We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - (BEST OF) Why Date Nights Don’t Work (and What to Do Instead)

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

What if the goal of staying in love isn't getting to know your partner better—but learning how to un-know them? Glennon, Abby, and Amanda discuss why the same old dinner date can leave us feeling stuck, why novelty is one of the biggest predictors of lasting connection, and how small shifts can make your relationship feel new again. - Why date nights aren't enough - The science behind keeping the spark alive - How to create more curiosity, play, and adventure together - The "date bowl" idea you'll want to steal immediately Follow We Can Do Hard Things on:  Instagram — ⁠https://www.instagram.com/wecandohardthings⁠

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Pod Squad, one of the sneakiest lies about long-term love is this. If the spark fades, something must be wrong with your relationship. When that lie arises, when we think we've lost the spark, people give us one piece of advice, which is always this. Oh, you just guys, you guys just need to go on a date night. Just go on a date night. So we believe them.

We hire the babysitter. we make the reservation and then we sit across from each other at overpriced pasta wondering why this is making it worse because we have nothing to talk about and this somehow feels like work. And then sometimes we leave thinking maybe we've just lost our connection. Maybe we've grown apart. Maybe we're just incredibly boring. Maybe we have officially run out of things to say to each other and maybe this is just what we've become. But what if none of that has to be true?

true. What if the problem is that we've been asking date night to do a job it was never designed to do? That's what this conversation is about and it accidentally completely changed the way I think about connection. Because it turns out that the goal of falling in love is getting to know someone, but the goal of staying in love might be learning how to unknow them. So we talk about why traditional date nights can actually make us feel more disconnected, why novelty matters so much more than fancy dinners, what jealousy can teach us about aliveness, and why the couples who stay curious about each other, not just committed to each other, are the ones who keep growing. There are so many practical ideas in this one, from surprise adventures to parallel play, to our favorite date bowl

idea that make connections feel possible again without making it feel like another chore on your calendar. So if you've ever looked across the table at someone you deeply love and wondered, Now what do we talk about? Maybe that's the wrong question. You're going to want to listen to this one. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. If you want to know how to use time together in a way that brings you closer, I think that's what we're going to accomplish today. We're going to try. We're going to try. Sister's going to help us.

Okay. I just promised a lot of things, sister. Do you think that we can do those things? And is that actually what this episode is going to be about? I mean, a good portion. I think that, yes, it is using date night. as a way to understand what the hell's going on in our relationship and as a way to get closer in our relationship and with anyone that we love. So it feels like we all know date nights good.

People are like, yay, do date nights. But over half of us are not doing any date nights. And so whenever something like that happens, it's like, hmm, what's going on there? Because if we know they're supposed to be so good and everyone says you should have date nights, but over half of us are not doing date nights. Something is afoot. And I think that that's because date nights are broken for a lot of us. And it feels like the prescription is date night. That's the only prescription we have.

So everyone keeps writing the same prescription for date nights. But it's not actually fixing our problems. Yes. And I have a theory about this that maybe date nights are actually making things worse. And that's why we stopped doing them if we're not doing date nights correctly. Yeah, I understand that because I remember in a previous relationship, we would go to like, okay, let's say the quote doctor, the therapist,

because you said it's a prescription, right? We would go to the, and we would say we can't connect. We don't have physical intimacy. We don't have emotional intimacy. And the therapist would say would write out the little prescription of date night. And so we would go to a restaurant, which we couldn't afford, sit at a table and stare at each other, which only emphasized and made it more obvious and horrific that we had nothing to talk about, that we couldn't. It was horrible, actually. And also, there's so many problems just to start off with, like date night. Why does it have to be at night? I'm already out. Why not date afternoon? Right. Okay. This is true. And I think. what you're saying is exactly right. And in fact, when we started a therapy like one million years ago, that was on the first day. I was like, I swear to God, if you tell me to have more date nights,

I will stand up and walk out of here. Because my problem is not the ability to plan a few hours every couple of weeks. It's like, what I need you to do is get us to the place where we want to have a date together. And that when we have a date, you know, You'll be able to talk about things that are different than the things that we talk about every night when we're sitting at the table. So the date night isn't an exact replica of what you do every night except 10 times more expensive because you've paid a babysitter and you've paid for dinner. And now you're like, see, it's just as boring as ever. So let's not do date nights, which is why 50% of us don't do it. Okay.

Yeah. And then wait, wait, wait, just to set it up more. Because I want to talk a little bit about the challenges before we move on to like all the solution. Also the pressure of date night. Because would you say the problem that most people are trying to fix with date night is like there's so much adulting going on or there's so many distracting things that you're not connecting on a deeper level, whether that's emotional or physical? And so that's the presenting symptom that gets you to date night. But what I always used to remember too was the pressure of the physical intimacy at the end of the date night. So it's like this prescription like you're supposed to like all I could think about at dinner was. oh God, we're going to also have to make out afterwards. Maybe that was a personal problem. Same underlying thing.

