We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Billie Jean King: Abby’s Hero Shares Her Hardest Battle

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

1. How Billie Jean could not live as her full authentic self until age 51. 2. The moment Billie Jean knew that Abby was not okay after her USWNT retirement.  3. How to visualize a reality that doesn���t yet exist – so you can be it, even when you don’t see it.  4. How Billie Jean numbed herself through an eating disorder and how she recovered by not being a “good girl.”  5. Why Billie Jean does not regret her pre-Roe abortion, and the degrading process she endured to access it.  CW // eating disorders discussion   About Billie Jean:  Named one of the “100 Most Important Americans of the 20th Century” by Life magazine and a 2009 recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Billie Jean King is the founder of the Billie Jean King Leadership Initiative, founder of the Women’s Tennis Association and the Women’s Sports Foundation and part of the ownership group of the Los Angeles Dodgers, Angel City FC and the Philadelphia Freedoms. King also serves on the board of the Women’s Sports Foundation. In her legendary tennis career, King captured 39 Grand Slam singles, doubles and mixed doubles titles, including a record 20 Wimbledon championships. Her historic win over Bobby Riggs in the 1973 Battle of the Sexes, is one of the greatest moments in sports history. In 2017, Fox Searchlight released the critically acclaimed film, Battle of the Sexes, which depicts the cultural and social impact of the groundbreaking match.  In September 2020, King became the first woman to have an annual global team sports event named in her honor when Fed Cup – the women’s world cup of tennis – was rebranded as the Billie Jean King Cup. Her memoir, ALL IN: An Autobiography, is available now. TW: @BillieJeanKing IG: @billiejeanking To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yeah, I just want her number one. Like, I want to be as gentle and loving to this person who deserves it. If I could be with her in the studio, I would have pillows and I would get her water. Billie Jean King is the icon of icons as it relates to not just women's sports, but what I emulate myself after. This is the woman who has fought for a half century so that I could have the life that I have and that I could have played on the stadiums and stages that I played on. It's not lost on me. How meaningful and stages that I played on, it's not lost on me. How meaningful she is to the world and specifically to my life.

I think about women's soccer and I think about where we are now. The Federation of Spain just signed a deal with their men and women's team that they're now gonna have equal pay. And that's because of the women's national team. And that's because of Billie Jean King. That's right. Like, there is a very short line to the success

of women's sports and every element of it comes from Billie Jean King, like truly it does. And she's gonna say all of the women that came before her and the people that helped her, yeah, that's great, but like it's Billie Jean King. She is the one that planted the flag in the ground and said, we deserve better. And she has made it her mission in life and gave me kind of the platform to be able to say, this is what I want to also do for my life in my retirement. She's a baller. She is the baller. And to be able to be queer doing it,

you got to do your dream and be who you were at the same time, which is a wild, a beautiful thing. And I know how hard it was for me at the early stages of my career to go back decades for the life that she had was stepping into and how different the world was then. I mean, this woman is a icon. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. My like dream guest is with us today. Billie Jean King is here.

She's here with us today. And Billie, I have to just say this, first and foremost, you have very much changed the course of my life. And really, you have been the person I have always looked up to. This is the first and maybe only podcast I feel a little nervous doing because of how much you have specifically directly affected my life and the lives of so many other women athletes and women everywhere and men. But I just want to thank you so much for what you've done for me and for women's soccer

and for all of women's sports. You are the person who has been the bridge to help us get to where we are. And I'm going to cry a little bit because it means so much to me. It makes me cry. And you have changed our lives. You've changed our lives. I just thank you for being here and I'm maybe I won't talk as much because I'm a little bit shell shocked, but thank you for being here.

You okay? Yeah, my God. Wow. Philly, this never happens. Thank you so much. It's like wow, I gotta go take that away and absorb it. Well, I had no idea. Oh yeah. I've always looked up to you and you're such a great soccer player and you care about others and everything you've done on those headers you used to make. Oh my God, and you're so strong and you're so quick and you care about things and, oh, geez.

So I've always admired you so much. I had no idea. So thank you. I can die happy now. OK, me too. One of the 100 most important Americans of the 20th century by Life Magazine. And a 2009 recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Billie Jean King is the founder of the Billie Jean King Leadership Initiative, founder of the Women's Tennis Association and the Women's Sports Foundation, and part of the ownership group of the Los Angeles Dodgers, Angel City FC, and the Philadelphia Freedoms. King also serves on the board of the Women's Sports Foundation. In her legendary tennis career, King captured 39 grand slam singles, doubles, and mixed doubles titles. I'm sorry, it's so wild that I just, I've never laughed when reading someone's bio. That's all right, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh in championships. Her historic win over Bobby Riggs in the 1973 Battle of the Sexes is one of

the greatest moments in sports history. In 2017, Fox Searchlight released the critically acclaimed film Battle of the Sexes, which depicts the groundbreaking match. Her memoir, All-In, an autobiography, is available now, and Billie Jean Abbey will tell you, I spent a solid week doing nothing but reading your memoir from first page to last page, underlining I had so many spiritual experiences reading your memoir. And then I wrote out our whole interview and Abbey said,

should we also ask her about sports? And so then we have to change it. Billie Jean, one of the things that struck me so much in the beginning of your memoir and your childhood was that you have this saying, you have to see it to be it. But when you were young, you wanted to be something that you have this saying, you have to see it to be it. But when you were young, you wanted to be something that you couldn't see. But you somehow instinctively knew you had to see it, so you imagined it. You tapped into the power of visualization as a young girl. You couldn't see what you wanted to be in the world, so you just started dreaming it up. Can you talk to us about the power of visualization when we cannot see what we want to be?

