what my son just did? He just let his cousin carry this thing all the way over. This boy let this girl carry this thing all the way over. And it was just this very intense and you guys, you humans. I was sitting there watching this little boy's face, also watching this girl's face, watching the rest of the little of the children and the family's faces. And all I could think of was this is where boys start to hate girls. That was my thought because that little boy is being so humiliated by his father, but he can't hate his father.

That's not the role here. So what's happening is that he is now hating this girl, the H, the misogyny, right? Just begins there. It begins in this fake idea of what that dad would have considered chivalry. It's the chivalry is the flip side of misogyny. It's little boy, you are stronger than her. Right, your job is to what? Protect her? I mean, well, her showing strength

that exceeds yours in your presence is shaming to you. Exactly. And also it's teaching the little girl to hate herself. Yes. Because she's saying to her, you are weak. And she's like, Oh, I guess I'm not supposed to be carrying this stuff. I'm not strong. Yep. All right. Fast forward a week or two later. So as in the grocery store, and this father next to me was talking to his daughter. And it's like the middle of the

conversation and the dad says, well, don't forget, I think they must have been planning to go to an amusement park the next day. The dad says, don't forget, honey, if you decide to go on the roller coaster, that's brave. But don't forget, if you decide not to go on the roller coaster and you tell us. But don't forget, if you decide not to go on the roller coaster and you tell us that you don't want to go on the roller coaster, that is brave too. And oh my gosh, you guys, I just

first of all, my first thought was, oh, he's totally red untamed. And I'm still dying to find someone in the wild who's who's reading untamed. It hasn't happened to me yet. I'm just waiting for like, oh really? Isn't that how it's happening to me? It makes me so sad. I'm like, what? I always secretly look at I would everyone's reading my whole life. That's my I want to talk to everyone about their book. That's the only thing I want to talk to people to strangers. That's what they're reading. And some day I just want there to be someone reading

and tame so I can be like, oh, hey, I wrote that book, but it hasn't happened. Well, and all fairness, COVID happened. So we weren't allowed to actually be outside. Oh, yeah, you haven't seen that many people. Yeah, I haven't seen that many people. But then, so I talked about this story, this roller coaster story on Instagram.

And apparently, there's a woman named Maria who wrote a children's book about a roller coaster and on Instagram. And apparently there's a woman named Maria who wrote a children's book about a roller coaster and being brave. So it wasn't about me at all. They probably spread this roller coaster back. But it made me want to talk about this idea that we have about being brave. Okay.

And like what this word means, we're all telling each other every day. Be brave, be brave, be brave, we're telling ourselves to be brave. We're telling our children to be brave, but what the heck are we telling them to do and be? Right? I want to discuss what we mean by the word brave. This is like the quitting episode where you have the very, very different This is like the quitting episode where you have the very, very different records going on the record about it. And Abby's line is of the ilk, courage is feeling the fear and doing it anyway. And Glennens is whatever the hell this means, not doing the brave thing is often the bravest thing we can do. Ha ha ha!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, people. Not doing the brave thing. Okay, what does that make sense to me? Mm-hmm. Not makes perfect sense to me. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs.

And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, Girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy.

A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios, available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so we're going to talk about Brave, so as per you, I'm going to tell you what the definitions are from the dictionary, and then we're gonna talk about what they actually does. Okay, so adjective and verb, adjective, ready to face and endure danger or pain. Ooh. Uh-huh.

Verb, endure or face, unpleasant conditions or behavior without showing fear. I don't like that one. Without showing fear. The dictionary is wrong. By the way, what I would like to suggest is that the dictionary is very patriarchal. Yeah. That is such a ridiculous definition of doing dumbass things while looking happy. I Don't think that's what it's saying. I don't think that's what it's saying to endure or face unpleasant conditions or behavior

Okay, so I'm sorry, though. There's a wide definition of that. They who could have written that? Let's see who do we want to endure or face unpleasant conditions forever without showing their emotions? Right, I understand. Everyone except for rich, powerful white men. I understand that this sounds very patriarchal, but I also think that we have to break into this definition because the way you define some of the words inside the definition can determine kind of what kind of brave is, you know, like, you're here and you're, you know, I don't know, I just, the ability to endure something unpleasantness like Glennon, your level of unpleasantness in mind is very different.