But I think we should start with the state of the date night union. Okay. Let's just like set the table with that. Right. No pun intended. The very expensive table that we paid a babysitter for. Okay. So 2020, they did a poll of 2,000 parents of children aged 5 to 18.

And 3 and 10 could not even remember the last time they went on a date. with their partner. Okay, three out of ten, can't even remember it. Then 52% of those spouses reported that they, quote, never go on date nights with their spouses or only go on a few times a year. 48% had once or twice a month. Okay. Significantly, spouses who have frequent date nights are 15% more likely to report being very happy in their marriages. And, And one out of two who frequently go on dates report that they are highly satisfied with their sexual relationship. So we read those stats and we're like, oh, the answer is date nights. Look at all those things.

They're happier. The data shows three out of four report being highly committed to their relationship and not having a divorce if you have regular date nights. And to that I say, like, do we forget that correlation is not causation? Exactly. So if maybe these people are already happier and more connected, therefore they want to go on a date. Maybe they're less stressed out about money. Exactly. So they make date nights more affordable and interesting.

There's so many factors here that the date night is not the panacea that we are hoping for. And in fact, they find that simply having this quality time together as a couple is not enough to prevent a relationship from getting stale. And as you said, this professor Cheryl Harjumuk, I think is her name, she studies this stuff and she said that if you're already bored in your relationship or your relationship is stagnant, your dates will be two. So it's the same, I agree with you that I think that me dates are actually hurting our relationships instead of helping it because if you're like stuck in this routine and this same like old patterns over and over again. And then you go into all the effort and expense to try to get unstuck. But you end up recreating the exact same thing

on your dates. Isn't it just confirming your worst fear that you can't connect in your board? Yes. If not even a date night, not even all of this money is going to help you connect. So it's very tricky. So I have dove into all those research and I think that this is the answer. Oh. There are a few elements. One really main, main element that you have to have if you are trying to do this differently. Okay. The big idea is that the point of dating early on is to get to know someone. The point of dating long term into your relationship is to try to unknow them. Oh, that's good. Because if we already think, which many of us who have been with our people for 10 plus years, literally what is the point? If you already know exactly what's going to happen,

exactly what each of you were going to say, exactly how are you going to feel, there is no point in going on a date. Nope. Because there is no unknown. There is no surprise. There is no risk. Novelty. Yeah. But you have to try to set. the stage to make it possible to pretend like you don't know them. So the way you do that is novelty. You need surprise and you need novelty. This person, Dr. Aaron, studies this. And so the same circuits in your mind that are that puppy love situation are the same ones that happen when you do something new. So they did studies of, okay, they had 53 middle-aged couples and they saw how happy they were in their marriage.

Okay. It's like just baseline. I'm so happy with this. Then they made one group spend 90 minutes a week doing pleasant and familiar activities, things they normally do in their life. Like going out to dinner or going to some movie, whatever. And then they had the other half do 90 minutes a week on exciting activities. So they did things like go to concerts, skiing, hiking, dancing, something that was like totally outside of their norm that they weren't even necessarily comfortable with.

And after 10 weeks, they took the test and the exciting people had significantly greater increase in their marital satisfaction than the pleasant people. It was the excitement that did it. It wasn't the time, the exact same amount of time. It wasn't that they liked the activities. I mean, the other ones were more comfortable for them. It was the exciting factor. They even had things as simple as if you walk across a room, making a couple walk across a room back and forth. And then other couples have to tie their wrists and ankles together and crawl back across the room, trying to push a ball. The people who took part in the crawling with their arms together showed bigger increases in love and satisfaction with their relationship than the people who just walked back and forth. Okay. Is it the vulnerability?

Because when you say we do things that are comfortable over and over again, that sounds very familiar to me, in those comforting, same neurological paths, same, we're not having any moments of vulnerability together. Is it the vulnerability of a risky new situation, whether it's a concert or just like crawling across a thing? Is it shared vulnerability that creates more shared dopamine and connection? I mean, I think it depends on what you think about when you think about vulnerability. I think vulnerability is an element of surprise because for me, it's more about novelty and surprise. Yeah, same.

But I think vulnerability is necessarily. element of surprise because in surprise, there's always risk. Yeah. Risk. And in something you don't know, there's always risk. And precisely because you don't know how it's going to turn out. So to me, it just makes total sense. Why are we attracted to strangers?