As a child, I had so many dreams and I did, I could see it. I just dreamed, once I got into tennis, which is my last sport, it'd grow be crazy because we're called amateurs and yet we're the best players in the world. And of course, I grew up around pro sports. And so I'm thinking, we gotta be pro, we can't be that. So all these things are going through my brain. But I wanted to be number one.

We didn't have tennis on television, we didn't have social media. I had books. That's all I had. So I would go get books. And I realized how little they gave to women. There's always about all the male champions. And then there'd be a chapter on the women. So that bothered me.

So I thought, if I ever get a chance, I'm going to change that. Once I started to get in there, being number one's easy. I can picture when he wimbleed in. I would dream about it. I would keep the books in bed with me. I always wanted to be somebody by Althea Gibson there. She was number one in the world's first black player ever male or female to win a major. And I'd really admired her because I knew her road to victory was much harder than it would ever be. black player, ever male or female, to win a major.

And I'd really admired her because I knew her road to victory with much harder than it would ever be for a white girl. I just kept dreaming about getting that woman plate above my head, because in the old days, you had to win in Wembleton to be number one in the world. And what's so interesting is that you didn't stop at tennis. You, in your retirement from tennis, you helped other sports, specifically women's national team. I actually got in touch with Julie Fowdy this week. I wanted to

get specifics because you and Julie have been very close. And I asked her, how did Billy inspire you and the women's national team to get better contracts? And she said, well, I got in touch with Billy in the mid-90s when we were having all these issues with US soccer, team to get better contracts. And she said, well, I got in touch with Billy in the mid 90s when we were having all these issues with US soccer, trying to get paid, trying to get wages, healthcare, all of these things. And you said this thing to her, well, imagine a blank slate, Julie, imagine the most beautiful, truest vision of soccer.

And that stayed with her. And what was so special to Julie that she wanted me to to mention is that you didn't just like offer advice and go away. You've stuck with Julie and with all of these other sports helping women's hockey and ensuring all of these things that kind of keep echoing through the world. I just think that your impact just has gone so far. Could you imagine the world that we're in now 50 years ago? The women sports world? Yeah, the women sports world. I'm so antsy.

And so we're so slow. If you watch softball on ESPN and they get great ratings, everybody says, oh, the softball is so great. It's great ratings. And it is. It's for college, right? And I go, yeah, but what bothers me and makes me itch. We don't have a pro league anymore. We've never had a proper pro league for them. But as far as tennis, I learned a lot through tennis actually because we actually did it and then when you live it and get it done, it stays with you forever.

The most important thing it stays with you forever. The most important thing, and most people don't understand this, is that it's the original nine, and 1970 is everything. That is the birth of women's professional tennis. And it was so difficult from 1968 when we got open tennis, which means professional, finally, got paid. Pittance compared to the men right off the bat. So I'm going, oh, God. Now we got to worry about that too. But men own the tournaments. They run the associations, the governing bodies, all that. And they started dropping tournaments. Or if they kept them, they gave us less and less money. So it was getting horrible. And my former husband, Larry, he said,

you know, if you go pro, if tennis goes pro, the men will want everything. I go, oh, no, they're my friends because we'd played together and he was absolutely correct. I was absolutely wrong. And it was very tough times because these are guys I really like and had spent a lot of time with them dancing, having dinners, you know, practicing together. So it was really, really hard. And finally, there were nine of us who signed a $1 contract

with Gladys Helman, who was the publisher of World Tennis Magazine. And that is the birth of Women's Professional Tennis September 23rd, 1970. I'll never forget it. And anytime a woman in tennis, I don't care what level of tournament it could be at the beginning or it could be at the very top. Every time they get a check, the money is because of that day. And that's why it's still relevant to me, because every time I see, okay,

swi-tech just won the French. You know, and I think she won $2.1 million. I know that day in 1970 is the reason she's getting that money. And then we fought for equal money at the majors and we got it. And what's important about financial equality is it sends the right message to that we're worth it. We deserve it. And also if you think about women all over the world, and if they ever hear this information

and they go, wow, they get the same. Maybe I should start asking for, or maybe we should be entrepreneurial, but it really makes a difference. And then men who care about us also will be feminist and fight for us just as much as the women. And another thing is that when women lead, they lead for everyone. And for some reason, everybody thinks when we lead, it's only for women, you never say that about a guy. You're like, oh, he's leading for men. He's really helping those guys out.

I mean, would you ever hear that? Never. So it's really important that when we lead, that's the reason we don't have a woman president, is that when we lead women, they keep thinking we're only leading for women. That's right. And only fighting for women. And it gets me crazy.