Are thresholds. I still have my eye on Miriam. Webster. I'm going to have to write this. thresholds. So I still have my eye on Miriam Webster. I'm going to hell wrote this. Um, also, I, okay, I want to present my case. Okay. For why the dictionary and Abby are wrong. Oh, okay. I'm just joking, but I'm not. This is the story of my life. Okay. So a while back, like years and years ago, I got this precious email from this woman who was a mother and she told me that she had just been to this family reunion, okay? So blessed her heart right away.

And she, they were at this like river or something and they were, they were doing this activity where people were supposed to jump off this big rock into like a flowing crystal river bay that sounds like something you'd make me do, right? It's like this adventure. So it would never make you do, you would never do that. Correct. It would never make you do that. So the woman was asking me about this moment

that she had with her family, which was this. Her 11 year old son, human who had been conditioned with the boy man act, was standing at the top of this rock, okay, that everyone was supposed to jump off. And Ev, the whole family was at the bottom of the rock and they were all looking up at the sun. And the sun was standing on the edge looking over, preparing to jump.

And this mother could see that the boy was terrified. Okay, that this was a crisis moment for him that he did not want to jump. And the entire family from the bottom, except for this mom, started yelling up at the little boy. Come on, be brave, be brave, jump, jump, be brave, jump, jump. And she said, why did that feel wrong? I don't know why, Glenon, why did that feel wrong? I don't know why, Glenin. Why did that feel wrong? That why did that moment feel so wrong to me? It felt so off.

And here's what I think felt off. We have trained people to believe that the word brave means what you said. Just feel the fear and then do it. Okay, that's what we tell our children. Feel the fear. Be afraid and just do it anyway. Okay, that works for our four-year-olds. But what about when our kids turn 16 and they're getting in the car and they're driving

away with their friends and they're telling us they're going to the movie but they're really going to the keg or down the street. So are we going to go to the car and say, honey, tonight, I want you to be brave. And by that, what I mean is, if you feel like you're going to be brave and you're going to be brave and you're going to be brave and you're going to be brave and you're going to the movie but they're really going to the keg or down the street. So are we going to go to the car and say, honey, tonight, I want you to be brave. And by that, what I mean is, if you feel afraid because any of your peers are doing anything that kind of makes you feel afraid, I want you to ignore that gut feeling and I want you to just do it anyway. Just do it anyway because that's what brave is. No, that is not what brave is. Okay, to me, that little boy up on that cliff, if he looked inside himself and felt a knowing that said, this is not right for me. This is not the right thing. This is not for me right now. The bravest thing on

earth for him to do would have been to look at his family and say, no, I'm not jumping. I'm not jumping because it's not right for me because the reason why that would have been brave is because brave is honoring the inner self and the inner knowing, even if it goes against all of the outer expectations of you. Being brave sometimes requires you to allow the whole world to think you're a coward. Jumping, jumping because a bunch of other people yelled at you and told you to, is not brave if all you're doing is cowering to the outer crowd's expectations of you instead of honoring yourself.

If you're losing yourself to honor expectations, sometimes the bravest thing to do is the not brave thing. That's what I meant, sister. I knew what I was talking about, even though everything I say sounds like an enigma wrapped in a puzzle. What I meant was sometimes you are the only one who knows that you actually did the brave thing. Because what you have done is honor the interknowing that no one else can see. And it's brave, it's bravest when that thing is the opposite of what the outer world is screaming at you is brave and what they will applaud for.