Why do like half the people end up having affairs? It's because they don't know a stranger. Right. It's because they don't know them. And so your mind can be curious. and wonder about all the parts and fill in all the parts with all these other things that you don't actually know. Whereas the people that we're with forever, that coloring page is done. We finished it. We got all our data. We colored it in. It has been done. And we've been looking

at the page for a long as time. Right. And so there is nothing to be curious about. And so it's not our fault. Right. But we need to figure out ways to set it up so that, there is some element of surprise. It's like adventure. We went on an adventure last weekend. And I just felt like there was a different vibe. Yeah. In the whole car ride there.

And even the whole car ride back. Like first of all, like we had never done this thing before and we didn't know how it would go. And it was just for an overnight. So like I love an adventure. We do all become different people in different scenarios. I think the identity is much less solid than we think it is. It's always changing and fluid. And that makes sense that if you get people into different places and with different people and with different experiences, they become different parts of themselves well up.

And then we get to see our people fresh and new. And so it does make sense that it's like before we change the person, maybe we try changing the conditions. Yeah. And seeing if a different person emerges that excites us. But also a different person inside of us emerge. Exactly. I think it's the same. It's not just about feeling boredom with your partner or knowing them fully.

It's also feeling boredom within yourself. Totally. I mean, think about it, you guys. This is not rocket sites. It's why it's like a schick and a meme that middle-aged people are constantly searching Zillow. It's not because we're going to buy a different house. It's this idea that maybe something could be different. Maybe there could be a change.

Maybe there's something about my life and my future that I don't already know how it's going to be. And that is what we want in our partnerships, like the stagnation and the we already know everything there is to know is the problem. So how do we unknow our people? I love that framework. Let's figure out instead of the prescription of date night how it's been done, which does not help us unknow our person. How do we create time and experiences that help us unknow each other?

Exactly. Exactly. And if there's not a particular person in your life like a partner or if you have a partner that is unwilling to do any of this with you, the really good. news is that what Abby said is exactly right. It is the introduction of novelty and surprise and excitement into your life. That is a factor of change. So if you can get it within your relationship when both parties are having it, amazing. If you can't and you bring it into your own life, that then affects you and your relationship. So you can do any of these things. on your own. Or with your kids. They don't have to be with your partner. Or with your kids or with your

friends. Exactly. Okay. So these are some of the ideas that people had. Oh. First of all, if you've fallen in love at some point with your partner, you can go back to what that was that you used to do. There's like a memory spark. There's a whatever. You can go back to the original time and like recreate what you used to do together. That is, something that, if you have that, the other thing, something that has some excitement to it, something that has some risk. So physical things, like ice skating, snorkeling, roller skating, camping, even things that seem ridiculous, like throwing a ball back and forth and just talking. It's like something to shake you out of your normal routine. The vulnerability piece of trying

something new together that you don't already do, like painting or drawing or pottery, or even going on a hike so you're seeing different things that they're not in your normal purview. They had the idea of a surprise date where one person plans it and surprises the other person. I mean, for me, the elements are physical, moving my body in a different way than I normally do. That changes things up for me. and having out of my comfort zone physically and or out of the predictable from a conversation

standpoint because I just check out. Like I'm not even here anymore if it's not interesting. So we got like cards to ask questions. It's not like, oh, I'm coming up with them or he's coming up with them. It's just like a neutral third party has made this. thing because honestly, even bad surprises, I think are a net benefit. Totally. Is that true for you?

Like when you're like, I'm surprised and I don't even like that thing about you, but it feels better than feeling like I know everything there is to know about you. Even negative new information is intriguing. I feel like you just got some new negative information or at least like negative seeming information on our conversation on the car ride home the other night. And I feel like that that was net positive. Oh my God. Tell me.

Are we allowed to know? I can't. Okay. Okay. But I kind of want to say one sentence about it. Okay. So it was information about, I'll just say like past relationships. Okay.

Okay. That normally I would think would make me crazy and jealous and I don't want to talk about it. And a little bit it did, but it also made me feel very zingy. Like, oh, I see you. I remember you were a full human being before our adulting life wore us down. And also that you're capable of being jealous. Yes. That is a little bit of passion and unknown of being like, oh, I kind of want to kick her ass.

Yes. Look, I'm also alive. I know what that is. That's aliveness. That feeling. Exactly. Yeah, totally. And there's really cool ways of, as we've already established, you can spend $300 on a babysitter and a dinner and have it be a total fucking dud.

You could also spend $5 on a walk to get ice cream and it can be really perfect. That is the upside downside. But I think at least if you're in a rut, it's got to be pretty dramatically. different. And sometimes it can't be when you're not able to connect. It can't be like you two staring at each other, hoping to magically fix the problem in the next two hours. There needs to be maybe a third party. Like we just went on, my friend suggested it. She went on a date with her husband to a tree climbing, zip lining place. And I thought it was the clever thing, probably cost as much as dinner. And they didn't even go to dinner. They just went to do it. And then we did it last week.