What I think is so amazing of what you just described in terms of you planting the seeds for generations to come is that it was never about you individually and your persona. You were always thinking so many steps ahead. So you had this very unique gift of being able to imagine this blank slate with no barriers. You could imagine it, but you also had a gift of very strategically operating

within the reality of all the barriers. Yeah, you do have to take in the reality. And sometimes it's not fun. And you can do both at the same time. So when you were asked, are you a feminist? By a journalist, you immediately knew that if you said, yes, I'm a feminist, you would lose 75% of the people who you were starting to get to support your long-term vision.

So you said, I am for the women's movement. Right. And I had a nanosat. That was right before the King Riggs match. And I knew this, I would never get, it's big an audience again, the rest of my life. So I had imagined what it would be like afterwards. I cannot tell you how much time I put in on that. Because if I lost, I'll say,

oh, you know, that lady over there, she lost that old guy. They won't remember our names. And that would be the rest of my life because every single day since that match, someone has brought the match up every single day. So you could imagine how, I knew how important it was.

And Title IX had just been past the year before. I wanted that to stay strong and really start rocking, because I knew it was going to take a long time for it to go into effect. And so I didn't want to go backwards there. I wanted women to believe in themselves. I'm not ever ready to believe in themselves, but what came out of that match,

because it was about social change, it was about sports, it was really more about social change, cultural change, a different dynamic in the way people started thinking. I mean, women just, they gained so much self confidence, they'd come up to me. I was giving up on life that I, you, I saw that match and I said, is she gonna do that? I can do it. They said, change your life forever. And then others have said, I, for the first time asked for a raise.

I've been waiting and waiting and I just didn't have the guts for the courage to do it. They asked for a wage. Then I go, well, more importantly, to do get it. And they go, actually we did. Or I get, yes. And I'm like, and they'd waited 10 years, these people I was talking to. And then men come up to me and sometimes they actually are crying. And they go, I never thought about things, but you know,

my daughter, my nouts, their granddaughters, everything they go, wow. I really started thinking, of course, I wanted to have equal everything. I wouldn't die. But I, you know, I didn't really think about it that much. I didn't wake up. And I think very differently how I go through each day with my children now. I'm Jonathan Menevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I wanna talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore.

You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

I for one, I'm always moved by how honestly you speak. As a woman who has had an abortion and does not regret it, I was deeply grateful for how you talked about your abortion in your memoir and in the world. So you got pregnant at a time in which your marriage was shaky and you were beginning to see your professional dreams come true and you knew it was not the right time. And even when your abortion was made public and mismagazine without your knowledge or consent. That's my Larry did that Larry's fault right. Well, it was I wasn't happy. Explain to us how that happened.

And then you did say recently when I see hard one rights being re-argued and pulled back today, it makes me wonder if people remember how difficult things were before. We have such a short memory. So your abortion occurred two years before Roe v Wade. Tell us how difficult things were then and why it's so important to remember. I'm fortunate because we had enough money. If you're rich, you can always get an abortion. Nobody will ever hear about it. Everything's fine. But it's really the people who have, are under-resourced that really suffer the most. People should know if we lose out on Roe versus Way,

we are going backwards because, particularly for women who are under-resourced. It's right. It's always about money when you usually get down to it. But for me personally, I've been asking Larry for a divorce since 1969, and this was 1971. And yet I still love seeing him. Obviously, we made love because I got pregnant. And I was trying to figure out who I am, you know, my gay and my bisexual.

I didn't know. When I got pregnant, I knew I should not have this maybe, it's not the right time because to me, if you bring a child into the world, it's the most important thing, the most. But it was terrible. First of all, it was outed and no one wants to come out unless on their own term.

But as far as having a child at that time in my life, I would not want to bring a baby into the world at that time. And I do not regret it. I did the right thing for me at the time. There seems to be this thread through all of your life and work, which is both thinking one and two and three generations forward. But also you talk about so much about the importance of knowing our history, to understand

ourselves and to help us get where we're going. And I don't think in this moment that many of us truly understand what it was like pre-row. You were resourced, you were the most privileged, but you talk about how that was one of the most degrading experiences of your life because you actually had to go in front of a hospital committee, right? And you had to get the sign-off of your husband, and we're in this point where we're backsliding so much. Can you talk about the reality of what you had to go through? It was terrible.

And I remember when we walked in the room, Larry was right behind me, and he goes, this is absolutely ridiculous. You should not have to, nobody should have to go through this. I mean, who are they to make a decision for me? It was horrible. And it was degrading. And I thought to myself, God, and I'm one of the lucky ones, because I'm not in a black out back alley.

I'm having an abortion by a doctor or a person who does not know what they're doing. And you can die from that. I don't think that's right. It's her body. I don't know what it is about people, but they think that women shouldn't have control over their own body's period. They're always talking about us. Have you ever noticed that? We never talk about guys and vasectomies and this, have you heard anything about that yet? I haven't. And I'm like, well, why don't we talk about that? And guys mostly are the ones that get up there

and tell us what we're supposed to feel, what we're supposed to think. And I'm like, stop. No one knows what another human being is going through. Only the person does. So I just cannot believe how they're so judgmental. And I think judge not the eB judge. They're usually very religious a lot of them.