That requires the most courage to me. Yeah, I hear that. And I also think, I don't think you're wrong, Glenin. I really don't. I think you make a strong case. Thanks, babe. But I do have to say, though, that it is all going to be different and based on what each one of us value in life. You know, for instance, for me, the way that I was raised, the person that I am is different than the way

that you're raised and the person that you are. So our value systems of what we want to get out of life are just inherently different. And those shape and change as we go and walk through our lives. So I might what you would call more, I might have what you would call a more patriarchal view of brave. I take more physical risks, sometimes bordering on the side of reckless, especially pre-sobriety. I don't really overthink much. I've gone skydiving.

I've done a lot of stuff that would be categorically patriarchal in the world and the way that we see in view bravery. But for me, that's what I value. I am attracted to a kind of adrenaline of life, a kind of liveliness, something that I can feel and something that makes me feel something, right? So me standing on top of that cliff and my family yelling to me, jump, you can do it, right? Like that's support. That's not pressure. Yeah. It's so fascinating. It's affirming your inner voice. That's exactly. Yes.

This is exactly what I want. Yeah. So if I could amend my quote of feeling the fear and doing it anyway, it's like being in line with what you value in your life. And searching out some of those things that you fear to embrace or evolve towards or grow into and find out what your threshold level is of that fear, right? Like, don't like skydive if you're terrified of heights, right? That might not be something that you value. Okay, so you feel the idea of grave is still very aligned with you with physical adventure.

Of course. Yeah. And I just think of it as something completely different, right? That doesn't, to me, feel, sometimes when people are doing all of these wild physical adventures, I just feel like you have a lot of time on your hands.

Yeah, but honey, I just feel like it relates to, it relates to the inner world though. It's not just about taking a physical risk. It's about feeling something. It's about embracing or interfacing with the world in a way that you experience, like experience for me is something I value. Do you think this is why you like scary movies too? It's like you're trying, you're whole life,

you're trying to feel something. And I, my whole life, I'm trying to feel less. That's right. The last thing I need to do is go surfing. Yeah. Because my inner world is a storm of waves. Yeah, but that's not true. You feel, you access your feelings in a different way.

You read 700 books and dive deeply into the characters of all of those and you're feeling all that that is your adventure. Abby is experiencing adventure and thrill in just a very different way than you are, but you are still accessing that stuff, you're accessing it through reading and thinking and it's just a different level of buzz. That's true. And I would say that. I would say that I feel like all of my adventures are internal. And it works for me. And that's probably, I mean, quite frankly, we've just gone through a week of stuff that I've realized that I'm a little bit more scared to do individual work. Internal stuff. And so obviously that's like what I'm now leading into. So it's just where we're at every single year day, it's going to be different. Well, it's so funny about the bringing up internal because to me, that's the central part of what Brave is.

I think about that Jeremy Goldberg quote that said, that says courage is knowing it might hurt and doing it anyway. Stupidity is the same. That's why life is hard. A-men, like how do you know if it's stupid or brave? Oh, that's good. That's the whole thing.

Like it's like foolish and heroic. Look exactly the same on the outside. That's right. Exactly the same. Like you never know. And so for me, it's the bravest things. Like the ones that really stir me in my heart when I see them are the ones that by definition are singular

and externally inexplicable. It's like, it's like the words that are used to like surrounding brave like like pain and hurt and fear and fearlessness and boldness. It's like those aren't those don't resonate with me at what actually the most kind of like breathtaking bravery is, it's the singularity of the decision. Not in action, it's like for me, it's the decisions that are made in the quiet in your head or in your heart where only you know whether it's brave or stupid. And I think that something is brave when you know that the people that love you or hate you, like they might be able to support you in your decision, but they can't ever confirm your decision for you. Mm-hmm.