And it was amazing. And I actually, like, I was watching John try, like, the hardest one. And I was like, damn, that's pretty hot. He's trying a hardest one. And I was pushing myself. And, like, it was cool. You know, when you never think that, looking across at your partner and being like, she's eating linguine again. Like that doesn't do it. And it's also like it makes me think a lot about teaching when kids. That is so right. Because it's so true.

Oh, she's ordering fucking pasta again. Here we go. I wonder what will be dessert. And meanwhile I'm calculating. I'm like doing the hours of the babysitting in my head every time I'm like, if we order dessert now, we can get the hell out of here and it won't be an additional 20 bucks. Yes. I eat breakfast standing over this thing.

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of specialized OCD treatment with licensed therapists trained in exposure and response prevention, or ERP, the most effective treatment available for OCD. Therapy with no CD is 100% virtual and covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If any of this sounds like you or someone you care about, visit nocd.com and book a free 15-minute call with their team to learn more about how no-cd can help. That's nocd.com. I think about what we learned about vulnerability and child development, right? And for many reasons, the idea of parallel play, like how people learn how to connect with each other is kids don't sit across from each other, staring each other in the eye and together come up with a mutual plan of how to build a Legos. They sit next to each other. And they're both, their bodies are engaged. And then like little moments of connection and spark come. And it's so precious. You can see it happening. But we forget that. Like I'll never forget when my kids said, I used to think when I was. when we need to have a serious talk or any kind of real talk, like a family moment where we got

to gather, we should all sit down on the couch, stare at each other, call it a family meeting, and nothing shuts down my family more. The second I sit everybody down on the couch, they start going, are we getting divorced? Is somebody getting divorced? Like, it brings up trauma of the hard conversations in the past. It shuts down people, especially if you are a person. person who's struggling to connect with your partner, both partners know that. That is the underlying like thing bubbling in the relationship. So when you sit down at a table and stare at each other,

people panic and you don't even know you're panicking, but you see it as a test of your relationship. Yes. It's not loose. It's not free. The person who thinks that they're the reason they can't connect panics more and can't open up because they're in fight or flight. So I think if we measured all of the bless their heart couples who are out to dinner, we would see that their nervous systems are frozen. We would see that all their shame is rising up. And we would see how disembodied it is. Yeah.

What you're talking about with like the movement and the walking, you know, how they say every emotional problem can be solved physically. like it makes sense that movement parallel play would foster the conditions to let the connection come instead of the forcedness of staring at each other in the eyeballs. Yes. Yes. If you can't figure out how to enjoy each other, you can both parallel play enjoy something together. Yeah. And you are doing something together. I remember such a fun, quirky thing. John planned a date one time where we live outside of Washington, D.C., like two miles. And he planned a date where we took the on-off tourist bus all over Washington, D.C. And it was so much fun.

And, you know, there was people from India and Texas and whatever. They're all like, where are you from? We're like, see that house? We're from right there. And it was so fun. And we learned all this stuff about our city that we'd never learned before. It was so cheap. And it was great. We both came back so happy. And we were just sitting beside each other. Like it's not like we were talking about anything. So there's fun, fun things. Cool.

That you can do that way. You unnew your city. You dated your city. Yes, we unknew our city. Yeah. That's right. That's really cool. That's right.

I think it can be a vicious cycle or a virtuous cycle. Like the vicious cycle is we have nothing to talk about. We're so bored. I guess we need a date night. We go on a date night. We still have nothing to talk about. We're still so bored. So we realize, I guess that's just our life and our relationship.

And I'm going to stop magnifying and illuminating that by going on date nights. Yes. You have confirmed duress fears vicious cycle. Then you can have a virtuous cycle, potentially, where you are just, it's going to be so fucking awkward. It's going to be so awkward. I'll tell you what is really awkward. The first time John and I did a close.

couple's meditation together. We sat down staring at each other's faces. Oh, wow. With our eyes open. And I was sweating and I was trying so hard not to laugh. So awkward, awkward, awkward. Also, I don't think that we would be able to do that. Amazing. I don't think that you'd be able to stare at my eyes. Extended eye contact is tricky for me. I won't lie. Yeah. Oh my God. It's crazy. but that was so unexpected that it was interesting. I think I have a suspicion that people's problems are not that they don't like their person as much as they're not interested in them. Yeah.