I mean, I was very religious at one time in my life. I get it, but don't judge other human beings. You really don't know what they're going through. You just don't. Do you still have a faith practice? Are you still in any organized religion? No, but I went through a lot and I was very much into religion.

I kept reading the Bible. Always took the Bible with me and it was very religious. And I had a great minister, it was Reverend Bob Richards, who was the pole vault champion. He won two golds and bronze. So, and he would get up and speak. You thought you could do anything after you'd hear him. I, you know, from 11 to about 14 or 15,

I thought I could do anything after I heard his sermons. I mean, and I go watch him practice pole vault and hurdles and everything next to the church. I go to prayer group at high school and all that, but the more I read about it, I thought, you know what, we're really second class citizens in religion and I will not put up with that. I mean, look at the Catholic church

still won't let women be a priest or please give me a break. But yes, and my spiritual very much so, everyone has to do whatever he or she or they need to do. And I always will honor that. I wanna go back to that 1970, because I didn't tell you why we did what we did. There were three things we decided before we signed that $1 contract with the original line.

And that is that any girl born in this world is good enough would have a place to compete. Number two, that we'd be appreciated for our accomplishments, not only our looks, because like Howard Kassel only talked about my looks, my play Bobby Riggs. Can you imagine? No. It's pathetic. And the number three, obviously, to be able to make a living, because the nine of us had gone through amateur tennis when we made $14 a day. So we understood. So when Julie Fowdy comes to me for soccer, I get it.

You want conditions to be different and you've got people watching you play and you deserve to get paid. I mean, there's no question. You mentioned Title IX, and I think it's fascinating. Today is the 50-year anniversary of Title IX. And when you talk about making a living, Title IX was actually

about education. When it was written, it had nothing to do with sports. So this idea that you couldn't discriminate on the basis of sex in education. Classroom. Right. In classrooms. Before Title IX, only 3.8% of law schools were women and now it's 54%. So just in that short period of time, undergraduate and graduate classes had quotas. So the maximum number of women per class that they would let in, they had particular subjects that women were allowed to study. This not the laughter to study. This is the lawyer here. She talked about law school first. Go get them.

And women had to get higher grades to even get in. And so when we think about all of this, obviously you can't have equal employment. If you don't have equal access to education. Right. And so it's, all of this is so connected. The education, the sports, the equal pay. It's all part of this one ecosystem that we need to be fighting for. That's true. It's 37 words. So everybody can read it quickly. But in there, there's the word activity. And I talked to

Senator Birchby who was the one that got it through the Senate. It was Patsy Meek, who's a mother of Title IX from Hawaii. And then there was Dr. Bernie Sandler, Congresswoman, Edith Green from Oregon, who's known as Mrs. Education. So these four people are my sheroes and hero because, and then Senator Birchby was telling me, he goes, Billy, we didn't know what to do with the word activity.

We had it in and then we thought, well, let's just take it out. We don't need it. Then we thought, well, maybe we should just leave it as a catch all because we're probably going to forget something. Sure enough, cream puff. Sure enough cream puff. And so everyone thinks it's forth because we're so visible. That's also why we have a platform that we can help change the world to be a better place. But thank you for leaving the word activity and we would not have scholarships

to college for girls in sports. I'm pre-titled lines, so I worked two jobs at Cal State LA and thought I was living so large because I had a job, right? But down the road of peace, you know, Arthur Ash and Stan Smith, all three of us became number one. Eventually, they had full rides. They'd come back from the NCAAs. We weren't in the NCAA yet. They're just get all excited. And I said, that's great. And then I thought, are they ever going to ask me if we have anything? Never. They never asked. It's not interesting because the world revolves around them I think it's changed since then, but not a lot 50 years has gone very fast and we have to worry and think about the future the next You know 50 years we want to make sure girls all have an opportunity especially girls of color and and people who have been left

Behind transgender athletes and athletes with disabilities. It's about opportunity. It's about being able to play. Let them play. And then we've got to figure out professional opportunities for women's sports, because they can do a lot. I mean, you can't believe when you have pro teams, what they can do for the community,

what they do for the players, how they inspire kids. The real sheroes and heroes are really local. Okay, if you think about your life usually, think who you really looked at. Like, for me, it was my mom, my dad, barbred jerseys, out the ad Gibson, just inspired me or Clyde Walker from the first coach. Oh, I love that guy. Yeah, like, I'm sure if you think about the teachers you had, I had about four that made a huge difference in my life.

I'll never forget them. And one's still alive if you can believe it. Mr. Bamrek, sixth grade. Mrs. Yellen is mine. Eighth grade. Hi, Miss Yellen. Yeah. Yeah.

I still see her. She still gives me advice and cookies. That's great. And she sends us cookies. She wants me to call her Tina and I can't. Mrs. Yellen. That's great. And she sends us cookies. She wants me to call her Tina and I can't. Mrs. Yellen. I always call Mr. Bammer. Mr. Bammer. Not Richard. No way. I know. I know. I'm with you. I get it. Speaking of people who inspire you, we Abbie and I are so inspired by your love. And your whole long, long love story, I used to be married to a man who I adore and we co-parent now all three of us.