You know, it's like only you. Yeah, and that's why when we know it, when we see it, that's why when we know, because you're relying on only you. Yeah, and that's why when we know it when we see it, that's why when we know because you're relying on only you and in this world when we have so much need to, you know, for affirmation, for support, for confirmation of everything that we're choosing, it's like to actually do an extraordinary thing where you

Know something and are doing something that by definition No one ever can understand. Oh my God is Is real like it's it's just so it's so bold and so it's like This that to me is why brave is just this like radical posture That says I am, I will, I can, I won't, yes, no. And there's no explanation that can validate it. It's just you. I am obsessed with that. I do! That is so amazing and reminds me so much

of the Georgia O'Keefe quote that is courage is making the unknown known. That really the bravest thing we can constantly do is just know ourselves deeply and then show ourselves in one way or another to the world which is or to someone or to ourselves which sisters what you were just getting on in some ways. And that's that's exactly it because it's it isn't the making it known by going around and explaining it forever because by definition you can't ever explain it enough to make it be able to be rejected or affirmed. It's just, that's why for me, the people who are like every trans person in the world to me is just so

breathtakingly brave because they, no one can know what they are except for them. And then they just, in their way, they just make it known. And it would either have been that they were just knew it inside of themselves and never made it known their whole lives. I think that's why I have such an affinity. I don't wanna say that, I don't think, it's probably true, but I don't want to say it,

but I'll say it anyway. I don't like queer people better than straight people, but I kind of do, and I try to think about why that is, like why, when I walk into a room, I always want to be with the queer people right away. And I think it's because it's almost like I already know they've passed a brave litmus test. And I'm sure that the straight people have in the million ways too, but I just can't see it right away. Like I know that the queer people have already I can see that they've already made a decision

to just live as who they are, even though the world's expectations maybe doesn't jive with it. So I already know we're like, I already have this like huge respect, I guess, right? Because I can see that decision right on them usually. Well, as a, yeah, anybody, anybody in the marginalized community has had to do so much self-analysis and uncovering that those are the kind of people we want to know anyway. Tell us about your story about your when you finally made the unknown known. Yeah well it's one of my favorites. I think that you know one of the things that you uh and I talk a lot about is these moments in our lives that not just changed us, but that were really difficult and were a struggle. And I guess I'll just take you back to like the late 90s and just talking about my own

queerness and coming out story. You know, I watched Ellen DeGeneres come out publicly. This is during very formative years. I was like 16, I think, at the time. And she just got exiled. Like she just got sent off. She's got fired and could never get hired. And so even though people talked about it for a moment,

her not getting hired and being like sent away from the fame world was news to me. It was like, Oh, okay, so I can't do that. I can't come out. Yeah. So like, that's what was like entered into my subconscious from the time that I was a young teen coming into my own sexuality in my own sexual identity. So, I know it's pre-Macaroni Grille event. That was, that was like a year or two

before Macaroni Grille. Oh, but I think for me, one of the things that I attribute a lot of my strength from and bravery from is a former coach that I had. Her name is Pia Sundahog. She is Swedish and she came into my life 2008. So this is like, you know, 10 to 12 years after I was told subliminally that I needed to hide myself. And of course I had come out to my family, to my friends, and the world in many ways, right?

Like so, as a, at the time, as a pro athlete, as a pro female athlete, one of the ways that I was able to make money other than just play the sport was endorsements. And in order to be, as of the the the faces, I guess, of women's soccer, in order to get more of those endorsements, I knew that I could not come out publicly. So as to not lose chance at more financial to not lose chance at more financial independence.

And that is the truth. I was terrified. And also you've told me that you already didn't match the look that those endorsters wanted. They wanted the ponytails. They wanted the very femme look and you are ready were not that. So you, yeah. them look and you are ready were not that safe. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely was afraid of being completely in the the zone of oh that is I mean even though I'm sure that I presented gay,

I was like really trying hard for like the corporate world to be like straight passing. Right. So like, right. I had a ponytail for a while that I just did it. Look at me, I'm wearing earrings. Yeah, that's right. Or like, look at what? It was a different world back then. It was a different world back then.

Yeah, what? Look at me, I'll let you even put makeup on my face. Oh, God help us. I mean, there were seriously campaigns that I am so embarrassed about. And I remember feeling so uncomfortable during those shoots, just because I needed the money. Yeah.