Right. And the reason they're not, you know what? People say like, I don't know. Are you, oh, I'm interested in him. I'm interested in her. That means I want to get with them, right? I find them interesting. They interest me. Therefore, I'm paying attention to them. If someone doesn't interest you, they're not capturing your attention. You're not giving them attention. They're not interesting to you because you think you know everything already. You think you know exactly what they're going to

fucking say. You know exactly what they're going to do. There's nothing to be interested in. You've exhausted it. But if you can force yourself into awkward situation, If you can ask questions you've never asked and be okay with the answer, it gets more interesting. Well, what's curious about that is that it's not even about the other person. It's like how I want to feel is interested. Yeah. It's not even like, do I like that? Is that person blah, blah, blah.

Is that person blah blah blah. It's like, oh, no, actually, this is about how I want to feel, which is, makes sense. If you throw yourself into a vulnerable situation, it's about how you feel in that moment. Okay. So one of the things I feel like that's a challenge for us. Us meaning you and me? Yeah. And maybe all couples is that there's usually like a realm where one person is way more vulnerable and the other person is not. Okay. So for a very obvious example, I would give you throwing a ball back and forth. When you say that to me, I'm like, okay, I can tell who will be really vulnerable. And I, as a person who did not during the early years of my life,

learned to have a lot of agency in my physical prowess. I'm joking about it, but it's real. Yeah. It's like, if I'm at a soccer game and the ball comes to me on the sideline as a mom, I have a full on internal panic. Yeah. I don't know how to kick this back and not look like I don't know what I'm doing. Also, my ideal date would be like going to a museum. There is a vulnerability in that that Abby has, but I wouldn't. You know, so like I get confused about for whom, sometimes the vulnerability is only for one person based on the kind of date you're choosing.

Yeah. No, that's a really good point. point. So you have to either try to pick something that is neutral ground, especially if you have a power dynamic issue in your relationship. It certainly wouldn't fit to have the one person bearing all of the novelty and the vulnerability. So either something that is brand new to both of you or something that is more balanced. It also brings up another point, which is that I can buy the prescription for date night for this reason. And you touched on it earlier, about like the expectation.

So the research shows that often the ineffectiveness of date nights comes from it being a one-off thing because it's like so much pressure that we think we're going to go on one date night and it's going to do these wonders for our relationship and it's going to reap all these rewards that the benefit of having it be like a set thing in your life is that one can be kind of a dud, but you're not looking at that as confirmation that you shouldn't do date nights, that it's a regular part of your life. So you're not setting it up to these unrealistic expectations. And it can also be a way that maybe you alternate. Maybe there's something that you're being vulnerable the next time. Yeah. It is the painting class or the next time it's whatever.

I also think that it totally depends on the relationship. Like you're saying, I'm going to be too vulnerable and not throwing the ball situation. And that's like you are paying the price for that. There are some relationships where being the vulnerable one who isn't as good at the thing is actually really good for your relationship because you're watching your partner kill it in something that you aren't very good at. And that's good. That is good. When I was watching John do the ropes course and I was like, God damn. Look at that. Yeah. I can't do that. That's cool. You know, like I needed to see him do something better than I was doing. And that was good. That tracks. That's really cool. I also like the tip of it not having to be at night. Truly. That sounds silly. But it's also

anything that feels prescriptive and doesn't fit you, like how many of us are not at our best at nighttime. Like, that is just a totally arbitrary. This can be date breakfast. It can be date mid-afternoon. It can be date 3 p.m. And then also one of my favorite suggestions, which is less, a little bit less relevant now to me, but was always the, this, maybe this isn't a problem for anyone else. But it's like the anticipatory mandatory makeout session after can kind of put this weird pressure on the whole thing, especially for couples that have intimacy issues. So if that's a goal, I really like, this is so crass, but the fuck first. It's good. It's called fuck first. It's like if that's an important part of it and there's like kind of a loaded thing around it, just if it's important

to you, just do it first. Then go off on your thing without that. Got to get back in time because else it's going to be like one o'clock in the morning by the time I get to go to sleep. Yeah. And then it's like, are we connecting enough during this to make that feel natural? Is this successful enough to make it feel like it's the cherry on the Sunday? Or is this even a Sunday enough to make the, it's too much, you know? I also think that just underscores the fact that we think that date night is a silver bowl. it. And if that isn't happening, if it feels obligatory in, then it's the wrong type of date night. Yeah. Also, if that really is the point, if that is your ritual, that you do that after date night,

and the date night isn't happy for either of you, then maybe you could just not do the date night and have the conversation and say, like, wait, are we just doing this to like mark the calendar essentially for when we're going to make out? So, like, why don't we just make out? And then decide what we actually want to do. Yeah. And maybe it's different shit. Maybe it's different things from each other. But I do feel like I should mention there are other reasons other than novelty that people desire day nights.