Oh, that's great. I felt so seen when I read how you discussed your marriage with Larry with such beautiful respect and love, but you also said back then when you were trying to make that marriage work, you said sometimes my head and my heart felt like they were being squeezed in a vice. And you kept saying to yourself, I can't make this right. I can't make this right. And that struck me because when I was married to Craig, I used to have this loop like, I can't make this right. And that struck me because when I was married to Craig, I used to have this loop like, I can't make this real. I can't make this real. And also, Billie Jean, when I read your description

of your sexuality, I closed the book called My Sister, read it out loud to her, took screenshots, send it to my sister. Okay, so I just want to read this out loud real quick. Because you talk about sexuality and the idea that when it comes to our sexuality sometimes the sex is the least of it So you say Sometimes sometimes the sex is still the most of it also, but it also can be the least of it Okay, unlike now there was very little talk about sexual orientation being something nuanced that resides

On a continuum and can change over the course of someone's life. I was attracted to men, but I connect with women more on an emotional level, not just a physical one. I didn't end up as a lesbian because of sex alone. It was a whole constellation of feelings that had to do with connectedness and tenderness. Sometimes the sex is the least of it. Can you talk to us because you talk to coming to terms with connectedness and tenderness. Sometimes the sex is the least of it. Can you talk to us because you talk to coming to terms with your sexuality as one of the hardest battles of your entire life? So can you talk to us about the reality of being you in that era that was so dangerously homophobic and that living your truth really could mean the end of your career? What was that like? It was scariest. And I also had people on the tour telling me not to talk about it.

We're not going to have a tour. A tour, that means everybody, right? That's not just about me. I just couldn't get a handle. I mean, I couldn't get clear. I couldn't get clarity. Did you have trouble getting clarity? I felt pretty clear after I met Abby.

I felt pretty damn clear when I met. When I started going on, it was no problem. You said one of the hardest parts was realizing that you were 51 years old and tiptoeing around your parents, trying not to upset your dad or disappoint your mom because all your life you wanted to be a good girl. The good girl. Yeah, I always try to be the good girl. That's who I am. Boring. Oh, green.

But that's what was unclear to me. Like, how do I get, I'm clear I want Abby. I'm clear this is the realest thing I've ever experienced. But how do I let go of being a good girl so I can have this? How did you do that? By going to Renfrew, I had an eating disorder as well, which is pretty indicative of something. It's not quite right. Same. I loved to binge eat. I don't purge.

When I went to Renfrew, I was, stayed there. It was in Philadelphia and I stayed there for what, five to six weeks. And you live 24, seven with therapist and other people having eating disorders, which is, you know, it's a disorder of distortion. But just going through three times a week, individual therapy, couples therapy, family therapy, it was exhausting, but it finally just broke down those walls that I've been trying to

hold up for so long to be the good girl and just say, who am I, what's my authentic self? That's everything. Because once you figure out who you are and your be your authentic self, life gets so much better. You stopped to tell as you said, and my parents had to come to terms.

They came to Renfrew after I pleaded and pleaded for them to come and we had therapy. And they finally figured it out. And then my mother finally, finally said, oh, here's so much happier with Lonna. And I'm like, yes, that's it, mom. She says, I still don't understand though. And I said, I understand that you don't understand your generation. I get it. And when even when she

passed, you probably didn't get it, but she knew I was all right. She knew I was happy and safe. Billie, do you think that you're eating disorder? Because I have suffered from anemia disorder also my whole life. When I was reading your book, I was like, Oh my God, it just felt so, I mean, the married to a man that coming to terms of sexuality, the eating disorder, the good girl parents thing. I just, I get a bite.

And the responsibility of the entire tennis world kind of feeling like it was on her shoulders. Yes, and then you saying when you walked into Renfrow, knowing that that was the moment of truth free. You said, if I crossed this threshold, this is my moment of truth. So how did you know, like what was it about your eating disorder that made you know if you dealt with that, you'd finally have to live your truth.

How is the eating disorder tied to good girl tied to sexuality? I've been to therapists before it went to Renfrew. I finally said to my therapist, don't you think I should go to an eating disorder place? And she said yes, I think you should. See, that's a great therapist because a great therapist gets the person there. They don't tell think I should go to an eating disorder place? And she said, yes, I think you should. See, that's a great therapist. Because a great therapist gets the person there. They don't tell you, you get yourself there and then you tell yourself, I should go. And to hear they're okay, it always helps a little.

But I knew I needed to go. I needed to do something. My tennis career was over. I've been outed. This is like 14 years later. I'm still trying to figure things out. And and when I went to Renfrew it just first of all it makes you live 24-7 focusing on the task at hand and that is who am I and am I going to start living as an authentic self. Am I going to stop this? Am I going to die before I actually

live it? And I just thought I got to do this. And also, it's really important because you know how uncomfortable we get. And I know I have and other people have talked to me about it. But it's really important to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You can do it through alcohol. You can do it through alcohol, you can do it with drugs, you can do it with food that numbs us just like the others. That's my choice to numb myself. What am I doing? I'm numbing my pain. It's all about numbing our pain, isn't it? I mean, I think it is. So how do I get through this and start being myself? And I'm going to live a much better life and also a better life with Launa. I mean it's not fair to your to my partner my love not to be the best

I can be. So not going on there but it boy it worked and I still talk to my therapist that I had at Renfrew. So I don't have to go through my family history she knows exactly where I'm at. I try to do that at least once a week. I still, I thank you psychotherapists out there. Thank you for saving my life. I feel that. Me too. It's their good.