And I just thought this is the only thing that corporate America accepts, right? So, or America, or America, right? Or the world. Right. Or America. America Inc. So in walks Pia, into my life, and I had never really met a woman who was so uniquely

themselves. You know, she played this, our very first meeting with our team, she played a song, these times are changing. And like at the time, our team kind of took itself will probably a little bit too seriously like we are USA and like you know jam in the flag in the ground of every room we walked into and beating our chest. Mark. Yeah, that's who we are. And she walked in and she's a Swedish woman who is completely herself in every and every

shoe she puts on and every room she walks into it was so fascinating and I just remember feeling like in this in this moment of this song like this she didn't alter herself when obviously the moment gets awkward when she's like just playing a freaking guitar right like playing a Bob Dylan song in front of us in the most serious people in Americans. I'm like, who the hell is happening? Our folk song gun win gold? Yeah, that's right.

That's exactly what we all thought. And then like, she didn't stop. And so this awkward moment became unawkward because we became, I don't know, we all were like, we were sitting back, like looking at each other like this is a horrible experiment on wrong. And then as the end of this song kind of came to us, we just like all, we're leaning forward and we had never seen a woman operate in such a strong way. And so she invited us into a higher sense of ourselves. And yes, she was gay. And yes, I had never seen a gay woman be so confident in their own skin. And so this was the first time that I was given permission, I guess. Like, you know how they say, like, if you see it, you can be it. And then I watched, I witnessed it. And I spent time studying her and watching the way that she acted and watching the way that she walked.

And I guess it was just like a couple of years later because she was such a great coach. And she stayed on as a coach for many years for our team. It was in 2011. She came up to me at the very first camp that year and she just looked at me, squaring the eyes and she said Abby Wombach. And I was like, Pia, she said best player in the year, 2011. And then she just walked away.

And I was like, huh? And it was like this very subtle thing. And every single camp, every single camp, the first time I would see her, she'd go Abby Wombach, best player in the year 2011. And for those of you non-sporty folks, every year there are best players awarded from FIFA, which is the world's governing body of soccer.

And so this was obviously Pia's goal for me. And I had never even, that's never been something that was on my mind. And this was the year that actually, in fact, my life changed in many ways because we had a World Cup in Germany that year, 2011. And I remember, this is an eight to nine month process of building where you're intensely practicing

and with each other every single day. You're on the road for over 200 days that year. And then you find yourself in Germany. And Pia, all year has been telling me, Abby Wombach, 2011 player of the year, right? And so I'm like, what am I gonna do? And every lead up to every tournament, you try to like, you try to do something

that like gets you in the zone that puts you in this place, like the flow as we like to call it in sports. And I decided, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut my hair. And I remember, I'll never forget it. I went to this European shop, this European hair cutting salon, and they cut my hair. And then can I just stop and say, what, what, wait, I want listener to be thinking right now is that this was a huge making the unknown known for you. Yeah. Because you were deciding to cut your hair uh in a gateway. How do we say? Yeah. I had you were ganging up your head. I was going to match my insides with my outsides completely. Yes, you were finally going to just take off that ponytail and just be, you were going to

come out and own it. It was your way of coming out, right? It was. It was really. This is pre-Abbey One-Bock hair that everyone has now. Right. I was going to say, it's like, it's like, it's like, um, BC. It's like, before's like, it's like, um, BC. It's like, before there was the iconic Abby Wombok

and all of the progeny that has followed. Exactly. There was no Abby Wombok haircut. Yes, that. There was just another ponytail and a sea of ponytail. And I need it. And nobody could set, tell her whether that was the right or wrong decision.

This was an uncomfortable or unpolable decision, right? Yeah, I just had to like do something to step into myself completely. And I feel like, and I didn't know it at the time, how emblematic this would be for the whole of this actual tournament and for the literal rest of my life. It was like, this was the thing that was blocking me from becoming the player that I ended up

becoming. I mean, truly, I know that this sounds ridiculous, but sometimes when we allow ourselves, when we allow ourselves to match our outer selves, everything becomes aligned. And this is the year that I scored that wild goal, that we scored that wild goal against Brazil in the 120 second. Yeah.