And you might see yourself in other reasons. Like for me, it's that idea of change from the ordinary. But some people's desire is like demonstrating appreciation. like devoting the time. People might feel like the way I know that I'm important and prioritized for my partner is that they make time for a date night with me. Or they demonstrate that they are grateful for me by thinking about what I would like to do. So that is not like, I am my list of priorities because I already have that in my life.

But people, if that is like your thing that you feel like is missing, they, do recommend that harkening back to the early days of falling in love, like plan a new date based on your best old dates, that way you used to do. And that is like reconnecting to those core memories of when you first felt like super appreciated, super known, et cetera. Also like playing the game of, I imagine a perfect date for me would be X. A perfect date for me would be why. Like saying that allows the other person to know and also allows you to learn something more about them and use that in the future. And then like a favorite things date where you can plan a date or they can plan a date around some of your favorite things that

shows that they're paying attention, shows that they know you. I like the idea of over time, if there were, Pod Squatters listening that would maybe want to like juice it up a little bit and try the idea of novelty, which in itself is tricky. As someone who tends to think what I want to do is spend my time with my people in comfort. Like for me, comfortability is so what I tell myself is the most important, which leads us to do the same things over and over and over again, which I have. have noticed, I'm a person who wants to watch the same movie 60 times because I know how it ends so I can relax. But I have noticed that memory making, if I do the same things with my cozy

family like 30 nights in a row, I love it. Happy, happy, happy. I don't remember shit. The memories, what crystallizes are weird times when we did something different. So there's Something about memory, if making memories is important to you with your people, this is a surefire way to do it. And it's almost like sometimes when I'm doing something novel with Abby or the kids, I tell myself, I don't know if this is fun right now. I don't know if I'm having a good time, but in retrospect, this is going to be great. There's some kind of like retrospect benefit that doesn't feel always like in the moment. joy and perfect and comfort because doing something new isn't comfortable, right? Right.

Anything could be comfort. Something bad and not good can be comfortable because it's predictable and known. Exactly. That is the risk of things that like everything collapses into a long gray line, right? In life. Yes, the long gray line. And if it's everything collapses behind you in a long gray line, then everything in front of you looks like a long line.

Yes. And when you mix it up and like you present these, whether they're challenges or just mixing it up, you are bonding. There's a little like proof of life like bing. Yes. Like a medical chart on the long gray line. And when there is those and you can look back and see them, then the future looks like it might have those two. One thing that while listening to you both talk, I think that it's really important for the pod squad to hear me when I say this.

As a spouse, especially somebody who came in later to a three children family, one of the things, one of the challenges I feel at times is that the thought process and the dedication towards. creating and cultivating these lasting memories with our children, that feels to me like it's so much on the forefront of your mind. And I think probably, sister, this is relevant to you too, that you're so obsessed at creating such a beautiful existence and creating these novel experiences for the kids that I do feel like sometimes that our relationship does get put on the back burner and that it is secondary to the kids experience. Totally. I know exactly what you mean. I feel like that's totally true. Yeah. And I think that probably a lot of husbands might feel this way, that they become secondary or even like fourth place in the thought process

of a family dynamic. And being a person who sometimes has that thought like, oh, and of course, life happens and things are going on and I understand. It's understandable why that happens. But just like if you could bring the spouse to like the second position every once in a while and be like, shit, okay, what do they want to do? What is their best interest? And to just even talk about it with your spouse, I think it would make a world of a difference. Because when you do have a family, there are these, like, the ways in which we all think about our children, we think about our spouse, it's always in flux. But if you feel like you're never in the position of, like, most important, the thing that occupies the mind of your spouse, like, I do think that that could

go a long way in the planning of these dates, in the planning of just like the family to single out this one-on-one time so that you two can. can create this moment that goes black and white and crystallizes this memory forever, I think that that would go an incredibly long way with your spouse. And I think what we're saying is that it's like all the birds at one time, right? I think I used to think like, okay, got to put some date nights on the calendar. So we're like checking that box over there. And then I should probably do something that makes me come alive because I know that's important

and I know that none of my relationships will work out unless I have like a little bit that comes alive and got to make sure that John is like doing some of that on his own and because then if he dies inside them, we're all fucked too. Like it's like, wait, what? No, all of those things are one thing. Yes. They can be. If your date night is not satisfying you, stop fucking doing it. And if you're not doing date nights because they haven't been satisfying, start doing it and do it in a very different way. Go on a walk with your dog. And the rule is you can't talk about. And, anything that you've talked about before. But that feels like if we just took away the date night thing, because date night speaks to me like you are saying. I have to do all. I have to play. I have to come