It's their good. I think it's important to just understand to you did this work in the 80s, 90s, 2000s. And you had an actual impact on so many of us women athletes who had a little bit of fear, you know, I was never technically in the closet with my friends and family, but I really was in the closet with my companies that I was doing business with. And so you just doing this work and having the foresight or the understanding, like, I have to go and figure out myself first.

Like the pain of you doing that laid a foundation for so many of us gay athletes to walk in a way that we felt less ashamed, we felt less internalized homophobia that we felt more capable of like actually being proud of our gayness, right? And I think that I just want to just acknowledge that your hard work paid off dividends and is continuing to pay dividends to those future generations. Well, I noticed that more athletes are coming out now and that's what makes me happy that all I went through and just think about the generations before me. And that's what I always thought.

I always think, how did they ever get through each day? And even couples who are older, most of them have passed now, but let's say they were in their 80s or say, if you go to dinner with them, they wouldn't talk about it. They don't, they talk about like, you know, they're living together and all that, but they wouldn't talk about it.

And it's such, it was such a habit to measure. Oh, it's exhausting. I mean, Pride Month, every company in the world has their pride, authors and athletes. But when you were outed in 81, you were close to retirement. You had built up all your endorsements, you wanted to retire and rest on those hard one laurels. And finally makes the money too.

Finally makes the money. And in 24 hours, you lost every single one of your endorsements. You're right, all of them. And they'd call the names, they'd call, I should have saved these letters I got. They called me slut. They just said horrible things to me. And I thought, oh, thank God the tennis tours on its way.

I don't have to worry about that anymore. And then just, you know, I had to go take care of me by then. It was terrible. It is terrible because it's shame-based anyway. Oh, this is just like throwing layers and layers more of shame. And I knew that was unhealthy.

I knew I had to get rid of it somehow, I get through it. And you've got to go through it with pain. You cannot go around it under it, over it. You've got to go through it. And see, only way that I knew I would get healthy and be truthful and be my authentic self. And to go through the pain is just in a daily 24, 7 weight. And so many people go through this. And so many people are afraid to go through the pain is just in a daily 24, seven way. And so many people go through this

and so many people are afraid to go through it. So anybody out there if you're afraid to go through it, please get some help. But make sure you can trust them though. Yes. That's the hard thing to decide who's trustworthy to. That's right. And you do find out who your real friends are though.

The one thing going through being outed and telling the truth was you find out who your true friends are and there's nothing like that point. Some that I thought would be my friends did not end up being my friend and I thought wow. So who surprised you by being your friend? This was official, I thought he would just go away. Jerry, and I thought he would go away. He absolutely opposite. Got right in there, believed in me.

You find out which players. You really find out what players. Chris Everett was fantastic, unbelievable. I hope everybody knows her name. She's one of the all-time grades. Absolutely. She and Martina and I were to low at Martinez Gate and Martina came out to be at Wembleman right after the lawsuit. She said, I'm going to get out of this guy, you know, the New York guy and I said, well, if you're up to it, if you're comfortable enough in your own skin, you need to control the messaging and you need to

just come out. If you can, but she was also scared because she was stateless at the moment. So she did come out though, but soon she wasn't stateless anywhere. She was a US citizen, but she came out. So I was out and she came out. There's difference. So. I love the surprise though. I agree. I had a time where it wasn't that public, but I went through a public thing and felt very abandoned. And I have a list of the six people during that time when I was at my lowest and everybody was running away who really showed up and checked on me and they were all surprises. They were? Yeah, but I'm telling you, if those people, I would die for those people, those six people, like, for the rest of the time.

I totally get that. When you're down, totally. Those are the writer dies. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's who you want on your team. That's right. We can make this through anything. That's right. And that's what you want in the team. You want to go, you know, we're going to play for each other. We're like, when? And we're going to do it in the right, you know, with character. And we're going to just give it everything we got. I mean, that's why Abby played. Yes, she did. Oh, my God. I loved it.

Eeeh. And that's what kind of person I want on my team. And what you went through and learning about your six friends, I mean, those people, yeah, like you said, you'll go to the end of the earth for them. I totally get it. I have a question about how you were using food to numb. Post retirement when you had to figure things out. But surely as you were playing that same kind of turmoil and conflict was there. So what were you using to numb? Was competition numbing? Yes, I think goals were numbing. Like if I wanted to win a tournament or be number one in the world,

or if I made a goal, I would eat right, I would do everything I could. But soon as the tennis was gone though, whoa, now what? Mm-hmm. And so boy, was I binging. Ooh, so bad. But soon as the tennis was gone though, whoa, now what? And so boy, was I binging. Oh, so bad. Today, of course, I wake up every morning.