And truly, my life completely changed because of that moment. And I absolutely believe with all every fiber of my being that that moment doesn't happen if I have a different hair cut like truly totally. No, totally because you're because you're letting go everything you said about passability about I can still revert to this lane if I need to. I you know, you stuck yourself out of that lane completely and said, I am standing on this ground, that is my ground. Like whether it crumbles or not,

I am flag in the ground right here where I stand. And that's why this is me, here I am. And that's why I think it's so important that we have people in our lives that we want to learn how to become our best selves from. Now, they're not gonna be the ones that do the work. But Pia, this coach was this symbol for me of what was possible. Watching her go through her world and it took me years to get the courage or bravery to step into my

full self with this haircut. I mean, and you should have seen me, by the way. Minutes after I got my haircut, I was freaking out. Of course. And my teammates were like, they could see it on my eyes. I mean, I had tears in my eyes. It's like, I think I ruined it. I think I've gone and messed up my whole life. But the irony is if I actually could drop all of the goodness in my life, I think I can like literally point it to like this one simple

choice that opened the doorway for me to be able to walk into a higher, bigger, more purposeful version of my life and myself. And by the way, I didn't win Player of the Year 2011, I won it in 2012. Hey, yo! Oh, PEO, it's just, hey! Oh, and I love that, you know,

I think the most awesome people in our lives are the ones who, it's not like we want to be them. They just make us want to be us. Yes. Like, there was no part of, you didn't look at Pia and say, I also want to be Swedish and play guitars in the locker room. Like, but her showing her unknown made you want to show your unknown. And those are the best teachers, right? That just make us want to be more ourselves.

Because I remember you saying to me, I'm not going to get this right, so correct it. But you, you know, going through the process of watching Pia and that making you feel freer to be you, made you think about your place in that line. So what if you being freer about who you are and your sexuality and your gender identity and all of it would inspire for all kids watching the freedom that Pia inspired in you. So

then we go from I can't be myself because it will hurt people to the truth which is I can't not be myself because it will hurt people to the truth, which is I can't not be myself because it will hurt people. That's right. That's right. It's a really beautiful switch just to think of it like that because sometimes we can't be brave enough with our own lives because it's so fucking scary. But like sometimes it's actually, it helps to think about a little kid

or the little you or the little child who could help or who could be helped by some action you could take. And that could be the courage or the bravery that we need or like the thing that pushes us to do that or uncover the unknown as Georgia, I'd keep it safe. I mean, I think about, you know, how terrified I was to come out to the kids, right? And then I would have said to myself, I can't do this because it will hurt them, right? Or anything different

is scary as a parent. And then I think about one of our kids coming out a year later. And then I think about one of our kids coming out a year later, you know, and what possible freedom what I thought would hurt them. And that's why the boldness, it's like the the boldness for me isn't about the action itself. It's just about the the boldness has to do with the boldness of being okay with only you knowing it, that it's right. You know? Yes. And to just circle back to the definitions, do you know the origin of the word brave? It comes from the Italian bravo, which is bold, and the Spanish bravo, which is... Untamed. Oh, oh, shut up. Yes.

Stop it. How? Wow! Yes. Well, I mean, okay, and just to bring this full circle, I just, that's when I was trying to get at in the, in the, in the, in the, it is, it's like, you're not crazy or got down to China. Like, the weirdest, most unique, weird, wild things about you, let it be known. because if they're not untamed you can do a bunch of shit that's bold you can do bold stuff all day long but it never but it coming out of your taming the bravery comes from the intersection of bold with untamed that little makes it real, right? Yeah.