alive. I have to be human. And then I also have to eat linguine on Tuesday afternoons, Tuesday night and stare at my partner. It's a different, it makes it feel like it's this thing, this box we have to check. If we just called it like playtime together, how do I play with my husband or partner? I think that's because that's so varsity for a lot of. I think that's because that's so varsity for a lot of people who don't even know how to talk about something other than who's going to do pick up and drop off. I think play is so intimidating that you have to like take steps to get to the place where you know not that the prescription is date night, but that the prescription is trying to get to a place where you crave spending time and playing

with your partner. I guess it takes away the emphasis of talk to me. Like even that you said like talk, it doesn't have to be about talk. Talk. Talk. Talk. It can be something you feel like playing around with that you would do in your own human time to explore. It's totally arbitrary this whole date night thing. I mean, I think we call it that because traditionally, and typically there are two people outside the home working all the time. And so the only time you have is nights and you don't want to cook so you go to dinner. Like I think that's why we call it that. But it's very similar to the idea of the play date phenomenon with children, right? This was like an invention of the 90s. This never happened before. The reason why this happened is because we stopped having free play.

Right. Because we became so over-scheduled and so overstructured and we stopped being in community. And guess what we know. Guess what happens on play dates. Exactly what you think is going to happen. The kids know exactly what's going to happen because the play date has been set up by the mom and the mom says, I'm going to pick up it this time. And then I'm going to take them to the pottery class. And after the pottery class, they're going to go to that

playground for half an hour. And then I'm going to give them popsicles and send them back home. Okay, they know exactly what's going to happen. This is not exciting. This does not have the elements of play that are beneficial to kids, which works with risk, collaboration, unknown. Okay, what we need in our relationships is free play. Not play dates. It's good. And not date. And not date nights. We need to be able to not know exactly what's going to be said, to open our minds to the possibility that we don't know everything about our person and that our person doesn't know everything about us. And we don't even know everything about us because that is where the

excitement in life happens. And that's when there's a future that makes any goddamn sense because it gives us a window to figure all that out. Yep. So here's how I would do this practically to overcome because there is this thing we all know. Everything you just said, this is correct. This is exactly it. Okay. And then when you try to put it into practice, your exhaustion, your inertia, your tendency towards the most comfortable thing kicks back in. And you're like, I remember that idea, but no thank you. It's going to be, you know, Netflix tonight. That's what happens. So in order to take what we know and not unknow it and add this back in, I think it would be cool to, over time with your person, whoever you're doing this with,

whether it's a friend or your kid or your partner or whatever, to like brainstorm a bunch of weird things you could do together. Okay? Just 25 things, 30 things, whatever. Thinking none of these things I have to do today, right? Just like, whether it's throw a ball outside, walk the dog together, take a bungee jump, whatever the hell, okay? and then I would put them in a bowl.

And then I would pick one each week. Would you put bungee jump in a bowl? I would not. That's a different episode, but no, I'm not going to fucking budge jump ever. I don't care how vulnerable it is. There's a difference between vulnerable and stupid.

Okay? Life is terrifying enough without throwing yourself off buildings. If she ever agrees to bungee jump, you know your marriage is in real trouble at. She's desperate as hell. It's not going to. Do you know what I do? mean, I cannot and will not deal with any more decision fatigue in my family. I cannot talk about

what we're going to have for dinner tonight. I cannot talk about even what we're going to watch on Netflix. So the same thing with food. Let's have 25 things that we all like in a bowl and we pick one out. That's right. That's what we do. Like I can be creative and think of myself in a certain way as someone who does something new for like an hour on Sunday, which is the time that I can make up all these little pieces of paper that go into a bowl. We could do that on Sunday. and then you pick it all out, you pick out for the week, and then you can go to the grocery store and get it. I love this idea.

Same idea for date night. Like, it's too bad. Nobody sits and decides what they feel like doing this week because you're never going to feel like roller skating with your person or whatever. No one feels like doing anything. Let's be honest. No one feels like doing anything. Ever.

But it's like this idea that I just can't figure out in my life ever. It's like always, I want to be free. I want to play. I want to whatever. I want to be wild and open. Which requires discipline. It's true. It's so weird. There is a discipline that goes into requiring of yourself to make time for play. Yeah. Until you catch up with yourself and to crave it. Exactly. It's like exercising where you force yourself to do it until your body's like, ooh, you know what would feel good right now? Lifting those weights.

Yeah, but here's the thing. I also think that like there's still never a day that I want to go work out, but I am always 100%. I'm so glad that I did that. And I think that this is the same thing. It's like you might not feel like going to do something. But I think with like date nights or whatever we want to call this, I think that afterwards you're like, oh, that wasn't the worst thing in the world. There's going to be duds. And it's going to suck. I know I just said walk the dog, but we tried to do a date once where we walked the dog. And it was one of those worse than not going on a dates. the dynamic of the dog. I can already guess it. Trying to get to heal. And the whole time I was like, oh my God, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. Hold on a second.