I wake up every morning so I have an eating disorder. I always have one. I have that brain and the way everything works and I understand it. Don't have to like it, but I get it. And the most important thing is to admit it and to be centered with it. What are your strategies now? Because you still have a ink sword. You still have pain. Everybody has pain. What do you do now? What's how do you what do you replace Benjing with? I think I'm not afraid to think about it. Nowadays, I would have played games, you know, around it, over it, not through it.

Now I think I've forced myself to kind of, okay, I'm going to get centered, I'm going to go through this. I have to, I'm never going to get over a needing disorder. I'm always going to have it. It's okay. That's who I am. I make myself slow down. It's like anger management. Now it's asked you to count to 10 before you start hitting somebody. You notice people with anger issues. I mean they just get angry so quickly and they do want to hit somebody almost. So if you can just count to 10 or they count to 20 if you have to just get your breathing under control. Just calm down and I try to do the same thing. I love meditation helps me. You know, and on my watch, I've got my, you know,

minute, if I want to meditate, and I'll just take a minute or a minute and a half and just, okay, get centered, just breathe, just do whatever I have to do to get centered again. So is it perfect, never? No one's perfect. Billy, so we're both investors of the Angel City soccer club. Yes, we are. Angel City FC. We three. Yeah, three.

So we're all investors. And the first game standing in front of a sold out crowd at the opener, you were there, we were there. It was great. And even though we were surrounded by the most iconic women soccer players, all time and some famous other people. You mean like me a hamper?

Yeah. Oh yeah, I think so. It was incredible. Everybody wanted to be near you. Me, like me a ham for instance. Oh, yeah, I think so. It was incredible. Everybody wanted to be near you. Everybody was like, this does not happen without Billy. Can I get, do you think I could get a picture with Billy? They kept saying, like, everybody there knew that you were the one. You're the one that fought to lay the path so that we could build this thing.

I don't know how you have sustained the stamina that you have. And I want to ask you, what is our thing? The priority of the generation that is our moral obligation to fight for our daughters in the next generation, even if we never see the fruits in our lifetime. For me, you have thought, I want you to rest. like that is kind of what I want I want you to Take put us in college. What do you want us to do? We are the next generation What is our thing that we can go out into the world doing first all I got to know yourself What do you want to do? How would you like to contribute? If you, first you have to want to contribute, secondly, what and how.

And then really think about it, because you need to also love the fact you're doing it. You can't just go do it. Yeah, I mean, I made a promise. You gotta come with your total self if you want to do this. And you may not want to do it. But if you do, which I hope you do, that you'll decide what would give you satisfaction,

because I love it. Like, I loved it, like in 96 the Olympics, was when you knew that Title IX had started to take effect because the US women teamed, whether it was basketball, softball, soccer, we were winning the gold. Even in tennis, when I was the captain, I was the captain. tennis was never in the Olympics.

So it's closest I got to it was being the coach or captain they call it. And I had a great time because we won everything. So I loved that we won, but it was the other sports. I went to the basketball 34,000 people. Soccer has 76,000 people. Why? Because I knew it was Title IX. I got such a thrill out of this.

The other people, they didn't really think about it, except a few of us. We go, can you believe it? Title IX is finally kicking in, kicking ass. Look what happened from 1970 with nine of us. And now we got almost 2,000 women playing. So you have to decide what's going to make you tick, what's going to make you happy. Because not everyone's meant to do what I did. I just love it. I mean, we're trying to help hockey right now. We have a, they had meetings

today about getting a new league start with hockey. I mean, it may or may not happen, but we're going through the due diligence. It's a lot of work. I just love it I mean soccer should be the biggest sport in the world. It is with men and at least men are having teams now I mean, Barcelona women had what nine over 90,000. I think they beat the record at the Rose Bowl Which I hate to bring up because I thought that was such a great day. Yeah, but records are meant to be broken So they are I think they're record of 90 million watching battle of the sexes is a pretty. That top.

Is it? Yeah, well, super balls get more than that. So we had a hundred, we had a hundred and 17,000 watched the Super Bowl for the men this year. I'd like that we need to watch the women. Why not? I do love Billie Jean King's Why Not? That could be your next. But why? Yeah, why not? I do love Billie Jean King's Why Not. That could be your next, Benoit.

Yeah, why not? Why not? Why they hold that? Billie Jean, we are so unbelievably grateful for you in the world. Billie Jean King, little things that we could take away. Number one, the goals can be numbing. That's why everyone fricks out after something big happens

because of the goals are not made. Let's go eat, right? Or drink. Or drink. Drink, eat. When you're going to a game, right? We don't drink alcohol. A lot of me.

We don't eat food. We don't need that. Foods all we have left, really? No, we don't drink. We're all sober here. You're drinking all. Are you? Yep.

Did you have to work out if though you did, right? Yes. Yeah, I'm six years sober. Glendans almost 20. Wow. And at though you did, right? Yes. Yeah, I'm six years sober, Glendon's almost 20, and I think you're two now. Yeah. So great. That's great.

But I, last time I saw you, Abby, before these last few times, you were getting out of a car a long and I were with you, and I could tell then you were unhappy. I was feeling so bad for you. You were sitting to my left, a lot of us to my right, I was in the middle, and we were taking you, I think, to your car, maybe.