So what we're trying to say, like, if we get back to that kid on the rock, cliff too, whatever the hell thing I won't ever be on. Okay. It's not about the jumping or not jumping. It's not about the outer thing that you do, right? It's not to do the thing or not, but it's the inner choice to honor the self or not. Mm-hmm. And in that, that's not even the one I see in that. What I see is the mom who is like, that's not even the one I see in that. What I see is the mom who is like,

that's not right. I can't explain it, but not in my family. We're not doing this. Like it is the, I'm not gonna, I don't need to explain to all of these people in my family why that isn't right, what's happening, but I'm going to say, nope, not us. Yes. Yes. Like you guys are a bunch of zookeepers right now. And I want my kid

to stay free. By the way, I just want to say to all the parents right now, you never figured out in the moment. Like it's always, you're like, it, it's not right. And then, so it's okay to circle back with our kids like two weeks later and be like, okay, here's the thing that happened. And, you know, it's not like any of us figured out in the moment. I remember, it's like, we have to cover our bases. So if this moment does arise and you feel like there might be what would be classified as a more patriarchal view of bravery coming out in people. Jump, go, do it. Do it.

You can just cover the basis and be the person that says, or don't. Look inside yourself, find your truth. Look at yourself and find your truth on or you're knowing. Like you can say even though it might look quote unquote, like patriarchy uncool, but that might be really helpful for that person. Yeah. Also, don't you think it's a little bit of like a false paradigm

because we're always, I just think, I just think as a society, we're always looking at the cliff. We're always looking at the rollercoaster and we're saying like, brave is doing that or not doing that. And I just feel like, what? I feel like y'all are looking for brave in all the wrong places. Wrong thing.

Like it's just like that is something that maybe is brave for some people. Maybe people give two shits about whether they jump or not. So it's like the brave, you only know brave in you. You only know if your brave is the like saying, I'm leaving this relationship or I'm staying in this relationship. And my mom's not gonna understand. And my neighbors aren't gonna understand. But I know what I need. And I'm gonna to trust that that is enough. Or it's it's like my friend Dana who is one of the bravest humans that I can imagine in the world. And she at 39

years old told us all that she needed to be a mother. And she had a baby on her own. And she is raising that baby in the most beautiful way. You can imagine. And like, we're there to support her. We can see what an amazing mother is. She is, but only she knew. Only she could have known that. And I just don't. It's those things. It's those moments you can look at in your life that

are sometimes the loneliest, the loneliest clarity you can have are sometimes the bravest moments. Okay. Brave can feel a lot like lonely clarity. Damn, that rings true to me. Lonely clarity, yeah. That's so interesting because I feel like all of my brave is external. So, and I think I need to do so much more work on internal. What is your hair cut? Your hair cut? Yes. I mean, Abby, do you think anyone, did you,

anyone on your team, anyone in the agencies that were representing you, any and your family, that you could have made a pro cons list that somebody else could have understood, only you knew the significance of this seemingly very minor event in your life, which is to cut off some dead cells of your head. But that only you knew how transformative that moment was for you stepping into.

I think that is lonely clarity. Right. Yes. Beautiful. All right. I just want to say that I don't know if anyone else is going to feel this way, but this is my favorite conversation so far. I loved this so much.

Next great thing, let's just think about what's the bravest thing we've ever done. And do not necessarily looking for it in places that are we're expected to, like on cliffs and jumping out of airplanes, but like when in our lives have we really made something unknown known. And I would just add that it doesn't have to be something you've done. It doesn't have to be an action like it can be the thing that you knew undeniably but couldn't defend.

Yes. Oh, that's good. And we want to hear him. I want to hear him send us your voice smells right to us on the Instagrams. We're gonna be back with you in two short days because we can't get enough of talking to you. So until next time, when it gets hard to be brave, don't forget we can do hard things. And also more importantly, don't forget we can quit hard things every day.

Love you so much. Talk soon. Bye! I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyleon. I walk through fire I came out the other side. the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got once my and I continue to believe that I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I want the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So I'm of final destination

That we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe the best people are free

and it took some time but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on matter A final destination with that We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do a heartache. This world finished her rose and heart breaks on land. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stop asking directions. Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.