Did it bring up like, because this is the typical date night to me. So you're like, I want to connect with my person. We're going to take the dog for a walk. And then the dog can't walk right. And it's pulling. And then all you're thinking is,

this is right. We never know how to train people. This is an example of why we are not a good couple. The thing that you're doing highlights. all of your problems. Right. So everything is not going to, like that is something we shouldn't do as date nights anymore. We're not doing that.

Or that's not a date for us. We're doing something other than that without being like, you've got to give yourself a break and not be like, this is a receipt for how shitty proof that we should never be doing it. You got to expect you're going to have some strikeouts until you find something that is. And I love your little ball idea. And I think even better you could make it. as you ease into this, things that have parameters. Like has to be maybe at first something that takes half an hour or less.

And $30 or less. Something within it that so you have to like little bites. Yeah. Little bites to make you hungry for more. I like that. So like you could code them. The blue index cards are ones that if we have a half hour. The green ones are if we have $100 extra.

Mm-hmm. And then here's my other tip. Because any, like, new thing that I'm trying, this is what I tell myself. Because I have a double consciousness always of I'm in a moment, but then I'm judging the moment. I'm saying, is this working? Is this worth it? Are you still doing that? So what I tell myself is, if I'm trying something brand new, like therapy, a new therapy or a new way of life, whatever, I will give this six months. I will not judge these things by one thing at a time.

It's like putting yourself out of a job. It's actually quite wonderful. I will just, because you can't, these sorts of experiences are cumulative. You can't expect that you're going to go do this sort of situation and an hour later, you're going to feel so bonded. You're going to be whatever. But it is this sort of thing that if you commit to it over time, you might notice six months later that you have a little more softness or that you're a little bit lighter or that you're a little bit lighter or that you, you know, despise your person a little bit less. Whatever you're going for. It might happen over time. Whatever's your particular threshold. So it could be like, we're going to try this for three months, six months, whatever. And let's just tell ourselves that we can judge the shit out of this on this date. But that we don't have to even think about that before. That's smart. I like that. Thanks, babe. I love it. I want to go on a date now.

Great. Let's make a bowl. I really am excited about this. And then also, let's do this. I think that this could be a great wide service to the pod squad. I really think, what if we had people write in or call in about what they're putting in their bowls? The date ideas. Yeah.

Because we shouldn't have to just do it all ourselves. Also, can you send in dinner ideas? Okay, let's do that in a different episode. But also movie ideas, please, because every time nothing makes me more crazy. I never watch TV. I never watch movies. And then we have a chance. And it's as if all the TV and all the movies have disappeared.

I need a bowl with those. So we just reach in and we don't spend a half an hour talking about it. And now I'm tired anyway. I'm going to bed. That's so true. This is a really good app. Somebody make this app where it's like you log it all of these ideas and it keeps them in the buckets. And then it just like pulls out the ball or the thing.

And it tells you. And then it takes away responsibility of I want to do this. You want to do this. It's like, no, this is what we're doing. Okay. Call in 747-200-5307. Tell us your creative, bonding, enlivening, unknowing your partner or your kids or your friends. Activities.

What do you do to unknow your people better? And also if there's things that you know that make you come alive a little more, throw those at us too, because if they work for individual, they will work for joint. Yeah, which reminds me of something Esther Perel used to always say, which is like we look to our partners to like turn us on, right? where she always says, how do you turn yourself on? Your job is not to come to your partner and stare at them and wait for them to turn you on. Like, well, it's not working. You could do that, but good luck, right? It's like, what turns you on and then you approach your partner already turned on?

And like, I don't necessarily mean like erotica, although great if that's it. but also like maybe creativity, maybe rest, maybe, I don't know what it is that makes you feel alive and then you approach your person. But like your turned onness is your responsibility. And that feels like this a little bit. And if you already know what is missing, if you already know rest is missing. If you already know the one thing you would really love to do is go to the library or the bookstore and wander around and find a book. And you're not doing that because you think you need to invest in your relationship, I can guarantee you that that knowing and not doing is a major problem in your relationship.

Yeah. And the skipping over it to try to devote the time to the relationship, you can't trick yourself. Mm-hmm. So just go to the library or to the bookstore and roam around and do that. And I guarantee your relationship will be better than going and doing some boring-ass date night because you feel like that's what you should do, even though you know you want to go to the library. There he is. Eaton his fucking linguine again. All right. Pod Squad, we love you. We'll see you back next time. We are proud to say that We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you

by us, Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.