I could tell you it's such pain though, and I didn't know you well enough to say anything. Yeah, I was at the end of my career, I just retired and I was struggling with alcohol and prescription drugs, but I got sober shortly thereafter and then luckily I got to meet Glenin and start a whole different life, right? Because like you used food to numb, I was using booze to numb the transition of my retirement. It was, it was scary because I didn't make enough money as a woman professional soccer player. And I realized then that I was only comparing myself

to other women athletes. And I think that this was a really big ah-hat moment for me. And I think something you've been trying to tell us all along. You know, why not get the same amount as the guys, right? Like why not compare yourself to them? So yeah, I was going through it for sure. But now I'm sober and I can't believe you saw her and felt that sadness.

Yeah, that was a weird time. I was like, really, I said to Lana and I always thought about it. I always brought it up, but I knew that you were getting better because then I saw you getting later and I think she's okay now. You can tell by someone's face and expression, it's really rough. I kind of kept tracking you through others too, like I'd ask is she okay? And I said, yeah, she's doing great now. I go, yeah.

Can I ask a last question? Because as someone who is as had a life as prolific and impactful and frankly, just really audaciously ambitious. Audaciously. I heard it a really where you said, I love life. just really audaciously ambitious. Audaciously. I heard it a really where you said, I love life. I've always been excited about life. Ever since I was a baby, I've loved life.

That's true. The engine that fuels this audacity. Where does that zest come from? That love of life. And how do you rekindle it? You've been through so many hard things. Like how do you rekindle that love of life that fuels all of this? Well, I think I got really lucky with my parents. They really loved each other

but I was like that from the time I was born and I just I told my mom at seven mommy mommy. I've do something great with my life. I just feel it and she goes That's fine honey, but just dry those dishes. She always kept my brother me very grounded. But we're the ones that push my parents. We just were so motivated. We love what we do. I mean, I love the ball. Throw me the ball. If I see a ball, I just get all excited. I was, you know, like my brother and I was our third word we ever learned. And I just had all these dreams. And I just get all excited. I was, you know, like, my brother and I was our third word we ever learned. And I just had all these dreams. And I just, I just knew and I kept looking

and it was so obvious once I played tennis. I just went, this is it. I can hit 100 balls in five minutes. I love hitting a tennis ball. There's nothing like it for me. Oh, it's so much fun. I thought about all the things you can do because of it. My dad, it was really a great life coach.

I mean, he's the one that told me when I was 12, he said, do you really wanna do this? I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you know there's a lot of heartache if you make it to the top and something? Now, how did he, my dad know all this? But my brother and I just, oh, we were terrible. We just forced them.

We had, please take us to the court to play the ball game. Oh, oh, we're like, we couldn terrible. We just forced them. We had, please take us to the courts, play us to the ball game. Oh, oh, we're like, we couldn't get enough. And they didn't care for any good. And that is magical. They never said did you win. Not once did you win. We told him, I won. I lost.

I can't believe I lost. I played so bad. My dad said, did you try your best? Well, of course I try my best. Good enough. Okay. Billie Jean King says to all of you pod squatters. Yeah, but you're next right thing.

We do not ask if they won. That's what you say. Did you have fun? Did you try your best? Isn't that what your parents would say to you? Did you have fun? Did you try your best? They'd go how once it,

so they make, they allow us to express ourselves. I learned that because one time I said to one of our kids, I said, oh, rough game, because I thought she played horrible. And she said, I thought I was great. So that's how I learned not to guess. Self-perception's different. They'll tell you, man, they'll just, kids are great.

I go, how'd it go? They go, I tell you are great. I go, how'd it go? They tell you. I say, how does it go? And she's, I was amazing. And I'd say, you should just say great. You could say not should, could. Yeah. Shoulds of judgment, coulds better work.

Billie Jean, thank you for coming and joining us and all the work that you have done. I really don't think you need to do anymore if you don't want to. So you get to choose to retire. But thank you for everything you've done for women's soccer. She'll never retire. Look at that lady. She's never retired. She loves life. She was a baby. She loves life. I'm buzzed. We love you. I want these different women's sports sports to happen and I want women to ask for what they want need and I want men and all of us I want all of us to be feminist basically. Let's go. We're all feminist. Let's go Let's go You guys are great. Thank you. You got a great show. Everyone just raves about your show by the way. Thank you

Well, you've just made it even better Anyway, thank you so much. Thank you. I hope we get to see each other soon. Me too. Maybe the angel city game. I don't know. Wonderful. Next time I'll actually ask for a picture with you. This last time, I just see. We got one. I know. But before you did that, I was just sidelining up to you, asking people to take secret pictures of me. Now I saw you. I saw you. I saw you. I saw you. I saw you. I saw you. I said, Launa, we got to get a photo with them. Take Mercy on her.

She's embarrassing herself. No, she's wanted. I like the fact she wanted a photo though. I thought that was cool. Thank you so much, Billy Chan. We love you, Launa. We love you. We love you so much.

I love you guys. I love you. See you next time, Pod Squadders. Bye. Yeah. Oh, so good. You can't believe she saw my taking so good pictures. So good.

Of course, I saw you. So good. Of course, I saw you. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast

if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine. you